Toyota: It's Getting Even Worse
By John Rosevear
February 17, 2010
Toyota (NYSE: TM) has been on the hot seat for months over safety defects with a number of different vehicle models. The problem, as you'll recall, isn't so much the safety issues -- they're bad and they need fixing -- as it is the company's longtime pattern of responding to problems with a mix of denial and foot-shuffling.
News flash: We can apparently add "regulatory bamboozlement" to that list.
According to Bloomberg, Toyota's Washington office hired former regulators from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the car-safety arm of the Department of Transportation, and put them to work talking NHTSA out of forcing Toyota to recall cars.
It'd be easy to say, "Eh, that's business nowadays, they all do it," except that they don't: Ford (NYSE: F), General Motors, Chrysler, and Honda (NYSE: HMC) all say they have exactly zero ex-NHTSA people employed to deal with the agency on defects.
Toyota, once again, is a unique special flower.
It isn't going away
All of this negative news coverage has had at least two effects: Toyota's sales seem to have taken a hit, and officials in high places in both the U.S. and Japan have gotten cranky. On Tuesday, the Department of Transportation ordered Toyota to turn over documents related to the various safety issues. That may not sound like a big deal, but it is -- the DOT is aggressively looking for evidence that Toyota knew of safety defects but didn't take appropriate action.
And if they find that evidence? Oh boy. With Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood personally involved, it's clear that the heat -- inside NHTSA and inside Toyota -- is now intense.
Is there fire behind the smoke?
Meanwhile, the company's senior management keeps trying to beat back the flames. In a press conference in Tokyo on Wednesday, Toyota made a number of interesting revelations:
The Corolla could be next. Responding to reports of steering issues with the Corolla, Toyota said that they are actively investigating and made a point of noting that they are considering a recall. The Corolla is the world's best-selling car. A global recall, for a serious safety defect, would be a huge deal.
Brake-system modification to become standard on all new Toyotas. Control systems will be modified to ensure that pressing the brake pedal always overcomes acceleration. (Yes, fellow car geeks, this one's an eyebrow-raiser. I look forward to your comments.)
Toyota is creating a global quality task force. You mean they didn't have one already? Seriously?
Toyota will add more black-box recorders. Sounds great, but these are supposed to become mandatory in the U.S. by 2012 anyway.
Toyota is cutting production due to declining sales. Two U.S. factories will be idled for a combined total of 14 days. The company estimates that it has lost 100,000 sales due to the safety mess during this fiscal year, which ends in March.
Also, company president Akio Toyoda said that yeah, maybe they've overreached a little: "The basic rule of the Toyota Production System is to only build as many cars as there is demand for, and we ourselves broke that rule."
That's nice to hear, but it's not even the beginning of enough.
The upshot
Most consumer-facing companies have recalls every now and then -- Johnson & Johnson (NYSE: JNJ), Mattel (NYSE: MAT), Campbell Soup (NYSE: CPB), Newell Rubbermaid (NYSE: NWL) ... I could go on and on, and I haven't even mentioned the other automakers. But all of those companies have had their share of recalls, as have many others.
The recalls, by themselves, aren't Toyota's big issue. The issue is what have they been hiding? And more to the point, can we trust their products?
With Congressional hearings starting later this month, and the full attention of regulatory bigwigs focused on finding smoking guns in the interim, it isn't going to get easier for Toyota any time soon. How bad will the damage be long-term? Only time will tell.
How the mighty fall.
Mix a few cocktails this evening, eh guv'na?
Yikes. This could be a real disaster. But sometimes a correction like this is good for the system.
Go to hell, Toyota! :rockon:
Ol' Akio isn't showing up to the congressional hearings either.
With the economy in the shape it's in you don't want to hear about assembly line stoppage and less consumer confidence, but if the end result is that people who would never look at a domestic brand finally samples what they have on offer, I guess that works.
One has to be extremely naive if one doesn't believe that ANY large business worth its salt doesn't hire IP lawyers to skirt patents, or trial lawyers to skirt business regulations, or environmental lawyers to skirt environmental regulations.
Makes me kind of glad I don't work for Toyota anymore.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 17, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
One has to be extremely naive if one doesn't believe that ANY large business worth its salt doesn't hire IP lawyers to skirt patents, or trial lawyers to skirt business regulations, or environmental lawyers to skirt environmental regulations.
AMEN! Every large company has its own dirty laundry.
I'm contemplating buying Toyota stock. The public has massively overreacted. Sure, Toyota took some shortcuts in its designs... and?
Every car is built to a cost.
Quote from: Laconian on February 17, 2010, 07:33:54 PM
AMEN! Every large company has its own dirty laundry.
I'm contemplating buying Toyota stock. The public has massively overreacted. Sure, Toyota took some shortcuts in its designs... and? Every car is built to a cost.
Peel back the onion of a Ford or GM and you'll surely find all sorts of behind-the-scenes maneuvering that some or many would find unseemly.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 17, 2010, 03:54:27 PM
Ol' Akio isn't showing up to the congressional hearings either.
This guy makes me facepalm. He just doesn't get it, does he?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 17, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
One has to be extremely naive if one doesn't believe that ANY large business worth its salt doesn't hire IP lawyers to skirt patents, or trial lawyers to skirt business regulations, or environmental lawyers to skirt environmental regulations.
What the hell do you think I'm in law school for. :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on February 17, 2010, 07:33:54 PM
AMEN! Every large company has its own dirty laundry.
I'm contemplating buying Toyota stock. The public has massively overreacted. Sure, Toyota took some shortcuts in its designs... and? Every car is built to a cost.
What's their stock done in the last couple of months? Crashed like a rock?
Quote from: Rupert on February 18, 2010, 12:10:49 AM
What's their stock done in the last couple of months? Crashed like a rock?
All the gains since the big crash have been erased and then some. It's like at 2003 levels.
Quote from: Rupert on February 18, 2010, 12:10:49 AM
What's their stock done in the last couple of months? Crashed like a rock?
It was just above $90 around Jan. 18th or so...now it sits around $75.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 18, 2010, 12:14:43 AM
It was just above $90 around Jan. 18th or so...now it sits around $75.
I'm surprised that's all of the hit its taken. I was thinking it'd go down to $50-60.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 12:17:47 AM
I'm surprised that's all of the hit its taken. I was thinking it'd go down to $50-60.
As was I, really. That'd put it right back down to its 52-week low from back in March, which was about $56. Perhaps as the scandals continue to hit the news, it'll continue falling. Seems to be becoming more stable, but it's probably a very news-driven stock, so we'll just hafta see how much more dirt the media/government digs up. :mask:
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 18, 2010, 12:21:54 AM
As was I, really. That'd put it right back down to its 52-week low from back in March, which was about $56. Perhaps as the scandals continue to hit the news, it'll continue falling. Seems to be becoming more stable, but it's probably a very news-driven stock, so we'll just hafta see how much more dirt the media/government digs up. :mask:
I wonder if the news companies are making money by short-selling the companies they are harping on.
Quote from: Laconian on February 18, 2010, 12:23:16 AM
I wonder if the news companies are making money by short-selling the companies they are harping on.
Probs.
You guys should read some Toyota/Lexus forums for enjoyment. Over there the folks talk about only two things: quality and reliability. All the time. Every friggin thread comes down to those two words. A topic on a friggin Pagani Zonda will turn into a Toyota quality vs "unheard of, overpriced and ugly Italian car maker with typical shabby Italian build quality" thread. :facepalm:
The general consensus on those forums is that "Toyota is just fine and the media is overblowing things". Funny. When another car brand experiences recalls or quality problems those guys are the first to complain, make an elephant out of a fly and generally just bad mouth the brand. But when their precious, overrated Toyota is in the same boat, it's the fault of the media. Suuuuuuure. :wtf:
I must admit there is a bit of Schadenfreude in me at the moment. :tounge:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 18, 2010, 02:30:44 AM
You guys should read some Toyota/Lexus forums for enjoyment. Over there the folks talk about only two things: quality and reliability. All the time. Every friggin thread comes down to those two words. A topic on a friggin Pagani Zonda will turn into a Toyota quality vs "unheard of, overpriced and ugly Italian car maker with typical shabby Italian build quality" thread. :facepalm:
The general consensus on those forums is that "Toyota is just fine and the media is overblowing things". Funny. When another car brand experiences recalls or quality problems those guys are the first to complain, make an elephant out of a fly and generally just bad mouth the brand. But when their precious, overrated Toyota is in the same boat, it's the fault of the media. Suuuuuuure. :wtf:
I must admit there is a bit of Schadenfreude in me at the moment. :tounge:
No Lexuses that compete with MBs have been caught in the melee. They are still better cars.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 18, 2010, 02:30:44 AM
I must admit there is a bit of Schadenfreude in me at the moment. :tounge:
+1
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 18, 2010, 05:47:52 AM
No Lexuses that compete with MBs have been caught in the melee. They are still better cars.
What difference does it make if MB makes a competitor?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 17, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
One has to be extremely naive if one doesn't believe that ANY large business worth its salt doesn't hire IP lawyers to skirt patents, or trial lawyers to skirt business regulations, or environmental lawyers to skirt environmental regulations.
Twenty years ago, well, even as recently as ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. But not today. After the Ford Explorer mess, Enron, and many other incidents involving financial houses, most companies are tryuing to play it pretty straightforward and up front. Media exposure, the internet -where a stray memo get worldwide coverage in hours, The ability of people to access information that was impossible just a decade ago means the risk of exposure is really too great.
You're right in that the large corporations have large legal staffs, but it's my experience, and I work with our lawyers daily on IP issues, work more to keep the company within legal bounds rather than searching for that elusive gap in the rules. Also most legal departments are more involved in cleaning up the mess left when the commercial side of the house does something they shouldn't have; something that could have been avoided had they first consulted with the legal dept.
Toyota's mistake, IMO, is their arrogance, they seem to think they can get a way with stuff becasue they are Toyota. They've gne farther with this than most companies would have. That might have worked ten years ago, but not today. Couple that with the smell of covering up complaints and this situation is ripe to explode in Toyota's face.
I heard this morning on the news that Gov Rick Perry (Texas) is asking congress to "go easy on Toyota". Remember Texas gave Toyota a sweetheart deal to locate the Tundra plant in the San Antonio area a few years ago.
More on this. I love this from the sotry: "I am concerned about the safety issue but at the same time I want to make sure that we balance this with jobs at a company that's been good for the United States," said Mr. Cuellar, the lone Texan on the House oversight committee, which plans to take on the Toyota recalls at a hearing Wednesday." So are we planning to trade lives for jobs?
Politicians Rally to Toyota's Side
Lawmakers Worried About Jobs Wonder Whether U.S. Is Being Overzealous By NEIL KING JR.
Nearly 1,900 people work at the Toyota Motor Corp. truck factory that skirts Rep. Henry Cuellar's district in South Texas. The San Antonio Democrat also sits on a House committee that is digging into the car maker's safety problems, with hearings planned for next week.
All of which explains why Texas Gov. Rick Perry called Mr. Cuellar last week to put in a plug for Toyota.
"He said, 'Hey, Henry, will you please look at the other side of the issue? They have been a good company...Let's not pummel Toyota,"' Mr. Cuellar said of the conversation, which Gov. Perry's office confirmed.
A number of prominent politicians are going so far as to question the motives surrounding the federal safety probe. In a sign of how much the political landscape has shifted since the Japan-bashing of 20 years ago, a group of governors are siding with Toyota in the safety probe, while subtly jabbing at the safety records of U.S. car companies.
Their stance reflects lingering unease among conservatives over the government ownership stakes in General Motors Co. and Chrysler Group LLC, but also how entrenched foreign-owned car makers now are in much of the heartland.
Republican governors Mitch Daniels of Indiana, Haley Barbour of Mississippi, and Bob Riley of Alabama, as well as Democrat Steve Beshear of Kentucky, jumped into the fray with a letter last week to key congressional chairmen.
In the letter, sent to the heads of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce as well as the House oversight committee, the governors described Toyota as a victim of an overly aggressive press and said the company had responded to its safety problems in a more "emphatic manner" than any other car company under scrutiny by the Department of Transportation.
The governors then questioned whether federal regulators could be fair toward Toyota, considering the government's "obvious conflict of interest because of its huge financial stakes" in GM and Chrysler.
Mr. Daniels "was making an appeal for basic fairness," said the governor's spokeswoman.
Gov. Perry sent his own letter Tuesday to Rep. Joe Barton, a fellow Texan and the ranking Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which plans to hold Toyota hearings Tuesday. Gov. Perry lamented that "negative news [on Toyota] is being encouraged by plaintiffs' trial lawyers, union activists and those interested in cutting into Toyota's market share."
Administration officials reject the suggestion there is any conflict in their oversight of Toyota. "We take auto safety very seriously and base all decisions for investigations on the merits of the data regardless of who manufactures the vehicle," said Olivia Alair, spokeswoman for Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.
Toyota has major car-assembly and engine plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Alabama and Texas, as well as in West Virginia, employing close to 18,000 people combined. The company has temporarily halted a $1.3 billion Prius factory in Mississippi that is meant to employ 2,000 workers.
U.S. Toyota officials insist they had no hand in the governors' missive, but they did applaud it afterward. Toyota officials also have been reaching out to lawmakers like Mr. Cuellar, who are worried that a sustained dent to Toyota's reputation could hurt jobs in their districts.
"I am concerned about the safety issue but at the same time I want to make sure that we balance this with jobs at a company that's been good for the United States," said Mr. Cuellar, the lone Texan on the House oversight committee, which plans to take on the Toyota recalls at a hearing Wednesday.
In Japan, some Toyota executives have privately questioned whether the U.S. government's majority ownership of GM has colored the Toyota investigation. GM is Toyota's largest competitor, both in the U.S. and overseas. One senior Japanese auto executive in the U.S. described the probe as "60% political," and asked whether federal regulators were "trying to help GM by vilifying Toyota."
Toyota's troubles have caused discomfort in congressional offices with ties to the auto maker. When Ford Motor Co. was embroiled in a recall furor a decade ago over Explorer rollovers, the Senate Commerce Committee?then chaired by Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain?swiftly launched an investigation and called top Ford executives to testify.
The current committee chairman, West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, has proceeded more cautiously in the case of Toyota, a company he spent years luring to his state. The auto giant has invested over $1 billion in West Virginia since 1995, and employs almost 1,200 people. The Democratic senator has a page on his Web site devoted to Toyota's role in the state.
The committee's staff is now gathering materials on safety complaints from both Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Sen. Rockefeller plans to hold a hearing on the matter March 2.
In a statement, his office said the senator's "primary focus has been on passenger safety and how well our monitoring and recall procedures work to protect passengers." At the same time, the statement praised how Toyota was "making every effort to minimize the impact on its U.S. work force."
The more people who die in fiery Toyota crashes, the fewer jobs we'll need.
Eh everyone makes a bit deal about this, but usually these things tend to blow over. I'm not worried about Toyota in the least.
The automakers in trouble are still the domestics. Flashpoints like this aren't what kill automakers. The Corvair didn't bankrupt GM. The Explorer controversy didn't obliterate Ford. People get all angry for a while, and then they forget. What kills automakers is years and decades of mediocrity. What bankrupted GM in the end wasn't something dangerous or shocking in the short term, they were products disappointing and uncompetitive in the long run.
Toyota will fix this, Consumer reports will put them back on the recommended list, Toyota goes back to being anal retentive about car quality, and life goes back to normal. The domestics think this is somehow their golden moment to get ahead. They are in for a massive disappointment if they think so. The only way for domestics to fight back is with decades of continued products clearly consistently superior to the competition. That is the only way.
QuoteIt'd be easy to say, "Eh, that's business nowadays, they all do it," except that they don't: Ford (NYSE: F), General Motors, Chrysler, and Honda (NYSE: HMC) all say they have exactly zero ex-NHTSA people employed to deal with the agency on defects.
Toyota, once again, is a unique special flower.
like i'd believe for a split second that Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Honda don't employ a fair amount of lobyists to sway government lawmaking and industry rulings
:rolleyes:
Quote from: 565 on February 18, 2010, 08:53:47 AM
The Explorer controversy didn't obliterate Ford.
What car company has had such widespread issues happen all at once? If the Explorer, Focus, F150, Taurus, and Mustang all had line wide recalls within a month, it might have obliterated Ford.
I think it's safe to say that this is a unique situation, and judging it against single model recalls in the past (that didn't result in a stoppage of sale, no less) is nowhere near accurate.
Quote from: J86 on February 17, 2010, 10:20:18 PM
What the hell do you think I'm in law school for. :lol:
And you'll likely make a nice tidy sum too.
Quote from: Raza on February 18, 2010, 09:10:57 AM
What car company has had such widespread issues happen all at once? If the Explorer, Focus, F150, Taurus, and Mustang all had line wide recalls within a month, it might have obliterated Ford.
I think it's safe to say that this is a unique situation, and judging it against single model recalls in the past (that didn't result in a stoppage of sale, no less) is nowhere near accurate.
I guess we'll have to wait and see. I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 18, 2010, 06:44:19 AM
Twenty years ago, well, even as recently as ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. But not today. After the Ford Explorer mess, Enron, and many other incidents involving financial houses, most companies are tryuing to play it pretty straightforward and up front. Media exposure, the internet -where a stray memo get worldwide coverage in hours, The ability of people to access information that was impossible just a decade ago means the risk of exposure is really too great.
You're right in that the large corporations have large legal staffs, but it's my experience, and I work with our lawyers daily on IP issues, work more to keep the company within legal bounds rather than searching for that elusive gap in the rules. Also most legal departments are more involved in cleaning up the mess left when the commercial side of the house does something they shouldn't have; something that could have been avoided had they first consulted with the legal dept.
Toyota's mistake, IMO, is their arrogance, they seem to think they can get a way with stuff becasue they are Toyota. They've gne farther with this than most companies would have. That might have worked ten years ago, but not today. Couple that with the smell of covering up complaints and this situation is ripe to explode in Toyota's face.
I heard this morning on the news that Gov Rick Perry (Texas) is asking congress to "go easy on Toyota". Remember Texas gave Toyota a sweetheart deal to locate the Tundra plant in the San Antonio area a few years ago.
Sorry, I think you're being extremely naive on this. What was alleged, with what I might add no documentation whatsoever other than Toyota employed ex-NHTSA employees, is in effect lobbying. All companies do this; both formally and informally.
I not only work with IP lawyers I know a couple. Know a lot of what they do? Brutally dissect patents such that the companies they work for can find errors or easy outs to be able to copy the IP yet (hopefully) skirt or at least have a good defense in the event of a lawsuit. Underhanded or unseemly? Maybe to the layman, but working the system is just how business works.
This may very well continue to explode in Toyota's face but not because they're weren't doing anything different. In fact, my bet is that Ford and GM are doing FAR more backroom socio-political maneuvering given how dire and precarious their current financial positions are, and given their other complications Toyota doesn't have in the US (UAW, quasi-nationalization, etc.).
Quote from: 565 on February 18, 2010, 09:17:48 AM
I guess we'll have to wait and see. I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.
If it stops here, I too think Toyota will recover.
Unscathed, however, is where I disagree.
Quote from: 565 on February 18, 2010, 09:17:48 AM
I guess we'll have to wait and see. I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.
If they play it right they will, and can perhaps even parlay it into even better cache with the car buying public. For example, look at the unprecedented frame replacement/buy-back program on first generation Tacomas. Sucks for the people who had the problem, but after a time many of those people respect what Toyota did. In the (long) end WRT to the Tacoma problem, Toyota comes out a bigger winner than if the supplier hadn't botched the frames in the first place.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on February 18, 2010, 05:47:52 AM
No Lexuses that compete with MBs have been caught in the melee. They are still better cars.
Yup, say what you will about styling, level of luxury, or whatever, but at the end of the day Lexus builds a higher quality and more reliable product than Mercedes-Benz.
There's a girl in one of my classes who is having second thoughts about buying a Yaris soon. I don't think the Yaris has ever been recalled, though.
Quote from: Raza on February 18, 2010, 09:42:29 AM
If it stops here, I too think Toyota will recover. Unscathed, however, is where I disagree.
Some folks who wouldn't dream of looking elsewhere for their vehicles might now be more inclined to do so. That might be an issue for them, especially if their main drawing point, reliability, is in question.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 18, 2010, 09:48:30 AM
Yup, say what you will about styling, level of luxury, or whatever, but at the end of the day Lexus builds a higher quality and more reliable product than Mercedes-Benz.
Despite the fact that I generally like MBs more than Lexuses (Lexii?), I can't argue with that.
MB went down the tubes and still hasn't quite recovered. They may say the new W212 is "built to a standard, not a price," but I still think it's just okay for the class. Nothing special. It's also butt ugly, but thats another matter altogether.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 09:52:17 AM
There's a girl in one of my classes who is having second thoughts about buying a Yaris soon. I don't think the Yaris has ever been recalled, though.
Tell her there are bigger reasons not to buy a Yaris then a fiery high speed crash. That's just a minor reason.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 18, 2010, 10:13:38 AM
Tell her there are bigger reasons not to buy a Yaris then a fiery high speed crash. That's just a minor reason.
I was going to tell her to get a Fiesta instead.
Maybe I'll do that. :lol:
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/02/19/business/19toyota1/19toyota1-articleInline.jpg)
"ORLY"
Quote from: 565 on February 18, 2010, 08:53:47 AM
The domestics think this is somehow their golden moment to get ahead. They are in for a massive disappointment if they think so. The only way for domestics to fight back is with decades of continued products clearly consistently superior to the competition. That is the only way.
Exactly.. I mean look at how far Hyundai has come in terms of quality and reputation compared to where they were in the 80s or even early 90s. Detroit should look to the Koreans as an example on how to rebuild their brand
Quote from: 565 on February 18, 2010, 08:53:47 AM
The only way for domestics to fight back is with decades of continued products clearly consistently superior to the competition. That is the only way.
The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product
without even considering alternatives.
Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.
Quote from: NomisR on February 18, 2010, 10:52:41 AM
Exactly.. I mean look at how far Hyundai has come in terms of quality and reputation compared to where they were in the 80s or even early 90s. Detroit should look to the Koreans as an example on how to rebuild their brand
One big difference is that Detroit has already burned a large portion of the population. When Hyundais were total garbage, almost no one was buying them to experience them firsthand. But millions and millions of people have had American-made lemons at some point.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2010, 10:02:00 AM
Despite the fact that I generally like MBs more than Lexuses (Lexii?), I can't argue with that.
MB went down the tubes and still hasn't quite recovered. They may say the new W212 is "built to a standard, not a price," but I still think it's just okay for the class. Nothing special. It's also butt ugly, but thats another matter altogether.
Mercedes took a dive from 1998 to 2003, at which point they started their return to pre-98' levels of quality. This was most notable with the introduction of the current CL and S-class. Most models are there, though, I'd say I'm not sure the ML is as good as it could be....
Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.
I definitely don't agree that its the most solid in its class.
Actually, I think those honors go to Audi.
Yes, I've been in a W212.
Quote from: Submariner on February 18, 2010, 11:40:21 AM
Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.
In most areas yes, however what is unexceptable is that the I4s are only being offered with the 5 speed autos. Offering 90s technology on such an expensive car is inexcusable.
Also the new I4 diesel has already been recalled do to the injectors failing. Some customers had an injector fail after only a few hundred kms, some already went through two or three injectors. However the problem seems to be solved now.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 18, 2010, 11:33:59 AM
The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product without even considering alternatives.
Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.
Pawning this as some watershed moment in the import auto market IMO is a major stretch. At the end of the day this is more of a PR disaster than it is a product disaster. Further, it takes more than a few years of good but average product to get your customer base back. The typical Camcord customer has little reason yet to buy a Fusion or Malibu. At best it's almost equivalent product at a very small discount.
The Japanese automakers started with nothing and through decades and decades of product, marketing and otherwise chronic, dutiful effort, where they able to get to where they are today. Now it's Detroit's turn, and it's not going to happen overnight, if ever. Meaning, it's not the market's responsibility to consider alternatives, but the automakers option to try to compel them to do so.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 18, 2010, 11:33:59 AM
The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product without even considering alternatives.
Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.
Truth.And I'm a perfect example of that. The first car I'd ever owned was a '73 Chevelle. After that, through the 80's 90's and 00's I went through 11 imports; Hondas, VWs, Audis and Subarus until last Spring. When looking for something new/different I read up on what was out there in the late model used car market and began hearing enough good things about post '00 domestics that I gave them a shot. Mind you, this from someone who for three decades never bothered to sit in an American car when it came time to buy. I tried out a 300C and Fusion and in the end liked the CTS the best and it's turning into one of my favorite cars.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 18, 2010, 12:18:05 PM
Pawning this as some watershed moment in the import auto market IMO is a major stretch. At the end of the day this is more of a PR disaster than it is a product disaster. Further, it takes more than a few years of good but average product to get your customer base back. The typical Camcord customer has little reason yet to buy a Fusion or Malibu. At best it's almost equivalent product at a very small discount.
Actually, the Camcord owner never believes he's getting an equivalent product. He's typically paying a little more to get something he believes may be comparable in features, size and comfort but far superior in quality. It's why I purchsed imports for years - the red circles in CR's charts. It's the one trump card that Japanese imports could pull out and beat over the domestics' heads. This Toyota recall won't mean suddenly everyone will be driving a Fusion, but it could lead to people who'd been burned by domestics before to come back to see what they're making now.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 18, 2010, 12:18:05 PM
The Japanese automakers started with nothing and through decades and decades of product, marketing and otherwise chronic, dutiful effort, where they able to get to where they are today. Now it's Detroit's turn, and it's not going to happen overnight, if ever. Meaning, it's not the market's responsibility to consider alternatives, but the automakers option to try to compel them to do so.
More truth.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 10:17:30 AM
I was going to tell her to get a Fiesta instead.
Maybe I'll do that. :lol:
A base Fiesta is 14K. That's a lot of money.
I will say this though, this seems to level the playing field. No longer will Toyota have sales based upon "Because it's a Toyota" but now people will take the time to research and test before buying.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 18, 2010, 12:34:30 PM
A base Fiesta is 14K. That's a lot of money.
And if it's still much like the EDM model I drove, I would recommend it in a heartbeat. I've driven a lot of cars, and I've never been as enamored. It has its flaws, but the car is a very solid product.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 12:44:50 PM
And if it's still much like the EDM model I drove, I would recommend it in a heartbeat. I've driven a lot of cars, and I've never been as enamored. It has its flaws, but the car is a very solid product.
It's still expensive.
...and I still think they lie about their gas mileage :rolleyes:; especially the RAV4.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Toyoda gets treated at the inquisition ;).
Quote from: Submariner on February 18, 2010, 11:40:21 AM
Mercedes took a dive from 1998 to 2003, at which point they started their return to pre-98' levels of quality. This was most notable with the introduction of the current CL and S-class. Most models are there, though, I'd say I'm not sure the ML is as good as it could be....
Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.
My dad's 1996's catastrophic engine failure at 120K begs to differ.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 18, 2010, 12:49:10 PM
It's still expensive.
So are Accents when you load them with any bit of kit.
I'd like to amend my statement to say "for an economy car." The E39 M5 was still the ultimate for me.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 12:53:24 PM
So are Accents when you load them with any bit of kit.
I'd like to amend my statement to say "for an economy car." The E39 M5 was still the ultimate for me.
14K is for a Base Fiesta.
10K is for a Base Versa which is roomier.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 12:49:28 PM
...and I still think they lie about their gas mileage :rolleyes:; especially the RAV4.
Your argument there continues to be ridiculous. What was it again, that two cars with equal displacement and weight should always have the same gas mileage?
Quote from: 2o6 on February 18, 2010, 12:54:15 PM
14K is for a Base Fiesta.
10K is for a Base Versa which is roomier.
$13,320. That's not bad.
...but then it's "as shown" at $20,540 on the site. WTF.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 12:56:41 PM
$13,320. That's not bad.
...but then it's "as shown" at $20,540 on the site. WTF.
12K would be a great base price.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 12:55:10 PM
Your argument there continues to be ridiculous. What was it again, that two cars with equal displacement and weight should always have the same gas mileage?
Not exactly :rolleyes:. I'm a little disappointed that you're not more familiar with the stats. :huh:
More specifically; that the vehicle that weighs less and has the 6spd automatic vs. the 4 spd automatic while having the same displacement engine will get better mileage, in that they are both mapped for efficiency.
Besides, it's been obvious for years that Toyota has been less than forthcoming/honest about their vehicles.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 18, 2010, 12:58:40 PM
12K would be a great base price.
The Versa sedan is cheaper, but it also comes with next to nothing in it. It looks like the difference between the two cars is $2,500-3,000 from bottom to top.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 01:01:43 PM
Not exactly :rolleyes:. I'm a little disappointed that you're not more familiar with the stats. :huh:
More specifically; that the vehicle that weighs less and has the 6spd automatic vs. the 4 spd automatic while having the same displacement engine will get better mileage, in that they are both mapped for efficiency.
Besides, it's been obvious for years that Toyota has been less than forthcoming/honest about their vehicles.
There are way too many other factors for you to make that claim.
Besides, it's not as if other sources get way under EPA ratings for just Toyotas. In the case of the RAV4, I'm looking at specs from C/D and CR in which their tested RAV4s beat a tested Mariner and Escape, respectively, for mileage.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 01:03:02 PM
The Versa sedan is cheaper, but it also comes with next to nothing in it. It looks like the difference between the two cars is $2,500-3,000 from bottom to top.
Which is a lot.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 01:10:09 PM
Which is a lot.
Yeah. Do you think Ford's huge discount days are really over, though? I don't. I bet within a year, there will be clearances of them selling around $10,000 new -- which would be a hell of a bargain.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 01:09:44 PM
There are way too many other factors for you to make that claim.
Nevertheless, I make it :praise:.
Quote
Besides, it's not as if other sources get way under EPA ratings for just Toyotas. In the case of the RAV4, I'm looking at specs from C/D and CR in which their tested RAV4s beat a tested Mariner and Escape, respectively, for mileage.
There are many factors that can influence mileage results; including bribery :tounge:.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 01:13:00 PM
Yeah. Do you think Ford's huge discount days are really over, though? I don't. I bet within a year, there will be clearances of them selling around $10,000 new -- which would be a hell of a bargain.
That would be. But you can't even get discounts like that on the Aveo -- unless this flops, this won't need that kind of discount.
And this particular buyer you're talking about can't really wait six months for it to go on sale and then another eight or so for it to get discounted.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 01:14:09 PM
Nevertheless, I make it :praise:.
There are many factors that can influence mileage results; including bribery :tounge:.
If you're being serious, you're being ridiculous.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 01:16:21 PM
That would be. But you can't even get discounts like that on the Aveo -- unless this flops, this won't need that kind of discount.
And this particular buyer you're talking about can't really wait six months for it to go on sale and then another eight or so for it to get discounted.
Good point. But if you figure it at 95% of a MINI Cooper for 75% of the price, it looks like a great deal. If you look at it as a cheap Ford in the marketplace, it's a miserable value. Marketing this car here isn't going to be easy.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 01:16:33 PM
If you're being serious, you're being ridiculous.
Does it look like I'm being serious :huh:?
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 01:14:09 PM
Nevertheless, I make it :praise:.
There are many factors that can influence mileage results; including bribery :tounge:.
Wait a minute. Those mileage numbers are from the government not the automakers.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 17, 2010, 03:54:27 PM
Ol' Akio isn't showing up to the congressional hearings either.
Can you blame him? A Japanese has not been in a position like this since Mamoru Shigemitsu signed the unconditional surrender documents on board the USS Missouri on September 2 1945.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 18, 2010, 01:18:22 PM
Good point. But if you figure it at 95% of a MINI Cooper for 75% of the price, it looks like a great deal. If you look at it as a cheap Ford in the marketplace, it's a miserable value. Marketing this car here isn't going to be easy.
The Mini Cooper doesn't sell in mainstream volume. I hope that's not what Ford's trying to make it do.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 18, 2010, 01:23:17 PM
Wait a minute. Those mileage numbers are from the government not the automakers.
I was not being, particularly, serious. However, the government only sets the criteria, as I understand it. The manufacturer does the testing.
In regard to an earlier discussion I was having with ifcar; when I was shopping for my wife's car in 2009 and was comparing available CUVs, I had noticed that the RAV4 and Escape were rated at the same mileage for comparable models even though the RAV4 was a 4spd automatic and the Escape was a 6spd automatic, all else being pretty much equal; except the RAV4 was a bit heavier. It made me wonder how much validity there was to that EPA rating.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 01:48:48 PM
I was not being, particularly, serious. However, the government only sets the criteria, as I understand it. The manufacturer does the testing.
In regard to an earlier discussion I was having with ifcar; when I was shopping for my wife's car in 2009 and was comparing available CUVs, I had noticed that the RAV4 and Escape were rated at the same mileage for comparable models even though the RAV4 was a 4spd automatic and the Escape was a 6spd automatic, all else being pretty much equal; except the RAV4 was a bit heavier. It made me wonder how much validity there was to that EPA rating.
Not sure if this would apply since this was a 2007/8 comparo, but look at the MPG #s
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/eb52dae092e42a37d28e1df6fb3f61e1.pdf
And these are not EPA and this isn't Motortrend.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 01:48:48 PM
I was not being, particularly, serious. However, the government only sets the criteria, as I understand it. The manufacturer does the testing.
In regard to an earlier discussion I was having with ifcar; when I was shopping for my wife's car in 2009 and was comparing available CUVs, I had noticed that the RAV4 and Escape were rated at the same mileage for comparable models even though the RAV4 was a 4spd automatic and the Escape was a 6spd automatic, all else being pretty much equal; except the RAV4 was a bit heavier. It made me wonder how much validity there was to that EPA rating.
I thought they were extrapolated by the EPA from the government's emissions testing process.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 18, 2010, 02:30:40 PM
I thought they were extrapolated by the EPA from the government's emissions testing process.
The automakers do most testing. The EPA does a few spot checks.
Quote from: NomisR on February 18, 2010, 02:26:28 PM
Not sure if this would apply since this was a 2007/8 comparo, but look at the MPG #s
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/eb52dae092e42a37d28e1df6fb3f61e1.pdf
And these are not EPA and this isn't Motortrend.
The '09s had different powertrains. The Escape had a new engine, Mazda 2.5 and 6spd. auto, the RAV4 had an upgraded engine and with the same 4spd. auto. The RAV4 was an AWD, no FWD at the time and the Escape was FWD; which made it even more puzzling. I don't know what the final drive ratio was on either.
Quote from: Raza on February 18, 2010, 12:50:08 PM
My dad's 1996's catastrophic engine failure at 120K begs to differ.
Yes, I revise that.
It started with the 96' E-class.
Quote from: Submariner on February 18, 2010, 03:29:25 PM
Yes, I revise that.
It started with the 96' E-class.
What makes the 1996 W140 any different from the W140s from previous years?
Yeah, the W210 was an embarrassment in terms of quality.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
Yeah, the W210 was an embarrassment in terms of quality.
The quality of the W210 was decent and dare I say underrated. It might not have been the best Mercedes had to offer, I can admit that, but it surely wasn't crap as most people make it out to be. There are many examples pointing out that the W210 was overall a decent car. I suspect that the electrical reliability in the US wasn't as reliable as it was in Europe based on more standard features etc.
I've got relatives with W210 E-Classes, one of them approaching 500,000 km with his E200 which he uses for business purposes to travel from Germany to Eastern Europe and back. The best example of the W210s quality is this. Throughout Germany there are thousands of W210s running as taxis. Taxi duty isn't exactly something easy. Stop-and-go-traffic and running virtually 24 hours a day in all kinds of weather conditions is quite a feat. Most W210s I see are in great shape visually. Once in a while I even ride in them and I've detected nothing wrong with the suspension feel etc. And of course there's the friendly chat with the taxi driver. Sure, a problem here and there might appear, but what car isn't problem free in the long run? I'll get a lot of heat for this and will be labeled as a fanboy, but in my experience the W210 is a pretty solid car overall. It wasn't over-engineered like the W124 and past E-Classes and in the E-Class hierarchy is probably the weakest link, but it sure as hell wasn't the piece of crap people make it out to be.
Quote from: ifcar on February 18, 2010, 02:36:51 PM
The automakers do most testing. The EPA does a few spot checks.
Yes, that right but the test are rigidly prescribed. It's not like a manufacturer is free to do their own testing their own way and have that reuslt published. I gaaurss a manufacturer could just lie about the numbers and hope the EPA doesn't select that vehicle for the 10-15% of cars that they spot check.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 18, 2010, 05:29:32 PM
Yes, that right but the test are rigidly prescribed. It's not like a manufacturer is free to do their own testing their own way and have that reuslt published. I gaaurss :confused: a manufacturer could just lie about the numbers and hope the EPA doesn't select that vehicle for the 10-15% of cars that they spot check.
You what?
I've read somewhere that manufactures prep or tweak their test mules in order to best perform at the level of the test criteria. I don't know how true that is.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 17, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
One has to be extremely naive if one doesn't believe that ANY large business worth its salt doesn't hire IP lawyers to skirt patents, or trial lawyers to skirt business regulations, or environmental lawyers to skirt environmental regulations.
And yet we should trust them and not have the Gov regulate them so much.
Sike, A-dog is indeed testifying.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/18/autos/toyoda_invitation/index.htm?hpt=T1
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 18, 2010, 06:12:05 PM
You what?
I've read somewhere that manufactures prep or tweak their test mules in order to best perform at the level of the test criteria. I don't know how true that is.
Damn fingers sometimes have a mind of their own. :lol:
I guess they could tweak the test cars, but they then run the risk of having the EPA follow behind them with their own test. I assume there is some acceptable amount of variation in the test results. I have no idea what the penalty would be if the results were off by a significant amount.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2010, 08:18:46 PM
Sike, A-dog is indeed testifying.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/18/autos/toyoda_invitation/index.htm?hpt=T1
anyone want to make a bet at least 1 congressmen tries to scoff at the fact my Toyoda flew into DC on a plane and didn't drive to DC from Japan in a hybrid?
:facepalm:
Quote from: r0tor on February 19, 2010, 07:56:59 AM
anyone want to make a bet at least 1 congressmen tries to scoff at the fact my Toyoda flew into DC on a plane and didn't drive to DC from Japan in a hybrid?
:facepalm:
If you think about it, I mean, these congressmen should know as much about cars and this recall as Bozo the Clown.
You'd imagine that Toyoda would handle the questions with aplomb.... :huh:
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 18, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
What makes the 1996 W140 any different from the W140s from previous years?
Yeah, the W210 was an embarrassment in terms of quality.
Nothing...Engine choices, perhaps (Though I've never heard of widespread problems like Raza's dad had with the 3.2) but the car was as well built as it was when it debuted in 1992.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 19, 2010, 08:24:55 AM
If you think about it, I mean, these congressmen should know as much about cars and this recall as Bozo the Clown.
Bad call. IIRC Larry Harmon AKA Bozo the Clown, was a devoted car buff. :devil:
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 19, 2010, 09:59:20 AM
Bad call. IIRC Larry Harmon AKA Bozo the Clown, was a devoted car buff. :devil:
Fuck, was he really? :lol: