General Motors to eliminate Saturn brand, phase-out Pontiac
General Motors announced at press conference Tuesday evening the closure of the Saturn brand, and a de-emphasis on Pontiac. Saturndealerships will be closed by 2011, and no new models will be introduced under the nameplate. Meanwhile, Pontiac will be phased out as a distinct division. Certain ?niche? models will still cary the Pontiac name, but they will be sold at Chevrolet dealerships.
The announcement is part of GM?s viability plan being submitted to the U.S. Congress and President Obama today. The brand pullback comes in addition to the planned sale of Hummer, and the potential spin-off of Saab. GM notes Hummer might be shut down after March 31st if a buyer for the brand is not found.
In its 20-year history, the Saturn brand has never been profitable for GM. Most auto journalists would agree Saturn?s new models are vastly improved, but for reasons possibly related to a poor brand perception, sales have not improved proportionally.
Since most of Saturn?s new cars are rebadged Opels, it?s conceivable that GM could attempt to sell certain imported Opel models under the Chevrolet name, though that is purely speculation at this point.
Aw man!
Well, GM does need to cut the fat. I just hope some other company (The Chinese, The French, The Italians) can buy up those excess dealers.
Just when they were getting good... But it's a good move, I think.
As soon as GM gave up making unique vehicles for Saturn I knew it would happen. :(
Hmm
QuoteDETROIT -- Saturn dealers are planning to spin off from General Motors Corp. into a new company that will seek to sell third-party vehicles under the Saturn brand, according to Dan Januska, the owner of Saturn of Scottsdale.
The Saturn dealers have been anxious about their future after GM said it needed to restructure the brand as part of plans submitted to the federal government in December. GM released a new viability plan to the Treasury department Tuesday as it seeks more federal loans to ensure its survival.
Saturn dealers will continue to buy vehicles from GM for as long as they are produced, according to Mr. Januska, who said the brand will likely be phased out in a few years. He declined to be more specific.
"It's a good distribution network. If someone comes up with an offer, we're very open to that." GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner told a press conference. GM intends to produce new Saturns only for the current product line up which expires in 2011, according to the company's latest plan as submitted to Treasury.
Under the new plan, Mr. Januska said, Saturn dealers would be open to selling vehicles made by Indian or Chinese manufacturers that would be sold as Saturns. "There are not a whole lot of alternatives," said Mr. Januska, who is on the Saturn Dealer Council. "Someone is going to see the value of us and I don't know who it will be."
He added that the dealers would work with GM on how to structure the new entity for the next 60 days.
I remember the buzz around saturn in the early 90's. The unique(for GM) fuel efficient vehicles and the buying experience that made none car people into car people, it was a very attractive experience to the casual car buyer. I recall many stories of happy buyers and their experience with the dealers, the employees and the cars.
Then in the mid 90's GM stepped in and tried to "integrate" their "different kind of car company" into the herd. A short 10 years later saturn is on the block just moments away from having it's head fall into the basket.
Over the years i've realized that GM's biggest enemy is itself.
Saab can't be far behind Saturn. I think GM should really evaluate Cadillac and Buick also. Cadillac should be the only luxury brand.
Quote from: Catman on February 17, 2009, 08:41:46 PM
Saab can't be far behind Saturn. I think GM should really evaluate Cadillac and Buick also. Cadillac should be the only luxury brand.
For some reason i see saab "retreating" back to a standalone company. I dont' know why but it seems to me they don't have to fall with GM.
I Agree that no matter what happens to GM(bankruptcy or not) there really is only room for chevrolet and cadillac. Anything else will just result in lackluster funding and brand overlap.
Ugh, this is bad news for my dealership.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:44:05 PM
I Agree that no matter what happens to GM(bankruptcy or not) there really is only room for chevrolet and cadillac. Anything else will just result in lackluster funding and brand overlap.
I think the idea of keeping the Pontiac name alive for niche offerings is a good decision. I don't really see that working for Buick. I agree with you though.
Quote from: R-inge on February 17, 2009, 08:45:57 PM
Ugh, this is bad news for my dealership.
Saturn or Pontiac?
Quote from: Catman on February 17, 2009, 08:46:03 PM
I think the idea of keeping the Pontiac name alive for niche offerings is a good decision. I don't really seeing that working for Buick. I agree with you though.
In theory yes, but in reality pontiac would just be another brand filled with compromised models. They wouldn't offer nothing that chevy or cadillac couldn't offer.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:47:13 PM
In theory yes, but in reality pontiac would just be another brand filled with compromised models. They wouldn't offer nothing that chevy or cadillac couldn't offer.
Right, I agree it should be eliminated. But I think it would be good to say, import a Commodore, call it a Pontiac G8 and sell it at a Chevrolet dealer.
So you mean pontiac as a trim line? But really badged under chevrolet?
Sounds complicated and given pontiacs image over the last decade it would be pointless. Pontiac(to anyone under 40) evokes images of cladded up 4 cylinder cars with little to no performance image.
Quote from: Catman on February 17, 2009, 08:46:42 PM
Saturn or Pontiac?
We have a Saturn branch next door, and I work on Pontiacs which we sell in the same building, along with GMC and Buick. So basically one bunch of techs is going to lose their jobs, and we're going to lose 1/3 of our potential future customers and service work.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:51:26 PM
So you mean pontiac as a trim line? But really badged under chevrolet?
Sounds complicated and given pontiacs image over the last decade it would be pointless. Pontiac(to anyone under 40) evokes images of cladded up 4 cylinder cars with little to no performance image.
Not really a trim line. Like they said, "Niche" vehicles.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:44:05 PM
I Agree that no matter what happens to GM(bankruptcy or not) there really is only room for chevrolet and cadillac. Anything else will just result in lackluster funding and brand overlap.
And Buick. China is a HUGE and ever expanding market.
Quote from: R-inge on February 17, 2009, 08:52:40 PM
We have a Saturn branch next door, and I work on Pontiacs which we sell in the same building, along with GMC and Buick. So basically one bunch of techs is going to lose their jobs, and we're going to lose 1/3 of our potential future customers and service work.
Doesn't seem avoidable at this point. :(
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2009, 08:54:24 PM
And Buick. China is a HUGE and ever expanding market.
Simple solution, Chinese buicks = cadillac USA.
Sell chevrolet/buick in china and chevrolet/cadillac in other markets. Face it, china has higher standards for buick then americans(cady buyers in particular) have for cadillac. The result would be a simple grille change and allow joint development that would result in better cadillacs for america.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:59:05 PM
Simple solution, Chinese buicks = cadillac USA.
Sell chevrolet/buick in china and chevrolet/cadillac in other markets. Face it, china has higher standards for buick then americans(cady buyers in particular) have for cadillac. The result would be a simple grille change and allow joint development that would result in better cadillacs for america.
Not quite. Buicks are floaty, comfortable rides. Cadillacs are Sportier.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:59:05 PM
Simple solution, Chinese buicks = cadillac USA.
Sell chevrolet/buick in china and chevrolet/cadillac in other markets. Face it, china has higher standards for buick then americans(cady buyers in particular) have for cadillac. The result would be a simple grille change and allow joint development that would result in better cadillacs for america.
I think the new Lacrosse would fill a void for Cadillac like the ES does for Lexus.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2009, 09:00:13 PM
Not quite. Buicks are floaty, comfortable rides. Cadillacs are Sportier.
doesn't matter. My point is simple. There should only be 2 tiers to ANY market. A mainstream line and a Luxury line. If china wants "floaty" cadillacs as buicks then fine. Retune the suspension and give them a "float" ride.
I don't think the different marques were bad, but having every permutation of each model in each lineup is. VAG can get away with Seven (offhand) marques, but they're not huge.
Pontiac: Sporty cars, right? Then why does the G3, Torrent, G5 (non GXP) and Vibe exist?
Saturn = Opel, then why is the Aura so different? Wouldn't be cheaper to import the Insignia (Then, Vectra) and rebadge rather than creating a new model? Why is there an Outlook AND a GMC?
Buick: Why did it take you so long to specialize?
GMC: Suprisingly, I think this marque is the most Focused.
Chevrolet: It's ok here, but their small cars suck. And why is there a LAMBDA Quartet?
HUMMER = Turns a profit...........but not that big of one. Lose it, GM.
It's a shame about Saturn. For never turning a profit, they seem to have fiercely loyal customers.
Same with Saab, actually. Though I'm sure they made a profit at least once.
And Pontiac? That's a pretty iconic brand, man. It'll suck to see them go. I guess this means no Trans Am based on the new figment-of-the-imagination Camaro.
Quote from: Raza on February 17, 2009, 09:22:39 PM
It's a shame about Saturn. For never turning a profit, they seem to have fiercely loyal customers.
Same with Saab, actually. Though I'm sure they made a profit at least once.
And Pontiac? That's a pretty iconic brand, man. It'll suck to see them go. I guess this means no Trans Am based on the new figment-of-the-imagination Camaro.
It was a good start and a oppertunity for GM. If they could grasp the japanese mentality of continued incremental improvement saturn could have been one of chevrolets larges most profitable "2nd Tier" brand. Instead it tumbled into the fold and become another same but different rebadge outlet.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 09:24:58 PM
It was a good start and a oppertunity for GM. If they could grasp the japanese mentality of continued incremental improvement saturn could have been one of chevrolets larges most profitable "2nd Tier" brand. Instead it tumbled into the fold and become another same but different rebadge outlet.
It was handled fairly poorly, I agree. What sucks the most about this is that most of the Americans (well, 2/3) were beginning to turn it around. Then this crisis struck, and Saturn went from being viable in 5 years (although they did fuck up the Astra, stupid fucking idiots...) and everyone remembers when GM and Ford were shitty.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 17, 2009, 08:00:54 PM
Aw man!
Well, GM does need to cut the fat. I just hope some other company (The Chinese, The French, The Italians) can buy up those excess dealers.
Dealers are generally owned by franchisees so they will simply switch to another brand or take the opportunity to go out of business.
Saturn was an amazingly good idea done with amazingly little follow-up effort after the initial "hit" that was the SL range.
What they should have done vs. what they did:
-Not revise the SL but redesign it as a practical, world class car. The Ion was a piss poor execution, and they knew it.
-Put more effort into making the LS better. First, why did they just invert the letters for the midsize car? Second, why didn't they try to make it class-leading rather than just mediocre and average? I believe it was a case of in-house competition again. GM couldn't let the lowly Saturn brand put out a car that was better than the almighty Intrigue.
The car didn't have the right engines, the right materials, the right price, or the right quality.
-Modernize the polymer processes. Why were they still using the same kinds of expanding plastics on the Ion in 2003 that they used on the shitty-ass APV vans? Technology does improve over time, you know?
-Merge Olds into Saturn rather than killing off both of their philosophies simultaneously. Saturn seemed like the American Civic initially. Olds, at least with the Intrigue, was becoming the American Honda. So why did they turn Saturn all European when they decided to kill off Olds? They answered the question no one asked. People in the US don't buy 400,000 Passats a year.
-Marketing. Who were they trying to attract? In the beginning, it seemed like their target market was a hippie-dippy recent college graduate with sensible tastes. Then, it turned into a grown up, more mature hippie-dippy with a family. It was still marketing to younger, more pragmatic people who didn't want to buy Japanese, didn't want the cheap image of a Neon or Cavalier, and wanted something fun and frugal. Then, they abandoned that market altogether with a "me too" GM attitude, trying to make the brand into an American VW, only sportier. No one caught on.
The loyalty -- almost Harley-Davidson-like in its devotion -- died not with the Ion, but with the Relay. Saturn didn't need a minivan, especially one with steel body panels. They needed a plastic Astra with the price of a Scion xA. Of course at GM this wasn't going to happen.
GM didn't handle the brand well at all.
Harley-like? I don't think so. Maybe Toyota-like. Maybe.
Quote from: Psilos on February 18, 2009, 12:09:34 AM
Harley-like? I don't think so. Maybe Toyota-like. Maybe.
Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?
People did with their Saturns.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 12:16:24 AM
Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?
People did with their Saturns.
I doubt that stuff originated from the grassroots. I sense the meddlesome hand of marketing.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:43:10 PM
For some reason i see saab "retreating" back to a standalone company. I dont' know why but it seems to me they don't have to fall with GM.
That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.
Increasingly, I find I feel GM just doesn't deserve to exist at all. I'm not really sure any of the Detroit 3 do honestly. Ford got lucky though by just about going under 2 years back, and that's saved them now. Chrysler needs to go away, and the fact the GM thinks it still need GMC of all brands show how stupid they are. "Hey, I got a great idea, let's keep the most redundant brand we have!" GM does not deserve to exist. Chrsyler does not deserve to exist. Ford does not deserve to exist (but they will). The only reason I want any of them to continue to at this point is because of the job loss that would come should they no longer exist.
Quote from: cozmik on February 18, 2009, 06:27:27 AM
That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.
Increasingly, I find I feel GM just doesn't deserve to exist at all. I'm not really sure any of the Detroit 3 do honestly. Ford got lucky though by just about going under 2 years back, and that's saved them now. Chrysler needs to go away, and the fact the GM thinks it still need GMC of all brands show how stupid they are. "Hey, I got a great idea, let's keep the most redundant brand we have!" GM does not deserve to exist. Chrsyler does not deserve to exist. Ford does not deserve to exist (but they will). The only reason I want any of them to continue to at this point is because of the job loss that would come should they no longer exist.
GMC is a money-maker. Why get rid of it?
Quote from: cozmik on February 18, 2009, 06:27:27 AM
That seems the be the direction GM is going with Saab. They want to either find a buyer, or spin them off. Providing they can come to an agreement with the Swedish government, a spin off will come quickly. I'd say that Saab will quickly pull out of the US market in that case as well. Saab doesn't have enough volume to be profitable in the US without a North American manufacturing base, which is gone with GM. If Saab survives, it'll be a European only brand, is my hunch.
GM has tons of infrastructure and manufacturing capacity that they, most likely, will no longer need once all this goes through. I'm sure whatever company takes control of Saab (perhaps Saab AB will buy it back?) would be willing to lease some of that capacity for a U.S. presence.
I can say that Saab sells very well in specific areas. However, it sells horrifically bad everywhere else. New England, New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania, Florida and a few other scattered random areas are the only places where they do well. In NJ, they sell excellently. If the new owner could focus just on selling them where they are successful, introducing a few new models and expanding from there, they could be profitable.
Remember when nobody would touch an Audi with a 10-foot pole? Now they're challenging the likes of BMW and Mercedes as "the" European car to have. There's no reason Saab wouldn't be able to do the same with the right number of models, better styling and some good marketing.
Never, NEVER get rid of the key in the middle, though!
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 17, 2009, 08:35:01 PM
I remember the buzz around saturn in the early 90's. The unique(for GM) fuel efficient vehicles and the buying experience that made none car people into car people, it was a very attractive experience to the casual car buyer. I recall many stories of happy buyers and their experience with the dealers, the employees and the cars.
Then in the mid 90's GM stepped in and tried to "integrate" their "different kind of car company" into the herd. A short 10 years later saturn is on the block just moments away from having it's head fall into the basket.
Over the years i've realized that GM's biggest enemy is itself.
Among the claims that GM made for Saturn were that it would never sell a re-badged anything, that it would be entirely designed and built in the US, and you would never have to haggle for price at the dealership.
They threw away those "ideals" as quickly as they made them.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 12:16:24 AM
Do people picnic at Toyota factories and go to spa sessions with their Toyotas?
People did with their Saturns.
Did,
did.
Yeah, GM just was not in it for the long haul. I think the Saturn ideology was a good idea but disappeared as fast as the people who came up with it.
Saab has been dead for 15 years... the current 5 is older than many expansion teams, the 3 is on a dated last get malibu chasis and the 97X... well says it all...
RIP saab RIP
As for Hummer... merge it with Cadillac and maybe even dare I say Saab with Saab holding the entry luxury side.
Dump Pontiac and GMC and streamline Buick with Chevy...
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 07:43:49 PM
Saab has been dead for 15 years... the current 5 is older than many expansion teams, the 3 is on a dated last get malibu chasis and the 97X... well says it all...
RIP saab RIP
As for Hummer... merge it with Cadillac and maybe even dare I say Saab with Saab holding the entry luxury side.
Dump Pontiac and GMC and streamline Buick with Chevy...
I think you're onto something here.
Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.
I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.
don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.
The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year. Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors... Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2009, 07:49:02 PM
I think you're onto something here.
Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.
I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2009, 07:49:02 PM
I think you're onto something here.
Saab could become a legitimate fighter in the entry-lux category, it's just that GM has choked the shit out of it. If GM sells it, and another company (I don't know what company, exactly) buys it over, I think there's still some life left in it.
I don't know about Hummer. I don't think a Hummer-shaped Cadillac would fly. I agree with you dumping Pontiac and GMC, but I think Buick should be kept separate from Chevy.
GMC turns a profit, a nicely sized one too. Dropping GMC is actually a dumb move.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.
The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year. Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors... Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...
Interesting. Saabs have long been very popular in Connecticut, for whatever reason, and I'm used to seeing a lot of them on the road. They radically changed their look about 10 years ago, becoming a lot more mainstream, and they started selling really well around here. I test drove one in 2000 before I bought my first BMW -- a 9-5 -- and found its driveability inferior to the other options (Audi, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes). Probably not a fair comparison, but I did like the look of the Saab, and I still do.
For GM, what they're doing is probably too late. I remember when Saturn was launched, so it really wasn't around long, in the grand scheme of things. The guys are right in saying that Saturn never truly found its niche. I remember some of the annoying commercials where they were trying to appeal to women who were intimidated to negotiate car price with a salesman, and they emphasized how many saleswomen they had. I had that sort of approach, and it probably alienated some male purchasers.
This is sort of like doing major surgery on a patient that is totally sclerotic. Sort of like Gorbachev's perestroika. They waited until the patient was so sick to do the necessary surgery, that now the surgery itself will probably kill it.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 07:53:03 PM
don't make a hummer a caddy... just sell them in the same shop.
The Saabs are horrible. I worked at a Caddy/Saab dealer for six months last year. Saab has not made a competitive car in 20 years. I went to the 9X ride and drive.. .A SAAB event and came away enjoying all the competitors... Every magazine head to head in my memory, saab has finished dead last... The only life I see for it is filling the void of the CTS since it's grown in size...
They're cool cars, and they've got the styling down, which matters to a lot of the buyers. Cars like the TurboX are helping the brand. GM has choked it, but with some proper management, I think it can have an Infiniti-style comeback.
I learned stick in a 9-3 2.0T SS, and I enjoyed the car. But yeah, I agree, right now, they suck pretty hard (with the exception of the TurboX and the 9-3 XWD).
The Hummer image has been destroyed beyond repair, IMO. I think it's better off dead.
sorry... I beg to difffer. They look extremely dated.. lack ALL of the modern techonolgy of a Civic or Fit and most people think the styling screams 1998. As one of my salespeople put it, the saab 9/3, 9/5 doesn't even compete with the Accord, Camry and Altima when in comes to power, safety and features... and he was right.
The 9X is a perfect example. That should be the STANDARD 9/3. GM is bleeding money so why not invest in something other then a rebate. Price that car at $31,000 and you have a hit. Even with a crappy nav and a sloppy AWD system...
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2009, 08:39:25 PM
They're cool cars, and they've got the styling down, which matters to a lot of the buyers. Cars like the TurboX are helping the brand. GM has choked it, but with some proper management, I think it can have an Infiniti-style comeback.
I learned stick in a 9-3 2.0T SS, and I enjoyed the car. But yeah, I agree, right now, they suck pretty hard (with the exception of the TurboX and the 9-3 XWD).
The Hummer image has been destroyed beyond repair, IMO. I think it's better off dead.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 08:51:50 PM
sorry... I beg to difffer. They look extremely dated.. lack ALL of the modern techonolgy of a Civic or Fit and most people think the styling screams 1998. As one of my salespeople put it, the saab 9/3, 9/5 doesn't even compete with the Accord, Camry and Altima when in comes to power, safety and features... and he was right.
The 9X is a perfect example. That should be the STANDARD 9/3. GM is bleeding money so why not invest in something other then a rebate. Price that car at $31,000 and you have a hit. Even with a crappy nav and a sloppy AWD system...
I can't comment on the nav/AWD systems, as I know nothing about them, but I think they look okay. They looked better before all the swoopy, angular shit, but still.
The 9-5 looks like shit, though.
the 9/5 design is older then you are
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2009, 08:53:08 PM
I can't comment on the nav/AWD systems, as I know nothing about them, but I think they look okay. They looked better before all the swoopy, angular shit, but still.
The 9-5 looks like shit, though.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
the 9/5 design is older then you are
I was going to contest that, until I looked it up.
The GM2900 platform debuted in 1989.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
the 9/5 design is older then you are
Stupid argument.
So is the Ferrari Daytona.
Quote from: YO on February 18, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
the 9/5 design is older then you are
So is the NSX, but who's counting?
What they need to do to integrate Pontiac into Buick:
(http://image.automobilemag.com/f/future-cars/2008-buick-park-avenue-and-riviera-concept/6327206+w500+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-buick-park-avenue-for-china-front-corner.jpg)
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/RhvtkHMpBMI/AAAAAAAAH2s/BgtOhpgRJeU/s1600/Carscoop_Buick_ParkAvenue_a4.jpg)
Sell it with a stick and the LS3 and call it the Grand National for all I care. But GM could kill all of Hyundai's buzz with this car.
[/2o6]
I think all of GM's individual brand dealerships should be changed to "General Motors" dealerships. Pontiac could be slimmed down to 1 model - the G8. Buick could be slimmed down to the LaCrosse. Hummer slimmed down to just the H2. Saturn could keep the Aura. All operations should run out of the same GM offices and share the same resources. Over time the brands could grow once again.
...basically let each brand have a UNIQUE car and stop the wastefulness of rebadging every craptacular car 2 or 3 times....
Saab has apparently just filed for "protection" in Sweden, which apparently gives them 9 months to reorganize.
Saabs have always been very popular in the North East US. The 9-3 is the old car that is somewhat up to date though. And it needs to be replaced at this point. The AWD system is very advanced, and the 2.8t is a great and new engine, but the rest isn't there at this point. Except for safety, anyone who says they don't match the best in safety need to look at the tests, the 9-3 convertible still has the best crash tests on the market.
I still see a retreat from the US market, should Saab survive.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2009, 10:09:46 PM
What they need to do to integrate Pontiac into Buick:
(http://image.automobilemag.com/f/future-cars/2008-buick-park-avenue-and-riviera-concept/6327206+w500+cr1+re0+ar1/2008-buick-park-avenue-for-china-front-corner.jpg)
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/RhvtkHMpBMI/AAAAAAAAH2s/BgtOhpgRJeU/s1600/Carscoop_Buick_ParkAvenue_a4.jpg)
Sell it with a stick and the LS3 and call it the Grand National for all I care. But GM could kill all of Hyundai's buzz with this car.
[/2o6]
With a stick, I'd buy it.
Quote from: cozmik on February 19, 2009, 06:24:52 AM
Saab has apparently just filed for "protection" in Sweden, which apparently gives them 9 months to reorganize.
Saabs have always been very popular in the North East US. The 9-3 is the old car that is somewhat up to date though. And it needs to be replaced at this point. The AWD system is very advanced, and the 2.8t is a great and new engine, but the rest isn't there at this point. Except for safety, anyone who says they don't match the best in safety need to look at the tests, the 9-3 convertible still has the best crash tests on the market.
I still see a retreat from the US market, should Saab survive.
cozmik: CozDude, the Mustang is the
only convertible sold in the US with a 5-Star safety rating in all categories. The 9-3 convertible might be in second place, but it ain't first. If it's even second, it's likely a distant second...
Quote from: Nethead on February 23, 2009, 12:29:43 PM
cozmik: CozDude, the Mustang is the only convertible sold in the US with a 5-Star safety rating in all categories. The 9-3 convertible might be in second place, but it ain't first. If it's even second, it's likely a distant second...
Sorry, I didn't look at the NHSTA ratings, only IIHS, where the 9-3 is the best. period. sorry dude.
NHTSA hasn't tested the 9-3 convertible. When both cars were tested by the IIHS, the Saab fared much better than the Mustang, which is one of the few new cars available that didn't get the highest frontal crash test rating.
Personally, I think there can be a role for Pontiac, moreso than Buick (at least in the US).
It'll take a little creative model mix for it to work, but hopefully the past few model missteps can be forgotten.
First, ditch the G3. Swap the G5's motor for the 1.4DI turbo slated for the Cruze - or have Pontiac get first dibs on that model instead. Replace the G6 with the Insignia (Saturn doesn't need it now), and give it the AWD powertrain from Saab, and the LNF 2.0DI turbo.
Done right, and you could quickly redo the brand's performance image to slot between the G8 and Solstice.