I gotta ask this question- WTF is so great about hybrids? What's so wrong with diesels? they do the same thing the hybrid does- and they're also cheeper to build so why not just build more clean burning McDonalds grease diesels? A Durango hybrid? Who the hell is going to buy that?
The same people will buy it who are going to buy the Yukon, Tahoe, and Escalade hybrids.
Hybrids are the current fad?
Dodge lacks a suitable diesel engine to fit in the Durango right now? I'm pretty sure the 6.7 Cummins in the Ram is far too large.
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on November 04, 2007, 08:39:07 AM
Hybrids are the current fad?
Dodge lacks a suitable diesel engine to fit in the Durango right now? I'm pretty sure the 6.7 Cummins in the Ram is far too large.
The Cummins will fit just fine, but it's overkill. The reason people won't buy it is because diesels don't appear to be "green" even though they are.
I think hybrids are marketed wrongly and people fall for that BS. Here in Europe Lexus for example markets their hybrids as "fuel efficient car" - without telling the consumer that once you leave the city, you loose all efficiency benefits since the gasoline engine will take over for most of the driving. Moving an overweight car around won't give you good fuel economy...
If you actually want the best of both worlds, a diesel-hybrid makes more sense. Let the electric engine do the work in the city and the the efficient diesel engine outside of the urban environment.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 04, 2007, 08:56:35 AM
I think hybrids are marketed wrongly and people fall for that BS. Here in Europe Lexus for example markets their hybrids as "fuel efficient car" - without telling the consumer that once you leave the city, you loose all efficiency benefits since the gasoline engine will take over for most of the driving. Moving an overweight car around won't give you good fuel economy...
If you actually want the best of both worlds, a diesel-hybrid makes more sense. Let the electric engine do the work in the city and the the efficient diesel engine outside of the urban environment.
That's a good idea, but it's combining two expensive technologies (diesel + electric assist). Cheaper to pick one or the other
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on November 04, 2007, 09:07:08 AM
That's a good idea, but it's combining two expensive technologies (diesel + electric assist). Cheaper to pick one or the other
It's expensive, but it will ultimately be greener than a similar with a thirsty (and overpowered) gasoline engine. But yeah, give me a diesel anyday because you get the best of both worlds. :ohyeah:
This isn't a bash against a Lexus, but what do they market their hybrids as in the US? I hear two sides: 'green cars' and 'performance cars'. I mean WTF!? Green? :lol:
Who will buy it? Virtually no one. People in the market for $40,000+ vehicles really don't care about fuel mileage. The scant few that are will gravitate toward inherently more fuel efficient vehicles that offer 90+% of the utility of a full-size SUV; such as mini-vans and large(r) cross-overs (Highlander, Acadia, CX-9, etc.).
Diesels are simply too expensive - the current crop of light truck diesel command about a $7,000 premimum. Unless you're doing heavy towing for 20, 30, or 40,000+ miles a year, you'll never recover this initial investment. And by the time Detroit develops a diesel a lot cheaper than the current $7,000 premium, it'll be gutless.
Because many Americans just don't like Diesel.
And Diesel cost more than regular gas.
Also note that getting a diesel to meet emissions in the US is much harder and costlier than getting a gas/electric hybrid to meet emissions.
One way they're selling Hybrids now is to offer them as the "top of the range" on the line. For example, one reason my parents got me the Camry Hybrid is because it comes with all of the options of the XLE model (Smart Key, Auto Climate Control, Premium Stereo, etc) at a price difference of about $5,000.
Quote from: Onslaught on November 04, 2007, 10:31:58 AM
Because many Americans just don't like Diesel.
And Diesel cost more than regular gas.
Sometimes it does sometimes it don't-
According to detroitgasprices.com today at
11:45 Speedway in Woodhaven - diesel - $2.49
07:38 Meijer in Madison Heights - reg unleaded- $2.95
The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 10:35:50 AM
Also note that getting a diesel to meet emissions in the US is much harder and costlier than getting a gas/electric hybrid to meet emissions.
I'm wondering what about the fast food grease diesel? Don't we make enough of that shit everyday to more than make enough diesel for SUV's? ;How hard is it to make it usable in cars?
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 10:55:32 AM
The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel.
Where the hell do you live? All gas stations around here sell diesel.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 10:55:39 AM
I'm wondering what about the fast food grease diesel? Don't we make enough of that shit everyday to more than make enough diesel for SUV's? ;How hard is it to make it usable in cars?
I don't think that's diesel. There are kits that you can get to make your gasoline engine turn into a vegetable oil engine but i didn't know they made those for diesel engines.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 10:56:35 AM
I don't think that's diesel. There are kits that you can get to make your gasoline engine turn into a vegetable oil engine but i didn't know they made those for diesel engines.
I didn't know that. I thought there were some guys out there running it in diesels but I guess it hasd to have been gas ones. Thanks.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 10:56:35 AM
I don't think that's diesel. There are kits that you can get to make your gasoline engine turn into a vegetable oil engine but i didn't know they made those for diesel engines.
I think that's only been done with VW diesels, but I may be wrong. :huh:
But you know- my wifes 07 Durango with thte multi displacement hting gets about 16-17 in town and about 22 on the highway at about 72. That hybrid Tahoe hardly does much better than that in town and no better on the highway- wheres the savings?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 10:58:11 AM
I didn't know that. I thought there were some guys out there running it in diesels but I guess it hasd to have been gas ones. Thanks.
Oops, I just looked it up. You were right:
"The Greasecar Vegetable Oil Conversion System is an auxiliary fuel modification system that allows all diesel vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil in any climate. Your Greasecar kit comes with everything you need to convert your diesel vehicle to run on vegetable oil."
greasecar.com
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
But you know- my wifes 07 Durango with thte multi displacement hting gets about 16-17 in town and about 22 on the highway at about 72. That hybrid Tahoe hardly does much better than that in town and no better on the highway- wheres the savings?
I think that's a very mild hybrid, not like the Prius.
The only advantage is that you can run appliances off the electric motor.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 11:00:12 AM
Oops, I just looked it up. You were right:
"The Greasecar Vegetable Oil Conversion System is an auxiliary fuel modification system that allows all diesel vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil in any climate. Your Greasecar kit comes with everything you need to convert your diesel vehicle to run on vegetable oil."
greasecar.com
Holy crap- I was right! Mark that down! I'm usually wrong about this stuff!
That's right- don't fuckin mess with me~! :rockon:
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:01:42 AM
Holy crap- I was right! Mark that down! I'm usually wrong about this stuff!
That's right- don't fuckin mess with me~! :rockon:
:lol:
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 10:56:35 AM
I don't think that's diesel. There are kits that you can get to make your gasoline engine turn into a vegetable oil engine but i didn't know they made those for diesel engines.
Other way around. The vegetable oil kits are for diesel cars (old diesel Mercedes are very popular choices for this conversion), not gasoline. In fact, there was a story on CNN or one of the other major news networks about a company in California that offers these conversion kits.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 10:59:53 AM
But you know- my wifes 07 Durango with thte multi displacement hting gets about 16-17 in town and about 22 on the highway at about 72. That hybrid Tahoe hardly does much better than that in town and no better on the highway- wheres the savings?
Apples to oranges. EPA test results of one vehicle versus however you drive another doesn't make a valid comparison. There is a clear savings, comparing the same model of vehicle tested the same way, in gas versus hybrid Tahoe.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 11:01:03 AM
I think that's a very mild hybrid, not like the Prius.
The only advantage is that you can run appliances off the electric motor.
Mild?
What's the difference between them?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:03:17 AM
Mild?
What's the difference between them?
I'm not sure but the gasoline engine is always running in the Tahoe i think. The electric motor just helps it save a bit of gas and helps with acceleration.
The Prius turns off the engine during braking and acceleration up to a point.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 11:05:06 AM
I'm not sure but the gasoline engine is always running in the Tahoe i think. The electric motor just helps it save a bit of gas and helps with acceleration.
The Prius turns off the engine during braking and acceleration up to a point.
Got it. Every little bit helps- that tahoe probably weighs too much to just run it off batteries.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:03:17 AM
Mild?
What's the difference between them?
A mild hybrid, like the Honda Civic Hybrid or the "performance" hybrids, uses an electric motor to supplement the gas motor in acceleration. In the Civic, this lets it get away with having a smaller gas engine than the conventional version (1.3-liter vs 1.8 liter) without losing much power, and in the performance hybrids that use the same size engine as a mainstream version, this lets acceleration increase without hurting gas mileage.
A full hybrid, like the Prius or Ford Escape, can run electric-only at low speeds, rather than just using the electric motor to provide a bit of an extra boost sometimes.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 11:02:10 AM
Other way around. The vegetable oil kits are for diesel cars (old diesel Mercedes are very popular choices for this conversion), not gasoline. In fact, there was a story on CNN or one of the other major news networks about a company in California that offers these conversion kits.
Ok- so I know enough about this to know that the gasoline gives more blah blah blah to make more of it's energy- but wouldn't using vegetable oil be better than using gas all the way aroud-and wouldn't it be alot cheaper too? I mean it shoul dnever run out right?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:06:25 AM
Got it. Every little bit helps- that tahoe probably weighs too much to just run it off batteries.
But tbe extra cost isn't worth the savings though. That's why the Accord hybrid flopped.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 10:55:39 AM
I'm wondering what about the fast food grease diesel? Don't we make enough of that shit everyday to more than make enough diesel for SUV's? ;How hard is it to make it usable in cars?
It's not a commercially available fuel, so carmakers don't build vehicles to run on it. Carmakers need to make vehicles that meet emissions regs on the fuels that are commercially available in the US market.
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 11:06:58 AM
A mild hybrid, like the Honda Civic Hybrid or the "performance" hybrids, uses an electric motor to supplement the gas motor in acceleration. In the Civic, this lets it get away with having a smaller gas engine than the conventional version (1.3-liter vs 1.8 liter) without losing much power, and in the performance hybrids that use the same size engine as a mainstream version, this lets acceleration increase without hurting gas mileage.
A full hybrid, like the Prius or Ford Escape, can run electric-only at low speeds, rather than just using the electric motor to provide a bit of an extra boost sometimes.
Good explenation.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 10:59:15 AM
I think that's only been done with VW diesels, but I may be wrong. :huh:
Older Mercedes diesels too, but yeah, mostly VW ones.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 11:09:42 AM
It's not a commercially available fuel, so carmakers don't build vehicles to run on it. Carmakers need to make vehicles that meet emissions regs on the fuels that are commercially available in the US market.
But doesn't the grease burn almost or compeltely clean? I mean if that's the case how hard would it be to make it work and build engines for it? I'm not trying to sound stupid I just don't get it- we hav technology to make us way less reliant on oil but we're not taking any advantage of it?
Quote from: CALL_911 on November 04, 2007, 11:11:18 AM
Older Mercedes diesels too, but yeah, mostly VW ones.
And Ford powerstrokes too.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:08:25 AM
Ok- so I know enough about this to know that the gasoline gives more blah blah blah to make more of it's energy- but wouldn't using vegetable oil be better than using gas all the way aroud-and wouldn't it be alot cheaper too? I mean it shoul dnever run out right?
I don't know if the US has enough farming capacity to grow enough to both feed the population and provide a fuel source. And if we did, you can count on the cost of produce going up as a large chunk of farming capacity went to fuel production. So instead of seeing the price hikes at the pump, you'll see them at the grocery store instead.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 11:17:01 AM
I don't know if the US has enough farming capacity to grow enough to both feed the population and provide a fuel source. And if we did, you can count on the cost of produce going up as a large chunk of farming capacity went to fuel production. So instead of seeing the price hikes at the pump, you'll see them at the grocery store instead.
So explain to me why prices would go up at the stores if we're using McDonalds and Burger King oils?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:12:52 AM
But doesn't the grease burn almost or compeltely clean? I mean if that's the case how hard would it be to make it work and build engines for it? I'm not trying to sound stupid I just don't get it- we hav technology to make us way less reliant on oil but we're not taking any advantage of it?
Define "clean". Vegetable oil is still a hydrocarbon fuel and still produces CO2 as a product of combustion.
And it's not hard at all to make an engine run on vegetable oil. The problem lies in that vegetable oil is not currently considered a fuel source. You can't roll up to your local gas station and get it out of the pumps there. The first step is recognizing it as a fuel and making it commercially available as such over a fairly wide region. You need an infrastructure. Once the infrastructure is there, then manufacturers will start making vehicles that can run on it out of the box.
Of course, it's not nearly that simple. There are many many variables that come into play. Energy cost balance, impact on other industries, the aforementioned agricultural capacity issues... I'm not really an expert on the matter, so I doubt I've even skimmed the surface.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 10:55:32 AM
The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel.
Are you high? I've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 11:38:28 AM
Are you high? I've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel.
Really? Are you in a more rural or generally truck-dense area?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 11:26:25 AM
So explain to me why prices would go up at the stores if we're using McDonalds and Burger King oils?
Do you really think waste grease from restaurants is significant enough in quantity to replace gasoline, or even just diesel fuel, entirely in this country? Far from it. Based on what I've read, annual cooking grease/oil consumption in this country is only about 5% of the fuel consumption.
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 11:39:40 AM
Really? Are you in a more rural or generally truck-dense area?
I live in a pretty rural area and I'd say only 2/3 of the stations have diesel, and those that offer it only have one or two pumps versus a minimum of 8 for gasoline.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 11:38:28 AM
Are you high? I've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel.
Maybe because you live out in the middle of nowhere. There are 4-5 gas stations near my house that doesn't sell diesel, and I don't want to go out of my way to fill up the car.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 11:45:44 AM
I live in a pretty rural area and I'd say only 2/3 of the stations have diesel, and those that offer it only have one or two pumps versus a minimum of 8 for gasoline.
I'd say maybe 1/3 do in suburban MD, if that, and I almost never see a station anywhere with lots of diesel pumps that wasn't a truck stop.
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 11:39:40 AM
Really? Are you in a more rural or generally truck-dense area?
Does it matter?
I've never seen a station west of the Mississippi that didn't have a diesel pump (although I guess there's some in Cali, according to Rags). It doesn't matter if I'm in the middle-of-nowhere, WY, or downtown Denver, Pheonix, or Albequerque - whatever. They all have diesel pumps.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
Does it matter?
I've never seen a station west of the Mississippi that didn't have a diesel pump (although I guess there's some in Cali, according to Rags). It doesn't matter if I'm in the middle-of-nowhere, WY, or downtown Denver, Pheonix, or Albequerque - whatever. They all have diesel pumps.
I will take a pic of my local gas station just to show you that you are wrong.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:14:07 PM
I will take a pic of my local gas station just to show you that you are wrong.
Yea- and you'll probably only take pics of areas where there arent' any diesel pumps to try to "proove" your point. I've seen it a million times. Bastard.
:lol:
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:14:07 PM
I will take a pic of my local gas station just to show you that you are wrong.
I'm wrong? How? How the hell are you going to prove that
I haven't seen a gas station without a diesel pump? Do you have some magic tricks up your sleeve or something?
I believe that your local stations don't carry diesel, but I've been in every state west of the Mississippi except for Oregon, and I've seen diesel gas all over the place. If anyone's wrong, it's you, for saying
"The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel."In fact there are tons of gas stations all across the country which sell it. It's not like hydrogen fuel for Pete's sake; it's all over the place.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
Does it matter?
I've never seen a station west of the Mississippi that didn't have a diesel pump (although I guess there's some in Cali, according to Rags). It doesn't matter if I'm in the middle-of-nowhere, WY, or downtown Denver, Pheonix, or Albequerque - whatever. They all have diesel pumps.
I just did a search on Exxon.com of all stations within 300 miles of Denver (the largest radius it allows). It came out to 42 stations. Then I limited the search to stations with diesel. Down to 28.
Feel free to experiment with other brands/locations.
I want more hybrid sports cars. Hybrid for going fast, not saving gas.
Quote from: NACar on November 04, 2007, 12:27:46 PM
I want more hybrid sports cars. Hybrid for going fast, not saving gas.
Your car is already z0mg so fast. 'st33m ftw!
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 12:28:25 PM
Your car is already z0mg so fast. 'st33m ftw!
The 'st33m has 0hp right now. The 'sc0rt is my current DD.
Quote from: NACar on November 04, 2007, 12:29:39 PM
The 'st33m has 0hp right now. The 'sc0rt is my current DD.
Why 0hp!?
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:23:40 PM
I'm wrong? How? How the hell are you going to prove that I haven't seen a gas station without a diesel pump? Do you have some magic tricks up your sleeve or something?
I believe that your local stations don't carry diesel, but I've been in every state west of the Mississippi except for Oregon, and I've seen diesel gas all over the place. If anyone's wrong, it's you, for saying
"The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel."
In fact there are tons of gas stations all across the country which sell it. It's not like hydrogen fuel for Pete's sake; it's all over the place.
They're really rare here. And you're wrong for saying that you've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel, so me posting a pic of on that doesn't sell diesel would prove you wrong.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:31:46 PM
They're really rare here. And you're wrong for saying that you've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel, so me posting a pic of on that doesn't sell diesel would prove you wrong.
He says he's never seen one. You posting a pic would just be, a pic. He hasn't seen that specific station, has he?
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 12:27:07 PM
I just did a search on Exxon.com of all stations within 300 miles of Denver (the largest radius it allows). It came out to 42 stations. Then I limited the search to stations with diesel. Down to 28.
Feel free to experiment with other brands/locations.
there's six Exxon station that sells diesel within 100 miles of my house.
The closest one is 47.6 miles away. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:35:12 PM
there's six Exxon station that sells diesel within 100 miles of my house.
The closest one is 47.6 miles away. :rolleyes:
Only exxon stations are in your area? Some kind of local ordinance?
:lol:
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 12:33:12 PM
He says he's never seen one. You posting a pic would just be, a pic. He hasn't seen that specific station, has he?
He said he never saw one, and he asked if i was high, so i'm just proving that there aren't many stations in california that sell diesel fuel.
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 12:27:07 PM
I just did a search on Exxon.com of all stations within 300 miles of Denver (the largest radius it allows). It came out to 42 stations. Then I limited the search to stations with diesel. Down to 28.
Feel free to experiment with other brands/locations.
54 stations within 100 miles of Phoenix, 28 with diesel (just over 50%)
I checked my region and a 100 mile radius around it (which basically covers all of upstate NY). 286 stations, 140 with diesel (less than 50%). Tighten the search to be a bit more local (25 miles) and I get 15 stations, 10 with diesel, which lines up with the 2/3 I estimated based on casual observation.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:31:46 PM
And you're wrong for saying that you've never seen a gas station in America that doesn't sell diesel, so me posting a pic of on that doesn't sell diesel would prove you wrong.
You need to learn more about rhetoric and debate. There's no way you, not knowing or having spent time with me, can prove that
I haven't seen a diesel-less gas station. It's simply not possible.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:40:20 PM
You need to learn more about rhetoric and debate. There's no way you, not knowing or having spent time with me, can prove that I haven't seen a diesel-less gas station. It's simply not possible.
So how am I wrong for saying that the reason I wouldn't get a diesel is because no stations near me sell it?
Am I missing something here?
So diesel is neither at every pump nor is it completely absent from a given area. Sounds like the most someone would have to do is simply drive to the next gas station if the one they're at doesn't carry it. :rolleyes:
Damn! That stuff is more rare than diamonds! :devil:
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:43:34 PM
So diesel is neither at every pump nor is it completely absent from a given area. Sounds like the most someone would have to do is simply drive to the next gas station if the one they're at doesn't carry it. :rolleyes:
Damn! That stuff is more rare than diamonds! :devil:
Exxon says that the nearest diesel station is 47.6 miles away. :rolleyes:
I'm not driving all the way over there to get it. :rolleyes:
And because of California's stricter emissions laws we don't get lots of diesels here anyways. That's why we didn't get the E320 CDI.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:41:50 PM
So how am I wrong for saying that the reason I wouldn't get a diesel is because no stations near me sell it?
Am I missing something here?
I never said you were wrong. But the availability of diesel fuel isn't what's preventing Americans from buying them. That simply isn't a problem.
Within 300 miles of Detroit there are 1966 stations with 994 of them having diesel or about 50% of the stations.. Fimding diesel anywhere in the midwest wouldn't be any problem at all. That's just Exxon-Mobile.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 12:46:50 PM
Exxon says that the nearest diesel station is 47.6 miles away. :rolleyes:
I'm not driving all the way over there to get it. :rolleyes:
That's just the nearest Exxon station.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 08:31:43 AM
I gotta ask this question- WTF is so great about hybrids? What's so wrong with diesels? they do the same thing the hybrid does- and they're also cheeper to build so why not just build more clean burning McDonalds grease diesels? A Durango hybrid? Who the hell is going to buy that?
Because when I think Hybrid I think "wow Hybrid, that's like some crazy space aged electric + gas high tech gizmo thingy!!"
When I think of diesel I think of this.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Mack_truck_in_Cap-Haitien.jpg/792px-Mack_truck_in_Cap-Haitien.jpg)
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:47:49 PM
I never said you were wrong. But the availability of diesel fuel isn't what's preventing Americans from buying them. That simply isn't a problem.
In some areas, like, say, both coasts, it's not so easy to come by. Particularly if, say, you're running low. Or if you're traveling in an unfamiliar area, and don't know when you'll find the next station that sells diesel.
It's definitely not just perception.
When I think of a diesel I think of this
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/rohowssgt/2007_BLUETEC_M_G_R1.jpg)
I think of TDI when I think diesel.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 12:59:15 PM
I think of TDI when I think diesel.
TDI?
That damned intrepid?
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 01:03:39 PM
TDI?
That damned intrepid?
The Intrepid isn't a diesel. :huh:
I meant Volkswagen's TDI engines.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 01:05:51 PM
The Intrepid isn't a diesel. :huh:
I meant Volkswagen's TDI engines.
I was talking about you- homo! :evildude: :evildude: :lol:
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 01:06:34 PM
I was talking about you- homo! :evildude: :evildude: :lol:
Pig. :evildude:
:devil:
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 12:58:01 PM
In some areas, like, say, both coasts, it's not so easy to come by. Particularly if, say, you're running low. Or if you're traveling in an unfamiliar area, and don't know when you'll find the next station that sells diesel.
It's definitely not just perception.
Looking at the Exxon site- unless I did it wrong- there are diesel stores all over the esast coast on that map.
But if they're going to make a Durango hybrid- how will it be any better than the current one that's geting on the highway what the Tahoe is? Who's gonna wanna pay the extra 4000 or 7000 fro technology that's not going to be recovered maybe over the life of a car - if you take the average owner only keeps his car or truck 3 or 4 years?
"All over" in some senses. If you know where they are, you'll get by. But they're not "all over" in the sense that you can count on one being where you are when you need gas. Most gas stations you find will not be serving it.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on November 04, 2007, 10:59:15 AM
I think that's only been done with VW diesels, but I may be wrong. :huh:
Old Benz diesels are the most common conversions I've seen.
Quote from: rohan on November 04, 2007, 08:31:43 AM
I gotta ask this question- WTF is so great about hybrids? What's so wrong with diesels? they do the same thing the hybrid does- and they're also cheeper to build so why not just build more clean burning McDonalds grease diesels? A Durango hybrid? Who the hell is going to buy that?
Why? Because they shared some of the development costs with GM and BMW for the system being used in the new GMT900 Tahoe.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:47:49 PM
I never said you were wrong. But the availability of diesel fuel isn't what's preventing Americans from buying them. That simply isn't a problem.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 12:23:40 PM
If anyone's wrong, it's you, for saying
"The only thing I don't like about diesels is that most gas stations don't sell it. That would be the only reason I wouldn't get a diesel."
Now I am very confused? :confused:
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 04:24:48 PM
Now I am very confused? :confused:
Notice the clause begins with "if," and I was commenting on your assertion that "
most gas stations don't sell it." I was never questioning whether or not the ones immediately around your house do.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 04:45:42 PM
Notice the clause begins with "if," and I was commenting on your assertion that "most gas stations don't sell it." I was never questioning whether or not the ones immediately around your house do.
Well, that's what I was talking about. I didn't mean that gas stations all over the country don't sell diesel, just the ones around my area don't.
:cheers:
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 02:01:23 PM
"All over" in some senses. If you know where they are, you'll get by. But they're not "all over" in the sense that you can count on one being where you are when you need gas. Most gas stations you find will not be serving it.
I still don't agree with that. It implies very few serve it, when in actual fact, the major cities we've been discussing are about 1/2 and 1/2.
On the East Coast, it might be a little less, but there is still a significant amount of stations. Around the DC area, 1467 out of 3246 stations sell diesel. So while your "most" may be technically correct, it's not the most accurate statement because diesel can't be as hard to find as you imply. If 50% of the stations serve it and the one you're at doesn't, chances are all you have to do is drive down the street to the next station. :huh:
Is there any way to get sales statistics for models by region? I'd be very interested to learn where all those E320 Bluetecs are being delivered to. My guess is the East Coast.
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 04:58:02 PM
Is there any way to get sales statistics for models by region? I'd be very interested to learn where all those E320 Bluetecs are being delivered to. My guess is the East Coast.
Not in California, that's for sure. :tounge:
Quote from: Tave on November 04, 2007, 04:55:26 PM
I still don't agree with that. It implies very few serve it, when in actual fact, the major cities we've been discussing are about 1/2 and 1/2.
On the East Coast, it might be a little less, but there is still a significant amount of stations. Around the DC area, 1467 out of 3246 stations sell diesel. So while your "most" may be technically correct, it's not the most accurate statement because diesel can't be as hard to find as you imply. If 50% of the stations serve it and the one you're at doesn't, chances are all you have to do is drive down the street to the next station. :huh:
That's not 49.99% or anything, that is significantly under half. And I'd bet that if you looked at whatever source you used, you'd see that the stations with diesel were found much more commonly in the outermost/rural suburbs of the DC area. Where most people in the area generally don't have a reason to go.
If I were to buy a diesel car, I'd have to go out of my way to get gas, and I wouldn't be able to gas up at the best-price stations near me. That's a hindrance. One of my neighbors who used to own diesel S-Classes switched to regular gas just before they stopped selling the diesel because of a lack of availability. Someone else I know ended a Jetta TDI lease early and got a 1.8T because of the hassle of getting gas.
I'm not saying it's unfeasible. It can be done. But say 55% of the gas stations in your area went out of business overnight and most of the rest switched to one pump, and tell me that you wouldn't both lose convenience and pay more. That's the equivalent of buying a diesel car in the DC area.
Quote from: ifcar on November 04, 2007, 05:46:38 PM
That's not 49.99% or anything, that is significantly under half. And I'd bet that if you looked at whatever source you used, you'd see that the stations with diesel were found much more commonly in the outermost/rural suburbs of the DC area. Where most people in the area generally don't have a reason to go.
It's 45% exactly, which in my book is pretty close to half. I used the Exxon search engine you mentioned, and it showed diesel stations all over the city: in and outside the Beltway.
I guess I've never really noticed: does the price of diesel vary from station to station, or is it more inelastic?
On a somewhat related note, I know people that don't have any stations within a 40 mile radius of their house.
When I was in Pheonix, there were at least three gas stations within a 1/2 a mile from my apartment, at least 5 within 1 mile, and at least 8 within 2 miles. Granted, according to the Exxon site, Pheonix has a higher percentage of diesel carriers (though not by much) than DC, and this isn't a very scientific study as we're only looking at Exxon stations, but I think there's a point here. Even if only one of those Pheonix stations carried diesel, and I had a diesel vehicle, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I can understand how it could be, in some areas, but it seems the exception rather than the rule.
Once again, I'd be interested to learn how many Merc and VW diesels are sold on the East Coast compared to the Midwest.
Quote from: Tave on November 05, 2007, 09:01:26 AM
It's 45% exactly, which in my book is pretty close to half. I used the Exxon search engine you mentioned, and it showed diesel stations all over the city: in and outside the Beltway.
I guess I've never really noticed: does the price of diesel vary from station to station, or is it more inelastic?
I've never said they don't exist, just that they're less common.
And I don't mean that the price of diesel varies so much by station, but all gas prices vary by station. Cut out more than half, and there's a good chance you lose the best-price stations.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 04, 2007, 04:59:23 PM
Not in California, that's for sure. :tounge:
Do you have any highways near you? Look at fuel stations near highways and there's usually diesel.
Quote from: MX793 on November 04, 2007, 11:02:10 AM
Other way around. The vegetable oil kits are for diesel cars (old diesel Mercedes are very popular choices for this conversion), not gasoline. In fact, there was a story on CNN or one of the other major news networks about a company in California that offers these conversion kits.
Yes, I saw it a week or so. Very interesting.
All the more reason to buy an old diesel G-class.
Quote from: SaltyDog on November 05, 2007, 02:24:00 PM
Do you have any highways near you? Look at fuel stations near highways and there's usually diesel.
The highway is a couple of miles away from my house, but that's still a pain when i can just fill up a gasoline car less than a mile away from my house.
Quote from: Tave on November 05, 2007, 09:16:30 AM
On a somewhat related note, I know people that don't have any stations within a 40 mile radius of their house.
When I was in Pheonix, there were at least three gas stations within a 1/2 a mile from my apartment, at least 5 within 1 mile, and at least 8 within 2 miles. Granted, according to the Exxon site, Pheonix has a higher percentage of diesel carriers (though not by much) than DC, and this isn't a very scientific study as we're only looking at Exxon stations, but I think there's a point here. Even if only one of those Pheonix stations carried diesel, and I had a diesel vehicle, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I can understand how it could be, in some areas, but it seems the exception rather than the rule.
Once again, I'd be interested to learn how many Merc and VW diesels are sold on the East Coast compared to the Midwest.
When you consider that a couple of states in the North East essentially outlawed diesel passenger cars by having tighter emissions regulations than the rest of the country, I suspect there are fewer diesels in the NE than in the midwest.
They only briefly blocked new diesels, by my understanding.