I mean yea there's the great fad of pick ups. But anyone like work vans? Ie. E series, Express, Astro? I mean yea E series has been a very crappy work van to drive, but the new one is suppose to be different, but never tried it out. I've mostly driven GM work vans.
The "new" E-Series has not been substantially changed from the pre-2008 models. It's less of an update than the 2003 Express/Savana, and an update of a much older vehicle at that.
Quote from: Sigma Projects on November 23, 2008, 09:05:27 AM
I mean yea there's the great fad of pick ups. But anyone like work vans? Ie. E series, Express, Astro? I mean yea E series has been a very crappy work van to drive, but the new one is suppose to be different, but never tried it out. I've mostly driven GM work vans.
I hate them...I drive the GM ones, ALOT, and they suck.
Vans are sucky
I miss our Astro, but that was the passenger version.
White panel vans = t3h rap1st.
I have a strong fondness for Ford E-350 Club Wagons.
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r146/RaiseTheKnife/chances.jpg)
I drove a MB Sprinter for about 7 months in Argentina. Despite the fact that it was really bare-bones (the 308CDI), it was quite useful. We used it for moves, furniture, suitcases, and people. It wasn't good at much else, but it worked very nice as a do-all stuff transporter.
Never again will I willingly subject myself to any full-size van. :devil:
I never understood why people buy pickups instead of vans? Vans are so much more useful. Best of all, your cargo doesn't get wet when it rains!
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 10:51:38 AM
I never understood why people buy pickups instead of vans? Vans are so much more useful. Best of all, your cargo doesn't get wet when it rains!
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Some things don't fit in a van. Have you ever tried to get wood, gravel, or any other building equipment out of a van? Not everyone uses pickups for transporting traditional cargo, and in some respects a pickup is better.
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 10:51:38 AM
I never understood why people buy pickups instead of vans? Vans are so much more useful. Best of all, your cargo doesn't get wet when it rains!
Vans are particularly useful for situations where you have products of some sort in clean containers. Throwing a bunch of boxes into a van is great.
But a pickup has the advantage of being able to carry messy loads. Gravel, sod, garbage: you would never load a van with these things, it's too much of a hassle trying to clean it out. Unloading these loose loads are very easy in a pickup truck.
Even effete Europeans make and use pickup trucks:
(http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkingdom/vans/products/new_vans/product_mouseover/UK-new_sprinter_pickup.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/sprinter_mouseover_pickup397x160.jpg)
(http://leicester.gumtree.com/posting_images/72/26895472__1217571993__1__3-ff7a1ef427151f9d0ff28370f5ea8d12.__big__.jpg)
Quote from: 93JC on November 25, 2008, 11:53:21 AM
Vans are particularly useful for situations where you have products of some sort in clean containers. Throwing a bunch of boxes into a van is great.
But a pickup has the advantage of being able to carry messy loads. Gravel, sod, garbage: you would never load a van with these things, it's too much of a hassle trying to clean it out. Unloading these loose loads are very easy in a pickup truck.
Even effete Europeans make and use pickup trucks:
(http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkingdom/vans/products/new_vans/product_mouseover/UK-new_sprinter_pickup.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/sprinter_mouseover_pickup397x160.jpg)
(http://leicester.gumtree.com/posting_images/72/26895472__1217571993__1__3-ff7a1ef427151f9d0ff28370f5ea8d12.__big__.jpg)
Sure, trucks are better for hailling gravel, dirt, wood and the like. But how many of the millions of pickups you see on the roads are actually doing any of that? Most of the trucks I see have NOTHING in them. And most of those look like they have NEVER carried anything in their cargo beds.
Also, take a good look at those European trucks you posted. Notice anything? The cargo beds are much longer and far more usable than on an American style pickup. And see how the fronts have a short van-style nose, so as to make turning and parking much easier? Why don't American trucks look like this? It seems to me American trucks place more emphasis on cartoonish macho styling over practicality.
These Euro-trucks also use efficient and torquey diesel engines, which is what you want for shifting big loads. OTOH, most American trucks have to have big, gas swilling V8s to be of any use at all. If your actually going to use a truck as a truck, these Euro-trucks are a far superior design.
Or is it that the typical American pickup buyer isn't interested in any of this? It seems the typical American pickup buyer wears his truck as a fashion statement. For most buyers, their truck is really just a redneck status symbol for people who want to be perceived as a "BIG MAN" and to overcompensate for some psychological shortcoming. It's this whole dick-waving "Mine is bigger than yours" mentality which explains this curious facination in seemingly useless pickups.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
Sure, trucks are better for hailling gravel, dirt, wood and the like. But how many of the millions of pickups you see on the roads are actually doing any of that? Most of the trucks I see have NOTHING in them. And most of those look like they have NEVER carried anything in their cargo beds.
Also, take a good look at those European trucks you posted. Notice anything? The cargo beds are much longer and far more usable than on an American style pickup. And see how the fronts have a short van-style nose, so as to make turning and parking much easier? Why don't American trucks look like this? It seems to me American trucks place more emphasis on cartoonish macho styling over practicality.
These Euro-trucks also use efficient and torquey diesel engines, which is what you want for shifting big loads. OTOH, most American trucks have to have big, gas swilling V8s to be of any use at all. If your actually going to use a truck as a truck, these Euro-trucks are a far superior design.
Or is it that the typical American pickup buyer isn't interested in any of this? It seems the typical American pickup buyer wears his truck as a fashion statement. For most buyers, their truck is really just a redneck status symbol for people who want to be perceived as a "BIG MAN" and to overcompensate for some psychological shortcoming. It's this whole dick-waving "Mine is bigger than yours" mentality which explains this curious facination in seemingly useless pickups.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
- Gas is cheap, Diesel is not.
- We all tire of your crass generalizations, you don't know what you're talking about.
- Americans carry taller loads, this low, short, box-bed will spill out anything that is loose.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 25, 2008, 04:24:47 PM
We all tire of your crass generalizations, you don't know what you're talking about.
You seem to be in a bit of a mood today! Touch a nerve, did I?
Cheers,
Madman of the People
In a word. No.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 25, 2008, 04:24:47 PM
- Gas is cheap, Diesel is not.
- We all tire of your crass generalizations, you don't know what you're talking about.
- Americans carry taller loads, this low, short, box-bed will spill out anything that is loose.
You surprise me with your wit and snarkiness. Props. Mad props.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 25, 2008, 04:24:47 PM
- Gas is cheap, Diesel is not.
- We all tire of your crass generalizations, you don't know what you're talking about.
- We tire from your infatuation with shit cars, and your relentless posting of them. ;)
- Americans carry taller loads, this low, short, box-bed will spill out anything that is loose.
Americans carry taller loads? So for some odd reason we put refrigerators in the back of our pickups...and Europeans don't? I think not.
There are benefits to both styles of pickups. I would venture to say that not one euro van/truck would be able to perform any of the duties larger trucks can. However, I think it is accurate to say many people buy trucks without ever using their full potential. Chances are, a van/truck would suit the needs of most American truck buyers far better than a F-150, never mind an F450 Super duty.
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
Sure, trucks are better for hailling gravel, dirt, wood and the like. But how many of the millions of pickups you see on the roads are actually doing any of that? Most of the trucks I see have NOTHING in them. And most of those look like they have NEVER carried anything in their cargo beds.
Also, take a good look at those European trucks you posted. Notice anything? The cargo beds are much longer and far more usable than on an American style pickup. And see how the fronts have a short van-style nose, so as to make turning and parking much easier? Why don't American trucks look like this? It seems to me American trucks place more emphasis on cartoonish macho styling over practicality.
These Euro-trucks also use efficient and torquey diesel engines, which is what you want for shifting big loads. OTOH, most American trucks have to have big, gas swilling V8s to be of any use at all. If your actually going to use a truck as a truck, these Euro-trucks are a far superior design.
Or is it that the typical American pickup buyer isn't interested in any of this? It seems the typical American pickup buyer wears his truck as a fashion statement. For most buyers, their truck is really just a redneck status symbol for people who want to be perceived as a "BIG MAN" and to overcompensate for some psychological shortcoming. It's this whole dick-waving "Mine is bigger than yours" mentality which explains this curious facination in seemingly useless pickups.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Well, you've started with a few misconceptions. The vehicles you posted aren't really european pickup trucks as much as they are the european equivalent of a medium duty flatbed. They have pickups too, the Ford Ranger among them.
The second misconception is the confusion about the short nose. Have you ever ridden in a truck where you had to st over the front wheels like that? Let me tell you, you won't want to do it for long. There are very few instances where I've ever had any trouble parking a pickup truck in the US, or in getting it around a corner, so I think that concern is somewhat misplaced.
The third is really up to debate- sure, some pickup buyers use them as fashion plates and rarely haul anything, but one visit to a european beach will dispel any thoughts as to the crassness of American fashion as you've so succinctly tried to blame this on.
In Europe, a man in a pickup is mostly likely a tradesmen of some sort and his truck is an extension of his busines. In the US, while many are also tradesmen, there are also any number of sportsmen or hobbiests that only occasionally use their trucks for hauling anything from four wheelers to boats to motor homes to race cars. Got to a drag race, a lake, a car show- and what you'll find besides the cars and boats is the pickups who brought them all there.
US-style pickups are very practical and efficient at doing what people in the US want them to do, and that job is quite simply very different from what they are asked to do in most of Europe.
Quote from: Sigma Projects on November 23, 2008, 09:05:27 AM
I mean yea there's the great fad of pick ups. But anyone like work vans? Ie. E series, Express, Astro? I mean yea E series has been a very crappy work van to drive, but the new one is suppose to be different, but never tried it out. I've mostly driven GM work vans.
I hate work vans. Rather than having your load conveniently located in the bed where you can either shovel it out or pick it up over the side, vans force you to crawl in and shove it out the back door. Also, in a wreck instead of all your gear flying out of the bed it piles up with you in the front of the van. Wee.
Further, repairing work vans is more or less like having your testicles crushed in a vice.
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
Also, take a good look at those European trucks you posted. Notice anything? The cargo beds are much longer and far more usable than on an American style pickup. And see how the fronts have a short van-style nose, so as to make turning and parking much easier? Why don't American trucks look like this? It seems to me American trucks place more emphasis on cartoonish macho styling over practicality.
These Euro-trucks also use efficient and torquey diesel engines, which is what you want for shifting big loads. OTOH, most American trucks have to have big, gas swilling V8s to be of any use at all. If your actually going to use a truck as a truck, these Euro-trucks are a far superior design.
I think the short answer is that Americans and Europeans use their trucks for different purposes.
Neither of those two flatbeds posted would be of much use in Western American industry. You couldn't drive one to a CBM well, for instance.
Besides, we have those same types of trucks available for the light-duty commercial demand in metropolitan areas.
(http://www.ggtrucks.com/99%20Isuzu%20FB.JPG)
They had the Ford Transit on display at the LA auto show, and it's a breath of frash air after so many years of ubiquitous Econolines.
Although the old truck-based BOF passenger vans are much cooler with lifted suspensions and off-road kits :mrcool:
I seriously want a Transit Connect. They're pretty cool ugly, little things.
The Transit, either the FWD or RWD version, are just too big for my needs.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2008, 03:58:13 PM
Have you ever ridden in a truck where you had to st over the front wheels like that? Let me tell you, you won't want to do it for long. There are very few instances where I've ever had any trouble parking a pickup truck in the US, or in getting it around a corner, so I think that concern is somewhat misplaced.
I used to own a 1975 Volkswagen Transporter and spend quite a bit of time behind the wheel of a 1980's Toyota Van (a company vehicle) and have also ridden in a cab-over Kenworth, so yes I know what it's like to ride over the front axle. I don't expect a commercial vehicle to ride like a car. This unrealistic expectation is why Ford felt compelled to fit overy soft suspension and underinflated tyres to the Ford Explorer. Ford caved in to customer demand (mostly form women) to try to make a truck ride like a car. The disasterous results of this decision speak for themselves.
The point I was trying to make, however, is of the large amounts of wasted space in the average pickup. Look at a conventional pickup from the side. Less then 50% of the total legnth of the vehicle is used to carry cargo. Now look at a van-based pickup. More than 70% of the vehicle's legnth is used to carry cargo. What this means is that if the two vehicles are the same overall legnth, the van-based truck can carry more cargo than the conventional pickup. This is why I have always wondered why there aren't any pickup versions of the Ford Econoline or the Chevrolet Express? Detroit used to make van based pickups in the 1960s, so why did they never catch on? It seems to me this is a much more efficient use of space than a conventional pickup.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 03, 2008, 03:58:13 PM
The third is really up to debate- sure, some pickup buyers use them as fashion plates and rarely haul anything, but one visit to a european beach will dispel any thoughts as to the crassness of American fashion as you've so succinctly tried to blame this on.
In Europe, a man in a pickup is mostly likely a tradesmen of some sort and his truck is an extension of his busines. In the US, while many are also tradesmen, there are also any number of sportsmen or hobbiests that only occasionally use their trucks for hauling anything from four wheelers to boats to motor homes to race cars. Got to a drag race, a lake, a car show- and what you'll find besides the cars and boats is the pickups who brought them all there.
US-style pickups are very practical and efficient at doing what people in the US want them to do, and that job is quite simply very different from what they are asked to do in most of Europe.
People in Europe don't have campers, boats, race cars, horses and such? Having been there many times, I can assure you they do. The difference is Europeans don't go for the sort of crass overkill which Americans seem oddly prone to do. A small torquey diesel engine does as good a job of pulling a trailer as a gas-guzzling V8. Europeans seem to be able to pull campers and trailers with an ordinary family car. So why do we need to have a 7.0 litre, four wheel drive, psudo-military monster truck to pull anything bigger than a go-cart? I just don't get it.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: Madman on December 05, 2008, 08:45:25 AM
The point I was trying to make, however, is of the large amounts of wasted space in the average pickup. Look at a conventional pickup from the side. Less then 50% of the total legnth of the vehicle is used to carry cargo. Now look at a van-based pickup. More than 70% of the vehicle's legnth is used to carry cargo. What this means is that if the two vehicles are the same overall legnth, the van-based truck can carry more cargo than the conventional pickup. This is why I have always wondered why there aren't any pickup versions of the Ford Econoline or the Chevrolet Express? Detroit used to make van based pickups in the 1960s, so why did they never catch on? It seems to me this is a much more efficient use of space than a conventional pickup.
People in Europe don't have campers, boats, race cars, horses and such? Having been there many times, I can assure you they do. The difference is Europeans don't go for the sort of crass overkill which Americans seem oddly prone to do. A small torquey diesel engine does as good a job of pulling a trailer as a gas-guzzling V8. Europeans seem to be able to pull campers and trailers with an ordinary family car. So why do we need to have a 7.0 litre, four wheel drive, psudo-military monster truck to pull anything bigger than a go-cart? I just don't get it.
Cheers,
Madman of the People
There's not really a need here to try to cram as much vehicle as possible into the shortest length: all but very few roads and parking spots easily accomodate our pickups, and almost all the pickups accomodate the loades the owners want to haul with them: so what's the point of redesigning the vehicle so that it can't have a real hood that gives you access to anything and rides worse?
Quote from: Madman on December 05, 2008, 08:45:25 AM
People in Europe don't have campers, boats, race cars, horses and such? Having been there many times, I can assure you they do. The difference is Europeans don't go for the sort of crass overkill which Americans seem oddly prone to do. A small torquey diesel engine does as good a job of pulling a trailer as a gas-guzzling V8. Europeans seem to be able to pull campers and trailers with an ordinary family car. So why do we need to have a 7.0 litre, four wheel drive, psudo-military monster truck to pull anything bigger than a go-cart? I just don't get it.
ur rite; we're so stoopid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaeq8jsg_9U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yaeq8jsg_9U)
No man. You've got it all wrong. The reason we like tall beds is so our beer cans don't blow out of the back.
Secondly, the trucks around here can haul more and usually do.
And last but not least our roads our generally fairly wider.
Now I'm not saying we do everything right here but some things that work well in Europe wouldn't necessarily work as great over here.
Our highway system is a little different as well as the price of fuel. They tax their fuel more heavily so people are somewhat forced to drive vehicles that are really a little overloaded. Granted they do build some good little vehicles over there.
Quote from: Madman on November 25, 2008, 04:08:14 PM
Sure, trucks are better for hailling gravel, dirt, wood and the like. But how many of the millions of pickups you see on the roads are actually doing any of that? Most of the trucks I see have NOTHING in them. And most of those look like they have NEVER carried anything in their cargo beds.
I hate this argument. It's dumb. I had a truck that I drove to work every single day. I went to work exactly four times in 3 years with something in the box. I did however use it quite regularly to carry stuff and to go off-roading. I'm not going to drive around every day hauling 1200 lbs in the box just because I have a truck. At the end of three years, multiple loads over 2000 lbs, regular loads of 500 lbs, and plenty of off-roading my truck didn't look like it had ever carried a load because I took care of it. I also drove around when I wasn't carrying a load with a tonneau cover on it.
QuoteAlso, take a good look at those European trucks you posted. Notice anything? The cargo beds are much longer and far more usable than on an American style pickup. And see how the fronts have a short van-style nose, so as to make turning and parking much easier? Why don't American trucks look like this? It seems to me American trucks place more emphasis on cartoonish macho styling over practicality.
We have the same type of trucks here too that are used commercially and I see them all the time. For personal trucks, pickups are the way to go.
QuoteThese Euro-trucks also use efficient and torquey diesel engines, which is what you want for shifting big loads. OTOH, most American trucks have to have big, gas swilling V8s to be of any use at all. If your actually going to use a truck as a truck, these Euro-trucks are a far superior design.
Only in half-ton trucks. You can get big thirsty V8's in 3/4 ton trucks, but the vast majority are diesel powered. Our diesels are also 3 times more powerful then the diesels in those euro trucks.
QuoteOr is it that the typical American pickup buyer isn't interested in any of this? It seems the typical American pickup buyer wears his truck as a fashion statement. For most buyers, their truck is really just a redneck status symbol for people who want to be perceived as a "BIG MAN" and to overcompensate for some psychological shortcoming. It's this whole dick-waving "Mine is bigger than yours" mentality which explains this curious facination in seemingly useless pickups.
Maybe for some people, but not most. But the same could be said for anyone who buys a BMW, M-B, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, Cadillac, Lexus, Infinity, Porsche, etc. Unless you buy a Toyota Corolla or Honda Accord, then you're an egomaniac redneck with a little dick.
the dodge sprinter is actually quite nice. my college purchased a fleet for transporting sports teams. in my community, there are utility versions serving as emt vehicles, moving vans, ups (etc.) trucks... i think they are highly practical, well put together and comfortable - but too big for replacing the family minivan.
Quote from: Atomic on January 06, 2009, 04:31:50 PM
the dodge sprinter is actually quite nice. my college purchased a fleet for transporting sports teams. in my community, there are utility versions serving as emt vehicles, moving vans, ups (etc.) trucks... i think they are highly practical, well put together and comfortable - but too big for replacing the family minivan.
And tall, too. I scraped the top on a parking garage roof once.
1) Yes there is room for a light Transit-type van in the US. The Sprinter has had great success in this niche.
2) American pickup trucks are great leisure vehicles as well as extremely practical; great for moving stuff and people. They are a bargain too. I know plenty of people who have pickups that do service at the weekends for everything from hauling boats, to moving stuff between homes to hunting.
There is nothing quite like sitting up high in a quiet cabin with a honkin' V8 under the gas pedal.