With the gas prices going through the roof, do you the think more Lux brands in the states will start offering smaller fuel efficient engines in its larger sedans. Since these choices are offered elsewhere, it would not be so difficult to bring here.. They were even sold here in the past anyways before the horsepower wars started.
S300, E200, A6 2.0, 730i, etc..
I just saw a last gen S320 the other day. That surprised me. I didn't know we got that car here.
Quote from: the Teuton on June 10, 2008, 07:58:44 AM
I just saw a last gen S320 the other day. That surprised me. I didn't know we got that car here.
We even got a LWB version.
I know the S350 was offerred here at the end of the course..But now its only the S550.. I also thought it was strange..I know many that like the big sedans but hate the big engines..
In Australia, the S350, S500, S600L and S65L AMG are sold, and we are soon to get the S320 CDI - measured at 8.3l/100km (28.3mpg). A diesel engine in such a large sedan seems like the optimal combination to me, given the low-rev, high-torque characteristics of most modern diesel engines.
I doubt we will see anything resembling an E200, but I would be surprised if six-cylinder 7-serieses and S-classes don't make a return. They're still quite big and powerful.
Four-cylinders in the likes of the 3-series and C-class seem possible but doubtful. Part of owning a luxury car is having a big, oversized engine (to one extent or another).
I agree but I think that part will soon change..
The Mercedes 3.7(?) litre engine is quite powerful. I don't see why buyers in the US wouldn't be interested in S or SL Class with this engine.
Quote from: Yawn on June 10, 2008, 09:58:00 AM
I agree but I think that part will soon change..
No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.
And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).
Quote from: 93JC on June 10, 2008, 10:10:48 AM
No, it will never change.
You sound like a GM or Ford employee...
What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?
Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?
You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."
Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.
From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.
Quote from: 93JC on June 10, 2008, 10:27:40 AM
What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?
Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?
You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."
Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.
From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.
:hesaid:
People who buy luxury cars (at least
new luxury cars) still aren't as affected by gas prices as people who buy family cars. While I can imagine the typical lux buyer going for something like an E280 or GS250 over a similarly-priced C350 or IS350, most buyers shopping the entry-lux market would just take a fully loaded 4-cylinder Camcord over a smaller-engine C-class or Lexus IS if they wanted to save $$$.
You may remember that the previous Cadillac CTS offered a smaller 2.8 engine, but noone bought it because it was hopelessly outgunned by V6 family sedans. Even if that was when gas was less than $3.00/gal, the 2.8 CTS just managed to get a whopping 1 mpg better than the 3.6 engine. Certainly that won't be the case for all luxury cars with downsized engines, but the principle of diminishing returns still remains in play. Luxury cars are heavy, almost by definition. Beyond considerable technological improvements, it would be too much to ask for a sub-200hp engine to pull 3500-4000 lbs and return a combined 30 mpg.
I was tempted to get and tried the Audi A6 2.0T, then I tested the VW Passat 3.2 AWD with DSG and ...
If those big luxury cars didn't say S550, 600 etc and they just were the "S-class" and each person could just choose whether or not they wanted the bigger engine without the numbers being written down somewhere on the car, I bet you many more people would buy the smaller, more fuel efficient cars.
For example, the S430 was plenty powerful, but everyone would always get the S500 despite their most likely never using the power advantage of the 500. I rarely see an S430, but the S500 is all over the place.
Similarly I don't think I've even seen an S450 before, even though I know they sell it.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on June 10, 2008, 12:26:52 PM
If those big luxury cars didn't say S550, 600 etc and they just were the "S-class" and each person could just choose whether or not they wanted the bigger engine without the numbers being written down somewhere on the car, I bet you many more people would buy the smaller, more fuel efficient cars.
For example, the S430 was plenty powerful, but everyone would always get the S500 despite their most likely never using the power advantage of the 500. I rarely see an S430, but the S500 is all over the place.
There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car. I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.
Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. :loopy:
Quote from: The Pirate on June 10, 2008, 08:53:04 PM
There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car. I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.
Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. :loopy:
I hate cars like that. Talk about just wanting to show off.
Quote from: hotrodalex on June 10, 2008, 08:57:16 PM
I hate cars like that. Talk about just wanting to show offbeing retarded.
there
Quote from: 93JC on June 10, 2008, 10:10:48 AM
No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.
And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).
Plenty of people drove Diesel S-classes in the 80's. Not exactly rockets, those cars were.
Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.
People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.
Quote from: The Pirate on June 10, 2008, 08:53:04 PM
There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car. I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.
Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. :loopy:
I saw an S-430 with S-55 badging once.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 10, 2008, 09:29:46 PM
Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.
People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.
Bless you for using that phrase properly.
Quote from: 93JC on June 10, 2008, 10:10:48 AM
No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.
And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).
I want to special-order a 7.0 litre V8 Caprice. Pedestrians beware - two-tonnes, five and a half metres and five hundred and ten horses coming through!
Quote from: 93JC on June 10, 2008, 10:27:40 AM
What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?
Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?
You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."
Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.
From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.
I meant your attitude that things will never change. I'm sure that's the kind of thinking that got those companies into the mess they are in now.
I agree with you to an extent but a lot of Mercedes and BMW owners probably don't exceed the highway/motorway speed limit. They would never take advantage of the power that some of these engines offer.
Also, if gas prices keep rising, maybe mainstream cars will downsize, making a smaller engined luxury car more acceptable. Plus, people want to feel good about themselves by driving something supposedly good for the environment (i.e. Prius) so there is that angle to consider, too.
In Europe, diesel engined luxury cars are popular with company car drivers. Maybe company car drivers in the USA would be happy to lower their fuel bills by choosing a slightly smaller engine?
I'm not talking stupidly underpowered, I'm thinking along the lines of the SL350 (over 300 bhp).
Quote from: GoCougs on June 10, 2008, 09:29:46 PM
Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.
People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.
Most of you are outside of California where you dont have that mentality. Most people outside of California who buy those cars are rich and could care less. In California where its the largest market share in the state, you see people with the S350's, the older SL 300's.. The older 735i, etc.. I think the market is there
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on June 11, 2008, 12:55:55 AM
I meant your attitude that things will never change. I'm sure that's the kind of thinking that got those companies into the mess they are in now.
To the contrary, I'm starting to believe that nothing really changed, and Ford and GM got into the messes they're in now because they anticipated changes that never happened.
QuoteI agree with you to an extent but a lot of Mercedes and BMW owners probably don't exceed the highway/motorway speed limit. They would never take advantage of the power that some of these engines offer.
Neither will Bugatti Veyron owners, but that didn't stop them from buying the blingiest bling in the world. It's not about taking advantage of that power: it's about simply having it.
QuoteAlso, if gas prices keep rising, maybe mainstream cars will downsize, making a smaller engined luxury car more acceptable.
I think that will happen, but I don't think it will affect luxury cars very much.
QuotePlus, people want to feel good about themselves by driving something supposedly good for the environment (i.e. Prius) so there is that angle to consider, too.
They buy Priuses and such for that though, not Mercedes-Benzes. Sales of hybrids other than the Prius are mediocre, because a hybrid powertrain in an otherwise normal wrapper doesn't say "I'm an environmentally conscious person" like a Prius does.
QuoteIn Europe, diesel engined luxury cars are popular with company car drivers. Maybe company car drivers in the USA would be happy to lower their fuel bills by choosing a slightly smaller engine?
1. "Company cars" are quite rare, and are often a fleet vehicle for the company as a whole anyway, not someone's take-home car.
2. Companies that have the money for company cars generally have the money to buy whatever powertrain they want.
3. Company cars are usually average, everyday mid-sized sedans (Camry, Accord, Impala and the like).
QuoteI'm not talking stupidly underpowered, I'm thinking along the lines of the SL350 (over 300 bhp).
I foretold the return of big sixes in many of these cars, because, as I said, they're still quite powerful. What we won't see, at least in the next decade or two, will be things like E200s. 523i's, maybe, but not the piddly four-bangers.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 10, 2008, 09:29:46 PM
People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.
Right, but the prospect of owning an E-class Benz for C-class money would be more of a selling point than fuel economy. That's a major reason the 5-series and the 3-series (and 1-series!) share the same base engine in the US.
Quote from: Submariner on June 10, 2008, 09:28:04 PM
Plenty of people drove Diesel S-classes in the 80's. Not exactly rockets, those cars were.
Neither were the 180-hp Coupe DeVilles and 150-hp Lincoln Continentals of the time, either. Compared to those cars, a diesel S-class could at least hold its own.
Quote from: Yawn on June 10, 2008, 07:28:46 AM
With the gas prices going through the roof, do you the think more Lux brands in the states will start offering smaller fuel efficient engines in its larger sedans. Since these choices are offered elsewhere, it would not be so difficult to bring here.. They were even sold here in the past anyways before the horsepower wars started.
S300, E200, A6 2.0, 730i, etc..
E200? :mask:
I'm all for these things but the E200 from the W210 E-Class was a slug. The E200 Kompressor that came after the facelift was much better but it's not very agile in the E-Class (I've driven it) because the car is too heavy.
I didn't know there was a such thing as an E200. It's an E-class with a 2.0 4cyl, right? :banghead:
heres one I wouldn't mind having:
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/539377
e38 7 series 730d. 3 liter diesel and about 32 mpg
In Regensburg I have an A6 2.0 Turbo...Its nice.. works good for me..
Quote from: ChrisV on June 12, 2008, 06:46:11 AM
heres one I wouldn't mind having:
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/539377
e38 7 series 730d. 3 liter diesel and about 32 mpg
I really like those gauge chromed rings, not to mention the massage seats, full leather treatment, ambient lighting and power trunk. Yes, I am a goodies junkie. :lol:
What kind of transmission does it have? I'd assume manual?
Quote from: 2o6 on June 11, 2008, 10:41:39 PM
I didn't know there was a such thing as an E200. It's an E-class with a 2.0 4cyl, right? :banghead:
I think is a supercharged 1.8L I4 but I might be wrong.
Quote from: AltinD on June 12, 2008, 09:11:10 AM
I think is a supercharged 1.8L I4 but I might be wrong.
I believe you're right.
They are all over Italy.. Most E Classes I see are either E200 OR 220..
^^ The E220 is diesel powered.
BTW, do they still have a E230 (same 1.8 supercharged engine) with 163HP? And what about the E280, what size is the V6 there?
Quote from: AltinD on June 13, 2008, 05:07:16 AM
^^ The E220 is diesel powered.
BTW, do they still have a E230 (same 1.8 supercharged engine) with 163HP? And what about the E280, what size is the V6 there?
The 280 is a 3.0 litre V6 (same engine as 350 but with less power I think).
Not sure about the 230 but I think it has been discontinued.
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 11, 2008, 10:49:26 AM
Right, but the prospect of owning an E-class Benz for C-class money would be more of a selling point than fuel economy. That's a major reason the 5-series and the 3-series (and 1-series!) share the same base engine in the US.
Fair enough, but I'd imagine that M_B USA would not want to see cannibalization of S-class sales by the C-class.
The price disparity between base (i.e., w/3.0L I6) 1, 3, and 5 series is still significant.
I have to admit, I see vanity compelling someone to buy an S-Class with a V6. If money is that tight and/or MPG that important, S-Class probably shouldn't be on the shopping list.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 13, 2008, 12:27:16 PM
Fair enough, but I'd imagine that M_B USA would not want to see cannibalization of S-class sales by the C-class.
The price disparity between base (i.e., w/3.0L I6) 1, 3, and 5 series is still significant.
I have to admit, I see vanity compelling someone to buy an S-Class with a V6. If money is that tight and/or MPG that important, S-Class probably shouldn't be on the shopping list.
It's not that money or mpg is important to those shoppers at all, really. It's more about preferring to own a CLS350 over a similarly priced E550 (people would gravitate more strongly to the higher-end body style than to the bigger engine)
The current E200 is an E200 Kompressor. On the previous W210 it was at first an E200 with 136-hp an later an E200 Kompressor with about 160-horsepower. Current W211 E200 Kompressor is a supercharged 1.8-l 4-cylinder with 183-horsepower.
Current E230 is not a 4-cylinder but a 2.5-l V6 with 204-horsepower. :ohyeah:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 14, 2008, 02:13:07 AM
The current E200 is an E200 Kompressor. On the previous W210 it was at first an E200 with 136-hp an later an E200 Kompressor with about 160-horsepower. Current W211 E200 Kompressor is a supercharged 1.8-l 4-cylinder with 183-horsepower.
Current E230 is not a 4-cylinder but a 2.5-l V6 with 204-horsepower. :ohyeah:
Who is buying an E 200 Kompressor, a C 180 Kompressor or an S 320 CDI?
It's those people that like the ride characteristics, looks, interior / ride comfort of these cars along with the nice features they can be equipped with (massaging seats, high-end audio, night vision whatever...). Safety aspects are an important issue too.
It's the same group of people who can enjoy a good red wine (heck a 2 Euro "headache wine" offers more buck for the money measured in Liter per Dollar), it's the group of people who would prefer traditionally made Italian Food at "name your local real Italian trattoria here" over microwave-stuff (even the microwave stuffs gives you more kilo per Dollar).
It's the same people who prefer to live in a real house with 2500 sq-ft than in a run-down storage-building with 10000 sq-ft (that would give you more sq-ft per Dollar)
(of course these things are exaggerated and do not exclude each other, i.e. one may drive a Dacia Logan and enjoy a good meal :lol:)
It's a matter of preferences, 220 hp in an S-Class are more than enough to comfortably drive everywhere roads will take you. Heck, even 150 hp would be. People put solar panels up on EUR 1 million + houses not because they can't swallow the electrical bill, but because they don't want to. It's a matter of preference, some prefer a small car with a lot of power while some prefer a luxury sedan with adequate power.
Saying that an S-Class with a small engine is not feasible because "those people" do not care about the fuel costs is not correct, smart people calculate the cost of a car based not only because of the purchase price but based on the full operational costs. so if I spent less on fuel costs later on I may buy a more expensive car from the beginning (or get more equipment with a lesser engine). I think its a smart move, and I am all for the manufacturers to offer these cars. I don't understand however, why Audi, BMW and Mercedes are not capitalizing on the small engines they already have in Europe and offer them in the US, but I guess its only a matter of time until we see the E200 Kompressor in the US (or the E 220 CDI )
I think you underestimate how much power is valued by North American consumers. For example, take the Mk V Golf/Rabbit.
In Germany the base engine is a 1.4 L I4 with 80 PS, correct?
In North America it is a 2.5 L I5 with 170 hp. It was 150 hp until this year: power was increased after many complaints that it was too slow...
Like I said, an S350 is not out of the realm of possibility, because 272 hp is still quite powerful, and I think they would sell even though lesser fare like Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys and such encroach on it.
But a 183 hp E-class? Sorry, not happening. Ford had enough trouble trying to sell a 201 hp Five Hundred.
Quote from: 93JC on June 15, 2008, 05:54:32 PM
I think you underestimate how much power is valued by North American consumers. For example, take the Mk V Golf/Rabbit.
In Germany the base engine is a 1.4 L I4 with 80 PS, correct?
In North America it is a 2.5 L I5 with 170 hp. It was 150 hp until this year: power was increased after many complaints that it was too slow...
Like I said, an S350 is not out of the realm of possibility, because 272 hp is still quite powerful, and I think they would sell even though lesser fare like Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys and such encroach on it.
But a 183 hp E-class? Sorry, not happening. Ford had enough trouble trying to sell a 201 hp Five Hundred.
That was because it was a Ford. In 2004-2005, BMW had no problems moving its 184 hp 525i in the US.
And they ditched it. And BMW sells more cars now than they did then.
What does that say for the popularity of the old 525i?
Quote from: 93JC on June 16, 2008, 12:34:20 PM
And they ditched it. And BMW sells more cars now than they did then.
What does that say for the popularity of the old 525i?
No, they didn't ditch it. They gave that model more power, as they did to the rest of the E60, over time. The 530i started out with 225 hp from an M54, then went to 255 in 2006 with the N52 engine, and is now the 535i with 300 hp and an N54 engine. In 2006, the 545i with 325 hp, became the 550i with 360 hp. In the same way, the 525i started out with 184 hp, went to 215 hp, and is now the 528i with 230 hp.
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 16, 2008, 10:50:27 PM
No, they didn't ditch it. They gave that model more power, as they did to the rest of the E60, over time. The 530i started out with 225 hp from an M54, then went to 255 in 2006 with the N52 engine, and is now the 535i with 300 hp and an N54 engine. In 2006, the 545i with 325 hp, became the 550i with 360 hp. In the same way, the 525i started out with 184 hp, went to 215 hp, and is now the 528i with 230 hp.
You're just proving JC correct... there's been an upward move in horsepower over the years.
A 4 cylinder Accord will get you more HP than an old 525i would.
Quote from: thecarnut on June 16, 2008, 11:01:12 PM
You're just proving JC correct... there's been an upward move in horsepower over the years.
A 4 cylinder Accord will get you more HP than an old 525i would.
No one's denying that the Accord would get you more power. What's your point? :huh:
They didn't ditch the least powerful model. The 528i is still overpowered by Camry, Accords, and even Hyundais now. That doesn't stop it from selling, now does it? BMW never ditched the 525i, they just kept refreshing it, as they did to the rest of the 5-series lineup.
Even with rising fuel costs and environmental concerns Americans still want massive power in their cars? AND EXPECT THEM TO DO 40 MPG? :lol:
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 16, 2008, 11:08:25 PM
No one's denying that the Accord would get you more power. What's your point? :huh:
They didn't ditch the least powerful model. The 528i is still overpowered by Camry, Accords, and even Hyundais now. That doesn't stop it from selling, now does it? BMW never ditched the 525i, they just kept refreshing it, as they did to the rest of the 5-series lineup.
My point is that BMW keeps increasing the power, showing that people still do want more power and won't settle for something that's just adequate. The 4 cylinder Accord example shows how you can now get more HP from a sub $20k Accord than you could in a $40k + BMW. That's why BMW has to keep updating their engines.
And they sell a lot more 535 and 550's than 528's (at least around here).
Thats before the rising fuel costs.. lol
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 17, 2008, 01:03:23 AM
Even with rising fuel costs and environmental concerns Americans still want massive power in their cars? AND EXPECT THEM TO DO 40 MPG? :lol:
Yes!
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 17, 2008, 01:03:23 AM
Even with rising fuel costs and environmental concerns Americans still want massive power in their cars? AND EXPECT THEM TO DO 40 MPG? :lol:
Yes, and they should cost almost nothing, too. And they'll still want a huge discount on top of that!
I spent a few years in the car business. The average American consumer's expectations are as unrealistic as they are contradictory. They want it all, but feel like they shouldn't have to pay for it.
Having to deal with clueless, demanding and unrealistic customers who had no idea what they were on about (but who naturally thought they did) was why I got out of the car business. The lesson I learnt was to never make your hobby your job.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: thecarnut on June 17, 2008, 08:10:53 AM
My point is that BMW keeps increasing the power, showing that people still do want more power and won't settle for something that's just adequate. The 4 cylinder Accord example shows how you can now get more HP from a sub $20k Accord than you could in a $40k + BMW. That's why BMW has to keep updating their engines.
And they sell a lot more 535 and 550's than 528's (at least around here).
Around here, they sell about equal amounts of 528xi's and 535xi's. There aren't many RWD cars.
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 17, 2008, 03:21:49 PM
Around here, they sell about equal amounts of 528xi's and 535xi's. There aren't many RWD cars.
That's funny. You guys need AWD like once a year down there. We don't even get that much snow up here in Albany, compared to where I used to live (Buffalo area).
Quote from: The Pirate on June 17, 2008, 03:34:49 PM
That's funny. You guys need AWD like once a year down there. We don't even get that much snow up here in Albany, compared to where I used to live (Buffalo area).
Srsly.
People are such wimps. :devil:
It's crazy how what was once considered quick is now "painfully slow". Then again cars are a lot heavier now a days.
Quote from: The Pirate on June 17, 2008, 03:34:49 PM
That's funny. You guys need AWD like once a year down there. We don't even get that much snow up here in Albany, compared to where I used to live (Buffalo area).
I agree.
Quote from: Madman on June 17, 2008, 03:20:15 PM
The lesson I learnt was to never make your hobby your job.
Amen.
Quote from: Madman on June 17, 2008, 03:20:15 PM
Yes, and they should cost almost nothing, too. And they'll still want a huge discount on top of that!
I spent a few years in the car business. The average American consumer's expectations are as unrealistic as they are contradictory. They want it all, but feel like they shouldn't have to pay for it.
... clueless, demanding and unrealistic customers who had no idea what they were on about (but who naturally thought they did)
AMEN!!!