Not classless as in "without class". I mean classless as in "cars that transend societal classes". I'm wondering what cars all of you think are cars that would see just about anyone from any of societies classes owning and driving.
- The original Mini.
- The original VW Beetle
- 1964-1971 Mustang
- 2005+ Mustang
I take it you read Peter Egan's column last month.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 27, 2009, 05:51:29 PM
Not classless as in "without class". I mean classless as in "cars that transend societal classes". I'm wondering what cars all of you think are cars that would see just about anyone from any of societies classes owning and driving.
Among new/recent cars, I'd say anything retro and inexpensive (PT in its heyday, Mini, New Beetle), the Prius, and Chrysler minivans. The Explorer and Grand Cherokee would have been up there maybe 5-8 years ago, too.
Anything that is distinctively styled: xB, Beetle, and the like.
Midsizers: especially the Camry and Accord, and for some strange reason, in my area the Sebring. To a lesser extent, 300's are included.
The BMW 3 Series.
MINI
Miata
Not even so sure about them since there is a class (maybe 2) that can't afford them new.
Another one I can think of is the BMW 1, but again, a couple classes may not be included
Edit - Mustang is a good one too
Quote from: 2o6 on May 27, 2009, 06:06:15 PM
I disagree.
Sure, it's an upscale car, but everyone has them. Everyone!
Swift
Quote from: the Teuton on May 27, 2009, 06:28:11 PM
Sure, it's an upscale car, but everyone has them. Everyone!
Maybe lower-middle class, but not below that, unless you're counting all ages of car.
Another I forgot to mention: newish full-size pickups.
Quote from: ifcar on May 27, 2009, 06:30:25 PM
Another I forgot to mention: newish full-size pickups.
Bam!
Corvette
300M
Full-size SUVs. Two people can have the same make and model car, but one will cost $35k or so and the other will cost somewhere close to $60k.
Prius, Mini, any VW, Cadillac, Miata, Corvette, most SUV's and high end pickups, Smart, Mustang Convertible, Sebring Convertible, Subaru Outback.
Quote from: the Teuton on May 27, 2009, 06:28:11 PM
Sure, it's an upscale car, but everyone has them. Everyone!
3 series is not upscale. The base model is no more classy than a Civic EX-L.
*EDIT* The Civic actually has real leather.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on May 27, 2009, 06:59:01 PM
3 series is not upscale. The base model is no more classy than a Civic EX-L.
*EDIT* The Civic actually has real leather.
However, the badge has prestige. Whenever anyone I know (including me) sees a BMW in any iteration we automatically think that the person has a fair amount of change.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 27, 2009, 07:06:10 PM
However, the badge has prestige. Whenever anyone I know (including me) sees a BMW in any iteration we automatically think that the person has a fair amount of change.
A new one, I agree with you. You don't see any in trailer parks, and lower middle class families tend to buy mainstream Toyotas, Hondas and Chevys.
Quote from: Payman on May 27, 2009, 06:55:22 PM
Prius, Mini, any VW, Cadillac, Miata, Corvette, most SUV's and high end pickups, Smart, Mustang Convertible, Sebring Convertible, Subaru Outback.
I agree with all except the Cadillac and the Corvette. Their prices are way out of most people's budgets.
Quote from: Payman on May 27, 2009, 07:09:06 PM
A new one, I agree with you. You don't see any in trailer parks, and lower middle class families tend to buy mainstream Toyotas, Hondas and Chevys.
It's funny. On the way home from the beach this weekend in a poor little town I saw a run down trailer with a new 3 parked out front. It was all blinged out.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 27, 2009, 07:06:10 PM
However, the badge has prestige. Whenever anyone I know (including me) sees a BMW in any iteration we automatically think that the person has a fair amount of change.
Not the 1-Series. I think something other than that when I see one.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 28, 2009, 12:53:58 AM
I agree with all except the Cadillac and the Corvette. Their prices are way out of most people's budgets.
Are we talking about all cars of the same age? Because you'll often see old Cadillacs and, even more commonly, Town Cars, in poorer neighborhoods.
Quote from: Onslaught on May 28, 2009, 04:31:52 AM
Not the 1-Series. I think something other than that when I see one.
I think "bitch". No idea why.
Definitely Ford F-150's of the decade past.
The "New" Beetle or old Beetle.
Audi A4 ( we'll go with 1998-1999 ) I see them everywhere , rich or poor neighborhoods right now.
Toyota Prius
Corvettes
Mustangs of many model years
I'm sure a minivan would work its way in here somewhere. Sienna or Odyssey when it comes to hitting the most social classes I guess. Locally anyway.
On the same token that Cadillac and BMW would qualify, I'd include Volvo as well
This is going back a bit, but the 1996 book The Millionaire Next Door showed that the most popular model with US millionaires was the Jeep Grand Cherokee.
My hunch is that the #1 model for the US's wealthy is now probably the F-150.
Rich people don't drive fancy cars, something many don't realize.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 28, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
Rich people don't drive fancy cars, something many don't realize.
Rich people who live in modest, middle class areas don't drive fancy cars. Rich people who live in rich areas (a.k.a. my high school district) do drive fancy cars. Sure, not all of them do, but you can't drive around my area for very long before you start agreeing with me.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 28, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
This is going back a bit, but the 1996 book The Millionaire Next Door showed that the most popular model with US millionaires was the Jeep Grand Cherokee.
And before that, the Cherokee. And before that, the Wagoneer.
That book also considers "rich" in a very 1980s way.
In Europe, it's the VW Golf. Here, I think it's the Mustang. As a car that represents America over the past 45 years, those who covet the Mustang will covet it regardless of finacial standing.
Trim packages separate the classes in the case of these classless cars. Everybody bought Explorers, but it was the upper class that opted for the Eddie Bauer trim. The Mustang has 59,092,419 special cosmetic packages to separate the wealthy from their dollars.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 27, 2009, 05:51:29 PM
Not classless as in "without class". I mean classless as in "cars that transend societal classes". I'm wondering what cars all of you think are cars that would see just about anyone from any of societies classes owning and driving.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 27, 2009, 05:52:35 PM
- The original Mini.
- The original VW Beetle
- 1964-1971 Mustang
Gonna have to agree with this list, based on the original premise. Restored or high end versions for the wealthy AND middle class, beater or low buck versions for the poorer or middle class, with a lot of crossover depending on financial status at the time. They can be everything from cheap toys to high buck collectors items, and can be liked/owned by any societal strata (unlike the Camry owned by the ultra wealthy that won't be owned by the moderately wealthy for the most part, and thus only appeals to a couple of the societal classes).
And of the three, I'd place the original Beetle at #1 for covering all societal classes.
Quote from: ChrisV on May 28, 2009, 11:30:47 AM
Gonna have to agree with this list, based on the original premise. Restored or high end versions for the wealthy AND middle class, beater or low buck versions for the poorer or middle class, with a lot of crossover depending on financial status at the time. They can be everything from cheap toys to high buck collectors items, and can be liked/owned by any societal strata (unlike the Camry owned by the ultra wealthy that won't be owned by the moderately wealthy for the most part, and thus only appeals to a couple of the societal classes).
And of the three, I'd place the original Beetle at #1 for covering all societal classes.
I'm surprised you would take the 2005+ Mustang off the list. I see them everywhere driven by people who shouldn't have bought it because they rent a shitty apartment up to people who make a million a year. My sister-in-law's new husband has a 2006 Mustang GT and he's a millionaire.
Quote from: Vinsanity on May 28, 2009, 08:59:47 AM
On the same token that Cadillac and BMW would qualify, I'd include Volvo as well
You're totally missing the point. Cars that are affordable to all or most societal classes. You have to wait 10 years before any of those are affordable for most people. This is supposed to be about cars that just about anyone can buy new that even the rich buy because they want it.
Quote from: Payman on May 28, 2009, 06:44:26 AM
I think "bitch". No idea why.
I think "couldn't buy a real BMW could you?" and also "fuck that thing is ugly."
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 28, 2009, 01:04:05 PM
I'm surprised you would take the 2005+ Mustang off the list. I see them everywhere driven by people who shouldn't have bought it because they rent a shitty apartment up to people who make a million a year. My sister-in-law's new husband has a 2006 Mustang GT and he's a millionaire.
I took it off the list because, even though some people may buy them who maybe can't afford them, they really don't exist in the low end demographic that the Beetle sits in, and they haven't been around long enough to be barn finds yet, like the early Mustang can still be found in.
When they start getting seen like this as drivers for a couple hundred bucks, then I'll put it on the list:
(http://www.calsurfer.com/Bug/1963-VW-Bug-Drivers-Front.jpg)
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/66_Stang_RH_Frt_Qtr.jpg)
(http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/10/68_Mustang_Rr_LH.jpg)
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 28, 2009, 12:53:58 AM
I agree with all except the Cadillac and the Corvette. Their prices are way out of most people's budgets.
The Vette is one car that I see all types with. And there's an Escalade on every corner!
I think the most 'classless' car today is the Prius because it's a relatively inexpensive car that many wealthy people drive for grandstanding purposes. Absent the fact that it's a hybrid, most of those people would never lower themselves to drive a lowly Toyota.
BimmerM3 -- I think you may be confusing the trappings of wealth with actual wealth. With the incredibly easy credit we've had, it's quite possible for people with a low net worth to be up to their neck in debt to have a fancy house and expensive cars. They appear wealthy but it doesn't mean they are.
Quote from: dazzleman on May 28, 2009, 05:36:32 PM
BimmerM3 -- I think you may be confusing the trappings of wealth with actual wealth. With the incredibly easy credit we've had, it's quite possible for people with a low net worth to be up to their neck in debt to have a fancy house and expensive cars. They appear wealthy but it doesn't mean they are.
And that's why I think most cars out there are "classless" cars.
Quote from: Raza on May 28, 2009, 09:38:50 AM
In Europe, it's the VW Golf.
I definitely agree for Germany. Everybody and their mom has one. The phenomenon I see is the less money the people have the higher trimlevel and engine they have in their Golf. Most affluent people that drive Golfs have the base TDI engine or the 1.6 Liter Petrol one, while the youth drives the (leased) TSI and GTI versions. Also the R32 is mainly driven by younger people...
Another car that is universal in Germany is the VW-Bus. From old hippies to young active people to families to grandparents that have a camper van, to business people, to hotel VIP shuttles, they are driven by all kinds of people.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 28, 2009, 09:34:42 AM
Rich people who live in modest, middle class areas don't drive fancy cars. Rich people who live in rich areas (a.k.a. my high school district) do drive fancy cars. Sure, not all of them do, but you can't drive around my area for very long before you start agreeing with me.
But who hasn't known rich people? I think if you had a view into their financial lives I think you'd be shocked at how many, though high income earners and big spenders, aren't rich.
In my neck of the woods, a lot of "old money" types can be seen cruising around in old Volvos. Immaculately maintained old Volvos, of course. Which is why a mere peasant such as myself can drive through the snootiest part of town and Biff and Muffy don't so much as bat an eyelid when I go past! Seems a bit of gleaming Swedish steel is the ultimate stealth car!
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Gates has at least one 959 still, as well as a nice collection of other toys. I'd classify him as rich... ;) Malcom Forbes had Lamborghinis. He probably counted, too. Ralph Lauren bought a McLaren to add to his collection of vintage Ferraris and teh like.
I'd say more than a few actually very wealthy people have flashy cars.
Quote from: Autobahn on May 28, 2009, 05:45:58 PM
I definitely agree for Germany. Everybody and their mom has one. The phenomenon I see is the less money the people have the higher trimlevel and engine they have in their Golf. Most affluent people that drive Golfs have the base TDI engine or the 1.6 Liter Petrol one, while the youth drives the (leased) TSI and GTI versions. Also the R32 is mainly driven by younger people...
Another car that is universal in Germany is the VW-Bus. From old hippies to young active people to families to grandparents that have a camper van, to business people, to hotel VIP shuttles, they are driven by all kinds of people.
It makes sense. The Golf line has enough models that there is something for everyone, and they're well built, strong handlers, and comfortable. They look upscale enough that you wouldn't bat an eye seeing one at a nice restaurant (although, here, my Jetta has raised a few eyebrows when I go to nice places; people aren't used to seeing a hotted up Jet at a $40 an entree place) but attainable enough that you also would feel comfortable driving it anywhere.
Quote from: ChrisV on May 28, 2009, 07:24:55 PM
Gates has at least one 959 still, as well as a nice collection of other toys. I'd classify him as rich... ;) Malcom Forbes had Lamborghinis. He probably counted, too. Ralph Lauren bought a McLaren to add to his collection of vintage Ferraris and teh like.
I'd say more than a few actually very wealthy people have flashy cars.
The book
The Millionaire Next Door implies that millionaires live like monks, wear Mickey Mouse watches, drive secondhand Camrys, and fish for scraps in the trash. Considering how much stuff Gates and Lauren and Forbes have, I'm convinced that they are, in fact, quite poor.
:lol:
Quote from: ChrisV on May 28, 2009, 07:24:55 PM
Gates has at least one 959 still, as well as a nice collection of other toys. I'd classify him as rich... ;) Malcom Forbes had Lamborghinis. He probably counted, too. Ralph Lauren bought a McLaren to add to his collection of vintage Ferraris and teh like.
I'd say more than a few actually very wealthy people have flashy cars.
There are only ~300 billionaires in the US.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 29, 2009, 07:58:21 AM
There are only ~300 billionaires in the US.
Blanket statement by you:
QuoteRich people don't drive fancy cars, something many don't realize
Shown to be false.
If you want to rephrase it to "many of the moderately wealthy don't drive fancy cars" then I will agree with you.
Logic dictates you've got to have at least a little bit of scratch to afford a Lambo, right? :huh:
Cheers,
Madman of the People
The first Mini by far. The Moke for the grassy types, the standard model for Mother tootling down to the shops, the Traveller and Van for commercial duties, the Cooper S 1275 for demolishing Sydney-Melbourne in three seconds and beating all and sundry at Bathurst, the Radford and Wood & Pickett models for the rich and famous, and so on. Arguably, the Mini was as trendy and fashionable a car in its day as an E-type Jaguar.
Also:
(http://images.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2008/05/16/FordGTHO2_m_m_m.jpg)
Originals for the wealthy, replicas for everyone else.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 28, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
This is going back a bit, but the 1996 book The Millionaire Next Door showed that the most popular model with US millionaires was the Jeep Grand Cherokee.
My hunch is that the #1 model for the US's wealthy is now probably the F-150.
Rich people don't drive fancy cars, something many don't realize.
I have deviated from my path of frugality over the last few months in that I bought each of my kids a nice car. However the "Millionaire Next Door" philosophy (that the typically wealthy person did not get that way by indulging in conspicuous spending) still applies.
Now, if only politicians would implement this philosophy at the national level.
A new one that seems to be evolving is the Tata Nano. Only 20% of them coming from the factory don't have air conditioning and other premium features.
Most are being sold for close to double the base price because of all of the optional features being installed in them.
If you have to be frugal in order to maintain your wealth, I'd say you're not really wealthy, just well off.
Wealthy is going down to the Ferrari dealership to buy race wheels for your F40 that you paid cash for, and realizing that it's a nice day, and you don't have a convertible, so you write out a check for the full amount of the F355 Spider sitting in the showroom and driving it home. Yeah, a guy in my sports car club did just that. And he's not an athlete or entertainer.
Quote from: ChrisV on May 29, 2009, 08:02:33 AM
Blanket statement by you:
Shown to be false.
If you want to rephrase it to "many of the moderately wealthy don't drive fancy cars" then I will agree with you.
Isn't it always implied that every rule and/or law has exceptions?
There are ~8,000,000 millionaire households in the US, with the median millionaire household net worth at ~$1.6MM.
Presuming the lifestyles of ~300 billionaires, the few thousand Fortune 500 execs, retired pro athletes and Hollywood elites represent American wealth is short sighted.
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 29, 2009, 11:33:51 AM
I have deviated from my path of frugality over the last few months in that I bought each of my kids a nice car. However the "Millionaire Next Door" philosophy (that the typically wealthy person did not get that way by indulging in conspicuous spending) still applies.
Now, if only politicians would implement this philosophy at the national level.
To me it sounds like you've earned it though.
Should those in DC personally suffer foreclosures, bankruptcies, trashed credit, et al., like the rest of us when we don't manage our finances properly, I think we'd see change in a day.
Quote from: the Teuton on May 29, 2009, 11:51:47 AM
A new one that seems to be evolving is the Tata Nano. Only 20% of them coming from the factory don't have air conditioning and other premium features.
Most are being sold for close to double the base price because of all of the optional features being installed in them.
I'm pulling an ifcar: Source?
Quote from: 2o6 on May 29, 2009, 02:52:52 PM
I'm pulling an ifcar: Source?
01100111 00100010
I'd consider the Scion XB and other small box cars to somewhat be classless cars, because they seem to be popular with moderately wealthy folks who buy them as small "errand cars" who feel it may be a waste to use their S-classes to make trips to the drug store. Also, that nice big plasma TV they just started selling at Best Buy probably wouldn't fit in an S-class, either.
In those ways, they are kind of like what the Explorer and Grand Cherokee were in the 90's.
Quote from: dazzleman on May 28, 2009, 05:34:21 PM
I think the most 'classless' car today is the Prius because it's a relatively inexpensive car that many wealthy people drive for grandstanding purposes. Absent the fact that it's a hybrid, most of those people would never lower themselves to drive a lowly Toyota.
That was my first thought as well.
Now that the Fiat 500 is coming the North America (see YES! YES! YES! in Mainstream), I will say the new 500 will be a Classless Car.
Yep, it will be the new trend in place of the Smart ForTwo and before that the Mini Cooper.