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Toyota recalls 2.3 million more cars with stuck accelerators
01/21/2010, 6:28 PM
BY MARK KLEIS


2009 saw the largest-ever recall in the history of Toyota with 4.3 million vehicles recalled due to floor mats catching the accelerator pedal. Now, Toyota has launched a separate recall for 2.3 million vehicles concerning gas pedals that can malfunction and stick ? without a floor mat in the vehicle.

Toyota says that the latest recall is totally separate from the previous recall, and addresses the possibility of some accelerator pedals becoming stuck in a position that applies throttle, without a floor mat being present.

?Our investigation indicates that there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position,? said Irv Miller, Toyota USA group vice president.

According to a report from Toyota, the chance of the pedal becoming stuck is very low, but it increases as the pedal wears over time. According to Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons, the pedal may become harder to press and may be slow to return once released. Because it is an issue that develops gradually over time, it was not detected during testing and development, prior to entering production.

Toyota says that it is notifying owners of the potential problem as well as advising them on how to react should the problem occur while driving. Toyota suggests not pumping the brakes, which may deplete brake pressure, but instead to apply firm, constant pressure, pull over at a safe location and turn the vehicle off. Toyota then suggests that owners make contact with a local dealership to obtain further assistance.

The vehicles effected by this recall include: 2009-10 Toyota Rav4, Corolla, Matrix, 2005-2010 Avalon, 2010 Highlander, 2007-2010 Tundra, 2008-2010 Sequoia and 2008-10 Camry ? not including the Camry Hybrid.

Toyota has not commented on whether or not this problem may have played a role in either of the incidents Leftlane reported that involved the Toyota Avalon and possible unintended acceleration. In the aforementioned report on the Toyota Avalon, an Avalon was observed performing at full throttle while the floor mat was removed and a Toyota mechanic physically moved the gas pedal with no effect ? making the cause of that incident unlikely to be related to this latest recall.

Since 2009, Toyota has recalled 5.5 million vehicles concerning unintended acceleration issues.

So the specifications of accelerator pedal mechanisms of US-built Toyotas are different to those built everywhere else in the world? Unlikely, unless Toyota indulges itself in some highly obscure tweaking for different markets. If anything, it's a faulty part from a supplier, or it's nothing.

But the article someone posted in a different thread was the guy threw it into neutral and stopped at the dealership right there. Smashing on the gas pedal did nothing to change the revving.

Maybe there's some defect in the drive-by-wire system. Sometimes, there's something to be said about good old fashioned throttle cables.

Quote from: omicron on January 22, 2010, 12:00:57 AM
So the specifications of accelerator pedal mechanisms of US-built Toyotas are different to those built everywhere else in the world? Unlikely, unless Toyota indulges itself in some highly obscure tweaking for different markets. If anything, it's a faulty part from a supplier, or it's nothing.

Whether it's a part made by a third party for Toyota or made by Toyota makes no difference.  The end result is a part in a Toyota built vehicle is defective.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 22, 2010, 04:42:29 AM
But the article someone posted in a different thread was the guy threw it into neutral and stopped at the dealership right there. Smashing on the gas pedal did nothing to change the revving.

So, now they have 3 problems with the excellerator mechanism.  The Floor mats, the actuator and a sticky gas pedal.  I wonder what the real problem is.

I've noticed that it seems to only affect the Camry-based vehicles.


Seems like only ES'es, Avalons, RX's, Highlanders and Camrys are affected.

Huh, interesting.  I've seen only one failure of a DBW pedal mechanism and it was actually a redundancy failure - basically one potentiometer failed, so the PCM went into limp-home mode - but other than sticking throttle plates due to crap building up I've never seen an actual sticking throttle issue.

Why not put a heavier spring on the pedal?

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 22, 2010, 04:42:29 AM
But the article someone posted in a different thread was the guy threw it into neutral and stopped at the dealership right there. Smashing on the gas pedal did nothing to change the revving.

One possible explanation is always going to be coincidence. That's becoming increasingly unlikely of course, but it's not as if other automakers don't have isolated acceleration issues.

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2010, 06:46:45 AM
So, now they have 3 problems with the excellerator mechanism.  The Floor mats, the actuator and a sticky gas pedal.  I wonder what the real problem is.

I'm still seeing shotgun approach to quell a PR problem.

Again, there has yet to be one shred of data or evidence for root cause (at least publicly).

Well I doubt Toyota would go to the expense and incur the potential bad PR of announcing a recall just because they had nothing better to do on January 21, 2010.  The manufacturer obviously believes there is a problem. 

Quote from: Byteme on January 22, 2010, 06:12:01 AM
Whether it's a part made by a third party for Toyota or made by Toyota makes no difference.  The end result is a part in a Toyota built vehicle is defective.

No matter who made the part, it was engineered by Toyota.

Quote from: Byteme on January 22, 2010, 08:45:37 AM
Well I doubt Toyota would go to the expense and incur the potential bad PR of announcing a recall just because they had nothing better to do on January 21, 2010.  The manufacturer obviously believes there is a problem. 

The counter to that would be that Toyota is addressing a PR rather than engineering problem.

Quote from: ifcar on January 22, 2010, 09:34:28 AM
The counter to that would be that Toyota is addressing a PR rather than engineering problem.

Given their history of denying problems in the face of strong evidence to the contrary (think sludge) I doubt that's the case.

Quote from: HEMI666 on January 22, 2010, 09:32:06 AM
No matter who made the part, it was engineered by Toyota.

I was going to say that as well, but I think some parts maybe speced by Toyota but the acutal engineering may be by an outside firm.  

Regardless, though, I think we agree it's Toyota's probem to fix.

Quote from: HEMI666 on January 22, 2010, 09:32:06 AM
No matter who made the part, it was engineered by Toyota.

I like that Toyota didn't rush to blame someone else (go Ford/Firestone!!) but said it's their responsibility.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 22, 2010, 10:12:17 AM
I like that Toyota didn't rush to blame someone else (go Ford/Firestone!!) but said it's their responsibility.

Tires that come apart at highway speeds is the fault of the tire manufacturer though.

Quote from: HEMI666 on January 22, 2010, 11:32:29 AM
Tires that come apart at highway speeds is the fault of the tire manufacturer though.

That seems somewhat different though since Ford speced an excessively low tire pressure.  Tire failure due to under-inflation isn't really the tire maker's fault, IMO.

Quote from: R-inge on January 22, 2010, 12:14:25 PM
That seems somewhat different though since Ford speced an excessively low tire pressure.  Tire failure due to under-inflation isn't really the tire maker's fault, IMO.

Then the tire manufacturer should have said, "they ain't gonna hold up at those low pressures." But they wanted their buck, so they said, "sure, we'll make anything you want."

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 22, 2010, 10:12:17 AM
I like that Toyota didn't rush to blame someone else (go Ford/Firestone!!) but said it's their responsibility.

Two points...

1/  Goodyears on the same vehicles made to the same spec had a spotless safety record.
2/  NHTSA investigation of real world accident data showed that the SUVs in question were no more likely to roll over than any other SUV.

As well, Ford took it upon themselves to replace all 13 million Firestone tires on their SUVs, not just the ones recalled.  Firestone was fighting for theirs lives and acted like asses.

During the 'sludge' espisode, Toyota blamed their customers.

may I rescind my post then?

I rememberd Ford and Firestone arguing and arguing over the issue, but I didn't realize it really was just Firestone.

Toyota seems like they're throwing fixes at it as fast as possible to keep good PR, but I don't believe it's the mechanicals of the pedal mechanism!?.....

Quote from: VTEC_Inside on January 15, 2010, 07:13:57 PM
The plot thickens...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-without-floor-mat.html

Curious: the Matrix is involved in the recall but not the Vibe?  Weren't they built at the same plant and are essentially the same car?  Makes you wonder if GM did something different to the Vibe that Toyota didn't do to the Matrix..odd to say the least.

Quote from: Schadenfreude on January 23, 2010, 01:52:22 AM
Curious: the Matrix is involved in the recall but not the Vibe?  Weren't they built at the same plant and are essentially the same car?  Makes you wonder if GM did something different to the Vibe that Toyota didn't do to the Matrix..odd to say the least.

Built at different plants -- the Vibe alongside the Corolla at NUMMI and the Matrix in Canada.

Quote from: ifcar on January 23, 2010, 05:10:44 AM
Built at different plants -- the Vibe alongside the Corolla at NUMMI and the Matrix in Canada.

But the Corolla was recalled and the Vibe wasn't; what gives?  :huh:

Quote from: Schadenfreude on January 23, 2010, 10:33:36 PM
But the Corolla was recalled and the Vibe wasn't; what gives?  :huh:

One theory: Toyota has a PR disaster on its hands and GM doesn't, and thus doesn't see the need to take any action to reassure people that it's working on a problem.

Things are heating up...

Toyota suspends sale of eight models (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2010/01/toyota_suspends.html)

Toyota?s recall problems just keep getting worse. Toyota said today that it will suspend sales of the eight models that the company stated it would recall on Jan. 21 due to isolated incidents of a sticking accelerator pedal. A recall is one thing, but when a company decides to stop selling the cars, it?s quite another. Bob Carter, Toyota division general manager and a group vice president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, said in a statement that the company wanted to stop sales until a remedy is found.

Recall that on Jan. 21, Toyota said it would recall 2.3 million vehicles that could potentially have a problem. They are the 2009 through 2010 RAV4, 2009 through 2010 Corolla, 2009 through 2010 Matrix, 2005 through 2010 Avalon, some 2007 through 2010 Camry models, 2010 Highlander, 2007 through 2010 Tundra and the 2008 through 2010 Sequoia.


See the link for more information...

Dang, I was just about to post that...

Great time to be a speeder and own a Toyota, as much of an oxymoron as that may be.

Everything but the minivan???

Do any of the Lexus models share drivetrain/components with those models?

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 26, 2010, 05:04:59 PM
Things are heating up...

Toyota suspends sale of eight models (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2010/01/toyota_suspends.html)

Toyota?s recall problems just keep getting worse. Toyota said today that it will suspend sales of the eight models that the company stated it would recall on Jan. 21 due to isolated incidents of a sticking accelerator pedal. A recall is one thing, but when a company decides to stop selling the cars, it?s quite another. Bob Carter, Toyota division general manager and a group vice president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, said in a statement that the company wanted to stop sales until a remedy is found.

Recall that on Jan. 21, Toyota said it would recall 2.3 million vehicles that could potentially have a problem. They are the 2009 through 2010 RAV4, 2009 through 2010 Corolla, 2009 through 2010 Matrix, 2005 through 2010 Avalon, some 2007 through 2010 Camry models, 2010 Highlander, 2007 through 2010 Tundra and the 2008 through 2010 Sequoia.


See the link for more information...

So Jalopnik posts that one of the assembly lines that is suspended is the Camry line at the Subaru plant in Indiana.  Is there any possibility that the accelerator problem be found in any of the Subaru models made there?  I'm unclear as to what parts Toyota and Subaru share, if any.

Quote from: MaxPower on January 26, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
So Jalopnik posts that one of the assembly lines that is suspended is the Camry line at the Subaru plant in Indiana.  Is there any possibility that the accelerator problem be found in any of the Subaru models made there?  I'm unclear as to what parts Toyota and Subaru share, if any.

Toyota is just using that plant's capacity. The cars aren't related.

Quote from: MaxPower on January 26, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
So Jalopnik posts that one of the assembly lines that is suspended is the Camry line at the Subaru plant in Indiana.  Is there any possibility that the accelerator problem be found in any of the Subaru models made there?  I'm unclear as to what parts Toyota and Subaru share, if any.

I don't believe they share any. Toyota doesn't actually own a majority share of Subaru.

Toyota is leasing the part of the Subaru facility in Lafayette, Indiana that was left vacant when production of the Isuzu Rodeo ended a few years ago.  Toyota couldn't build enough Camrys at its Georgetown, Kentucky plant and Subaru had excess capacity, so a deal was struck.  This deal was made before Toyota bought GM's shares in Subaru, IIRC.


Madman of the People

A recall of 2.3 million cars costs $1,012,000 in stamps alone.

Can we estimate how long the fix for each car will take and labor cost?  I figure $100 an hour for labor, but depending on how long each fix takes, the costs could vary wildly.

If you have a quarter hour fix, you have a cost of  $57,500,000.00.
30 minutes:  $115,000,000.00
1 hour:   $230,000,000.00

Add in lost revenue due to the sales stoppage.....who thinks this is still just a PR move?

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=21097.msg1253469#msg1253469 date=1264602043
who thinks this is still just a PR move?

In the end, everything is PR.
If they don't fix the cars and more people die, then the entire brand tanks. Plus they'd get sued up and down the ying-yang...

I was talking about this with a friend- we need to IMMEDIATELY market a killswitch to the fuelpump, charge $200-300 to install it. And make bazillions off id10t drivers....

There is no way they would do this if it wasn't a problem.  This costs way too much money for a little minor PR.

ahh the good old gross overexageration Ford Explorer / Firestone mentality has struck again in the auto world  :popcorn:

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 09:50:58 AM
There is no way they would do this if it wasn't a problem.  This costs way too much money for a little minor PR.

+1
I don't think it's anything mechanical. I think it's computer/software related.

This is hilarious. Good job people, way to blow a "problem" out of proportion.

The funniest part about this is Toyota apologists rushing to defend their favourite automaker. "Toyota is a great company, they're being proactive about it and making sure people are safe! If this was FORD we'd have another Pinto situation, with THOUSANDS of people DEAD because the company was more concerned about their bottom line!"

:rolleyes: :lol:

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 27, 2010, 10:20:33 AM
+1
I don't think it's anything mechanical. I think it's computer/software related.

Well, everything is sensors these days.  Sounds like a bad batch of sensors.

Damn this is a disaster for them.  How are the mainstream press in the US reporting this?

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on January 27, 2010, 10:30:55 AM
Damn this is a disaster for them.  How are the mainstream press in the US reporting this?

Well, I'm in Canada and the radio talk show I listen to everyday just finished a segment on it.

i heard is mockingly mentioned on 2 different morning shows this morning

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on January 27, 2010, 10:30:55 AM
Damn this is a disaster for them.  How are the mainstream press in the US reporting this?

I saw a breaking news alert on my local news about it.

NHTSA reveals Toyota was legally obligated to halt sales of recalled vehicles
01/27/2010, 11:14 AM
BY DREW JOHNSON

   
Following Toyota?s initial recall of 3.8 million vehicles in late 2009 for unintended acceleration, the Japanese automaker released a statement claiming ?that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver?s floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured.? That statement has been proven to be false, with the automaker halting sales and production of 8 models.

Although Toyota?s PR department has spun the situation to imply the company stopped sales and production of vehicle affected on its own accord, David Strickland, administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, has revealed Toyota was legally obligated to stop selling models involved in the company?s latest recall.

Strickland labeled Toyota?s decision as the ?legally and morally correct thing to do,? according to The Detroit News.

Although Toyota is now following the letter of the law, the company was slow to react on its latest recall of 2.3 million vehicles. Per the rules and regulations of the NHTSA, Toyota should have immediately stopped sales of vehicles involved in the recall, but continued to sell potentially faulty vehicles for another 5 days.

The fallout from Toyota?s 8 model, 6.6 million unit recall mess remains to be seen, but the outlook does not look good. Toyota was once the pillar of reliability and quality, but now appears to be struggling under the strain of becoming the world?s largest automaker. Toyota was optimistic it could increase sales by 6 percent this year, but that goal will be difficult given U.S. Toyota dealers have virtually no products to sell.

I told my dad about this, and the first thing he said was "You were right", as I'd spoken over and over about the rise and fall of quality inverse to volume. 

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 10:33:53 AM
Well, I'm in Canada and the radio talk show I listen to everyday just finished a segment on it.

Citytv here in Calgary had a reporter reporting live from a Toyota dealership during the morning news.

I've always noticed something wrong with the Toyotas I've driven previously, I guess this explains it.  The ones I've driven all had problems with the accelerator where it didn't slow down fast enough when you're off the accelerator.  I've always wondered why people would've bought these cars with the accelerators like that.. but people did.. I guess they're saying it's faulty now.

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 11:42:22 AM
NHTSA reveals Toyota was legally obligated to halt sales of recalled vehicles
01/27/2010, 11:14 AM
BY DREW JOHNSON

 

I was gonna' say... :huh:

The other ignominious aspect is that...
Toyota had been aware of issues with the pedals for more than two years but in June 2008 declared reports of sticky pedals were a "drivability," rather than a safety, issue.  As part of the halt in sales, Toyota will halt production at five North American assembly plants, and reduce production at an engine plant in Alabama.

The key issue is that in this recall, Toyota hadn't found a fix.


from http://detnews.com/article/20100127/AUTO01/1270400/1148/Toyota-halts-sales-of-recalled-models/U.S.--Toyota-was-legally-required-to-stop-selling-models (http://detnews.com/article/20100127/AUTO01/1270400/1148/Toyota-halts-sales-of-recalled-models/U.S.--Toyota-was-legally-required-to-stop-selling-models)

According to reports, there have been unintended accelleration problems with Toyotas since they first introduced their DBW system 10 years ago.  All this may be an attempt to prevent a recall of all such vehicles sold over that period of time.

ironically, toyota yesterday revealed a sales forecast of 8% growth for this year... guess the beancounters weren't watching the news  :facepalm:

Could this break Toyota in the US (or at least reduce their domination of the market)?

From the Wall Street Journal (I put some interesting bits in bold):


Toyota Motor Corp.'s drastic sales halt in the U.S. is a nightmare come true for Akio Toyoda, who took the helm last year at the world's largest auto maker, founded by his grandfather.

Mr. Toyoda, who set out last year as Toyota president to overhaul the way the company designs, manufactures and sells cars, had been worried for some time that a backlash such as the one it is now facing with the quality-related debacle would hit Toyota sooner or later, according to a longtime associate of the executive.

A senior Toyota executive reached by the phone Wednesday declined to say how long Toyota had known about possible defects that may have caused its vehicles to accelerate unintentionally, prompting a massive recall.

"That [timeframe] is a very important point, and it could become a very difficult problem for us legally," said the executive. "The issue is likely to become a huge problem for us."

Toyota still smarts from the trade-related bashing it withstood in the 1980s and 1990s and the 53-year-old Mr. Toyoda had made several moves to protect itself from new criticism, some of them before he officially became president in June 2009.

In one such effort, he decided early last year to call back a former executive, Yoshi Inaba, from retirement, and dispatched the executive, who is fluent in English and holds an MBA from Northwestern University, to New York to take charge of Toyota's American operations. Mr. Inaba, who is considered bicultural with a reputation for being comfortable in the U.S., was given the task of managing relationships with regulators and politicians in Washington.

Mr. Toyoda also has been trying to forge closer ties with Ford Motor Co. in the U.S., according to the longtime associate of Mr. Toyoda. Mr. Toyoda and other top company executives view such a relationship as "insurance" against political problems.

How Mr. Toyoda will steer Toyota through its latest crisis?now threatening the reputation of a company that has long has been viewed as the leader in automotive quality?will likely decide his legacy at his namesake company.

In a news conference immediately after taking over last June, Mr. Toyoda acknowledged that in its all-out push to become the world's largest car maker Toyota drifted away from its core value of focusing on the customer.

"I do not think we were wrong to expand our business to meet the needs of customers around the world but we may have stretched more than we should have," said Mr. Toyoda then.

Despite the reputation for being candid, Mr. Toyoda also has been gaining a reputation in Japan as being elusive. Some Japanese reporters and editors covering the company even accuse him of hiding from the media. He has given only a handful public speeches and news conferences since becoming Toyota president and rarely meets with reporters individually.

Mr. Toyoda wasn't available to comment for this article.

Those who know Mr. Toyoda said the executive isn't avoiding the media or public appearances. Rather, he is trying to spend more time in the field, as he tries to embrace a traditional Toyota practice called genchi genbutsu, a leadership maxim that boils down to getting out of the office and visiting the source of the problem, according to those people.

The longtime associate said Mr. Toyoda's effort to cultivate closer ties with Ford began taking urgency last year. Well before he officially took over the company in June from his predecessor, Katsuaki Watanabe, it was becoming increasingly clear that General Motors wanted to end a vehicle-assembly joint venture the two companies ran in California.

After ending the close relationship with GM, which Toyota forged through the manufacturing joint venture, called New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. or Nummi, Mr. Toyoda felt a bit unprotected politically in the U.S., according to this person. He wanted to fill the void with Ford, the person said.

In September, according to this person, Mr. Toyoda and Ford CEO Alan Mulally arranged to meet in San Francisco. The two executives "talked about how Toyota and Ford could cooperate to form a close relationship... and agreed to cooperate in a very general sense," the person said.

No specific deals were hammered out at the September meeting, but Messrs. Toyoda and Mulally "identified the environmental area as a possible way of cooperation," he said, noting that the two companies could help one another in green-car technologies, by jointly developing and manufacturing gasoline-electric hybrids and plug-in electric cars.

Mr. Toyoda wasn't available to comment about the September. Mr. Mulally declined to comment.

The two executives left the meeting, according to the person, agreeing to meet again.

Quote from: r0tor on January 27, 2010, 12:53:35 PM
ironically, toyota yesterday revealed a sales forecast of 8% growth for this year... guess the beancounters weren't watching the news  :facepalm:

:lol:

This is a disaster for Toyota. The engineering problem is probably easy to fix. Infinitely more difficult will be dealing with the law suits & prosecutions, "What did you know and when?"

C&D on runaway Toyotas (it's in the March print version):
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

Funny enough, I got an email last night from the local Toyota dealer- prices got a SUPER DUPER SALE!!!!!!
Corollas as low as $11,999, 4banger Camrys for $14,999
I guess they were trying to beat the inevitable shutdown?!

And apparently the Sienna and Prius have been developed using totally different parts/ computers/ systems?

This is gonna hurt Toyota more then I ever thought.  All of the rental car agencies are pulling all Toyota vehicles out of their fleets.

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 05:06:46 PM
This is gonna hurt Toyota more then I ever thought.  All of the rental car agencies are pulling all Toyota vehicles out of their fleets.

"Good news! We reduced fleet sales!"

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 05:06:46 PM
This is gonna hurt Toyota more then I ever thought.  All of the rental car agencies are pulling all Toyota vehicles out of their fleets.

I thought rental companies only used shit cars that were unsaleable to sentient beings.

Quote from: Morris Minor on January 27, 2010, 06:07:05 PM
I thought rental companies only used shit cars that were unsaleable to sentient beings.

National alone is pulling 20,000 Toyotas from their fleet.  I guess Ford or GM will benefit from that.

I wonder if the Camry will be usurped as the highest selling car this year.

Report: Toyota has accelerator pedal fix in-hand, production resumption still uncertain
01/27/2010, 4:07 PM
BY DREW JOHNSON

 
Production of eight Toyota models has ground to a halt as the result of a 2.3 million unit recall, but the Japanese automaker says it has designed a replacement part for the affected vehicles. Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles last week due to a potentially faulty accelerator pedal mechanism.

According to Automotive News, Toyota has completed the design of the replacement part, with the first units believed to be in transit to some Toyota factories. Toyota ? along with parts maker CTS Corp. ? finished the design earlier this week.

Although Toyota now has a solution to the problem in-hand, the company is far from out of the woods. Due to the sheer size of the recall, it could be months before replacement parts can be made for all vehicle involved in the recall, potentially costing the Japanese automakers hundreds of thousands of sales.

?We have to produce more than 2 million pedals,? a source close to the situation told Automotive News. ?That takes a long time. That?s more than we can produce in a year.?

Toyota?s production halt is schedule to continue through February 5th, but could be extended if the replacement parts do not become widely available. An even bigger headache could be on the way for Toyota as it appears its latest recall could cover vehicles in a number of global markets.

Rumor has it that Enterprise has pulled all of its Toyota products from the fleet. This means when I show up at work Friday, I won't have to drive any of them, Prius included, even though it's not recalled.

In summary: :rockon:

Quote from: the Teuton on January 27, 2010, 10:49:03 PM
Rumor has it that Enterprise has pulled all of its Toyota products from the fleet. This means when I show up at work Friday, I won't have to drive any of them, Prius included, even though it's not recalled.

In summary: :rockon:

What, the rest of the rental dreck is more appealing?

I hope Toyota never recovers from this.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 28, 2010, 12:48:30 AM
I hope Toyota never recovers from this.

y?

Quote from: SVT666 on January 27, 2010, 09:12:28 PM
Report: Toyota has accelerator pedal fix in-hand, production resumption still uncertain
01/27/2010, 4:07 PM
BY DREW JOHNSON

 
Production of eight Toyota models has ground to a halt as the result of a 2.3 million unit recall, but the Japanese automaker says it has designed a replacement part for the affected vehicles. Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles last week due to a potentially faulty accelerator pedal mechanism.

According to Automotive News, Toyota has completed the design of the replacement part, with the first units believed to be in transit to some Toyota factories. Toyota ? along with parts maker CTS Corp. ? finished the design earlier this week.

Although Toyota now has a solution to the problem in-hand, the company is far from out of the woods. Due to the sheer size of the recall, it could be months before replacement parts can be made for all vehicle involved in the recall, potentially costing the Japanese automakers hundreds of thousands of sales.

?We have to produce more than 2 million pedals,? a source close to the situation told Automotive News. ?That takes a long time. That?s more than we can produce in a year.?

Toyota?s production halt is schedule to continue through February 5th, but could be extended if the replacement parts do not become widely available. An even bigger headache could be on the way for Toyota as it appears its latest recall could cover vehicles in a number of global markets.

Anybody want to bet on where the first shipments go?  I'm betting on the factories and dealerships to build new cars and retrofit dealer inventory for sales, not the dealerhsips to repair vehicles already in the hands of consumers.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 28, 2010, 12:48:30 AM
I hope Toyota never recovers from this.

(http://www.nextconceptcars.com/wp-content/toy7785.jpg)

UPDATE 1-Ford halts production of China van with CTS pedal

* China JV halts production Thursday to study pedal

* JV produced 1,663 Transit Classic vans with CTS pedal

* CTS began supplying pedals to Ford in December

DETROIT, Jan 28 (Reuters) - Ford Motor Co (F.N) and its joint venture partner Jiangling Motors Corp (000550.SZ) halted China production of full-sized Transit Classic diesel commercial vans equipped with CTS Corp (CTS.N) pedals, the automakers said on Thursday.

CTS, which is at the center of a massive Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) recall over potentially faulty accelerator pedals, only began to supply pedals to the commercial van in December and does not supply pedals for any other Ford vehicle, Ford spokesman Said Deep said.

There were 1,663 vehicles produced in China for the Chinese markets using the pedals and production was halted on Thursday, Deep said, adding that it was unclear how many had been delivered to customers or dealers.

The design and engineering of the pedals is unique to Ford, but appears similar to that of the pedal supplied to Toyota and is being studied, Deep said.

In a conference call on Thursday after Ford posted a 2009 profit, its first full-year profit since 2005, Ford Chief Executive Alan Mulally said he believed the China production halt was an isolated incident.

Quote
Massive Toyota recall spreads to China and Europe


Toyota?s massive recall of more than seven million vehicles in the United States ? sparked by reliability problems with accelerator pedals ? is to be extended to Europe and China, the company revealed today.

The announcements came hours after the company added a further 1.09 million vehicles to the tally of cars involved in its US recall. It is thought that at least 75,000 vehicles will be recalled in China.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article7005877.ece

Quote from: EtypeJohn on January 28, 2010, 06:46:19 AM
Anybody want to bet on where the first shipments go?  I'm betting on the factories and dealerships to build new cars and retrofit dealer inventory for sales, not the dealerhsips to repair vehicles already in the hands of consumers.

Well, unless they want to turn their disaster into their funeral, they will first deal with the vehicles that are out there on the streets. So I'm betting on their survival instinct.

It's difficult to conjure up millions and millions of throttle assemblies in a few weeks - but they are going to have to do so. As we speak, assembly plants are tooling up all over China  :devil:

Quote from: Morris Minor on January 28, 2010, 10:27:49 AM
Well, unless they want to turn their disaster into their funeral, they will first deal with the vehicles that are out there on the streets. So I'm betting on their survival instinct.

It's difficult to conjure up millions and millions of throttle assemblies in a few weeks - but they are going to have to do so. As we speak, assembly plants are tooling up all over China  :devil:

Actually it's 6 plants across North America that are making the new pedal. :ohyeah:

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 28, 2010, 04:46:41 AM
y?

It might force them to make interesting cars instead of producing boring crap that people buy only because of the reputation.

Quote from: MX793 on January 28, 2010, 04:38:52 PM
It might force them to make interesting cars instead of producing boring crap that people buy only because of the reputation.

It won't matter if the cars are interesting if people are scared to even drive them. They need to re-establish their reputation.

Thinking about this... I have never seen a Toyota driven at more than what looks to be 1/8 throttle opening.

Quote from: Morris Minor on January 28, 2010, 06:35:04 PM
Thinking about this... I have never seen a Toyota driven at more than what looks to be 1/8 throttle opening.

You've never seen me drive our Camry.   :devil:

Quote from: CJ on January 28, 2010, 07:07:28 PM

You've never seen me drive our Camry.   :devil:

So.....it's 1/16?


:lol:

:)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g225/pipejaimes/Random/MovingForward.png)

Quote from: VTEC_Inside on January 28, 2010, 07:34:22 PM
:)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g225/pipejaimes/Random/MovingForward.png)

:lol: :lol:

:lol:

Further to the Ford involvement...Parts supplier ramping up pedal output (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/parts-supplier-ramping-up-pedal-output/article1448216/)

Repeatedly stressing that the pedals were made according to Toyota's specifications, he said he doubted his company would face legal liability or suffer major financial losses from the gas pedal fallout.

Still, his company remained front-and-centre Thursday. Not only did Toyota expand its pedal recall into Europe and China, but Ford Motor Co. halted production of a commercial vehicle it builds as part of a joint venture in China because it uses CTS gas pedals. (The vehicle in question is not sold in Canada.)

Asked about Ford, Mr. Khilnani said the problem is strictly limited to Toyota, and that his firm is meeting with Ford to reassure the company. He said he expects similar discussions with other car makers.

?There isn't any crosspollination of this pedal with other pedals,? Mr. Khilnani said. ?They are all designed to their specifications. All the designs are very different.? CTS has between 16 and 20 per cent of the global market for accelerator pedals, and also supplies them to Chrysler, Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi, he said.

House schedules Toyota recall hearing for next month
01/28/2010, 5:43 PM
BY DREW JOHNSON

   
Adding to Toyota?s ever-growing mountain of trouble, the United States House of Representatives announced on Thursday it will hold a hearing next month to discuss the automaker recent recalls and growing consumer complaints of unintended acceleration.

Scheduled for February 25th, the hearing will be used ?to examine the persistent consumer complaints of sudden unintended acceleration in vehicles manufactured by the Toyota Motor Corporation.?

House Energy and Commerce chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., will oversee the hearing. ?Like many consumers, I am concerned by the seriousness and scope of Toyota?s recent recall announcements,? Waxman told The Detroit News. ?I look forward to learning more about the steps Toyota is taking to address safety defects, and I hope that the automaker will continue to cooperate with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to get unsafe vehicles off our roads.?

Toyota has found itself at the center of a firestorm following two massive U.S. recalls. The Japanese automaker recalled 5.35 million vehicles late last year due to floor mat issues, and announced a 2.3 million vehicle recall last month. The latest recall forced Toyota to halt sales of eight of its most popular models.

So all of a sudden, a shitload of Toyota vehicles are suddenly accelerating? :huh:

Quote from: giant_mtb on January 28, 2010, 08:55:53 PM
So all of a sudden, a shitload of Toyota vehicles are suddenly accelerating? :huh:

I believe the Rolling Stones were once quoted as saying "Once you start me up, I'll never stop." Apparently, neither will Toyotas.

Why is the House involved now?  Also, why was the Senate involved in the baseball steroid hearings?

They want to feel important.  It's all about ego.

And in the news today an additional 1.8 million cars in Europe are recalled as well:  Note the part I put in bold.  just as I suspected, Toyota is weighing whether to use the first parts to install in the production line or in new cars on the dealer lots.  What about the poor schmucks who put their trust in Toyota and bought those shit boxes.  I'd expect Toyota to take care of them first.

BRUSSELS (AP) -- Toyota's recall of eight models in Europe over faulty gas pedals will involve up to 1.8 million cars, the world's largest automaker said Friday.

It said it will recall the Yaris -- its biggest seller in the region -- Corolla, Aygo, iQ, Auris, Verso, Avensis and the RAV4 sports utility vehicle.

The move extends an embarrassing recall that has already spread to more than 2.4 million vehicles on three continents, threatening to undermine the reputation of the world's top auto maker as a manufacturer of safe, durable vehicles.

A company statement said that because it was still checking how many cars were involved it could not give a more precise number. No Lexus and no other Toyota models are affected, it said.

Tadashi Arashima, the president and CEO of Toyota Motor Corp.'s European operations, said a problem with a gas pedal that can stick when partly depressed or return slowly to the idle position "only occurs in very rare circumstances."

Toyota said it had "identified a remedy for this issue" and it will communicate that to all customers as soon as it has finished evaluations. It gave no more details.

It said only a limited number of incidents had been reported in Europe and it was not aware of any accidents caused by the problem. Toyota factories are already using different parts and "therefore there is no need or intention to stop production in Europe," it said.

The company on Tuesday suspended U.S. sales of eight models -- including the Camry, America's top-selling car -- and told Chinese authorities that it would recall RAV4 vehicles made in China.

Elkhart, Indiana-based CTS Corp., which made the parts, is cranking out redesigned gas pedal assemblies that fix the problem, which is caused by condensation around an arm attached to the pedal and springs that send the pedal back to the idle position.

Toyota has said it is weighing up repairing the pedals or replacing them -- or whether the new pedals will go first to factories to production of new models can resume or straight to dealers to modify new cars on their lots.

Also this week, Toyota announced the recall of 1.09 million vehicles in the United States over concerns that floor mats could bend across gas pedals, causing sudden acceleration.

CTS also makes pedals for Honda Motor Co., Mitsubishi Motors, Nissan Motor Co. and Ford Motor Co. in China, but the company said pedals made for those manufacturers don't have the same design. Still, Ford on Thursday halted production of some full-sized commercial vehicles in China because they contain CTS gas pedals.

Toyota is not a major player in Europe, where it ranked No. 8 by sales last year, with a 5 percent share of the market. Its models have fared badly as customers were nudged toward smaller fuel-efficient models by cash-for-clunkers government handouts.

Its bestseller in the region is the Yaris, which shifted some 215,921 units last year. The company sold 730,831 cars in the 27-nation European Union, Norway and Iceland in 2009 -- down 4.7 percent from a year earlier. Sales of the luxury Lexus line fell by more than a quarter.

     

Like I said when the Lexus first crashed, it's more than just floormats. Japanese engineers are human, just like everybody else.

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 28, 2010, 08:00:25 PM
Further to the Ford involvement...Parts supplier ramping up pedal output (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/parts-supplier-ramping-up-pedal-output/article1448216/)

Repeatedly stressing that the pedals were made according to Toyota's specifications, he said he doubted his company would face legal liability or suffer major financial losses from the gas pedal fallout.

Still, his company remained front-and-centre Thursday. Not only did Toyota expand its pedal recall into Europe and China, but Ford Motor Co. halted production of a commercial vehicle it builds as part of a joint venture in China because it uses CTS gas pedals. (The vehicle in question is not sold in Canada.)

Asked about Ford, Mr. Khilnani said the problem is strictly limited to Toyota, and that his firm is meeting with Ford to reassure the company. He said he expects similar discussions with other car makers.

?There isn't any crosspollination of this pedal with other pedals,? Mr. Khilnani said. ?They are all designed to their specifications. All the designs are very different.? CTS has between 16 and 20 per cent of the global market for accelerator pedals, and also supplies them to Chrysler, Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi, he said.

like anyone in china cares about consumer safety...  :lol:

Quote from: r0tor on January 29, 2010, 11:10:10 AM
like anyone in china cares about consumer safety...  :lol:

There are some people here who think Chinese cars will be safe to drive.

Quote from: Raza  on January 28, 2010, 09:44:10 PM
Why is the House involved now?  Also, why was the Senate involved in the baseball steroid hearings?

Seriously. It's absolutely idiotic. They have no clue about these issues, they should stay out. It's not their job.

Quote from: hotrodalex on January 29, 2010, 04:08:18 PM
Seriously. It's absolutely idiotic. They have no clue about these issues, they should stay out. It's not their job.

Same thing happened with the Ford/Firestone debacle. :huh:

They are the peoples' representatives.  If there's a safety issue that escalates out of control, they should be concerned.  Toyota has been screwing around on this for years.  Maybe they'll take it seriously now the government is involved.  There's still the other issue, DBW failure, that they're trying to skirt around.

More than 10% of our total fleet (or about 15 Toyotas/Vibes) were sitting on our lot today because Enterprise Corporate told all of the branches to ground the cars.

It was insane. It looked like a Toyota dealership.

Quote

The recall does not affect Toyota vehicles in Australia.

Toyota Australia issued a statement saying Toyota vehicles it sells in Australia "are not affected by the recalls announced in the North American market".

"Accelerator pedals for Toyota vehicles sold in Australia, and those manufactured in Australia for export, are provided by a different supplier," the company said.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html)

This is why smart people drive RHD cars. :praise:

There is still something that puzzles me regarding the sticking gas pedal situation; extracted from the link supplied by VTEC_Inside in the other thread...The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-without-floor-mat.html (http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-without-floor-mat.html)

This suggests that the WOT really had nothing to do with a sticky gas pedal unless the mechanizm in question operates independently of the actual lever; meaning that it is likely the actuator. 

Quote from: hotrodalex on January 29, 2010, 04:08:18 PM
Seriously. It's absolutely idiotic. They have no clue about these issues, they should stay out. It's not their job.

I think those words should be put on giant illuminated signs surrounding the Capitol Building & the White House.

So Toyota has sent out another fix:

http://jalopnik.com/5461198/toyota-announces-accelerator-pedal-fiery-death-fix

QuoteToyota's solution for current owners includes a precision-cut steel reinforcement bar being installed into the assembly that'll reduce the surface tension between the friction shoe and the adjoining surface. With this reinforcement in place, the excess friction that can cause the pedal to stick will supposedly be eliminated.

But it doesn't fix this guy's problem:

Quote
The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.

A class action lawsuit has been filed in Canadian Courts against Toyota and CTS (the manufacturer of the pedal).  I think this is opportunism at it's best.  Unless the "sticky" pedal has actually affected you, you should have no claim.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 01, 2010, 09:23:50 AM
A class action lawsuit has been filed in Canadian Courts against Toyota and CTS (the manufacturer of the pedal).  I think this is opportunism at it's best.  Unless the "sticky" pedal has actually affected you, you should have no claim.

Lawyers have splendid imaginations.  I'd be claiming reduced resale value. Which might be a very real issue.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 01, 2010, 09:23:50 AM
A class action lawsuit has been filed in Canadian Courts against Toyota and CTS (the manufacturer of the pedal).  I think this is opportunism at it's best.  Unless the "sticky" pedal has actually affected you, you should have no claim.

EMOTIONAL DISTRESS OMG!!!!!!!!

Quote from: omicron on January 30, 2010, 12:31:11 AM
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html)

This is why smart people drive RHD cars. :praise:

Except the RHD versions in the UK are also affected:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Toyota-iQ/247193/

And of course, the recall also extends to Europe:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/247149/

After apology, Toyota CEO drove away in Audi
02/01/2010, 12:51 PM
BY ANDREW GANZ

At an economic summit in Davos, Switzerland, Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda issued a seemingly heartfelt apology for the problems that led up to his automaker?s massive, unprecedented recall ? but the latest reports out of Europe say that Toyoda was spotted leaving the conference in a black Audi wagon.

The ABC News report doesn?t indicate what model Audi, nor does it confirm if Toyoda was behind the wheel or in a passenger seat.
It?s possible that the Audi was a rental car, although automakers are generally very careful about only renting their own products when traveling on company business. Likewise, automakers keep fleets of vehicles available for executive or marketing use in major areas; Toyota has a fleet stationed in Zurich.

Regardless, the lapse in vehicular judgement seems as uncharacteristic for Toyota as the quality and engineering gaffe that led to the recall in the first place.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 01, 2010, 11:19:49 AM
After apology, Toyota CEO drove away in Audi
a fleet stationed in Zurich.

I guess he didn't want to take a chance of soaring off the side of the mountain with a WOT at one of those hairpin turns with rock face on one side and a 900 foot drop on the other. :huh:

Apparently the fix is a simple shim - probably costs about $0.00002 per item. Cost to Toyota's reputation is incalculable.

Quote from: Submariner on February 01, 2010, 09:54:07 AM
EMOTIONAL DISTRESS OMG!!!!!!!!

I now feel great emotional distress every time I see a Toyota - I'm in mortal fear that one will slam into me. I wonder if I can join the class action.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 01, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
Lawyers have splendid imaginations.  I'd be claiming reduced resale value. Which might be a very real issue.

Quote from: Submariner on February 01, 2010, 09:54:07 AM
EMOTIONAL DISTRESS OMG!!!!!!!!

Don't forget the loss of use of the vehicle whilst waiting for the recall to be done.  Not to mention reimbursement for the rental car they had to get because they're afraid to drive their flaming deathtrap Toyota.  Damn, I should have been a lawyer!

Madman of the People

I drove a Toyota Jetta Corolla the other day after the recall was issued, and I'm still alive. :praise:

Quote from: ChrisV on February 01, 2010, 11:04:19 AM
Except the RHD versions in the UK are also affected:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Toyota-iQ/247193/

And of course, the recall also extends to Europe:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/247149/

Oh.

Quote from: omicron on January 30, 2010, 12:31:11 AM
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26654791-5005962,00.html)

This is why smart people drive Holden cars. :praise:

:praise:

Quote
Responding to the Camry as one example, since it's built both here [Australia] and in America, Breen confirmed that the products of the two countries source accelerator pedals from different suppliers. Furthermore, the design itself varies -- and that's why vehicles built in Australia and Japan are unaffected by this recall.

"The [accelerator pedal] that's provided in America is supplied by a manufacturer in Canada and the supplier of the pedal for the Australian market is the Japanese supplier -- so the design of the pedal is totally different from the one that they use in the United States," Breen reaffirmed.

"I've seen photographs, just workshop photographs of the two pedals and they are entirely different. They look like [the same] when you look at them, but when you look at the top part of the pedal and how the mechanism works, they're totally different."

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/toyota/toyota-softpedals-aussie-situation-18162 (http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/toyota/toyota-softpedals-aussie-situation-18162)

Well, there you go. Different pedal mechanisms. How random.

Quote from: omicron on February 02, 2010, 06:51:58 AM
http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/toyota/toyota-softpedals-aussie-situation-18162 (http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/toyota/toyota-softpedals-aussie-situation-18162)

Well, there you go. Different pedal mechanisms. How random.

"Asked for his response to the news emanating from the US that some of the crashes reportedly involving sudden and unforeseen acceleration were the result of software in the engine management system rather than necessarily faulty accelerator pedals, Breen explained that the jury was still out on that.

"All the tests that they've done in Japan and the US don't indicate that there's any link between the two -- and I think they're still looking into the ECU issue," he said.

"[The ECU investigation] was never resolved. They're still working on the incidents that occurred and what really did happen in those incidents."

Uh oh. "Pedalgate" has reached media saturation, and now the controversy has spilled over and metastasized into "People bitch about Prius brakes".
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyotas-new-problem-prius-brake-complaints-2010-02-02?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Under the microscope of the media hype, Toyota's super boned.

Quote from: Laconian on February 02, 2010, 07:58:48 PM
Uh oh. "Pedalgate" has reached media saturation, and now the controversy has spilled over and metastasized into "People bitch about Prius brakes".
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/toyotas-new-problem-prius-brake-complaints-2010-02-02?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Under the microscope of the media hype, Toyota's super boned.

Blame Apple.

Thank god I drive a Honda!

QuoteIn a report Wednesday, Kyodo elaborated that the issue involved the brakes temporarily stopping working on bumpy or slippery roads, and included one reported crash.

roughly translates to... "omfg my miracle car doesn't perform miracles when its slick out... screw you toyota!"

Quote from: r0tor on February 03, 2010, 05:57:50 AM
roughly translates to... "omfg my miracle car doesn't perform miracles when its slick out... screw you toyota!"

I heard on the news this morning there have been anumber of complaints in Japan and the US and there is the possibility that it is caused by interference from radar, cell phones or other electronic devices.  I wouldn't be to quick to dismiss the possibility of there actually being a problem.  

Edit:  Found this:

Toyota's Prius Problem
Published: Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 | 9:04 AM ET Text Size By: Phil LeBeau
CNBC Correspondent

Ever since Toyota [TM  75.90    -2.28  (-2.92%)   ] first addressed complaints about unintended acceleration last October, there have been a steady number of complaints from Prius owners. I've heard them from time to time and they basically amount to Prius owners saying their car suddenly sped up or the brakes didn't work properly.

But even as it recalls millions of cars and trucks, Toyota has always maintained there's no problem with the Prius.

Now Japan's Ministry of Transportation wants to make sure the gas-electric hybrid is safe. It's ordering Toyota to investigate a rash of complaints about braking problems with the Prius. Here in the U.S., the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received 102 complaints. Among those now questioning their Prius is Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak. He says his Prius unintentionally accelerates.

So does Toyota have a Prius problem?

If it does unintentionally accelerate like millions of other Toyota's, it creates an even bigger headache for the Japanese automaker. The recall for faulty gas pedals has focused on models built in North America. Cars and trucks build in Japan have been cleared by Toyota. That would change if the Prius models were found to unintentionally accelerate. That's because Toyota builds the Prius in Japan.

It's too early to know if the Prius complaints will force Toyota to expand its recalls. But as we've learned in the last few months, when there have been complaints it's often lead to something much bigger for Toyota.

There's a certain irony in tree-huggers wrapping their Priuses around the objects of their affection.

Report: Toyota only issued recall after tremendous pressure from federal officials
02/03/2010, 10:40 AM
BY DREW JOHNSON


Toyota officially announced the recall of 2.3 million vehicles for defective accelerator pedals on January 21, but a new report reveals that it took quite a bit of effort to convince the Japanese automaker it had a very serious problem.

Although Toyota?s latest recall was technically voluntary, it was the direct result of strong pressure from federal regulators. Toyota initially refused to acknowledge it had a possible safety issue, only issuing the recall after it was essentially forced to do so by the U.S. government.

?Since questions were first raised about possible safety defects, we have been pushing Toyota to take measures to protect consumers,? U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in a statement. ?While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point.?

In an interview with the Associated Press, LaHood added Toyota was ?a little safety deaf? and that federal officials had to fly to Tokyo late last year ?to remind Toyota management about its legal obligations.?

In fact, new information suggests Toyota knew about safety defects related to its accelerator pedal as far back as 2007. Toyota changed the design of the pedal twice, but never informed the NHTSA of any dangers.

Expect to hear more on the topic in the coming weeks as two hearings involving Toyota are scheduled for later this month.

Maybe that's why the Feds are holding hearings.  Toyota was doing everything it could not to fix the problem.

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on February 03, 2010, 01:07:08 AM
Thank god I drive a Honda!

What you drive doesn't make a difference, you'll crash it anyways.  :lol:

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 03, 2010, 06:58:21 AM
I heard on the news this morning there have been anumber of complaints in Japan and the US and there is the possibility that it is caused by interference from radar, cell phones or other electronic devices.  I wouldn't be to quick to dismiss the possibility of there actually being a problem. 

I would... eventhough ABS brakes have been around for almost 20 years now, the amount of "problems" reported to dealers for the "brakes not working when it snowed" ot "weird grinding sounds and no braking" is mind boggling

putting a spotlight on toyota is just putting a spotlight on the stupidity

Quote from: NomisR on February 03, 2010, 11:10:47 AM
What you drive doesn't make a difference, you'll crash it anyways.  :lol:

:lol:

This is getting stupid

QuoteConfusion at Toyota dealerships after brake recall
Buzz up! 5
Print
Peter Valdes-Dapena, senior writer, On Wednesday February 3, 2010, 5:31 pm EST
Toyota drivers are feeling mounting confusion and frustration as they attempt to fix their recalled cars. And Toyota dealers are under the gun as they face sometimes angry customers.

"It's just getting crazy," said Andy Phillips who heads the service department at Sandy Springs Toyota in Georgia. "Well, you know. I'm tired, the phones are exploding and, basically, I've had enough."

Toyota Motor Corp. has said it will begin sending dealers parts to make recall repairs this week with actual repairs expected to begin this weekend.

Some dealers now say they'll be ready to make repairs even earlier.

Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood inadvertently frightened many Toyota owners early Wednesday morning when he said, during a hearing on Capitol Hill, that any owner of a car affected by the recall should "stop driving it and take it to a dealer."

LaHood later corrected himself, saying that he only meant that owners should get their cars fixed as soon as possible. But the comment had already been widely reported by then.

"I was at the gym when that was announced and people were freaking out. They were on the treadmill. I can't drive my car, how am I going to get home?" said Lauren Fix, an independent auto writer and consultant.

Toyota released a statement Wednesday afternoon thanking LaHood for the clarification.

Toyota said that owners of vehicles involved in the most recent recall could safely continue to drive them since the problem develops gradually over time and, even in the worst case, is easy to bring under control by simply applying the brakes. In an extreme case drivers may need to shift the car into neutral.

But that advice has already failed to calm many owners who now fear their cars may run out of control.

"I got this beautiful car, now I'm afraid to drive it," said Maria Ciresi of Smithtown, New York. Ciresi owns a Toyota Corolla she bought in November.

After the recall Ciresi spoke to a Toyota Motor Corp. customer service agent who told her it was still safe to drive the car.

"I told her, 'Alright I'll drive the car, and I'll get killed and my children will own Toyota and you'll be first the first one to lose your job,'" she said.

Not every customer is as agitated as Ciresi. Laurie Roberts, a customer at Bay Ridge Toyota in Brooklyn, N.Y., described himself as a "Toyota guy."

Roberts owns a Highlander now and he said he plans to continue driving it until it gets fixed. He's owned seven Toyotas in the past.

Rick Doran, general manager at Arlington Toyota in Jacksonville, Florida, said his customers are mostly taking it all in stride.

"I would have expected it to be completely different than what it is," he said. "We've had people who are concerned, but once we explain what the repairs are going to be and let them know it's a voluntary recall they calm down."

Still, there are some worriers, he said.

"I had a lady yesterday that called me on the phone and just blasted me," he said. "She said she had a scratch on her car but didn't want to drive to the dealer because she didn't want the pedal to stick." Her car, it turned out, wasn't even part of the recall.

Doran's dealership will be ready to start making recall repairs as early as Wednesday night, he said.

Michael Ianelli, general manager of Bay Ridge Toyota in Brooklyn, N.Y., said his telephones are ringing constantly with customer calls. He sent a letter to his customers, a copy of which is posted at the dealership's Web site.

"Please know that this current news, however troubling, will be handled with the swiftness, precision and care that you have become accustomed to as a Toyota owner," the letter reads.

Toyota dealers are going to extremes to take care of customers.

Bob Carter, Toyota's sales administration manager, sent a letter to dealers on Tuesday thanking them for their efforts and urging more.

Dealers are extending their hours, he wrote, opening additional repair stations and offering car washes. In return, Toyota is paying dealers as much as $75,000, depending on their sales volume, to cover additional expenses caused by the recalls.

"Bottom line - Toyota dealers 'Get It,'" Carter wrote. "Toyota dealers already know the first and most critical step of rebuilding the confidence and trust of Toyota owners is the interaction and service they receive in your dealership."

Ciresi said the manager of her local Toyota dealer arranged for a dinner meeting at the dealership with customers.

"He's going to have to have earplugs in his ears," she sad, "because we're going to tell him what to do."

CNNMoney.com's Poppy Harlow, Aaron Smith and Blake Ellis and CNN's Debra Krajnak contributed to this report.

This goes to show how stupid people are and how paranoid they are about stupid little shit like this. 

"I was at the gym when that was announced and people were freaking out. They were on the treadmill. I can't drive my car, how am I going to get home?"

:lol:

This is out of control.

Not to take away from some of the seriousness with what's happening with some of Toyota's products, but I swear to GOD people will find any teeny tiny reason to go into mass panic mode over the smallest thing.

That article just makes me sad.

Quote from: Northlands on February 03, 2010, 06:36:09 PM
Not to take away from some of the seriousness with what's happening with some of Toyota's products, but I swear to GOD people will find any teeny tiny reason to go into mass panic mode over the smallest thing.

That article just makes me sad.

This is just filling the void in the media that was previously filled by H1N1. My manager was really, really riled up about H1N1. She drives a Sienna. I wonder if she's freaking out about that, too. :lol:

Tell her there's a vaccine for her van. Should make work a bit more liveable is freak out mode happens with her.  :partyon:

 :facepalm: Oh my god. Is there any wonder why I don't like humans.

If I drove a Toyota, I'd drum up mass panic as well.  Anything for a little bit of excitement.

Quote from: Raza  on February 03, 2010, 07:53:17 PM
If I drove a Toyota, I'd drum up mass panic as well.  Anything for a little bit of excitement.

Toyota owners typically lead very boring lives.

OMG HOW AM I GONNA DRIVE, LIKE...SRSLY.  WHAT DO I DO HAHFKLDJSA;FNKEL;VJCKL;FKJDSAL;FJAELW;FJDS;F/XF/VCXZ

Maybe this will drop resale values on Tacomas...   :devil:

Quote from: Raza  on February 03, 2010, 07:53:17 PM
If I drove a Toyota, I'd drum up mass panic as well.  Anything for a little bit of excitement.

:lol:

TOYOTA: THE OFFICIAL CAR OF BILL FRIST ACCOUNTING

Quote from: Rockraven on February 03, 2010, 07:47:17 PM
:facepalm: Oh my god. Is there any wonder why I don't like humans.

+1

Sheeple are DUMB.

Ruh roh. Now Toyota is admitting there's a software glitch with the braking system in the Prius. Industry analysts are now saying that this could actually KILL Toyota. I disagree, but the media/public overreaction/mass hysteria that's going on is really going to sting them for awhile.

Quote from: Rockraven on February 04, 2010, 06:30:54 AM
Industry analysts are now saying that this could actually KILL Toyota. I disagree, but the media/public overreaction/mass hysteria that's going on is really going to sting them for awhile.

It won't be kill but it will definitely drop the resale value for a long long while.

At best what I see is that the government forced Toyota to invent the most likely failure scenario and then fix this imaginary flaw. Nothing tells me this more than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "solution" that preceded it.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 09:37:48 AM
At best what I see is that the government forced Toyota to invent the most likely failure scenario and then fix this imaginary flaw. Nothing tells me this more than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "solution" that preceded it.

There were something like 300 incidents, some resulting in death. It isn't an imaginary flaw.

Quote from: TBR on February 04, 2010, 09:50:48 AM
There were something like 300 incidents, some resulting in death. It isn't an imaginary flaw.

Not one shred of data has been (publicly) shown. Not one.

All you have is 300 "reported" incidents (out of 2.3M vehicles).

So this company which provides pedal assemblies for Toyota; I wonder if the make pedals for anyone else?

Quote from: R-inge on February 04, 2010, 10:09:38 AM
So this company which provides pedal assemblies for Toyota; I wonder if the make pedals for anyone else?

They do, however they are mostly different Designs. But Ford did recall a vehicle in China that used this setup. I think it was the Chinese Transit.

Quote from: Galaxy on February 04, 2010, 10:30:39 AM

They do, however they are mostly different Designs. But Ford did recall a vehicle in China that used this setup. I think it was the Chinese Transit.

There was no recall.  They stopped production and sales, but when they discovered the pedals weren't the same design, they lifted the sanctions.

Toyota's problem isn't with the vehicles as much as it is with their handling of problems.  I've mentioned here several times my experience working for Japanese car dealerships.   A lot of complaints stay "in house".  Honda had many problems with quality control and electronics in the late seventies and early eighties that were not made public.  Nissan had oil leaks and problems with hydraulic lifters.  

The internet has removed that safety net for the manufacturers.  

Toyota seems to routinely blame the customer until enough internet forums point out that problems are not isolated.  Saab did it with sludge problems and, instead of learning from Saab's mistake, did the same when their sludge problem.  

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 09:56:36 AM
Not one shred of data has been (publicly) shown. Not one.

All you have is 300 "reported" incidents (out of 2.3M vehicles).

So  because it hasn't been publicly shown means it doesn't exist? You're smarter than that.

Why would the NHTSA arbitrarily force Toyota to do a recall? And why wouldn't Toyota be taking legal action against them if there was no basis for it?

Quote from: TBR on February 04, 2010, 11:43:28 AM
So  because it hasn't been publicly shown means it doesn't exist? You're smarter than that.

Why would the NHTSA arbitrarily force Toyota to do a recall? And why wouldn't Toyota be taking legal action against them if there was no basis for it?

It's simple logic really: if you can't prove it it doesn't exist. No one has conclusively stated that any of these supposed "solutions" address a cause. The language to date is "if this happens it can cause the problem" not that "this is what caused the problem in the reported incidences."

Had the floor mat issue never come to the fore I don't I'd have nearly as strong an opinion (though I would still feel compelled to point out that not one shred of evidence exists in public fora). The NHTSA is government and government's sole cause is to stay in power; and good luck suing the NHTSA; Toyota already has enough of a PR disaster on its hands.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
It's simple logic really: if you can't prove it it doesn't exist. No one has conclusively stated that any of these supposed "solutions" address a cause. The language to date is "if this happens it can cause the problem" not that "this is what caused the problem in the reported incidences."

Had the floor mat issue never come to the fore I don't I'd have nearly as strong an opinion (though I would still feel compelled to point out that not one shred of evidence exists in public fora). The NHTSA is government and government's sole cause is to stay in power; and good luck suing the NHTSA; Toyota already has enough of a PR disaster on its hands.

That is not simple logic. That is Cougslogic.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
It's simple logic really: if you can't prove it it doesn't exist. No one has conclusively stated that any of these supposed "solutions" address a cause. The language to date is "if this happens it can cause the problem" not that "this is what caused the problem in the reported incidences."

Had the floor mat issue never come to the fore I don't I'd have nearly as strong an opinion (though I would still feel compelled to point out that not one shred of evidence exists in public fora). The NHTSA is government and government's sole cause is to stay in power; and good luck suing the NHTSA; Toyota already has enough of a PR disaster on its hands.

I would wonder if anyone who experienced an uncontrolled accelleration problem ever saw that it was the floormat causing it.  I think I would notice if the floormat was pressing down on the gas pedal.  It seems that this reason was just invented by Toyota because they didn't want to admit the real fault.  Even 'sticky' gas pedals doesn't explain all the cases.  As with their sludge problem, they tried to fix it in the background without it being identified, by the media or the NHTSA, as a safety issue.  This time it caught up to them, big time.

To the best of my memory, the NHTSA doesn't force recalls.  It will pursue a company to recall a problem and if it is met with resistance will threaten them.

The usual chain of events is:

1,000 customer complaints to the NHTSA will generate a notification of a possible problem to the manufacturer.
The manufacturer will investigate and can  recall the vehicles or explain why it isn't a problem.
The manufacturer presents a solution to the NHTSA and the NHTSA will give approval for the correction.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 12:18:14 PM
I would wonder if anyone who experienced an uncontrolled accelleration problem ever saw that it was the floormat causing it.  I think I would notice if the floormat was pressing down on the gas pedal.  It seems that this reason was just invented by Toyota because they didn't want to admit the real fault.  Even 'sticky' gas pedals doesn't explain all the cases.  As with their sludge problem, they tried to fix it in the background without it being identified, by the media or the NHTSA, as a safety issue.  This time it caught up to them, big time.

The engine sludge problem may not have generated a safety review.  If a problem exists in product quality, that is not an immediate threat to life, the manufacturer can voluntarily repair the problem without government involvement.  That is the way it was with Ford and V8 intake manifolds. It was a "M" (modification, customer satisfaction) field service action.  It ran seven years.  A true "safety recall" is designated with an "S" and never expires.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 12:18:14 PM
I would wonder if anyone who experienced an uncontrolled accelleration problem ever saw that it was the floormat causing it.  I think I would notice if the floormat was pressing down on the gas pedal.  It seems that this reason was just invented by Toyota because they didn't want to admit the real fault.  Even 'sticky' gas pedals doesn't explain all the cases.  As with their sludge problem, they tried to fix it in the background without it being identified, by the media or the NHTSA, as a safety issue.  This time it caught up to them, big time.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/02/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-winter-floormats-no-problem-here.html

(http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/assets_c/2010/02/2010_Fusionhy_1600_priusstuck_det-thumb-717x453.jpg)

In the case of the engine 'sludging' and either expiring or exploding, I recall there were somewhere around 3,000 complaints reported.  Toyota blamed the customers for not maintaining it correctly.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 12:18:14 PM
I would wonder if anyone who experienced an uncontrolled accelleration problem ever saw that it was the floormat causing it.  I think I would notice if the floormat was pressing down on the gas pedal.  It seems that this reason was just invented by Toyota because they didn't want to admit the real fault.  Even 'sticky' gas pedals doesn't explain all the cases.  As with their sludge problem, they tried to fix it in the background without it being identified, by the media or the NHTSA, as a safety issue.  This time it caught up to them, big time.

Toyota invented the floor mat issue as various powers were forcing Toyota to "fix" a problem. When that "fix" didn't wash said powers forced Toyota to invent an even more spurious solution.

I do not know of this sludge problem.

Quote from: ifcar on February 04, 2010, 12:26:35 PM
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/02/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-winter-floormats-no-problem-here.html

(http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/assets_c/2010/02/2010_Fusionhy_1600_priusstuck_det-thumb-717x453.jpg)

If you put them on top of the summer mats and don't hook them, they can slide forward and trap the pedal on a Prius if that's what you're trying to do.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 12:36:00 PM
If you put them on top of the summer mats and don't hook them, they can slide forward and trap the pedal on a Prius if that's what you're trying to do.

And that can't happen with the other 250,000,000+ other vehicles on US roads today?

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
And that can't happen with the other 250,000,000+ other vehicles on US roads today?

The linked material:

QuoteThe throttle above is stuck in the wide-open position. It was amazingly easy to do. I can reproduce it in half a minute in any Prius with nothing but my wits and a genuine Prius winter mat. In just the right position, the bottom of the pedal clicks into or behind the drainage channel that runs around the perimeter and the pedal gets stuck....

The Ford Fusion mats carry the same molded-in warning as the Prius ones. They are stiff, they don't bend much. If anything, the perimeter drainage groove is even deeper and squarer. And the Ford Fusion has a top-hinged gas pedal, just like the Prius. Hmmm.

Duplicating the same conditions, I've ignored the warning and left the carpet mats hooked in place. The hook can only accommodate one layer, so the rubber mat is free to move. I slide it forward to see if I can make it jam the pedal, just as I did with the Prius.

I cannot do it. The Fusion's pedal doesn't want to stick to the mat. It's close, but the angle is different. The floor looks flatter and the pedal might be a little shorter, too.

I agree with Ford and Toyota that you shouldn't stack floor mats. The uppermost one can't be restrained by the hooks and the thickness buildup eats into the clearance that's intended to be there. But directions don't always get read or followed, so this kind of thing will continue to happen. Our Ford Fusion seems much more tolerant of such misuse.

What of Toyota? Well, the Fusion example shows that Toyota's proposed pedal entrapment fix (recall 1 of 2, if you're keeping score) has merit and should address a portion of the complaints. Even now they have begun shortening gas pedals and reshaping the floor itself of affected Toyota and Lexus cars so the floor mat sits flatter and lower in the area under the pedal. In short, they're making the pedal region look more like that of our 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid.

Apologies if posted earlier.  Here is a slideshow showing some cases of Toyotas taking off (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/slideshow?id=8978778).

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
Toyota invented the floor mat issue as various powers were forcing Toyota to "fix" a problem. When that "fix" didn't wash said powers forced Toyota to invent an even more spurious solution.

I do not know of this sludge problem.

It's interesting that so many people don't.  It just goes to show how well Toyota's PR department works.  There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of reports on the internet.  I was following it when it first came to light.  Edmunds had a forum section especially dedicated to it.  Suddenly, that section disappeared.

Toyota, owners spar over sludge problem (http://lubestop.com/articles/ToyotaSludge.pdf)

Toyota engines - the sludge problem (http://www.corolland.com/sludge.html)

We know that sludge is not an uncommon problem for a number of manufacturers, especially if the vehicles are not properly maintained.  If you read through some of the customer reports of their slugded up Toyotas, this was not usually the case; especially the low mileage ones.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 12:26:36 PM
In the case of the engine 'sludging' and either expiring or exploding, I recall there were somewhere around 3,000 complaints reported.  Toyota blamed the customers for not maintaining it correctly.

Yeah, the "idiot" customers followed the OEM guidelines for oil changes and it bit them in the ass.

Back in the 1980's, Ford proclaimed the Escort could go 7500 miles between oil changes.  It lowered their EPA fees and raised the maintenance ranking in Consumer Reports.  In the owner's manual though was a little note that said "severe service" required an oil change every 3,000 miles.  Ford's definition of "severe service" was a engine start up and/or drive of less than one mile within the oil change period.  So, moving the Escort down the drive way to cut grass was severe service.

Where I live was always considered a "severe service" region. 

However, there was a time when a lot of people really never bothered changing their oil.  They just topped it up.  If you looked at the dip-stick, it looked like tar yet the cars just kept on running.  Maybe something to do with the less than precise clearances.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 01:15:00 PM
Where I live was always considered a "severe service" region. 

However, there was a time when a lot of people really never bothered changing their oil.  They just topped it up.  If you looked at the dip-stick, it looked like tar yet the cars just kept on running.  Maybe something to do with the less than precise clearances.

Probably.  I had a friend that owned a 1971 (or 72 or 73) Dodge Colt.  She drove it three years without changing or checking the oil.  When I found out I volunteered to change the oil and filter for her.  The drain plug took thirty minutes to remove, the filter twisted apart when removed, and we managed to get one quart of oil out of it.  I took a clothes hanger and probed around the pan, but couldn't retrieve any sludge.  I guessed that it would show over filled if there was enough sludge in the pan, but it took the correct amount of oil and showed right on the full mark of the dip stick. 

She became concerned when the oil light began to flicker, but the Colt engine never knocked or showed any signs of damage.  She sold it months later and still running strong.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
It's simple logic really: if you can't prove it it doesn't exist. No one has conclusively stated that any of these supposed "solutions" address a cause. The language to date is "if this happens it can cause the problem" not that "this is what caused the problem in the reported incidences."

Had the floor mat issue never come to the fore I don't I'd have nearly as strong an opinion (though I would still feel compelled to point out that not one shred of evidence exists in public fora). The NHTSA is government and government's sole cause is to stay in power; and good luck suing the NHTSA; Toyota already has enough of a PR disaster on its hands.

Like I said in another post on another topic.  You are so full  of shit.     :rolleyes:

It appears to me that Toyota has dealt with this very badly - if there is a safety issue with your products, you have to make it public as quickly as you can and implement the fix publicly as quickly as you can.

On the other hand...

The government has a conflict of interest; there are many political careers riding on the success of its investment in GM and Chrysler. The likelihood of success is increased if you can talk up the shortcomings of your competitors. The government's stake in Toyota's rivals greatly compromises its ability to be seen to be an even-handed referee on the field of play of consumer safety.

We have heard a lot from the Department of Transportation, the politicians, disaffected dealers and consumers. We've heard very little from Toyota. Journalists should be digging; is there a story Toyota would like to tell? Or is this just gross incompetence?

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
And that can't happen with the other 250,000,000+ other vehicles on US roads today?

Depends on the distance bwteen the bottom of the pedal and the carpet. It doesn't take an engineer to see that.    :rolleyes:   

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:06:12 PM
It's simple logic really: if you can't prove it it doesn't exist.

Please prove the existence of god. 


This should be good. 



Either that, or you'll do as you always do when you get a challenge you don't like and state some reason why you should ignore it.

Quote from: Raza  on February 04, 2010, 03:01:43 PM
Please prove the existence of god. 


This should be good. 



Either that, or you'll do as you always do when you get a challenge you don't like and state some reason why you should ignore it.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote from: Maxxum on February 04, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
Apologies if posted earlier.  Here is a slideshow showing some cases of Toyotas taking off (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/slideshow?id=8978778).

Nothing written, doubt it was the fault of the car but more likely driver error though. 

Quote from: Raza  on February 04, 2010, 03:01:43 PM
Please prove the existence of god. 


This should be good. 



Either that, or you'll do as you always do when you get a challenge you don't like and state some reason why you should ignore it.

No answer is possible where there is no challenge.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 04:06:42 PM
No answer is possible where there is no challenge.

:confused:

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 04:06:42 PM
No answer is possible where there is no challenge.

:rolleyes: :confused:

Quote from: NomisR on February 04, 2010, 04:08:37 PM
:rolleyes: :confused:

I suspect he's indicating that God does not exist. 

Ask him to prove that Ayn Rand is a god and he may never stop writing.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 04, 2010, 04:27:41 PM
I suspect he's indicating that God does not exist.  

Ask him to prove that Ayn Rand is a god and he may never stop writing.

:lol:

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 04:06:42 PM
No answer is possible where there is no challenge.

You're as predictable as a primetime family-based sitcom, Cougs, and just as funny.

You said it yourself.  There is no god.  You can't prove its existence, therefore it doesn't exist. 

Quote from: NomisR on February 04, 2010, 03:39:30 PM
Nothing written, doubt it was the fault of the car but more likely driver error though. 

well its not like a forum member here hit the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal trying to avoid something once upon a time  :lol:

Quote from: r0tor on February 04, 2010, 04:43:30 PM
well its not like a forum member here hit the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal trying to avoid something once upon a time  :lol:

I don't remember that incident?

That's how I crashed my SVT.  I got the gas and the brake at the same time.

Just stick with me folks; we'll tune up thou Internetry in no time.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2010/toyota.recall/index.html

There is a video on electrical interference.  Cell phones....mmmm.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 09:37:48 AM
At best what I see is that the government forced Toyota to invent the most likely failure scenario and then fix this imaginary flaw. Nothing tells me this more than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "solution" that preceded it.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2010, 12:29:29 PM
Toyota invented the floor mat issue as various powers were forcing Toyota to "fix" a problem. When that "fix" didn't wash said powers forced Toyota to invent an even more spurious solution.

I do not know of this sludge problem.

:facepalm:

Do you spend all your waking hours pulling bullshit conspiracy theories out of your ass?


Madman of the People

Documents in Toyota ?conspiracy? case could be made public soon
02/05/2010, 1:53 PM
BY DREW JOHNSON


In what could be a devastating blow to Toyota?s already crumbling image, a ruling is expected in the coming days on a court case that would reveal thousands of documents allegedly showing Toyota covered up and destroyed evidence during several safety-related lawsuits.

The lawsuit ? filed by former Toyota defense attorney Dimitrios Biller last summer ? claims Toyota has been hiding and destroying evidence ? particularly related to safety concerns ? for several years. Biller defended Toyota in product liability cases from 2003 to 2007 and claims to have 6,000 internal documents proving Toyota?s massive cover up.

A California court ruled last August that the documents must remain confidential, but that decision could be overturned in the coming days as the case in now under final review. Both Toyota and Biller made their final filings on the case late last month.

Although the documents in question do not involve Toyota?s current problem of unintended acceleration ? most of the documents reportedly involve rollover cases ? they would definitively prove a pattern of covering up safety-related issues at Toyota. Government officials are currently investigating if Toyota knew about its unintended acceleration problems as early as 2004.

Whether Toyota was actually involved in a cover up remains to be seen, but Biller believes he has the evidence to prove a Toyota ?conspiracy?. ?Toyota is a very secretive corporation. It doesn?t believe anybody outside the corporation deserves to know what is going on inside, even if it kills somebody,? Biller told the Los Angeles Times.

He added: ?Toyota does not believe it has to follow orders or turn over documents. They just don?t think the rules apply to them."
A ruling on the matter is expected in the coming days.

It should be interesting to see how this unfolds.  It's starting to sound like a plot in one of Tom Clancy's novels.

Report: NHTSA turns an eye towards electronics as source of Toyota troubles (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/toyota-electronics-investigated-by-nhtsa-report/)

Reports from multiple news outlets cite sources within the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration who claim the government is now looking into electrical problems as the source for Toyota's recall troubles. The unnamed agency employee reportedly told CNN that the government is investigating whether electromagnetic interference might cause the electronic throttle control system to malfunction. The source went on to add that the agency has found no evidence of problems with the electronic throttle, though engineers at NHTSA were still actively investigating the matter.

News of a possible electronics investigation comes not long after Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood claimed that NHTSA "wasn't done with Toyota," and that the Japanese automaker was "a little safety deaf." Shinichi Sasaki, Toyota's vice president in charge of quality, reportedly claimed that the embattled automaker has never found any evidence of electrical problems, a familiar line from the automaker that we've heard since the latest recall was announced. Toyota has been quick to state, however, that it will do anything possible to cooperate in the investigation.

At least one safety expert feels NHTSA should have investigated electronic issues long ago. Sean Kane, president of Safety Research Strategies, said in a recent interview that "by all appearances, electronics are playing a significant role in the problems." Kane says 2002?2006 Camry and 2005?2007 Tacoma models should specifically be investigated, and he points to a case of a 2005 Camry owner who experienced unintended acceleration as he attempted to park. The driver instead launched 23 feet and then dropped off of a 70-foot cliff, killing the driver's wife. Kane says the floor mat was securely fastened to the floor when the accident occurred.

As is typically the case with "anonymous sources," we expect an announcement from NHTSA any day now. Is the safety organization trying to show Congress just how hard it's working to find a solution for Toyota's problems in advance of the February 10 hearing on Capitol Hill? Could be, but more negative press is the last thing Toyota needs right now.

I'm sure shielding will be required on certain harnesses and electronic components after this, on all vehicles.  I'm surprised this hasn't happened before.  I've seen one or two vehicle where problems have occurred around strong electrical fields.

I'm not that clear on how external electrical fields could affect stuff that is wired.  I could see it happening with door locks.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 05, 2010, 07:51:48 PM
I'm not that clear on how external electrical fields could affect stuff that is wired.  I could see it happening with door locks.

Induction and capacitance; here's a cool example: powering a fluorescent light bulb with no contact with anything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHxLyDJ81U).

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 05, 2010, 07:51:48 PM
I'm not that clear on how external electrical fields could affect stuff that is wired.  I could see it happening with door locks.

Military communications equipment is VERY expensive because it has to be particularly shielded so that the goings-on inside don't leak out, AND so outside devices don't disrupt it.  You must put non-secure internet cat5 cable at least 6inches away from secure cat5 because you can "leak" signal through the air.. 

I own cheap cellphones- if I leave them close to the car radio every once in a while they make a loud chattering noise which is picked up and put to the car speakers (even if I'm playing a CD.)

I have a new charged for my Wii remotes- it's a flat "induction pad" which has coils inside, and you just put special battery pack into the remote. Lay the remote on top of the pad, even with the rubber condom on. There is no contact whatsoever, the field from the charger charges the batteries.

There are a billion other examples of interference, and it's only getting worse as more wireless gadgets, and bluetooth, and GPS, and "smart" anythings keep multiplying..

I'm completely lost when it comes to electrical.   The video page I linked earlier showed how a cell phone signal affects the sound of a television.  That how I relate to it.  Solid core plug wires and AM radios didn't go together.  When I worked in Fremont California, overhead power lines interfered with the radios.

Does anyone else think some of the bitch slapping is coming as aggressively towards Toyota as it is because of the C4C backlash and the fact that the Japanese Ministry of Commerce was being a bit obstinate with American car sales in Japan for their C4C program?

Quote from: the Teuton on February 05, 2010, 08:54:53 PM
Does anyone else think some of the bitch slapping is coming as aggressively towards Toyota as it is because of the C4C backlash and the fact that the Japanese Ministry of Commerce was being a bit obstinate with American car sales in Japan for their C4C program?

I doubt it. I think it's more of an organic machination (absence of major stories + people like to see the best fall from grace) that has lead to this effort to crucify Toyota.

A valuable lesson for all car companies: Don't issue a massive recall during a slow news week!  :lol:


Madman of the People

Quote from: Madman on February 05, 2010, 09:19:46 PM
A valuable lesson for all car companies: Don't issue a massive recall during a slow news week!  :lol:


Madman of the People

We were told in ethics class to put negative stories into cycle on Friday afternoons shortly before the end of the day (think 3ish) so it wouldn't travel quite like this one has.

Pffffffffft, "ethics". You lead with the negative stories in today's ratings-fueled climate, son. Pull the pundits out of cryostasis and make them experts in Toyotology. Air that shit on Monday and continue to flog it all week long.  Also, missing white girls and H1N1.

Quote from: Laconian on February 06, 2010, 12:19:19 PM
Pffffffffft, "ethics". You lead with the negative stories in today's ratings-fueled climate, son. Pull the pundits out of cryostasis and make them experts in Toyotology. Air that shit on Monday and continue to flog it all week long.  Also, missing white girls and H1N1.

Who do you think has a worse job right now: Ed Whitacre or Akio Toyoda?

Toyoda.  At least Whitacre can plausibly claim that GM was in the pits before he showed.

I don't see how EMI would bother the Toyota pedals and not the millions of DBW pedals on the road for other makes.

Oh yeah, Toyota has officially recalled the Prius...in Japan. Surprisingly, they didn't do it here at the same time...well, then again, no.

They have one recall in Japan since they're not of the pansy-ass nature we are here with floor mats. Since all of their cars have Denso pedals, it makes sense.

Recalling another 233,000 Priuses on top of the other 2.3 million cars they've already recalled would kill their image...as if it hasn't been killed already.

Quote from: R-inge on February 06, 2010, 08:56:46 PM
I don't see how EMI would bother the Toyota pedals and not the millions of DBW pedals on the road for other makes.

It wouldn't be the pedals but the shielding around the wires going to the computer, and if the computer is catching interference. I'm sure every car's electronics system is engineered different..

Toyota sure threw together some commercials very quickly about their heritage and past safety record.   Every channel this morning has at least two different ones running about every thirty minutes.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 05, 2010, 09:10:16 PM
I doubt it. I think it's more of an organic machination (absence of major stories + people like to see the best fall from grace) that has lead to this effort to crucify Toyota.

Absence of of major stories? :confused:  You've gotta' be kidding.

Toyota brought it on themselves by putting more effort into protecting their image than taking action in regards to the safety of their customers.  They deserve to be bitch-slapped all the way Tokyo and back.  I'm looking forward to seeing Toyoda-yarou in front of a senate hearing; if he's got the guts.

At least the 16-percent-owned-by-Toyota, Subaru, doesn't have all of this shit-by-wire stuff going on.

Perhaps Toyota listened to me. They issued the recall for the Prius DURING the Super Bowl. How low can they go?

Toyota recalls 437,000 hybrids, including Toyota Prius, Toyota Sai and Lexus HS 250h
02/09/2010, 1:57 AM
BY MARK KLEIS


As anticipated by much of the media, Toyota has officially announced the solution for the braking issues on the 2010 Toyota Prius and 2010 Lexus HS 250H hybrids in the U.S. market, as well as the Toyota Sai sold mostly in Japan. Toyota will be issuing a voluntary recall for approximately 133,000 Prius vehicles and 14,500 Lexus HS 250h hybrid models in the U.S. concerning potential for ABS brake failure due to a software glitch, with a total worldwide recall count of 437,000 vehicles.

According to Toyota, the ABS system found in its hybrid models should under normal conditions engage and disengage many times per second as it reacts to tire slippage, but for the 2010 Prius, Toyota Sai and Lexus HS 250h hybrids the system can fail to engage at the proper rate while braking over pot holes or uneven surfaces.

Toyota had made a change on the production line for the 2010 Prius once it learned of this problem back in late January, but the vehicles produced prior to that date will require a software upgrade in order to fix the problem. The Lexus HS 250h is still being produced without a fix, but the Lexus HS 250h and Toyota Sai will have their sales halted until a fix is in place, according to CNN. Toyota says that it will implement a change on the production line later this month.

According to NHTSA reports, the 2010 Prius has logged more than twice as many complaints than the sum of all other 2010 Toyota models combined ? including the models included in the latest recalls.

Toyota also says that it will begin mailing letters to Prius owners included in this recall next week and HS 250h owners within the next few weeks. The affected vehicles in the U.S. will need to have a re-flash of the car?s computer in order to fix the issue.

Toyota recalls 7,300 Camrys with potentially leaking brake tube
02/09/2010, 2:36 AM
BY MARK KLEIS


In a separate and completely unrelated (to unintended acceleration cases, floor mats or brake pedals) voluntary recall, Toyota will be fixing approximately 7,300 2010 four-cylinder Camrys with a shorter-than-intended power steering pressure hose that can interfere with the braking system and cause a brake fluid leak.

According to the announcement made by Toyota late Monday night, the issue with the brake fluid tube begins when a crimp from the power steering hose comes in contact with the number seven front brake tube. If this occurs, the crimp can wear a hole in the brake tube over time and eventually lead to a loss of brake fluid.

Toyota says that there are no symptoms associated with this problem that a driver may notice until the leak has already begun. In the event that the brake tube is punctured and brake fluid begins to leak, brake pedal stroke and stopping distance will be increased due to a decrease in power-assisted braking.

Toyota says that the affected Camry models will need to be inspected by a dealers, and if necessary, adjust the space between the brake tube and power steering pressure hose crimp. In some cases, the dealer may replace the brake tube if damaged.

Camry owners will be notified starting in mid-February 2010.

Damn not a good time to be a Toyota Exec. Almost seems like an inside job

I just heard on the radio that there's going to be another big recall from Toyota to cover steering issues on Camry and Corolla.

Quote from: JWC on February 07, 2010, 08:44:19 AM
Toyota sure threw together some commercials very quickly about their heritage and past safety record.   Every channel this morning has at least two different ones running about every thirty minutes.

I just saw a Toyota commercial this morning on CNBC saying they were not happy with themselves and are stopping production so they can make sure that all their customers cars are safe - or something to that effect. 

Really?  They're taking people off the assembly line to fix customer cars?  They're full of shit and still lying.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 10:48:38 AM
I just saw a Toyota commercial this morning on CNBC saying they were not happy with themselves and are stopping production so they can make sure that all their customers cars are safe - or something to that effect. 

Really?  They're taking people off the assembly line to fix customer cars?  They're full of shit and still lying.

It's good PR though.  90% of the buying public will believe that.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 10:58:03 AM
It's good PR though.  90% of the buying public will believe that.

Of course, and 90% of the buying public are idiots when it comes to cars.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 11:01:37 AM
Of course, and 90% of the buying public are idiots when it comes to cars.

Toyota only cares about those 90%.  They don't care about the 10% that see right though their BS.

I've driven more Corollas than any other Toyotas. I can tell you what the problem is with their steering: It has no feel to it and the car is boring as fuck.

Can they recall a car for being boring as fuck?

The '05 model with hydraulic steering is about as engaging as a toaster. The new model isn't even that good.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 10:42:14 AM
I just heard on the radio that there's going to be another big recall from Toyota to cover steering issues on Camry and Corolla.

DAAYUUUUUMMMMMM

But u know what, I give Toyota credit for owning up to stuff. Back in the days a GM car would be more expensive to fix than replace around 130K miles, and that was just accepted as the norm. Toyota, at least, is owning up to some degree.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 09, 2010, 11:11:49 AM
DAAYUUUUUMMMMMM

But u know what, I give Toyota credit for owning up to stuff. Back in the days a GM car would be more expensive to fix than replace around 130K miles, and that was just accepted as the norm. Toyota, at least, is owning up to some degree.

Mhmmm...GM's car swap problem is kind of laughable when one considers that they have made 10x + the number of recalls Toyota will issue when this disaster is said and done.

That being said, Toyota is in a spot of bother at the moment. 

But this really makes me wonder if the Toyota PR team has the same kind of ardor it had during, ahem, Sludgegate.

If I were Toyota, I would have just said, "Look, we have a bunch of things we need to take care of, so everyone with a newer Toyota, please come in and we'll fix all of it at once."

Now, you're having some Camry owners coming in for 2 or 3 recalls. People are busy, and time is money. And Toyota looks like it doesn't have an appreciation for that fact. 10% of my Enterprise's fleet is out on recall right now, more now that the Prius is being recalled. That's a hell of a lot of money that the rental car company isn't making because Toyota can't man up and just recall everything at once and be forward with it.

And since it's coming in waves, it just looks like Toyota doesn't have its act together at all. With either wide spacing between recalls or doing it all at once, customers and the media wouldn't have so much reason to be upset.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2010, 11:33:33 AM
But this really makes me wonder if the Toyota PR team has the same kind of ardor it had during, ahem, Sludgegate.

If I were Toyota, I would have just said, "Look, we have a bunch of things we need to take care of, so everyone with a newer Toyota, please come in and we'll fix all of it at once."

Now, you're having some Camry owners coming in for 2 or 3 recalls. People are busy, and time is money. And Toyota looks like it doesn't have an appreciation for that fact. 10% of my Enterprise's fleet is out on recall right now, more now that the Prius is being recalled. That's a hell of a lot of money that the rental car company isn't making because Toyota can't man up and just recall everything at once and be forward with it.

And since it's coming in waves, it just looks like Toyota doesn't have its act together at all. With either wide spacing between recalls or doing it all at once, customers and the media wouldn't have so much reason to be upset.

Free loaner cars to drive with every recall, why not.. less miles being put on my car.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 12:02:24 PM
Free loaner cars to drive with every recall, why not.. less miles being put on my car.

What dealership has that many loaners available?! 

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 09, 2010, 12:25:25 PM
What dealership has that many loaners available?! 

Especially when most of the fleet is on recall :huh:.

Enterprise contracts dealers in our area to provide discounted rental cars, often with dealers footing the bill and limited out-of-pocket expenses from the customer.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2010, 12:35:59 PM
Enterprise contracts dealers in our area to provide discounted rental cars, often with dealers footing the bill and limited out-of-pocket expenses from the customer.

We used to do that at the Pontiac-Caddy store.  We insisted they put them in a GM product.  There is no worst advertisement for a car company than to have a customer put into a competitor's vehicle while their car  is broken.

Usually, you can make an appointment for a loaner car before you take the car in.  And if they don't have loaners, a rental paid by the dealer can typically be given.

Quote from: JWC on February 09, 2010, 12:49:43 PM
We used to do that at the Pontiac-Caddy store.  We insisted they put them in a GM product.  There is no worst advertisement for a car company than to have a customer put into a competitor's vehicle while their car  is broken.

The Jag dealer did that until they discontinued the X-Types. Now, we provide them with Volvos and Toyotas -- mostly Toyotas.

I'm pretty sure they're taking whatever we're giving them right now.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2010, 01:00:01 PM
The Jag dealer did that until they discontinued the X-Types. Now, we provide them with Volvos and Toyotas -- mostly Toyotas.

I'm pretty sure they're taking whatever we're giving them right now.

I'm sure you're right.  But, having been in the position where customers did end up in a Toyota or Nissan instead of their Pontiac, it was difficult to take the "wow, I really liked that rental car".  You know they're going to buy a Toyota next....well, in my case anyway.

Quote from: JWC on February 09, 2010, 01:26:47 PM

I'm sure you're right.  But, having been in the position where customers did end up in a Toyota or Nissan instead of their Pontiac, it was difficult to take the "wow, I really liked that rental car".  You know they're going to buy a Toyota next....well, in my case anyway.

It's not your fault that GM didn't know how to build cars properly back then.

NHTSA looking into complaints of 2009-10 Corolla steering problems
02/09/2010, 4:07 PM
BY MARK KLEIS

 
New reports are suggesting that the latest Toyota Corolla may be suffering from strange behavior from its electric power steering system. NHTSA says that at this time it is reviewing complaints regarding the problem before determining if a formal investigation is warranted.

NHTSA says that it receives approximately 30,000 complaints each year, and goes about reviewing each and every one on a daily basis. Of those thousands of complaints, some eventually result in action being taken by either NHTSA or the automakers. In the case of the Corolla, it is far too early to determine if there is actually a widespread problem.

According to analysis by Automotive News, NHTSA is taking a look at 83 complaints ? 76 of which allege that the 2009-10 Corolla?s electric power steering can unexpectedly cause the vehicle to veer off to one side when traveling above 40 mph. The complaints say that the event can be likened to a sudden gust of strong wind, encountering black ice or hydroplaning. The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle.

?We are reviewing steering complaints with the Corolla to determine if a safety-defect investigation is warranted, as is standard procedure with all complaints,? said NHTSA spokeswoman, Karen Aldana.

So far, the issue has been reported to have caused 10 injuries during six accidents. Some of the accidents resulted in overturned vehicles ? including trips to the bottom of a cliff and a ditch ? upside down.

?This was the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life as well as my grandchildren!? claimed one complaint from Fayetville, N.C. That complaint went on to explain that the vehicle veered ?on its own,? sending the Corolla down a cliff, ending with an impact to a tree and fence.

It is important to clarify that the Corolla is not under full investigation by NHTSA, as it is just in the initial screening phase. Should NHTSA determine that the issue warrants further inquiry, the case would then proceed to the investigation phase. If the investigation determines that the evidence warrants further consideration, it will then move to an engineering analysis, and potentially from there to a recall.

Toyota first began offering electric power steering on the Corolla with the 2009 model year, which first went on sale in February 2008.

At this point, how many Toyotas are on the road that haven't been recalled?

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 03:02:57 PM
NHTSA looking into complaints of 2009-10 Corolla steering problems
02/09/2010, 4:07 PM
BY MARK KLEIS

 
New reports are suggesting that the latest Toyota Corolla may be suffering from strange behavior from its electric power steering system. NHTSA says that at this time it is reviewing complaints regarding the problem before determining if a formal investigation is warranted.

NHTSA says that it receives approximately 30,000 complaints each year, and goes about reviewing each and every one on a daily basis. Of those thousands of complaints, some eventually result in action being taken by either NHTSA or the automakers. In the case of the Corolla, it is far too early to determine if there is actually a widespread problem.

According to analysis by Automotive News, NHTSA is taking a look at 83 complaints ? 76 of which allege that the 2009-10 Corolla?s electric power steering can unexpectedly cause the vehicle to veer off to one side when traveling above 40 mph. The complaints say that the event can be likened to a sudden gust of strong wind, encountering black ice or hydroplaning. The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle.

?We are reviewing steering complaints with the Corolla to determine if a safety-defect investigation is warranted, as is standard procedure with all complaints,? said NHTSA spokeswoman, Karen Aldana.

So far, the issue has been reported to have caused 10 injuries during six accidents. Some of the accidents resulted in overturned vehicles ? including trips to the bottom of a cliff and a ditch ? upside down.

?This was the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life as well as my grandchildren!? claimed one complaint from Fayetville, N.C. That complaint went on to explain that the vehicle veered ?on its own,? sending the Corolla down a cliff, ending with an impact to a tree and fence.

It is important to clarify that the Corolla is not under full investigation by NHTSA, as it is just in the initial screening phase. Should NHTSA determine that the issue warrants further inquiry, the case would then proceed to the investigation phase. If the investigation determines that the evidence warrants further consideration, it will then move to an engineering analysis, and potentially from there to a recall.

Toyota first began offering electric power steering on the Corolla with the 2009 model year, which first went on sale in February 2008.

That's what having numb steering will do to a car, you won't be able to predict what's going on with the road.  You would think these people know what they're getting into when they buy their vehicles, but like with this entire thread, sheeples don't test drive their cars before they buy it.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 03:02:57 PM
NHTSA looking into complaints of 2009-10 Corolla steering problems

Well, I guess they've hit the trifecta.

Uncontrollable accelleration, brake failure and now the bloody things won't steer straight.

Sounds like a perfect suicide machine :lol:.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 03:20:10 PM
Well, I guess they've hit the trifecta.

Uncontrollable accelleration, brake failure and now the bloody things won't steer straight.

Sounds like a perfect suicide machine :lol:.

And we thought a Pinto with Firestone 500's was bad. :facepalm:

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 03:20:10 PM
Well, I guess they've hit the trifecta.

Uncontrollable accelleration, brake failure and now the bloody things won't steer straight.

Sounds like a perfect suicide machine :lol:.

I think we've been saying this about the Corolla all this time.. it's finally come to the realization of the consumer.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 03:36:05 PM
I think we've been saying this about the Corolla all this time.. it's finally come to the realization of the consumer.

Numb steering doesn't cause a car to just veer to one side or the other.  This is obviously a problem.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 03:47:30 PM
Numb steering doesn't cause a car to just veer to one side or the other.  This is obviously a problem.

Tramlining... ? 

And it does mention crosswind in the article as well.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 03:02:57 PM
NHTSA looking into complaints of 2009-10 Corolla steering problems
02/09/2010, 4:07 PM
BY MARK KLEIS

 
New reports are suggesting that the latest Toyota Corolla may be suffering from strange behavior from its electric power steering system. NHTSA says that at this time it is reviewing complaints regarding the problem before determining if a formal investigation is warranted.

NHTSA says that it receives approximately 30,000 complaints each year, and goes about reviewing each and every one on a daily basis. Of those thousands of complaints, some eventually result in action being taken by either NHTSA or the automakers. In the case of the Corolla, it is far too early to determine if there is actually a widespread problem.

According to analysis by Automotive News, NHTSA is taking a look at 83 complaints ? 76 of which allege that the 2009-10 Corolla?s electric power steering can unexpectedly cause the vehicle to veer off to one side when traveling above 40 mph. The complaints say that the event can be likened to a sudden gust of strong wind, encountering black ice or hydroplaning. The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle.

?We are reviewing steering complaints with the Corolla to determine if a safety-defect investigation is warranted, as is standard procedure with all complaints,? said NHTSA spokeswoman, Karen Aldana.

So far, the issue has been reported to have caused 10 injuries during six accidents. Some of the accidents resulted in overturned vehicles ? including trips to the bottom of a cliff and a ditch ? upside down.

?This was the most terrifying thing that has ever happened to me in my life as well as my grandchildren!? claimed one complaint from Fayetville, N.C. That complaint went on to explain that the vehicle veered ?on its own,? sending the Corolla down a cliff, ending with an impact to a tree and fence.

It is important to clarify that the Corolla is not under full investigation by NHTSA, as it is just in the initial screening phase. Should NHTSA determine that the issue warrants further inquiry, the case would then proceed to the investigation phase. If the investigation determines that the evidence warrants further consideration, it will then move to an engineering analysis, and potentially from there to a recall.

Toyota first began offering electric power steering on the Corolla with the 2009 model year, which first went on sale in February 2008.

The Toyota's EPS system is not steer by wire.  The wheel is still mechanically connected to the steering rack.  If the car veers for any reason, the steering wheel is going to turn.  The front wheels will not turn independently of the steering wheel unless something in the steering rack breaks.  So is the wheel getting yanked out of the drivers' hands when this happens?  I'm not exactly sure how one "over corrects" in this case either.  It's not like skidding on ice or hydroplaning where you can have some slip angle effects going on with the front tires (where when you turn the wheels, they don't bite in so you turn the wheel more and when it does finally bite, the wheels are turned too sharply).

Although it's certainly not a good thing to have the steering randomly fighting you.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 03:49:24 PM
Tramlining... ? 

And it does mention crosswind in the article as well.

What it says is "can be likened to a sudden gust of strong wind, encountering black ice or hydroplaning". 

I guess the electric power steering is picking up a few extra signals. :huh:

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2010, 03:59:05 PM
The Toyota's EPS system is not steer by wire.  The wheel is still mechanically connected to the steering rack.  If the car veers for any reason, the steering wheel is going to turn.  The front wheels will not turn independently of the steering wheel unless something in the steering rack breaks.  So is the wheel getting yanked out of the drivers' hands when this happens?  I'm not exactly sure how one "over corrects" in this case either.  It's not like skidding on ice or hydroplaning where you can have some slip angle effects going on with the front tires (where when you turn the wheels, they don't bite in so you turn the wheel more and when it does finally bite, the wheels are turned too sharply).

Although it's certainly not a good thing to have the steering randomly fighting you.

I guess they just programmed a bit too much 'intelligence' into the computer.  Now it thinks it knows better than the driver. ;)

Just for the sake of informed discussion, this is how the electronic power assist works on a 07 Pontiac G5.  This would be very similar to the operation of the system in the Toyota, though not necessarily identical:

"
Power Steering System Description and Operation
The electric power steering (EPS) system reduces the amount of effort needed to steer the vehicle. The system uses the body control module (BCM), power steering control module (PSCM), torque sensor, discrete battery voltage supply circuit, EPS motor, serial data bus, and the instrument panel cluster (IPC) message center to perform the system functions. The PSCM, torque sensor, not the EPS motor are serviced separately from each other or from the steering column. Any EPS components diagnosed to be malfunctioning requires replacement of the steering column assembly, also known as the EPS assembly.

Torque Sensor
The PSCM uses a torque sensor as it's main input for determining the amount of steering assist. The steering column has an input shaft, from the steering wheel to the torque sensor, and an output shaft, from the torque sensor to the steering shaft coupler. The input and output shafts are separated by a torsion bar, where the torque sensor is located. The sensor consists of a compensation coil, detecting coil and 3 detecting rings. These detecting rings have toothed edges that face each other. Detecting ring 1 is fixed to the output shaft, detecting rings 2 and 3 are fixed top the input shaft. The detecting coil is positioned around the toothed edges of detecting rings 1 and 2. As torque is applied to the steering column shaft the alignment of the teeth between detecting rings 1 and 2 changes, which causes the detecting coil signal voltage to change. The PSCM recognizes this change in signal voltage as steering column shaft torque. The compensation coil is used to compensate for changes in electrical circuit impedance due to circuit temperature changes from the electrical current and voltage levels as well as ambient temperatures for accurate torque detection.

EPS Motor
The EPS motor is a 12-volt brushed DC reversible motor with a 58-amp rating. The motor assists steering through a worm shaft and reduction gear located in the steering column housing.

Power Steering Control Module (PSCM)
The PSCM uses a combination of torque sensor inputs, vehicle speed, calculated system temperature and the steering calibration to determine the amount of steering assist. When the steering wheel is turned, the PSCM uses signal voltage from the torque sensor to detect the amount of torque being applied to the steering column shaft and the amount of current to command to the EPS motor. The PSCM receives serial data from the engine control module (ECM) to determine vehicle speed. At low speeds more assist is provided for easy turning during parking maneuvers. At high speeds, less assist is provided for improved road feel and directional stability. The PSCM nor the EPS motor are designed to handle 58 amps continuously. The PSCM will go into overload protection mode to avoid system thermal damage. In this mode the PSCM will limit the amount of current commanded to the EPS motor which reduces steering assist levels. The PSCM also chooses which steering calibration to use when the ignition is turned ON, based on the production map number stored in the BCM. The PSCM contains all 8 of the steering calibrations which are different in relation to the vehicles RPOs. The PSCM has the ability to detect malfunctions within the EPS system. Any malfunction detected will cause the IPC message center to display PWR STR (or Power Steering) warning message.
? 2010 General Motors.  All rights reserved. "

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 04:06:45 PM
What it says is "can be likened to a sudden gust of strong wind, encountering black ice or hydroplaning". 

I guess the electric power steering is picking up a few extra signals. :huh:

Yeah but also says

"The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle."

So it seems like there's some sort of resistance in the steering and it's not truly electrical.  This still seems more like a driver error rather than car at a first glance of the problem.  People should keep both hands on the wheel at all time anyways, but most don't. 

I'd pull up the description and operation for the actual Toyota system but Alldata is woefully inadequate in this case due to the newness of the vehicle.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 04:12:25 PM
Yeah but also says

"The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle."

So it seems like there's some sort of resistance in the steering and it's not truly electrical.  This still seems more like a driver error rather than car at a first glance of the problem.  People should keep both hands on the wheel at all time anyways, but most don't. 

If the motor were engaging with an unnecessary level of assist in the wrong direction it could feel like it was fighting you.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 04:12:25 PM
Yeah but also says

"The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle."

So it seems like there's some sort of resistance in the steering and it's not truly electrical.  This still seems more like a driver error rather than car at a first glance of the problem.  People should keep both hands on the wheel at all time anyways, but most don't. 

Do you?  The only time I have both hands on the wheel is when I'm having fun on a back road or in snow.  Otherwise, it's a couple fingers while I'm resting my elbow on the door sill.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 04:12:25 PM
Yeah but also says

"The complaints also suggest that attempting to correct the problem can result in over correction ? requiring the driver to apply firm pressure with both hands to regain control of the vehicle."

So it seems like there's some sort of resistance in the steering and it's not truly electrical.  This still seems more like a driver error rather than car at a first glance of the problem.  People should keep both hands on the wheel at all time anyways, but most don't. 

Based on the description R-inge posted of typical electric steering assist, I imagine that there could be a number of things that may go wrong with the assist mechanism which would result in boost being applied when it shouldn't or no boost being applied when it should.  It shouldn't be a difficult thing for them to fix.

You know there was a reason for the two inches of play in old American cars....you could reach for something in the back seat without causing the car to veer. :ohyeah:

The Federal government will begin requiring all cars to have 2-3 inches of steering play to prevent unintentional lane change. :lol:

Quote from: R-inge on February 09, 2010, 04:14:54 PM
If the motor were engaging with an unnecessary level of assist in the wrong direction it could feel like it was fighting you.

Could be, if that's the case the Toyota really has a lot of PR problems in the future.  Could be really ugly. 

Quote from: JWC on February 09, 2010, 04:29:35 PM
You know there was a reason for the two inches of play in old American cars....you could reach for something in the back seat without causing the car to veer. :ohyeah:

...or to slap your kids :lol:.

Quote
The Federal government will begin requiring all cars to have 2-3 inches of steering play to prevent unintentional lane change. :lol:

They could do away with power steering AFAIC.  Sure, they'll have to have a bigger wheel and the steering ratio will have to be increased about 10 times but all you have to do is bolt on a spinner and you're all set.  I remember plenty of times when that spinner on my '51 Merc got me out of trouble on a slippery day.  The only problem was when there were 3 of us on the front bench seat and the guy in the middle, sooner or later, got whacked in the jaw with my elbow. :lol:

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 04:16:16 PM
Do you? 

Yup, or at least 95% of the time on the road. If I'm lazy.. they may be at a lower position instead of 3 and 9...

Quote from: JWC on February 09, 2010, 04:29:35 PM
The Federal government will begin requiring all cars to have 2-3 inches of steering play to prevent unintentional lane change. :lol:

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
They could do away with power steering AFAIC.  Sure, they'll have to have a bigger wheel and the steering ratio will have to be increased about 10 times but all you have to do is bolt on a spinner and you're all set.  I remember plenty of times when that spinner on my '51 Merc got me out of trouble on a slippery day.  The only problem was when there were 3 of us on the front bench seat and the guy in the middle, sooner or later, got whacked in the jaw with my elbow. :lol:

Oh god, I hope not.. doing away with power steering isn't bad though, I can live with it, just not with a huge steering wheel. 

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
...or to slap your kids :lol:.
They could do away with power steering AFAIC.  Sure, they'll have to have a bigger wheel and the steering ratio will have to be increased about 10 times but all you have to do is bolt on a spinner and you're all set.  I remember plenty of times when that spinner on my '51 Merc got me out of trouble on a slippery day.  The only problem was when there were 3 of us on the front bench seat and the guy in the middle, sooner or later, got whacked in the jaw with my elbow. :lol:

"Spinners" (or, as I've heard them called, "Suicide Knobs") are illegal in most places from what I know.

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2010, 04:45:09 PM
"Spinners" (or, as I've heard them called, "Suicide Knobs") are illegal in most places from what I know.

What possible reason could there be for making them illegal?

Quote from: SVT666 on February 09, 2010, 04:46:29 PM
What possible reason could there be for making them illegal?

In an accident, they can cause serious injury to the driver in a number of ways.

Quote from: Raza  on February 09, 2010, 03:11:35 PM
At this point, how many Toyotas are on the road that haven't been recalled?

The Sienna stands alone??      :huh:

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2010, 04:45:09 PM
"Spinners" (or, as I've heard them called, "Suicide Knobs") are illegal in most places from what I know.

Of course they wouldn't make sense in today's cars.  I can practically make a right angle turn by just twitching my finger.

Interesting article on the psychology of panic in a driving situation such as the toyota acceleration issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100209/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_driver_psychology

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is just not going to come to mind."

Quote from: R-inge on February 09, 2010, 05:00:59 PM
Interesting article on the psychology of panic in a driving situation such as the toyota acceleration issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100209/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_driver_psychology

"You're stamping on the brakes and your attention is going to be focused on where you're going and steering. There's no cognitive space left to think of alternatives," said Dr. Boadie Dunlop, a psychiatrist and director of the Mood and Anxiety Program at Emory University. "To do something that's not natural, such as turning off the engine, is just not going to come to mind."

Unfortunately, that's likely true in most cases.  My wife would be too busy cursing or screaming to think of doing much else.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 05:04:28 PM
Unfortunately, that's likely true in most cases.  My wife would be too busy cursing or screaming to think of doing much else.

She'll more likely call you on the cell phone than trying to figure it out herself.  :lol:  I know my gf would probably call me crying.. :facepalm:

Quote from: MX793 on February 09, 2010, 04:45:09 PM
"Spinners" (or, as I've heard them called, "Suicide Knobs") are illegal in most places from what I know.

Necker knobs.    Legal in Texas, unless the law came about recently. 

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 09, 2010, 06:42:37 PM
Necker knobs.    Legal in Texas, unless the law came about recently. 

Necker knobs :confused:.  What is a necker?

Quote from: R-inge on February 09, 2010, 04:12:16 PM
Just for the sake of informed discussion, this is how the electronic power assist works on a 07 Pontiac G5.  This would be very similar to the operation of the system in the Toyota, though not necessarily identical:

Sounds similar to the TRW system to be used in the Mazda 2. 

And it seems like a needless complication in an otherwise simple rack and pinion system.  The electrically drivenhydraulic power steering pump in Mazda 3s and 6s.  Works just fine.  Some  of these complex electronic gimicks are turning out to be more trouble than they are worth.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 06:44:16 PM
Necker knobs :confused:.  What is a necker?

If anyone would know that I thought you would as it's a 50's and 60's term and you're close to my age.   The knob, when attached to the steering wheel allows one to steer with the left hand,  leaving the right arm free to be draped over your dates shoulders so you can pull her to your side and start necking. or do a bit of groping.

I also heard on the news this afternoon that Toyota was having a different problem with the steering brake lines on some cars.  A fitting on a power steering  AC hose was rubbing against a hydraulic brake line and causing a possible perforation with the resulting loss of braking.


What next?  Reports of flash fires in the instrument panel?

When it rains it pours.

Another 7,500 Camrys were just recalled for power steering and brake lines.

I don't understand. This generation of Camry was new in 2007, and no one said a thing. Now, all of a sudden, there are all these problems.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 09, 2010, 07:04:16 PM
Another 7,500 Camrys were just recalled for power steering and brake lines.

You're right, it was power steering and brake line interference.  Not AC hose fitting and power steering line interference.

Quote from: 2o6 on February 09, 2010, 07:08:56 PM
I don't understand. This generation of Camry was new in 2007, and no one said a thing. Now, all of a sudden, there are all these problems.

There are recalls all the time. The only difference is that they're getting more coverage.

100 years ago, there was a phenomenon in NY later dubbed the "Lincoln Steffens crime wave" -- basically, when newspapers started covering more crime the public took that to mean that more crime was occurring. That's what we're seeing now with mainstream press stories about recalls and even the opening of NHTSA investigations.

Quote from: ifcar on February 09, 2010, 07:49:30 PM
There are recalls all the time. The only difference is that they're getting more coverage.

100 years ago, there was a phenomenon in NY later dubbed the "Lincoln Steffens crime wave" -- basically, when newspapers started covering more crime the public took that to mean that more crime was occurring. That's what we're seeing now with mainstream press stories about recalls and even the opening of NHTSA investigations.

The Japanese companies I worked were always very good about keeping quality issues quiet.   

It took Honda about eight PCM redesigns to finally get it right back in 1988.  Before that, it took between four and six redesigns before Honda had their head gasket problem figured out...1977-78.

Nissan developed an oil leak from one of their engine from a part that wasn't supposed to wear out...so they didn't offer it in the replacement parts catalog.  The leak was so bad, customers couldn't drive their cars.

Late 80's Tercels had throttle body problems that would stall the engine at any time.  It took a year and a half to figure out the fix. 

This is why I don't believe that a sticking pedal is causing this problem.

Quote from: NomisR on February 09, 2010, 05:09:36 PM
She'll more likely call you on the cell phone than trying to figure it out herself.  :lol:  I know my gf would probably call me crying.. :facepalm:

I was in barracks in KUWAIT when someone got a call from their honey IN THE STATES in a panic because she was lost on the freeway.

Ahhhh the miracles of technology. Call a different Continent for help figuring out which exit to take....

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 09, 2010, 03:20:10 PM

Uncontrollable accelleration, brake failure and now the bloody things won't steer straight.

That's the Corolla's new advertising jingle.

Quote from: Jon? on February 10, 2010, 08:53:45 AM
That's the Corolla's new advertising jingle.

"I love what you do for yourself... Toyota!"

Quote from: 2o6 on February 09, 2010, 07:08:56 PM
I don't understand. This generation of Camry was new in 2007, and no one said a thing. Now, all of a sudden, there are all these problems.

Obamamania and H1N1 have run their course in the media.

Again I remind the audience to ponder the abject ridiculousness of the floor mat recall.

Poor Toyota. Can't catch a break even in snow. A friend of mine snapped this pic Monday...

(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs170.snc3/19759_10100160291730933_5229578_58069277_2665084_n.jpg)

Exactly what I'm talking about; rather than blaming people for being lousy drivers the blame is placed on the car.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2010, 09:03:29 AM
Obamamania and H1N1 have run their course in the media.

Again I remind the audience to ponder the abject ridiculousness of the floor mat recall.

What was ridiculous about it?

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
Exactly what I'm talking about; rather than blaming people for being lousy drivers the blame is placed on the car.

Most of the stuff with Toyotas, however, is NOT driver error. This isn't the Audi situation, nor is the "fix" aimed at correcting driver error, like the Audi "fix" was.

Quote from: ChrisV on February 10, 2010, 10:44:10 AM
Most of the stuff with Toyotas, however, is NOT driver error. This isn't the Audi situation, nor is the "fix" aimed at correcting driver error, like the Audi "fix" was.

I guess one could argue that buying a Toyota in the first place might have been an error.    :lol: :lol: ;)

Seriously, remind me what was the Audi fix?  it's been what? 25 years and I've forgotten.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 09, 2010, 06:51:52 PM
If anyone would know that I thought you would as it's a 50's and 60's term and you're close to my age.   The knob, when attached to the steering wheel allows one to steer with the left hand,  leaving the right arm free to be draped over your dates shoulders so you can pull her to your side and start necking. or do a bit of groping.

I'd made the connection after posting.  However, I'd never heard it called a 'necker knob'.  I guess that term didn't make it up this far.  We just called them spinners.

Quote from: ChrisV on February 10, 2010, 09:24:02 AM
Poor Toyota. Can't catch a break even in snow. A friend of mine snapped this pic Monday...

(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs170.snc3/19759_10100160291730933_5229578_58069277_2665084_n.jpg)

Nothing warms my heart like seeing a Pious dealt a (hopefully) lethal blow!  :clap:


Madman of the People

Quote from: 2o6 on February 09, 2010, 07:08:56 PM
I don't understand. This generation of Camry was new in 2007, and no one said a thing. Now, all of a sudden, there are all these problems.

It wasn't sudden at all.  There had been indications and warnings for some time about an accelleration problem in Toyotas as per...State Farm says it warned NHTSA on Toyota in 2007
(http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jwhsZGkLiVy8vjdii7LLsWETrT3AD9DOQBHO0)

The nation's largest auto insurer said Tuesday it alerted federal safety regulators in late 2007 about a rise in reports of unexpected acceleration in Toyota vehicles, the latest warning sign to emerge about the massive recall.

State Farm insurance said it noticed an uptick in reports of unwanted acceleration in Toyotas from its large customer database and warned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in late 2007. NHTSA officials said the report was reviewed and the agency issued a recall later that month.

NHTSA received complaints about acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles as early as 2003, and congressional investigators are looking into whether the government missed warning signs of the problems. A congressional hearing into the Toyota recalls planned for Wednesday was postponed because of a snowstorm expected to hit the capital.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 10, 2010, 10:52:38 AM

I guess one could argue that buying a Toyota in the first place might have been an error.    :lol: :lol: ;)

Seriously, remind me what was the Audi fix?  it's been what? 25 years and I've forgotten.

Exactly my point!  The buyers should've known not to buy a Toyota to begin with.

As for Audi recall fix, they increase the distance between the gas and brake pedals, adding a device so you can't shift out of park without being on the brakes.  The whole Toyota debacle is sounding vaguely like the Audi mess.  Just waiting for 60 mins to make up the whole story too.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 10, 2010, 10:52:38 AM

I guess one could argue that buying a Toyota in the first place might have been an error.    :lol: :lol: ;)

Seriously, remind me what was the Audi fix?  it's been what? 25 years and I've forgotten.

The Audi fix, applied industry wide, was the interlock that forces you to depress the brake pedal when shifting from park to drive or reverse. Considering the complaints were that the cars shot off like rockets without hitting the gas no matter how hard the driver pressed the brake, this "fix" should not have been effective. The fact that it is proves the issue was driver error, not a fault with the car.

Probably also a testament to how badly people will exaggerate when it comes to stuff like this.  OMChrist my car just took off on its own/shot me into the curb/etc etc.

Quote from: Jon? on February 10, 2010, 09:27:16 AM
What was ridiculous about it?

That it actually occurred; meaning, floor mats cause no such thing as evidenced by common sense, and then of course the follow-on recall for the shim fix for the accelerator assembly.

Eh?  I've heard stories from more than just Toyota owners about similar issues with floor mats.  It wasn't necessarily stupid, just clearly not the root cause as originally thought.

I've heard stories about floor mats concerning lack of acceleration, but not unwanted acceleration.  The whole floor mat issue didn't make sense to me because I didn't see how a floor mat could continue to push down the pedal.  It would have made more sense if the complaint was about no being able to reduce speed.  This repair for sticking gas pedals falls into the same category.  It would explain not being able to slow down, but it doesn't make any sense to blame a sticking pedal for continuously speeding up the vehicle.

Quote from: JWC on February 10, 2010, 02:06:10 PM
I've heard stories about floor mats concerning lack of acceleration, but not unwanted acceleration.  The whole floor mat issue didn't make sense to me because I didn't see how a floor mat could continue to push down the pedal.  It would have made more sense if the complaint was about no being able to reduce speed.  This repair for sticking gas pedals falls into the same category.  It would explain not being able to slow down, but it doesn't make any sense to blame a sticking pedal for continuously speeding up the vehicle.

Holding the accelerator in place causes increased acceleration...

Quote from: ifcar on February 10, 2010, 02:07:20 PM
Holding the accelerator in place causes increased acceleration...

But the floormat would only hold it where it was. Unless these people floor it every time, it shouldn't accelerate a whole lot.

Quote from: ifcar on February 10, 2010, 02:07:20 PM
Holding the accelerator in place causes increased acceleration...

I hold it in place and it works just like cruise control.

I don't believe this is a big conspiracy theory as some do, but..... 

Having worked in the industry, I know that a lot of fixes are to calm the public down until the real fix is found.   What happens is a "cause" is determined and presented to the NHTSA as a fix.  Later, a supplement will follow that takes the recall further and more directly to the cause of the problem.

Quote from: JWC on February 10, 2010, 02:34:56 PM
I hold it in place and it works just like cruise control.

In one particular sweet spot. Any further down and you accelerate.

Quote from: ifcar on February 10, 2010, 02:40:32 PM
In one particular sweet spot. Any further down and you accelerate.

Here, Toyota was saying that if you lay the floor mat on top of the pedal, the floor mat will continue to push down until max speed is reached.  Very unlikely.  As I said, I've seen high idles, but not a continuous increase in speed.   

The issue with the winter floor mats was that you would press the pedal down and when you lifted off the mat would catch the pedal and hold it. 

My issue is....I don't believe it. 

It is just plausible enough to satisfy the general public and the government.   You can tell how accurate a recall fix is by how many times the explanation changes and how many supplements come out over the next year or so.

Quote from: JWC on February 10, 2010, 04:08:00 PM
My issue is....I don't believe it. 

It is just plausible enough to satisfy the general public and the government.   You can tell how accurate a recall fix is by how many times the explanation changes and how many supplements come out over the next year or so.

Do you believe the whole "acceleration" thing is even happening though? 

Quote from: JWC on February 10, 2010, 04:08:00 PM
My issue is....I don't believe it.  

It is just plausible enough to satisfy the general public and the government.   You can tell how accurate a recall fix is by how many times the explanation changes and how many supplements come out over the next year or so.

Bingo. If it was such a widespread problem EVERY automaker would face a recall of millions for the same problem. I believe however that the government had as big a hand or more than Toyota in the ridiculous floor mat elixir.

And I say again, listen to the language of the recall. Both the government and Toyota essentially say, "if this happens, the accelerator can stick in rare cases." They are NOT saying, "the accelerator did stick in rare cases because of this." BIG DIFFERENCE.

Toyota was seemingly being arrogant because as I see it now they found no proof behind the complaints. The media looking for the next big story and others vested in seeing the world's largest and best automaker getting bucked down ran with the story.

Quote from: NomisR on February 10, 2010, 04:17:17 PM
Do you believe the whole "acceleration" thing is even happening though? 

Yes, but I"m more inclined to believe that it is a electronics problem...not physical problem with the gas pedal.  I've been through the Ford 6.0 software fiasco, including DBW failures.  At least the 6.0 just went into limp mode and wouldn't accelerate. 

Cougs, all recalls say "if this happens".  That standard language for a recall. 

The telling part was a Toyota spokesman the other day that said they are still investigating and have not ruled out outside interference or some other cause.

Quote from: JWC on February 10, 2010, 04:27:33 PM
Cougs, all recalls say "if this happens".  That standard language for a recall. 

The telling part was a Toyota spokesman the other day that said they are still investigating and have not ruled out outside interference or some other cause.

Okay, fair enough, but I was more or less referring to press statements, interviews, reports, etc., and other layman communications to the public. Nowhere have I heard a definitive, succinct "this is what caused the problem." It's always been, "if this happens, it may cause the problem."

The floor mat and accelerator shim BS tells me no one knows anything; it's still guess work to appease the public and CYA. Doesn't mean that there isn't a problem but at this point Toyota is desperate to make this PR disaster, shaping up to be one of the worst in modern business times, go away. If that means inventing and playing along with BS excuses, so be it.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2010, 04:41:19 PM
Okay, fair enough, but I was more or less referring to press statements, interviews, reports, etc., and other layman communications to the public. Nowhere have I heard a definitive, succinct "this is what caused the problem." It's always been, "if this happens, it may cause the problem."

The floor mat and accelerator shim BS tells me no one knows anything; it's still guess work to appease the public and CYA. Doesn't mean that there isn't a problem but at this point Toyota is desperate to make this PR disaster, shaping up to be one of the worst in modern business times, go away. If that means inventing and playing along with BS excuses, so be it.

But if they never issued a recall until they actually found the problem would there be any difference?

And interesting read...Toyota loses its way (http://detnews.com/article/20100211/OPINION01/2110340/1148/auto01/Toyota-loses-its-way)


For years, warning signs have clashed with its touted high standards

Five years ago, Yoshi Inaba, then president of Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales operations, disclosed his biggest fear. It was that someday, some flaw in Toyota vehicles might go undetected and cause injuries, or worse, to the company's customers.

Inaba was perhaps thinking of a huge scandal that had just engulfed Mitsubishi Motors Corp., a smaller Japanese carmaker accused of covering up defects for years. Top Mitsubishi executives, including its former president, had been arrested and charged.

Such a nightmare seemed unimaginable at Toyota. It was making the most reliable cars in the industry, and its quality control methods and other elements of the legendary "Toyota Way" were being adopted by its rivals.

But now Inaba, chairman of Toyota Motor Sales and the company's highest-ranking executive in the United States, is confronting a crisis over the safety of Toyota's vehicles and its handling of complaints from customers.

Toyota already has recalled more than 8 million vehicles since September to fix defects that can make it very hard for the driver to stop the car. And American lawmakers are scheduling hearings this month where Inaba will face tough questions.
.
.
.
Around 10 years ago, Audi and other German luxury carmakers introduced an electronic fail-safe system in their cars that would respond to pressure on the brake pedal, even if the gas pedal were depressed and the throttle in an open position.

With prodding from NHTSA, Toyota is now installing an electronic "brake override" not only in recalled vehicles, but also across the entire model range.

A senior U.S.-based Toyota executive suggested such a remedy years ago. It's puzzling that, given the number of complaints, cash-rich Toyota didn't take such a step earlier. The software fix is expected to cost $1 billion -- not a big sum for a company that had more than $30 billion in cash at the end of the last fiscal year.

"I'm sure, in retrospect, they wish they had," says Metro Detroit Toyota dealer Bob Page. The Toyota that won over the American market in the 1970s and 1980s probably would have.

When the words "holy fucking shit!" just aren't enough...

http://jalopnik.com/5469487/toyotas-latest-problem-possessed-lexus-steering-wheels

Wow.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 11, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
When the words "holy fucking shit!" just aren't enough...

http://jalopnik.com/5469487/toyotas-latest-problem-possessed-lexus-steering-wheels

Wow.

Electric motor power steering like the latest Corollas?

Quote from: the Teuton on February 11, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
When the words "holy fucking shit!" just aren't enough...

http://jalopnik.com/5469487/toyotas-latest-problem-possessed-lexus-steering-wheels

Wow.

Now that the Accord is five years old and at about 110k, one car under consideration as a replacement was the IS350, but my gods, what the HELL is that?! I understand passive steering assist, but something that active is just insane (even if it doesn't take over control).

Quote from: GoCougs on February 11, 2010, 09:58:32 AM
Now that the Accord is five years old and at about 110k, one car under consideration as a replacement was the IS350, but my gods, what the HELL is that?! I understand passive steering assist, but something that active is just insane (even if it doesn't take over control).

I'm scared of electronic power steering after this video. Go with a car that has hydraulic steering if you can find one. I think most lux companies still use hydraulic pumps. I know BMW does in all but the upcoming 5er.

This is another reason why I hate the constant push to automate all vehicle systems.  Some stuff makes sense and has been around long enough to be tried and true, but clearly something in the design, engineering, and execution processes is lacking with these systems which could impair the very control of your vehicle.

Quote from: R-inge on February 11, 2010, 10:14:29 AM
This is another reason why I hate the constant push to automate all vehicle systems.  Some stuff makes sense and has been around long enough to be tried and true, but clearly something in the design, engineering, and execution processes is lacking with these systems which could impair the very control of your vehicle.

+1

Hear, hear.

Active suspensions, active steering, throttles no longer connected directly to the throttle plates and Mercedes brake-by-wire are all expensive and complicated solutions to relatively simple problems. I know manufacturers are trying to one-up each other with technology, as the basic construction of cars has become a science almost any company can accomplish, but I think we've reached the point of excess here. 

Automakers are actually taking the tack of airline manufacturers. In practice fly(drive)-by-wire systems are more reliable and higher performance than their mechanical counterparts. However, this requires that the fly(drive)-by-wire systems have to be done correctly.

Quote from: 3.0L V6 on February 11, 2010, 10:21:57 AM
+1

Hear, hear.

Active suspensions, active steering, throttles no longer connected directly to the throttle plates and Mercedes brake-by-wire are all expensive and complicated solutions to relatively simple problems. I know manufacturers are trying to one-up each other with technology, as the basic construction of cars has become a science almost any company can accomplish, but I think we've reached the point of excess here.  

Take a look at general aviation airplanes like the 172 I fly.  The first 172 took to the skies in 1956, 54 years ago.  Back then most cars had manual hydraulic brakes, manual geared steering  (recirculating ball, worm and sector or rack and pinion).  Optional was vacuum assisted brakes and hydraulic power steering, with the hydraulic pump driven as an engine accessory.  Back then the control surfaces on the Cessna were controlled by cables conected to the rudder pedals and yoke, running through pulleys to the contral surfaces.


Today cars are increasingly adding electronic augments to the basic controls, further complicating the basic system.   Meanwhile the newest Cessna 172 you can buy today comes with control surfaces controlled by cables conected to the rudder pedals and yoke, running through pulleys to the contral surfaces.

Why, because it's a tried and true system that is simple, rather foolproof, easy to understand and highly reliable.   There's a lesson there.
     

Quote from: GoCougs on February 11, 2010, 10:30:54 AM
Automakers are actually taking the tack of airline manufacturers. In practice fly(drive)-by-wire systems are more reliable and higher performance than their mechanical counterparts. However, this requires that the fly(drive)-by-wire systems have to be done correctly.

The cost pressures placed on auto makers probably makes them more likely to take shortcuts.

Boeing and Airbus can't totally phone in a design, what with the FAA breathing down their backs and the long service life of their planes.

Quote from: the Teuton on February 11, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
When the words "holy fucking shit!" just aren't enough...

http://jalopnik.com/5469487/toyotas-latest-problem-possessed-lexus-steering-wheels

Wow.

That's funny.  I had an old RS Steering wheel I used for racing games on my pc that used to do that when you plugged it in.  It was doing its calibration.  Maybe they're getting steering wheels from the same company?

Quote from: GoCougs on February 11, 2010, 10:30:54 AM
Automakers are actually taking the tack of airline manufacturers. In practice fly(drive)-by-wire systems are more reliable and higher performance than their mechanical counterparts. However, this requires that the fly(drive)-by-wire systems have to be done correctly.

AND hours and hours of maintenance every now and again.

I don't like this, not at all. Seriously, the steering, brakes, and shutoff need to work on my cars or else!   :lockedup:

Quote from: the Teuton on February 11, 2010, 10:06:07 AM
I'm scared of electronic power steering after this video. Go with a car that has hydraulic steering if you can find one. I think most lux companies still use hydraulic pumps. I know BMW does in all but the upcoming 5er.

If you've ever been in the middle of a turn and had a conventional power assist steering system fail, throw a belt, blow a line, ect. you would realize its not any better...

At least it's not going to rip the wheel out of your hands.

Quote from: Jon? on February 11, 2010, 10:46:02 AM
That's funny.  I had an old RS Steering wheel I used for racing games on my pc that used to do that when you plugged it in.  It was doing its calibration.  Maybe they're getting steering wheels from the same company?

I think it's a physical steering problem rather than faulty drive-by-wire.



There was a video of an Eagle Summit with bad power steering doing the same thing.

Even so, did anyone notice the "caution" message on the screen as well as the lights on the dash?

Lexus is taking aim at Ford.  I was just listening to the radio and the local Lexus dealership starts out with: "Is a new Edge, Flex, or Explorer in your future?  Now you can add Lexus to that list."

Quote from: SVT666 on February 11, 2010, 02:38:11 PM
Lexus is taking aim at Ford.  I was just listening to the radio and the local Lexus dealership starts out with: "Is a new Edge, Flex, or Explorer in your future?  Now you can add Lexus to that list."

With what? Discounts?

Quote from: SVT666 on February 11, 2010, 02:38:11 PM
Lexus is taking aim at Ford.  I was just listening to the radio and the local Lexus dealership starts out with: "Is a new Edge, Flex, or Explorer in your future?  Now you can add Lexus to that list."

They mad.

Quote from: SVT666 on February 11, 2010, 02:38:11 PM
Lexus is taking aim at Ford.  I was just listening to the radio and the local Lexus dealership starts out with: "Is a new Edge, Flex, or Explorer in your future?  Now you can add Lexus to that list."

What does that even mean? Buy an Explorer, get a free Lexus?

I'm not sure what they're implying, either...

"We suck now, so we should be on the same list as Ford." 

?

Quote from: giant_mtb on February 11, 2010, 06:10:54 PM
They mad.

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/DJReeg21/u-mad___camron.jpg)

Quote from: R-inge on February 11, 2010, 11:37:26 AM
At least it's not going to rip the wheel out of your hands.

depending on the turn, your speed, and how heavy you were gripping the wheel.... yes it will

Having driven cars where belts have jumped, including a Pacer that the engine stalled traveling downhill on Mt. Diablo, steering is not a problem.  I've never had power steering suddenly quit and have the wheel ripped from my hand.

Power steering is great in a parking lot maneuver, but I've never had a problem steering a vehicle whose power steering is disabled even when it happened unexpectedly.

From what someone showed, aftermarket HID's can actually short out something, and cause this.

Quote from: 2o6 on February 12, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
From what someone showed, aftermarket HID's can actually short out something, and cause this.

Steering, acceleration or braking? 

Quote from: NomisR on February 12, 2010, 10:11:43 AM
Steering, acceleration or braking?  

I believe "The Phantom" had problems with non-OEM HID's in his Acura, but I can't remember the details.  

Ford sent dealers a notice four or five years ago about aftermarket HID's affecting the PCM.  Since almost everything goes through the PCM, there is the  potential for several systems to be affected.

Quote from: JWC on February 12, 2010, 10:22:07 AM
I believe "The Phantom" had problems with non-OEM HID's in his Acura, but I can't remember the details. 

Ford sent dealers a notice four or five years ago about aftermarket HID's affecting the PCM.  Since almost everything goes through the PCM, there is the  potential for several systems to be affected.

I guess I'll just keep my RSX as is then... and good thing the Elise is so simple, even the ECU is pretty archaic so nothing should be effected by it... although it's DBW..

Quote from: JWC on February 12, 2010, 06:25:16 AM
Having driven cars where belts have jumped, including a Pacer that the engine stalled traveling downhill on Mt. Diablo, steering is not a problem.  I've never had power steering suddenly quit and have the wheel ripped from my hand.

Power steering is great in a parking lot maneuver, but I've never had a problem steering a vehicle whose power steering is disabled even when it happened unexpectedly.

I wish i could find a video of an old Ford Probe Owners meet... everyone is flying around a bend and one cars hydraulic assist blows out and then a second later starts working and he goes flying into a tree

Quote from: r0tor on February 12, 2010, 10:50:54 AM
I wish i could find a video of an old Ford Probe Owners meet... everyone is flying around a bend and one cars hydraulic assist blows out and then a second later starts working and he goes flying into a tree

Which proves????

I was traveling down Mt. Diablo in a AMC Pacer at 50mph when I lost power steering, brakes, and engine.  I "drove" it to the next turnout without going over the side.   

Quote from: r0tor on February 12, 2010, 10:50:54 AM
I wish i could find a video of an old Ford Probe Owners meet... everyone is flying around a bend and one cars hydraulic assist blows out and then a second later starts working and he goes flying into a tree

Does that prove that it's the car's fault or the driver's fault?  If I lose power assist I can still steer the car, it just takes more effort.  Sounds like this guy was trying to muscle the wheel around and the assist came back on and he essentially oversteered.  My old probe was hydraulic with a belt driven pump.  Was this one any different?

Quote from: JWC on February 12, 2010, 06:25:16 AM
Having driven cars where belts have jumped, including a Pacer that the engine stalled traveling downhill on Mt. Diablo, steering is not a problem.  I've never had power steering suddenly quit and have the wheel ripped from my hand.

Power steering is great in a parking lot maneuver, but I've never had a problem steering a vehicle whose power steering is disabled even when it happened unexpectedly.

Depends on the vehicle.  Something big and heavy...  I drove my buddy's Suburban a few hundred miles after the power steering went... we had to change drivers every half hour due to arm fatigue.

Why would you need power steering and brakes in a Pacer? :huh:

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2010, 11:30:40 AM
Why would you need power steering and brakes in a Pacer? :huh:

Why do you need them in econoboxes??   :huh:

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2010, 11:30:40 AM
Why would you need power steering and brakes in a Pacer? :huh:

Both were quite handy driving down a twisting mountain road.

Nah, failed power-assist won't jerk the wheel and throw you into a tree. Obviously effort will increase dramatically, and if you're not expecting it could be quite distracting, but it's not going take control as a failed active system failing would (like that of the IS350 vid).

Quote from: J86 on February 12, 2010, 11:30:21 AM
Depends on the vehicle.  Something big and heavy...  I drove my buddy's Suburban a few hundred miles after the power steering went... we had to change drivers every half hour due to arm fatigue.

I guess that depends on the size of the tires and how good of shape you're in.  I've driven F250 diesels without power steering and it wasn't a problem till we arrived at the dealership and I had to pull onto the rack.  I couldn't turn the wheel fast enough to make the turn.

BTW, if you do so with a Ford (not sure about others) expect a big mess.  Without the pump running, it pushes the fluid past the cap and all over everything.

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2010, 11:30:40 AM
Why would you need power steering and brakes in a Pacer? :huh:

Don't need, but with the industry's profoundly improved manufacturing, business and competition environments WRT to the 1970s, the cost to add power steering and/or brakes to your average economy today car I bet adds no more than $100 to MSRP.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 12, 2010, 11:29:25 AM
Does that prove that it's the car's fault or the driver's fault?  If I lose power assist I can still steer the car, it just takes more effort.  Sounds like this guy was trying to muscle the wheel around and the assist came back on and he essentially oversteered.  My old probe was hydraulic with a belt driven pump.  Was this one any different?

I'd question the guy's pre-race prep.  Did he have any PS leaks or oil leaks that would get on the belt and cause it to slip?>Why would power steering quit, then reengage?

Re-reading it though, indicates it wasn't the loss of power steering that was the problem, but the opposite.

Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 12, 2010, 11:29:25 AM
Does that prove that it's the car's fault or the driver's fault?  If I lose power assist I can still steer the car, it just takes more effort.  Sounds like this guy was trying to muscle the wheel around and the assist came back on and he essentially oversteered. 

Yes thats exactly what happened... It went out, he muscled up, it came back and he whacked a tree head-on.

I'm just stating here how "old dumb tech" can be just as frightening when it fails as new technology

Quote from: r0tor on February 12, 2010, 12:56:40 PM
Yes thats exactly what happened... It went out, he muscled up, it came back and he whacked a tree head-on.

I'm just stating here how "old dumb tech" can be just as frightening when it fails as new technology

No power steering, problem solved..

Quote from: Laconian on February 11, 2010, 10:43:14 AM
Boeing and Airbus can't totally phone in a design, what with the FAA breathing down their backs and the long service life of their planes.

Not to mention that both Airbus and Boeing bet the whole company with every new product.

A little more to add to this sorry saga...

Quote
Former U.S. Attorney David Kelley will oversee Toyota Motor Corp.'s compliance with a deferred prosecution agreement with the Justice Department after the automaker was charged with defrauding consumers by issuing misleading statements over unintended acceleration recalls.

On March 19, the Japanese automaker agreed to a $1.2 billion settlement of a four-year government investigation imposing the largest-ever fine on an automaker in U.S. history after it was charged with a single felony count of wire fraud. Toyota, the world's largest automaker and largest retail seller in the United States, pleaded not guilty but acknowledged wrongdoing. Under the terms of the agreement, the charge will be dismissed if the automaker complies with the agreement.

read more...Former U.S. attorney to monitor Toyota safety efforts (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140813/AUTO0104/308130021/0/auto01/Former-U-S-attorney-monitor-Toyota-safety-efforts)

To be fair, Toyota has cleaned up its act after admitting to deceiving and lying to its customers about safety issues.


A picture that's worth a thousand words...
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20140813&Category=AUTO0104&ArtNo=308130021&Ref=AR&MaxW=640&Border=0&Former-U-S-attorney-monitor-Toyota-safety-efforts)

Actually, was/is Toyota exonerated on technical safety issues, they were just difficult in the aftermath of the witch hunt.

Good on them I say. Government regulation is the real safety issue.

Quote from: GoCougs on August 13, 2014, 01:42:36 PM
Actually, was/is Toyota exonerated on technical safety issues, they were just difficult in the aftermath of the witch hunt.

Good on them I say. Government regulation is the real safety issue.

antithesisSPIN...