CarSPIN Forums

Auto Talk => The Fast Lane => Topic started by: Payman on December 26, 2008, 10:38:26 PM

Title: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on December 26, 2008, 10:38:26 PM
I just got home from visiting family in Oshawa... home of the new Camaro assembly line. 2 of my uncle's friends were at his place, they were discussing the closure of their plant. When the plant re-opens in February, presumably to start Camaro production, they're not confident that the car will actually see production, and the line will be dismantled and the plant closed down for good. I refused to believe them, but they are genuinely worried. Holy shit I hope it's not true.
:confused:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 26, 2008, 10:41:37 PM
It's probably not true.  They'd lose more money not making the car right now than they would selling it at a loss.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Raza on December 26, 2008, 11:02:51 PM
With gas coming down, and the sheer amount of Challengers I'm seeing (like two or three a day now), I'm sure they'll still sell a couple. 

Still, whether they do or don't make, it doesn't really matter to me.  I wasn't going to buy one anyway.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: 280Z Turbo on December 26, 2008, 11:04:52 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 26, 2008, 10:41:37 PM
It's probably not true.  They'd lose more money not making the car right now than they would selling it at a loss.

I don't know. GM seems to do stupid things quite often.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on December 27, 2008, 01:38:15 AM
It's possible. With GM as cash-strapped as it is, it may be a simple matter of practical finance - that GM just doesn't have the cash to keep the plant running, as after all, GM has to spend money to make cars before it gets money from selling them ("float"). A lot of what GM needs a lot of cash for (as most manufacturers in any industry) is this float between spending money and earning money. If things get this bad, it's better not to take chances on a new products - just do all you can to keep the current selling product moving out the door.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: BimmerM3 on December 27, 2008, 01:50:50 AM
Quote from: Raza  on December 26, 2008, 11:02:51 PM
With gas coming down, and the sheer amount of Challengers I'm seeing (like two or three a day now), I'm sure they'll still sell a couple. 

Really? I've only seen two or three on the street total.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Rich on December 27, 2008, 05:33:03 AM
GM sues supplier to keep Camaro production on schedule
http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-sues-supplier-to-keep-camaro-production-on-schedule.html

And on a totally separate issue:

Also, the ambient lighting, a part of the 2SS with leather package, is uncertain to be ready in time for production.  So now something that has been a part of hundreds of Camaro orders might not make it in time. It's got a lot of people pissed off

I couldn't care less anymore.  Scott Settlemire is an overpaid redneck
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sportyaccordy on December 27, 2008, 09:46:14 AM
GM has like 12 months worth of cars waiting to be sold... they should get those off the lots before worrying about bringing a Camaro out.

I wonder how SUV sales are doing now with these artifically low prices...

Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Onslaught on December 27, 2008, 10:59:07 AM
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 27, 2008, 01:50:50 AM
Really? I've only seen two or three on the street total.
I see them all the time now.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on December 27, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 27, 2008, 09:46:14 AM
GM has like 12 months worth of cars waiting to be sold... they should get those off the lots before worrying about bringing a Camaro out.

I wonder how SUV sales are doing now with these artifically low prices...


GM needs a car that sells, so bringing the Camaro out sooner would be better.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on December 27, 2008, 12:15:20 PM
And the Camaro soap opera continues.......
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on December 27, 2008, 01:52:00 PM
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on December 27, 2008, 12:15:20 PM
And the Camaro soap opera continues.......

It's a shame - IMO it is(was) looking to be one GM's best cars in quite some time.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on December 27, 2008, 10:12:40 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, in fact i've kind of been waiting to hear something like this. Never underestimate GM, they are the biggest screw up of the modern auto industry.

Don't put it past them either, they cancelled the northstar replacements right at the end of development. By scraping that they wasted millions.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 28, 2008, 12:08:26 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123032162988835835.html

GM Sues for Access to Parts for Camaro
The auto maker, struggling to stay afloat amid a crippling liquidity crisis, said it stands to lose millions of dollars if the parts and tooling aren't returned immediately by Cadence Innovation LLC, of Troy, Mich.

Without the equipment, GM says, production could be interrupted at several assembly plants, with a ripple effect hitting suppliers and dealers. The damages, GM said in a bankruptcy-court filing, "would be substantial, but difficult, if not impossible to calculate."

Cadence, which makes consoles, door panels and other parts, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in August and entered liquidation proceedings earlier this month. GM, in a court filing on Wednesday, said it wants the parts and tooling returned immediately so it can have a new supplier in place by Jan. 12.

"Even one day's disruption in supply of certain component parts could cause a shutdown of GM assembly operations, disrupting not only GM's business, but the operations of countless suppliers, dealers, customers and other stakeholders," the auto maker said in the lawsuit filing with U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware.

A lawyer for Cadence declined to comment on the case.

Access to company-owned equipment is an ongoing battle for auto makers when suppliers file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Chrysler LLC sought and was denied access to equipment when Plastech Corp. filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.

Auto makers provide suppliers with special machinery to build exclusive parts for their vehicles. The suppliers use the machines in their plants but traditionally sign agreements dictating that ownership of the machines belongs to the auto makers.

GM can ill afford another costly glitch as it scrambles to reduce costs and restructure its money-losing operations. GM last week was granted access to $9.4 billion in federal aid that the company said it needed to survive into 2009. Even with the injection, GM is running perilously low on cash it needs to run the business.
?Jeff Bennett contributed to this article.

Write to Sharon Terlep at sharon.terlep@dowjones.com
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on December 28, 2008, 01:04:56 PM
^ I wonder how the GM brass feel about their cut throat bidding process when it comes to their suppliers now...
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sportyaccordy on December 28, 2008, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 27, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
GM needs a car that sells, so bringing the Camaro out sooner would be better.
What happens to all the Aveos
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on December 28, 2008, 06:48:45 PM
Quote from: r0tor on December 28, 2008, 01:04:56 PM
^ I wonder how the GM brass feel about their cut throat bidding process when it comes to their suppliers now...

Somehow I doubt GM is any more cut throat than Toyota is.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Rich on December 28, 2008, 08:24:41 PM
I'm going to guess that the ambient lighting issue is due to this supplier.  Who knows?

Anyway, test fleet Camaros have been built and are in the corporate fleet for employees to drive...

V6 sound clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIoZ3fIMrk4&e

Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on December 28, 2008, 11:42:55 PM
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 28, 2008, 03:43:42 PM
What happens to all the Aveos
What's that got to with the Camaro?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on December 28, 2008, 11:45:02 PM
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 28, 2008, 11:42:55 PM
What's that got to with the Camaro?
Shit!  :mask:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on December 29, 2008, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: TBR on December 28, 2008, 06:48:45 PM
Somehow I doubt GM is any more cut throat than Toyota is.

actually the german and japanese car manufacturers tend to stick with one supplier for an item and help them to produce things for a better price as time goes along.  The big 3 bid everything and award to the lowest bidder.... its one of the rather large differences between automaker philosophies
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 29, 2008, 06:02:57 PM
Your friendly neighborhood r0tor is right.  The Japanese, especially, try to build long-lasting relationships with their suppliers in order to get a personal, reciprocal relationship between their companies. 
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 29, 2008, 06:14:58 PM
Let's make industrial robots to replace the Big 3 management. It'll save tons of money and the businesses will remain at status quo (maybe it'll be a little more efficient, since robots are perfectly happy to fly coach.) I'll write the software.

Supplier& Big3CEO::sourceParts(Supplier& s1, Supplier& s2) {
    if (s1.getEstimate() <= s2.getEstimate())
         return s1;
    else
         return s2;
}


The system is perfectly failsafe. All catastrophic exceptions are handled just like their flesh in blood counterparts would.

try {
   // main event loop:
   while (!this->business.isRunIntoGround()) {
       this->mismanage(business);
   }
} catch (...) {
    this->blame(economy);
    this->blame(government);
    this->blame(consumers);
} finally {
     throw new GoldenParachute(UINT_MAX);
}


Roger Smith would be proud.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on December 29, 2008, 08:02:25 PM
GM sucks, penny pinching old timers.

screw quality, screw stability, save me 10 cents on a 5 dollar part.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MrH on December 30, 2008, 11:44:33 AM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 26, 2008, 10:41:37 PM
It's probably not true.  They'd lose more money not making the car right now than they would selling it at a loss.

That doesn't make any sense.  Re-read what you just said.  You're saying they'd lose more money cutting their losses now and stopping everything on the Camaro than if they sold them at a loss?  If each car is sold at a loss, that just adds to the growing money pit the Camaro already is.  I highly doubt each car will be sold for a loss, so they will probably proceed, but I doubt this car will make them money in the long run when you consider the money spent to develop the thing.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 12:31:14 PM
MrH, I know what I said, and yes, if the car sold and was still losing money, it'd probably be a better move than not selling the car at all.  Do I need to dig up my managerial economics notes?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on December 30, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 12:31:14 PM
MrH, I know what I said, and yes, if the car sold and was still losing money, it'd probably be a better move than not selling the car at all.  Do I need to dig up my managerial economics notes?

I'm sorry, but that logic escapes me as well.

Let's say you drop $10 million into developing a car.  That car costs you $20K per unit to produce.  In order to recoup your development costs, you would have to sell each unit at some amount higher than the production cost and you'd have to sell enough of them such that it added up to your initial $10 million investment (e.g. 10,000 units at a 1,000 dollar profit per).  Now lets say you sell each unit at a $1000 loss per ($19K per unit).  If you sell 10,000 of them, you lost 10 million dollars on top of the 10 million you spent developing the thing.  How are you better off?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 12:31:14 PMDo I need to dig up my managerial economics notes?
yes
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 12:57:46 PM
Quote from: MX793 on December 30, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
I'm sorry, but that logic escapes me as well.

Let's say you drop $10 million into developing a car.  That car costs you $20K per unit to produce.  In order to recoup your development costs, you would have to sell each unit at some amount higher than the production cost and you'd have to sell enough of them such that it added up to your initial $10 million investment (e.g. 10,000 units at a 1,000 dollar profit per).  Now lets say you sell each unit at a $1000 loss per ($19K per unit).  If you sell 10,000 of them, you lost 10 million dollars on top of the 10 million you spent developing the thing.  How are you better off?

You forget about all of the fun things like training employees, the (unionized) staff they've already hired that will be paid no matter what, and the molds, presses, and casts they've already set up for this car.  Everything costs money, and they need to pay for it somehow.

Sure, we shouldn't consider sunk costs, but there's an awful lot of investment that could be paid off rather than losing all of it if no cars were to be made at all.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on December 30, 2008, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 12:57:46 PM
You forget about all of the fun things like training employees, the (unionized) staff they've already hired that will be paid no matter what, and the molds, presses, and casts they've already set up for this car.  Everything costs money, and they need to pay for it somehow.

Sure, we shouldn't consider sunk costs, but there's an awful lot of investment that could be paid off rather than losing all of it if no cars were to be made at all.

I would consider tooling, training, etc all part of development costs.  These are the up-front costs that you'll spend whether you build 1 or 1 million units.  Production costs would be the costs of the labor and material used building each unit.

Again, if you drop $10 million in engineering/design, tooling, personnel training for a product that costs $20K per unit to build (materials and labor) and then sell each unit at $19000 (a $1000 loss per), how do you recoup any of your development costs?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 01:06:14 PM
No one would sell them at an immediate loss to begin with, though.  That would just be retarded, and bad business sense to boot.

The only time you'd do that is to gain immediate market share.  And this car isn't good enough to make people not want to buy their 3ers and Mustangs.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 01:11:37 PM
Actually it's not uncommon for companies to initially sell for a loss and expect a profit down the line, after economies of scale have been achieved, efficiencies are discovered on the assembly line, amortized tooling costs go down, bugs are worked out, etc..............
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Byteme on December 30, 2008, 01:17:58 PM
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 27, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
GM needs a car that sells, so bringing the Camaro out sooner would be better.

Its a niche car in a limited market split at least 3 ways.  The auto companies need a volume best seller.

Forget for a moment what GM has spent to date on this. Consider that sunk fixed costs.  Can GM even cover it's variable costs and sell enough to make the exercize worthwhile? I doubt it.  Look at the target audience for this car.  I would guess they are the ones hurting the most right now.   
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Cookie Monster on December 30, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Teuton needs to take an economics class.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on December 30, 2008, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: MX793 on December 30, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
I'm sorry, but that logic escapes me as well.

Let's say you drop $10 million into developing a car.  That car costs you $20K per unit to produce.  In order to recoup your development costs, you would have to sell each unit at some amount higher than the production cost and you'd have to sell enough of them such that it added up to your initial $10 million investment (e.g. 10,000 units at a 1,000 dollar profit per).  Now lets say you sell each unit at a $1000 loss per ($19K per unit).  If you sell 10,000 of them, you lost 10 million dollars on top of the 10 million you spent developing the thing.  How are you better off?

the problem is they have to pay the union employees no matter what.... so instead of losing $1k per car they could spend $7k in labor for an imaginary car.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MrH on December 30, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 01:06:14 PM
No one would sell them at an immediate loss to begin with, though.  That would just be retarded, and bad business sense to boot.

The only time you'd do that is to gain immediate market share.  And this car isn't good enough to make people not want to buy their 3ers and Mustangs.

That's what you originally said though...

And that's why I'm refuting it.  You said it'd be better if they sold the Camaro at a loss at this point.  No one sells cars for a loss, and if they were going to, it would make more sense to just not build them in the first place.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MrH on December 30, 2008, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: Byteme on December 30, 2008, 01:17:58 PM
Its a niche car in a limited market split at least 3 ways.  The auto companies need a volume best seller.

Forget for a moment what GM has spent to date on this. Consider that sunk fixed costs.  Can GM even cover it's variable costs and sell enough to make the exercize worthwhile? I doubt it.  Look at the target audience for this car.  I would guess they are the ones hurting the most right now.  

I don't think the target audience is hurting the most.  Relatively wealthy, young males are probably the intended audience right now (my age group actually), and I think as a group, we're fairing pretty well.  I know a guy at work who's going to buy one of these new Camaros once they hit showrooms and the discounts start to flow to keep moving cars.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: MrH on December 30, 2008, 02:36:49 PM
I don't think the target audience is hurting the most.  Relatively wealthy, young males are probably the intended audience right now (my age group actually), and I think as a group, we're fairing pretty well.  I know a guy at work who's going to buy one of these new Camaros once they hit showrooms and the discounts start to flow to keep moving cars.
Your anecdote about the demographic contradicts the articles I've been reading about recent college graduates who are purely SOL.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on December 30, 2008, 04:19:11 PM
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 02:43:32 PM
articles I've been reading about recent college graduates who are purely SOL.

its not all badt...

I graduated in the wake of the 9/11 market crash.  Graduating in an economic downturn means its tough to get a job.  However, when you get a job its likely your not going to lose it in the next recession as it was a job that was actually needed and not something just created during a big spending craze.  It also means you can start your 401k with very cheap market prices!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on December 30, 2008, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: thecarnut on December 30, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
Teuton needs to take an economics class.

Go to hell or whatever you have.

Quote from: r0tor on December 30, 2008, 01:54:26 PM
the problem is they have to pay the union employees no matter what.... so instead of losing $1k per car they could spend $7k in labor for an imaginary car.

Bingo Pt. 1

Quote from: MrH on December 30, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
That's what you originally said though...

And that's why I'm refuting it.  You said it'd be better if they sold the Camaro at a loss at this point.  No one sells cars for a loss, and if they were going to, it would make more sense to just not build them in the first place.
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 01:11:37 PM
Actually it's not uncommon for companies to initially sell for a loss and expect a profit down the line, after economies of scale have been achieved, efficiencies are discovered on the assembly line, amortized tooling costs go down, bugs are worked out, etc..............

Laconian is more right than I was. 

Quote from: MrH on December 30, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
No one sells cars for a loss, and if they were going to, it would make more sense to just not build them in the first place.

Wrongo!

See Laconian.

If the car is initially a loser, then it's moot.  If the car is a loser in the long-run with no foreseeable benefit from economies of scale, then it's not worth it.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Soup DeVille on December 30, 2008, 05:41:13 PM
Quote from: r0tor on December 30, 2008, 01:54:26 PM
the problem is they have to pay the union employees no matter what.... so instead of losing $1k per car they could spend $7k in labor for an imaginary car.

Labor at the assembly level is a relatively small portion of the car's total cost.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on December 30, 2008, 08:53:39 PM
I'm going to have to side with Tueton as killing the Camaro now will incur a massive charge which GM can ill afford at this stage.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Tave on December 30, 2008, 11:15:04 PM
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 02:43:32 PM
Your anecdote about the demographic contradicts the articles I've been reading about recent college graduates who are purely SOL.

Is the average age of potential buyers 22? I bet it's more like 35.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 11:21:29 PM
Quote from: Tave on December 30, 2008, 11:15:04 PM
Is the average age of potential buyers 22? I bet it's more like 35.
Yeah, I would guess maybe late 20's: old enough to have saved some money, but statistically unlikely to have kids. And buckets of testosterone left in the bloodstream.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Sigma Projects on December 31, 2008, 05:05:48 AM
i just hope dealer markup isn't too high... as there are plenty of cars with the same MSRP that are boring and not necessarily better suited for everyday tasks, like most FWD coupes out there with some power. If the $23K sticker price is real for the base model then I think it has a real shot IMO. Of course dealer markups will be there, but how bad?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on December 31, 2008, 01:47:10 PM
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 30, 2008, 05:41:13 PM
Labor at the assembly level is a relatively small portion of the car's total cost.

thats the union propoganda and is somewhat correct.  However, add in the UAW legacy costs and its a different story all together.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: hotrodalex on December 31, 2008, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 11:21:29 PM
Yeah, I would guess maybe late 20's: old enough to have saved some money, but statistically unlikely to have kids. And buckets of testosterone left in the bloodstream.

Pretty much an exact description of me. I would look at buying one, but I'm not a big fan of buying new cars and I also have other cars in mind.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Byteme on December 31, 2008, 08:10:40 PM
Quote from: r0tor on December 31, 2008, 01:47:10 PM
thats the union propoganda and is somewhat correct.  However, add in the UAW legacy costs and its a different story all together.

The data I've seen suggests about 18-20 man hours at the assembly plant.  The average GM worker costs GM $60 an hour including all medical, pension taxes and other costs.  So the labour component is somwhere in the neighborhood of $1242 and $1380. Say 5% of MSRP.  But that is deceptive in that it doesn't take into account the labour component of the parts and subassemblies that were fabricated off site.  Much of that work is done with UAW labour as well.

Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on December 31, 2008, 09:27:28 PM
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 31, 2008, 02:50:25 PM
Pretty much an exact description of me. I would look at buying one, but I'm not a big fan of buying new cars and I also have other cars in mind.
Used C6s are looking really good to me now!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Soup DeVille on January 02, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: r0tor on December 31, 2008, 01:47:10 PM
thats the union propoganda and is somewhat correct.  However, add in the UAW legacy costs and its a different story all together.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever been accused of spouting pro-UAW propaganda.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on January 02, 2009, 03:40:47 PM
Quote from: Byteme on December 31, 2008, 08:10:40 PM
The data I've seen suggests about 18-20 man hours at the assembly plant.  The average GM worker costs GM $60 an hour including all medical, pension taxes and other costs.  So the labour component is somwhere in the neighborhood of $1242 and $1380. Say 5% of MSRP.  But that is deceptive in that it doesn't take into account the labour component of the parts and subassemblies that were fabricated off site.  Much of that work is done with UAW labour as well.



According to a recent article I read, it's between $70 and $75 an hour with benefits and all that.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: NomisR on January 02, 2009, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2008, 01:11:37 PM
Actually it's not uncommon for companies to initially sell for a loss and expect a profit down the line, after economies of scale have been achieved, efficiencies are discovered on the assembly line, amortized tooling costs go down, bugs are worked out, etc..............

This is GM we're talking about, no efficiencies are going to be discovered and utilized on the assembly line nor any saviings because the union would prevent that from happening.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on January 02, 2009, 05:45:39 PM
Quote from: NomisR on January 02, 2009, 03:58:54 PM
This is GM we're talking about, no efficiencies are going to be discovered and utilized on the assembly line nor any saviings because the union would prevent that from happening.
Yeah, time for Darwin to work his magic.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Nethead on January 13, 2009, 09:32:54 AM
'Found this on a website this morning:

"Rumors have been swirling for weeks, but GM made it official today: The Camaro has been delayed. Again.

To 95% of Americans, the production Camaro will be identical to the concept that debuted three years ago. GM announced today that the 10,000 preorders taken since October 2008 won't be filled until after October 2009--almost 4 years after the unveiling. Based on standard vehicle lifecycles, the Camaro will be due for a redesign three months after the first one sells. What's worse, the Camaro convertible has been delayed until 2011."
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on January 13, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
Shame about the delay, but expected. GM is dying on the vine - now is no time to continue to spend money on an unreleased model - it has enough trouble just keeping current operations going.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on January 13, 2009, 10:24:51 AM
The Camaro will not see the light of day. It's dead. Over. Those GM workers I talked to knew something the rest of us don't. 10,000 deposit refunds coming.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on January 13, 2009, 11:11:24 AM
This is pathetic.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on January 13, 2009, 11:14:58 AM
At least we know what'll be the next hot ticket item at Barrett-Jacksons in the next few years. There are a few "production" cars out there.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on January 13, 2009, 11:15:28 AM
A damn shame as it had definite potential to be best in class.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on January 13, 2009, 11:22:59 AM
A black SS was to be my "midlife crisis" car.  :cry:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Nethead on January 13, 2009, 11:27:23 AM
Quote from: Payman on January 13, 2009, 10:24:51 AM
The Camaro will not see the light of day. It's dead. Over. Those GM workers I talked to knew something the rest of us don't. 10,000 deposit refunds coming.

I hope you weren't one of the 10,000 depositors--if GM files Chapter 11 or any other "chapter" of bankruptcy those depositors become creditors and may get the shaft if GM can't remain operating long enough to manufacture their Camaros.  Then it will be up to the bankruptcy courts to decide what percentage--if any--the depositors/creditors will get back from whatever funds GM has or whatever funds can be obtained through the liquidation of GM assets.

Hot tip:  DO NOT pay a deposit on any Camaro that isn't sitting on the showroom floor.  Or on any other GM vehicle for that matter--but especially the Camaro since it is not yet in production and it is a car that sensible management (not much worry there, fanboyz :lol:) would can before any more money is sunk into a car that is out of touch with the times.  Contracts with the CAW and perhaps with various Canadian agencies who sorta had an agreement with GM that Camaros & Firebirds would be built in a Canadian factory if they're ever built at all is about the only prayer that the Camaro has left.  Of course, in bankruptcy those agreements do not have to be honored...
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on January 13, 2009, 12:52:42 PM
I read that it was a one month delay in Camaro production.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on January 13, 2009, 12:59:51 PM
I'm glad I didn't put a deposit down n a SS. But I've been waitin too long for this car to hit the road. I'm done with all the ups and downs. Today I start looking for a nice,low milege C6 Vette.  :banghead:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Raza on January 13, 2009, 01:27:35 PM
Shame.  The convertible actually looks good, and competition always makes competitors better.

Although, I might be able to afford an SS convertible in 2011, should it actually come out.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on January 13, 2009, 05:45:45 PM
Quote from: Nethead on January 13, 2009, 09:32:54 AM
'Found this on a website this morning:

"Rumors have been swirling for weeks, but GM made it official today: The Camaro has been delayed. Again.

To 95% of Americans, the production Camaro will be identical to the concept that debuted three years ago. GM announced today that the 10,000 preorders taken since October 2008 won't be filled until after October 2009--almost 4 years after the unveiling. Based on standard vehicle lifecycles, the Camaro will be due for a redesign three months after the first one sells. What's worse, the Camaro convertible has been delayed until 2011."


Production was only delayed by 1 month.  Instead of starting in February, they're starting in March.  Also, what they said was that they anticipate all orders to be filled by October at the latest, not that they'd start filling orders in October.  In other words, some folks may see their cars in May, some in July, and the absolute latest a person who pre-ordered may expect their car is October.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on January 16, 2009, 08:47:40 AM
G8, Camaro to be the last Zeta-based cars sold in U.S.

General Motors? rear-wheel drive revolution was put on hold a couple of years ago, but it looks as though the revolution is now officially dead. The upcoming Chevrolet Camaro will be the last car to ride on GM?s Zeta platform in the U.S., with future derivatives likely cancelled.

GM?s Zeta platform underpins the Pontiac G8 and the upcoming Chevy Camaro, but that will be the last we see of the Zeta architecture ? in any form ? in the U.S. Before the recent financial crisis hit, GM was planning to combine its Zeta and Sigma architectures into a new Alpha platform, giving the company a base for next-generation small and mid-size rear-drivers. However, that plan is now essentially dead.

?The strategy we had a few years ago of basically deriving a whole sweeping global portfolio off the Australian Zeta architecture ? frankly, we have had to abandon that dream,? GM vice chairman Bob Lutz told GoAuto.

GM?s Alpha platform was earmarked to underpin several future models, including the Cadillac CTS sedan and Pontiac Solstice. The Alphas platform would have likely underpinned a smaller Cadillac sedan as well.

But now that the Alpha program has been cancelled, the future of those models remains up in the air. The CTS will likely continue on its aging Sigma platform, but the Pontiac Solstice and smaller Cadillac model could be scrapped altogether.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on January 16, 2009, 08:54:44 AM
GM is dead.  They might as well just start waving the white flag.  Get your Camaros while you can guys.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: omicron on January 16, 2009, 08:58:19 AM
If Ford and GM's joint decision to cancel their Australian-developed global RWD platforms somehow kills one or both of the Falcon and Commodore, so help me Lutz I will castrate you all with tin snips.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Nethead on January 16, 2009, 09:06:16 AM
Quote from: omicron on January 16, 2009, 08:58:19 AM
If Ford and GM's joint decision to cancel their Australian-developed global RWD platforms somehow kills one or both of the Falcon and Commodore, so help me Lutz I will castrate you all with tin snips.
omicron:  Australia's automotive market has never needed the US market to survive at any time in its past, and surely doesn't need the US market (what market?) in these troubled times.  Carry on with those great products and all the terrific aftermarket parts developed Down Under!  Be glad you're there and not here!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: omicron on January 16, 2009, 09:44:57 AM
Quote from: Nethead on January 16, 2009, 09:06:16 AM
omicron:  Australia's automotive market has never needed the US market to survive at any time in its past, and surely doesn't need the US market (what market?) in these troubled times.  Carry on with those great products and all the terrific aftermarket parts developed Down Under!  Be glad you're there and not here!

Not so. The first batch of 1960 Falcons imported from America suffered suspension failure - the front suspension ball joints simply collapsed on harsh dirt roads so common in Oz at the time. The Falcon name was so tarnished by '64 that had the Ford America not chipped in with the capital to survive another year and develop the improved '65 XP and '66 XR Falcons, Ford Australia would have abandoned local manufacturing altogether and become merely an importer.

Similarly, General Motors-Holden's collapsed in 1986, and had its North American parent not written off its debts and provided additional capital, the Holden brand would either have been sold or simply allowed to die. According to several books I've read, the difference between cutting Holden loose and absorbing its losses or paying for its rescue was only $40 million; chicken feed compared to the debts of near-on $800 million.

Admittedly, the situation is somewhat different these days. I think both are at break-even, having experienced quite comfortable profits through the '90s and early part of this decade, but in this day and age of consolidation and cost-minimisation, I'd imagine it would be much, much harder to gain approval for a unique RWD platform sold within a comparatively tiny market. The export situation isn't all roses, either - the G8 ST has been cancelled, the G8 isn't selling anywhere near as well as forecast, the Falcon isn't made in LHD at all, and so on. Only in the Middle East can Holden really pencil in a big fat tick - any other market such as New Zealand, South Africa and the like require such small volumes that they're not particularly concerning to GM as a whole if sales consist of Holden cars, American-made Chevrolets, Korean-made GM Daewoos etc.

We shall see. Both Ford Australia and GM Holden have had to fight their US parents for years to proceed with every new generation of Falcon and Commodore since the '80s, so they're certainly prepared to make their respective cases once more.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on January 16, 2009, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: omicron on January 16, 2009, 08:58:19 AM
If Ford and GM's joint decision to cancel their Australian-developed global RWD platforms somehow kills one or both of the Falcon and Commodore, so help me Lutz I will castrate you all with tin snips.

I think if we've learned anything about Lutz it is that he frequently talks above his station.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: nickdrinkwater on January 16, 2009, 12:10:11 PM
Embarassing for GM but hardly a surprise.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: ChrisV on January 19, 2009, 08:29:42 AM
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/170090/1640597d.jpg)

Auto Express Car Reviews
19th January 2009

Here are the pictures that prove that Chevrolet's Camaro Cabriolet is still on target for launch next year.

What's more, this latest model also helps prove that it won't just be US enthusaists that get to enjoy its good looks and impressive performance...

For the first time ever, buyers in the UK will be offered the model too.

The newcomer, spied testing in the Australian outback, had been rumoured to be victim of parent firm GM's latest round of cost cutting. However these latest pictures dismiss that out of hand.

Just like its fixed-roof stablemate, the new drop-top is will be powered by a 6.0-litre V8, delivering more than 400bhp to the rear wheels. Drivers will also be offered a six-speed manual gearbox. It also had independent rear suspension.

Both versions of the Camaro will be available in the US later this year, with right-hand-drive variants expected to reach UK showrooms in 2010.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on January 19, 2009, 11:22:33 AM
I don't understand why GM couldn't creat one RWD platform to underpin several models.

Much like nissan does with the FM platform, they have one that they are able to modify to build rwd cars ranging from 2 seat z cars to 4 door luxury cars like the G and M series. It also is used for suv's like the EX and i believe FX.

Why does GM seem to need 2-3 to make half as many models, god GM sucks.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on January 19, 2009, 01:47:02 PM
I'm not holding my breath!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on January 19, 2009, 04:56:45 PM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on January 19, 2009, 11:22:33 AM
I don't understand why GM couldn't creat one RWD platform to underpin several models.

Much like nissan does with the FM platform, they have one that they are able to modify to build rwd cars ranging from 2 seat z cars to 4 door luxury cars like the G and M series. It also is used for suv's like the EX and i believe FX.

Why does GM seem to need 2-3 to make half as many models, god GM sucks.


That was the original plan... until the new CAFE standards were established.

I hope the Camaro will see the light of day, but I'm also not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Nethead on January 20, 2009, 09:02:13 PM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on January 19, 2009, 11:22:33 AM
I don't understand why GM couldn't creat one RWD platform to underpin several models.

Much like nissan does with the FM platform, they have one that they are able to modify to build rwd cars ranging from 2 seat z cars to 4 door luxury cars like the G and M series. It also is used for suv's like the EX and i believe FX.

Why does GM seem to need 2-3 to make half as many models, god GM sucks.

FlatBlackCaddy:  FBCdude, the original plan was to build around a half dozen or so models off the Zeta Light platform, of which the Camaro was the one that made it closest to production.  I think the Zeta Light was to underpin a RWD Impala, some smallish four-door, a station wagon, a mini-SUV in the vein of the RAV4 or the Escape, a small van-like affair a la the Scion xB, and maybe other versions down the road (Solstice/Sky/Aura replacement?).  Wishful thinkers were calling for a Chevelle and yet another GTO...

The compromises needed to accomodate such a broad sweep of variants has no doubt contributed to the long, long, long gestation of the Camaro. It may be that the Zeta Light design preceded the decision to come up with something in response to the Mustang (flat-footed again), and the cheapest & quickest expedient may have been to add one more variant to the Zeta Light.  Think how long it might have taken if the decision had been to develop a Camaro-specific platform!  Whew!

Anyway, the Zeta Heavy platform now appears doubtful to underpin anything, albeit partly an Economy issue as well as an engineering issue...Since the chassis is heavy anyway, it might become the underpinnings of an electric vehicle whose hefty batteries are gonna make chassis weight a secondary issue...See! Yet another variant emerges! 
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: omicron on January 21, 2009, 06:04:15 AM
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/170090/1640597d.jpg)

Quotespied testing in the Australian outback

:orly:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on February 18, 2009, 04:34:02 PM
Does anyone actually believe this car is ever going to see the light of day?  I'm really having my doubts now.  Check out the latest report about what's going on with that bankrupt supplier.




Bankrupt Chevy Camaro parts supplier sues GM for $4.9m

The Chevrolet Camaro is one of a handful of new products that has the potential to create some buzz for the ailing automaker, but one GM?s Camaro supplier is turning out to be just that ? a real handful. Auto supplier Candence was charged with supplying interior parts for the upcoming pony car, but was forced into Chapter 11 bankruptcy last August. That quickly resulted in a lawsuit from GM, which Candence has now followed with a countersuit.

Candence?s lawsuit against GM claims the Detroit automaker owes it $4.9 million for parts, labor and equipment, according to Reuters. Troy, Michigan-based Candence ? which is now in Chapter 7 liquidation ? says that GM?s failure to pay could disrupt its bankruptcy process.

?GM?s breach of contract will result in substantial harm to Cadence?s bankruptcy estate, which is dependent on the funds that GM must pay to Cadence to confirm a plan in its bankruptcy case,? the parts supplier said in a statement.

Per a previous October ruling, GM is required to pay Candence on an expedited schedule for parts and services, on account of its bankruptcy filing.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on February 18, 2009, 04:40:21 PM
The saga continues!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Sigma Projects on February 18, 2009, 05:57:06 PM
Real bumber if this car doesn't come out. That 300hp RS was look really good.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 06:00:08 PM
The title of this thread has always bothered me. I keep thinking of dead babies.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Sigma Projects on February 18, 2009, 06:36:40 PM
lol, yea kinda does have that feeling.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sandertheshark on February 18, 2009, 07:22:34 PM
Quote from: NACar on February 18, 2009, 06:00:08 PM
The title of this thread has always bothered me. I keep thinking of dead babies.

What's funnier than a dead baby in a trashcan?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Onslaught on February 18, 2009, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: sandertheshark on February 18, 2009, 07:22:34 PM
What's funnier than a dead baby in a trashcan?
Twins in one?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 08:25:47 PM
One dead baby in two trashcans?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 08:28:13 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 08:25:47 PM
One dead baby in two trashcans?

Yes

What else is funnier than a dead baby?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 08:34:50 PM
A dead baby in a clown suit.

How do you make a dead baby float?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 08:36:15 PM
Take your foot off its head

or

two scoops of ice cream, one scoop of dead baby.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 08:39:02 PM
What's the difference between 100 dead babies and a Volvo wagon?





Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on February 18, 2009, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: NACar on February 18, 2009, 08:39:02 PM
What's the difference between 100 dead babies and a Volvo wagon?

Women will actually go near a guy with 100 dead babies.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Eye of the Tiger on February 18, 2009, 08:42:49 PM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 18, 2009, 08:41:47 PM
Women will actually go near a guy with 100 dead babies.

That, and I only keep the Volvo in the garage at night.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sandertheshark on February 18, 2009, 08:58:45 PM
I have unleashed a monster.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: NACar on February 18, 2009, 08:39:02 PM
What's the difference between 100 dead babies and a Volvo wagon?







Neither of the humans to whom they belong will ever own a new Camaro?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: ChrisV on March 09, 2009, 08:12:03 AM
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/172349/1722536d.jpg)

GM's Oshawa plant, this month.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 09, 2009, 09:07:34 AM
The Challenger and Mustang look much better.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 09, 2009, 09:09:35 AM
I disagree, I have been in love with this Camaro ever since we saw the concept.

I am a little concerned about comments regarding interior quality and the belt-line though.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 09, 2009, 09:14:43 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 09, 2009, 09:07:34 AM
The Challenger and Mustang look much better.

I agree. I haven't seen either the new redesign mustang or the camaro in person. However the last gen(prior to the refresh) and challenger look great. The front of the camaro looks good but i just can't get over that quarter hump(not real bad) and those "gills" on the rear quarter(maybe those didn't make production).
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 09, 2009, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 09, 2009, 09:14:43 AM
I agree. I haven't seen either the new redesign mustang or the camaro in person. However the last gen(prior to the refresh) and challenger look great. The front of the camaro looks good but i just can't get over that quarter hump(not real bad) and those "gills" on the rear quarter(maybe those didn't make production).
I really don't like how the car looks like it was welded together at the back of the door.  It almost looks like 2 different cars were cut in half and spliced together.

(http://www.bigredsplace.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/chevrolet-camaro-concept-2006-712141-thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on March 09, 2009, 09:25:58 AM
Uh, I'm not so hot on the yellow; red, silver and black looks great - and much better looking than the Challenger, and I'll have to wait to see the 2010 Mustang refresh in person to decide.

As with all pony cars success will come down to chicks buying the base model, but this just doesn't look like a chick car.

And yes, looks like it's anything but stillborn.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on March 09, 2009, 09:57:17 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 09, 2009, 09:18:20 AM
I really don't like how the car looks like it was welded together at the back of the door.  It almost looks like 2 different cars were cut in half and spliced together.

(http://www.bigredsplace.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/chevrolet-camaro-concept-2006-712141-thumb.jpg)

That however is the prototype (note the non-functional mirrors and door handles). Though designers carried the design motif threw to production, I see subtle differences that mess with prototype proportions a bit:

At a minimum, I see a much greater rear track/rear wheel offser, a squished front grill, and a slightly longer rear window.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 09, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
That rear haunch still looks exactly the same though, and that's the part that bothers me.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: ChrisV on March 09, 2009, 11:41:34 AM
I think in real life it'll look a lot more like this one than people think:

(http://www.firstgencamaro.com/1968camarofactspics/1968camarocoupe2.gif)

very similar rear quarters.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 11:53:40 AM
Quote from: TBR on March 09, 2009, 09:09:35 AM
I disagree, I have been in love with this Camaro ever since we saw the concept.

I am a little concerned about comments regarding interior quality and the belt-line though.

I have a problem with (http://www.carspin.net/forums/Smileys/carspin/deadhorse.gif).

I could again, but you have my opinion already.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 09, 2009, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: ChrisV on March 09, 2009, 11:41:34 AM
I think in real life it'll look a lot more like this one than people think:

(http://www.firstgencamaro.com/1968camarofactspics/1968camarocoupe2.gif)

very similar rear quarters.
I've seen it in person and it looks just like the photos.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sportyaccordy on March 09, 2009, 01:39:58 PM
Wow the first gen Camaros might be the best looking musclecars this side of the little Fox body Stangers
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 09, 2009, 01:42:14 PM
I still think the reborn Camaro should have looked like this:

(http://images.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr-5camaro05_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on March 09, 2009, 02:05:36 PM
I think the 2010 Camaro is a knockout as is, and even if the styling isn't for everyone, the value proposition is simply unbeatable.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 09, 2009, 02:26:11 PM
I know alot of people want this car to be huge for GM(it will be image wise) sales wise but i just don't see how this story will end any differently than the book of GTO and G8. I'm sure out of the gate they will be very popular but like the GTO/G8(those went from all the rage, to neat, to "who gives a fuck" in all of 3 years) the camaro will be just another big rebate give away to get them off the lots.


Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: 93JC on March 09, 2009, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 09, 2009, 01:42:14 PM
I still think the reborn Camaro should have looked like this:

(http://images.popularhotrodding.com/features/0309phr-5camaro05_z.jpg)

Blech, that looks like complete ass.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 03:52:02 PM
A Kappa-based Camaro would have been smarter, imo.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Galaxy on March 09, 2009, 03:55:22 PM
They should have made it look like the SS concept from 2003.

(http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2000-2003/2003-Chevy-SS-Concept-Car-front-angle.jpg)
(http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2000-2003/2003-Chevy-SS-Concept-Car-side.jpg)
(http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2000-2003/2003-Chevy-SS-Concept-Car-rear-angle-1280x960.jpg)

In my opinion one of the best American concepts from recent time. In fact I will post this in Hemi's concept thread.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on March 09, 2009, 04:26:41 PM
^ looks like a RX-8 stretched in photoshop
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 04:35:49 PM
It isn't like GM hasn't copied Mazda before for sports cars. 

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Mazda-RX-7-FD.jpg/800px-Mazda-RX-7-FD.jpg)

(http://img2.netcarshow.com/Chevrolet-Corvette_C5_1997_800x600_wallpaper_04.jpg)
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Cookie Monster on March 09, 2009, 05:22:01 PM
What the hell are you talking about? The C6 looks nothing like the FD. :nutty:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: giant_mtb on March 09, 2009, 06:52:49 PM
:wtf:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on March 09, 2009, 06:54:38 PM
Give the FD fixed projectors and the similarity is there.  The C5 looked even more like the FD given it's flip-up lamps (IIRC, GM even admitted using the FD as inspiration for the C5's styling).
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
Quote from: thecarnut on March 09, 2009, 05:22:01 PM
What the hell are you talking about? The C6 looks nothing like the FD. :nutty:

Are we seeing different pictures?  I posted a picture of a C5.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: GoCougs on March 09, 2009, 07:55:48 PM
wat
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: giant_mtb on March 09, 2009, 07:56:26 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
Are we seeing different pictures?  I posted a picture of a C5.

No, you didn't.  That's a C6.  C5 = flip-up lamps.  C6 = integrated lamps. 
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 08:07:10 PM
Weird, because I am seeing a red 1997 C5 on my screen right now.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: MX793 on March 09, 2009, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
Are we seeing different pictures?  I posted a picture of a C5.

It's a C6 with the message:  "Image hotlinked - please use an embed code".  Basically a nice way of them telling you not to hog their bandwidth.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Cookie Monster on March 09, 2009, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on March 09, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
Are we seeing different pictures?  I posted a picture of a C5.
It's a picture of a C6.

C5, I agree, C6, no.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 18, 2009, 06:12:09 PM
Camaros are arriving at dealerships. Just let me say I've never been happier to be wrong.

:tounge:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 18, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
They just started making the cars for customers a few days ago, i doubt those cars are hitting dealerships. The floor models/training cars are making the rounds from what i hear.

They'll be a hell of a buy when the reach the end of the GTO/G8 cycle. I expect that in a year you can get a 32-35K SS for around 24K if you can haggle and navigate your way through the endless maze of rebates.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 18, 2009, 06:19:51 PM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 18, 2009, 06:15:01 PM
They just started making the cars for customers a few days ago, i doubt those cars are hitting dealerships. The floor models/training cars are making the rounds from what i hear.

They'll be a hell of a buy when the reach the end of the GTO/G8 cycle. I expect that in a year you can get a 32-35K SS for around 24K if you can haggle and navigate your way through the endless maze of rebates.

The dealer here just got a silver LT today, albeit a demo car. I haven't seen it yet... I'll check for sure tomorrow.

And next spring is when daddy gets his black SS.  :tounge:
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on March 18, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
Quote from: Payman on March 18, 2009, 06:19:51 PM

And next spring is when daddy gets his black SS.  :tounge:
You won't be the only one!
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Raza on March 18, 2009, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: ChrisV on March 09, 2009, 08:12:03 AM
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/172349/1722536d.jpg)

GM's Oshawa plant, this month.

Looks photoshopped to me.

Does that yellow one have a sunroof?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 18, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
Quote from: Raza  link=topic=16973.msg1022407#msg1022407 date=1237426443
Looks photoshopped to me.

Does that yellow one have a sunroof?
You're right it does.  The red ones all have identically placed white plastic on the body...and I mean identical.  It's different on the yellow ones.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 18, 2009, 07:44:53 PM
No, that's the real deal.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Raza on March 18, 2009, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 18, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
You're right it does.  The red ones all have identically placed white plastic on the body...and I mean identical.  It's different on the yellow ones.

Oh, I was kidding about the photoshopped thing, but now that you mention it...
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 18, 2009, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: Raza  on March 18, 2009, 07:34:03 PM
Looks photoshopped to me.

Does that yellow one have a sunroof?

A sunroof is optional.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 18, 2009, 07:51:03 PM
Quote from: TBR on March 18, 2009, 07:49:19 PM
A sunroof is optional.

Isn't it odd that all the yellow(and looks like black) have a sunroof but all the red car(of which the vast majority are) don't have one and the wrap(as pointed out) is identical in the ones visable.

Probably a photoshop, GM is trying to pretend that they aren't just sucking the american taxpayer dry and actually still trying to be a car company.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 18, 2009, 07:58:44 PM
http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/automotive-hendrick-gets-first-camaros/
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: sandertheshark on March 18, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 18, 2009, 07:51:03 PM

Probably a photoshop, GM is trying to pretend that they aren't just sucking the american taxpayer dry and actually still trying to be a car company.

Well, GM is being sucked dry by the UAW, and Obama's tax plan is going to screw all those poor sons of bitches who are making six figs without a college degree.  So it all works out, you see.  The karmic circle closes.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Raza on March 18, 2009, 08:01:38 PM
Quote from: sandertheshark on March 18, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
Well, GM is being sucked dry by the UAW, and Obama's tax plan is going to screw all those poor sons of bitches who are making six figs without a college degree.  So it all works out, you see.  The karmic circle closes.

I'd work for GM.  As long as they pay me no more than $249K.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 18, 2009, 08:03:44 PM
Quote from: sandertheshark on March 18, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
Well, GM is being sucked dry by the UAW, and Obama's tax plan is going to screw all those poor sons of bitches who are making six figs without a college degree.  So it all works out, you see.  The karmic circle closes.

Whatever, as long as my boy rick keeps pulling in G's that's all that matters. He's worked hard and it shows, if the UAW would have put in some effort his hard work wouldn't have been for nothing.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2009, 01:30:20 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 18, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
You're right it does.  The red ones all have identically placed white plastic on the body...and I mean identical.  It's different on the yellow ones.

I hate this argument.

FWIW, that is Oshawa.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Cookie Monster on March 19, 2009, 01:33:09 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 18, 2009, 07:38:38 PM
You're right it does.  The red ones all have identically placed white plastic on the body...and I mean identical.  It's different on the yellow ones.
Look at the signs on the windshield of all the red cars... they are in slightly different places, so it isn't a photoshop.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 19, 2009, 07:57:01 AM
Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2009, 01:30:20 AM


I hate this argument.

FWIW, that is Oshawa.

It's really quite desperate, isn't it? I am not sure why people care so much, this will hardly be the first time the Camaro was better performing than the Mustang.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: r0tor on March 19, 2009, 08:18:09 AM
Quote from: Raza  on March 18, 2009, 07:34:03 PM
Looks photoshopped to me.

Does that yellow one have a sunroof?

That pic has been proven to have at least a false context as it was weeks before the first production customer car rolled off the line to rick hendrick 2 days ago
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 19, 2009, 09:31:06 AM
Quote from: r0tor on March 19, 2009, 08:18:09 AM
That pic has been proven to have at least a false context as it was weeks before the first production customer car rolled off the line to rick hendrick 2 days ago

The first production car did not roll off the line 2 or 3 days ago... more like weeks ago. It was probably delivered to him a few days ago.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 19, 2009, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: Payman on March 19, 2009, 09:31:06 AM
The first production car did not roll off the line 2 or 3 days ago... more like weeks ago. It was probably delivered to him a few days ago.
March 16th was the first day a production Camaro rolled off the line.

Rick Hendrick drives the first 2010 Camaro off the assembly line
Posted by Doug Demmons-- The Birmingham News March 17, 2009 1:40 PM

NASCAR team owner Rick Hendrick was in Ontario on Monday at the GM plant there to take delivery of the first production model 2010 Camaro to roll off the line -- VIN #0001.

Hendrick wasn't just picked to receive the first Camaro. It cost him $385,000 after he made the winning bid for the car at the Barrett-Jackson auction in January.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: the Teuton on March 19, 2009, 10:09:41 AM
I sat in a preproduction, hand-built car, I take it?
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Rich on March 19, 2009, 10:10:40 AM
Those Camaros on the lot were preproduction line validation cars.  Not to be sold to the public, but are otherwise the same as the salable cars
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 19, 2009, 10:12:20 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 19, 2009, 10:05:59 AM
March 16th was the first day a production Camaro rolled off the line.

Rick Hendrick drives the first 2010 Camaro off the assembly line
Posted by Doug Demmons-- The Birmingham News March 17, 2009 1:40 PM

NASCAR team owner Rick Hendrick was in Ontario on Monday at the GM plant there to take delivery of the first production model 2010 Camaro to roll off the line -- VIN #0001.

Hendrick wasn't just picked to receive the first Camaro. It cost him $385,000 after he made the winning bid for the car at the Barrett-Jackson auction in January.


Probably a staged photo op. I'm hearing some insider stuff about the line running for weeks now. I have to go see if the dealer here really does have a demo on the lot...
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on March 19, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
Camaro deliveries have been pushed back a few weeks from what i've been hearing.

Apparently the first few loads have been damaging transport rigs, DOT officials and GM as well as the trucking company engineers have discovered the problem is a result of the camaro's curb weight. Apparently the trucking company was under the impression they were transporting 2 door sports cars and sent trailers rated for such. The trucking company has dispatched the proper trailers and will be back on track in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Payman on March 19, 2009, 10:51:38 AM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 19, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
Camaro deliveries have been pushed back a few weeks from what i've been hearing.

Apparently the first few loads have been damaging transport rigs, DOT officials and GM as well as the trucking company engineers have discovered the problem is a result of the camaro's curb weight. Apparently the trucking company was under the impression they were transporting 2 door sports cars and sent trailers rated for such. The trucking company has dispatched the proper trailers and will be back on track in a few weeks.

Wow, not good.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: Laconian on March 19, 2009, 10:57:42 AM
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 19, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
Camaro deliveries have been pushed back a few weeks from what i've been hearing.

Apparently the first few loads have been damaging transport rigs, DOT officials and GM as well as the trucking company engineers have discovered the problem is a result of the camaro's curb weight. Apparently the trucking company was under the impression they were transporting 2 door sports cars and sent trailers rated for such. The trucking company has dispatched the proper trailers and will be back on track in a few weeks.
:clap:

Or is this story just a sarcastic jibe at the Camaro's curb weight...
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 19, 2009, 11:04:04 AM
Quote from: Payman on March 19, 2009, 10:51:38 AM
Wow, not good.

He's kidding.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: SVT666 on March 19, 2009, 11:04:55 AM
When arranging for transport, they have to provide weights.  They also use car transports which are all rated for pickups and SUVs, so I think this is a classic FBC jab.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: TBR on March 19, 2009, 11:12:23 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 19, 2009, 11:04:55 AM
When arranging for transport, they have to provide weights.  They also use car transports which are all rated for pickups and SUVs, so I think this is a classic FBC jab.

On top of that, the Camaro isn't really that heavy. Well, it is, but so are most other 2-door coupes these days.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: NomisR on March 19, 2009, 12:13:31 PM
Quote from: TBR on March 19, 2009, 11:12:23 AM
On top of that, the Camaro isn't really that heavy. Well, it is, but so are most other 2-door coupes these days.

I haven't owned a car over 3000lb yet... well, one's on the edge though.
Title: Re: Camaro stillborn???
Post by: ChrisV on March 19, 2009, 12:47:13 PM
Quote from: NomisR on March 19, 2009, 12:13:31 PM
I haven't owned a car over 3000lb yet... well, one's on the edge though.

I've had cars that weigh in the neighborhood of 1300 lbs, and I've had cars over 4000 lbs.

Had fun in both. Love my current 4000+ lb daily driver.