A crash involving a stuck wide open throttle here in San Diego raises some questions about Japanese engineering. In the past, the Japanese have tried really hard to minimize stories like this one and the news media have mostly bashed Detroit products. I'm curious to see how far this story gets in the media.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/01/answers-elusive-fiery-car-crash/?uniontrib (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/01/answers-elusive-fiery-car-crash/?uniontrib)
So, um, the aritcle implies the CHP was a vehicle expert (safety inspections) yet sat idly by while the car accelerated to "more than" 100 mph?
It's just as the with the whole Audi 5000 myth of the same flavor back in the '80s: complete BS. There was no stuck throttle.
The only question regarding Japanese engineering is, Why are they so good at it?
Parts of that article are total BS. By simply standing on the brakes long enough the vehicle should eventually go into a limp-type mode, throw DTCs, and disable the electronic throttle body. At least, that's what I would bet on. Let's say it was the floor mats, that's not an engineering issue. It's an accessory design issue.
In any case, shouldn't the vehicle operator make sure the pedals are clear of obstructions anyway?
Of course, my condolences to the family of the deceased... that would be a terrifying final ride. :mask:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 01, 2009, 09:19:44 AM
So, um, the aritcle implies the CHP was a vehicle expert (safety inspections) yet sat idly by while the car accelerated to "more than" 100 mph?
It's just as the with the whole Audi 5000 myth of the same flavor back in the '80s: complete BS. There was no stuck throttle.
The only question regarding Japanese engineering is, Why are they so good at it?
There is nothing wrong with a simple key that has an accessory, start, run and off position.
The lexus has "another complication: A report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that some Lexus drivers with stuck accelerators tried to turn off the car with the engine control button but didn't know the button must be held for three seconds."
That's piss poor engineering.
And I thought all driver side floor mats had to have some kind of restraint to keep them from sliding forward.
Quote from: R-inge on September 01, 2009, 09:27:43 AM
Parts of that article are total BS. By simply standing on the brakes long enough the vehicle should eventually go into a limp-type mode, throw DTCs, and disable the electronic throttle body. At least, that's what I would bet on. Let's say it was the floor mats, that's not an engineering issue. It's an accessory design issue.
In any case, shouldn't the vehicle operator make sure the pedals are clear of obstructions anyway?
Of course, my condolences to the family of the deceased... that would be a terrifying final ride. :mask:
Yes, lots of BS.
The chances a "mechanical" failure that could have prevented the car from being shifted into neutral occurred at the same time the accelerator, a completely unrelated mechanical system, jams, is virtually impossible.
One plainly turn off a modern car without locking the steering wheel. Just turn the key to "acc."
What the heck would the driver have to be doing to get or let the floor mat jam the accelerator.
I'm not familiar with the paper, but this sounds like some sort of UAW propaganda piece.
Even if the throttle is stuck, the brakes will always overpower the engine and haul the vehicle to a stop.
This accident seems like it could have been easily avoidable.
Quote from: Byteme on September 01, 2009, 09:34:32 AM
There is nothing wrong with a simple key that has an accessory, start, run and off position.
The lexus has "another complication: A report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that some Lexus drivers with stuck accelerators tried to turn off the car with the engine control button but didn't know the button must be held for three seconds."
That's piss poor engineering.
And I thought all driver side floor mats had to have some kind of restraint to keep them from sliding forward.
I bet the carpeted mats have hooks to hold them in place, but the "winter" rubber mats may not have that feature.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 01, 2009, 10:06:58 AM
Even if the throttle is stuck, the brakes will always overpower the engine and haul the vehicle to a stop.
That and if the PCM detects that the throttle and brakes are applied at the same time it cuts throttle, usually, with these systems.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 01, 2009, 10:06:58 AM
Even if the throttle is stuck, the brakes will always overpower the engine and haul the vehicle to a stop.
Once a vehicle is moving, especially at highway speeds, there's no way the brakes will bring it to a stop against full throttle, especially a vehicle with moderate oomph like the 275 hp ES350.
The brakes will literally start smoking in short order, and at that time braking force will be mostly lost, with a fire to happen soon thereafter.
Ask me how I know. (Used to do it as kids.)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 01, 2009, 09:57:50 AM
I'm not familiar with the paper, but this sounds like some sort of UAW propaganda piece.
:rolleyes:
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: GoCougs on September 01, 2009, 09:57:50 AM
Yes, lots of BS.
The chances a "mechanical" failure that could have prevented the car from being shifted into neutral occurred at the same time the accelerator, a completely unrelated mechanical system, jams, is virtually impossible.
That's what comes off as dubious to me, too. They blame the floor mats for catching on the gas pedal, and then coincidentally the shifter stops working at the same time.
LOL cougs, this isn't a political issue. The San Diego UT as a matter of fact has a conservative bias. The guys wife had time to call 911 before the accident! Do you think in that time the CHP officer would have forgotten about "neutral"? The article says other people have had similar issues with Lexus vehicles:
" Marcelle Khalil of Del Mar, a pharmacist who drives a 2006 Lexus GS 300, said she had a problem with her accelerator two weeks ago. It stuck as she drove into her employer's parking lot and she narrowly missed a truck before slamming into a curb.
Khalil said she was positive she didn't step on the gas instead of the brake, but began to doubt herself until she read about the Saylors."
Quote from: shp4man on September 01, 2009, 10:48:27 AM
LOL cougs, this isn't a political issue.
Everything is a political issue to Cougs. He's one of those types who if he stubs his toe getting out of bed in the morning, he'll blame it on Obama/Democrats/Liberals!
Cheers,
Madman of the People
There was a kid bantering on about how Japanese cars are better than American ones in class today -- like any traditional Prius-driving liberal would say -- and what I wanted to tell him was the same as I tell anyone else: The Japanese are just better at controlling what gets out to the media better.
Quote from: shp4man on September 01, 2009, 10:48:27 AM
LOL cougs, this isn't a political issue. The San Diego UT as a matter of fact has a conservative bias. The guys wife had time to call 911 before the accident! Do you think in that time the CHP officer would have forgotten about "neutral"? The article says other people have had similar issues with Lexus vehicles:
" Marcelle Khalil of Del Mar, a pharmacist who drives a 2006 Lexus GS 300, said she had a problem with her accelerator two weeks ago. It stuck as she drove into her employer's parking lot and she narrowly missed a truck before slamming into a curb.
Khalil said she was positive she didn't step on the gas instead of the brake, but began to doubt herself until she read about the Saylors."[/b
Political? Um, it was you who stated that there was a media conspiracy for the Japanese automakers to hide their dirty laundry and for the MSM to cut on Detroit...
Sorry, it does sound like a propaganda piece, or if you prefer something more delicate, the most ridiculously naive automotive-based "article" I've seen in quite some time.
Like I said, I see the Audi 5000 issue all over again. Accelerators don't jam by themselves. (If it was indeed the floor mats, that is the driver's fault IMO.)
If there's follow-up information that is actually objective and makes sense, I'm all ears. Taking only the objective information from the article, I see either a knucklehead hot rodding down the freeway or a knuckledragger out to to do his family in.
Quote from: R-inge on September 01, 2009, 10:16:52 AM
I bet the carpeted mats have hooks to hold them in place, but the "winter" rubber mats may not have that feature.
Not all cars have mats that are locked into place. Both my Volkswagens do (including the Jetta-specific winter mats I purchased), but my Mercedes does not. I don't remember about the Porsche. I'm not sure about my dad's Lexus, but I think it is.
Although, my dad's an idiot, and put in generic rubber mats over the carpets, and no matter how many times I tell him that's dangerous, he doesn't remove them. I get that car-specific mats are expensive (mine were $140), but it's a small portion considering the cost of the car (75K or so for him) and the cost of, you know, fucking dying. I'm going to send him this link.
Quote from: Raza on September 01, 2009, 11:04:57 AM
Not all cars have mats that are locked into place. Both my Volkswagens do (including the Jetta-specific winter mats I purchased), but my Mercedes does not. I don't remember about the Porsche. I'm not sure about my dad's Lexus, but I think it is.
Although, my dad's an idiot, and put in generic rubber mats over the carpets, and no matter how many times I tell him that's dangerous, he doesn't remove them. I get that car-specific mats are expensive (mine were $140), but it's a small portion considering the cost of the car (75K or so for him) and the cost of, you know, fucking dying. I'm going to send him this link.
My grandmother put carpet trimmings over her Azera's factory floormats. She then lent her car to a friend who was able to persuade her as I could not that they were ridiculous, unnecessary, and unsafe. (The trick was to take the extra step of throwing them away.)
Quote from: ifcar on September 01, 2009, 11:07:04 AM
My grandmother put carpet trimmings over her Azera's factory floormats. She then lent her car to a friend who was able to persuade her as I could not that they were ridiculous, unnecessary, and unsafe. (The trick was to take the extra step of throwing them away.)
I'm parent enough to my parents; he's an adult, and eventually he's going to have to take care of himself. I can lead him to water, but I'm not going to shove his head under the surface.
Quote from: Byteme on September 01, 2009, 09:34:32 AM
The lexus has "another complication: A report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that some Lexus drivers with stuck accelerators tried to turn off the car with the engine control button but didn't know the button must be held for three seconds."
Three seconds? It's not like somebody will accidentally press the engine-start/stop button. Three seconds is a long time. I think if one presses the button the engine should stop (if it's running) and that's it. Three seconds? After three seconds it might be too late...
You vastly underestimate the stupidity of the average consumer, Chris.
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 12:54:52 PM
You vastly underestimate the stupidity of the average consumer, Chris.
Maybe. :lol:
The BMW 118i has an engine start/stop button and I can't for the love of Christ try to imagine how I might accidentally press it while driving. :hammerhead:
You wouldn't think someone would start a car while in gear, but people did and now we have clutch interlocks. And on automatic transmissions, brake pedal interlocks. And cups of coffee have "CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE HOT" on them, in case you forgot what coffee is like.
People are, in general, very, very stupid.
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 01:10:20 PM
And cups of coffee have "CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE HOT" on them, in case you forgot what coffee is like.
That's to satisfy lawyers, not consumers. "CAUTION: HOT" is the butt of jokes.
You don't think park interlocks on a car are satisfying lawyers? That's only reason we have them, dude. Drive a car from before the mid-'80s: not there.
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 01:54:17 PM
You don't think park interlocks on a car are satisfying lawyers? That's only reason we have them, dude. Drive a car from before the mid-'80s: not there.
They're definitely there to protect people from themselves. If it's actually something that does something (prevents you from starting your car in gear) as opposed to just saying something (caution: hot), it's less likely to be just lawyer talk.
Quasi-related quote:
Announcer: "Springfield has come down with a fever: football fever. If you have the fever, there's only one cure. Take 2 tickets, and see the game Sunday morning.
Public Service Announcer: Warning. Tickets should not be taken internally."
Homer Simpson: "See? Because of me, now they have a warning."
:rolleyes:
Non-splash lids.
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
:rolleyes:
Non-splash lids.
You didn't say lids. You said "caution:hot."
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
:rolleyes:
Non-splash lids.
Which have a function - unlike the "caution hot" signage.
Quote from: ifcar on September 01, 2009, 03:08:05 PM
You didn't say lids. You said "caution:hot."
Quote from: Lebowski on September 01, 2009, 03:11:01 PM
Which have a function - unlike the "caution hot" signage.
Thanks Captains Obvious.
Ask yourself why the coffee from Starbucks comes with non-splash lid.
The ones that are raised up over the lip and have the small opening? I really like those. No spills in the cupholder. I hate cleaning coffee out of my cupholder.
Not that I really drink coffee in the car anymore.
Sorry, if you had time to call 911, you had plenty of time to figure out at least one way of stopping the car.
As far as I know, there is no car that has any type of lock mechanism to prevent a shift from D to N.
The rev limiter would prevent the engine from blowing while you figured out how to shut it off anyway. Plus when you come to a stop the lower rev limiter would kick in and drop the revs to around 4000rpms as well.
What makes this more difficult to believe is that I can understand reluctance to do that in your own car, but this was a freakin loaner, who cares...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 01, 2009, 12:59:57 PM
Maybe. :lol:
The BMW 118i has an engine start/stop button and I can't for the love of Christ try to imagine how I might accidentally press it while driving. :hammerhead:
A friend has a Toyota ( I think) that has a push-to-start button located on the right side of the steering column. At that position, it isn't that difficult for someone in the passenger seat to reach over and push the button...say a child. When I worked for a Honda dealer, we towed in an Accord that had been shoved into park at over 60mph. It was an irate child, pissed because he couldn't have ice cream. The transmission exploded and the car started doing 360's down the 680.
Three seconds is probably to make it child proof. You wouldn't believe the number of vehicles that came in for warranty radio repairs that turned out to have pennies and dimes in them from kids feeding coins into the CD player slot. A lot of seat belt problems also result from coin insertion.
Quote from: JWC on September 01, 2009, 06:33:41 PM
A friend has a Toyota ( I think) that has a push-to-start button located on the right side of the steering column. At that position, it isn't that difficult for someone in the passenger seat to reach over and push the button...say a child. When I worked for a Honda dealer, we towed in an Accord that had been shoved into park at over 60mph. It was an irate child, pissed because he couldn't have ice cream. The transmission exploded and the car started doing 360's down the 680.
Three seconds is probably to make it child proof. You wouldn't believe the number of vehicles that came in for warranty radio repairs that turned out to have pennies and dimes in them from kids feeding coins into the CD player slot. A lot of seat belt problems also result from coin insertion.
Sounds like instead of more interlocks, we need better parenting. Oh wait, that requires personal responsibility. Sorry to go off-topic. :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 01, 2009, 12:59:57 PM
Maybe. :lol:
The BMW 118i has an engine start/stop button and I can't for the love of Christ try to imagine how I might accidentally press it while driving. :hammerhead:
I thought BMW's were the same way. Go try it, I'd be surprised if it shuts down with a single press of the button while moving at high speed. Lexus's press and hold thing is pretty standard issue I believe.
He evidently:
could not put it into neutral.
could not use the brakes.
could not shut off the engine.
Wow.
We also learn:
"... when the throttle pedal is fully open unintentionally, some drivers react by hitting the brakes multiple times. This action depletes the vehicle's vacuum-based power assist, and without that assistance, the brakes must be applied with much more force. Continued driving in that manner can result in overheating the brakes, further diminishing their effectiveness."
So you lose servo vacuum when the engine is racing. We are duly warned.
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 01:10:20 PM
You wouldn't think someone would start a car while in gear, but people did and now we have clutch interlocks. And on automatic transmissions, brake pedal interlocks. And cups of coffee have "CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE HOT" on them, in case you forgot what coffee is like.
People are, in general, very, very stupid.
ZOMG HOT COFFEE SCALDED MY FAT ASS I NEED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO QUENCH THE PAIN LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Quote from: JWC on September 01, 2009, 06:33:41 PM
A friend has a Toyota ( I think) that has a push-to-start button located on the right side of the steering column. At that position, it isn't that difficult for someone in the passenger seat to reach over and push the button...say a child. When I worked for a Honda dealer, we towed in an Accord that had been shoved into park at over 60mph. It was an irate child, pissed because he couldn't have ice cream. The transmission exploded and the car started doing 360's down the 680.
Three seconds is probably to make it child proof. You wouldn't believe the number of vehicles that came in for warranty radio repairs that turned out to have pennies and dimes in them from kids feeding coins into the CD player slot. A lot of seat belt problems also result from coin insertion.
Damn...i'd beat the hell out of that little bastard.
Quote from: Speed_Racer on September 01, 2009, 07:06:05 PM
Sounds like instead of more interlocks, we need better parenting. Oh wait, that requires personal responsibility. Sorry to go off-topic. :lol:
Sounds more like we need fewer children.
I'll get my shovel.
Quote from: JWC on September 01, 2009, 06:33:41 PM
A friend has a Toyota ( I think) that has a push-to-start button located on the right side of the steering column. At that position, it isn't that difficult for someone in the passenger seat to reach over and push the button...say a child. When I worked for a Honda dealer, we towed in an Accord that had been shoved into park at over 60mph. It was an irate child, pissed because he couldn't have ice cream. The transmission exploded and the car started doing 360's down the 680.
Yep, definitely a Honda. :thumbsup: :devil:
Quote from: JWC on September 01, 2009, 06:33:41 PMThree seconds is probably to make it child proof. You wouldn't believe the number of vehicles that came in for warranty radio repairs that turned out to have pennies and dimes in them from kids feeding coins into the CD player slot. A lot of seat belt problems also result from coin insertion.
True. Good point. I had completely forgotten about the child safety aspect. It does make sense though.
On the other hand, in a near accident situation 3 seconds is a lot of time...
this is one odd story... sadly, i believe the officers aumotive intelligence probably rates up there with the officer who ticketed my friends audi for a blown tailight despite all attempts to show him both tailights were working and the difference between the two was the rear fog light.
To those of us who work on automotive electronic systems, it's common knowledge that the Japanese aren't exactly cutting edge in the latest electronic systems. Like electronic throttle bodies for example.
Quote from: shp4man on September 02, 2009, 12:32:53 PM
To those of us who work on automotive electronic systems, it's common knowledge that the Japanese aren't exactly cutting edge in the latest electronic systems. Like electronic throttle bodies for example.
So this means Japanese throttle bodies are are prone to jam open and for nanny systems (i.e., brake use with throttle open = engine cut-off) to fail simultaneously?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 02, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
So this means Japanese throttle bodies are are prone to jam open and for nanny systems (i.e., brake use with throttle open = engine cut-off) to fail simultaneously?
I don't know what happened. But this particular car did have a problem with the throttle. It also burst into flame after it came to a stop. It may have been some kind of PCM software issue, I don't know.
Neutral + brakes?
Quote from: r0tor on September 02, 2009, 10:02:11 AM
this is one odd story... sadly, i believe the officers aumotive intelligence probably rates up there with the officer who ticketed my friends audi for a blown tailight despite all attempts to show him both tailights were working and the difference between the two was the rear fog light.
I hope your friend contested the ticket.
Quote from: shp4man on September 02, 2009, 01:45:44 PM
I don't know what happened. But this particular car did have a problem with the throttle. It also burst into flame after it came to a stop. It may have been some kind of PCM software issue, I don't know.
Sorry - with article as written I don't buy the stuck throttle or multi-mechanical failure conclusion at all.
I'm all ears if/when there is objective data available.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 02, 2009, 03:15:50 PM
I hope your friend contested the ticket.
he's getting a DUI out of it (.09 BAC vs vs limit of .08) :facepalm:
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on September 02, 2009, 03:14:42 PM
Neutral + brakes?
You woulda thunk... but we learn from the article that...
"The [NHTSA] researchers also said that when the throttle pedal is fully open unintentionally, some drivers react by hitting the brakes multiple times. This action depletes the vehicle's vacuum-based power assist..."
It seems that brake servos stop working at wide open throttle.
i bed in my brake pads by applying the gas and break at the same time... the brakes always work
I'd say the article was written by exceptionally-lazy people of low intelligence - American journalists in other words.
Quote from: r0tor on September 03, 2009, 07:29:38 AM
i bed in my brake pads by applying the gas and break at the same time... the brakes always work
The article points out that at WOT there is next to no manifold vacuum to restore the vacuum in the brake booster. It would be like stepping on the brakes with the engine off. You'd get like 2 pumps and then no more assist.
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on September 03, 2009, 02:02:39 PM
The article points out that at WOT there is next to no manifold vacuum to restore the vacuum in the brake booster. It would be like stepping on the brakes with the engine off. You'd get like 2 pumps and then no more assist.
have you ever tried auto-xing using leftfoot braking - its not uncommon to be jumping on the brakes while your foots still on the gas...
Also commonly in racing before a turn on a long straight, the driver will pump the brake a few times before the braking zone to test the brakes and get the pads out close to the rotors...
Quote from: 93JC on September 01, 2009, 01:10:20 PM
You wouldn't think someone would start a car while in gear, but people did and now we have clutch interlocks. And on automatic transmissions, brake pedal interlocks. And cups of coffee have "CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE HOT" on them, in case you forgot what coffee is like.
People are, in general, very, very stupid.
Don't forget
DANGER DON'T OPEN THE SODA BOTTLE WHILE POINTING THE CAP AT YOUR EYES warnings.
Orly?
Haven't seen that. My little bottle of Coke Zero doesn't have any warnings on it.
Quote from: r0tor on September 03, 2009, 04:43:06 PM
have you ever tried auto-xing using leftfoot braking - its not uncommon to be jumping on the brakes while your foots still on the gas...
Also commonly in racing before a turn on a long straight, the driver will pump the brake a few times before the braking zone to test the brakes and get the pads out close to the rotors...
I get all that, but if the throttle butterfly doesn't close at all there is simply no new vacuum generated.
even at WOT there is vacuum (unless your FI). air would never be sucked through the intake if there was no pressure difference...
Quote from: r0tor on September 03, 2009, 04:43:06 PM
have you ever tried auto-xing using leftfoot braking - its not uncommon to be jumping on the brakes while your foots still on the gas...
Also commonly in racing before a turn on a long straight, the driver will pump the brake a few times before the braking zone to test the brakes and get the pads out close to the rotors...
I get all that, but if the throttle butterfly doesn't close at all there is simply no new vacuum generated.
Quote from: r0tor on September 04, 2009, 11:02:02 AM
even at WOT there is vacuum (unless your FI). air would never be sucked through the intake if there was no pressure difference...
But the pressure difference is within the cylinders, not within the intake manifold.
I guess the real question is, is there still enough of a pressure difference in the intake manifold at WOT for air to be pulled from the brake booster vs the open throttle body?
Quote from: r0tor on September 04, 2009, 11:02:02 AM
even at WOT there is vacuum (unless your FI). air would never be sucked through the intake if there was no pressure difference...
At WOT manifold vacuum is at its lowest, though.
EDIT: Beaten to the punch.
Quote from: 93JC on September 04, 2009, 11:28:34 AM
At WOT manifold vacuum is at its lowest, though.
EDIT: Beaten to the punch.
however, if you pop a vaccuum hose off it will futz everything up and you will hear the air leak....
Yes, but the way the vacuum booster works in a power braking system is using the difference between manifold vacuum and atmospheric pressure to apply more force to the master cylinder. At WOT manifold vacuum approaches atmospheric, thus the pressure difference in the vacuum booster is small and you don't get much of an assist.
Manifold vacuum at idle is usually around 20 inHg, and at WOT it's maybe 1. You don't think braking ability would be severely reduced?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 01, 2009, 12:51:28 PM
Three seconds? It's not like somebody will accidentally press the engine-start/stop button. Three seconds is a long time. I think if one presses the button the engine should stop (if it's running) and that's it. Three seconds? After three seconds it might be too late...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 01, 2009, 12:59:57 PM
Maybe. :lol:
The BMW 118i has an engine start/stop button and I can't for the love of Christ try to imagine how I might accidentally press it while driving. :hammerhead:
Yeah, it doesn't even necessarily have to be you that presses it. Other people in the car might sit there and go "I wonder what would happen if I press that button while we're moving?" Ask me how I know...
My BMW is the same, if you just press the button while moving, it won't turn off the engine. Haven't tried holding it, someone got punched before they could try...
Quote from: 93JC on September 04, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
Manifold vacuum at idle is usually around 20 inHg, and at WOT it's maybe 1. You don't think braking ability would be severely reduced?
a) its more then that
b) the brakes will work even with no vacuum assist... just have to stomp down harder
Quote from: GoCougs on September 01, 2009, 10:19:04 AM
Once a vehicle is moving, especially at highway speeds, there's no way the brakes will bring it to a stop against full throttle, especially a vehicle with moderate oomph like the 275 hp ES350.
The brakes will literally start smoking in short order, and at that time braking force will be mostly lost, with a fire to happen soon thereafter.
Ask me how I know. (Used to do it as kids.)
You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs? I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car. My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.
Quote from: MX793 on September 04, 2009, 06:07:19 PM
You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs? I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car. My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.
My time-spent-as-a-knucklehead experience tells me something a bit different. And drums vs. discs I don't think matters too much; at speed and at max power there's a lot of juice that has to be dissipated, and though discs are inherently better, they'd still be overwhelmed.
If the Viper is putting all max hp to the street I don't believe for a second that the brakes would stop it. But then I have to ask, Why didn't your dad's friend simply shift into neutral or turn off the engine, or how could the engine not bog and stall as the car slowed?
Quote from: MX793 on September 04, 2009, 06:07:19 PM
You smoked the brakes on a vehicle with 4 wheel discs? I could definately see drums going up in smoke in no time, but 4 wheel discs you should have enough brakes to stop the car. My dad knew a guy with a Dodge Viper who was saying that one day his throttle stuck and he stood on the brakes and brought things to a hault against 500 hp.
Ummm... the first thing I would do is press the clutch in and cut the engine, unless I was screwing around and just wanted to test how good the brakes were. :nutty:
A stuck wide-open throttled happened to me twice that time I test-drove an SHO. The first time in 1st gear was a bit crazy, and second time I popped it into a higher gear to restart the engine after I thought I had pried the pedal up from the floor with my foot, but that didn't work so I cut the engine again and pulled over. Both times, the first thing I did was press the clutch and turn the engine off. It's not even something that I had to think about doing. Trying to brake against full throttle in 1st gear was not something that ever crossed my mind.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 04, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
My time-spent-as-a-knucklehead experience tells me something a bit different. And drums vs. discs I don't think matters too much; at speed and at max power there's a lot of juice that has to be dissipated, and though discs are inherently better, they'd still be overwhelmed.
If the Viper is putting all max hp to the street I don't believe for a second that the brakes would stop it. But then I have to ask, Why didn't your dad's friend simply shift into neutral or turn off the engine, or how could the engine not bog and stall as the car slowed?
Drums vs discs makes a huge difference. Drums suffer from brake fade and will burn up very quickly. While a drum can put out plenty enough stopping force to overwhelm the tires and skid them, they don't hold up very well to sustained braking (e.g. dragging the brakes). When it comes to braking power, they give up pretty quickly. It's why any sort of long hill results in a semi truck cooking its brakes in no time unless the driver takes due care and uses engine braking (and the Jake) to keep speeds in check.
IIRC, the brakes on a Porsche 911 Turbo can generate (or dissipate, as it were) well over 1000 hp in stopping power.
And the Viper story I heard many years ago. I don't recall every detail. It's very likely he did push in the clutch and kill the motor, as I recall that the guy needed a new set of tires because the ordeal destroyed his (probably because they flatspotted). I do recall that what caused the throttle to stick was that the engine twisted so hard in the engine bay when he floored it that it jammed the throttle linkage (I think a motor mount broke).
The recall also covers:
? 2007 ? 2010 ES350
? 2006 ? 2010 IS250 and IS350
Toyota Consumer Safety Advisory Potential Floor Mat Interference with Accelerator Pedal
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx
Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc. takes public safety very seriously. It believes its vehicles to be among the safest on the road today.
Recent events have prompted Toyota to take a closer look at the potential for an accelerator pedal to get stuck in the full open position due to an unsecured or incompatible driver's floor mat. A stuck open accelerator pedal may result in very high vehicle speeds and make it difficult to stop the vehicle, which could cause a crash, serious injury or death.
Toyota considers this a critical matter and will soon launch a safety campaign on specific Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Throughout the process of developing the details of the action plan, it will advise the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
Until Toyota develops a remedy, it is asking owners of specific Toyota and Lexus models to take out any removable driver?s floor mat and NOT replace it with any other floor mat. The following models are affected:
? 2007 ? 2010 Camry
? 2005 ? 2010 Avalon
? 2004 ? 2009 Prius
? 2005 ? 2010 Tacoma
? 2007 ? 2010 Tundra
Should the vehicle continue to accelerate rapidly after releasing the accelerator pedal, this could be an indication of floor mat interference. If this occurs, Toyota recommends the driver take the following actions:
First, if it is possible and safe to do so, pull back the floor mat and dislodge it from the accelerator pedal; then pull over and stop the vehicle.
If the floor mat cannot be dislodged, then firmly and steadily step on the brake pedal with both feet. Do NOT pump the brake pedal repeatedly as this will increase the effort required to slow the vehicle.
Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.
If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF, or to ACC. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.
-If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.
-If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.
In the event owners choose not to remove their floor mat, Toyota strongly recommends that they ensure that the correct floor mat is being used, that it is properly installed and secured, that it is not flipped over with bottom-side up, and that one floor mat is not stacked over another. Information on proper floor mat installation can be found on http://www.toyota.com.
Owners with questions or concerns, are asked to please contact the Toyota Customer Experience Center (1 800 331-4331) or consult the information posted at http://www.toyota.com
September 29, 2009
Well, first off i feel bad for his family and the loss of loved ones.
Now that i have that out of the way, what a tard(may he rest in peace).
I can't count how many times i've heard "police officers are trained to handle a vehicle" whenever i point out how some LEO's drive like absolute tards at high(read unsafe) speeds around town.
Maybe the remaining family members can sue the local government for what is, obviously, poor training.
I've had the accelerater pedal stick on my a few times(several in one car in fact). The MOMENT that I was no longer in control of the inputs(ie, let off the gas and it still accelerated at WOT) I instantly pushed the clutch in and turned the engine off.
I guess i'm a level 30 super driver with a bash skill of 13 with automatic 2x soak. Either that or i'm not just your average fool behind the wheel of a deadly weapon(to yourself and all those around you).
Going off into a further semi drunken tangent, I still think that the government should revoke everyones license(not at once, in batches to prevent a system overload). Once revoked the citizen would have 30 days to pass a new drivers exam that includes actual driver skill and not just "keep the little needle under the number posted on the sign" 3rd grade bullshit that they throw out there just to get some tards registration fee so he can get the hell out of the way for the next idiot to pay his fee.
The floor matts covering and pushing down the pedal has happened in many cars. That is why they all use fasteners.
I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 30, 2009, 05:33:35 AM
The floor matts covering and pushing down the pedal has happened in many cars. That is why they all use fasteners.
I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.
The guy is tooling along fat dumb and happy and suddenly the car won't slow down when he takes his foot of the gas. He was taken by surprise and was probably somewhat initially in a state of panic. Not unbelievable at all to me. Remember that most people have little real knowledge of how cars work nor are they particularly interested in learning how.
OMFG my company actually just sent out an e-mail about this :facepalm:
Quote from: Byteme on September 30, 2009, 06:32:26 AM
The guy is tooling along fat dumb and happy and suddenly the car won't slow down when he takes his foot of the gas. He was taken by surprise and was probably somewhat initially in a state of panic. Not unbelievable at all to me. Remember that most people have little real knowledge of how cars work nor are they particularly interested in learning how.
I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.
The interesting thing is that the european Toyotas (perhaps other as well) use the exact same construction, yet Toyota sees no need to recall them here. I'll let the implication sink in. (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/graphics/smilies/duck.gif)
Quote from: Galaxy on September 30, 2009, 10:32:01 AM
I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.
All I can say is judging by the number of incidents - apparently not. :huh:
Quote from: Galaxy on September 30, 2009, 10:32:01 AM
I think even the biggest idiot knows at minimum that the transmission has a go forward, go backwards, and a park modus. I would assume that in a situation like this they would try and put the transmission into park. Of course the lock will not allow that, and everse is also locked. You end up in neutral if you push the handle forward as far as it will go.
If this were to happen to you at a decent level of speed, do you think that you'd have a clear enough head to think to do that? I know I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure I would freak out.
CNN just ran a report on the Toyota floormat recall and ran the 911 tape where four people were killed while on the phone with 911. The driver didn't seem to be listening to the 911 operator, who asked at one point couldn't he turn the engine off. What surprised me was viewers responding with "just turn the engine off". Evidently, some people know what to do.
The VW engine went nuts, reving up uncontrollably, a little over a week ago, but I didn't panic. I kept trying different things and just before shutting the engine off, it straighten out.
my coworker claims he tried the push button on his altima and it will not turn off unless its in park... hmm
Maybe the answer isn't just to recall floormats, but to go back to key switches.
With electronic engine control systems, there is a possibility of a problem being caused by radio interference. Not from radio AM talk or FM jazz, but radio frequencies generated by electrical components like alternators or ignition coils. It's possible that the electronic throttle on the Lexus was being held open by this kind of a problem, with the PCM (computer) that controls the engine systems freaked out by interference.
Why the guy didn't push the gearshift to "N", I don't know. I don't know if this car has mechanical transmission linkage- any Toyota techs here?
Nah, it's pretty clear that the issue is the floor mats holding the throttle down, not electromagnetic interference.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2009, 01:17:30 PM
If this were to happen to you at a decent level of speed, do you think that you'd have a clear enough head to think to do that? I know I wouldn't. I'm pretty sure I would freak out.
Perhaps I am being arrogant, but I firmly believe that if this where to happen to me I would be able to handle it. Imo putting the transmission into neutral with a run away engine would happen almost as automatically as pulling your fingers from a hot stove.
Quote from: r0tor on September 30, 2009, 01:42:11 PM
my coworker claims he tried the push button on his altima and it will not turn off unless its in park... hmm
Toyota's advice is specific to its own vehicles. Nissan's keyless go might be programmed entirely differently.
Quote from: Galaxy on October 01, 2009, 06:22:11 AM
Perhaps I am being arrogant, but I firmly believe that if this where to happen to me I would be able to handle it. Imo putting the transmission into neutral with a run away engine would happen almost as automatically as pulling your fingers from a hot stove.
This is why I like having a manual gearbox. There's no interlocks to ever prevent the clutch from being pushed in (even though there shouldn't be any mechanism to prevent an auto from being shifted from drive into neutral), so even if for some reason you can't get the shifter out of gear, you can still cut the engine off from the wheels.
Quote from: r0tor on September 02, 2009, 10:02:11 AM
this is one odd story... sadly, i believe the officers aumotive intelligence probably rates up there with the officer who ticketed my friends audi for a blown tailight despite all attempts to show him both tailights were working and the difference between the two was the rear fog light.
Your friend deserves the ticket for driving around with the fog lights on but no fog like a tool.
it wasn't his audi... he didn't realize it was on -shrug-
Quote from: Galaxy on September 30, 2009, 05:33:35 AM
I can understand that he did not know that you need to hold down the button to stop the engine, but that he did not shift into neutral is unbelivable.
I was going to agree but I discussed this with my wife and she was
CLUELESS about what to do in this kind of situation.
My thinking in this situation is that if you pressed the brakes down MODERATELY but
not FULLY you could burn the brakes out without stopping..
ie Tard was trying to slow down (and see what would happen) rather than stop completely.
It may be as I suspected, not a floormat issue. I realize some of you have a great deal of faith in the Japanese designers, but they are only human and can make mistakes.
http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932 (http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932)
Brakes on fire? 120MPH? Isn't this a Lexus RX? How in the world did it burst into flames?
I'm sorry, but it takes awhile to get up to 120. You could have easily moved the floor mat or gas pedal.
Quote from: shp4man on October 19, 2009, 05:01:53 PM
It may be as I suspected, not a floormat issue. I realize some of you have a great deal of faith in the Japanese designers, but they are only human and can make mistakes.
http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932 (http://tristatehomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=103932)
Worse designed website ever. I refuse to trust anything from that piece of shit.
I'm still a bit confused.
120MPH with four people inside? You didn't realize when you started increasing in speed?
Quote from: 2o6 on October 19, 2009, 05:07:19 PM
Brakes on fire? 120MPH? Isn't this a Lexus RX? How in the world did it burst into flames?
I'm sorry, but it takes awhile to get up to 120. You could have easily moved the floor mat or gas pedal.
Well, it depends on the car... :lol:
But yes I imagine it takes awhile in an RX, depending on the original speed.