http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Ferrari-458-Italia-driven_723351.htm :clap:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3192/3044720756_a3a94bcdba.jpg?v=0)
:wub:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/33-ferrari-458-live.jpg)
:cry:
I appreciate DSGs , but the Ferrari shift gate is a work of art so it's sad to see it go. I guess the 612 will be the last Ferrari with a traditional MT; who would have ever thought?
Hey man... I'm sure someone out there is lamenting the death of drum brakes. You can't stop progress... especially when it looks, sounds and goes so good. Plus with all that power, it's better to leave shifting up to the car anyway.
The beginning of the end of the manual transmission. This is a sad day.
As for the 458...I don't know. The front end just doesn't look right. Beyond that it's got a gorgeous shape.
Wow...no manual?
Stupid.
Quote from: Submariner on December 12, 2009, 10:37:39 PM
Wow...no manual?
Stupid.
It's got damn near 600 HP. Better to let you focus on keeping it on the road than keeping it in its powerband. I think it's a good move on Ferarri's part.
Automanual trannys are not gimmicks. Their first sporting applications were in F1/rally cars.
Like most people I miss the manual transmission. Not that I'll ever own/drive this car anyway. I just fear this shit will trickle down to cars I do buy one day.
As for the car, gorgeous. I love every line and curve on it. And I have no doubt that it's an awesome car to drive. I can only dream.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 09:10:34 AM
It's got damn near 600 HP. Better to let you focus on keeping it on the road than keeping it in its powerband. I think it's a good move on Ferarri's part.
Automanual trannys are not gimmicks. Their first sporting applications were in F1/rally cars.
There are plenty of cars with over 600 hp that have traditional manuals and they do just fine.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 10:11:30 AM
Like most people I miss the manual transmission. Not that I'll ever own/drive this car anyway. I just fear this shit will trickle down to cars I do buy one day.
As for the car, gorgeous. I love every line and curve on it. And I have no doubt that it's an awesome car to drive. I can only dream.
It already is starting to trickle down to cars that normal people can afford. Look at the Lancer Ralliart or Golf R32. Both are DSG-only. How long until other more affordable performance cars go the same road?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 09:10:34 AM
It's got damn near 600 HP. Better to let you focus on keeping it on the road than keeping it in its powerband. I think it's a good move on Ferarri's part.
Automanual trannys are not gimmicks. Their first sporting applications were in F1/rally cars.
I know that they have their merits...If I were racing a vehicle, I would probably choose an automated manual/DSG. However, for fun, I don't think you can beat rowing through the gears yourself.
Quote from: Submariner on December 13, 2009, 11:06:28 AM
I know that they have their merits...If I were racing a vehicle, I would probably choose an automated manual/DSG. However, for fun, I don't think you can beat rowing through the gears yourself.
Not to mention the ability to do a big, smoky brake-stand burnout. Will any of these automated systems even allow for that or do the electronics step in and prevent it? I know that the Lancer Ralliart suffers because the system won't let you launch the car as aggressively as you could with a regular manual.
I can change a clutch and do some minor work on a normal transmission. I wouldn't know WTF to do to ones of these things. I have no need for it.
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 13, 2009, 10:51:30 AM
There are plenty of cars with over 600 hp that have traditional manuals and they do just fine.
+1 I would prefer a regular manual in most situations. On the track it would be a differant story.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 11:23:55 AM
I can change a clutch and do some minor work on a normal transmission. I wouldn't know WTF to do to ones of these things. I have no need for it.
Because you're going to serveice your own transmission on your new $250,000 Ferrari.
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 11:42:52 AM
Because you're going to serveice your own transmission on your new $250,000 Ferrari.
No, I'm talking about this stuff becoming more common on the cars that I will buy one day.
If I had the money for a 458 then I'd never need to work on any car.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 11:59:25 AM
No, I'm talking about this stuff becoming more common on the cars that I will buy one day.
If I had the money for a 458 then I'd never need to work on any car.
I think DSG's are going to become the most popular transmission choice in the near future, so perhaps you should read up on how they work.
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 12:16:53 PM
I think DSG's are going to become the most popular transmission choice in the near future, so perhaps you should read up on how they work.
Or I'll just get old cars and keep them up. My MX-5 probably has another 20 years in her without much work.
Or just hope that Mazda keeps making 6 speeds for a long time.
Quote from: Submariner on December 13, 2009, 11:06:28 AM
I know that they have their merits...If I were racing a vehicle, I would probably choose an automated manual/DSG. However, for fun, I don't think you can beat rowing through the gears yourself.
I dunno. For something like an S2000 that requires you to constantly be changing gears, even with its incredible gearbox eventually the stickshift gets in the way. That car would benefit immensely from a DSG box.
For a turbocharged car, DSG would enable the car to stay in boost. And for a car with a broad powerband, DSG would eliminate the pauses in power delivery and be more efficient than an auto box.
IDK; to me it seems like a win-win. The only reasons autos get a bad rap is because they have been geared terribly and usually don't have good performance programming. After having driven the G35x a while back, I'm a believer in a well sorted auto or DSG over a manual. You get to enjoy the rest of the car more.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 12:30:42 PM
Or I'll just get old cars and keep them up. My MX-5 probably has another 20 years in her without much work.
Or just hope that Mazda keeps making 6 speeds for a long time.
Or you can choose to remain ignorant, like the old guys who still run carburetors because they don't have a clue how good fuel injection is.
I personally wouldn't miss the manual transmission. Self shifting is overrated.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 12:38:20 PM
I dunno. For something like an S2000 that requires you to constantly be changing gears, even with its incredible gearbox eventually the stickshift gets in the way. That car would benefit immensely from a DSG box.
For a turbocharged car, DSG would enable the car to stay in boost. And for a car with a broad powerband, DSG would eliminate the pauses in power delivery and be more efficient than an auto box.
IDK; to me it seems like a win-win. The only reasons autos get a bad rap is because they have been geared terribly and usually don't have good performance programming. After having driven the G35x a while back, I'm a believer in a well sorted auto or DSG over a manual. You get to enjoy the rest of the car more.
Don't get me wrong. There are times I would prefer an automated box over a manual. My DD is an automatic, and I thoroughly enjoy it.
That being said, I can't imagine my dads 911 being more rewarding with an autobox, or even their PDK transmission. Rowing through the gears on that car is so satisfying. You feel...connected; as if you feel every ounce of power the engine is squeezing out flow through your right hand, and your left foot. It's a truly rewarding experience, and I surmise is the best possible way to drive that car.
Quote from: Submariner on December 13, 2009, 12:45:30 PM
Don't get me wrong. There are times I would prefer an automated box over a manual. My DD is an automatic, and I thoroughly enjoy it.
That being said, I can't imagine my dads 911 being more rewarding with an autobox, or even their PDK transmission. Rowing through the gears on that car is so satisfying. You feel...connected; as if you feel every ounce of power the engine is squeezing out flow through your right hand, and your left foot. It's a truly rewarding experience, and I surmise is the best possible way to drive that car.
I would have to drive a manual & auto Porsche to confirm that. I think a PDK 997 C2S would be no less thrilling than the stickshift version, and it would probably be a little quicker in a mountain run with the extra ratio & non-existent shift times.
Plus while cars like the 911 have awesome clutch/shifter setups, there are a lot of manufacturers who haven't done the manual tranny justice. For example the stick in the first G35 was atrocious and rife with problems. 2nd gen too. Nissans in general have shitty shifters and clutches. A DSG (and higher quality interior) would have solidified the G35 as the 3 series beater.
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 12:38:22 PM
Or you can choose to remain ignorant, like the old guys who still run carburetors because they don't have a clue how good fuel injection is.
If it makes them happy then they should run carburetors. And most of them probably know that fuel injection is good. They just like messing with carburetors because that's the way it was when they were young. And their easy to work on anyway.
I enjoy shifting gears. It's been a major deciding factor in the cars I've owned. It's got to be in just the right place with short throws and a short little shifter. I'm not a fan of the ones that are too smooth like the S2000, they feel like your moving the shifter in melted butter. I want one with a little bit of a mechanical feel to them.
If I was building a race car then the absolute best performing parts would be the logical choice. But for a car that I drive around for fun I personally want to change the gears the old way. It's not ignorance just a personal preference.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 12:38:20 PM
I dunno. For something like an S2000 that requires you to constantly be changing gears, even with its incredible gearbox eventually the stickshift gets in the way. That car would benefit immensely from a DSG box.
I can't agree with this or even see why someone would think that the stickshift gets in the way. I've got to throw the gears around all the time in both my cars and I'd have it no other way.
I'd have zero interest in a S2000 with the set up you'd like.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 12:57:42 PM
If it makes them happy then they should run carburetors. And most of them probably know that fuel injection is good. They just like messing with carburetors because that's the way it was when they were young. And their easy to work on anyway.
I enjoy shifting gears. It's been a major deciding factor in the cars I've owned. It's got to be in just the right place with short throws and a short little shifter. I'm not a fan of the ones that are too smooth like the S2000, they feel like your moving the shifter in melted butter. I want one with a little bit of a mechanical feel to them.
If I was building a race car then the absolute best performing parts would be the logical choice. But for a car that I drive around for fun I personally want to change the gears the old way. It's not ignorance just a personal preference.
Cut the bullshit. This is ignorance:
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 11:23:55 AM
I can change a clutch and do some minor work on a normal transmission. I wouldn't know WTF to do to ones of these things. I have no need for it.
And you are choosing it.
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 01:03:25 PM
Cut the bullshit. This is ignorance:
And you are choosing it.
What's you're problem kid? You seem to have an attitude as of late with short little know it all posts with people.
You don't like the fact that some people actually like to shift gears then you can stick it.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 01:07:24 PM
What's you're problem kid? You seem to have an attitude as of late with short little know it all posts with people.
You don't like the fact that some people actually like to shift gears then you can stick it.
Seems like you're the one with the problem, kid.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 12:38:20 PM
I dunno. For something like an S2000 that requires you to constantly be changing gears, even with its incredible gearbox eventually the stickshift gets in the way. That car would benefit immensely from a DSG box.
For a turbocharged car, DSG would enable the car to stay in boost. And for a car with a broad powerband, DSG would eliminate the pauses in power delivery and be more efficient than an auto box.
IDK; to me it seems like a win-win. The only reasons autos get a bad rap is because they have been geared terribly and usually don't have good performance programming. After having driven the G35x a while back, I'm a believer in a well sorted auto or DSG over a manual. You get to enjoy the rest of the car more.
Read the latest Road & Track. They actually did a comparison test between the same cars with both transmissions. They're conclusion was that for the most fun, manual transmissions are the way to go because they are the most rewarding when you master them, and DSG for the track. No human can shift as fast as a DSG and that makes it the fastest way around a track, but it doesn't make it the most fun.
I don't see how it would be any easier to modulate the throttle in a manumatic.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 12:57:42 PM
If it makes them happy then they should run carburetors. And most of them probably know that fuel injection is good. They just like messing with carburetors because that's the way it was when they were young. And their easy to work on anyway.
I enjoy shifting gears. It's been a major deciding factor in the cars I've owned. It's got to be in just the right place with short throws and a short little shifter. I'm not a fan of the ones that are too smooth like the S2000, they feel like your moving the shifter in melted butter. I want one with a little bit of a mechanical feel to them.
If I was building a race car then the absolute best performing parts would be the logical choice. But for a car that I drive around for fun I personally want to change the gears the old way. It's not ignorance just a personal preference.
:ohyeah:
Nah, the traditional manual ain't nothing all that special. With a such an ultra responsive engine like this the DSG-style tranny is the way to go every level.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 13, 2009, 09:10:34 AM
It's got damn near 600 HP. Better to let you focus on keeping it on the road than keeping it in its powerband. I think it's a good move on Ferarri's part.
Automanual trannys are not gimmicks. Their first sporting applications were in F1/rally cars.
They're not gimmicks in a race car. In a road car, they absolutely are.
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 13, 2009, 03:17:00 PM
:ohyeah:
How can you give a "thumbs up oh yeah" to flat out lies like that? :rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 04:01:07 PM
How can you give a "thumbs up oh yeah" to flat out lies like that? :rolleyes:
Please tell me how liking one thing over the other for normal road use is a "flat out lie."
It's like saying people who like pop up headlamps are dumb because they're out of style.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=20723.msg1223107#msg1223107 date=1260744464
They're not gimmicks in a race car. In a road car, they absolutely are.
Exactly.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 05:07:41 PM
Please tell me how liking one thing over the other for normal road use is a "flat out lie."
It's like saying people who like pop up headlamps are dumb because they're out of style.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Sure, you're a liar, and an idiot, but at least you're happy with yourself.
Quote from: NACar on December 13, 2009, 05:35:26 PM
Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Sure, you're a liar, and an idiot, but at least you're happy with yourself.
I don't care if someone calls me an idiot, motherfucker, dick head, jerk weed, asshole and so on.
But your punk ass better hope I never actually see you for calling me a liar.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 13, 2009, 05:39:10 PM
I don't care if someone calls me an idiot, motherfucker, dick head, jerk weed, asshole and so on.
But your punk ass better hope I never actually see you for calling me a liar.
Maybe you shouldn't lie if you don't want to be a liar. :rolleyes:
WTF is your problem NACar?
:popcorn:
What the hell is wrong with nick today :confused:
Quote from: SVT_Power on December 13, 2009, 09:38:38 PM
What the hell is wrong with nick today :confused:
He's become so silly that he's completely lost touch with reality.
Since when am I the one with the problem here? I point out how Onslot refuses to understand and remain ignorant of DSG's, flat out lies about it doing so even though he just admitted it, and gets pissy at me instead of smartening up.
You're trolling bro
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 14, 2009, 02:58:22 AM
You're trolling bro
Absolutely not. People need to wake the fuck up.
I don't have a problem with a DSG tranny. I'm completely not a fan on conventional slushies with a torque converter as the torque converter can lead to the drivetrain commands feeling dampened when the torque converter isn't locked.
A dsg feels like a manual as far as powertrain response - thats what really feels the most rewarding to me personally
Quote from: r0tor on December 14, 2009, 06:30:32 AM
I don't have a problem with a DSG tranny. I'm completely not a fan on conventional slushies with a torque converter as the torque converter can lead to the drivetrain commands feeling dampened when the torque converter isn't locked.
A dsg feels like a manual as far as powertrain response - thats what really feels the most rewarding to me personally
I found the DSG equipped GTI that I drove back in 06 to be quite fun. Snaps off shifts in a hurry, has all the engine braking/speed control of a manual but you don't have to think about it, just drive the thing. Plus, no balky shifters in the winter.
Quote from: R-inge on December 14, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
I found the DSG equipped GTI that I drove back in 06 to be quite fun. Snaps off shifts in a hurry, has all the engine braking/speed control of a manual but you don't have to think about it, just drive the thing. Plus, no balky shifters in the winter.
And that, to me, is the failure of a DSG to replace a manual. The DCTs should replace automatics completely (other than CVTs), as they are more efficient, but the driving experience will never match that of a proper manual. I do not care about track times.
If you're cruising in 5th gear with an auto-manual and you come up to a light, do you have to downshift through each gear to get to neutral? Or if you are slowing down for a light and then it turns green when you're doing about 20mph, do you have to shift down through 4th and 3rd to get to 2nd? If so that would be mildly annoying.
Quote from: mojammer on December 14, 2009, 03:01:19 PM
If you're cruising in 5th gear with an auto-manual and you come up to a light, do you have to downshift through each gear to get to neutral? Or if you are slowing down for a light and then it turns green when you're doing about 20mph, do you have to shift down through 4th and 3rd to get to 2nd? If so that would be mildly annoying.
I would guess that it automatically downshifts at idle, or maybe like 500 rpms above idle.
Quote from: mojammer on December 14, 2009, 03:01:19 PM
If you're cruising in 5th gear with an auto-manual and you come up to a light, do you have to downshift through each gear to get to neutral? Or if you are slowing down for a light and then it turns green when you're doing about 20mph, do you have to shift down through 4th and 3rd to get to 2nd? If so that would be mildly annoying.
Yes. But you also could just stick it in "auto". Or am I full of shit?
Don't we have any DSG gearbox owners around? Does SJ_GTI have DSG?
Quote from: SVT_Power on December 14, 2009, 03:44:44 PM
Don't we have any DSG gearbox owners around? Does SJ_GTI have DSG?
I don't know of any. I drive traditional manuals, as I do prefer them.
Quote from: Raza on December 14, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
And that, to me, is the failure of a DSG to replace a manual. The DCTs should replace automatics completely (other than CVTs), as they are more efficient, but the driving experience will never match that of a proper manual. I do not care about track times.
+100
And that is why I found Forza 3 played with a wheel with a 6 speed shifter and clutch so addicting. You can't just pull a paddle and let the game blip the throttle for you. You have to know how to ease on the gas and to not just dump the clutch after shifting. It's ridiculously fun BECAUSE you have to think about it, at least for me anyways.
Quote from: NACar on December 14, 2009, 03:13:22 AM
Absolutely not. People need to wake the fuck up.
..........and drive.
(http://www.mitsubishi-galant-sports.info/gallery/photos/2000/mitsubishi-galant-sports-photo-large.jpg)
Quote from: thecarnut on December 14, 2009, 03:58:27 PM
+100
And that is why I found Forza 3 played with a wheel with a 6 speed shifter and clutch so addicting. You can't just pull a paddle and let the game blip the throttle for you. You have to know how to ease on the gas and to not just dump the clutch after shifting. It's ridiculously fun BECAUSE you have to think about it, at least for me anyways.
Off topic, but how does that work for the IS-F? It it's an 8AT.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 14, 2009, 04:01:03 PM
Off topic, but how does that work for the IS-F? It it's an 8AT.
My friend (who owns the wheel and Xbox) says you can shift it normally until 6th gear and then use the paddles to shift up after that.
I'd just use the paddles for that car.
Quote from: thecarnut on December 14, 2009, 04:01:58 PM
My friend (who owns the wheel and Xbox) says you can shift it normally until 6th gear and then use the paddles to shift up after that.
I'd just use the paddles for that car.
I just wouldn't drive that car. :huh:
:lol:
Manuals just seem like an unnecessary step, ESPECIALLY in spirited driving.
Say for example you're on a private closed course, and are a professional driver. You are doing about 70, and someone squeaks by you at about 85. To me, the more enjoyable choice would be to flick a paddle 2-3 times and be in gear in less than a second, rather than to analyze my speed, select the right gear mentally, clutch out, select the right gear physically+rev match, clutch in, and then be able to accelerate probably 2-3 seconds later, while running the risk of damaging your drivetrain... all to obtain the same result. I can't imagine anyone here hi-fiving themselves after completing a proper downshift; and I highly doubt anyone would come away from driving a 458 Italia and saying 'man that car wouldn't suck if it had a traditional manual'...
And it's even worse if you're braking into a turn...
ZF just developed an 8 speed auto that can use a wet multiplate clutch, torque converter and electric motor as the coupling device between it and the engine. It's not much less efficient than a DSG box, and of course is available in RWD or AWD. I'm curious to see how that works out. It can hold 1000N-m of torque too.
Quote from: mojammer on December 14, 2009, 03:01:19 PM
If you're cruising in 5th gear with an auto-manual and you come up to a light, do you have to downshift through each gear to get to neutral? Or if you are slowing down for a light and then it turns green when you're doing about 20mph, do you have to shift down through 4th and 3rd to get to 2nd? If so that would be mildly annoying.
No different than operating a motorcycle, which has a manual sequential gearbox. Granted, the ability to skip straight from any gear to any other is one benefit of the traditional "H-pattern" gearbox.
My biggest gripe with SMG/DSG type boxes is the absence of the clutch pedal. I like being able to modulate the clutch, particularly when operating in slick conditions (snow and ice).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 14, 2009, 04:56:31 PM
Manuals just seem like an unnecessary step, ESPECIALLY in spirited driving.
Say for example you're on a private closed course, and are a professional driver. You are doing about 70, and someone squeaks by you at about 85. To me, the more enjoyable choice would be to flick a paddle 2-3 times and be in gear in less than a second, rather than to analyze my speed, select the right gear mentally, clutch out, select the right gear physically+rev match, clutch in, and then be able to accelerate probably 2-3 seconds later, while running the risk of damaging your drivetrain... all to obtain the same result. I can't imagine anyone here hi-fiving themselves after completing a proper downshift; and I highly doubt anyone would come away from driving a 458 Italia and saying 'man that car wouldn't suck if it had a traditional manual'...
And it's even worse if you're braking into a turn...
ZF just developed an 8 speed auto that can use a wet multiplate clutch, torque converter and electric motor as the coupling device between it and the engine. It's not much less efficient than a DSG box, and of course is available in RWD or AWD. I'm curious to see how that works out. It can hold 1000N-m of torque too.
You're talking about racing, not every day street use. For racing I would rather have a DSG, but for every day use I'll take a manual any day. BTW, the McLaren F1 that finished 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th overall at the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1994 were all driven with 6 speed manuals with clutch pedals. They had 627 hp and were travelling at ridiculous speeds. Those shifters and clutch pedals didn't get in the way then, so why would they now?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 14, 2009, 04:56:31 PM
Manuals just seem like an unnecessary step, ESPECIALLY in spirited driving.
Say for example you're on a private closed course, and are a professional driver. You are doing about 70, and someone squeaks by you at about 85. To me, the more enjoyable choice would be to flick a paddle 2-3 times and be in gear in less than a second, rather than to analyze my speed, select the right gear mentally, clutch out, select the right gear physically+rev match, clutch in, and then be able to accelerate probably 2-3 seconds later, while running the risk of damaging your drivetrain... all to obtain the same result. I can't imagine anyone here hi-fiving themselves after completing a proper downshift; and I highly doubt anyone would come away from driving a 458 Italia and saying 'man that car wouldn't suck if it had a traditional manual'...
And it's even worse if you're braking into a turn...
ZF just developed an 8 speed auto that can use a wet multiplate clutch, torque converter and electric motor as the coupling device between it and the engine. It's not much less efficient than a DSG box, and of course is available in RWD or AWD. I'm curious to see how that works out. It can hold 1000N-m of torque too.
I am always happy when I pull off a proper, smooth downshift in a manual car. You don't get that sense of satisfaction in a DSG equipped car. :huh:
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2009, 05:06:03 PM
I like being able to modulate the clutch, particularly when operating in slick conditions (snow and ice).
Bingo
Quote from: Onslaught on December 14, 2009, 05:45:58 PM
Bingo
Yes. I'm experiencing that right now. We had our first snowfall of the year yesterday. FUN!
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 14, 2009, 05:22:16 PM
You're talking about racing, not every day street use. For racing I would rather have a DSG, but for every day use I'll take a manual any day. BTW, the McLaren F1 that finished 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th overall at the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1994 were all driven with 6 speed manuals with clutch pedals. They had 627 hp and were travelling at ridiculous speeds. Those shifters and clutch pedals didn't get in the way then, so why would they now?
For every day use it's an extra hassle, at least to me. I guess it's just a difference in opinion. Unless we leave NYC soon, and I don't do the Zipcar thing (having a car is key in cold weather) my next car will definitely be automatic.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 14, 2009, 08:15:08 PM
For every day use it's an extra hassle, at least to me. I guess it's just a difference in opinion. Unless we leave NYC soon, and I don't do the Zipcar thing (having a car is key in cold weather) my next car will definitely be automatic.
Yeah, but you live in one of the largest cities in the world. I wouldn't want a manual there either.
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 14, 2009, 08:20:25 PM
Yeah, but you live in one of the largest cities in the world. I wouldn't want a manual there either.
I think the key word is congested, not necessarily largest although they generally go hand in hand
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 14, 2009, 08:20:25 PM
Yeah, but you live in one of the largest cities in the world. I wouldn't want a manual there either.
I wouldn't even want a car in NYC.
Quote from: SVT_Power on December 14, 2009, 03:44:44 PM
Don't we have any DSG gearbox owners around? Does SJ_GTI have DSG?
Of course we do. Look at my signature: I've been driving one for more then 19 months already
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2009, 05:06:03 PM... SMG/DSG type boxes ...
Since when (technically speaking) these two are identical or similar?
Quote from: thecarnut on December 14, 2009, 05:33:55 PM
I am always happy when I pull off a proper, smooth downshift in a manual car. You don't get that sense of satisfaction in a DSG equipped car. :huh:
I crack off probably a hundred throttle blipped downshifts a day without even thinking... -shrug-
Please stop using video games as justification on the matter.
Manuals exist because they are cheap, and even that advantage is minuscule given how rare they are in NA and other large markets.
Pretty soon manual transmissions will go the way of leaf springs, pooprods, live axles and drum brakes.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 06:50:03 AM
Please stop using video games as justification on the matter.
Manuals exist because they are cheap, and even that advantage is minuscule given how rare they are in NA and other large markets.
Pretty soon manual transmissions will go the way of leaf springs, pooprods, live axles and drum brakes.
Huh. Except for drum brakes those are all still in use today.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 06:50:03 AM
Please stop using video games as justification on the matter.
Manuals exist because they are cheap, and even that advantage is minuscule given how rare they are in NA and other large markets.
Pretty soon manual transmissions will go the way of leaf springs, pooprods, live axles and drum brakes.
Are you talking about Japan?
Most of Europe, South America, China and other countries still use M/T shifts over the Automatic.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 06:50:03 AM
Please stop using video games as justification on the matter.
Manuals exist because they are cheap, and even that advantage is minuscule given how rare they are in NA and other large markets.
Pretty soon manual transmissions will go the way of leaf springs, pooprods, live axles and drum brakes.
Manuals exist because people enjoy them. People don't buy 911's and say, "Oh, two grand more for the auto box? Yeah, screw that. I simply cannot afford to spend that kind of money."
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 14, 2009, 04:56:31 PM
Manuals just seem like an unnecessary step, ESPECIALLY in spirited driving.
Say for example you're on a private closed course, and are a professional driver. You are doing about 70, and someone squeaks by you at about 85. To me, the more enjoyable choice would be to flick a paddle 2-3 times and be in gear in less than a second, rather than to analyze my speed, select the right gear mentally, clutch out, select the right gear physically+rev match, clutch in, and then be able to accelerate probably 2-3 seconds later, while running the risk of damaging your drivetrain... all to obtain the same result. I can't imagine anyone here hi-fiving themselves after completing a proper downshift; and I highly doubt anyone would come away from driving a 458 Italia and saying 'man that car wouldn't suck if it had a traditional manual'...
And it's even worse if you're braking into a turn...
ZF just developed an 8 speed auto that can use a wet multiplate clutch, torque converter and electric motor as the coupling device between it and the engine. It's not much less efficient than a DSG box, and of course is available in RWD or AWD. I'm curious to see how that works out. It can hold 1000N-m of torque too.
Man, driving is such a distraction when driving! Why can't I get in my car, do nothing, and arrive at my destination?
If you don't want to enjoy driving, then it doesn't matter what transmission your car has. Your argument is bullshit. "Oh man, I have to think about a downshift in a manual and in a DCT I can just flick paddles until the computer stops me or I over-rev the engine badly. See, that's easy. No brain make think hard car no go."
Quote from: r0tor on December 15, 2009, 06:29:33 AM
I crack off probably a hundred throttle blipped downshifts a day without even thinking... -shrug-
Lovely.
You don't think when you drive. That's good to know.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 15, 2009, 09:03:21 AM
Are you talking about Japan?
Most of Europe, South America, China and other countries still use M/T shifts over the Automatic.
Not sure about South America, but in China people buy manuals cause they are cheaper. It's like "Oh you bought automatic, you rich man!" Once you get to like expensive cars like BMWs, they are all autos.
Quote from: Raza on December 15, 2009, 11:01:14 AM
Lovely.
You don't think when you drive. That's good to know.
no... maybe the first 6 months of blipping the throttle on downshifts produced a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction. The last 4 years it comes about as exciting as upshifting - which barely takes any amount of cognitive ability after all these years
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 06:50:03 AM
Please stop using video games as justification on the matter.
Manuals exist because they are cheap, and even that advantage is minuscule given how rare they are in NA and other large markets.
Pretty soon manual transmissions will go the way of leaf springs, pooprods, live axles and drum brakes.
I agree about the video game part.
The other part is bull. We still have all three.
M/T is on the precipice of being outdated technology; yes, just like drum brakes, live axles, leaf springs, and pooprod engines.
Sigh - that all these outdated technologies are still used today still means they are nothing other than outdated technologies.
The M/T soldiers on in increasingly rare numbers because it is cheap.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 02:36:15 PM
The M/T soldiers on in increasingly rare numbers because it is cheap.
It soldiers on because the only people who buy them are enthusiasts.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 15, 2009, 02:36:15 PM
M/T is on the precipice of being outdated technology; yes, just like drum brakes, live axles, leaf springs, and pooprod engines.
Sigh - that all these outdated technologies are still used today still means they are nothing other than outdated technologies.
The M/T soldiers on in increasingly rare numbers because it is cheap.
Live axles for well in the Mustang for drag racing. I know it's a stretch but it's true.
Leaf Springs work well in the C6, Z06 and ZR1.
MT soldiers on in sports cars. A kind of car that's a rather small chunk of car sales. And they have MT because most people want them.
Drum Brakes do suck.
Quote from: HEMI666 on December 15, 2009, 02:41:39 PM
It soldiers on because the only people who buy them are enthusiasts.
No use in trying to explain that one. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Submariner on December 15, 2009, 03:43:24 PM
No use in trying to explain that one. :rolleyes:
I'm really beginning to think he's an unthusiast.
I do think Cougs may have liked cars once in the past, a long long time ago. I think his time at CS is merely an academic exercise.
Quote from: Onslaught on December 14, 2009, 08:58:01 PM
I wouldn't even want a car in NYC.
I don't want to live in NYC (mostly because it would take all the joy out of driving).
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 15, 2009, 04:20:13 PM
I don't want to live in NYC (mostly because it would take all the joy out of driving).
Every car I saw in that State looked like shit. Door dents and fucked up bumpers from people hitting them in the limited parking.
No way I'd bother having a car I loved.
Quote from: AltinD on December 15, 2009, 06:19:13 AM
Since when (technically speaking) these two are identical or similar?
They're both sequential-type manual gearboxes and they're both automated. In fact, DSG is a subset of SMG (all DSGs are SMGs, but not all SMGs are DSGs). I clump them in the same overall family group (as distinct from automatics and non-automated manuals).
Apart the faxt that DSG has TWO clutches and their plates are always on the gear ... oh, and that the DSG is basically 2 manual gearboxes of 3 speed each, bonded together.
Are the W12 and the V12 the same thing?
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2009, 06:01:21 AM
Apart the faxt that DSG has TWO clutches and their plates are always on the gear ... oh, and that the DSG is basically 2 manual gearboxes of 3 speed each, bonded together.
Are the W12 and the V12 the same thing?
You're a fucking retard. Please stop talking
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 16, 2009, 10:21:33 AM
You're a fucking retard. Please stop talking
LOL ... I still drive one. Do you? :evildude:
Do I want to? :evildude:
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2009, 11:25:38 AM
LOL ... I still drive one. Do you? :evildude:
What does that have to do with anything?
I love how we're arguing over the semantics of transmission names when they're all just manufacturer's titles to the same thing (automated manual transmissions).
Electrohydraulic manual transmission:
SMG (BMW) = F1 (Ferrari) = SMT (Toyota) = E gear (Lamborghini) = R tronic (Lamborghini)
Dual clutch transmission:
DSG (VW) = M DCT (BMW) = Powershift (Ford) = PDK (Porsche) = a bunch of other dual clutch transmissions that other manufacturers haven't given specific names to
And yes, there are fundamental design differences between the two categories, but they're all automated manual transmissions that the driver has to sequentially go through the gears on.
SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox
DSG is a sequential manual gearbox
Is it not? :facepalm:
.... SMG is a computer operated traditional clutch and shifter linkage
.... DSG has 2 clutches and a traditional clutch pedal and shifter would never work
not even remotely the same
You're comparing apples to oranges. MX793 already made it clear:
Quote from: MX793 on December 15, 2009, 04:53:25 PM
all DSGs are SMGs, but not all SMGs are DSGs
DSG is a specific type of SMG
You guys really love to argue semantics
Just get pissed off when someone tries to feel superior by spouting off information about a transmission to a rocket scientist.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 16, 2009, 01:59:41 PM
Just get pissed off when someone tries to feel superior by spouting off information about a transmission to a rocket scientist.
Why would a rocket scientist know anything about transmitions? Rockets DO NOT have gears ... but I do have a DSG :devil:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on December 16, 2009, 12:16:44 PM
I love how we're arguing over the semantics of transmission names when they're all just manufacturer's titles to the same thing (automated manual transmissions).
Electrohydraulic manual transmission:
SMG (BMW) = F1 (Ferrari) = SMT (Toyota) = E gear (Lamborghini) = R tronic (Lamborghini)
Dual clutch transmission:
DSG (VW) = M DCT (BMW) = Powershift (Ford) = PDK (Porsche) = a bunch of other dual clutch transmissions that other manufacturers haven't given specific names to
I classify them as follows:
DCT - Dual Clutch Transmission
ACT or SACT - Auto Clutch Transmission/Single Auto Clutch Transmission
ACT can also refer to a DCT, which is why I feel it needs an S to differentiate that it's a single clutch. I could have gone "SCT", but a proper manual also only has one clutch, so that would also be confusing.
Quote
And yes, there are fundamental design differences between the two categories, but they're all automated manual transmissions that the driver has to sequentially go through the gears on.
This statement is inaccurate. The driver
can sequentially and manually shift gears in any ACT, just as with the major of conventional, torque converter automatics and CVTs.
As that statement is true, any ACT is an automatic transmission, by the definition and etymology of the word
automatic, regardless of marketing departments around the world.
Quote from: AltinD on December 16, 2009, 06:01:21 AM
Apart the faxt that DSG has TWO clutches and their plates are always on the gear ... oh, and that the DSG is basically 2 manual gearboxes of 3 speed each, bonded together.
The internal workings are obviously very different, but the driver interface is the same, they both shift through gears sequentially, making them distinct from a traditional H-pattern manual, and both use automatically controlled clutches instead of torque converters and planetary gearsets, making them distinct from a traditional automatic.
When it really comes down to it, you ultimately only have 3 types of transmissions:
1) Single speed (like a go-kart)
2) Automatic (any transmission that is capable of shifting gears automatically)
3) Manual (any transmission that it incapable of shifting gears automatically)
In this classification, both automated SMGs and DSGs generally fall in the "automatic" catagory (with a few exceptions, such as the SMG Toyota MR-S which had no fully automatic mode).
QuoteAre the W12 and the V12 the same thing?
No, but both are subsets of the "12 cylinder" engine group. All V12s and all W12s are 12-cylinder engines, but not all 12-cylinder engines are V12 and not all 12-cylinders are W12.
A more apt comparison would be pushrod engines and OHC (overhead cam) engines. Pushrods are commonly refered to as "OHV" (overhead valve). However, OHC engines are also OHV. It's perfectly accurate to call either an OHC or a pushrod "OHV", but it is not accurate to call a pushrod OHC. All OHCs are OHV, but not all OHVs are OHC. Similarly, all DSGs are sequential manual gearboxes, but not all sequential manuals are DSG-type. There are also non-automated SMGs (like on motorcycles).
^^ I totally agree with you, but if you noticed I put a "technically speaking" in my original post.
However the behaviour of a DSG in Auto mode is distinguishable from that of a torque converter Automatic.
Well shit... since everyone else is making up their own categories
"Old-School Traditional transmission"... all have roots tracing back for the last 100 year
traditional torque converter automatics, manually shifted w/manually operated clutches, torque converter automatics with manual shifting (think drag racing powerglide), traditional manual gearbox with dog teeth requiring no clutch after you get going (available in Nascar H-pattern, motorcycle and indycar up/down style), and manual gearboxes with elctronic/hydraulic actuated clutches (available in paddle shift F1 style and motorcycle up/down)
"New School Gearboxes" - The traditional gearbox evolved after 100 years of technological upgrades
twin clutch direct shift (DSG)
I no longer take ownership of this thread.