New Audi went for a pass after about a half mile of extreme tailgating which I gladly let him have as I that is no time to mess around. The road dead ended onto an old section of freeway (i.e., wide, multi-lane, and straight) after about another half mile. At this point he was in front at the stop sign, and being the red-blooded American that I am, I thought I'd give it a go as it was very early in the morning, as about a safe a road you can get for such things, there was no traffic in sight, and he was just being a punk.
We left at about the same time from the stop sign with him in front; I expected to at best keep him from gaining ground but to my mild surprise I pulled ~2 car lengths coming just about even with his front door by the time we hit extra legal speeds, and had to slow down for an intersection. He turned right, and slowed way down to put much effort into yelling profanities and gesturing wildly as I kept going straight. Meh - I'd be upset too had I just dropped ~$40k on a import sedan that was getting pulled by a previous generation plain-jane Accord with 100k miles that was worth at best $21k when new.
Honda 1, Audi 0.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 01:49:20 PM
New Audi went for a pass after about a half mile of extreme tailgating which I gladly let him have as I that is no time to mess around. The road dead ended onto an old section of freeway (i.e., wide, multi-lane, and straight) after about another half mile. At this point he was in front at the stop sign, and being the red-blooded American that I am, I thought I'd give it a go as it was very early in the morning, as about a safe a road you can get for such things, there was no traffic in sight, and he was just being a punk.
We left at about the same time from the stop sign with him in front; I expected to at best keep him from gaining ground but to my mild surprise I pulled ~2 car lengths coming just about even with his front door by the time we hit extra legal speeds, and had to slow down for an intersection. He turned right, and slowed way down to put much effort into yelling profanities and gesturing wildly as I kept going straight. Meh - I'd be upset too had I just dropped ~$40k on a import sedan that was getting pulled by a previous generation plain-jane Accord with 100k miles that was worth at best $21k when new.
Honda 1, Audi 0.
Not to rain on your parade, but a lot of that could have been due to poor driver skills on his part (especially if he was driving a stick) Of course, I don't know 0-60, 0-100, etc numbers off hand, so the Accord may well in fact be faster.
This sounds like a Trep story.
Either that, or Sub's right. Your Accord doesn't have anything on a new A4.
Per a bit of Googling, the A4 2.0T is indeed the slightly slower car; 0-60 in the mid/upper 6 sec range, which is indeed a touch slower than a sixth or seventh generation Accord V6. I always thought the 2.0T had like 260 hp but it's only 200 - 211 depending on the year. It's also the heavier car by about ~250 lbs.
He could have botched shifting but I saw no tell-tale sign of it (nose dive) and given the as-tested stats and weight/power ratio of each vehicle, it's about where things should have landed; the Accord slowly walking.
Do not misunderestimate the Accord.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 02:31:39 PM
This sounds like a Trep story.
Either that, or Sub's right. Your Accord doesn't have anything on a new A4.
Man, you're a troll.
Man! For the amount of money you pay for an Audi A4. 2.0T you'd expect it to beat a Honda Accord with a V6!!! Hell, a Prius is faster than an A4 2.0T!!! Plus what the fuck is a 4-cylinder doing in an Audi!? I thought Audi's were luxury cars (I mean they are sooo overpriced too!). For that amount of money I expect a V8 in that thing.
Hell, if I bought a big and heavy Mercedes GL320 CDI I expect it to be faster to 60 and the 1/4 mile than a V6 Accord or Camry!!!
German cars = FAIL :facepalm:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 05, 2009, 02:56:58 PM
Man! For the amount of money you pay for an Audi A4. 2.0T you'd expect it to beat a Honda Accord with a V6!!! Hell, a Prius is faster than an A4 2.0T!!! Plus what the fuck is a 4-cylinder doing in an Audi!? I thought Audi's were luxury cars (I mean they are sooo overpriced too!). For that amount of money I expect a V8 in that thing.
Hell, if I bought a big and heavy Mercedes GL320 CDI I expect it to be faster to 60 and the 1/4 mile than a V6 Accord or Camry!!!
German cars = FAIL :facepalm:
That's not his point, dude.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 05, 2009, 02:54:39 PM
Man, you're a troll.
HUGE troll. Oh man, one time I lived under a bridge. Gooooooood times.
Try it sometime! :rockon:
I am not really sure what the point of this thread is, yes the Accord V6 is faster than the Audi A4 2.0t, anyone who can read a spec sheet knows this. Of course the A4 is still the better car.
I don't know, the new 2.0T is a beast. It makes ~260 lbs/ft, which, I think, is more than the Accord V6 does. The Accord, IIRC, is good for like a 7 second 0-60 which is hardly slow. I seem to recall C&D getting a mid to low 6 second sprint out of their A4 2.0T.
An Accord V6 would probably outsprint a B7 A4 2.0T. Then again, the B7's good for about a 7-second flat 0-60.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 02:59:24 PM
That's not his point, dude.
I was trying to put myself into the mindset of a typical American luxury shopper. :evildude:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 05, 2009, 03:10:10 PM
I was trying to put myself into the mindset of a typical American luxury shopper. :evildude:
Wimmer, I don't mean to be a dick to you, but you don't think the average European shopper is any less, well, retarded?
Personally, if like you say, the average European is a badge whore and will buy a car with a "prestigious" badge for much more money with less equipment, etc., I think that makes them even worse than the average American consumer. Think about it, the American consumer wants a car that would give you more stuff for your dollar (not saying that's right, hell, my parents bought a 200 hp A4 2.0T when they could've bought a 300+ hp G35), regardless of the brand. Being a brand whore makes MUCH less sense than trying to get the most stuff for your money.
Oh, Jeez, not torque = power...
C&D (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/f8d7115145f49c637e0b5e0c226c783d.pdf) tested an '06 Accord EX V6 A/T 0-60 in 6.6 sec, 0-100 in 16.6 sec, and a 5-60 of 7.1 sec. (BTW, I've got the rare LX V6 which is a bit lighter than the EX.)
C&D (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/d0e7ad39452a148dfc54c1fdee60f558.pdf) tested an '09 A4 2.0 A/T Quattro 0-60 in 6.7 sec, 0-100 in 17.8 sec, and a 5-60 of 7.8 sec.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 03:34:32 PM
Oh, Jeez, not torque = power...
C&D (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/f8d7115145f49c637e0b5e0c226c783d.pdf) tested an '06 Accord EX V6 A/T 0-60 in 6.6 sec, 0-100 in 16.6 sec, and a 5-60 of 7.1 sec. (BTW, I've got the rare LX V6 which is a bit lighter than the EX.)
C&D (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/d0e7ad39452a148dfc54c1fdee60f558.pdf) tested an '09 A4 2.0 A/T Quattro 0-60 in 6.7 sec, 0-100 in 17.8 sec, and a 5-60 of 7.8 sec.
Huh, I thought it was quicker than that. I guess I was wrong.
Cougs, now that I see it, good thing you didn't buy the new Accord. That thing's uuuuuugggglllly.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 03:36:48 PM
Huh, I thought it was quicker than that. I guess I was wrong.
Cougs, now that I see it, good thing you didn't buy the new Accord. That thing's uuuuuugggglllly.
It's likely a bit quicker w/MT and no Quattro, however.
Had to have a new car in '05, so no option to wait for the '08; but yeah, I'm not in love with its styling by any means.
Seriously guys: Who gives a shit?
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 03:41:50 PM
It's likely a bit quicker w/MT and no Quattro, however.
Had to have a new car in '05, so no option to wait for the '08; but yeah, I'm not in love with its styling by any means.
Good thing, I hate the '08. The coupe is acceptable, but the sedan, oh god.
I couldn't ever fathom a FWD Audi. I know they're economical and whatnot, but for me, I'd need to have AWD in my Audi. It's the raison d'etre for Audi, IMO.
Quote from: Pommes-T on August 05, 2009, 03:42:21 PM
Seriously guys: Who gives a shit?
That's another valid point. :lol:
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 03:44:51 PM
That's another valid point. :lol:
Thank you! :ohyeah:
Quote from: Pommes-T on August 05, 2009, 03:42:21 PM
Seriously guys: Who gives a shit?
IMO it is the pinnacle of badge snobbery; a ~$40k "performance" sedan that isn't as quick as an older Japanese sedan half a step removed from an econo car that costs half as much and has a bunch of miles on it, and this guy was plenty upset about it (and probably why I'll refrain from such things in the future).
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 03:53:52 PM
IMO it is the pinnacle of badge snobbery; a ~$40k "performance" sedan that isn't as quick as an older Japanese sedan half a step removed from an econo car that costs half as much and has a bunch of miles on it?
Luckily, I can add some insight into this. My parents had a TL (which is basically your car with some extraneous fancy shit), and an A4 replaced it. The TL would spank the A4 in a straight line. The TL had a LOT of power. However, the A4's much more fun to drive and as my dad says, in twisty backroads, the A4 would show the TL its taillights in no time. The A4 may be slower, but it's better to drive. I think that matters a lot more than how fast it can go in a straight line.
I agree with Cougs, but I do have to most this before I can start an intelligent rant:
(http://www.cbseyemobile.com/files/cbs.troubby.21360.dd.jpg)
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 03:55:54 PM
Luckily, I can add some insight into this. My parents had a TL (which is basically your car with some extraneous fancy shit), and an A4 replaced it. The TL would spank the A4 in a straight line. The TL had a LOT of power. However, the A4's much more fun to drive and as my dad says, in twisty backroads, the A4 would show the TL its taillights in no time. The A4 may be slower, but it's better to drive. I think that matters a lot more than how fast it can go in a straight line.
Sure I agree, but for paying almost twice as much I think one should get a bit more scoot.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:03:51 PM
Sure I agree, but for paying almost twice as much I think one should get a bit more scoot.
Maybe.
I love the 2.0T's midrange, it might be a little coarse for the A4, but really, its midrange is phenomenal. I guess its off-the-line acceleration could be better.
so the highest level accord beats the base model A4 in a straightline... yippee frikkin skippy
Quote from: r0tor on August 05, 2009, 04:07:56 PM
so the highest level accord beats the base model A4 in a straightline... yippee frikkin skippy
Quote from: Pommes-T on August 05, 2009, 03:42:21 PM
Seriously guys: Who gives a shit?
Pommes beat you to it.
Quote from: r0tor on August 05, 2009, 04:07:56 PM
so the highest level accord beats the base model A4 in a straightline... yippee frikkin skippy
the accord v6 beats most things in a straight line, even swifts and rx-8's
Quote from: r0tor on August 05, 2009, 04:07:56 PM
so the highest level accord beats the base model A4 in a straightline... yippee frikkin skippy
I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.
The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/2a46ad92fe03c9417e5959117f9c65cc.pdf).
Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 02:53:49 PM
Do not misunderestimate the Accord.
:lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
That's why I love my car. When it first came out the WRX could only be compared to the Audi S4 and BMW 330xi, and it could show its taillights to the Audi if not the Beemer.
I "killed" an 09 Murano last week, and he even had the roll on me. More proof that my car makes a bit more than 224hp...
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.
The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/2a46ad92fe03c9417e5959117f9c65cc.pdf).
Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
Most A4s aren't anywhere near $47k.
And like I said, no offense, but it drives much better than your Accord. It's definitely a car befitting the higher price tag. $47k's pushing it, though.
Fact: Swift could beat a 2.oT
Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)
Look, I found something that can beat an Accord for only $9800
(http://images.craigslist.org/3kd3pe3l7ZZZZZZZZZ97v193e83f34b1a116e.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:34:46 PM
Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/roychase123/serious_cat.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.
The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/2a46ad92fe03c9417e5959117f9c65cc.pdf).
Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
you can buy a new 2.0T for low $30's.... and its a bit nicer then a stripped accord
Quote from: R-inge on August 05, 2009, 04:48:29 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/roychase123/serious_cat.jpg)
:rage: :rage: :rage:
My 2003 SVT Focus can spank a brand new Accord V6 Coupe on twisty mountain roads. That's the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
Eh, straight line performance is a cheap commodity nowadays.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
I have an LX (cloth interior, no sunroof, no nav, etc.) for which I paid $21k new off the lot in 2005.
The '09 A4 in that C&D test was $47k (http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/2a46ad92fe03c9417e5959117f9c65cc.pdf).
Again, the point being, a $47k "performance" sedan that can't keep up with a car half its price is the pinnacle of badge snobbery.
Perhaps some people don't care much about power? :huh:
Sure, Mr. Whomever-you-raced might have, but what about people like my 65 year old female neighbor?
Audi (and every brand for that matter) need's to have different trim levels at different price points. You cannot have a 300HP A4, then a 400 and 500 HP A4 when your upper models don't make much power. Yes, some of it has to to with wanting a better badge, but you have to realize, many people consider the A4 to be a better car regardless of power.
There are cars that cost literally multiples less than say, an S-class and can hit 60 just as quickly. Some people don't care. For others, like my dad, they can buy a TT V12, and trash nearly any production car on the market...and guess what, he rarely uses 1/5th of that cars potential.
Quote from: NACar on August 05, 2009, 04:40:52 PM
Look, I found something that can beat an Accord for only $9800
(http://images.craigslist.org/3kd3pe3l7ZZZZZZZZZ97v193e83f34b1a116e.jpg)
I'm not sure i'd want that tacky pile of dog vomit at any price...
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 03:13:43 PM
Wimmer, I don't mean to be a dick to you, but you don't think the average European shopper is any less, well, retarded?
As far as I know and have observed nobody here really cares if their C200 Kompressor or 320i is beaten to 60 mph by a VW Passat R36 or Hyundai Azera. It's not an issue here. A C200 Kompressor and 320i are premium cars from a premium brand while the Passat, even the R36 and the Azera are mainstream cars. That's how it works here. Sure, they might be cross-shopped but that's an exception, not the rule.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 05, 2009, 03:13:43 PMPersonally, if like you say, the average European is a badge whore and will buy a car with a "prestigious" badge for much more money with less equipment, etc., I think that makes them even worse than the average American consumer. Think about it, the American consumer wants a car that would give you more stuff for your dollar (not saying that's right, hell, my parents bought a 200 hp A4 2.0T when they could've bought a 300+ hp G35), regardless of the brand. Being a brand whore makes MUCH less sense than trying to get the most stuff for your money.
The term "badge whore" is taken way too far in that context. The simple fact of the matter is that brand prestige is important here. If you're going to be shedding out a lot of money for a luxury car it better have a name. How does one make a name for oneself? Easy. Look at the history of Mercedes or BMW. Those kinds of things create appeal and make the brand interesting. That's the reason why Lexus sales here are in the toilet (and also because they have not adapted to the European market). For these types of people value is rarely important.
I understand that a lot of Americans are value oriented but that seems a bit oxymoronish when you're talking about luxury cars, which are supposed to be an indulgence. I also find it weird how they keep complaining about how German cars are overpriced and such. Don't these people use their brains? It seems to me that Americans love to bitch about everything. Labor is expensive here as are raw materials. The cost of producing in Europe is expensive, especially in Germany and especially something as complex as a modern automobile. The Euro-Dollar relationship also affects the price. Add to that the prestige pricing that is standard at European luxury car firms and you have an expensive product. Simple. Even with the prestige pricing factor removed, the cars would still be expensive. The bottom line is that products from Europe are expensive. I'm sure it is the same thing when you buy sweets or chocolates from Europe in a supermarket in the US, right?
If someone wants value then by all means they should go buy a Kia or Lexus. Some people don't bother with value because they see something else in a product like a BMW, Audi or MB. Something far more appealing than what Lexus or Infiniti or Hyundai offer and for them whatever they see is worth the price.
Also, please tell me where the Honda Accord V6 is sold? North America. That's really it. It might be offered in Australia but that's insignificant at the moment. The point is that this vehicle was engineered for the US market. The Honda research department found out that the typical boring American family wants V6 power in their boring mainstream sedan because
Car and Driver or
Motor Trend tells them that performance is important so that they can safely merge unto a highway without driving to their deaths, right?
The Audi A4 2.0T is sold globally. It has to be optimized for various markets which includes emissions. Performance has to be optimized therefore. I'd say the A4 2.0T is a very good performer in its own right. If you want to spank a Honda Accord V6 with an Audi A4, guess what? There's an A4 with a V6 available too. It will cost more but hey, that's the price you pay for the Audi badge. I'm wondering why these two cars were even compared. A V6 Accord is faster than an A4. 2.0T in the straights - no secret there. Big deal. If someone who bought an A4 2.0T gets his ass raped by a V6 Accord or Camry then he should shut the fuck up because he probably could have afforded the A4 V6 or an S4/RS4. Seriously, some people. :facepalm:
I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such
Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs
underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. :facepalm:
FAIL
Well, duh. The Audi was a 2.0 4cyl whilst your Accord is a V6.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 06, 2009, 05:19:22 AM
I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. :facepalm:
FAIL
Do you not like Japanese cars? In all seriousness, how can these threads not exist? As long as there is the Audi A4 2.0 (and M-B C300), they will. (And should IMO.)
Quote from: R-inge on August 05, 2009, 04:48:29 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/roychase123/serious_cat.jpg)
Yeah, I guess so.
Quote from: Submariner on August 06, 2009, 04:22:04 AM
I'm not sure i'd want that tacky pile of dog vomit at any price...
Mopar or no car(truck).
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 06, 2009, 05:19:22 AM
As far as I know and have observed nobody here really cares if their C200 Kompressor or 320i is beaten to 60 mph by a VW Passat R36 or Hyundai Azera. It's not an issue here. A C200 Kompressor and 320i are premium cars from a premium brand while the Passat, even the R36 and the Azera are mainstream cars. That's how it works here. Sure, they might be cross-shopped but that's an exception, not the rule.
The term "badge whore" is taken way too far in that context. The simple fact of the matter is that brand prestige is important here. If you're going to be shedding out a lot of money for a luxury car it better have a name. How does one make a name for oneself? Easy. Look at the history of Mercedes or BMW. Those kinds of things create appeal and make the brand interesting. That's the reason why Lexus sales here are in the toilet (and also because they have not adapted to the European market). For these types of people value is rarely important.
I understand that a lot of Americans are value oriented but that seems a bit oxymoronish when you're talking about luxury cars, which are supposed to be an indulgence. I also find it weird how they keep complaining about how German cars are overpriced and such. Don't these people use their brains? It seems to me that Americans love to bitch about everything. Labor is expensive here as are raw materials. The cost of producing in Europe is expensive, especially in Germany and especially something as complex as a modern automobile. The Euro-Dollar relationship also affects the price. Add to that the prestige pricing that is standard at European luxury car firms and you have an expensive product. Simple. Even with the prestige pricing factor removed, the cars would still be expensive. The bottom line is that products from Europe are expensive. I'm sure it is the same thing when you buy sweets or chocolates from Europe in a supermarket in the US, right?
If someone wants value then by all means they should go buy a Kia or Lexus. Some people don't bother with value because they see something else in a product like a BMW, Audi or MB. Something far more appealing than what Lexus or Infiniti or Hyundai offer and for them whatever they see is worth the price.
Also, please tell me where the Honda Accord V6 is sold? North America. That's really it. It might be offered in Australia but that's insignificant at the moment. The point is that this vehicle was engineered for the US market. The Honda research department found out that the typical boring American family wants V6 power in their boring mainstream sedan because Car and Driver or Motor Trend tells them that performance is important so that they can safely merge unto a highway without driving to their deaths, right?
The Audi A4 2.0T is sold globally. It has to be optimized for various markets which includes emissions. Performance has to be optimized therefore. I'd say the A4 2.0T is a very good performer in its own right. If you want to spank a Honda Accord V6 with an Audi A4, guess what? There's an A4 with a V6 available too. It will cost more but hey, that's the price you pay for the Audi badge. I'm wondering why these two cars were even compared. A V6 Accord is faster than an A4. 2.0T in the straights - no secret there. Big deal. If someone who bought an A4 2.0T gets his ass raped by a V6 Accord or Camry then he should shut the fuck up because he probably could have afforded the A4 V6 or an S4/RS4. Seriously, some people. :facepalm:
I'm getting really tired of these types of threads. Seems to me the Internet is filled with such Japanese mainstream V6 sedan vs underpowered and overpriced Euro sedan with a 4-cylinder threads and the impression I get is that it is simply a bunch of silly kids comparing these cars thinking that every friggin person buys a car because of performance. :facepalm:
FAIL
I'm not replying to that whole thing, because I lack the patience. Secondly, it's much like arguing with a wall.
Prestige pricing. Wimmer, as far as I'm concerned, that just makes you a sucker. You're putting a name on an added price that's there for no reason other than the company can. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, hell, that's capitalism at work.
You're trying to tell me you, and the European population which you describe
aren't badge whores? Is that a joke?
I'd buy a 320i over an Accord any day of the week. Ditto an A4 1.8T. But the difference between me and the American public is that I care about how the car drives, whereas the American public generally wants a powerful, large, comfortable car. It seems that in Europe, they don't buy cars. Instead, they seem to buy badges (aka, they're huge badge whores). I think you're trying to say that the European mentality is better or whatever, but all I see are people who are suckers. People who are getting less for their dollar (and probably wouldn't appreciate the added dynamic benefit of the 3er, etc.), but because they have a fancy badge that implies prestige (no matter what you say, a C-Class is a C-Class. Not Stirling Moss' SLR, nor is it a Gullwing. It's a C-Class. No amount of history can change that), they'd pay more. Americans whine a lot? Maybe they're not used to getting shafted quite as much as Europeans do.
Disclaimer: This does NOT apply to an enthusiast. As I said earlier, I would take a 320i over any Accord/Camry, etc.
Honda Accord: FWD, 240HP, prob like 3400#
Audi: AWD? 210HP? 3600#?
Seems like a no brainer
Plus u won the race, but at the end of the day he gets to drive an Audi
Shit, there's a lot to digest here, but at least the vast majority is intelligent (even if there's a lot of disagreement (as opposed to Autospies, which I was just checking out).
First of all, for as long as I know, there have always been inexpensive cars from "non-luxury" makes which can be equipped to be faster than luxury makes. Big American cars with big engines were always faster than contemporary four or six cylinder Audis or Mercedes or whatever. People want different things in their cars, so companies give them choices. Difficult concept.
I think we all know that most people don't really give a shit about cars, and as long as the car is comfortable, reliable, decently made, looks okay, and has lots of shit in it, they're happy. Or, if the car just looks fantastic, that'll work too, and the rest of the stuff doesn't matter. MOST people just want a car that feels "peppy" - they are not power mad - which is why most volume cars, like the Accord, sell in four cylinder guise, NOT V6. The V6 is sold here because gas has been cheap for so long, but the take rate on these cars is very low. Perhaps more in recent years as the Camry and Accord have become larger and better equipped, but they are still usually sold in 4 cyl versions. So the "typical, boring American family" doesn't want a V6 if the 4 is sufficient. MOST Americans want value and don't care about the badge. I say "most" here. Yes, there are plenty for whom the badge is important. But Europeans are far bigger badge whores, hence the huge volume of lower end MB's, BMW's and Audis. Cars like the 3 Series have been crushing (in terms of sales) larger, better equipped, cheaper cars like Passats, Lagunas, Mondeos for a long time now.
Come to think of it, it's actually not a bad comparison, and one that plenty of people make when shopping - loaded Accord vs. base A4. Prices aren't far off, and people usually set a budget. They compare what they get, and make a choice. Obviously, more people go for the Accord, but plenty of people buy the Audi because they liked it better (and/or want the badge).
CW, you need to lighten up on the America-bashing! Maybe it's your perspective looking at America as a whole from Germany, and it's certainly possible I forget about the "real" America because I'm in New York, but I think you need to generalize less. People in America may say German cars are overpriced because a) they don't see the benefit in the (generally) superior dynamics, b) they get so much more "stuff" in their Japanese and American cars (which are really pretty interchangable these days), and c) they just don't care ENOUGH about the badge. But sure as shit, there's a reason why sales of "prestige" brands like BMW, Audi, Mercedes and - yes - Lexus (like it or not, through brilliant, case-study worthy marketing, it has become a prestige brand, at least here in the US) have been rising for years now (forget this year's sale implosion)....because enough people do care about the badge.
People are the SAME all over the fucking world. Europeans and some others just buy cars with smaller and/or diesels because fuel is so expensive. That's it...no other reason.
Oh, and for the record, I'd take the Audi over the Honda every time.
Hachee, where in NY are you?
I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 06, 2009, 04:16:11 PM
I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.
You probably are.
Westchester County. you?
Eh, sounds like a douchebag.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 06, 2009, 06:46:59 AM
Well, duh. The Audi was a 2.0 4cyl whilst your Accord is a V6.
In the A4, I'd put the blame on the automatic and AWD. I've put up with V6s in my Passat and my Jetta (1.8T and 2.0T) and haven't had a problem sticking with cars with 50+ more horsepower.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2009, 04:34:46 PM
Guys, don't take too much offense, I'm just sparring a bit. (Though I am semi serious, the A4 should run on an Accord at its price point.)
Life is more than a straight line, you know. The cost of a car is more than an engine. Now the only time an Audi driver should really be upset is when a Volkswagen with similar build quality, better handling, the same engine, and a much cheaper price tag does it to him. Because that's when it's evident you're paying for a badge. Fact is that you can't boil down an MSRP to a single statistic, and you know that.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 06, 2009, 04:16:11 PM
I think I'm the only one here who would take an Accord Sedan 6-6 from Coug's generation over the Audi.
Naw I am not an Audi fan (or fan of anything AWD)
That generation Accord Coupe looks more like a late 90s Taurus coupe. But it's competent.
Quote from: Hachee on August 06, 2009, 04:19:55 PM
Westchester County. you?
Nassau.
We're better than you. :evildude: :lol:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 04:53:51 PM
Naw I am not an Audi fan (or fan of anything AWD)
That generation Accord Coupe looks more like a late 90s Taurus coupe. But it's competent.
I've always liked the sedans more than the coupes, except maybe fore the latest generation.
I just can't say no to VTEC + a sweet 6 speed.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 04:55:05 PM
Nassau.
We're better than you. :evildude: :lol:
That's hilarious, because we all know that is not true. PM me for specifics!
Quote from: Hachee on August 06, 2009, 05:04:44 PM
That's hilarious, because we all know that is not true. PM me for specifics!
It's true!
That said, I think we could throw a bunch of guidos overboard. I'd be fine with that. :lol:
Neither of you can match Monroe County..... wait. :(
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 05:05:56 PM
It's true!
That said, I think we could throw a bunch of guidos overboard. I'd be fine with that. :lol:
Glad you said that, not me! Listen, I'm FROM there, so I know. Westchester people think they're better (and we are), and Long Island people don't give a shit. The only thing you have are the great beaches, I'll give you that.
Quote from: Hachee on August 06, 2009, 05:15:26 PM
Glad you said that, not me! Listen, I'm FROM there, so I know. Westchester people think they're better (and we are), and Long Island people don't give a shit. The only thing you have are the great beaches, I'll give you that.
Grew up here? Whereabouts?
Westchester's too "old" for me. As for the beaches, first thing that comes to anyone's mind is Jones Beach. Jones Beach is horrible, it's absolutely disgusting. There are MUCH, much, much better beaches in the area.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 02:35:55 PM
Honda Accord: FWD, 240HP, prob like 3400#
Audi: AWD? 210HP? 3600#?
Seems like a no brainer
Plus u won the race, but at the end of the day he gets to drive an Audi
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of
poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
You haven't driven an A4, have you? You'd be surprised.
My parents bought the A4 because it's low-key, unlike the C-Class/3er. They could most certainly afford more than a CamCord, however.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
??????????????????
Or maybe they're alternatives for people who prefer cars that look good and are enjoyable to drive?
You almost sound.... bitter. You bought your car for $21K. Do you know how much car you can get for that much money?
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 04:55:05 PM
Nassau.
We're better than you. :evildude: :lol:
I believe Westchester is a richer county than Nassau.
In any case, suck on some Allegheny County, biznatches!
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 05:38:51 PM
??????????????????
Or maybe they're alternatives for people who prefer cars that look good and are enjoyable to drive?
You almost sound.... bitter. You bought your car for $21K. Do you know how much car you can get for that much money?
I don't think he's bitter, considering he could probably afford a C/A4/3er.
He's definitely misinformed. His Accord may be quick, but it doesn't drive nearly as well as the A4. And I'm using the TL for comparison, I haven't driven the Accord.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 05:38:51 PM
??????????????????
Or maybe they're alternatives for people who prefer cars that look good and are enjoyable to drive?
You almost sound.... bitter. You bought your car for $21K. Do you know how much car you can get for that much money?
If I sound bitter, I don't intend to. If I wanted more car, it'd be sitting in the driveway.
As a few keep implying, I'm hot addressing now the A4 supposedly drives. I really don't care, nor do the vast majority of people who buy them. I'm sure however it does not have the ride and road noise issues typical of Honda.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 06:04:09 PM
If I sound bitter, I don't intend to. If I wanted more car, it'd be sitting in the driveway.
As a few keep implying, I'm hot addressing now the A4 supposedly drives. I really don't care, nor do the vast majority of people who buy them. I'm sure however it does not have the ride and road noise issues typical of Honda.
So the only merit of the A4 lies in the badge, which you immediately dismiss as being pretentious? That's just inane.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 06:08:40 PM
So the only merit of the A4 lies in the badge, which you immediately dismiss as being pretentious? That's just inane.
Wow, pretty good - though I'd say "primary" merit.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 06:25:08 PM
Wow, pretty good - though I'd say "primary" merit.
Keep in mind, I don't mean to insult you. However, the A4 really is good enough to offset a price difference between it and an Accord.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 06:04:09 PM
If I sound bitter, I don't intend to. If I wanted more car, it'd be sitting in the driveway.
As a few keep implying, I'm hot addressing now the A4 supposedly drives. I really don't care, nor do the vast majority of people who buy them. I'm sure however it does not have the ride and road noise issues typical of Honda.
The notion that everyone who buys an entry level German car for badge only is ridiculous.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 06:45:07 PM
The notion that everyone who buys an entry level German car for badge only is ridiculous.
+1
Yes there are people who buy them that can't really afford them, but there are also legions of people that buy Accords yet can't afford them.
Quote from: TBR on August 06, 2009, 07:01:51 PM
+1
Yes there are people who buy them that can't really afford them, but there are also legions of people that buy Accords yet can't afford them.
But do they buy an entry level German car for the driving experience? I'd think most do not.
Most people do buy for the badge only.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 06, 2009, 08:00:15 PM
But do they buy an entry level German car for the driving experience? I'd think most do not.
Most people do buy for the badge only.
And a lot of people buy Accords for the badge only too.
The kind of people that buy a car doesn't detract from the car, except in extreme cases (ie: BMW :devil:).
Quote from: thecarnut on August 06, 2009, 08:00:15 PM
But do they buy an entry level German car for the driving experience? I'd think most do not.
Most people do buy for the badge only.
But many do buy for the driving experience. Regardless of the motive for buying these cars, they do deliver on the 'driving experience' front.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 06, 2009, 08:00:15 PM
But do they buy an entry level German car for the driving experience? I'd think most do not.
Most people do buy for the badge only.
You guys are making quantum leaps here based on evidence that has yet to be proven as correct. Even if one has worked in a dealership, patterns of buyers could just be a local phenomenon. Not to mention most luxury cars are leased, making the monthly outlay not much more than it would be to outright buy an Accord.
At the end of the day, pretty much any enthusiast would be happy losing a race to an Accord and getting to cruise in a brand new A4.
What would you rather drive?
128i or a Camry V6?
C350 or a FWD Impala SS?
A4 2.0 or an Accord V6 auto w/no sunroof, no ABS and cloth seats????
Etc.
Cmon give me a break.
Fit and Finish, materials quality among many,many, other things are the reason why entry level luxury cars succeed.
It's like Filet Mignon compared to a large cut of skirt steak. Yeah, the skirt steak is really tasty, but the Filet Mignon is a quality piece of meat.
Can I just say that when Wimmer mentions 'Europeans' he doesn't speak for me. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what has been said, just that there's not really any such thing as a 'European' customer.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2009, 08:32:28 PM
You guys are making quantum leaps here based on evidence that has yet to be proven as correct. Even if one has worked in a dealership, patterns of buyers could just be a local phenomenon. Not to mention most luxury cars are leased, making the monthly outlay not much more than it would be to outright buy an Accord.
At the end of the day, pretty much any enthusiast would be happy losing a race to an Accord and getting to cruise in a brand new A4.
What would you rather drive?
128i or a Camry V6?
C350 or a FWD Impala SS?
A4 2.0 or an Accord V6 auto w/no sunroof, no ABS and cloth seats????
Etc.
Cmon give me a break.
Hey!
The 128i could most certainly hold a candle to the Camry V6 in a straight line!
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 10:40:44 AM
Hey!
The 128i could most certainly hold a candle to the Camry V6 in a straight line!
No.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 08:22:18 PM
But many do buy for the driving experience. Regardless of the motive for buying these cars, they do deliver on the 'driving experience' front.
Ok, at least around here, where I live, I see BMWs and Audis being driven around by Asian women. I'm going to assume that most of those Asian women are not car enthusiasts (actually probably none of them are). They just buy it because BMW and Audi = prestigious.
Just take my mom. She wants a BMW. I ask why. She says "It's a BMW!" This may not be the case for everyone obviously but I'm betting it is for most people.
Quote from: TBR on August 06, 2009, 08:03:11 PM
And a lot of people buy Accords for the badge only too.
The kind of people that buy a car doesn't detract from the car, except in extreme cases (ie: BMW :devil:).
I wouldn't say that people buy the Accord for the badge... there's nothing glamorous or cool about driving an Accord (unless it's the 6th gen Accord :devil: ). They buy it more for the perceived reliability.
Plus there aren't many cheaper alternatives for a car its size, anyways.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
OTOH, if you could buy a premium car like the Audi for not much more than an Accord, then why not go for it?
Quote from: thecarnut on August 07, 2009, 11:12:43 AM
No.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0710_2008_honda_accord_vs_2007_toyota_camry/index.html
Camry SE does 0-60 in 6.1 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.6@97.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q3/2008_bmw_128i-short_take_road_test/specs_page_3
128i does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.5@96.
Keep in mind, when I say "hold a candle," I don't necessarily mean the 1er is faster, but I do mean that the Camry doesn't really kick its ass like you think it does.
You're wrong.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 07, 2009, 11:14:24 AM
Ok, at least around here, where I live, I see BMWs and Audis being driven around by Asian women. I'm going to assume that most of those Asian women are not car enthusiasts (actually probably none of them are). They just buy it because BMW and Audi = prestigious.
Just take my mom. She wants a BMW. I ask why. She says "It's a BMW!" This may not be the case for everyone obviously but I'm betting it is for most people.
That's wonderful, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that regardless of the buyers who buy for the badge, the cars actually do deliver on the driving experience front.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 12:00:49 PM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0710_2008_honda_accord_vs_2007_toyota_camry/index.html
Camry SE does 0-60 in 6.1 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.6@97.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q3/2008_bmw_128i-short_take_road_test/specs_page_3
128i does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.5@96.
Keep in mind, when I say "hold a candle," I don't necessarily mean the 1er is faster, but I do mean that the Camry doesn't really kick its ass like you think it does.
You're wrong.
That's wonderful, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that regardless of the buyers who buy for the badge, the cars actually do deliver on the driving experience front.
OK, the 128i does it faster than I though (I thought it was low 6's) and the Camry does it in 5.8 sec FWIW.
And I'm not saying that the cars don't deliver on the driving experience, I'm saying that most people don't buy them for the driving experience, but for the badge. When did I say otherwise?
Quote from: thecarnut on August 07, 2009, 12:20:51 PM
OK, the 128i does it faster than I though (I thought it was low 6's) and the Camry does it in 5.8 sec FWIW.
And I'm not saying that the cars don't deliver on the driving experience, I'm saying that most people don't buy them for the driving experience, but for the badge. When did I say otherwise?
I guess we're both taking Coug's point two different ways. We're not directly arguing with each other.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 12:30:53 PM
I guess we're both taking Coug's point two different ways. We're not directly arguing with each other.
Yeah, I suppose.
One thing that I find odd: I think all 3 series are overpriced, but the M3 is an awesome deal. $54k for the E90 M3. :wub:
Quote from: thecarnut on August 07, 2009, 12:32:23 PM
Yeah, I suppose.
One thing that I find odd: I think all 3 series are overpriced, but the M3 is an awesome deal. $54k for the E90 M3. :wub:
A base 328i isn't a terrible deal, and I don't think the 335i is horrible either. Keep in mind, with options, yeah, they get way out of hand.
Good luck finding a stripper M3. If I were in the market for an M3, I'd order a base M3 with nothing other than heated seats.
I need zn Audu
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
My 3er will lag behind most new V6 powered cars in a straight line, and will show it's tail lights to most FWD V6 sedans in the twisties. I chose handling and ride quality over power. My TSX is the same. Put the two together, and I would have gone for a new 550i or a E500 or something like that and would probably show my taillights to all econo sedans. I did not choose to.
Entry level luxury cars like the A4, 3 series and C-Class have what it takes to earn their price of entry. For some, handling and interior comfort means a lot more than 0-60 sprints. Yes, there are badge snobs too, but your blanket statement ignores the discriminating buyers who really want more car. (I went over the what 'more' means already)
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Uh, and the means what exactly? The A4 (and C-class) are the pinnacle of poser badge snobbery; they're for people who really can't afford anything more than a CamCord, but are desperate to act like a high roller.
In some cases.
In my case, I bought a 3er because I've always liked the E46's. Love how they look and drive. No need for me to get a more expensive model, as they don't look or drive as well. Plus, I don't need the extra room.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 07, 2009, 11:15:49 AM
I wouldn't say that people buy the Accord for the badge... there's nothing glamorous or cool about driving an Accord (unless it's the 6th gen Accord :devil: ). They buy it more for the perceived reliability.
Plus there aren't many cheaper alternatives for a car its size, anyways.
Perceived reliability is a result of the badge.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 12:34:05 PM
A base 328i isn't a terrible deal, and I don't think the 335i is horrible either. Keep in mind, with options, yeah, they get way out of hand.
Good luck finding a stripper M3. If I were in the market for an M3, I'd order a base M3 with nothing other than heated seats.
I would order a base one with no options.
Quote from: red_shift on August 07, 2009, 12:58:11 PM
My 3er will lag behind most new V6 powered cars in a straight line, and will show it's tail lights to most FWD V6 sedans in the twisties. I chose handling and ride quality over power. My TSX is the same. Put the two together, and I would have gone for a new 550i or a E500 or something like that and would probably show my taillights to all econo sedans. I did not choose to.
You chose well my friend. I find having two cars is great, you are a lot less likely to get bored with driving. The TSX and 3 are great choices both.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 12:34:05 PM
Good luck finding a stripper M3. If I were in the market for an M3, I'd order a base M3 with nothing other than heated seats.
There are a few options that I think make sense, especially in the E90 (mind you, I had no choice as base spec for Mexico is quite loaded):
1. EDC: The adjustable suspension is really noticeable and very well executed. You can go from almost 5 series comfort to razor sharp with a button.
2. M Drive: The little M button gives you MDM stabilty control mode which is great for the track (others disagree). And the adjustability at the touch of a button means that you can be cruising, hit the button for that onramp you love and then back again to soft mode.
Other than that, I could live without other options that my car has, including: iDrive (I don't hate it but it's not necessary ---- maybe you need it for M Drive?), rear electric sunshade, PDC, enhanced sound, etc.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 07, 2009, 06:10:38 PM
There are a few options that I think make sense, especially in the E90 (mind you, I had no choice as base spec for Mexico is quite loaded):
1. EDC: The adjustable suspension is really noticeable and very well executed. You can go from almost 5 series comfort to razor sharp with a button.
2. M Drive: The little M button gives you MDM stabilty control mode which is great for the track (others disagree). And the adjustability at the touch of a button means that you can be cruising, hit the button for that onramp you love and then back again to soft mode.
Other than that, I could live without other options that my car has, including: iDrive (I don't hate it but it's not necessary ---- maybe you need it for M Drive?), rear electric sunshade, PDC, enhanced sound, etc.
I guess, maybe that would be worth it.
I'd just try to avoid iDrive.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 07, 2009, 06:11:49 PM
I guess, maybe that would be worth it.
I'd just try to avoid iDrive.
If I had to pick just one option it would be EDC. The M Drive is just safety for the track, but if you can drive and know your limits then DSC fully off is fine. Heated seats I guess make sense in your weather.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 07, 2009, 08:47:46 AM
Can I just say that when Wimmer mentions 'Europeans' he doesn't speak for me. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what has been said, just that there's not really any such thing as a 'European' customer.
And can I just say that when Mr. Water mentions his British countrymen, he also means me, given I'm just one of his lot with a longer criminal record?
Whoa Whoa Whoa. We are allowed to post kills/street racing on Carspin now? Then we need a kills/street racing section on Carspin ASAP.
Please no. We don't need that crowd here.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19501.msg1134124#msg1134124 date=1249792734
Please no. We don't need that crowd here.
Ed would end up, well, dead.
I totally killed a Mack truck today! It was suhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhweet. But then he was like vrooooooooooooooom and hooooooooooooooooooooooooooonk and I took the next exit to avoid a Maximum Overdrive flashback.
So the car with 30 more hp at the crank (and about 40 more at the wheels when you factor in AWD drivetrain loss) and carrying at least 150 fewer pounds turned out to be the quicker of the two?
In other news, water is wet.
Quote from: MX793 on August 08, 2009, 11:45:55 PM
So the car with 30 more hp at the crank (and about 40 more at the wheels when you factor in AWD drivetrain loss) and carrying at least 150 fewer pounds turned out to be the quicker of the two?
In other news, water is wet.
:lol: Sums up this thread pretty well.
I just read in the September C&D that the V6 has been canceled altogether for the A4.
No offense out there to those who made the choice, but the A4 is the pinnacle of poserism; even worse than a six-cylinder powered 5 series.
The A4 is fail.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:12:22 PM
I just read in the September C&D that the V6 has been canceled altogether for the A4.
No offense out there to those who made the choice, but the A4 is the pinnacle of poserism; even worse than a six-cylinder powered 5 series.
The A4 is fail.
:rolleyes:
The 2.0T as just as fast as the 3.2, that's why they canceled the 3.2.
Furthermore, as has been suggested numerous times over, there is more to a car than straight line speed.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:12:22 PM
I just read in the September C&D that the V6 has been canceled altogether for the A4.
No offense out there to those who made the choice, but the A4 is the pinnacle of poserism; even worse than a six-cylinder powered 5 series.
The A4 is fail.
You should also know that 6-cyl A4's have always been front-heavy pigs, that really couldn't out accelerate or out handle their turbo 4cyl counterparts.
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 12:15:19 PM
:rolleyes:
The 2.0T as just as fast as the 3.2, that's why they canceled the 3.2.
Furthermore, as has been suggested numerous times over, there is more to a car than straight line speed.
Uh, the implication was, Where is the V6 of the ~300 hp range just like the rest of its competitors?
As to the continual "there's more to a car" out-of-context claim? Few could/would dig on the ES350 for being slower than a previous generation Accord (it's not, but you get the point), but most should/could dig on the IS350 if it were slower.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:29:19 PM
Uh, the implication was, Where is the V6 of the ~300 hp range just like the rest of its competitors?
As to the continual "there's more to a car" out-of-context claim? Few would dig on the ES350 for being slower than a previous generation Accord (it's not, but you get the point), but many/most/all should dig on the IS350 if it were slower.
The S4 has ~350hp.
And, I wouldn't.
i should pull a ChrisV and show you a one-off tuner A4 that proves you wrong....
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 12:30:15 PM
The S4 has ~350hp.
And, I wouldn't.
True, but the S4 is not an A4; it also costs a bundle more than a G37, 335i, IS350, etc.
We really wouldn't hate on the IS350 for being slow.
We hate it for being cramped, not that great to drive, and lack of a manual transmission.
Also, what's wrong with being different from the competition? If when they all try to match each other, then all cars on the market end up being the same.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:34:24 PM
True, but the S4 is not an A4; it also costs a bundle more than a G37, 335i, IS350, etc.
Pricing isn't out, but I'd be a little surprised if it costs significantly more than the 335i.
Quote from: r0tor on August 10, 2009, 12:30:42 PM
i should pull a ChrisV and show you a one-off tuner A4 that proves you wrong....
And there aren't tuner Accords that are mega performers???
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:36:00 PM
And there aren't tuner Accords that are mega performers???
Compared to an Audi, no.
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 12:35:33 PM
Pricing isn't out, but I'd be a little surprised if it costs significantly more than the 335i.
The previous generation S4 started at ~$50k; the 335i starts at ~$40k...
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 06, 2009, 04:55:05 PM
Nassau.
We're better than you. :evildude: :lol:
Hmmm...questionable. Westchester has a lot of good places to live.
Cougs, this car is very different than the other competitors. Buyers of these cars aren't looking for outright power.
Quote from: Hachee on August 06, 2009, 05:15:26 PM
Glad you said that, not me! Listen, I'm FROM there, so I know. Westchester people think they're better (and we are), and Long Island people don't give a shit. The only thing you have are the great beaches, I'll give you that.
I'll just have to put my 2 cents in here. Fairfield County > Westchester County
Where the real money is :rastaman:
Oh and the A4 FTW
Cougs, what everyone is trying to say is that there is more to a car than just the speed. If you enjoy the car, and the luxury it provides, and the way it handles, looks, sounds, etc, then there is enough reason to get the car.
I could get a V6 Camry if I wanted to out accelerate cars costing thousands more with better badges. Will I have as much fun in the Camry? No way. Acceleration isn't a good indicator of how good a car is and how much it should cost.
Although Accord 6-6 sedan > Audi A4. :devil: :lol:
Quote from: 2o6 on August 10, 2009, 12:34:59 PM
We really wouldn't hate on the IS350 for being slow.
We hate it for being cramped, not that great to drive, and lack of a manual transmission.
Also, what's wrong with being different from the competition? If when they all try to match each other, then all cars on the market end up being the same.
Yeah, we would (and should) dig on it for being slower than an older Accord, if it indeed were.
Being slower and low on power is not the kind of "good" when it comes to differentiation in this segment.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 10, 2009, 12:36:46 PM
Compared to an Audi, no.
Uh, the point being that when you amp things up to the tuner market the comparison of the base vehicle in stock form becomes 100% irrelevant, as there is virtually no limit to how much more performance can be added after the fact.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:49:54 PM
Being slower and low on power is not the kind of "good" when it comes to differentiation in this segment.
I think in this aspect, Luxury car buyers are a lot less persnickety. Yeah a car may be slower, but if it's crap inside and out and really doesn't feel luxuriant then it's not a luxury car.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 12:40:46 PM
The previous generation S4 started at ~$50k; the 335i starts at ~$40k...
I think we will see the price of the S4 shift back to closer where it started since this car will clearly be a competitor for the 335i, not for the M3.
i saw some dealers unofficially say the new S4 is $45-55k
The new S4 is the TT V6 right?
Quote from: thecarnut on August 10, 2009, 01:08:12 PM
The new S4 is the TT V6 right?
I think supercharger.
Audi can't make up their minds, TT V6, NA V8, Supercharged V6.
I expect we'll see a V12 and a boosted to hell I4 eventually.
Quote from: 565 on August 10, 2009, 01:14:29 PM
I think supercharger.
Audi can't make up their minds, TT V6, NA V8, Supercharged V6.
I expect we'll see a V12 and a boosted to hell I4 eventually.
Oh, right. Yeah, they should just make up their minds, though the M3 has had different engines almost every time...
Turbo I4, 3.2L I6, now 4.0L V8.
Quote from: 565 on August 10, 2009, 01:14:29 PM
I think supercharger.
Audi can't make up their minds, TT V6, NA V8, Supercharged V6.
I expect we'll see a V12 and a boosted to hell I4 eventually.
Yeah, supercharger.
And, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the next S4 had a turbo I4.
Quote from: r0tor on August 10, 2009, 01:07:40 PM
i saw some dealers unofficially say the new S4 is $45-55k
Sounds about right. A 335i with the Premium Pack and M-sport Pack runs $48,350.
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 12:54:07 PM
I think we will see the price of the S4 shift back to closer where it started since this car will clearly be a competitor for the 335i, not for the M3.
Then why call it the "S"? Much like the other current S models, the S4 destined to remain quite a bit more expensive than the A4.
because they have an RS to tackle the M3??
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 01:42:37 PM
Then why call it the "S"? Much like the other current S models, the S4 destined to remain quite a bit more expensive than the A4.
To separate it from the 2.0T. It is quite apparent that at least in the case of the A4/A5 range, the RS model is the one that will compete with the M equivalent. Furthermore, even if it starts at $50k then it will likely be the same price as a similarly equipped, but less powerful 335i xDrive.
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 02:09:03 PM
To separate it from the 2.0T. It is quite apparent that at least in the case of the A4/A5 range, the RS model is the one that will compete with the M equivalent. Furthermore, even if it starts at $50k then it will likely be the same price as a similarly equipped, but less powerful 335i xDrive.
No. A similarly equipped S4 using the previously pricing schema would approach $60k...
Whether it should be perhaps is perhaps debatable, but it remains that the S4 was simply a much more expensive car than the 3 series (or A4) sans the M3.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 02:15:44 PM
No. A similarly equipped S4 using the previously pricing schema would approach $60k...
Whether it should be perhaps is perhaps debatable, but it remains that the S4 was simply a much more expensive car than the 3 series (or A4) sans the M3.
Wrong, the S4 has always come well-equipped, the options I put on the 335i are standard on the current S5 and we have reason to suspect that the S4 will carry the same features.
Exact numbers:
BMW 335i xDrive- $44100
Titanium Silver Metallic Paint- $550
Cold Weather Package-$600 (contents standard on the S5)
M Sport Package-$3250 (contents standard on the S5)
Premium Package-$2650 (contents standard on the S5)
Satellite Radio-$595 (standard on the S5)
Anti-theft Alarm-$400 (standard on the S5)
Destination-$825
Total-$52970
Audi S5- $51400
Ice Silver Metallic Paint- $475
Total-$51875
I am not sure if the Audi's MSRP includes Destination or not. Regardless, what is quite apparent is that the cars are almost identically priced, unless you're one of those cheapasses that would order a $40k+ car without basic options (I, by the way, fall into that category).
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 02:19:38 PM
Wrong, the S4 has always come well-equipped, the options I put on the 335i are standard on the current S5 and we have reason to suspect that the S4 will carry the same features.
The S5 base MSRP is $53k, and with options it too easily approaches $60k with options...
If the 2010 S4 follows in the footsteps of its S5 cousin, current S models, or its former self, it will be much more expensive that ANY 3 series sans the M3.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 02:39:11 PM
The S5 base MSRP is $53k, and with options it too easily approaches $60k with options...
If the 2010 S4 follows in the footsteps of its S5 cousin, current S models, or its former self, it will be much more expensive that ANY 3 series sans the M3.
See edit. You are clearly wrong.
Why is this thread still going? Whether you think it's smart or think it's right or wrong, people buy cars for badges. You may believe your accord is a better car than the A4 (i beg to differ but that's your opinion), but people who buy A4's are looking for the luxury badge and car. The Honda Accord does not fit that category.
Yeah yeah maybe your car's a better bang for your buck. But some people want to spend the money for the badge and other stuff that you don't get in a Honda.
Quote from: TBR on August 10, 2009, 02:41:35 PM
See edit. You are clearly wrong.
That mostly is all false or wrong - navi/audio + tech + handling is $9k in options putting the S5 at $60k without too much trying.
Argue your case however you choose, but you're up against history and the all-new S5; both which strongly suggest that the 2010 S4 will be much more expensive than any 3 series sans M3, as it always has been.
Case is closed until the S4 pricing debuts...
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2009, 02:56:31 PM
That mostly is all false or wrong - navi/audio + tech + handling is $9k in options putting the S5 at $60k without too much trying.
Argue your case however you choose, but your up against history and the all-new S5; both which strongly suggest that the 2010 S4 will be much more expensive than any 3 series sans M3, as it always has been.
Case is closed until the S4 pricing debuts...
Still wrong.
The $52,970 price for the BMW does not include navigation or the upmarket stereo option. Furthermore, the S5 comes standard with a sportier suspension than the A5 while the 335i comes with the same suspension as the 328i (hence the inclusion of the M-sport package). The suspension option for the S5 is a variable system, an equivalent of which can be found only on the 7-series and M-series BMWs.
A fully loaded S5 runs about $3 grand more than a fully loaded 335i xDrive, but it has more equipment.
An equivalently equipped 335i xDrive Coupe is more expensive than a S5, case closed.
:facepalm: What's with automakers charging extra for metallic paint? It seems the only colors I can get on a BMW without paying extra for paint are black, white and red.
If I can get a POS Kia with any color for free, why can't luxury makers do the same thing. Talk about nickel and diming.
Quote from: 565 on August 10, 2009, 03:49:21 PM
:facepalm: What's with automakers charging extra for metallic paint? It seems the only colors I can get on a BMW without paying extra for paint are black, white and red.
If I can get a POS Kia with any color for free, why can't luxury makers do the same thing. Talk about nickel and diming.
Simply because the typical BMW/MB/Audi buyer will pay for it.
Kia would charge as well save for its target demographic isn't likely to pony up.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 10, 2009, 01:22:22 PM
Oh, right. Yeah, they should just make up their minds, though the M3 has had different engines almost every time...
Turbo I4, 3.2L I6, now 4.0L V8.
The S14 (E30 M3) was N/A.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 10, 2009, 04:12:51 PM
The S14 (E30 M3) was N/A.
I stand corrected. :ohyeah:
Quote from: 565 on August 10, 2009, 03:49:21 PM
:facepalm: What's with automakers charging extra for metallic paint? It seems the only colors I can get on a BMW without paying extra for paint are black, white and red.
If I can get a POS Kia with any color for free, why can't luxury makers do the same thing. Talk about nickel and diming.
Same reason you could buy an underpowered luxury car. They want the badge, and the ability to fornicate themselves with the soft leather on the gear shift.
Quote from: R-inge on August 10, 2009, 04:45:53 PM
Same reason you could buy an underpowered luxury car. They want the badge, and the ability to fornicate themselves with the soft leather on the gear shift.
I stumbled across that on the innerbutts one night. I had nightmares. :cry:
Guys, let it go. Let Cougs have his moment of "I'm smarter than you, better than you, faster than you, and, damn it, people like me!" moment. We all get what's going on here, let's not pretend that logic can get us anywhere.
the 2.0T A4 quattro is actually on my shopping list for a daily driver.... nice exterior, nice interior, and awd traction -shrug-