Volkswagen unveils plans for four new vehicles; U.S. dealers eagerly await minivan and more
DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News
Posted Date: 8/1/05
Volkswagen of America Inc. will leap into four new product segments by the end of 2007, part of an all-out effort to rebuild the VW brand in the United States.
Long-suffering dealers will get a convertible, a small SUV, a minivan and a big luxury coupe.
The plans were unveiled to dealers July 15 by Wolfgang Bernhard, the energetic former Chrysler group COO who now heads the global VW brand in Wolfsburg, Germany.
Bernhard brought down the house at the annual dealer meeting in Dallas, taking the wraps off three vehicles and showing pictures of a fourth.
The four models on the way are:
1. A 2+2 convertible with an electric foldaway roof that would be a halo vehicle.
2. A small SUV to compete with the Jeep Liberty and Honda CR-V.
3. A seven-seat minivan - a year after VW killed plans to build the Microbus minivan.
4. A four-door "coupe" similar to the Mercedes-Benz CLS that would be placed above the Passat sedan.
All four vehicles will be introduced by the end of 2007, says Bob Grace, chairman of the dealer council and owner of Southpoint Volkswagen in Baton Rouge, La.
"The dealer group is fired up," Grace says. Bernhard "gave us a no-nonsense view of his vision to bring us to a full-range franchise in a couple of years."
VW division's U.S. sales have been on a sharp decline, falling 15.4 percent in 2004 and down 23.5 percent during the first six months of this year. The company is in the midst of replacing or doing face-lifts on all its major vehicles.
Bernhard took over as head of the VW brand this year and has made the United States a priority. VWoA boss Len Hunt says Bernhard plans to bring exciting vehicles to North America and brought the proof to Dallas.
"Bernhard was just spectacular," Hunt says. "He was the star of the show. He was very frank with the dealers. He made a commitment to North America that was very genuinely put across."
Convertible first
The first vehicle to arrive will be the convertible, which goes into production in Portugal in January and will be on sale in the United States in May. For now, it's called the Concept C - after the concept car that debuted at the Geneva auto show in 2004. Hunt says the production name will be announced at the Frankfurt auto show in September.
"It is an awesome car," says Chris Curran, owner of Curran Volkswagen in Stratford, Conn. "It has a hard top. It will create a lot of excitement because it is different, new and designed from scratch to be a convertible."
The Concept C is larger than a Jetta but smaller than the redesigned 2006 Passat that began arriving in dealerships last week. Hunt says he expects annual sales of about 15,000 convertibles in the United States. Pricing hasn't been set but is expected to be about $30,000.
SUV, minivan fill voids
Both the small SUV and the minivan were designed with the United States in mind, dealers say. The SUV has been described by Curran as a "little brother of the Touareg," VW's SUV.
"The entry-level SUV is one of the hottest markets now, and we saw a new SUV that everybody is excited about," Curran says.
Dealers complained loudly to VW executives in Germany after the Microbus was killed last year. The new minivan is a different concept from the retro-looking Microbus, dealers say.
They say they need a seven-seat minivan to retain VW buyers with growing families. Bernhard provided only sketchy details of the minivan. Dealers saw only a photograph.
Hunt says Bernhard told dealers: "I know you want a seven-seater, and I'm committed to going into that segment."
Above the Passat
Hunt says the four-door "coupe" will be above the Passat but won't be as expensive as the Phaeton luxury sedan. The Phaeton is priced at $67,355, with shipping. The VW car is similar in concept to the Mercedes-Benz CLS, which is styled as a sleek two-seater but has four doors.
"This is another area where we do not compete," Curran says. "There are a lot of BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes and Acuras sold around here. We need a presence for our owners" in the segment.
Prices weren't disclosed. Hunt says, "It will still be affordable."
VW last week began delivering the 2006 Passat to dealers. The new Passat will be a major step in reversing what Kevin Eckhart, owner of Santa Barbara Volkswagen in Santa Barbara, Calif., says "has been a long dry spell."
"I got my Passats today," he says, "and once they see them, drive them and see the pricing, it will be no problem selling them."
As for the future, Eckhart and other dealers feel more secure with Bernhard at the helm.
"Wolfgang Bernhard brings a different North American viewpoint to Germany," Eckhart says. "He is a proven performance in North America, and he's set to prove we can win."
VW needs a hit, and a small SUV should be able to be that unless they grossly overprice it. The Passat can't hurt either. Have they already released pricing?
QuoteVW needs a hit, and a small SUV should be able to be that unless they grossly overprice it. The Passat can't hurt either. Have they already released pricing?
I dont think so. I have seen pictures of the small SUV doing laps at the Nurburgring, and it looks absolutely hideous. I doubt they have a hit on their hands with this SUV.
If it looks like that, it's not going anywhere. If it looks as attractive as everything else they've put out recently, even if it looks as bland as the new Jetta, it'll do fine.
QuoteIf it looks like that, it's not going anywhere. If it looks as attractive as everything else they've put out recently, even if it looks as bland as the new Jetta, it'll do fine.
I'll dig up a picture for you.
I know which pic you're talking about.
QuoteI know which pic you're talking about.
So what do you think about the styling of that car?
As I said, I hope it looks nothing like that pic.
QuoteAs I said, I hope it looks nothing like that pic.
Not very likely, as the vehicle in the picture I recall looked production ready.
I trust them to do better than that. If they don't, they will deserve it when it flops.
I don't see the US embracing a VW minivan, but of course we have not seen it and know nothing about it yet...but if they make the small SUV cute enough that will be a sure hit.
No reason a minivan wouldn't sell well, VW has a decent image for everything but reliability.
No suv will look good taking a turn on a track at high speeds/
QuoteNo suv will look good taking a turn on a track at high speeds/
I wasnt talking about that...I just think the overall design is hideous. It looks squashed, IMO.
QuoteNo suv will look good taking a turn on a track at high speeds/
(http://www.autoweek.com/images/news/102588.jpg)
(http://www.autoweek.com/files/weekart/2005/0620/crossgolf_rear.jpg)
EDIT: First pic isn't working, here's the link:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102588 (http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102588)
QuoteQuoteNo suv will look good taking a turn on a track at high speeds/
I wasnt talking about that...I just think the overall design is hideous. It looks squashed, IMO.
The porportions will look better when it is sitting still.
QuoteQuoteQuoteNo suv will look good taking a turn on a track at high speeds/
I wasnt talking about that...I just think the overall design is hideous. It looks squashed, IMO.
The porportions will look better when it is sitting still.
We shall see about that :)
In the first pic the body is raised higher than in the second pic on the track. Does it have an air suspension similar it's big brother?
Good lord, is VW trying to run the company into the ground.
Ifcar wrote:
"VW needs a hit, and a small SUV should be able to be that unless they grossly overprice it."
Seriously what are the chances of it being priced around its rivals.
VW in general charges a premium price on any model, i'm sure their compact SUV will be no different.
As for rebuilding its U.S. image, how about this. Try and build a VW that could surpass a korean car in reliability. I mean seriosly just stop building junk and perception will go way up, also cutting prices alittle would help. Not too many people fall for that "German Engineering" and "europeon handling" that VW used to run on.
Nowadays you can get a equally well designed interior, better performance, worlds better reliability and a cheaper pricetag in many japanese rivals. The last thing VW needs is more expensive high end cars that will compete in price with audi's, and compete in reliability with chinese knockoffs.
Party Pooper!
go away
it's the party pooper. :lol:
Quote
As for rebuilding its U.S. image, how about this. Try and build a VW that could surpass a korean car in reliability. I mean seriosly just stop building junk and perception will go way up, also cutting prices alittle would help. Not too many people fall for that "German Engineering" and "europeon handling" that VW used to run on.
Nowadays you can get a equally well designed interior, better performance, worlds better reliability and a cheaper pricetag in many japanese rivals. The last thing VW needs is more expensive high end cars that will compete in price with audi's, and compete in reliability with chinese knockoffs.
My Passat's been dead reliable. 12K miles.
And what car, for the price has a better interior? The Accord and Camry are nowhere near as well put together as the Passat is, the new Jetta is leagues beyond the Civic and Corolla. Nor are the Accord and Camry sportier models--true, the V6 models are fast to 60, but handling can't touch the Passat's (I don't know about the Jetta vs. Civic/Corolla), nor are they nearly as involving as the Passat.
Even an example of a car that is below-average for reliability overall still is unlikely to have reliability issues that early. Thus, owner examples here and there can't provide worthwhile evidence either way.
And a Passat and Jetta should have better interiors than their Toyota and Honda counterparts considering how much more expensive they are. And neither the Passat nor the Jetta (old or new) are the best-handling cars in their respective classes.
QuoteQuote
As for rebuilding its U.S. image, how about this. Try and build a VW that could surpass a korean car in reliability. I mean seriosly just stop building junk and perception will go way up, also cutting prices alittle would help. Not too many people fall for that "German Engineering" and "europeon handling" that VW used to run on.
Nowadays you can get a equally well designed interior, better performance, worlds better reliability and a cheaper pricetag in many japanese rivals. The last thing VW needs is more expensive high end cars that will compete in price with audi's, and compete in reliability with chinese knockoffs.
My Passat's been dead reliable. 12K miles.
And what car, for the price has a better interior? The Accord and Camry are nowhere near as well put together as the Passat is, the new Jetta is leagues beyond the Civic and Corolla. Nor are the Accord and Camry sportier models--true, the V6 models are fast to 60, but handling can't touch the Passat's (I don't know about the Jetta vs. Civic/Corolla), nor are they nearly as involving as the Passat.
I'm glad your enjoying your car. Too bad that when you factor in several others ownership experiences they(VW) fall to the bottom of the list.
I've always stated that VW makes some of the nicest interiors around(i don't like the new jetta that much, but my bro's 01 was gorgeous).
However to most people(me/my brother who will never own a VW again), the pretty interior and the badge(which leads to warm fuzzy feelings of german quality/etc) don't outweigh the breakdowns, electrical problem and in the case of several 1.8T owners, premature timing belt failure which leads to a hefty repair bill.
As i've stated VW cars are nicely designed and pleasing to the eye(though i think they took a huge step down with the new jetta), its the low rent quality that barely surpasses a 5 year old hyundai thats the big turn off to anyone who cares about reliability. I seriously believe that is hurting them the most.
QuoteEven an example of a car that is below-average for reliability overall still is unlikely to have reliability issues that early. Thus, owner examples here and there can't provide worthwhile evidence either way.
And a Passat and Jetta should have better interiors than their Toyota and Honda counterparts considering how much more expensive they are. And neither the Passat nor the Jetta (old or new) are the best-handling cars in their respective classes.
What handles better than the Passat? Certainly not the Camry or Accord, and the Altima is too sqirrely at high speeds to be considered better.
Mazda6, TSX.
QuoteQuoteEven an example of a car that is below-average for reliability overall still is unlikely to have reliability issues that early. Thus, owner examples here and there can't provide worthwhile evidence either way.
And a Passat and Jetta should have better interiors than their Toyota and Honda counterparts considering how much more expensive they are. And neither the Passat nor the Jetta (old or new) are the best-handling cars in their respective classes.
What handles better than the Passat? Certainly not the Camry or Accord, and the Altima is too sqirrely at high speeds to be considered better.
He did say passat and Jetta, having driven jetta's often i would agree that there handling abillities are somewhat mythical(they are good handlers) but i wouldn't call them the best by no means.
QuoteMazda6, TSX.
I don't know about the Mazda6 (maybe marginally), and the TSX isn't in the same class. It's a TL, 3er, G35, C, A4 competitor. The monthly payments between my Passat and a TSX were roughly a Honda Civic apart.
QuoteQuoteQuoteEven an example of a car that is below-average for reliability overall still is unlikely to have reliability issues that early. Thus, owner examples here and there can't provide worthwhile evidence either way.
And a Passat and Jetta should have better interiors than their Toyota and Honda counterparts considering how much more expensive they are. And neither the Passat nor the Jetta (old or new) are the best-handling cars in their respective classes.
What handles better than the Passat? Certainly not the Camry or Accord, and the Altima is too sqirrely at high speeds to be considered better.
He did say passat and Jetta, having driven jetta's often i would agree that there handling abillities are somewhat mythical(they are good handlers) but i wouldn't call them the best by no means.
I've never driven a Jetta, but I've driven the shit out of a Passat...I know the ins and outs of its handling, and I'm positive that it's the best car in its class--otherwise I wouldn't have bought it.
QuoteQuoteMazda6, TSX.
I don't know about the Mazda6 (maybe marginally), and the TSX isn't in the same class. It's a TL, 3er, G35, C, A4 competitor. The monthly payments between my Passat and a TSX were roughly a Honda Civic apart.
How does the TSX compete with the TL???
Anyway last time i checked the TSX came in at around 24K base price. Thats about what C&D's new jetta cost with the base I-5.
TSX starts at about $27K, not $24k.
QuoteQuoteQuoteMazda6, TSX.
I don't know about the Mazda6 (maybe marginally), and the TSX isn't in the same class. It's a TL, 3er, G35, C, A4 competitor. The monthly payments between my Passat and a TSX were roughly a Honda Civic apart.
How does the TSX compete with the TL???
Anyway last time i checked the TSX came in at around 24K base price. Thats about what C&D's new jetta cost with the base I-5.
The TSX is like 28 grand, and has a lease price a few dollars less than my E class, a car that costs almost double. For those who don't lease, that's not an issue, but I take it into account. They wanted roughly $215 more a month for a TSX than my Passat, which was only 3 grand cheaper (over the same period). If the TSX had been a viable choice, I would have gotten it.
Thanks iffy, its been about a week since i was looking at acura's website.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMazda6, TSX.
I don't know about the Mazda6 (maybe marginally), and the TSX isn't in the same class. It's a TL, 3er, G35, C, A4 competitor. The monthly payments between my Passat and a TSX were roughly a Honda Civic apart.
How does the TSX compete with the TL???
Anyway last time i checked the TSX came in at around 24K base price. Thats about what C&D's new jetta cost with the base I-5.
The TSX is like 28 grand, and has a lease price a few dollars less than my E class, a car that costs almost double. For those who don't lease, that's not an issue, but I take it into account. They wanted roughly $215 more a month for a TSX than my Passat, which was only 3 grand cheaper (over the same period). If the TSX had been a viable choice, I would have gotten it.
Well leasing is obviously different then buying(personally i would never lease), so it is giving the cars kind of a unfare price comparison. Sticking to MSRP is probobly the best way to compare cars.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMazda6, TSX.
I don't know about the Mazda6 (maybe marginally), and the TSX isn't in the same class. It's a TL, 3er, G35, C, A4 competitor. The monthly payments between my Passat and a TSX were roughly a Honda Civic apart.
How does the TSX compete with the TL???
Anyway last time i checked the TSX came in at around 24K base price. Thats about what C&D's new jetta cost with the base I-5.
The TSX is like 28 grand, and has a lease price a few dollars less than my E class, a car that costs almost double. For those who don't lease, that's not an issue, but I take it into account. They wanted roughly $215 more a month for a TSX than my Passat, which was only 3 grand cheaper (over the same period). If the TSX had been a viable choice, I would have gotten it.
Well leasing is obviously different then buying(personally i would never lease), so it is giving the cars kind of a unfare price comparison. Sticking to MSRP is probobly the best way to compare cars.
A lot of people lease, so it's a viable comparison. I mean, it costs as much to lease a Town Car as it does an S500, roughly. It's important.
Raza was explaining his personal reason for not choosing the TSX. If you're leasing, you compare lease rates rather than MSRPs.
I understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
QuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
QuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
I'm aware that the TSX has a pretty high base price, but it is fully loaded.
Boy, i'm glad i missed that comparo, sounds like a cluster f*ck.
Anyway i have a hard time believing you can get a passat for 22K that offers anywhere near the equipment that the TSX offers, but maybe i'm wrong, i don't visit dealer sights very often.
QuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
I'm aware that the TSX has a pretty high base price, but it is fully loaded.
Boy, i'm glad i missed that comparo, sounds like a cluster f*ck.
Anyway i have a hard time believing you can get a passat for 22K that offers anywhere near the equipment that the TSX offers, but maybe i'm wrong, i don't visit dealer sights very often.
The window sticker won't say 22K, but you can talk it down. I believe the sticker on my car was 25 or 26, but I think overall we got it down to 20 or 21.
QuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
Comparing the "walk-away" price of one car to the sticker price of another is clearly going to lead to a large discrepancy.
Well i did a quick build of a passat with the 1.8T, only options where leather and a 6 disc changer.
27,084, looking at the standard features it appears to be well appointed, i'm sure its missing a few things that the acura has but overall they are close and comparable.
a 6 speed TSX starts at 27,190.
You get 30 more HP a extra gear and better reliability in the acura for about a 106 dollars. Comparable but i'm sure the TSX would compete better(size, performance wise) with a GLS(whatever the performance model is) Jetta.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
I'm aware that the TSX has a pretty high base price, but it is fully loaded.
Boy, i'm glad i missed that comparo, sounds like a cluster f*ck.
Anyway i have a hard time believing you can get a passat for 22K that offers anywhere near the equipment that the TSX offers, but maybe i'm wrong, i don't visit dealer sights very often.
The window sticker won't say 22K, but you can talk it down. I believe the sticker on my car was 25 or 26, but I think overall we got it down to 20 or 21.
Are you talking about leftovers from a previous year, or special deals on slow selling lot cars?
QuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
Comparing the "walk-away" price of one car to the sticker price of another is clearly going to lead to a large discrepancy.
28 grand WAS the walkaway price of the TSX. Might just be a shitty dealer, but if it were possible, my bias isn't strong enough for me to have walked away from the TSX--I'd have gotten it if they would have played ball.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
I'm aware that the TSX has a pretty high base price, but it is fully loaded.
Boy, i'm glad i missed that comparo, sounds like a cluster f*ck.
Anyway i have a hard time believing you can get a passat for 22K that offers anywhere near the equipment that the TSX offers, but maybe i'm wrong, i don't visit dealer sights very often.
The window sticker won't say 22K, but you can talk it down. I believe the sticker on my car was 25 or 26, but I think overall we got it down to 20 or 21.
Are you talking about leftovers from a previous year, or special deals on slow selling lot cars?
Nope. It was a 2004.5 that I got in August. They went to New York to get it for me.
QuoteWell i did a quick build of a passat with the 1.8T, only options where leather and a 6 disc changer.
27,084, looking at the standard features it appears to be well appointed, i'm sure its missing a few things that the acura has but overall they are close and comparable.
a 6 speed TSX starts at 27,190.
You get 30 more HP a extra gear and better reliability in the acura for about a 106 dollars. Comparable but i'm sure the TSX would compete better(size, performance wise) with a GLS(whatever the performance model is) Jetta.
Or you can compare Edmunds TMV:
Passat with those options: $25,297
TSX: $26,741
The TSX has some extra features, and the 05 Passat is currently being cleared out, but there's more of a difference than the stickers show.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
Comparing the "walk-away" price of one car to the sticker price of another is clearly going to lead to a large discrepancy.
28 grand WAS the walkaway price of the TSX. Might just be a shitty dealer, but if it were possible, my bias isn't strong enough for me to have walked away from the TSX--I'd have gotten it if they would have played ball.
Had it just come out when you were shopping, and was the car you were looking at equipped with the nav? If not, that's a terrible price.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI understand that he was describing his situation and reasons.
But saying the TSX competes with the TL and G35 simply based on lease rates(which are a ripoff half the time, see raza's S500 town car comment), is a load of crap IMO.
Cars compete with eachother based on MSRP, otherwise you would see some pretty f'ed up magazine comparo's.
Well, the TSX's base price sticks it up there with the 3 box class. 28 grand? A discerning buyer can walk away with a decent Passat for 22. Every comparo I've seen with the TSX stacks it against cars like the C230 Sports Sedan, Saab 9-3, E46 325i, and that ludicrous 11 car comparo in which it beat the G35, 325i, IS300, C230K, Evo, and WRX in Automobile, when it was either the worst or second worst in every performance category.
Comparing the "walk-away" price of one car to the sticker price of another is clearly going to lead to a large discrepancy.
28 grand WAS the walkaway price of the TSX. Might just be a shitty dealer, but if it were possible, my bias isn't strong enough for me to have walked away from the TSX--I'd have gotten it if they would have played ball.
Had it just come out when you were shopping, and was the car you were looking at equipped with the nav? If not, that's a terrible price.
No nav, no options. It was a stick. It might have been in the 27s, but I remember the lease price exactly: $493. My brother's E320: $504. My E320: $550. My Passat: $285. When I went recently with my aunt, they wanted even more (it was an auto).
QuoteQuoteWell i did a quick build of a passat with the 1.8T, only options where leather and a 6 disc changer.
27,084, looking at the standard features it appears to be well appointed, i'm sure its missing a few things that the acura has but overall they are close and comparable.
a 6 speed TSX starts at 27,190.
You get 30 more HP a extra gear and better reliability in the acura for about a 106 dollars. Comparable but i'm sure the TSX would compete better(size, performance wise) with a GLS(whatever the performance model is) Jetta.
Or you can compare Edmunds TMV:
Passat with those options: $25,297
TSX: $26,741
The TSX has some extra features, and the 05 Passat is currently being cleared out, but there's more of a difference than the stickers show.
Still we are talking less than a 1K premium for the Acura, well worth it considering the "extra's" that come with it.
However it does sound like Raza found a crappy dealership trying to squeez its customers dry.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell i did a quick build of a passat with the 1.8T, only options where leather and a 6 disc changer.
27,084, looking at the standard features it appears to be well appointed, i'm sure its missing a few things that the acura has but overall they are close and comparable.
a 6 speed TSX starts at 27,190.
You get 30 more HP a extra gear and better reliability in the acura for about a 106 dollars. Comparable but i'm sure the TSX would compete better(size, performance wise) with a GLS(whatever the performance model is) Jetta.
Or you can compare Edmunds TMV:
Passat with those options: $25,297
TSX: $26,741
The TSX has some extra features, and the 05 Passat is currently being cleared out, but there's more of a difference than the stickers show.
Still we are talking less than a 1K premium for the Acura, well worth it considering the "extra's" that come with it.
However it does sound like Raza found a crappy dealership trying to squeez its customers dry.
If that's how the prices were when I was looking, I'd be driving a TSX now.
Well you shouldn't have leased. :D
QuoteWell you shouldn't have leased. :D
I had a budget and a timetable. I had no choice in this matter, really. They chose what I could buy, and I chose which of those I wanted. And when I wanted the WRX, they gave me the Passat, my second choice.
QuoteQuoteWell you shouldn't have leased. :D
I had a budget and a timetable. I had no choice in this matter, really. They chose what I could buy, and I chose which of those I wanted. And when I wanted the WRX, they gave me the Passat, my second choice.
Was this a company vehicle or something?
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell you shouldn't have leased. :D
I had a budget and a timetable. I had no choice in this matter, really. They chose what I could buy, and I chose which of those I wanted. And when I wanted the WRX, they gave me the Passat, my second choice.
Was this a company vehicle or something?
It is, yes. But it was specifically for me. It was a reward for my largesse--giving my brother my car now (since he really wanted it and couldn't afford to lease a new one) and get one at a cut budget for roughly a year, and then get something new later. Honestly, as much as I like the Passat, I'm really disappointed, because I know what I'm missing from the E320. It does nothing better. The WRX was at least faster and better handling, and a stick. The Passat's not even a stick.
Well then maybe its good that you leased it, i almost could live with anything as long as its a stick and somewhat sporty.
So are the vehicles your looking at supposed to replace the Passat, or are you always going to have a company car.
QuoteWell then maybe its good that you leased it, i almost could live with anything as long as its a stick and somewhat sporty.
So are the vehicles your looking at supposed to replace the Passat, or are you always going to have a company car.
Depends on the tag. If it's in the 10K area, I'll keep the Passat (or maybe still get rid of it and pick up a used E46 325i or something) but if we're talking 30K and above, it would replace the Passat. If the Passat was a stick, I'd be a whole lot happier. But I hate autos, and I hate FWD...and I drive a FWD automatic car.
There was a guy in my area selling a 98 M3 coupe(red) for 19K, very clean and low mileage. You could kill 2 birds with one stone there.
QuoteThere was a guy in my area selling a 98 M3 coupe(red) for 19K, very clean and low mileage. You could kill 2 birds with one stone there.
Nice. I prefer the sedans, though, the E36 coupes weren't great looking. And sedans have better insurance. No point in going broke over a car that has roughly the same performance and worse looks because it's a coupe and "coupes are cool". Plus, I don't buy red cars (cop target). Was it stick?
QuoteQuoteThere was a guy in my area selling a 98 M3 coupe(red) for 19K, very clean and low mileage. You could kill 2 birds with one stone there.
Nice. I prefer the sedans, though, the E36 coupes weren't great looking. And sedans have better insurance. No point in going broke over a car that has roughly the same performance and worse looks because it's a coupe and "coupes are cool". Plus, I don't buy red cars (cop target). Was it stick?
WAS IT A STICK?? WAS IT A STICK??
I wouldn't even remember it if it wasn't, i would have walked up, looked in the window and walked away.
Personally i like the coupes better(coupe anything normally looks better to me than a sedan).
The guy was nice enough to let me take it for a spin. :D
It was at a dealership but it was the managers personal vehicle.
I agree with you about the red though, beyond being a cop magnet i generally don't like red cars(silver/black/blue all look better than red).
QuoteQuoteQuoteThere was a guy in my area selling a 98 M3 coupe(red) for 19K, very clean and low mileage. You could kill 2 birds with one stone there.
Nice. I prefer the sedans, though, the E36 coupes weren't great looking. And sedans have better insurance. No point in going broke over a car that has roughly the same performance and worse looks because it's a coupe and "coupes are cool". Plus, I don't buy red cars (cop target). Was it stick?
WAS IT A STICK?? WAS IT A STICK??
I wouldn't even remember it if it wasn't, i would have walked up, looked in the window and walked away.
Personally i like the coupes better(coupe anything normally looks better to me than a sedan).
The guy was nice enough to let me take it for a spin. :D
It was at a dealership but it was the managers personal vehicle.
I agree with you about the red though, beyond being a cop magnet i generally don't like red cars(silver/black/blue all look better than red).
I'm the same way. I made a frantic u turn to look at an E30 "M3" that was really a 325is or something, and I was so disappointed.
My issue with coupes is: "If it give no real styling or performance advantagem why pay the extra insurance?" I generally don't like 4 seater coupes.
I do, however, like the M Roadster. That was the first car I ever wanted to buy (that was an option).
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThere was a guy in my area selling a 98 M3 coupe(red) for 19K, very clean and low mileage. You could kill 2 birds with one stone there.
Nice. I prefer the sedans, though, the E36 coupes weren't great looking. And sedans have better insurance. No point in going broke over a car that has roughly the same performance and worse looks because it's a coupe and "coupes are cool". Plus, I don't buy red cars (cop target). Was it stick?
WAS IT A STICK?? WAS IT A STICK??
I wouldn't even remember it if it wasn't, i would have walked up, looked in the window and walked away.
Personally i like the coupes better(coupe anything normally looks better to me than a sedan).
The guy was nice enough to let me take it for a spin. :D
It was at a dealership but it was the managers personal vehicle.
I agree with you about the red though, beyond being a cop magnet i generally don't like red cars(silver/black/blue all look better than red).
I'm the same way. I made a frantic u turn to look at an E30 "M3" that was really a 325is or something, and I was so disappointed.
My issue with coupes is: "If it give no real styling or performance advantagem why pay the extra insurance?" I generally don't like 4 seater coupes.
I do, however, like the M Roadster. That was the first car I ever wanted to buy (that was an option).
I like coupes simply because to me they are cleaner and sleak. Though i do like some sedan's, but just about any car that comes in coupe or sedan form is a no brainer for me(insurance doesn't bother me, and i drive alone so a coupe generally has easier entry for front occupants). And once again i just love the look of a coupe.
Styling is certainly hit and miss with everyone, and can very greatly.
For example
(http://www.autogaleria.sitenet.pl/tapety/img/nissan/nissan_silvia_spec-r_1999_01_s.jpg)
I think this is a gorgeous coupe, absolutely lovely.
Where as i saw your comments about it in the skyline thread. :angry: :D
Nah, it's a good looking car. But not earth shattering. I really hated the yellow one with the spoiler.
It was also a shot at the name. Two of Japans best sport coupes are called the Fairlady and Silvia?
QuoteNah, it's a good looking car. But not earth shattering. I really hated the yellow one with the spoiler.
It was also a shot at the name. Two of Japans best sport coupes are called the Fairlady and Silvia?
Ya i know, that yellow one looked alittle retarded, i thought about if i should post it or not.
As for the names, well those japanese are alittle crazy.
The other reason i think its good looking is because i have X ray vision, when i look at it i see the exterior and i see the 250HP turbo 4 and the 20K sticker price.
QuoteThe other reason i think its good looking is because i have X ray vision, when i look at it i see the exterior and i see the 250HP turbo 4 and the 20K sticker price.
:)
WRX. Closest thing in America
It might be, but really its not even close.
The last gen silvia(s15, pictured) had performance closer to a Z(mid 5's to 60). And was more of a true 50/50 RWD car.
I would love a STI though. :D
QuoteIt might be, but really its not even close.
The last gen silvia(s15, pictured) had performance closer to a Z(mid 5's to 60). And was more of a true 50/50 RWD car.
I would love a STI though. :D
I guess if you're discerning you can get a new Z for 23 grand. The WRX can hit 60 in 5 and a half seconds, if you abuse it.
The street start times would reveal the performance difference between the two, thats for sure.
Anyway i've been looking for a Z, either a 300TT or a 350, they are about the same price range used.
QuoteThe street start times would reveal the performance difference between the two, thats for sure.
Anyway i've been looking for a Z, either a 300TT or a 350, they are about the same price range used.
I've seen older 300ZX turbos for around 13 grand or less. I'd still take the 350.
And yeah, the street times would be drastically different. But with any AWD, turbo you'll get that. It's like equipping it with an automatic. On a street start, my E320 could take an S2000 2.0.
I'm having a real hard time finding a clean mid 90's Z for less than 15K. The last one i looked at was right around 20K.
Anyway the 350Z is the better value for the money(newer, simpler, etc).
But the 300 has its pluses.
QuoteI'm having a real hard time finding a clean mid 90's Z for less than 15K. The last one i looked at was right around 20K.
Anyway the 350Z is the better value for the money(newer, simpler, etc).
But the 300 has its pluses.
T-tops, of course. But, to me, the 350 looks better, will be more reliable, and is newer, more stylish, has a cooler interior, and a better shifter. It's a good shifter--not the best I've driven, but it's good.
The clutch is a bit of a bitch. High catch.
QuoteQuoteI'm having a real hard time finding a clean mid 90's Z for less than 15K. The last one i looked at was right around 20K.
Anyway the 350Z is the better value for the money(newer, simpler, etc).
But the 300 has its pluses.
T-tops, of course. But, to me, the 350 looks better, will be more reliable, and is newer, more stylish, has a cooler interior, and a better shifter. It's a good shifter--not the best I've driven, but it's good.
The clutch is a bit of a bitch. High catch.
Opposing views(you and me) as always.
T-Tops are not a benefit to me, in fact i don't like them one bit.
To me the 350 is better because
-newer
-Timing chain, no turbo's, should be very reliable
To me the 300 is better because
-exterior styling
-turbo modability(a chip, and exhaust from stillen puts you over 400 crank HP, thats about 1500 in mods for 100+ horsies :D)
Overall i think the 300 is much more low and smooth than a 350.
It is a little lower, yes, but the 350 should be faster than a stock 300ZX and handle better.
There are superchargers available for the 350, a Stillen piece, and Vortech. How's your credit?
QuoteIt is a little lower, yes, but the 350 should be faster than a stock 300ZX and handle better.
There are superchargers available for the 350, a Stillen piece, and Vortech. How's your credit?
Actually i've seen old road tests of turbo z's hitting 5 flat to sixty, They are slightly faster than the 350.
As for my credit, its great, but i don't want to dig myself into a hole i can't get out of.
Edit: a 400hp z should be able to slip into the 4's, hence my desire for a turbo Z.
QuoteQuoteIt is a little lower, yes, but the 350 should be faster than a stock 300ZX and handle better.
There are superchargers available for the 350, a Stillen piece, and Vortech. How's your credit?
Actually i've seen old road tests of turbo z's hitting 5 flat to sixty, They are slightly faster than the 350.
As for my credit, its great, but i don't want to dig myself into a hole i can't get out of.
Superchargers are like 3 grand for alot of power. You can spend more and get more, but you lose the warranty.
QuoteQuoteQuoteIt is a little lower, yes, but the 350 should be faster than a stock 300ZX and handle better.?
There are superchargers available for the 350, a Stillen piece, and Vortech.? How's your credit?
Actually i've seen old road tests of turbo z's hitting 5 flat to sixty, They are slightly faster than the 350.
As for my credit, its great, but i don't want to dig myself into a hole i can't get out of.
Superchargers are like 3 grand for alot of power. You can spend more and get more, but you lose the warranty.
Stillens units(stage 1 and 2) are covered under warranty(by them, not nissan, and i don't think it voids the whole nissan warranty, just the engine which should be picked up by stillen).
Also a 3K supercharge puts the Z at about 350WHP, about what a 400 CHP 300 would make.
Really its a wash, it comes down to preference(of style, motor type, etc).
I'd take newer when I can get it.
Which is the big benefit of the 350.
newer
simple(no Twin turbo's intercooler piping etc)
And more reliable(timing chains).
In the end i'll proboby end up with a Black 350, since used 300 prices are pretty high i'd probobly be looking at a 2-4K difference.
QuoteWhich is the big benefit of the 350.
newer
simple(no Twin turbo's intercooler piping etc)
And more reliable(timing chains).
In the end i'll proboby end up with a Black 350, since used 300 prices are pretty high i'd probobly be looking at a 2-4K difference.
Bravo. Good choice.