http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/115701-tundra-tailgate-failures-i-am-club/ (http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/tundra/115701-tundra-tailgate-failures-i-am-club/)
I'm sure some of you have heard about this by now, but this is a little bit surprising coming from Toyota. How could they overlook something as crucial as the tailgate?
I dunno, some minor damage to the tailgate after loading heavy objects onto it seem rather minor compared to roofs flying off of Corvettes while just driving along.
Every new product tends to have glitches.
Quote from: 565 on November 05, 2007, 08:58:46 PM
I dunno, some minor damage to the tailgate after loading heavy objects onto it seem rather minor compared to roofs flying off of Corvettes while just driving along.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/DallSheep4me/untitled2.jpg)
Yeah, purely cosmetic. :rolleyes:
In my experience tailgates always seem to be a weak point. I can't tell you how many 5 year old trucks I've seen with tailgates that no longer function properly. My Ranger's tailgate quit on me as well (to be fair, the truck was 13 years old at the time, and I did back into a telephone pole :lol:).
I agree though, that is something that's inexcusable on a truck that new. I'm interested to see how the Tundra holds up long term, in a commercial setting. Around here, most guys who actually use their truck for work are still driving domestics. Short of a couple of plumbers, most Tundras I've seen appear to be driven by people who don't actually use the truck for work.
I'm seeing Tundra's being used for construction companies, lawn care, and company trucks. I see a LOT of Tundra's being used.
The funny thing for me is that my 17-year-old Toyota SR5 pickup (love that thing to death, by the way) has taken quite a beating over the years, and the tailgate works just as well now as it ever did. I've loaded it beyond the manufacturer's suggested limit on numerous occasions, so it's not like I've babied it.
The Tundra is a big, bad monster of a truck, but skimping on the tailgate just doesn't cut it.
I do like those old 'Yota trucks. Small size and limited towing capabilities notwithstanding, they seem to to be pretty stout. I'm always keeping an eye out for one, but most of the ones I seem to find have been trashed or are overpriced.
I've got the 4-cylinder, so it's not what you might call "fast," either. :lol:
My neighbor is the sales manager at the local Toyota dealership, and he always tells me that I could get a surprising amount of money for my truck if I decide to sell it privately. That's not going to happen, but it's interesting to hear nonetheless. I plan on getting some bodywork done to fix all of the dents, along with a paint job and some other odds and ends, to restore it back to original condition. It's got about 140,000 miles on it right now, but when I picked it up in 1993 the original owner had already put something like 40,000 miles on it in three years - to say the least, it hasn't been driven too much on a yearly basis in the past 14 years.
I'm sure the tailgate failures are directly related to the "no Slam" lowering feature and one finger closing ability.
They probobly had to lighten the gate to make these features work. Doing this probobly removed a good deal of gates ability to withstand heavy loads(obviously).
Me - seems kinda basic too me - most any truck used for loading has tailgate damage to some extent. Really put a lot of weight or impact loading (the prototypical tailgate detroyer - chord wood) on a tailgate, and you'll get a lot of damage.
I've logged probably 300,000 miles or more on three different pickups. Two I bought well used; one tailgate was completely gone (no doubt having been beat to uselessness), and the other was beat 3x worse than that shown above. The truck I bought almost new ('97 Tacoma), I damaged the exterior side just by slamming it! Once I noticed this damage on my own truck, I saw "slam damage" on many, many trucks.
Regarding that picture above, you're certainly going beyond any reasonable loading if you're breaking welds and seams. Also look at the beating the bed has taken (portion not protected by the bed liner). That's a well-used truck despite being brand new.
Trucks are cool. Trucks are tough. Trucks however are not indestructable - use them hard, and they'll show it.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 05, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Me - seems kinda basic too me...
Surprise.
QuoteRegarding that picture above, you're certainly going beyond any reasonable loading if you're breaking welds and seams. Also look at the beating the bed has taken (portion not protected by the bed liner). That's a well-used truck despite being brand new.
What qualifies as "beyond any reasonable loading" for the Tundra, in your estimation?
Oh, and I forgot this about the Tacoma. The tailgate had bowed to the extent that after a while it simply wouldn't shut. The bowing had caused the latch catches extend beyond the bed, so rather than taking the risk of trying to pound out an entire tailgate into alignment, I spent an afternoon grinding the latch mounts on the bed such that it'd close properly.
I would also consider the use of the Tacoma as extremely light; no chord wood, no ATVs, etc. I can virtually guarantee that the bowing came from me simply stepping on the tailgate during the rare occasions I used it for hauling (and I'm not a big guy at ~165 lbs).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 05, 2007, 11:19:38 PM
Oh, and I forgot this about the Tacoma. The tailgate had bowed to the extent that after a while it simply wouldn't shut. The bowing had caused the latch catches extend beyond the bed, so rather than taking the risk of trying to pound out an entire tailgate into alignment, I spent an afternoon grinding the latch mounts on the bed such that it'd close properly.
I would also consider the use of the Tacoma as extremely light; no chord wood, no ATVs, etc. I can virtually guarantee that the bowing came from me simply stepping on the tailgate during the rare occasions I used it for hauling (and I'm not a big guy at ~165 lbs).
What are you trying to say, Toyota tailgates suck?
I remember seeing these on Toyota trucks all the time in the early 1990s. Now I know why.
(http://www.accessconnect.com/images/pronet.jpg)
Quote from: JYODER240 on November 06, 2007, 08:01:50 AM
What are you trying to say, Toyota tailgates suck?
Haha, that was my read on it.
I worked for my uncles excavation company while in school, and we beat his trucks to shit. I never had a tailgate stop working, though certainly they were beat all to hell. The would be dented, scratched, etc...but I never saw the sheet metal seperate or the tailgate itself break.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 05, 2007, 09:01:56 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/DallSheep4me/untitled2.jpg)
Yeah, purely cosmetic. :rolleyes:
You should be able to buff that out. :evildude:
The seam doesn't look welded. Looks like they stuck some adhesive in there and crimped the pieces together.
As I said before, I find the new Tundra incredibly cheap in many areas. Stuff like this just backs up my suspicions.
Quote from: etypeJohn on November 06, 2007, 09:35:02 AM
The seam doesn't look welded. Looks like they stuck some adhesive in there and crimped the pieces together.
That's actually common these days. But I believe that's just seam sealer that we see in this pic.
I've not had a new Tundra come in with a problem as of yet. But they are having problems with doors
on the Sienna vans.
Meh - I think the topic starter would get more mileage out of the 20 bad camshafts "disaster".
I want to know what a "Toyota Zealist" is.
Quote from: R-inge on November 06, 2007, 10:21:23 PM
I want to know what a "Toyota Zealist" is.
Kind of like a zealot, but with -isms?
Quote from: Onslaught on November 06, 2007, 08:26:33 PM
That's actually common these days. But I believe that's just seam sealer that we see in this pic.
I've not had a new Tundra come in with a problem as of yet. But they are having problems with doors
on the Sienna vans.
I can see doors being assembled that way, but I would expect a tailgate, which is frequently used to carry part of the load, to be made of stouter stuff. Of course it is cheaper not to weld it and I suspect these things are built to a price (as are most cars and trucks).
So what's happening to the Sienna doors?
Quote from: etypeJohn on November 07, 2007, 07:28:44 AM
I can see doors being assembled that way, but I would expect a tailgate, which is frequently used to carry part of the load, to be made of stouter stuff. Of course it is cheaper not to weld it and I suspect these things are built to a price (as are most cars and trucks).
So what's happening to the Sienna doors?
On the driver side front door they didn't make the metal thick enough where the door check bolts at. When people sling the door open over and over again it eventually rips the whole area off the door. I would suppose that the passenger side door is the same but it's not used as much and we've not had one in yet that has torn.
At first the "fix" was for us to just weld the door back together. But we keep telling people that the metal is still too thin and that this won't fix anything. So now we've been putting new doors on them. But I can't see a difference in the new ones and old ones myself and feel that in a year or so they will be back in with the same problem. I say our shop puts about 5-8 doors on a month.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 05, 2007, 09:01:56 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/DallSheep4me/untitled2.jpg)
Yeah, purely cosmetic. :rolleyes:
"Truck guys'll tell ya, yer tailgate ain't s'posed ta fall apart like that."
Quote from: GoCougs on November 05, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Me - seems kinda basic too me - most any truck used for loading has tailgate damage to some extent. Really put a lot of weight or impact loading (the prototypical tailgate detroyer - chord wood) on a tailgate, and you'll get a lot of damage.
I've logged probably 300,000 miles or more on three different pickups. Two I bought well used; one tailgate was completely gone (no doubt having been beat to uselessness), and the other was beat 3x worse than that shown above. The truck I bought almost new ('97 Tacoma), I damaged the exterior side just by slamming it! Once I noticed this damage on my own truck, I saw "slam damage" on many, many trucks.
Regarding that picture above, you're certainly going beyond any reasonable loading if you're breaking welds and seams. Also look at the beating the bed has taken (portion not protected by the bed liner). That's a well-used truck despite being brand new.
Trucks are cool. Trucks are tough. Trucks however are not indestructable - use them hard, and they'll show it.
What a load of apologist shit.
Cougs, you'd really defend any criticism of this truck until the end, wouldn't you.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 07, 2007, 07:42:22 PM
"Truck guys'll tell ya, yer tailgate ain't s'posed ta fall apart like that."
:devil: :devil:
But if you go through the discussion on the link provided at the start of this topic you'll note that the problem is confined to those who actually use their pickups for carrying things. :lol:
So, chances are the vast majority of owners won't experience these problems. :ohyeah:
Some of the posts from that link are very funny. A selection:
AlaskaCub.....were there any dents in the bed?? I have the same drop-in liner, but haven't loaded my ATV yet. Those photos are scary, to say the least. I have a feeling all of the sheet metal on the truck shares the same strength as the tailgate...I have to be careful not to push the roof in while leaning on it every time I wash it. I doubt if Toyota will do any kind of recall on this problem....and I think they will blame it on owner abuse.
+++++
That sucks. I was real hesitant to get the TRD pkg, because you can't get an 8' bed if you have TRD. The sales girl talked me into it because if I needed to carry anything that is 8' (plywood, sheetrock, 2X12s etc), I could just keep my tailgate down and I'd have my 8". Now I'm afraid to load my truck with lumber if the tailgate is that flimsy.
+++++
This is unacceptable. It's things like this that have me second guessing my decision to purchase this truck. I to have loaded my 4 wheeler in an 95 T100 many times without problem and never gave it a second thought. Now hunting season is here and I don't know what I am going to do. I hope this truck is half the truck my T100 is. How embarassed I'll be when I hesitate in front of the guys to load my machine.
+++++
The 05+ Tacomas are the same way. Toyota has a TSB out for the tailgate fix on the Tacomas. I agree the tailgate feels flimsy. When I load my ATV back there, the rear tires are always sitting on the tailgate (Crewmax w/toobox) and I worry sometimes the weight on it will deform it.
+++++
You should see mine. I have DEEP dents where the wheels sit on the gate. I have a toolbox so I need to ride it like this. This is also how I rode it in my old tundra, my old tacoma, my father's old tundra and even my old z71 with no problems.
I have yet to check this corner though. I am scared.
+++++
Of all the features on the truck I am only really concerned about the thinness of the truck bed walls, gate, and floor. I can see them skimping on general body panels but not the bed! Cmon, this is supposed to be a tough truck! No wonder they didn't show a heavy load being dropped into the bed in the commercials... I wonder if any brochures or ads show an ATV or similar load being hauled...
+++++
Whats pretty obvious is that a 200 lb man standing on the tailgate would quickly realize just how poorly built the gate is. I weigh 180 lbs and I can feel it flex under my weight just standing on it (as a matter of fact I noticed it this morning on my way to work when I stopped to dump trash at the transfer site). I believe the reason that the one guys tailgate that fell off and damaged his taillights and the bumper cuz he drove with the gate down is because the tailgates are so lightweight (cheap) that it could easily bounce up with no effort, especially with that whole spring loaded jobby on the bottom. So yes I believe the chinsy tailgate is a big issue in more ways than one. I am leaning towards safety too. Someonme brought up a great point about the bed extender. Theres no way this gate could handle much more than groceries on it for any length of travels so the bed extender is basically useless.
+++++DUDE! I went to the Toyota dealership just a little while ago to ask them about my transmission and rough idle. Apparently the jerk into gear is normal and the rough idle is normal because of the skirtless pistons. SO anyway, while I was driving with the salesman he brings up that he wants to buy a Tundra. I told him it was a good truck and asked if he had an ATV. He said no, and I brought up this thread. He basically called me a liar haha. He didn't have any reasoning at all but he basically said to me, "No, that's not the case." He was a great guy though and bent over backwards to help me with my issues.
+++++
Wow i just bought a $30,000 pillow transporter. I can't wait for my brothers response when I say, "OOhh Nooo don't sit on my tailgate it might split" and "OOhh don't place anything on the dash it will leave a scratch and expose gray plastic" and "don't lean up against the truck the paint is really soft" and "OOhh my truck just sounds like diesel until it warms up".
Does this mean the GM people can finally have the last laugh when it comes to Toyota?
Quote from: the Teuton on November 08, 2007, 12:04:03 PM
Does this mean the GM people can finally have the last laugh when it comes to Toyota?
The truck guys can keep laughing, at least.
Quote from: FordSVT on November 08, 2007, 10:11:55 AM
What a load of apologist shit. Cougs, you'd really defend any criticism of this truck until the end, wouldn't you.
Want me not to be an "apologist"?
Show me finite element analysis of the tailgate under load. Show me a dissected tailgate detailing construction and design. Heck, even show me a caliper reading of sheet metal thickness!
Just don't show me the ever tiresome sin du jour of teh Internets that is anecdote as data.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 07:56:09 PM
Want me not to be an "apologist"?
Show me finite element analysis of the tailgate under load. Show me a dissected tailgate detailing construction and design. Heck, even show me a caliper reading of sheet metal thickness!
Just don't show me the ever tiresome sin du jour of teh Internets that is anecdote as data.
How about we just show you the tailgate of a
brand new truck that looks worse than my uncle's 21-year-old F-250?
Don't worry guys, it's a Toyota, it was probably meant to bend like that. :lol:
Quote from: Raghavan on November 08, 2007, 08:15:01 PM
Don't worry guys, it's a Toyota, it was probably meant to bend like that. :lol:
Tru dat yo, Toyota can't mess up. It has the heritage of Mercedes.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 08, 2007, 08:14:24 PM
How about we just show you the tailgate of a brand new truck that looks worse than my uncle's 21-year-old F-250?
Like I said: anecdotes as data...
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 08:23:57 PM
Like I said: anecdotes as data...
:lol:
I agree with Cougs. I don't think there's a problem.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 07:56:09 PM
Want me not to be an "apologist"?
Show me finite element analysis of the tailgate under load. Show me a dissected tailgate detailing construction and design. Heck, even show me a caliper reading of sheet metal thickness!
Just don't show me the ever tiresome sin du jour of teh Internets that is anecdote as data.
Why not? You already base your opinion on nothing but anecdotal evidence.
If you stepped on the tailgate of a Tundra and it snapped in half and you fell to the ground and broke your ankle, you'd say you didn't have any evidence the problem was widespread and you'd recommend one to your best friend.
It's OK to say you can't admit anything bad about the Tundra because you've been singing it's praises for so long. Really.
Quote from: FordSVT on November 08, 2007, 08:40:05 PM
Why not? You already base your opinion on nothing but anecdotal evidence.
No, no, no. At I simply stated that tailgate damage is commonplace - and have even personally caused a good measure of it.
Quote
If you stepped on the tailgate of a Tundra and it snapped in half and you fell to the ground and broke your ankle, you'd say you didn't have any evidence the problem was widespread and you'd recommend one to your best friend.
This really doesn't jive - this is an impossible scenario.
Quote
It's OK to say you can't admit anything bad about the Tundra because you've been singing it's praises for so long. Really.
Few, including yours truly, would go so far as to state that a complicated all-new product from an all-new factory would be perfect. If you're so hell-bent to convert me, show me! Don't show me 20 bad camshafts, or a thread of damaged tailgate stories, and expect bandwagon Toyota damnation.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 08:23:57 PM
Like I said: anecdotes as data...
That's called real-world user data sampling.
Two more articles.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/)
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/toyota-responds-to-tailgate-issue/2 (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/toyota-responds-to-tailgate-issue/2)
Even Toyota seems to believe there's the possibility of an issue.
And GoCougs, no one's asking you to jump on any band-wagon. You're free to think the Toyota is a good truck, but your tireless "support Tundra at all costs" mantra and your being the first to jump in to discredit or disprove or gloss-over any and all criticism of the truck is rather transparent. It's a good truck, not a perfect truck, but you've been salivating over the damn thing since you laid your eyes on the first spec sheet and can't even admit that.
You don't do this with any other vehicle that I can recall, I'm not certain why you take the Tundra so personally. You won't be happy until Toyota comes out and says "yes there is a problem and this is the engineering reason behind it and this is the engineering solution". They never will, so therefore you'll never believe there's a problem, it will always be a simple statistical anomaly to you.
Quote from: FordSVT on November 08, 2007, 09:55:23 PM
Two more articles.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/)
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/toyota-responds-to-tailgate-issue/2 (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/toyota-responds-to-tailgate-issue/2)
Even Toyota seems to believe there's the possibility of an issue.
And GoCougs, no one's asking you to jump on any band-wagon. You're free to think the Toyota is a good truck, but your tireless "support Tundra at all costs" mantra and your being the first to jump in to discredit or disprove or gloss-over any and all criticism of the truck is rather transparent. It's a good truck, not a perfect truck, but you've been salivating over the damn thing since you laid your eyes on the first spec sheet and can't even admit that.
You don't do this with any other vehicle that I can recall, I'm not certain why you take the Tundra so personally. You won't be happy until Toyota comes out and says "yes there is a problem and this is the engineering reason behind it and this is the engineering solution". They never will, so therefore you'll never believe there's a problem, it will always be a simple statistical anomaly to you.
Let me put it to you in Socratic terms: had the '07 Tundra been simply a continuation of the first generation (i.e., not all-new), think we'd see these "look what is wrong with the new Tundra" threads and corresponding replies of similar ilk?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 10:12:55 PM
Let me put it to you in Socratic terms: had the '07 Tundra been simply a continuation of the first generation (i.e., not all-new), think we'd see these "look what is wrong with the new Tundra" threads and corresponding replies of similar ilk?
What does that have to do with the taligate issue?
Quote from: JYODER240 on November 08, 2007, 10:16:02 PM
What does that have to do with the taligate issue?
Taligate? As in, tally me banana? J/k.
But in answer to your question: About as much as virtually all of FordSVT's post save for the two links.
At least he took the effort to find something more than a thread on another forum; case in point Toyota's response that they're investigating it.
Maybe FordSVT should be in charge.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 08:51:17 PM
No, no, no. At I simply stated that tailgate damage is commonplace - and have even personally caused a good measure of it.
So have the Silverado, Sierra, F-150, Ram, and Titan suffered similar issues?
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 08, 2007, 11:03:49 PM
So have the Silverado, Sierra, F-150, Ram, and Titan suffered similar issues?
Apparently not from the kind of loads that are causing this damage. The damage to the white truck in the picture was caused by a golf cart. Golf carts aren't that heavy. Somewhere in that 32 page long thread people mentioned they could feel the tailgate flex just by standing on it.
Toyota apparently made the tailgate as light as possible so their non-slamming feature could work properly. It would appear hat they might have shaved a few too many pounds from the tailgate.
Its also been noted that most of the sheetmetal on this truck is pretty thin. To save weight? Probably.
I've loaded some pretty heavy items, like cast iron and concrete pipe, on both Ford and Chevy tailgates and never experienced the kind of damage shown in the photos. It looks to me like Toyota has just removed too much metal in an effort to lighten the vehicle.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 08, 2007, 10:34:48 PM
Taligate? As in, tally me banana? J/k.
But in answer to your question: About as much as virtually all of FordSVT's post save for the two links.
At least I can admit my own biases and see the negative qualities in the vehicles I own or love. I've found that being objective is beneficial, you should try it sometime. :ohyeah:
Quote from: FordSVT on November 09, 2007, 08:58:00 AM
At least I can admit my own biases and see the negative qualities in the vehicles I own or love. I've found that being objective is beneficial, you should try it sometime. :ohyeah:
So what's up? You're usually pretty mellow.
Jesus, another pissing-match thread over the (no big surprise) Tundra?
This truck draws more controversy than anything I have ever seen. And it always turns into the Toyota camp (Cougs) remaining stead-fast for Toyota, and the Toyota Blew it camp (everyone else) saying what an asshole he is. Is it too hard to have somewhat of an intelligent discussion, perhaps with facts, and no name calling? After all, these are internet forums. No point in getting frazzled.
Quote from: Submariner on November 09, 2007, 09:05:35 PM
Jesus, another pissing-match thread over the (no big surprise) Tundra?
This truck draws more controversy than anything I have ever seen. And it always turns into the Toyota camp (Cougs) remaining stead-fast for Toyota, and the Toyota Blew it camp (everyone else) saying what an asshole he is. Is it too hard to have somewhat of an intelligent discussion, perhaps with facts, and no name calling? After all, these are internet forums. No point in getting frazzled.
n00b, Toyota is t3h pwnz0r, and everything else is a POS which won't last 1,000,000 miles. Get j00r facts straight. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Submariner on November 09, 2007, 09:05:35 PM
Jesus, another pissing-match thread over the (no big surprise) Tundra?
This truck draws more controversy than anything I have ever seen. And it always turns into the Toyota camp (Cougs) remaining stead-fast for Toyota, and the Toyota Blew it camp (everyone else) saying what an asshole he is. Is it too hard to have somewhat of an intelligent discussion, perhaps with facts, and no name calling? After all, these are internet forums. No point in getting frazzled.
I also think the Tuindra is a good truck.
If the tailgate is a little weak: so thefuck what? It's the easiest thing to replace on a truck anyways, and most eventually get beaten beyond repair in a few years regardless of how tuff they are.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2007, 09:36:05 PM
I also think the Tuindra is a good truck.
If the tailgate is a little weak: so thefuck what? It's the easiest thing to replace on a truck anyways, and most eventually get beaten beyond repair in a few years regardless of how tuff they are.
Tough.
Quote from: etypeJohn on November 09, 2007, 08:05:42 AM
Apparently not from the kind of loads that are causing this damage. The damage to the white truck in the picture was caused by a golf cart. Golf carts aren't that heavy. Somewhere in that 32 page long thread people mentioned they could feel the tailgate flex just by standing on it.
Toyota apparently made the tailgate as light as possible so their non-slamming feature could work properly. It would appear hat they might have shaved a few too many pounds from the tailgate.
Its also been noted that most of the sheetmetal on this truck is pretty thin. To save weight? Probably.
I've loaded some pretty heavy items, like cast iron and concrete pipe, on both Ford and Chevy tailgates and never experienced the kind of damage shown in the photos. It looks to me like Toyota has just removed too much metal in an effort to lighten the vehicle.
The Titan has a no slam tailgate as well.
And, my dad has owned solely trucks for his entire driving career, he has never replaced a tail gate (and, yes, they are used as trucks).
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2007, 09:36:05 PMIf the tailgate is a little weak: so thefuck what?
I guess I figured Toyota would pay particular attention to something that gets used as often as the tailgate. Surely they knew it wasn't the strongest thing in the world before they released the truck to the public?
Quote from: Submariner on November 09, 2007, 09:05:35 PM
Jesus, another pissing-match thread over the (no big surprise) Tundra?
This truck draws more controversy than anything I have ever seen. And it always turns into the Toyota camp (Cougs) remaining stead-fast for Toyota, and the Toyota Blew it camp (everyone else) saying what an asshole he is. Is it too hard to have somewhat of an intelligent discussion, perhaps with facts, and no name calling? After all, these are internet forums. No point in getting frazzled.
Actually, I have to give props to Carspin in that the frequency of such threads is
far lower than most any other automotive BB.
I state it again, and repeat the sentiment for pertinent effect - had Toyota still been selling the first generation Tundra, you'd not see
any of this.
A Japanese truck that simply out-trucks the domestics is a hot potato - especially one made by Big Bad Toyota.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2007, 09:36:05 PM
I also think the Tuindra is a good truck.
As do I.
QuoteIf the tailgate is a little weak: so thefuck what?
Because a new one probably costs $1500 without paint.
[/quote]It's the easiest thing to replace on a truck anyways, and most eventually get beaten beyond repair in a few years regardless of how tuff they are.[/quote]
My parents had an '81 Ford F-250 that was used in their landscaping business and we put a new tailgate on it every 2 years. The latching system and internal mechanism design was terrible. Their '92 F-250 was also used in their landscaping company performing the same duties as the '81 and the tailgate was never replaced and worked as well on the day they sold it 3 months ago as it did the day they bought it. Tailgates don't just fail...unless they are weak or poorly designed.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2007, 11:39:56 PM
Actually, I have to give props to Carspin in that the frequency of such threads is far lower than most any other automotive BB.
I state it again, and repeat the sentiment for pertinent effect - had Toyota still been selling the first generation Tundra, you'd not see any of this.
A Japanese truck that simply out-trucks the domestics is a hot potato - especially one made by Big Bad Toyota.
I guarantee you that if this happened to Dodge, Ford, or GM this would be front page news and car scribes would be predicting their demise because of it.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 09, 2007, 11:41:35 PM
I guarantee you that if this happened to Dodge, Ford, or GM this would be front page news and car scribes would be predicting their demise because of it.
Because of one thread about tailgates?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2007, 11:39:56 PM
Actually, I have to give props to Carspin in that the frequency of such threads is far lower than most any other automotive BB.
I state it again, and repeat the sentiment for pertinent effect - had Toyota still been selling the first generation Tundra, you'd not see any of this.
Yes...but how does it "out-truck" the big three? Certainly not because of it's overly done, grotesque styling.
The tundra still lacks much of the equipment that is considered a plus in the truck segment, such as a diesel engine, dual rear tires, an HD option, etc. The Tundra doesn't manage to "
out truck" the Segment leaders, because it offers nothing substantially different or innovative over them. Toyota however did seem to execute the Tundra's design fairly well, and perhaps is being bashed unfairly for this issue. Only time will tell us just how bad this tailgate fiasco really is.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2007, 11:39:56 PM
A Japanese truck that simply out-trucks the domestics is a hot potato - especially one made by Big Bad Toyota.
Well, as long as you don't use the tailgate. Does anybody use the tailgate anyway? :huh:
Notice that a lot of the owners in the linked thread have commented about exceedingly thin/flimsy sheetmetal as well. I guess "out-trucking" mostly involves lots of horsepower and other "big" numbers, but not necessarily sturdy construction or long-term durability. Toyota cut corners in the interior and now, as we're finding out, on the sheetmetal as well (not to mention the engine problems). Where else?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2007, 11:47:00 PM
Because of one thread about tailgates?
Yes. This is probably the only existing discussion about the Tundra's tailgate problems. I doubt Toyota even knows about it.
Quote from: Submariner on November 10, 2007, 08:49:24 AM
Yes...but how does it "out-truck" the big three? Certainly not because of it's overly done, grotesque styling.
The tundra still lacks much of the equipment that is considered a plus in the truck segment, such as a diesel engine, dual rear tires, an HD option, etc. The Tundra doesn't manage to "
out truck" the Segment leaders, because it offers nothing substantially different or innovative over them. Toyota however did seem to execute the Tundra's design fairly well, and perhaps is being bashed unfairly for this issue. Only time will tell us just how bad this tailgate fiasco really is.
Even I have to admit that Toyota makes the best 1/2 ton pickup on the market right now. The Tundra out-trucks the 1/2 tons, and if they made a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton I'm sure they would be close to the Big 3 in that category as well. I don't know that they would be as good as the Big 3 in their first effort, but it would definitely be close. In the Canadian Truck King Challenge (http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=11454.0) this year, the Tundra swept the 1/2 Ton segment in all categories. It's the only truck comparo that I know of where they put the trucks through every conceivable test that a pickup needs to do, from off-roading, to hauling a heavy load, to pulling a trailer with a Jeep on it, to interior storage and flexibility. All their tests have the "real" truck user in mind...not the truck owner that refuses to carry a load in his truck because it might scratch.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 10, 2007, 09:02:39 AM
Even I have to admit that Toyota makes the best 1/2 ton pickup on the market right now. The Tundra out-trucks the 1/2 tons, and if they made a 3/4 ton or a 1 ton I'm sure they would be close to the Big 3 in that category as well. I don't know that they would be as good as the Big 3 in their first effort, but it would definitely be close. In the Canadian Truck King Challenge (http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=11454.0) this year, the Tundra swept the 1/2 Ton segment in all categories. It's the only truck comparo that I know of where they put the trucks through every conceivable test that a pickup needs to do, from off-roading, to hauling a heavy load, to pulling a trailer with a Jeep on it, to interior storage and flexibility. All their tests have the "real" truck user in mind...not the truck owner that refuses to carry a load in his truck because it might scratch.
When I said "out truck" I meant that it offers no innovative features over the rest. The Tundra does, however, do what the other trucks to, just better.
Quote from: Submariner on November 10, 2007, 09:05:48 AM
When I said "out truck" I meant that it offers no innovative features over the rest. The Tundra does, however, do what the other trucks to, just better.
It has one advantage, it looks BIG. I don't live in a very pickup-popular area so I haven't seen any side by side with any other trucks but whenever I HAVE seen the new Tundra, it looks absolutely MASSIVE.
Quote from: Submariner on November 10, 2007, 09:05:48 AM
When I said "out truck" I meant that it offers no innovative features over the rest. The Tundra does, however, do what the other trucks to, just better.
How the heck is that not "out trucking" the competition?
And when was the last time a truck offered significant innovative features over the others,
especially in the 1/2-ton market?
It's about more power, more gears, bigger breaks, more room, more towing, more load capacity, etc. You know - truck stuff.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 10:00:53 AM
It's about more power, more gears, bigger breaks, more room, more towing, more load capacity, etc. You know - truck stuff.
Yeah, Toyota sure outdid everyone with their 'breaks':
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/DallSheep4me/untitled2.jpg)
I haven't seen a 'break' so impressive in the 1/2-ton market. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :clap:
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 10:00:53 AM
How the heck is that not "out trucking" the competition?
And when was the last time a truck offered significant innovative features over the others, especially in the 1/2-ton market?
It's about more power, more gears, bigger breaks, more room, more towing, more load capacity, etc. You know - truck stuff.
It's my interpretation. I meant that it has no "truck like" innovations. Not that it performed what it does have at a sub-par level.
Quote from: Submariner on November 10, 2007, 11:34:43 AM
It's my interpretation. I meant that it has no "truck like" innovations. Not that it performed what it does have at a sub-par level.
"Out truck" = innovation?
What are some recent innovations in the USA 1/2 ton market, by any automaker?
Quote from: Minpin on November 09, 2007, 09:54:19 PM
Tough.
It's
tuff, and I'll give you five reasons why. :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 11:54:22 AM
"Out truck" = innovation?
What are some recent innovations in the USA 1/2 ton market, by any automaker?
DoD, E85 capability and 4wheel steering (yeah, it was a flop I know).
Quote from: Submariner on November 10, 2007, 09:05:48 AM
When I said "out truck" I meant that it offers no innovative features over the rest. The Tundra does, however, do what the other trucks to, just better.
When was the last time a pickup was "innovative"? A pickup doesn't need to be innovative, it needs to do it's damn job without breaking. It needs to be tough, powerful, and be comfortable. If it does those better then the others, then it's done it's job.
I feel like I should give some kudos to our good friend Mr. Cougs. He has successfully altered the focus of this thread.
I knew he had it in him, but I certainly didn't expect him to do it quite so deliberately.
Quote from: R-inge on November 10, 2007, 12:03:53 PM
DoD, E85 capability and 4wheel steering (yeah, it was a flop I know).
Good points, but I think DoD and E85 benefits are a bit sketchy.
All in all, trucks remain BoF, live axle, V8 monoliths. Innovation is very hard with such legacy motifs.
If we're talking innovation, then IMO we're talking Ridgeline (uh oh, mention of another "controverial" "truck").
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 10, 2007, 12:08:11 PM
I feel like I should give some kudos to our good friend Mr. Cougs. He has successfully altered the focus of this thread.
I knew he had it in him, but I certainly didn't expect him to do it quite so deliberately.
Do you really want, or more precisely what will you (or the forum) get from, two more pages of tit-for-tat on
tailgates?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 01:01:00 PM
Good points, but I think DoD and E85 benefits are a bit sketchy.
All in all, trucks remain BoF, live axle, V8 monoliths. Innovation is very hard with such legacy motifs.
If we're talking innovation, then IMO we're talking Ridgeline (uh oh, mention of another "controverial" "truck").
E85 yes, but DoD makes sense for any engine, to me anyway. While it might not have a huge impact in and of itself, in conjunction with other technologies it can have a cummulative effect.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 01:01:00 PM
Good points, but I think DoD and E85 benefits are a bit sketchy.
All in all, trucks remain BoF, live axle, V8 monoliths. Innovation is very hard with such legacy motifs.
If we're talking innovation, then IMO we're talking Ridgeline (uh oh, mention of another "controverial" "truck").
The thing is, there will always be a necessity for body of frame construction, until we can build a unibody strong enough without the added weight to haul over 10,000lbs and carry a significant payload. Yeah, a Honda Ridgeline-like truck is great for most truck buyers, since very few ever approach the limits of what they can handle, but frankly a stout ladder frame is a boon to trailering folk everywhere.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 01:03:10 PM
Do you really want, or more precisely what will you (or the forum) get from, two more pages of tit-for-tat on tailgates?
Does it really matter? Discussion is discussion, and this is a noteworthy issue. Perhaps I should write and submit a thread proposal, complete with goals and expectations, before I open a new topic? If you don't see the value of "two more pages of tit-for-tat on
tailgates," you can feel free not to contribute.
It was more of an observation, though. I knew you'd pop in sooner or later.
Quote from: R-inge on November 10, 2007, 01:14:15 PM
E85 yes, but DoD makes sense for any engine, to me anyway. While it might not have a huge impact in and of itself, in conjunction with other technologies it can have a cummulative effect.
Definitely in combination with a 6+sp AT (or even CVT), yes, that is notable.
And yes I think that the US truck market will be BoF for some time to come. However, I envision that "trucks" such as the Ridgeline will eventually become the norm, and the traditional BoF trucks will be relegated to fleet and/or work duty - similar in the way that minivans relegated traditional vans to fleet/work duty customers.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
Definitely in combination with a 6+sp AT (or even CVT), yes, that is notable.
And yes I think that the US truck market will be BoF for some time to come. However, I envision that "trucks" such as the Ridgeline will eventually become the norm, and the traditional BoF trucks will be relegated to fleet and/or work duty - similar in the way that minivans relegated traditional vans to fleet/work duty customers.
You're dreamin'. Ridgeline has hardly made an impact in any way.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 10, 2007, 02:52:46 PM
You're dreamin'. Ridgeline has hardly made an impact in any way.
Dude, you're forgetting about the hidden storage compartment in the bed where the spare tire is located, so if you get a flat tire while hauling junk, you have to take everything out to access it!
Isn't that so innovative??
:devil:
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 10, 2007, 01:56:20 PM
Does it really matter? Discussion is discussion, and this is a noteworthy issue. Perhaps I should write and submit a thread proposal, complete with goals and expectations, before I open a new topic? If you don't see the value of "two more pages of tit-for-tat on tailgates," you can feel free not to contribute.
It was more of an observation, though. I knew you'd pop in sooner or later.
What more can be said? Inasmuch as I take your judgement of my mad thread manipulation skillz, it wasn't by design. Usually when threads get "diverted" or otherwise wonder, it's at the hands of gassed original topic. Besides, I'm not the only one not talking tailates.
Perhaps you can run with the Toyota's flimsy sheet metal you mentioned previously. That's actually one I haven't heard - and a lot harder to "prove" (meaning, more pages) than a link to a thread about prone-to-damage-on-any-truck tailgates.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 10, 2007, 02:54:17 PM
Dude, you're forgetting about the hidden storage compartment in the bed where the spare tire is located, so if you get a flat tire while hauling junk, you have to take everything out to access it!
Isn't that so innovative??
:devil:
Oh yeah, you're right. That was a game changer.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
Definitely in combination with a 6+sp AT (or even CVT), yes, that is notable.
And yes I think that the US truck market will be BoF for some time to come. However, I envision that "trucks" such as the Ridgeline will eventually become the norm, and the traditional BoF trucks will be relegated to fleet and/or work duty - similar in the way that minivans relegated traditional vans to fleet/work duty customers.
If that were so, there would've been another minivan-based pickup on the market by now.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 10, 2007, 02:52:46 PM
You're dreamin'. Ridgeline has hardly made an impact in any way.
I don't think I'm dreaming. I'm by no means a militant Ridgeline fan, nor am I stating that it has had a major effect on the market, but I'm looking purely at which vehicle fulfills the
material needs of the majority of 1/2-ton buyers more efficiently.
Most 1/2-ton owners don't haul more than 1,500 lbs. Most 1/2-ton owners don't tow more than 5,000 lbs. Most 1/2-ton owners don't do hardcore off-roading. Most 1/2-ton owners however love buying one of the most prominent pieces of Americana ever devised.
Most 1/2 ton buyers want something that won't make them frown every time they look at their car.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 10, 2007, 12:05:49 PM
When was the last time a pickup was "innovative"? A pickup doesn't need to be innovative, it needs to do it's damn job without breaking. It needs to be tough, powerful, and be comfortable. If it does those better then the others, then it's done it's job.
Well, according to that picture...it failed the durability test with flying colors.
(yes...I know, it's one picture)
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 02:58:41 PM
What more can be said?
I guess we'll find out. But if Cougs thinks the thread is done, maybe it should be locked.
QuoteUsually when threads get "diverted" or otherwise wonder, it's at the hands of gassed original topic.
Yes, this one is definitely gassed. Good observation.
QuotePerhaps you can run with the Toyota's flimsy sheet metal you mentioned previously. That's actually one I haven't heard - and a lot harder to "prove" (meaning, more pages) than a link to a thread about prone-to-damage-on-any-truck tailgates.
I'll do my best to keep everybody abreast of the situation. No guarantees, though.
Nice quote usage, BTW. Your emphatic defiance is admirable.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 10, 2007, 07:32:29 PM
I guess we'll find out. But if Cougs thinks the thread is done, maybe it should be locked.
I think you're being on your progenity. There's at least a complete page of non-tailgate posts - an indication that it may have a bit of life left.
Quote
Yes, this one is definitely gassed. Good observation.
I'd say self-evident - but hey, I'll take a compliment when I can get it.
Quote
I'll do my best to keep everybody abreast of the situation. No guarantees, though.
I'd keep an eye on it - flimsly sheet metal is the proverbial tasty icing upon the big fat cake of "controversy" that is 20 bad camshafts, bad AT programming, 4 star crash results, and the same-as-Ford-SuperDuty-and-Silverado-HD partially boxed frame.
Quote
Nice quote usage, BTW. Your emphatic defiance is admirable.
"Thank you."
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2007, 11:54:22 AM
"Out truck" = innovation?
What are some recent innovations in the USA 1/2 ton market, by any automaker?
(http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/02avalanche1500_z66.jpg)
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 11, 2007, 04:46:39 PM
(http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/02avalanche1500_z66.jpg)
The Avalanche is useless as a pickup. Sure it can tow, but the box is so small you may as well have a Ridgeline that at least has a trunk-in-bed. :ohyeah:
I don't think I'd call it useless, but I wouldn't call it innovative: it's simply a Suburban with a bed.
The last truly innovative truck was the '88 GM - prior to that the Big Three, especially GM and Dodge, were skating on platforms dating back to the early '70s.
Quote from: VetteZ06 on November 08, 2007, 11:03:49 PM
So have the Silverado, Sierra, F-150, Ram, and Titan suffered similar issues?
I can't believe you forgot the huge GM tailgate cable breaking fasico.
The GM trucks used to have tailgate cables that snapped, sometimes at highway speeds, spilling your crap all over the road, causing major road hazards.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/defect/results.cfm?action_number=PE03049&SearchType=QuickSearch&summary=true
"During the PE, ODI discovered that one or both of the tailgate support cables can break due to the effects of metal fatigue at the point where the cable flexes when the lift gate is opened and closed. Concurrently, the strength of the cable degrades over time due to corrosion of the wire strands in the support cables. When the vehicle is stationary and cargo is being loaded or unloaded,
the tailgate can tip downward displacing cargo and/or people to the ground without warning. ODI is also aware of
one total separation of the tailgate from the vehicle. Owners cannot easily detect whether the support cabes are damaged or corroded because they are covered by a protective sheath. ODI is upgrading this preliminary evaluation for further appropriate action. Model year 2003 vehicles will be added to the investigation. Further, we will incude additional vehicles, those being the Avalanche and Cadillac ext, model years 2002-2003, and the Sierra, model years 1999-2003. Investigation was initiated on October 23 2003. Closed on February 19 2004. For detailed information & supporting documents, see the official NHTSA page concerning investigation #PE03049"
After much pressure, GM finally recalled the trucks
http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/safety-recall-32.shtml
"Picture this: you?re driving down the highway when suddenly you hear a bang and you look in your rear view mirror and see the cargo that was in your truck?s bed bouncing down the roadway behind you. Sure you closed the tailgate, but according to GM, the cables can break and you could lose your cargo...you better just hope there?s no one behind you if it falls out!"
Compared to complete tailgate failure with your cargo and possibly the entire tailgate falling off, it makes Tundra's troubles seem indeed cosmetic.
http://www.atvoffroad.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119
GM ultimately recalled over 4 million trucks.
http://trucks.about.com/od/truckrecalls/qt/latch_recall.htm
"Existing Cables Could Corrode,
Causing Tailgate to Drop Off12-02-04 General Motors has sent owners of
4.1 million trucks a reminder to take take part in a safety recall involving tailgate cables. On some of those trucks, the galvanized steel tailgate support cables may corrode, weaken, and eventually break.
Letters went out to owners in March and October, and will continue to go out every other month until repairs are complete.
The recall involves some:
2000 Chevrolet CK
2000-2004 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra trucks
2002-2004 Cadillac Escalade EXT
2002-2004 Chevrolet Avalanche trucks
Your GM dealer will replace the original cables with stainless steel versions at no cost to you."
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 11, 2007, 05:48:35 PM
The Avalanche is useless as a pickup. Sure it can tow, but the box is so small you may as well have a Ridgeline that at least has a trunk-in-bed. :ohyeah:
I don't think so. The whole point of the Avalanche is that you get to push in to the cab and you get enough space for the standard benchmark load of 4'x8' sheets of plywood. I've looked into these things because I'm considering buying one soon, and I can't find much that an Avalanche can't haul and regular pick-up can.
(http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/magazine/images/2007chevyavalanche/2007ChevyAvalancheCargoBoxMidgateFolded01FixedSmall.jpg)
(http://sandiego-avalanche.com/avalanche/ext_gallery05.jpg)
(http://www.detectionk9ofamerica.com/muniza.jpg)
(http://www.sporttruckdirect.com/Pics/BED/Bedslide%20Avalanche%20Clubs%20Girl%20Big.jpg)
That works for me.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 11, 2007, 06:10:02 PM
I don't think I'd call it useless, but I wouldn't call it innovative: it's simply a Suburban with a bed.
Tell that to the US Patent Office.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7036872-fulltext.html
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 11, 2007, 11:38:45 PM
Tell that to the US Patent Office.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7036872-fulltext.html
I forgot the mid gate. However, it's still a Suburban, with a bed, and mid gate (which cars have had in practice for quite some time). It needs more however to be innovative as a whole. Had the Suburban not existed, perhaps.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 11, 2007, 11:38:45 PM
Tell that to the US Patent Office.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7036872-fulltext.html
There are close to 4,000 patents for mousetraps. Most of those patented devices are virtually worthless.
The simple fact of having a patent does not ensure usefulness or practicality.
Quote from: 565 on November 11, 2007, 11:19:20 PM
"Picture this: you?re driving down the highway when suddenly you hear a bang and you look in your rear view mirror and see the cargo that was in your truck?s bed bouncing down the roadway behind you. Sure you closed the tailgate, but according to GM, the cables can break and you could lose your cargo...you better just hope there?s no one behind you if it falls out!"
The cables just supported an open tailgate. Corroded cables would not have increased the likelyhood of the tailgate opening on its own.
Quote from: etypeJohn on November 12, 2007, 06:58:46 AM
The cables just supported an open tailgate. Corroded cables would not have increased the likelyhood of the tailgate opening on its own.
Right, the risk wasnt so much that your cargo would spill out of an otherwise closed bed, but that if you had weight on the open tailgate it would collapse, possibly causing a very bad day.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 11, 2007, 11:33:19 PM
I don't think so. The whole point of the Avalanche is that you get to push in to the cab and you get enough space for the standard benchmark load of 4'x8' sheets of plywood. I've looked into these things because I'm considering buying one soon, and I can't find much that an Avalanche can't haul and regular pick-up can.
(http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/magazine/images/2007chevyavalanche/2007ChevyAvalancheCargoBoxMidgateFolded01FixedSmall.jpg)
That works for me.
As much as I don't want an Avalanche, I'll back you up on this. A friend of mine has an Avalance and it's been quite useful. The bed's a bit short, but for day to day driving with occasional bed use, it's a nice set up. It's also great to go to Lowe's and be able to throw your stuff in an enclosed/covered area, you really don't have to worry about getting stuff rained on, and it's a bit easier to convert than most tonneau covers I've used.
It's not a great truck, it's not a great SUV, but it does a decent job at being both.
Quote from: thewizard16 on November 13, 2007, 08:43:38 PM
As much as I don't want an Avalanche, I'll back you up on this. A friend of mine has an Avalance and it's been quite useful. The bed's a bit short, but for day to day driving with occasional bed use, it's a nice set up. It's also great to go to Lowe's and be able to throw your stuff in an enclosed/covered area, you really don't have to worry about getting stuff rained on, and it's a bit easier to convert than most tonneau covers I've used.
It's not a great truck, it's not a great SUV, but it does a decent job at being both.
That's pretty much all I'd want it for. That and towing a bass boat.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 13, 2007, 10:54:02 PM
That's pretty much all I'd want it for. That and towing a bass boat.
It'd be a good fit then. The new ones have the nice interiors too.
Quote from: thewizard16 on November 14, 2007, 12:13:02 PM
It'd be a good fit then. The new ones have the nice interiors too.
I'd be getting a GMT800, probably an '02 or '03. I can't afford a $30k+ truck. $10-15k is my budget.
The old ones are still pretty decent though, especially in LT trim.
I don't like how the interior can get dirty if you have grimy junk in the extended bed.
Quote from: sandertheshark on November 14, 2007, 05:05:15 PM
I'd be getting a GMT800, probably an '02 or '03. I can't afford a $30k+ truck. $10-15k is my budget.
The old ones are still pretty decent though, especially in LT trim.
That's what my friend has. It's an 02, and the interior's not terrible. His is the leather/cloth mix interior, and it's livable.
Quote from: Raghavan on November 14, 2007, 05:06:53 PM
I don't like how the interior can get dirty if you have grimy junk in the extended bed.
As opposed to an SUV, where it definitely gets dirty when you put grimy junk in it. We already established the Avalanche was not the perfect pickup, nor was it meant to be.