This really offers an interesting counterpoint to the 'we're sorry and are doing better because our customers are number 1' commercials Toyota is currently running.
UPDATE 1-Toyota saw 2007 floormat recall as money-saving win
* Toyota said 2007 floormat recall saved over $100 mln
* Document one of thousands presented to US House panel
* Toyota not immediately available for comment
WASHINGTON, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) believed it had saved over $100 million by convincing U.S. regulators to end a 2007 investigation of sudden acceleration complaints with a relatively cheap floormat recall, according to an internal company document.
The document, which appears to be a briefing for Toyota's North American chief Yoshi Inaba prepared by the automaker's Washington staff in July 2009, cites sudden acceleration as a "key" safety issue and warns that U.S. regulators were taking a tougher line on forced recalls.
The document, which is marked confidential, was provided to the U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in advance of an appearance by Toyoda President Akio Toyoda before the panel on Wednesday.
A Toyota representative was not immediately available to comment. A copy of the presentation was obtained by Reuters.
The document seems certain to add to the high-stakes debate about whether Toyota missed or ignored red flags about a rising number of complaints about sudden acceleration in its vehicles and whether U.S. safety regulators were tough enough.
In recent months, Toyota has recalled over 8.5 million vehicles globally for problems that include sticky accelerators, accelerators that can be pinned down by loose floormats and a braking glitch on its Prius hybrid.
Toyota has estimated those recalls will cost it $2 billion in the fiscal year ending March.
But before an August 2009 crash that killed an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and three others, Toyota had limited its action on sudden acceleration complaints to a recall of 55,000 floormats on the Camry and Lexus ES350.
The July 2009 Toyota presentation depicts a Washington-based company operation that presented three cases where it had succeeded in limiting U.S. safety investigations as "wins."
Inaba, who had retired from Toyota in 2007, was called back from retirement and appointed to head up the automaker's North American operations in late June by Toyoda.
The presentation that carries his name was dated July 6, 2009, about two weeks after Inaba took the job at the direct urging of Toyoda.
The document cites "favorable recall outcomes" as one of the key achievements of Toyota's lobbying effort in Washington as well as "safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota."
Specifically, the document says that Toyota's Washington safety group, a team that included several former U.S. officials, helped negotiate changes or delays to four proposed vehicle safety rules covering standards for roof crush, electric shock, side impact and door locks.
By winning "added lead time and phase-in" for new side-impact crash standards, Toyota estimated that it had saved about $124 million, according to the document.
At the same time, Toyota's Washington safety group was credited with having "negotiated (an) 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES," a step credited with saving over $100 million with no finding of a defect by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. (Reporting by Kevin Krolicki; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)
A point was made in another thread about how most, if not all the major automakers are guilty of games of deception, duplicity, and gambling.
Toyota is going to get beat up over this. They gambled and lost. Now their reputation is going to take a pounding in public opinion. They will hurt, but in the end, Toyota will recover. This is just a stop point in their seemingly unstoppable growth over the last decade. Toyota has peaked and at their peak, have fallen mightily.
I loathe Toyota as much as the next guy, but Toyota will stick around. If I was a Toyota owner, I would want the guys who made these decisions reprimanded and fired. I am not sure if they committed a specific crime other than crimes of conscience. They lied about the problems and in the end, it bit them in the ass. This is a lesson many people learn throughout life.
With the information network growing at an accelerated (excuse the pun) rate, we are moving to an era of more transparency. I believe some people want to be ignorant about certain aspects of our world and that is fine, but consumers are getting smarter. Mainly because they are more well informed from a variety of sources. If Toyota had just been more transparent about the problem, consumers would have understood. In the end, Toyota risked the one thing that resonates the most with consumers and customers.
They risked their reputation for quality products and their ironclad reliability. It is this that brings customers into the Toyota showroom. They put it on the table, hoping to roll a seven, and came up with snake eyes. For what? 100 million?
It is the first time you discover a girlfriend is lying to you or has lied to you. You cannot help but wonder what else has she lied about. What other secrets is she hiding for me? You also doubt yourself for not seeing it. You should have known better. It creates a sphere of doubt.
Again, is lying ever worth the trouble? I wonder. Before, Toyota customers never had to think twice about their decision to buy a Toyota product. They knew they were getting quality, safe, reliable, and low cost vehicles. It was assured. Toyota was different. It would not lie to you like a domestic manufacturer. It would not play the same games. This girl was different.
Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just as fallible as the next drunken idiot corporation.
Here is what is not certain. Will customers forgive Toyota? Will they dump Toyota? We shall see. I think overall, customers will now think twice about buying a Toyota. It is a feeling, they are not accustomed to embracing.
Again, for 100 million? Does not seem worth it does it?
This article ties in with the gist of the overall attitude of Toyota; especially the last paragraph...
Toyota hit with grand jury subpoena
(http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/22/autos/toyota_subpoena/index.htm)
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Toyota said Monday it has received a federal grand jury subpoena for documents relating to the unintended acceleration of its vehicles and braking systems in the Toyota Prius.
The carmaker also received a request and a subpoena for similar documents from the Los Angeles office of the Securities and Exchange Commission. The subpoenas and request were revealed in an SEC fililng.
Toyota (TM) has recalled more than 8 million vehicles related to possible unintended acceleration. The 2010 Toyota Prius was the subject of a separate recall involving problems with its brakes.
The federal grand jury subpoena was from the Southern District of New York. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District declined to comment on the matter, saying "It is our office's policy to neither confirm nor deny the existence of an investigation."
Toyota intends to cooperate with the investigations, the automaker said in its filing.
Toyota president Akio Toyoda and other company executives are expected to testify in Washington on Wednesday before the House Oversight Committee. The committee is looking into how the automaker and federal auto safety regulators dealt with concerns over unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.
Internal documents leading up to the hearing show Toyota executives boasting of the cash saved by negotiating down the severity of the recall related to acceleration.
I hope the hearing on Wednesday is televised.
E-mails show NHTSA investigating Toyota issues in '04
(http://detnews.com/article/20100220/AUTO01/2200386/1148/Toyota-labeled-Obama-administration--not-industry-friendly-/E-mails-show-NHTSA-investigating-Toyota-issues-in--04)
From the article...
NHTSA records show the safety agency began investigating the issue in late 2003.
? On Dec. 9, 2003, NHTSA's defect screening group recommended a formal investigation of unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Toyota Camry after getting 39 complaints, alleging 26 crashes.
A summary of the meeting obtained by The News said NHTSA suspected the unintended acceleration was caused by "possibly the engine's electronic control module or the drive-by-wire throttle system" that became standard on the 2002 model.
? On Feb. 17, 2004, NHTSA began a separate formal review of a defect petition concerning unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Lexus ES 300.
? Just 10 days later, State Farm research administrator Sam Boyden sent an e-mail to NHTSA on Feb. 27, saying the nation's largest insurer had five claims of unwanted acceleration in the 2002 Lexus ES 300 during the previous 12 months.
One of the crashes was a 2002 Lexus ES 300 in the garage of a Life Time Fitness in August 2003. "Gas pedal stuck causing a hit of multiple cars," said the State Farm report obtained by The Detroit News on Saturday
Another accident took place in a Lexus with just 2,300 miles on it as a couple was driving from Mississippi and stopped for gas in Louisiana. "He kept depressing the brakes, but the described vehicle would not stop," the State Farm report said. "It felt like his accelerator got stuck."
Another claim filed in November 2002 said it was the third time the Lexus had taken off "without warning on its own."
? On March, 1, 2004, Jonathan White, chief of defects assessment for NHTSA, wrote back to Boyden, seeking additional claims data.
"We are looking into similar reports and would like to acquire what similar information you have on the model year 2002-2004 Camry and Camry Solara, as well as the 2003-2004 Lexus ES 300," White wrote. "Your submission of the information was very timely; we had just presented the information on the Camry vehicles."
? On March 2, 2004, Boyden wrote back attaching 34 more claims, including 18 on the 2002 Camry and 11 on the 2003 Camry.
? Two days later on March 4, 2004, NHTSA opened a formal investigation of alleged unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Toyota Camry/Solara and Lexus ES 300.
? But NHTSA closed the probe a few months later on July 22, 2004, without identifying a safety defect trend or vehicle-based cause.
NHTSA had six separate investigations into sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles in the last decade -- and required Toyota to do little.
In September 2007, Toyota agreed to recall of 55,000 floor mats on the 2007-08 Lexus ES 350 and 2007-08 Camry -- but didn't make any mechanical fix.
But NHTSA continued to look at the issue.
NHTSA requested on April 29 a listing of State Farm claims alleging unintended acceleration for all vehicle models for the 2006-09 model years. When NHTSA got the list on June 24, the agency incorporated the data as part of its review.
After an August deadly accident in Santee, Calif., that left an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and three others dead when the pedal of a loaner Lexus vehicle got stuck in the floormat, Toyota soon agreed to a comprehensive fix.
Toyota has recalled 5.4 million vehicles in the United States to address pedal entrapment concerns, and is replacing floor mats, shrinking and replacing accelerator pedals and in some cases adding foam underneath the carpet below the pedal. Toyota has also agreed to add brake override systems to all vehicles that will allow motorists to stop vehicles even if the accelerator is stuck.
Toyota has also recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. over sticky pedal issues.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has said that federal officials had to push Toyota "every step of the way" to act faster on the safety issues. NHTSA event sent its acting administrator, Ron Medford, to Japan in December to meet with senior Toyota officials and urge the company to move faster on safety issues.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on February 22, 2010, 09:59:37 AM
Again, is lying ever worth the trouble? I wonder. Before, Toyota customers never had to think twice about their decision to buy a Toyota product. They thought knew they were getting quality, safe, reliable, and low cost vehicles. It was assured. Toyota was different. It would not lie to you like a domestic manufacturer. It would not play the same games. This girl was different.
Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just fallible at the next drunken idiot corporation.
Here is what is not certain. Will customers forgive Toyota? Will they dump Toyota? We shall see. I think overall, customers will now think twice about buying a Toyota. It is a feeling, they are not accustomed to embracing.
Again, for 100 million? Does not seem worth it does it?
I changed a word for you.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 22, 2010, 10:47:30 AM
I changed a word for you.
Too true.
I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth. :huh:
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 22, 2010, 10:47:30 AM
I changed a word for you.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 22, 2010, 10:58:29 AM
Too true.
I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth. :huh:
Why change a word in one specific quote when I make the exact same progression in the next paragraph?
Quote
Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just as fallible as the next drunken idiot corporation.
I was using the term "knew" as an absolute. My progression illustrates that the absolute no longer exists in the customer's mind. Doubt now resonates.
I am not going to hate on Toyota. They messed up and the consequences will resonate for a substantial period. It has taken awhile for the Domestics from the 80s/90s. Now the playing field is leveling off and we shall start seeing a more competitive market due to the downturn and Toyota's misstep. This favors the consumer. This is the time to be in the market. Quality products abound and companies willing to sell their soul for your loyalty.
I like this combination. I will be in the market for a brand new vehicle within the next year.
And with this, the rise of Hyundai is complete.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 22, 2010, 10:58:29 AM
Too true.
I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth. :huh:
I've long been of the opinion that the typical Toyota buyer was after what they believed to be safe, reliable, thrifty transportation. I think that's pretty much Consumer Reports criteria for a good car as well, hence the continuous high ratings. I suspect the average buyer was about as enthused about buying a new car as they would be buying a new toaster. Not buying soul, not buying fun, just wanting a transportation appliance. This also explains why many on forums such as these don't particularly care for them.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 22, 2010, 11:17:37 AM
I've long been of the opinion that the typical Toyota buyer was after what they believed to be safe, reliable, thrifty transportation. I think that's pretty much Consumer Reports criteria for a good car as well, hence the continuous high ratings. I suspect the average buyer was about as enthused about buying a new car as they would be buying a new toaster. Not buying soul, not buying fun, just wanting a transportation appliance. This also explains why many on forums such as these don't particularly care for them.
Not all Toyotas are not appliances. In fact, some of their SUVs are some of the best in the market. The FJ, 4Runner, and Rav4 are all excellent vehicles. I would never fault anyone for owning one. They are capable, enjoyable vehicles. Even the Rav can get a little dirty.
The tC is also an excellent buy. For the price, you get one hell of a vehicle. I've been in a few. They are well built and fun. If I was younger, I might want to own one.
It is about taste. I used to assume that Toyota owners were dull people. I've turned around a little bit. My main point I make to people is this...
"The Corolla and Camry have been two of the best selling vehicles in America for the last decade. So they are good, but because Toyota wants them to sell so well they have to be the most inoffensive vehicles for Toyota. They do not say anything. They are vanilla. Besides. With so many people owning them, do you REALLY want to be like everyone else? Well, you just might. I, on the other hand, do not want to own something 10 million other people own. Some people follow the crowd. Others do not. I am the latter. Do you want to be the former?"
If they make you a deal, then they make you a deal. If you can get a Corolla for 3k less than a comparably equipped Civic, Mazda3, Focus, etc, then pull the trigger. You would be stupid not to. The tough part is when not much separates the competition from one another especially price. At that point, you must ask yourself who you are and what do you value in a vehicle?
If a Corolla or a Camry matches up with those values then who am I to argue? The blind buying of Toyotas has become a national past time. The consumer now has tougher choices to make.
In general, most Toyotas do not match up with what I value in a vehicle, but I would be stupid not to look at some of the vehicles they do offer that match up with my tastes like the Rav, FJ, or 4Runner. After being in my Jeep for so long, I have really learned to enjoy it's capability, utility, and quality. If Toyota is making deals on those vehicles, would you hold a bad opinion of me? Would you say I am a buyer of appliances?
I think your premise could use some revising and second thought. It is just blind hatred for most people without any real reason. What I always hated about Toyota was not Toyota itself, but the people who bought Toyotas blindly. Since this incident, that has now changed. I am not going to sit here and revel in it. These are darker days for Toyota.
Bottom line: Toyota still makes quality vehicles. They always will. If someone took the time to really step back and decide if a Toyota was right for them, then there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. At the end of the day, they will still get a quality product.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on February 22, 2010, 11:50:52 AM
Not all Toyotas are not appliances. In fact, some of their SUVs are some of the best in the market. The FJ, 4Runner, and Rav4 are all excellent vehicles. I would never fault anyone for owning one. They are capable, enjoyable vehicles. Even the Rav can get a little dirty.
I thought we were mainly talking about the Corolla and Camry, the cars that are the subject of recalls and investigations.
"The Corolla and Camry have been two of the best selling vehicles in America for the last decade. So they are good, but because Toyota wants them to sell so well they have to be the most inoffensive vehicles for Toyota. They do not say anything. They are vanilla.
Very true
If they make you a deal, then they make you a deal. If you can get a Corolla for 3k less than a comparably equipped Civic, Mazda3, Focus, etc, then pull the trigger. You would be stupid not to. The tough part is when not much separates the competition from one another especially price. At that point, you must ask yourself who you are and what do you value in a vehicle?
That depends on the individual. I would pay $3K more for a comparably equipped Mazda 3 because it's that much better in the fun to drive department.
I think your premise could use some revising and second thought. It is just blind hatred for most people without any real reason.
We will agree to disagree on this point.
We are talking about Toyotas flagship vehicles, but EJ, you must evaluate an over generalization especially when it comes to cars.
A toaster costs 10-120 dollars (some kick ass Toaster ovens). A new car will likely be between 15-30 thousand dollars for most consumers. A toaster can be replaced readily. A car cannot. This is why terms like reliability, quality, and dependability actually mean something. Toyota has always been associated with those qualities for the right reasons.
When it comes to making an investment, would you not want to buy something that exhibits those qualities? This is where Toyota got by for so long. My problem always revolved around people saying Toyota was superior when it was not. Cars have so much better now across the board. People were being fools by not checking what else was out there in the market.
My main point is that Toyota bashers will find reasons to bash all Toyotas. It is always easy to kick somebody when they are already on the ground. I think some perspective is in order and not blind bias.
I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:33:17 PM
I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.
:huh:
+1
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:33:17 PM
I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.
More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.
Quote from: ifcar on February 22, 2010, 12:36:17 PM
More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.
Bullshit/subjective/I disagree, maybe a bit, maybe a bit.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:37:41 PM
Bullshit/subjective/I disagree, maybe a bit, maybe a bit.
Toyotas are smoother-riding, they are indisputably quieter than comparable Hondas in every case that comes to mind except Yaris vs. Fit, and the price difference is in the thousands.
Quote from: ifcar on February 22, 2010, 12:39:09 PM
Toyotas are smoother-riding, they are indisputably quieter than comparable Hondas in every case that comes to mind except Yaris vs. Fit, and the price difference is in the thousands.
People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:33:17 PM
I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.
Marketing :huh:.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:42:31 PM
People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.
And which Buicks would be comparable to Toyota's best-sellers?
Quote from: ifcar on February 22, 2010, 12:43:19 PM
And which Buicks would be comparable to Toyota's best-sellers?
Camry? Century.
Corolla? Century.
Sienna? LeSabre.
Supra? Regal.
.
.
.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:42:31 PM
People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.
Toyotas are like Buicks for people who won't buy domestics.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 12:42:31 PM
People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.
Buick was a domesitc, therefore unreliable. Otherwise, you're right, there's not much to distinguish them, although our Regal GS is fun to drive.
Quote from: Speed_Racer on February 22, 2010, 01:27:45 PM
Toyotas are like Buicks for people who won't buy domestics.
+1
Maybe it's high school and fond memories of my friend's shitbox Regal Custom, but I like Buicks.
It's my kid's car but on the few occasions I've had to drive it for whatever reason, I've quite liked it. Smooth, quiet, handles well enough and goes when you want it to.
Road noise probably turns alot of people off Honda. I kid you not, I think the road noise in my parents accord is worse than in my Z06. Plus Honda's seem to rattle alot, which annoys me too.
Quote from: 565 on February 22, 2010, 05:26:46 PM
Road noise probably turns alot of people off Honda. I kid you not, I think the road noise in my parents accord is worse than in my Z06. Plus Honda's seem to rattle alot, which annoys me too.
There is such a thing as too quiet, as least IMO. Toyota people suck and don't want to know they're driving a car.
Our 10 year old Camry beats our 3 year old Accord hands down in almost every way except interior volume and acceleration.
Quote from: ifcar on February 22, 2010, 12:36:17 PM
More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.
Yup, especially road noise. I think Toyotas are a wee bit more plush, too.
Quote from: CJ on February 22, 2010, 06:28:08 PM
Our 10 year old Camry beats our 3 year old Accord hands down in almost every way except interior volume and acceleration.
Your 3 year old Accord is a real lemon.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 22, 2010, 11:17:37 AM
I've long been of the opinion that the typical Toyota buyer was after what they believed to be safe, reliable, thrifty transportation. I think that's pretty much Consumer Reports criteria for a good car as well, hence the continuous high ratings. I suspect the average buyer was about as enthused about buying a new car as they would be buying a new toaster. Not buying soul, not buying fun, just wanting a transportation appliance. This also explains why many on forums such as these don't particularly care for them.
Toyota's legacy for its small pickup and 4Runner are a perfect example of how rightfully so the company won the hearts and minds of millions of Americans, even if relatively few were buying them.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 06:54:26 PM
Toyota's legacy for its small pickup and 4Runner are a perfect example of how rightfully so the company won the hearts and minds of millions of Americans, even if relatively few were buying them.
You mean the legacy of vehicles turning to a pile of rusty powder after 10 years?
Quote from: MX793 on February 22, 2010, 06:56:02 PM
You mean the legacy of vehicles turning to a pile of rusty powder after 10 years?
And then the legacy of replacing those frames or even buying those trucks back at above market value only cements Toyota's legacy further. (But then again as we all now know Dana Corp., the frame supplier, botched the coating process.)
Try what you guys will, Toyota is still overall making the best product on the road today.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
And then the legacy of replacing those frames or even buying those trucks back at above market value only cements Toyota's legacy further. (But then again as we all now know Dana Corp., the frame supplier, botched the coating process.)
Try what you guys will, Toyota is still overall making the best product on the road today.
And the best product that goes flying off the road uncontrollably with a stuck throttle and bad brakes today.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
And then the legacy of replacing those frames or even buying those trucks back at above market value only cements Toyota's legacy further. (But then again as we all now know Dana Corp., the frame supplier, botched the coating process.)
Try what you guys will, Toyota is still overall making the best product on the road today.
Then why do you drive a Honda? :lol: :tounge:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 07:05:05 PM
And the best product that goes flying off the road uncontrollably with a stuck throttle and bad brakes today.
I think it's pretty much proven now the "unintended acceleration" is a redux of Audi 5000 "problem" of the '80s.
The brake problem adds centimeters to braking distance.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
And then the legacy of replacing those frames or even buying those trucks back at above market value only cements Toyota's legacy further. (But then again as we all now know Dana Corp., the frame supplier, botched the coating process.)
Try what you guys will, Toyota is still overall making the best product on the road today.
I'm not talking about the recent frame rust issue. Toyota trucks have long had a legacy of rusting away in short order in northern climates. Even if the frames hold up, the bodies usually completely rusted away far sooner than most other brands.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 22, 2010, 07:07:27 PM
Then why do you drive a Honda? :lol: :tounge:
I had a Tacoma for ~150k miles before the current Accord.
It came down between the Accord and the Camry SE V6 back in '05. Then the Camry 230 hp 3.3L V6 came only in the (loaded) Camry SE. I don't like leather and sunroof and didn't want to pay for it, and the base Camry 190 hp 3.0L V6 at the time just didn't cut it.
Quote from: MX793 on February 22, 2010, 07:13:29 PM
I'm not talking about the recent frame rust issue. Toyota trucks have long had a legacy of rusting away in short order in northern climates. Even if the frames hold up, the bodies usually completely rusted away far sooner than most other brands.
Can't really speak about; not an issue where I live. Either way I think it's hard to deny the legendary legacy of Toyota's small pickups. One many not agree with it, but it's there.
There you have it. Cougs is an unthusiast. His final two cars to chose from were the Accord and the Camry. :facepalm:
Quote from: CJ on February 22, 2010, 06:28:08 PM
Our 10 year old Camry beats our 3 year old Accord hands down in almost every way except interior volume and acceleration.
It handles better? It has better steering feel?
Oh right, you like Volvos.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:09:38 PM
I think it's pretty much proven now the "unintended acceleration" is a redux of Audi 5000 "problem" of the '80s.
I've been wrapped up in the Olympics for 10 days...when did this happen?
QuoteThe brake problem adds centimeters to braking distance.
You know this how?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:09:38 PM
I think it's pretty much proven now the "unintended acceleration" is a redux of Audi 5000 "problem" of the '80s.
The brake problem adds centimeters to braking distance.
You are so full of shit. The problem with Toyotas is not exclusive to a 60-Minutes stunt, staged to "prove" one unlikely case.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
And then the legacy of replacing those frames or even buying those trucks back at above market value only cements Toyota's legacy further. (But then again as we all now know Dana Corp., the frame supplier, botched the coating process.)
Try what you guys will, Toyota is still overall making the best product on the road today.
After recalling basically every vehicle they make for massive safety issues, you still think that? I fear for everyone driving worse cars than Toyotas. How are they still alive!?
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/
This doesn't prove anything. How exactly did he prove anything? He rigged it to go to WOT.
It shows what happens with the gas pedal, I'd assume. There's a short that occurs and this happens.
Quote from: CJ on February 22, 2010, 09:11:38 PM
It shows what happens with the gas pedal, I'd assume. There's a short that occurs and this happens.
You could probably rewire any drive-by-wire system to produce acceleration. That's kind of the definition of a drive-by-wire system, that the throttle is not directly linked and relies on electronics. You could say if special conditions existed that perfectly recreated your rewire, it could happen, but the same would be true for pretty much any car using drive-by-wire.
Anyway ABC seems to be barking up the wrong tree as Toyota's problem seems to be mechanical in nature.
(http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/toyota-accelerator-pedal-recall-repair.jpg)
Quote from: SVT666 on February 22, 2010, 08:35:37 PM
There you have it. Cougs is an unthusiast. His final two cars to chose from were the Accord and the Camry. :facepalm:
LOL - coming from a Focus/Freestyle/Sunbird
x 2 engines buyer/recent owner...
Quote from: Raza on February 22, 2010, 09:01:22 PM
After recalling basically every vehicle they make for massive safety issues, you still think that? I fear for everyone driving worse cars than Toyotas. How are they still alive!?
Um, safety issues being a floor mat and some BS shim...
Like I keep saying, nothing points to this more than likely being a witch hunt than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "cause."
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 09:36:20 PM
LOL - coming from a Focus/Freestyle/Sunbird x 2 engines buyer/recent owner...
I know I'd much rather have a Camry than an SVT Fucus. :ohyeah:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 09:38:38 PM
Um, safety issues being a floor mat and some BS shim...
Like I keep saying, nothing points to this more than likely being a witch hunt than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "cause."
It would appear the floormat issue was their attempt to come up with a low-cost fix for something they were still attempting to diagnose. If some of the correspondence amongst their execs is any indication, it was their standard MO for dealing with issues. Not a good thing.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 08:41:04 PM
You are so full of shit. The problem with Toyotas is not exclusive to a 60-Minutes stunt, staged to "prove" one unlikely case.
Yet no one anywhere has been shown to proven a thing.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 09:36:20 PM
LOL - coming from a Focus/Freestyle/Sunbird x 2 engines buyer/recent owner...
My Focus will eat your Accord for breakfast on any two lane backroad. My wife drove the Freestyle because we have 2 kids, wtf is your excuse?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:02:04 PM
Yet no one anywhere has been shown to proven a thing.
Your argument is invalid.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 22, 2010, 10:04:51 PM
My Focus will eat your Accord for breakfast on any two lane backroad. My wife drove the Freestyle because we have 2 kids, wtf is your excuse?
Save for something pretty tight and twisty I would own you just about everywhere else; on just about any track, on the open road, and on any acceleration measure whatsoever (LOL - like you were stuck in reverse) and be more reliable and comfortable doing it. And LOLets not forget recent Sunbird ownership.
My overall "excuse" is that you threw down once again and once again ran headlong into some ownage. I'd never criticize someone else's ride unless s/he explicitly needed it done, as you did.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 22, 2010, 10:08:05 PM
Your argument is invalid.
Not really - no one has proven a thing. The invalid tangent about electrical interference is another a perfect example.
At best all we have, from anyone, is that "if this goes wrong this can cause the problem."
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
Save for something pretty tight and twisty I would own you just about everywhere else; on just about any track, on the open road, and on any acceleration measure whatsoever (LOL - like you were stuck in reverse) and be more reliable and comfortable doing it. And LOLets not forget recent Sunbird ownership.
My overall "excuse" is that you threw down once again and once again ran headlong into some ownage. I'd never criticize someone else's ride unless s/he explicitly needed it done, as you did.
Reading comprehension fail: he was asking what your excuse was for buying a boring ass family sedan when you have no family.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
Save for something pretty tight and twisty I would own you just about everywhere else; on just about any track, on the open road, and on any acceleration measure whatsoever (LOL - like you were stuck in reverse) and be more reliable and comfortable doing it. And LOLets not forget recent Sunbird ownership.
My overall "excuse" is that you threw down once again and once again ran headlong into some ownage. I'd never criticize someone else's ride unless s/he explicitly needed it done, as you did.
You honestly think an Accord V6 could own an SVT Focus on a track?
What makes you think it's more reliable?
No offense, but his car looks a million times better than yours does. Yours is one of the ugliest Accords ever made, second to this current generation. His car is also more unique and less, well, dull.
Those are some fighting words from both Cougs and Hemi. Here's what we need, the first official Carspin street race!
Seriously that would be awesome.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
Save for something pretty tight and twisty I would own you just about everywhere else; on just about any track, on the open road, and on any acceleration measure whatsoever (LOL - like you were stuck in reverse) and be more reliable and comfortable doing it. And LOLets not forget recent Sunbird ownership.
My overall "excuse" is that you threw down once again and once again ran headlong into some ownage. I'd never criticize someone else's ride unless s/he explicitly needed it done, as you did.
I've been owned? News to me.
Quote from: 565 on February 22, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
Those are some fighting words from both Cougs and Hemi. Here's what we need, the first official Carspin street race!
Seriously that would be awesome.
Cougs refuses to meet me in person because he really thinks I would beat him up. Personally I think it's because he isn't who he says he is and doesn't want to get found out. I mean shit, how many times do people have to offer to meet him for a beer before he quits finding excuses?
Quote from: TBR on February 22, 2010, 10:25:55 PM
Reading comprehension fail: he was asking what your excuse was for buying a boring ass family sedan when you have no family.
Context, vesting, allegation
and reading comprehension fail: shall we degrade things further by exploring exactly where your ride falls on the 'SPIN performance scale? (HINT: not even in the ballpark for the cars under discussion). And I guess you missed that part whereby SVT666 got called out on recent Sunbird ownership.
Quote from: 565 on February 22, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
Those are some fighting words from both Cougs and Hemi. Here's what we need, the first official Carspin street race!
Seriously that would be awesome.
Completely unrelated, but please check your PMs.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:34:52 PM
Context, vesting, allegation and reading comprehension fail: shall we degrade things further by exploring exactly where your ride falls on the 'SPIN performance scale? (HINT: not even in the ballpark for the cars under discussion). And I guess you missed that part whereby SVT666 got called out on recent Sunbird ownership.
Nope, all the fail is on you, a judgment which you have only helped confirm.
Quote from: 565 on February 22, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
Those are some fighting words from both Cougs and Hemi. Here's what we need, the first official Carspin street race!
Seriously that would be awesome.
It would be something else. Not far from Seattle is Pacific Raceways (Kent, WA) with a 2.25 mile road course. A regional grudge match would indeed be interesting. The practicalities are however a day of laps will eat the tires and brakes, and risk crashing the car.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 22, 2010, 10:28:23 PM
You honestly think an Accord V6 could own an SVT Focus on a track?
What makes you think it's more reliable?
No offense, but his car looks a million times better than yours does. Yours is one of the ugliest Accords ever made, second to this current generation. His car is also more unique and less, well, dull.
Yes. The stats.
Yes. The history.
That's subjective. I'm not a huge fan of the 7th gen Accord either butthe power train was absolutely top notch, and extended up beyond its class let alone owning its class (e.g., check out all the Youtube vids of Accord V6 6MT coupes besting G35 coupes).
Quote from: SVT666 on February 22, 2010, 10:32:56 PM
Cougs refuses to meet me in person because he really thinks I would beat him up. Personally I think it's because he isn't who he says he is and doesn't want to get found out. I mean shit, how many times do people have to offer to meet him for a beer before he quits finding excuses?
Unless you've got some mad fighting skills or mega substantial strength I don't think you could. The point however was to avoid physical confrontation as it never ends well, even if you beat the other guy (meaning, civil and criminal repercussions).
There are no excuses. The first I think I was out of town in Japan. The second I told you "no" because since then you creeped me out a bit. I know all this goodness seems like a fairy tale but I guess I'll just keep you wondering.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 11:00:18 PM
Unless you've got some mad fighting skills or mega substantial strength I don't think you could. The point however was to avoid physical confrontation as it never ends well, even if you beat the other guy (meaning, civil and criminal repercussions).
Mega substantial strength? :lol: Oh you kill me Cougs :lol:
QuoteThere are no excuses. The first I think I was out of town in Japan. The second I told you "no" because since then you creeped me out a bit. I know all this goodness seems like a fairy tale but I guess I'll just keep you wondering.
:lol: you keep getting funnier. You were nowhere near Japan the first time I came down. Apparently you were bike riding. You also won't meet others, not just me.
Quote from: TBR on February 22, 2010, 10:38:31 PM
Nope, all the fail is on you, a judgment which you have only helped confirm.
Sunbird is your obvious-to-all FAIL (and SVT666's too).
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 11:28:13 PM
Sunbird is your obvious-to-all FAIL (and SVT666's too).
I don't have a Sunbird nor does SVT666. Move along, you're making a fool of yourself with these juvenile antics.
I do believe that Cougs is an engineer and not some kid who's bored.
On the other hand, his megalomania is somewhat disconcerting. A while ago, he did claim that he could realistically afford a 599 GTB. I mean, if you could, then surely any enthusiast would get something cooler than an Accord DX V6 or whatever it is that he has.
His religious allegiance to Ayn Rand makes me think that he may be something of a simpleton as well...
Quote from: TBR on February 22, 2010, 11:32:00 PM
I don't have a Sunbird nor does SVT666. Move along, you're making a fool of yourself with these juvenile antics.
Deflection fail x 2.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 22, 2010, 11:36:17 PM
I do believe that Cougs is an engineer and not some kid who's bored.
On the other hand, his megalomania is somewhat disconcerting. A while ago, he did claim that he could realistically afford a 599 GTB. I mean, if you could, then surely any enthusiast would get something cooler than an Accord DX V6 or whatever it is that he has.
His religious allegiance to Ayn Rand makes me think that he may be something of a simpleton as well...
Wow, I'd have to be board to some up with this persona. And I'd l like to think I could do better.
Enthusiast hint: most Ferraris are not in the hands of enthusiasts, and you'll find the most ardent of enthusiasts aren't buying expensive stuff.
I have no religious allegiance to anyone or anything but myself (how's that for megalomania?).
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 22, 2010, 10:35:10 PM
Completely unrelated, but please check your PMs.
Alright I just responded, in classic 565 rambling fashion.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 22, 2010, 11:21:48 PM
Mega substantial strength? :lol: Oh you kill me Cougs :lol:
:lol: you keep getting funnier. You were nowhere near Japan the first time I came down. Apparently you were bike riding. You also won't meet others, not just me.
Um, I was trying to be nice...
Bike riding or Japan, it doesn't really matter. I'm not going to meet you anytime soon. Does this help?
Y'all are fuckin' crazy.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 22, 2010, 10:32:56 PM
Cougs refuses to meet me in person because he really thinks I would beat him up. Personally I think it's because he isn't who he says he is and doesn't want to get found out. I mean shit, how many times do people have to offer to meet him for a beer before he quits finding excuses?
Well, there is this on: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14016
Gocougs
Junior member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Washington state speeding ticket
Hi,
I was in Seattle for the long weekend with a friend, and drove back to the east side on Monday evening. On the I-90 around Ritzville, I was behind a couple cars that were stuck behind a truck, so I got into the left lane (it was two lanes in my direction) to pass the truck. I sped up, and just as I was ready to get in front of the truck, I noticed a cop car parked on the side of the road. I got back into the right lane, in front of the truck, and returned my speed to the limit, hoping that it wouldn't be a big deal because I had finished passing and was at the appropriate speed again, but I ended up getting pulled over and being given a ticket. I was clocked going 82 (the speed limit was 70) in that stretch in the left lane.
This is my first ticket of any kind, ever, and I have very little experience with the law as I've never been in any kind of trouble before, so I am coming to you for help. I am a college student with very strict parents, and if they find out that I got this ticket, they will stop helping to pay for my tuition. As an out of state student with out of state tuition fees (I'm from CA), that would be the worst thing that could happen to me. I've read about deferrment as a possibility and some people have told me in WA it is legal to exceed the speed limit to pass and that I shouldn't have been given a ticket, but I keep getting conflicting information, so I'm hoping perhaps someone here can shed some light on this. I am under my parents' car insurance, so if this goes on my record and the rates get raised...well...I just can't think about what will happen.
If anyone has any suggestions about what to do regarding this ticket, I'd really appreciate any of your help!!
I am glad we stayed on topic.
Good job team. :ohyeah:
You fuckers don't get it. This is GoPubes' message board. You're just typing on it!
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on February 23, 2010, 07:01:04 AM
I am glad we stayed on topic.
Good job team. :ohyeah:
By the third page topics here generally turn away from the original topic. This should be no surprise.
So the hearing on capitol hill is tomorrow? Are those broadcast online? I guess there is a pretty good chance that CNN International will broadcast live.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 23, 2010, 07:28:08 AM
So the hearing on capitol hill is tomorrow? Are those broadcast online? I guess there is a pretty good chance that CNN International will broadcast live.
GM is sponsoring 24/7 coverage.
It should be pointed out that the only Toyota recalled in Australia has been the the Prius, and even that is due to 'reports of inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady braking on certain road conditions such as a pot hole, bumpy or slippery road surfaces when the ABS is activated. The brake pedal feel may not be consistent, but the brakes will continue to operate. There have been a total of 111 cases reported globally, two in Australia''.
http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/small-passenger/toyota/prius/prius-brake-recall-made-official-18240 (http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/small-passenger/toyota/prius/prius-brake-recall-made-official-18240)
Repeat: two in Australia. That smacks to me of a face-saving recall rather than any sort based in truth.
In respect to the other cars, I remain unconvinced that there is such a fundamental difference in pedal or floormat design between the various markets. Questions arise - why are LHD floor mats different to RHD ones (or pedals, for that matter)? Why do recalled RHD UK pedals differ in design to non-recalled RHD Australian pedals (assuming there is in fact a difference, ignoring what has been said by Toyota employees)? Are floormats bought from third-party retailers subject to any recalls, because if not, that would suggest that every single third-party retailer in the world sells floormats for Toyotas that are fundamentally different to OE-Toyota floormats, which I find to be hilariously illogical? Why are LHD American Toyotas/Lexuses able to be the only cars in the world in which the brakes are unable to override the engine?
And so on. Not convinced, I'm afraid.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 09:38:38 PM
Um, safety issues being a floor mat and some BS shim...
Like I keep saying, nothing points to this more than likely being a witch hunt than the absolutely ridiculous floor mat "cause."
So you're completely ignoring the issues that came about when there was no floormat in place?
You should have been a lawyer.
(http://baask.com/diwwan/index.php?action-mgallery;sa=media;id=2371;preview)
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
Save for something pretty tight and twisty I would own you just about everywhere else; on just about any track, on the open road, and on any acceleration measure whatsoever (LOL - like you were stuck in reverse) and be more reliable and comfortable doing it. And LOLets not forget recent Sunbird ownership.
My overall "excuse" is that you threw down once again and once again ran headlong into some ownage. I'd never criticize someone else's ride unless s/he explicitly needed it done, as you did.
Very few of us would take an automatic Accord over an SVT Focus, mag racing be damned.
And I do think that's all you do.
Quote from: omicron on February 23, 2010, 07:39:41 AM
Repeat: two in Australia. That smacks to me of a face-saving recall rather than any sort based in truth.
And so on. Not convinced, I'm afraid.
Your pedals are on the other side, remember; there may be differences significant enough to circumvent the issue.
Regardless, this has moved beyond a simple mea culpa recall. If the goal were to save face, they've lost more by recalling millions of vehicles, causing mass panic (the media certainly helped here), and having their underhanded tactics (which, admittedly, most companies also do engage in) outed in public.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2010, 11:51:02 PM
Deflection fail x 2.
:wtf:
Now explain to me what a Sunbird has to do with anything seeing how no one on this board owns one. (btw, if I was as anal and obnoxious as you I would have ridiculed you for saying Sunbird when what you meant was Sunfire)
Quote from: Raza on February 23, 2010, 08:15:36 AM
Very few of us would take an automatic Accord over an SVT Focus, mag racing be damned.
And I do think that's all you do.
I thought he had a 6 speed?
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 23, 2010, 06:57:57 AM
Well, there is this on: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14016
Gocougs
Junior member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Washington state speeding ticket
Hi,
I was in Seattle for the long weekend with a friend, and drove back to the east side on Monday evening. On the I-90 around Ritzville, I was behind a couple cars that were stuck behind a truck, so I got into the left lane (it was two lanes in my direction) to pass the truck. I sped up, and just as I was ready to get in front of the truck, I noticed a cop car parked on the side of the road. I got back into the right lane, in front of the truck, and returned my speed to the limit, hoping that it wouldn't be a big deal because I had finished passing and was at the appropriate speed again, but I ended up getting pulled over and being given a ticket. I was clocked going 82 (the speed limit was 70) in that stretch in the left lane.
This is my first ticket of any kind, ever, and I have very little experience with the law as I've never been in any kind of trouble before, so I am coming to you for help. I am a college student with very strict parents, and if they find out that I got this ticket, they will stop helping to pay for my tuition. As an out of state student with out of state tuition fees (I'm from CA), that would be the worst thing that could happen to me. I've read about deferrment as a possibility and some people have told me in WA it is legal to exceed the speed limit to pass and that I shouldn't have been given a ticket, but I keep getting conflicting information, so I'm hoping perhaps someone here can shed some light on this. I am under my parents' car insurance, so if this goes on my record and the rates get raised...well...I just can't think about what will happen.
If anyone has any suggestions about what to do regarding this ticket, I'd really appreciate any of your help!!
Ha! Nothing proves how good I am as when you guys stalk me.
Quote from: TBR on February 23, 2010, 09:04:09 AM
:wtf:
Now explain to me what a Sunbird has to do with anything seeing how no one on this board owns one. (btw, if I was as anal and obnoxious as you I would have ridiculed you for saying Sunbird when what you meant was Sunfire)
I gotta say, you got determination and guts to get mowed under so many times.
One of these days you may pull off a coup, but until then...
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 01:03:25 PM
I gotta say, you got determination and guts to get mowed under so many times.
One of these days you may pull off a coup, but until then...
Now that's a deflection.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 23, 2010, 06:57:57 AM
Well, there is this on: http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14016
Gocougs
Junior member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Washington state speeding ticket
Hi,
I was in Seattle for the long weekend with a friend, and drove back to the east side on Monday evening. On the I-90 around Ritzville, I was behind a couple cars that were stuck behind a truck, so I got into the left lane (it was two lanes in my direction) to pass the truck. I sped up, and just as I was ready to get in front of the truck, I noticed a cop car parked on the side of the road. I got back into the right lane, in front of the truck, and returned my speed to the limit, hoping that it wouldn't be a big deal because I had finished passing and was at the appropriate speed again, but I ended up getting pulled over and being given a ticket. I was clocked going 82 (the speed limit was 70) in that stretch in the left lane.
This is my first ticket of any kind, ever, and I have very little experience with the law as I've never been in any kind of trouble before, so I am coming to you for help. I am a college student with very strict parents, and if they find out that I got this ticket, they will stop helping to pay for my tuition. As an out of state student with out of state tuition fees (I'm from CA), that would be the worst thing that could happen to me. I've read about deferrment as a possibility and some people have told me in WA it is legal to exceed the speed limit to pass and that I shouldn't have been given a ticket, but I keep getting conflicting information, so I'm hoping perhaps someone here can shed some light on this. I am under my parents' car insurance, so if this goes on my record and the rates get raised...well...I just can't think about what will happen.
If anyone has any suggestions about what to do regarding this ticket, I'd really appreciate any of your help!!
Interesting.
His posts often reflect the image of horn-rimmed youth ensconsed in parent's basement, smirk firmly planted on acne riddled sallow complexion acting out self-aggrandizing pretense of adult behaviour. ;)
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 01:01:15 PM
Ha! Nothing proves how good I am as when you guys stalk me.
Or how pathetic.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 23, 2010, 01:36:12 PM
Or how pathetic.
No, Internet stalking is pathetic. And why would you do such a thing? Or why would one taunt like a nine-year-old as does FoMoJo?
(It's a rhetorical question, BTW.)
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 01:41:57 PM
No, Internet stalking is pathetic. And why would you do such a thing? Or why would one taunt like a nine-year-old as does FoMoJo?
(It's a rhetorical question, BTW.)
Well, in my case it could be senility :nutty: :huh:.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 22, 2010, 09:05:05 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/
This doesn't prove anything. How exactly did he prove anything? He rigged it to go to WOT.
The test method is pure fail, for the reasons outlined by Toyota.
I'm not trying to necessarily defend Toyota, but I understand a little better than this guy how an accelerator pedal works, and his scenario doesn't make sense.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 23, 2010, 02:01:48 PM
Well, in my case it could be senility :nutty: :huh:.
Probably not.
Quote from: R-inge on February 23, 2010, 02:14:09 PM
The test method is pure fail, for the reasons outlined by Toyota.
I'm not trying to necessarily defend Toyota, but I understand a little better than this guy how an accelerator pedal works, and his scenario doesn't make sense.
I'm all ears too for viable proof but all we have to date (at least in the public forum) are theories as what MAY have happened; some I think are just plain bogus (floor mats), some are just plain impossible (faking a signal) and some are infinitesimally unlikely (shim problem).
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 02:26:41 PM
I'm all ears too for viable proof but all we have to date (at least in the public forum) are theories as what MAY have happened; some I think are just plain bogus (floor mats), some are just plain impossible (faking a signal) and some are infinitesimally unlikely (shim problem).
My thing is that there isn't enough info out there. I get from the illustration that 565 gave us how the shim thing is supposed to work, but I'd like to know how the friction there is causing the problem. Also, is this a problem only with cars which have gone WOT and the pedal sticks to the bulkhead, or are cars taking off on their own without driver input? Too many variables still for a good discussion of the facts.
Quote from: omicron on February 23, 2010, 07:39:41 AM
It should be pointed out that the only Toyota recalled in Australia has been the the Prius, and even that is due to 'reports of inconsistent brake feel during slow and steady braking on certain road conditions such as a pot hole, bumpy or slippery road surfaces when the ABS is activated. The brake pedal feel may not be consistent, but the brakes will continue to operate. There have been a total of 111 cases reported globally, two in Australia''.
http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/small-passenger/toyota/prius/prius-brake-recall-made-official-18240 (http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2010/small-passenger/toyota/prius/prius-brake-recall-made-official-18240)
Repeat: two in Australia. That smacks to me of a face-saving recall rather than any sort based in truth.
In respect to the other cars, I remain unconvinced that there is such a fundamental difference in pedal or floormat design between the various markets. Questions arise - why are LHD floor mats different to RHD ones (or pedals, for that matter)? Why do recalled RHD UK pedals differ in design to non-recalled RHD Australian pedals (assuming there is in fact a difference, ignoring what has been said by Toyota employees)? Are floormats bought from third-party retailers subject to any recalls, because if not, that would suggest that every single third-party retailer in the world sells floormats for Toyotas that are fundamentally different to OE-Toyota floormats, which I find to be hilariously illogical? Why are LHD American Toyotas/Lexuses able to be the only cars in the world in which the brakes are unable to override the engine?
And so on. Not convinced, I'm afraid.
Toyota sources their accelerator pedals from several different subcontracted suppliers and the different suppliers have slightly different designs (although either can bolt right into the same car). The "sticky" pedals in question came from a company called CTS. Cars built in Japan used a pedal from supplier Denso, which has a slightly different design from the CTS pedal. My guess is that Toyota's assembled in Australia also use Denso pedals. Several of the RHD models that Toyota sells in the UK are built in the UK and these use the CTS-sourced pedal. Hence why RHD cars in the UK are subject to the recall while RHDs in Australia are not.
Also, the brakes in US market Toyotas/Lexuses are powerful enough to overcome the engine. C&D demonstrated as much in a recent article where they brought a V6 Camry up to highway speed, pushed the throttle wide open and held it while standing on the brakes at the same. Even from 100 mph, they were able to bring the car to a stop just by standing on the brakes when the throttle was held wide open. From 120 mph, they burned up the brakes, but they managed to slow the car to 10 mph, which wouldn't not be a fatal crash. My guess is that people are either too panicked to step on the brakes, or aren't stepping on the brakes hard enough (most people aren't accustomed to having to really apply significant pressure to the brakes to stop the car).
Some interesting comments from the hearing. It seems that they'll, eventually, have to prove that it's not electrical malfunction.
Toyota official says massive recalls won't totally fix acceleration issues, apologizes anew (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/market_news/article.jsp?content=D9E245602&page=1)
WASHINGTON (AP) - The president of Toyota's U.S. operations acknowledged to skeptical lawmakers on Tuesday that the company's recalls of millions of its cars may "not totally" solve the problem of sudden and dangerous acceleration.
"We are vigilant and we continue to look for potential causes," Toyota's James Lentz told a congressional panel. However, he repeated his company's position that unexpected acceleration in some of the company's most popular cars and trucks was caused by one of two problems ? misplaced floor mats and sticking accelerator pedals.
He insisted electronic systems connected to the gas pedal and fuel line did not contribute to the problem, drawing sharp criticism from lawmakers who said such a possibility should be further explored ? and from a tearful woman driver who could not stop her runaway Lexus.
"Shame on you, Toyota," Rhonda Smith, of Sevierville, Tenn., said at a congressional hearing. Then she added a second "shame on you" directed at federal highway safety regulators.
Texas Republican Rep. Joe Barton cautioned his colleagues early in the hearing against conducting a "witch hunt" and said "We don't want to just assume automatically that Toyota has done something wrong and has tried to cover it up." But midway through Lentz's testimony, Barton said of Toyota's investigation of the problems: "In my opinion, it's a sham."
Lentz said the company had not completely ruled out an electronics malfunction and was still investigating causes of the sudden acceleration. Still, "We have not found a malfunction" in the electronics of any of the cars at issue, he said.
As to Smith's harrowing story, "I'm embarrassed for what happened," Lentz said. "I want her and her husband to feel safe about driving our products," Lentz said.
Three congressional panels are investigating Toyota's problems, which affect a huge number of Americans. Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide ? more than 6 million in the United States ? since last fall because of unintended acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid. It is also investigating steering concerns in Corollas. People with Toyotas have complained of their vehicles speeding out of control despite efforts to slow down, sometimes resulting in deadly crashes. The government has received complaints of 34 deaths linked to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles since 2000.
Lentz, who choked up while discussing the death of his own brother more than 20 years ago in a car accident, said he understood the pain.
"I know what those families go through," he said.
Lentz has said in the past that he was confident Toyota's fixes on the recalled vehicles would correct the problems.
But when pressed by Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., on whether the two recalls Toyota put in place to deal with the issue would completely solve it, Lentz replied: "Not totally."
Still, he said chances of unintended accelerations were "very, very slim" once the recall was complete. Lentz also said Toyota was putting in new brakes that can override the gas pedal on almost all of its new vehicles and a majority of its vehicles already on the road.
Meanwhile, Toyota president Akio Toyoda, who will testify before a separate panel on Wednesday, said he took "full responsibility" for the uncertainty felt by Toyota owners and offered his condolences to a San Diego, Calif., family who were killed in late August, reigniting interest in the problems.
"I will do everything in my power to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again," Toyoda said in prepared testimony for Wednesday's hearing to the House Government Oversight Committee. "My name is on every car. You have my personal commitment that Toyota will work vigorously and unceasingly to restore the trust of our customers."
Lawmakers heard a brief, but riveting, description from Smith, the Tennessee woman whose Toyota-made Lexus suddenly zoomed to 100 miles per hour as she tried to get it to stop ? shifting to neutral, trying to throw the car into reverse and hitting the emergency brake. Finally, her car slowed enough that she was able to pull it off the road onto the median and turn off the engine.
Fighting back tears, she described her nightmare ride of October 2006, calling it "a near death experience."
"After six miles, God intervened" and slowed the car, she said. She added that it took a long time for Toyota to respond to her complaints.
In an often contentious full day of testimony, lawmakers returned again and again to the question of whether electronic malfunctions may have contributed to the speeding cars.
"We are confident that no problems exist with the electric throttle control system in our vehicles," Lentz said. He cited "fail-safe mechanisms" in the cars that were designed to shut off or reduce engine power "in the event of a system failure."
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told the panel in prepared testimony that possible electronics problems were being looked into by his agency. He said the company's recalls were important steps but "we don't maintain that they answer every question."
Toyota hired a consulting firm to analyze whether electronic problems could cause unintended acceleration. The firm, Exponent Inc., found no link between the two. But committee investigators said the testing studied only a small number of vehicles
Tracking down an electrical problem can be far more difficult, expensive and time-consuming than finding a mechanical problem. Electrical problems can have more than one source, and they can come from inside or outside the car. Mechanical problems often leave clues such as physical damage, where electronic troubles can be hidden in software or leave no trace at all.
House investigators who reviewed Toyota's customer call database found that 70 percent of the complaints of sudden acceleration were for vehicles that are not subject to the recalls over floor mats or sticky pedals.
Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., chairman of the subcommittee, said Toyota "misled the American public by saying that they and other independent sources had thoroughly analyzed the electronics systems and eliminated electronics as a possible cause of sudden unintended acceleration when, in fact, the only such review was a flawed study conducted by a company retained by Toyota's lawyers."
Lentz apologized anew for the company's slow handling of problems. "We have not lived up to the high standards our customers and the public have come to expect from Toyota," he said.
"Put simply, it has taken us too long to come to grips with a rare but serious set of safety issues, despite all of our good faith efforts," said Lentz, president and chief operating officer of Toyota Motor Sales USA. Inc.
Separately, among hundreds of Toyota dealers lobbying members of Congress Tuesday, there seemed to be widespread rancor toward a federal government they view as picking on the automaker, at least in part because of the government's investment of billions of dollars in General Motors and Chrysler.
"That's hard for me as a citizen to understand why my tax dollars are going in that direction," Paul Atkinson, a Houston-area Toyota dealer, said at a news conference that also served as a pep rally for the visiting dealers. "To compete with the government as an individual entrepreneur is pretty tough."
That article sucked. (no offense Jo!) I have a hard time with this proceeding thanks to the dramatic "testimony" of these other people. Unless they can offer expert testimony that proves what that cause of the acceleration really is, I'm sorry but I don't want to hear from them. Especially if they're just going to sit there bawling.
"Lentz also said Toyota was putting in new brakes that can override the gas pedal on almost all of its new vehicles and a majority of its vehicles already on the road." I thought they were programming the vehicles to respond to brake application by cutting throttle?
I doubt much will be resolved at the hearing other than a public tongue-lashing. However, the 'electronic malfunction' possibility seems to be firmly entrenched in the minds of the Congressional panel. That Toyota has kept on dismissing it with little follow through does not reflect well on them. As well that...House investigators who reviewed Toyota's customer call database found that 70 percent of the complaints of sudden acceleration were for vehicles that are not subject to the recalls over floor mats or sticky pedals...suggest that the floor mats and sticky pedals are not really addressing the problem at all. From other correspondence, emails, it seems they were just done to appease the investigators and save money by not having to address the real problem; whatever that is.
When will it end?
I suppose it's possible that some manufacturers got a bit ahead of themselves regarding electronic controls. There is the reality that lab tests cannot duplicate all the real-world scenarios; even when testing is done in the real world. I wouldn't doubt that all the manufacturers are conducting a serious review of all their electronic modules and controls.
Another interesting article...
Toyota faces criminal, SEC, congressional investigations (http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/toyota_faces_criminal_sec_cong.html)
It's starting to sound a bit more serious.
Federal prosecutors have launched a criminal investigation into Toyota Motor Corp.'s safety problems and the Securities and Exchange Commission was probing what the automaker told investors, the company disclosed Monday. Newly released internal documents showed that Toyota officials visited with U.S. regulators years ago who "laughed and rolled their eyes in disbelief" over safety claims.
Think we'll see riveted-to-the-floorboards floor mats a la the step-on-the-brake-to-shift-out-park nonsense (owing to the Audi 5k issue of the '80s)?
This is becoming a case study on sociological terms; a combination of Y2k, the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and even a little bit of Flat Earth.
I wonder if Ayn Rand drives a Toyota.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
Think we'll see riveted-to-the-floorboards floor mats a la the step-on-the-brake-to-shift-out-park nonsense (owing to the Audi 5k issue of the '80s)?
This is becoming a case study on sociological terms; a combination of Y2k, the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and even a little bit of Flat Earth.
I think the whole thrust of the Congressional Hearing is to try and prove that Toyota used the floor mat and sticky pedal excuses as a subterfuge to avoid having to deal with the 'electronic malfunction' problems. If there is any proof of this, they are in a lot of trouble.
I can imagine this will play out to be a major bitch slap to Toyota over the next decade, especially as technology increases in cars. No thanks, give me cable- and hydraulic-operated everything, thanks.
An executive told a House committee Toyota's recall might ?not totally? solve the problem of unintended acceleration in its vehicles
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 23, 2010, 04:29:55 PM
I think the whole thrust of the Congressional Hearing is to try and prove that Toyota used the floor mat and sticky pedal excuses as a subterfuge to avoid having to deal with the 'electronic malfunction' problems. If there is any proof of this, they are in a lot of trouble.
But you'll not convince me that the NHTSA had its hand in these solutions as well. They were bullying Toyota into
inventing finding a cause, and the closest Toyota could come up with was "maybe these."
Toyota hadn't found the cause but the NHTSA forced them to cop to something ridiculous. It's possible Toyota was hoping that this would solve their PR problem, as I believe that relatively early on they concluded that these few dozen complaints were BS.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 23, 2010, 04:37:21 PM
I can imagine this will play out to be a major bitch slap to Toyota over the next decade, especially as technology increases in cars. No thanks, give me cable- and hydraulic-operated everything, thanks.
I've had cable throttles stick wide open on motorbikes.
Quote from: MX793 on February 23, 2010, 04:42:47 PM
I've had cable throttles stick wide open on motorbikes.
How about on a car?
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/toyota-execs-recall-answers-leave-lawmakers-fuming/19370756/
Corolla's Steering Concerns
Three congressional panels are investigating Toyota's problems. The hearings are important because Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles worldwide - more than 6 million in the United States - since last fall because of sudden acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius hybrid. It is also investigating steering concerns in Corollas. People with Toyotas have complained of their vehicles speeding out of control in their efforts to slow down, sometimes resulting in deadly crashes. The government has received complaints of 34 deaths linked to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles since 2000.
:rockon:
Drive-by-wire is statistically more reliable than cables and hydraulics. This is why modern airliner mfrs do the former and have all but abandoned the latter.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 23, 2010, 04:44:10 PM
How about on a car?
I have, more than once. It's not a big deal unless you:
1) are a moron
a) drive a Toyota with drive by wire and a push button start
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 04:44:48 PM
Drive-by-wire is statistically more reliable than cables and hydraulics. This is why modern airliner mfrs do the former and have all but abandoned the latter.
It's a good thing Toyota doesn't build airliners.
Quote from: the Teuton on February 23, 2010, 04:44:10 PM
How about on a car?
If an electronic throttle plate angle and throttle pedal position don't correlate the car will go into limp mode; at least, ours will.
Quote from: R-inge on February 23, 2010, 05:01:17 PM
If an electronic throttle plate angle and throttle pedal position don't correlate the car will go into limp mode; at least, ours will.
Toyotas default to wide open throttle and take away braking and steering control. :huh:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 23, 2010, 05:09:43 PM
Toyotas default to wide open throttle and take away braking and steering control. :huh:
I laughed hard at this. :rockon:
Quote from: 565 on February 22, 2010, 05:26:46 PM
Road noise probably turns alot of people off Honda. I kid you not, I think the road noise in my parents accord is worse than in my Z06. Plus Honda's seem to rattle alot, which annoys me too.
Yea my car is incredibly loud
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 23, 2010, 01:16:37 PM
His posts often reflect the image of horn-rimmed youth ensconsed in parent's basement, smirk firmly planted on acne riddled sallow complexion acting out self-aggrandizing pretense of adult behaviour. ;)
Stop. You're turning me on.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
Think we'll see riveted-to-the-floorboards floor mats a la the step-on-the-brake-to-shift-out-park nonsense (owing to the Audi 5k issue of the '80s)?
This is becoming a case study on sociological terms; a combination of Y2k, the Boy Who Cried Wolf, and even a little bit of Flat Earth.
So there's nothing at all to these recalls? They're all driver error?
Quote from: Jon? on February 23, 2010, 07:58:19 PM
So there's nothing at all to these recalls? They're all driver error?
With the world's best manufacturer furiously slaving away to save its reputation, and myriad other sources trying to find a cause, no one has shown done so. For months. Also remember the "complaints" are from utterly unofficial and biased sources and still amount to no more than a few score in millions of vehicles sold over about a decade.
At this point yes, IMO it's pointing to hysteria + driver error a la Audi 5000. I haven't reached a succinct judgment yet, but I'm getting there.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 09:13:21 PM
With the world's best manufacturer furiously slaving away to save its reputation, and myriad other sources trying to find a cause, no one has shown done so. For months. Also remember the "complaints" are from utterly unofficial and biased sources and still amount to no more than a few score in millions of vehicles sold over about a decade.
At this point yes, IMO it's pointing to hysteria + driver error a la Audi 5000. I haven't reached a succinct judgment yet, but I'm getting there.
Biased sources? Of course owners are biased. Usually they heavily favour the car they bought, not the other way around. By the way, where else are the complaints going to come from?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 09:13:21 PM
With the world's best manufacturer furiously slaving away to save its reputation, and myriad other sources trying to find a cause, no one has shown done so. For months. Also remember the "complaints" are from utterly unofficial and biased sources and still amount to no more than a few score in millions of vehicles sold over about a decade.
At this point yes, IMO it's pointing to hysteria + driver error a la Audi 5000. I haven't reached a succinct judgment yet, but I'm getting there.
Somebody needs to kick that giant soap box out from under you.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 23, 2010, 09:16:27 PM
Biased sources? Of course owners are biased. Usually they heavily favour the car they bought, not the other way around. By the way, where else are the complaints going to come from?
Like insurance companies.
The operative point being garbage in = garbage out.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2010, 09:34:15 PM
Like insurance companies.
The operative point being garbage in = garbage out.
Why is this only a problem now with Toyotas
I think you're blind to the Six Sigma religion
Have any of you looked at TTAC.com's dissection of the recalled pedal? The design of it is a little dumb. The "friction fingers" and the valley they ride in to provide pedal resistance are wedge-shaped.
I watched the inquisition. This article sums it up pretty well. It was all about appologies and denials. When faced with some damning remarks on confidential company documents, he didn't understand the English well enough to respond.
In response to the possibility of 'electronic problems', which he insisted were impossible, he said they were introducing additional logic into the controls which would act as a fail-safe measure. One of the Congressmen said (something to the effect) "so you're going to use more electronics to fix a problem caused by electronics". The response was something like this...
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20100225&Category=OPINION03&ArtNo=2250352&Ref=AR&Profile=1148&Q=100&MaxW=290&MaxH=290)
I, almost, felt sorry for them.
Toyota executives' testimony comes off as clueless (http://detnews.com/article/20100225/OPINION03/2250352/1148/auto01/Toyota-executives--testimony-comes-off-as-clueless)
Akio Toyoda's story doesn't add up.
The president of Toyota Motor Corp., the centrally controlled behemoth founded 73 years ago by his grandfather, told a congressional committee Wednesday that he didn't know about mounting sudden-acceleration complaints with Toyota vehicles until late last year.
He also didn't know the substance of a corporate briefing paper prepared in July that touted $100 million in savings on recalls, warned about sudden acceleration complaints in Toyota and Lexus models and described a federal bureaucracy that is not "industry-friendly."
But now, faced with a global brand and P.R. fiasco, Toyoda knows with "absolute certainty" that the sudden unintended acceleration complaints tied to 34 deaths and the recall of 8.5 million vehicles worldwide cannot be attributed to electronic throttle controls in Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks.
Really?
The assurances might be more convincing -- to Congress, to consumers, to dealers and to suppliers in the United States -- if the Japanese automaker moved sooner than earlier this month to commission an independent review of its electronic conclusions. But it didn't.
They might be more persuasive if the firm hired to do the testing, California-based Exponent Inc., didn't have ties to Toyota's legal counsel; if contacts on the issue between Toyota and U.S. regulators weren't so extensive; if Toyota's top American executive in the United States, James Lentz, hadn't testified the day before that Toyota's fixes had "not totally" fixed the problem.
Simple question, Toyoda-san: If the electronic throttle control isn't (with "absolute certainty") the problem and if the planned fixes aren't sufficient, what is?
The hearings over the past two days are remarkable for what they didn't yield -- namely, definitive answers. But we do know now how little the top executives in the most revered automaker on the planet seem to know about the circumstances surrounding the most serious threat to their corporate reputation in a generation.
To watch the hearings is to sense a lack of urgency -- the new global quality committee doesn't meet till the end of March? -- and to see a company still processing the reality of the mess it faces, however much Toyoda blames it on a "speed of expansion" that "outpaced the development and training of our people."
"I'm embarrassed for you, sir," Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., said during Toyoda's testimony to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. "I'm embarrassed for dealers. I'm embarrassed for the thousands of people who work for Toyota across the United States."
Why? Lots of reasons, the biggest of which is the simple fact that Toyota's facade of all-knowing invincibility, of being an "American company," of always putting customers first lies shattered -- all of it from the mouths of top executives, including the guy whose name is on the building.
The customer, as Toyoda and his president for North America, Yoshimi Inaba, conceded, increasingly did not come first. High-profile complaints, like that of the "possessed" '06 Lexus ES 350 driven by Rhonda Smith from Sevierville, Tenn., were summarily dismissed.
Astonishingly, her harrowing story apparently was unknown to Lentz. He didn't know the well-publicized details of Guadalupe Alberto, a 77-year-old who died in Flint when the Camry she was driving crashed into a tree -- a testament to his stunning cluelessness, pitiful internal communication, Toyota's lawyers or all three.
Over two days, Toyoda, Inaba and Lentz exposed the fiction that Toyota is an "American" company, if that is defined to mean anything more than a foreign company that employs 172,000 folks in plants, offices and dealerships around the country.
But for sales and marketing decision-making, every substantive call affecting Toyota's operations in the United States -- manufacturing, engineering, safety and recalls, communications -- is made in Japan, they confirmed, a direct contradiction to the corporate spin for, oh, the past decade.
And "Japan," to borrow Lentz's usage, failed to connect the dots on a burgeoning problem that landed its president before a congressional committee and ripped a gaping hole in Toyota's envied reputation for bulletproof quality, reliability and customer service.
Toyoda, the scion of the industrial dynasty, said the right things. He apologized. He took responsibility. He essentially admitted that ambition outstripped execution and strayed from the corporate creed that made Toyota the brand powerhouse it became.
But he didn't bring an end to the nightmare. Buried in his careful statements is red meat for trial lawyers looking to make a buck off Toyota's $30 billion-plus cash hoard and red meat for like-minded politicians trolling for contributions from trial lawyers.
More obvious is the unmistakable admission that Toyota, the gold standard of the global auto industry, allowed the arrogance of success to blind it to festering troubles within.
Honestly Toyota is getting crap because they have been making a public effort to look like they are fixing the problem, when no one even knows what the problem is. All the vulture lawmakers have descented on the issue because it distracts the public away from the shitty job they are doing themselves. The economy is in tatters, unemployment is ridiculously high. the domestic automakers have basically facepalmed, and 2 of the Big 3 have pretty much imploded. Those real problems are all hard to fix. What's easy is to target some elusive acceleration problem and act like they can do anything about it, which is why lawmakers are basically wasting their time with this. Honestly as fun as insulting some Japanese guy who barely speaks English is, do they think they can actually change anything with some sort of hearing? Do they think Toyota knows what's going on this whole time, and have been secretly holding out for kicks?
Honestly has ANYONE, ANYONE, including all those law makers, critics, safety organizations, owners managed to actually reliability recreate the phenomenon? I'm not talking about rewiring the car in what you think might be the problem. But to actually isolate a problematic car and reproduce the problem and inspect that car?
When you take your car to the dealer for a problem, the first thing they do is to ask you to recreate the problem. Unless you can recreate the problem, they won't know what to fix. It's not about being cheap or saving money, it's about simple logistics. How are you going to fix a problem, if you haven't seen the problem. They aren't psychics and they aren't gods, they can only fix a problem that's present and observable.
I don't think anyone out there has actually seen this thing recreated I don't think Toyota engineers have, I don't think the safety organizations have. We are just going on stories from a handful of frantic people. You cannot find an engineering fix from that.
And honestly how did they even get the number of 34 deaths caused by the problem? I mean how did they even confirm it, if they couldn't reproduce the problem after the crash? I think those were complied by compliants. Hell anyone could compile a compliant. If someone I knew crashed their Camry, I could say, wow Kim isn't the type to crash her car, she must have been a victim of this accelerator thing. People ask why does this only happen with Toyota. It certainly doesn't. There are literally hundreds of accounts of unaccounted acceleration from various makes. It actually even happened while I was in a car. It was a Mazda 626 my dad drove, and the car would not stop accelerating, he had to put it in neutral and turn it off. It never happened again.
Here's a testimony from one of the owners at the congressional heariing
Quotehttp://Ms. SMITH: On that Thursday, October the 12th, 2006, I was driving from my home in Sevierville, and upon entering the interstate I accelerated with everyone else into the flow of traffic. At this time I lost all control of the acceleration of the vehicle. The car goes into passing gear, and the cruise light comes on. I put the car into all available gears, including neutral, but then I put it in reverse, and it remains in reverse as the car speeds to over 100 miles per hour down the interstate. I placed both feet on the brake after I firmly engaged the emergency brake, and nothing slows the car. And I prayed for God to help me.
I called my husband on the Bluetooth phone system. I knew--I'm sorry. I knew he could not help me, but I wanted to hear his voice one more time. After six miles, God intervened. As the car came very slowly to a stop, I pulled it to the left median. With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down at 35 miles an hour. It would not shut off. Finally, at 33 miles per hour, I was able to turn the engine off. After my husband arrived, he found nothing unusual about the accelerator or the floormats. When we finally forced Toyota to respond in writing, we received a five-sentence analysis stating, and I quote, "When properly maintained, the brakes will always override the accelerator." Well, we know that's a lie. We've never wavered from our belief that our problem was electronic, not wandering floormats. In our view, they've demonstrated an uncaring attitude and disregard for life. The results have been tragic, and today I must say shame on you, Toyota, for being so greedy.
Anyone see anything wrong with the testimony?
Quote from: NomisR on February 25, 2010, 09:56:48 AM
Here's a testimony from one of the owners at the congressional heariing
Anyone see anything wrong with the testimony?
Not necessarily. I am assuming that modern Toyotas use a shift by wire (for lack of a better term) transmission and if the electronics have gone mad then perhaps the car will not shift into neutral. As for the reverse part, there are safeties in place that will not allow reverse to be engaged if the car is moving forward. Just because he put the lever into R does not mean that R is what he got. Even most older transmissions with a mechanical interface had safeties.
A number of manufacturers have had problems with electronics over the past few years, Audi, VW, Ford (cruise control starting a fire when parked overnight) among a few. Research will provide many more examples. However, Toyota has hit the mother of all problems with this unintended accelleration gremlin. To simply deny that anything is wrong because they can't see it for themselves is just not good enough.
Anyone familiar with programming has likely encountered situations where problems are reported but they are unable to recreate them because the combination of circumstances causing the problem are so exceptional. I'm certainly not an expert on vehicle ECMs, but it stands to reason that decisions are based on the input from the various sensors and mechanisms involved in the various functions occurring at the moment. In effect, data is being analyzed and commands are issued, thousands upon thousands, over a very brief period. If there is a glitch, it could well contaminate or corrupt the operation of the ECM for an indeterminate period of time; particularly when the ECM is now responsible for so many functions.
I'm inclined to think that Toyota, and most other manufacturers, have now overreached the use of electronics to ensure 100% reliability in all of their vehicles. It has simply become too complex and virtually impossible to diagnose when exceptional circumstances create an unanticipated result. They need to step back and simplify the systems until they can, with certainty, rule out a possibility of malfunction. Toyota, through the statement of Lentz "We are confident that, from what we know today, it is not an electronics issue," but they cannot still rule it out. Because they cannot find the problem does not mean that it does not exist.
Quote from: NomisR on February 25, 2010, 09:56:48 AM
Here's a testimony from one of the owners at the congressional heariing
Anyone see anything wrong with the testimony?
LOL @ 100 MPH in reverse. :wtf:
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 25, 2010, 10:55:35 AM
LOL @ 100 MPH in reverse. :wtf:
It doesn't mean the car was going backward; it means that she put, or at least says she put the gear selector in "R."
So Toyota doesn't use mechanical couplings between its gear shifters and the transmission?! Do they not use gears, either? Magic?
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 25, 2010, 11:04:30 AM
So Toyota doesn't use mechanical couplings between its gear shifters and the transmission?! Do they not use gears, either? Magic?
Drive By Wire :huh:.
Quote from: NomisR on February 25, 2010, 09:56:48 AM
Here's a testimony from one of the owners at the congressional heariing
After six miles, God intervened. As the car came very slowly to a stop, I pulled it to the left median. With the car stopped and both feet still on the brake, the motor still revved up and down at 35 miles an hour. It would not shut off. Finally, at 33 miles per hour, I was able to turn the engine off
This is what perplexes me. Why do we need a system where one can start the car with the key in their pocket and allthey need do is push a button to start the car? What is wrong with an old fashioned mechanical ignition switch activated by a metal key? You want to turn off the engine you turn the key to off. So simple
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 25, 2010, 11:09:25 AM
This is what perplexes me. Why do we need a system where one can start the car with the key in their pocket and allthey need do is push a button to start the car? What is wrong with an old fashioned mechanical ignition switch activated by a metal key? You want to turn off the engine you turn the key to off. So simple
Or just mechanical links for everything. We have everything by wire and it makes the cars worse to drive, yet the car makers pushes for it. :facepalm:
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 25, 2010, 11:09:25 AM
This is what perplexes me. Why do we need a system where one can start the car with the key in their pocket and allthey need do is push a button to start the car? What is wrong with an old fashioned mechanical ignition switch activated by a metal key? You want to turn off the engine you turn the key to off. So simple
I can't remember which model started the recent trend; I recall the Honda S2000 as having that feature. However, imo, it is just a silly feature so people can pretend that they're driving a racing car :huh:.
The only 'push-button' start that I remember before that was on my father's 1937 Ford tudor. If you look closely, you can see the little button on the far left of the dash...
(http://cll.hemmings.com/story_image/43064-500-0.jpg)
However, to start it you turned the key, to make the connection, released the interlock lever on the steering column and then pushed the button to engage the starter. Our tractors had push-button start as well.
Multi-function ignition/locking systems, activated by turning the key on the column, made a lot more sense.
Quote from: NomisR on February 25, 2010, 11:13:46 AM
Or just mechanical links for everything. We have everything by wire and it makes the cars worse to drive, yet the car makers pushes for it. :facepalm:
I can see the benefit from the perspective of integrating the electronics and, if it were 100% reliable, I would say great! However, it's not. I don't think many of us expect our computers to work faultlessly forever; especially when trying to integrate diverse systems and software. Why should we expect a car's ECM to?
Quote from: 565 on February 25, 2010, 09:12:16 AM
Honestly Toyota is getting crap because they have been making a public effort to look like they are fixing the problem, when no one even knows what the problem is. All the vulture lawmakers have descented on the issue because it distracts the public away from the shitty job they are doing themselves. The economy is in tatters, unemployment is ridiculously high. the domestic automakers have basically facepalmed, and 2 of the Big 3 have pretty much imploded. Those real problems are all hard to fix. What's easy is to target some elusive acceleration problem and act like they can do anything about it, which is why lawmakers are basically wasting their time with this. Honestly as fun as insulting some Japanese guy who barely speaks English is, do they think they can actually change anything with some sort of hearing? Do they think Toyota knows what's going on this whole time, and have been secretly holding out for kicks?
Honestly has ANYONE, ANYONE, including all those law makers, critics, safety organizations, owners managed to actually reliability recreate the phenomenon? I'm not talking about rewiring the car in what you think might be the problem. But to actually isolate a problematic car and reproduce the problem and inspect that car?
When you take your car to the dealer for a problem, the first thing they do is to ask you to recreate the problem. Unless you can recreate the problem, they won't know what to fix. It's not about being cheap or saving money, it's about simple logistics. How are you going to fix a problem, if you haven't seen the problem. They aren't psychics and they aren't gods, they can only fix a problem that's present and observable.
I don't think anyone out there has actually seen this thing recreated I don't think Toyota engineers have, I don't think the safety organizations have. We are just going on stories from a handful of frantic people. You cannot find an engineering fix from that.
And honestly how did they even get the number of 34 deaths caused by the problem? I mean how did they even confirm it, if they couldn't reproduce the problem after the crash? I think those were complied by compliants. Hell anyone could compile a compliant. If someone I knew crashed their Camry, I could say, wow Kim isn't the type to crash her car, she must have been a victim of this accelerator thing. People ask why does this only happen with Toyota. It certainly doesn't. There are literally hundreds of accounts of unaccounted acceleration from various makes. It actually even happened while I was in a car. It was a Mazda 626 my dad drove, and the car would not stop accelerating, he had to put it in neutral and turn it off. It never happened again.
This +1million. Great post.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 11:22:05 AM
I can't remember which model started the recent trend; I recall the Honda S2000 as having that feature. However, imo, it is just a silly feature so people can pretend that they're driving a racing car :huh:.
The only 'push-button' start that I remember before that was on my father's 1937 Ford tudor. If you look closely, you can see the little button on the far left of the dash...
However, to start it you turned the key, to make the connection, released the interlock lever on the steering column and then pushed the button to engage the starter. Our tractors had push-button start as well.
Multi-function ignition/locking systems, activated by turning the key on the column, made a lot more sense.
Series 1 E-Type Jaguars also had a key you turned to "run" and a button you pushed to engage the starter. Still though, turning the key to off killed electrical power to the ignition circuit thereby killing the engine.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 11:22:05 AM
I can't remember which model started the recent trend; I recall the Honda S2000 as having that feature. However, imo, it is just a silly feature so people can pretend that they're driving a racing car :huh:.
The only 'push-button' start that I remember before that was on my father's 1937 Ford tudor. If you look closely, you can see the little button on the far left of the dash...
However, to start it you turned the key, to make the connection, released the interlock lever on the steering column and then pushed the button to engage the starter. Our tractors had push-button start as well.
Multi-function ignition/locking systems, activated by turning the key on the column, made a lot more sense.
Even with the S2000, it has a key you need to turn before you can start the car, same with my Elise, although that was more done as a way to bypass some of the security requirements the US has for starters.
Quote from: 565 on February 25, 2010, 09:12:16 AM
Honestly Toyota is getting crap because they have been making a public effort to look like they are fixing the problem, when no one even knows what the problem is. All the vulture lawmakers have descented on the issue because it distracts the public away from the shitty job they are doing themselves. The economy is in tatters, unemployment is ridiculously high. the domestic automakers have basically facepalmed, and 2 of the Big 3 have pretty much imploded. Those real problems are all hard to fix. What's easy is to target some elusive acceleration problem and act like they can do anything about it, which is why lawmakers are basically wasting their time with this. Honestly as fun as insulting some Japanese guy who barely speaks English is, do they think they can actually change anything with some sort of hearing? Do they think Toyota knows what's going on this whole time, and have been secretly holding out for kicks?
Honestly has ANYONE, ANYONE, including all those law makers, critics, safety organizations, owners managed to actually reliability recreate the phenomenon? I'm not talking about rewiring the car in what you think might be the problem. But to actually isolate a problematic car and reproduce the problem and inspect that car?
When you take your car to the dealer for a problem, the first thing they do is to ask you to recreate the problem. Unless you can recreate the problem, they won't know what to fix. It's not about being cheap or saving money, it's about simple logistics. How are you going to fix a problem, if you haven't seen the problem. They aren't psychics and they aren't gods, they can only fix a problem that's present and observable.
I don't think anyone out there has actually seen this thing recreated I don't think Toyota engineers have, I don't think the safety organizations have. We are just going on stories from a handful of frantic people. You cannot find an engineering fix from that.
And honestly how did they even get the number of 34 deaths caused by the problem? I mean how did they even confirm it, if they couldn't reproduce the problem after the crash? I think those were complied by compliants. Hell anyone could compile a compliant. If someone I knew crashed their Camry, I could say, wow Kim isn't the type to crash her car, she must have been a victim of this accelerator thing. People ask why does this only happen with Toyota. It certainly doesn't. There are literally hundreds of accounts of unaccounted acceleration from various makes. It actually even happened while I was in a car. It was a Mazda 626 my dad drove, and the car would not stop accelerating, he had to put it in neutral and turn it off. It never happened again.
565 again tells it like it is. Toyota is looking bad because they're trying to walk the impossibly thin line of knowing there is no problem (or knowing there is no evidence and that no one can recreate it) yet trying to appease the "vultures."
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 12:41:59 PM
565 again tells it like it is. Toyota is looking bad because they're trying to walk the impossibly thin line of knowing there is no problem (or knowing there is no evidence and that no one can recreate it) yet trying to appease the "vultures."
Yeah, I mean, a hundred complaints amoungst 4 million cars makes those problems statistically insignificant. If it was a true problem, people would be dying left and right already and it would've been public long before this.
I'll try to not derail this thread, but this again demonstrates what a disaster it is for government to be involved in regulating business. For example, the ridiculous "so you're going to use electronics to fix electronics?" quip. Ugh. Complete ignorance this kangaroo court. They do not understand technical issues. They do not understand statistical issues. They only understand trying to get re-elected.
Toyota should just call it like it sees rather than trying to mealy-mouth their way through it: "We find no proof, no one else has found any proof, and all we have to go on are statistically biased/unreliable/nonsensical accounts. Until someone can prove something, we're going to continue making and selling cars."
Quote from: ifcar on February 25, 2010, 11:01:13 AM
It doesn't mean the car was going backward; it means that she put, or at least says she put the gear selector in "R."
Camrys and Corollas don't use shift-by-wire, and I'd be hard-pressed to even think of a Toyota that does save for perhaps the LS.
That claim was bunk. You put your average Toyota into reverse, and it will go into reverse; do it at 100 mph and at best you'll stall the engine and at worse grenade the transaxle.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 25, 2010, 10:15:00 AM
Not necessarily. I am assuming that modern Toyotas use a shift by wire (for lack of a better term) transmission and if the electronics have gone mad then perhaps the car will not shift into neutral. As for the reverse part, there are safeties in place that will not allow reverse to be engaged if the car is moving forward. Just because he put the lever into R does not mean that R is what he got. Even most older transmissions with a mechanical interface had safeties.
I don't think it applies to that year, since ES330 is exactly the same as the Camry, I'm pretty sure it wasn't present in the same year Camry either. Only car in the Toyota line i've seen so far with shift by wire is the newest model Prius.
I still call BS on that.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 12:59:15 PM
Camrys and Corollas don't use shift-by-wire, and I'd be hard-pressed to even think of a Toyota that does save for perhaps the LS.
That claim was bunk. You put your average Toyota into reverse, and it will go into reverse; do it at 100 mph and at best you'll stall the engine and at worse grenade the transaxle.
The car in question was a Lexus ES 350, same model as the one that killed the family in San Diego.
Here's what Toyota says about the transmission...
6-Speed Automatic Transmission with Sequential Shift
The Super Electronically Controlled (Super ECT) transmission with Sequential Shift Mode delivers quick, smooth acceleration and optimum performance
The ES uses the Camry drive train, and the Camry uses good ole fashioned mechanical shift linkage. Put an ES in reverse, and it will go into reverse.
The claim that the owner put the ES into reverse and the car kept accelerating is impossible (and illustrative of what Toyota is facing).
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 01:24:40 PM
The car in question was a Lexus ES 350, same model as the one that killed the family in San Diego.
Here's what Toyota says about the transmission...
6-Speed Automatic Transmission with Sequential Shift
The Super Electronically Controlled (Super ECT) transmission with Sequential Shift Mode delivers quick, smooth acceleration and optimum performance
Yeah, but based on the testimony of the lady in congress, her model is 2006 which is a 5 speed transmission. I believe there's still mechanical linkage when you shift from P to R to N to D.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 12:59:15 PM
Camrys and Corollas don't use shift-by-wire, and I'd be hard-pressed to even think of a Toyota that does save for perhaps the LS.
That claim was bunk. You put your average Toyota into reverse, and it will go into reverse; do it at 100 mph and at best you'll stall the engine and at worse grenade the transaxle.
Most cars, while having a direct link between the shifter and the transmission, still have ways to prevent the car from engaging reverse gear while the car is moving forward at speed.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 01:30:45 PM
The ES uses the Camry drive train, and the Camry uses good ole fashioned mechanical shift linkage. Put an ES in reverse, and it will go into reverse.
The claim that the owner put the ES into reverse and the car kept accelerating is impossible (and illustrative of what Toyota is facing).
Stupid question (I've always owned manual transmission cars), but what happens when you shift to reverse with an automatic equipped with a mechanical shift linkage? I would have to believe there's some sort of failsafe to prevent damage if the car is in motion.
Edit: Nevermind, question answered.
The following may throw a little light onthis subject. From: http://autos.aol.com/article/reverse-transmission
Remember, with an automatic the gear selector is telling something hydraulic what you want to do there is no direct linkage fromt he shift lever to the gears themselves. Shift by wire tells the hydraulics what to do via an electric wire. Older systems do it via mechanical linkage.
Will It Ruin My Car?
Transmissions are not meant to engage reverse while traveling forward. Oh sure, you can jam it in at the bottom of your driveway apron while you're still rolling a little, but even that's not the best of practices.
"The safest bet is to just not do it," said Craig Renneker, Ford's Chief Engineer for transmission programs. As a way of protecting us from ourselves, automakers design a function called Reverse Inhibit into transmissions to prevent inadvertent selection of reverse. "Putting it into reverse [in modern cars] when going forward has no action at all, the car just ignores the request until you get down to a proper speed," said Renneker, using Ford's six-speed automatics as an example; "It'll just say 'hey, I know you want reverse pal, but I'm just not going to give it to you until the appropriate time.'"
Manual transmissions have physical locks in the shift mechanism to make selecting reverse an active exercise. Barring lockout rings or pushing down on the stick shift, deliberately trying to select reverse while driving forward at normal speeds is basically impossible with a manual. "The main problem you're going to be fighting is what you're trying to get the thing to do is something it really does not want to do," Renneker continued. The gearset would likely growl at you if you tried, and if the protest of the machinery doesn't instantly deter you, it could be injurious to your transmission. Ford's Trans guru elaborated that the synchronizer mechanism in manuals is only designed to change the speed of transmission internals enough for smooth engagement. Attempting reverse at road speed would force the synchros to try matching shaft speeds, building up lots of heat and potentially causing damage. "It won't be effective, it won't do anything for you, and secondly, you're going to be putting a lot of extra stress on that synchronizer," he told AOL Autos. In other words, it's best not to try it.
Older Cars? Well That's A Different Story
Modern electronics systems in automobiles tie all the systems together, so the right hand always knows what the left hand is doing. This modern architecture in systems like Control Area Networks is what enables the vehicle's electronically controlled automatic transmission to ignore a request from a driver for something that may cause damage, or worse, injury. Older, less-sophisticated cars may not have the reverse-inhibit function, though Renneker explained that there were hydraulic reverse inhibit systems in the past. The march of technology has made it easier and less expensive to design a car that protects itself.
When your transmission doesn't know any better, selecting reverse during forward driving is still less exciting than you might imagine.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 12:55:38 PM
I'll try to not derail this thread, but this again demonstrates what a disaster it is for government to be involved in regulating business. For example, the ridiculous "so you're going to use electronics to fix electronics?" quip. Ugh. Complete ignorance this kangaroo court. They do not understand technical issues. They do not understand statistical issues. They only understand trying to get re-elected.
Good point. Electronic logic can be used to prevent this sort of thing from occurring. One such example is the Infiniti G37 which C/D tested alongside the Camry and Roush Mustang in their test of vehicles with simultaneous WOT and brake application. The Infiniti disables throttle control when it detects this, so the stopping distance was the same no matter what you did with the throttle. This is a matter of simple electrical logic which is proven to work.
Good post John.
Quote from: 565 on February 25, 2010, 09:12:16 AM
Honestly Toyota is getting crap because they have been making a public effort to look like they are fixing the problem, when no one even knows what the problem is. All the vulture lawmakers have descented on the issue because it distracts the public away from the shitty job they are doing themselves. The economy is in tatters, unemployment is ridiculously high. the domestic automakers have basically facepalmed, and 2 of the Big 3 have pretty much imploded. Those real problems are all hard to fix. What's easy is to target some elusive acceleration problem and act like they can do anything about it, which is why lawmakers are basically wasting their time with this. Honestly as fun as insulting some Japanese guy who barely speaks English is, do they think they can actually change anything with some sort of hearing? Do they think Toyota knows what's going on this whole time, and have been secretly holding out for kicks?
Honestly has ANYONE, ANYONE, including all those law makers, critics, safety organizations, owners managed to actually reliability recreate the phenomenon? I'm not talking about rewiring the car in what you think might be the problem. But to actually isolate a problematic car and reproduce the problem and inspect that car?
When you take your car to the dealer for a problem, the first thing they do is to ask you to recreate the problem. Unless you can recreate the problem, they won't know what to fix. It's not about being cheap or saving money, it's about simple logistics. How are you going to fix a problem, if you haven't seen the problem. They aren't psychics and they aren't gods, they can only fix a problem that's present and observable.
I don't think anyone out there has actually seen this thing recreated I don't think Toyota engineers have, I don't think the safety organizations have. We are just going on stories from a handful of frantic people. You cannot find an engineering fix from that.
And honestly how did they even get the number of 34 deaths caused by the problem? I mean how did they even confirm it, if they couldn't reproduce the problem after the crash? I think those were complied by compliants. Hell anyone could compile a compliant. If someone I knew crashed their Camry, I could say, wow Kim isn't the type to crash her car, she must have been a victim of this accelerator thing. People ask why does this only happen with Toyota. It certainly doesn't. There are literally hundreds of accounts of unaccounted acceleration from various makes. It actually even happened while I was in a car. It was a Mazda 626 my dad drove, and the car would not stop accelerating, he had to put it in neutral and turn it off. It never happened again.
This is not dissimilar to the situation a decade or so ago when manufacturers were building tall vehicles with a high centre of gravity that were prone to tipping when being driven in the fashion of family sedans; especially when the tires kept exploding due to being under-inflated and when the tread ripped off. This was happening to all manufacturers of these vehicles but, of course, as the Explorer was the most popular, and there were appreciably more of them on the road than most others put together, Explorers were under the spotlight for this situation. I would also add that, percentage wise - that is the number of roll-overs per total vehicles - other manufacturer's of SUVs, Toyota 4Runners for example, had a higher percentage of accidents per volume sold than the Explorer. That there was a higher risk of tipping with vehicles of this type was not in question; simply because of the higher centre of gravity. People seemed not to realize this risk, but you can't argue with physics. It was just too easy to blame the vehicle and the tires on it; especially that people were dying in them. It became a big safety issue. Lawyers were raking in fortunes.
This, imo, is what is happening now with Toyota. They have more cars on the road that are prone to a very rare electronic malfunction and people are being killed. If you check the NHTSA database, you'll find that similar situations have been reported on the vehicles of other manufacturers; just not as many. I don't really know whether they've been responsible for any deaths though. However, Toyota is now in the spotlight, just as Ford was 10 years ago; Congressional Hearings and all. As I've mentioned, imo there is very likely a real problem that occurs under exceptional circumstances because the electronics have become too complex and cannot be made 100% reliable. Toyota, by omission, admits as much. No doubt lawyers are already preparing cases and are getting ready to roll. They've likely analysed every word that was/is being said at the hearing and will use it as ammunition in the trials. It will be long and painful for Toyota and they know it; as do the other manufacturers who are, no doubt, taking great pains to make sure it will not happen to as many of their vehicles.
Quote from: MX793 on February 23, 2010, 04:42:47 PM
I've had cable throttles stick wide open on motorbikes.
You can just do a stoppie then. Can't do that in a car. :lol:
Quote from: The Pirate on February 25, 2010, 01:49:44 PM
Stupid question (I've always owned manual transmission cars), but what happens when you shift to reverse with an automatic equipped with a mechanical shift linkage? I would have to believe there's some sort of failsafe to prevent damage if the car is in motion.
Edit: Nevermind, question answered.
Well, I've shifted an A/T car into reverse while going forward. At best the engine stalls as shifting into reverse will try to spin the engine backwards. Once the engine stalls the A/T pump stops spinning, pressure is lost and so is the coupling between engine and transmission, and the car coasts to stop.
Quote from: R-inge on February 25, 2010, 01:50:26 PM
Good point. Electronic logic can be used to prevent this sort of thing from occurring. One such example is the Infiniti G37 which C/D tested alongside the Camry and Roush Mustang in their test of vehicles with simultaneous WOT and brake application. The Infiniti disables throttle control when it detects this, so the stopping distance was the same no matter what you did with the throttle. This is a matter of simple electrical logic which is proven to work.
Electronic control is greatly advantageous in many respects. However, it must have 100% reliability in order to avoid the circumstances now being addressed by your congress (and I realize that it is 98% grandstanding). Personally, I have no problem operating a vehicle with all the electronic bells and whistles but I still acknowledge that there is an infinitesimal possibility that something may go wrong.
Can you rule out electronic malfunction?
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 25, 2010, 01:50:19 PM
The following may throw a little light onthis subject. From: http://autos.aol.com/article/reverse-transmission
>>>
Good information.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 11:08:35 AM
Drive By Wire :huh:.
I thought drive by wire was mostly just throttle and brake. I didn't assume it included "change gears by wire." :huh: :lol:
I heard a "DID YOU GET INJURED IN AN ACCIDENT WITH A TOYOTA DUE TO SUDDEN ACCELERATION? CALL xxxxxxx" commercial last night.
They put it in big capital letters on the screen and kept repeating the same crap over and over again, in just 30seconds..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 25, 2010, 03:00:19 PM
I heard a "DID YOU GET INJURED IN AN ACCIDENT WITH A TOYOTA DUE TO SUDDEN ACCELERATION? CALL xxxxxxx" commercial last night.
They put it in big capital letters on the screen and kept repeating the same crap over and over again, in just 30seconds..
Toyota better buckle up and get their lawyers ready.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 02:46:10 PM
Electronic control is greatly advantageous in many respects. However, it must have 100% reliability in order to avoid the circumstances now being addressed by your congress (and I realize that it is 98% grandstanding). Personally, I have no problem operating a vehicle with all the electronic bells and whistles but I still acknowledge that there is an infinitesimal possibility that something may go wrong.
Can you rule out electronic malfunction?
If there were a basic logic which created the condition that whenever the brakes are applied, the PCM must command the throttle angle to 10% or whatever idle speed requires, and if there were another logic which states that the PCM must receive signals from the brake pedal, and if it does not a MIL is lit informing the driver of an error, I don't see how that would not prevent 99.99% of all situations where a car could take off out of control and not be promptly stopped by the operator by simply applying the brakes. Electronics require electronic countermeasures. I can't think of a single mechanical countermeasure which would apply here other than the return spring already installed in the accelerator pedal. One could also argue that a full redesign of the pedal would be a good mechanical countermeasure I suppose.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Toyota better buckle up and get their lawyers ready.
I need to borrow a Toyota from somewhere and suddenly accelerate into something. But what?
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 25, 2010, 02:56:28 PM
I thought drive by wire was mostly just throttle and brake. I didn't assume it included "change gears by wire." :huh: :lol:
Shift-by-wire in not a new concept. Even the 58 Edsel "teletouch" system was a shift-by-wire system of sorts; although Ford abandoned the concept after 1 year.
As described in the information posted by John, even when the shifter to transmission linkage is mechanical, decisions are made in the transmission which determine whether or not the transmission will engage reverse. I think that's what it said.
Quote from: R-inge on February 25, 2010, 03:02:14 PM
If there were a basic logic which created the condition that whenever the brakes are applied, the PCM must command the throttle angle to 10% or whatever idle speed requires, and if there were another logic which states that the PCM must receive signals from the brake pedal, and if it does not a MIL is lit informing the driver of an error, I don't see how that would not prevent 99.99% of all situations where a car could take off out of control and not be promptly stopped by the operator by simply applying the brakes. Electronics require electronic countermeasures. I can't think of a single mechanical countermeasure which would apply here other than the return spring already installed in the accelerator pedal. One could also argue that a full redesign of the pedal would be a good mechanical countermeasure I suppose.
That is true imo but the 99.99% suggest that there is a possibility of an electronic malfunction on the 10,000th time. This, likely, is what is occurring. As mentioned, we don't expect our computers to perform perfectly 100% of the time and they are not subject to the same environmental variations as the ECM on cars.
ZF has used shift by wire since the 2001 BMW 7 series. The VW DSG is shift by wire. I find it very hard to believe that Toyota (Aisin) is one decade behind the competition.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 25, 2010, 03:17:40 PM
Shift-by-wire in not a new concept. Even the 58 Edsel "teletouch" system was a shift-by-wire system of sorts; although Ford abandoned the concept after 1 year.
As described in the information posted by John, even when the shifter to transmission linkage is mechanical, decisions are made in the transmission which determine whether or not the transmission will engage reverse. I think that's what it said.
True, but you can still shift to neutral when it's a mechanical linkage in these cases even if not reverse since there's typically a lockout to prevent this from happening.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 25, 2010, 04:17:04 PM
ZF has used shift by wire since the 2001 BMW 7 series. The VW DSG is shift by wire. I find it very hard to believe that Toyota (Asin) is one decade behind the competition.
Depends on how you define shift by wire I suppose. But since these are mainly basic cars and not high end, I don't expect them to utilitize such technology until it's been tested and proven in luxury markets. I guess you can consider shifting from 1-whatever gear to be shift by wire with the little paddles but everything else would still be mechanical linkage with these basic cars.
And the shifter thing on the 7 series was annoying as hell to me.
The Prius/HS250h is shift-by-wire.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 12:59:15 PM
Camrys and Corollas don't use shift-by-wire, and I'd be hard-pressed to even think of a Toyota that does save for perhaps the LS.
That claim was bunk. You put your average Toyota into reverse, and it will go into reverse; do it at 100 mph and at best you'll stall the engine and at worse grenade the transaxle.
Actually, many modern automatics block out reverse (and park) when the car is moving forward at any appreciable speed. If you try to shift into reverse while traveling more than a few MPH, it simply goes into neutral.
Quote from: MX793 on February 25, 2010, 05:35:46 PM
Actually, many modern automatics block out reverse (and park) when the car is moving forward at any appreciable speed. If you try to shift into reverse while traveling more than a few MPH, it simply goes into neutral.
LOL no. That is laughable. If you put a car in reverse, it will start going backwards, and that is the end of the story. Barring any sort of morally bankrupt transmission that attempts to override the user's inputs for the furthering of pervasive statism, when you put a car in reverse, it reverses.
:lol:
Like I said, I've shifted cars into reverse while they were moving forward. Not necessarily yesterday, but I have done it.
EDIT: granted those were not new cars.
Using anecdotes from this thread, my experience and insight into the mind of Everyman, and various (non) data, my judgment is thus rendered:
Toyota is not at fault, or to any more of a degree than any other automaker, of such "unintended acceleration" issues. The claims are infinitely suspect and the data abjectly absent. So let it be recorded. This is a witch hunt.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 06:11:24 PM
Using anecdotes from this thread, my experience and insight into the mind of Everyman, and various (non) data, my judgment is thus rendered:
Toyota is not at fault, or to any more of a degree than any other automaker, of such "unintended acceleration" issues. The claims are infinitely suspect and the data abjectly absent. So let it be recorded. This is a witch hunt.
Reported.
Your and retard.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 06:11:24 PM
Using anecdotes from this thread, my experience and insight into the mind of Everyman, and various (non) data, my judgment is thus rendered:
Toyota is not at fault, or to any more of a degree than any other automaker, of such "unintended acceleration" issues. The claims are infinitely suspect and the data abjectly absent. So let it be recorded. This is a witch hunt.
:facepalm:
Dude, they fudged up - badly.
Being anything but Toyota fanboys or apologists, C&D has an excellent editorial:
Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers. We dive into Toyota?s three-ring circus and emerge with the facts. (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial)
Summary:
Even if you buy our argument that most of the "unintended acceleration" issues are actually driver error and the company ultimately is vindicated, Toyota is still screwed. Audi sales were depressed for a decade and a half after the false claims leveled against it. Toyota either blames its customers and faces the wrath of the media or expresses contrition and admits it has quality issues. Perhaps having learned from the backlash against Audi when it?rightly?blamed its customers, Toyota has chosen the latter course of action.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 06:07:41 PM
Like I said, I've shifted cars into reverse while they were moving forward. Not necessarily yesterday, but I have done it.
EDIT: granted those were not new cars.
I've done it once (accidentally) in a late 80s pickup, but I was only going maybe 15 mph. Locked up the rear tires and started to fishtail before I quickly stuffed it into neutral.
Mythbusters did a test to see if slamming a car in reverse at speed will help you stop faster. I can't remember the car they used, but when they tried to drop it into reverse at 50+ mph, it wouldn't go into reverse. I don't remember exactly what they were using, but it wasn't super new, but I'm pretty sure it was no more than 15 years old. They did some further research and learned that the car they had, as well as many vehicles on the market, lock out reverse above a certain speed.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 06:11:24 PM
Using anecdotes from this thread, my experience and insight into the mind of Everyman, and various (non) data, my judgment is thus rendered:
Toyota is not at fault, or to any more of a degree than any other automaker, of such "unintended acceleration" issues. The claims are infinitely suspect and the data abjectly absent. So let it be recorded. This is a witch hunt.
I'll sleep better tonight knowing this.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 06:43:48 PM
Being anything but Toyota fanboys or apologists, C&D has an excellent editorial:
Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers. We dive into Toyota’s three-ring circus and emerge with the facts. (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial)
I don't buy into C&D's flippant attitude in the article. The most publicized incident (the first I knew of) involved an off-duty police officer (surely a stupid driver with very little to no time behind the wheel) who slammed into the back of an Explorer at over 100mph. The 911 call made from the car lasted 49 seconds. The idiot complained of 'no brakes' during the call. He was probably biased against Toyota though.
Toyota's quality issues were already being pointed out prior to these recalls, in CR surveys from what I understand. I don't think Toyota has to worry about an Audi-like collapse. Audi never had the deep reserves of customer support and rep for quality that Toyota has in North America.
Quote from: MX793 on February 25, 2010, 07:26:54 PM
I've done it once (accidentally) in a late 80s pickup, but I was only going maybe 15 mph. Locked up the rear tires and started to fishtail before I quickly stuffed it into neutral.
Mythbusters did a test to see if slamming a car in reverse at speed will help you stop faster. I can't remember the car they used, but when they tried to drop it into reverse at 50+ mph, it wouldn't go into reverse. I don't remember exactly what they were using, but it wasn't super new, but I'm pretty sure it was no more than 15 years old. They did some further research and learned that the car they had, as well as many vehicles on the market, lock out reverse above a certain speed.
Okay, makes sense.
Quote from: Jon? on February 25, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
I'll sleep better tonight knowing this.
That was my goal. Things were getting a bit chaotic and thus I felt a measure of calm yet assertive stability was in order.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 25, 2010, 08:15:50 PM
That was my goal. Things were getting a bit chaotic and thus I felt a measure of calm yet assertive stability was in order.
Like Al Haig! (RIP)
My SVT suddenly accelerated tonight unintentionally...so I took my foot off the gas and I slowed down. Whew! That was close.
Today the Audi had a case of unintended acceleration (lolz).
bewst ftw
Smoeone mentioned this earlier but it really hit me today on the way into work.
I rarely see a Toyota accelerating much, intended or not. They just tend to crawl along, oblivious to the traffic around them, trailed by a gaggle of frustrated commuters.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on February 26, 2010, 07:03:46 AM
Smoeone mentioned this earlier but it really hit me today on the way into work.
I rarely see a Toyota accelerating much, intended or not. They just tend to crawl along, oblivious to the traffic around them, trailed by a gaggle of frustrated commuters.
Maybe Toyota was trying to do us a favor?
Well, yeah. It probably takes 14 years for a Prius to get anywhere near these HOLY SHIT TOP SPEED 100+ MPH paces that these people are crashing at.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 26, 2010, 09:51:03 AM
Well, yeah. It probably takes 14 years for a Prius to get anywhere near these HOLY SHIT TOP SPEED 100+ MPH paces that these people are crashing at.
One will, eventually, hit triple digits though :lol:
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 26, 2010, 09:51:03 AM
Well, yeah. It probably takes 14 years for a Prius to get anywhere near these HOLY SHIT TOP SPEED 100+ MPH paces that these people are crashing at.
In the same vain, I occasionally see a Prius or another hybrid speeding on the highway trying to pass me. At that moment I feel trapped in some aura of impotence that shrinks my ball size at the sight of a hybrid passing me. I have no course of action, but to speed past it, otherwise, I risk permanent testicular degeneration.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on February 26, 2010, 11:12:41 AM
In the same vain, I occasionally see a Prius or another hybrid speeding on the highway trying to pass me. At that moment I feel trapped in some aura of impotence that shrinks my ball size at the sight of a hybrid passing me. I have no course of action, but to speed past it, otherwise, I risk permanent testicular degeneration.
I've been passed by Priuses before. Never much bothered me, but then again, I'm a lot older than you. I felt that way when I was a teenager. Nowadays, I just want to move at the speed at which I want to move, usually mid 70s to mid 80s. If you want to go faster, be my guest. I love when people drive faster than I am; a cop'll see them first.
YES!
I'm usually pretty chill when it comes to my speed, unless I'm driving my Camaro (or The Road once it is finished)
Quote from: Raza on February 26, 2010, 02:25:05 PM
I love when people drive faster than I am; a cop'll see them first.
+1
Quote from: R-inge on February 25, 2010, 01:50:26 PM
Good point. Electronic logic can be used to prevent this sort of thing from occurring. One such example is the Infiniti G37 which C/D tested alongside the Camry and Roush Mustang in their test of vehicles with simultaneous WOT and brake application. The Infiniti disables throttle control when it detects this, so the stopping distance was the same no matter what you did with the throttle. This is a matter of simple electrical logic which is proven to work.
This is the thread right here, most other manufacturers have drive-by-wire systems that close the throttle plate when the brakes are applied.
Toyota failed to do this because of either bad/lazy engineering, bean counter cheaping out or some combination of both.
In the end this is what is killing them, there would be no acceleration problems if they had just added this simple logic to the system. Toyota didn't and now they pay the price for a subpar system that even chrysler can get right, end of story.
Quote from: SVT32V on February 27, 2010, 03:06:40 PM
This is the thread right here, most other manufacturers have drive-by-wire systems that close the throttle plate when the brakes are applied.
Toyota failed to do this because of either bad/lazy engineering, bean counter cheaping out or some combination of both.
In the end this is what is killing them, there would be no acceleration problems if they had just added this simple logic to the system. Toyota didn't and now they pay the price for a subpar system that even chrysler can get right, end of story.
Guess Ford also has "lazy/bad engineering" and otherwise didn't get it "right" either, at least not in the Mustang - it doesn't cut throttle if brakes are applied. (see C&D's brake test story (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)). But then again I wouldn't be surprised if Ford is still using archaic throttle cable assembly, especially in the Mustang.
Further evidence is provided that the stories are highly likely bogus in that at full throttle Camry brakes will bring the car to a stand still lickety split (which actually surprised me). Comedically enough per this test WOT braking performance of the V6 Camry from 70 mph was 1 foot
SHORTER than the Taurus
with no throttle.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2010, 04:37:58 AM
Guess Ford also has "lazy/bad engineering" and otherwise didn't get it "right" either, at least not in the Mustang - it doesn't cut throttle if brakes are applied. (see C&D's brake test story (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)). But then again I wouldn't be surprised if Ford is still using archaic throttle cable assembly, especially in the Mustang.
Further evidence is provided that the stories are highly likely bogus in that at full throttle Camry brakes will bring the car to a stand still lickety split (which actually surprised me). Comedically enough per this test WOT braking performance of the V6 Camry from 70 mph was 1 foot SHORTER than the Taurus with no throttle.
However, if you don't stand on the brakes instantly and don't let up until you've come to a stop, the car has a chance to accelerate further and the brakes will lose their effectiveness. As one track test put it, you have one chance to recognize what's going on and stop the car before you lose your brakes -- unless you put it in neutral, of course.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2010, 04:37:58 AM
Further evidence is provided that the stories are highly likely bogus in that at full throttle Camry brakes will bring the car to a stand still lickety split (which actually surprised me). Comedically enough per this test WOT braking performance of the V6 Camry from 70 mph was 1 foot SHORTER than the Taurus with no throttle.
Ifcar got it-
If a driver experiencing runaway pushes the brakes halfway, they'll brakefade them into complete ineffectiveness long before slowing down any.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2010, 04:37:58 AM
Guess Ford also has "lazy/bad engineering" and otherwise didn't get it "right" either, at least not in the Mustang - it doesn't cut throttle if brakes are applied. (see C&D's brake test story (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)). But then again I wouldn't be surprised if Ford is still using archaic throttle cable assembly, especially in the Mustang.
Further evidence is provided that the stories are highly likely bogus in that at full throttle Camry brakes will bring the car to a stand still lickety split (which actually surprised me). Comedically enough per this test WOT braking performance of the V6 Camry from 70 mph was 1 foot SHORTER than the Taurus with no throttle.
Using the left foot on the brakes while modulating the throttle to some degree with the right is a common racing technique. If you take your performance car to the track, it would kind of suck if the computer prevented you from doing this. May be why the Mustang doesn't have such a system.
Sure, brakes fade easily on most cars. The point is that it is relatively easy to brake a WOT car as noted from freeway speed. Also, the overwhelming majority of Camrys are not the heavier and more powerful V6 model, meaning you'd have a fair amount more braking reserve than the car tested.
Quote from: MX793 on February 28, 2010, 07:44:37 AM
Using the left foot on the brakes while modulating the throttle to some degree with the right is a common racing technique. If you take your performance car to the track, it would kind of suck if the computer prevented you from doing this. May be why the Mustang doesn't have such a system.
I was more or less digging on SVT32V; ragging on Toyota yet he didn't realize Ford doesn' t have the "logic" (i.e., WOT + brakes = cut engine power) either, at least not on the Mustang.
The tested G37, a moderate-performance car at least in the same league as the Mustang, has this logic. The article also states that both BMW and Porsche have this logic too, cars generally at or well above the Mustang's performance level.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=21387.msg1278938#msg1278938 date=1267219505
I've been passed by Priuses before. Never much bothered me, but then again, I'm a lot older than you. I felt that way when I was a teenager. Nowadays, I just want to move at the speed at which I want to move, usually mid 70s to mid 80s. If you want to go faster, be my guest. I love when people drive faster than I am; a cop'll see them first.
I call those people "decoys".
Quote from: Northlands on February 28, 2010, 11:33:16 AM
I call those people "decoys".
I like that. I think of them as camouflage, usually.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 28, 2010, 04:37:58 AM
Guess Ford also has "lazy/bad engineering" and otherwise didn't get it "right" either, at least not in the Mustang - it doesn't cut throttle if brakes are applied. (see C&D's brake test story (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)). But then again I wouldn't be surprised if Ford is still using archaic throttle cable assembly, especially in the Mustang.
Further evidence is provided that the stories are highly likely bogus in that at full throttle Camry brakes will bring the car to a stand still lickety split (which actually surprised me). Comedically enough per this test WOT braking performance of the V6 Camry from 70 mph was 1 foot SHORTER than the Taurus with no throttle.
I never said Ford had the brake over-ride, one can levy the same argument against Ford, I don't care, they should have it, lucky for them the rest of the system isn't malfunctioning.
Honda, Subaru etc. also don't have it.
During wide open throttle people may instinctively pump tyhe brake, at WOT there is no vacuum to assist braking. Without the assist it will be a good bit harder to stop the car, not sure the avg elderly, automotively challenged toyota driver would be able to muster such force.
Quote from: MX793 on February 28, 2010, 07:44:37 AM
Using the left foot on the brakes while modulating the throttle to some degree with the right is a common racing technique. If you take your performance car to the track, it would kind of suck if the computer prevented you from doing this. May be why the Mustang doesn't have such a system.
Kind of takes the heel-toe approach out of it. Of the recalled cars I can't think of one that should/could be driven in such a manner.
Quote from: SVT32V on February 28, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
I never said Ford had the brake over-ride, one can levy the same argument against Ford, I don't care, they should have it, lucky for them the rest of the system isn't malfunctioning.
Except it probably is malfunctioning on Fords as well, though to a lesser degree. After Toyota, Ford totals up the second largest amount of unintended acceleration complaints, 1133 to 387. Yes 387 is about 1/3 of the complaints from Toyota, but Nissan has 1/6 the complaints of Ford despite similar sales. Clearly something is going on with the Ford cars as well.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyota-leads-in-nhtsa-unintended-acceleration-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html
Feb 22 from Edmunds (the source of the data)
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html
The difference is that Toyota has taken steps to addressing its 1133 cases. Ford hasn't done anything to address its 387 complaints, except try to pretend nothing is wrong, and profit off Toyota's publicly addressing a problem it suffers from to some extent as well.
Actually the data is very interesting to look at because it gives data for each individual car. Also note that it is not normalized to car sales, but just total complaints, which is why it pretty much goes by sales numbers. One must also realize that for rare events, exposure is paramount. That means the more miles a car is driven, the more likely the event is to occur. I'm betting cars like the Toyota Camry get driven for a ton of miles, and there are alot of them, and they remain on the roads for a long time.
Just looking at the list the most dangerous cars are probably the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Mustang, they have less sales, are typically driven less miles and still rank rather high. Those cars definitely deserve some looking into.
EDIT:
Other studies put Ford even closer to Toyota in terms of complaints. Looking at just 2008 models Toyota racks up 52, compared to Ford's 36. And when you look at it per car, the chances are even closer, 1 in 50,000 compared to 1 in 65,000, for such rare events, essentially a wash.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua-analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
Here's some Ford F150 complaints.
?I entered the vehicle, started the engine, and put the vehicle in drive. The engine immediately increased in rpm to the point where the rear tires began spinning on the gravel. I put the transmission in Neutral and the engine rpm increased. I removed my foot from the brake and the engine continued at a very high rpm. I then depressed and released the accelerator and the engine returned to a normal idle.?
?...the truck spontaneously accelerated at full throttle with my foot firmly on the brake? I was advancing without applying the accelerator. With the brakes fully applied, I continued to advance into the parking lot and I immediately shifted into Park in attempt to stop the vehicle. The vehicle came to a stop and the engine was racing at full throttle in Park.?"
Additional EDIT:
Here's more data from Edmunds from Feb 26th that puts Ford extremely close to Toyota.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161806/article.html
Toyota 532, Ford 339.
Apparent this is the same data as before except it removes the 601 extra cases filed after Sept 29 2009, when Toyota widely publicized the issue.
"The analysis, which looked at 2005 to 2010 models, showed after the safety advisory was issued and received intense media attention, 601 unintended acceleration complaints were filed against Toyota Motor Corp. from October 1, 2009 to February 3, 2010. In the nearly five years prior to the advisory, Toyota had 532 such complaints. In total, Toyota's complaints exceeded the number filed against the rest of the Big Six automakers combined.
While a flurry of new complaints were filed since the safety advisory was issued, Toyota still had the highest number of unintended acceleration complaints of any of the Big Six before Sept. 30, 2009."
Seems like we should have a hearing for Ford as well.
:mask:
Toyota didn't doing anything until they absolutely had to.
Quote from: 565 on March 01, 2010, 12:43:55 PM
EDIT:
Other studies put Ford even closer to Toyota in terms of complaints. Looking at just 2008 models Toyota racks up 52, compared to Ford's 36. And when you look at it per car, the chances are even closer, 1 in 50,000 compared to 1 in 65,000, for such rare events, essentially a wash.
To put things in better perspective as to why nobody should have cared about this to begin with...
Cause of Death Lifetime Odds
Heart Disease 1-in-5
Cancer 1-in-7
Stroke 1-in-23
Accidental Injury 1-in-36
Motor Vehicle Accident* 1-in-100
Intentional Self-harm (suicide) 1-in-121
Falling Down 1-in-246
Assault by Firearm 1-in-325
Fire or Smoke 1-in-1,116
Natural Forces (heat, cold, storms, quakes, etc.) 1-in-3,357
Electrocution* 1-in-5,000
Drowning 1-in-8,942
Air Travel Accident* 1-in-20,000
Flood* (included also in Natural Forces above) 1-in-30,000
Legal Execution 1-in-58,618
Tornado* (included also in Natural Forces above) 1-in-60,000
Lightning Strike (included also in Natural Forces above) 1-in-83,930
Snake, Bee or other Venomous Bite or Sting* 1-in-100,000
Earthquake (included also in Natural Forces above) 1-in-131,890
Dog Attack 1-in-147,717
Asteroid Impact* 1-in-200,000**
Tsunami* 1-in-500,000
Fireworks Discharge 1-in-615,488
** Perhaps 1-in-500,000
so yea... i'm 2-3x more likely to die in a plane crash then have my Camry unintentionally accelerate. Quick, i demand all airlines have a congressional hearing about how unsafe their industry is!!!
Everyone is also about 300x more prone to being killed in a toyota camry accident then from it unintentionally accelerating...
Quote from: 565 on March 01, 2010, 12:43:55 PM
Except it probably is malfunctioning on Fords as well, though to a lesser degree. After Toyota, Ford totals up the second largest amount of unintended acceleration complaints, 1133 to 387. Yes 387 is about 1/3 of the complaints from Toyota, but Nissan has 1/6 the complaints of Ford despite similar sales. Clearly something is going on with the Ford cars as well.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyota-leads-in-nhtsa-unintended-acceleration-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html
Feb 22 from Edmunds (the source of the data)
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html
The difference is that Toyota has taken steps to addressing its 1133 cases. Ford hasn't done anything to address its 387 complaints, except try to pretend nothing is wrong, and profit off Toyota's publicly addressing a problem it suffers from to some extent as well.
Actually the data is very interesting to look at because it gives data for each individual car. Also note that it is not normalized to car sales, but just total complaints, which is why it pretty much goes by sales numbers. One must also realize that for rare events, exposure is paramount. That means the more miles a car is driven, the more likely the event is to occur. I'm betting cars like the Toyota Camry get driven for a ton of miles, and there are alot of them, and they remain on the roads for a long time.
Just looking at the list the most dangerous cars are probably the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Mustang, they have less sales, are typically driven less miles and still rank rather high. Those cars definitely deserve some looking into.
EDIT:
Other studies put Ford even closer to Toyota in terms of complaints. Looking at just 2008 models Toyota racks up 52, compared to Ford's 36. And when you look at it per car, the chances are even closer, 1 in 50,000 compared to 1 in 65,000, for such rare events, essentially a wash.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua-analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
Here's some Ford F150 complaints.
?I entered the vehicle, started the engine, and put the vehicle in drive. The engine immediately increased in rpm to the point where the rear tires began spinning on the gravel. I put the transmission in Neutral and the engine rpm increased. I removed my foot from the brake and the engine continued at a very high rpm. I then depressed and released the accelerator and the engine returned to a normal idle.?
?...the truck spontaneously accelerated at full throttle with my foot firmly on the brake? I was advancing without applying the accelerator. With the brakes fully applied, I continued to advance into the parking lot and I immediately shifted into Park in attempt to stop the vehicle. The vehicle came to a stop and the engine was racing at full throttle in Park.?"
Additional EDIT:
Here's more data from Edmunds from Feb 26th that puts Ford extremely close to Toyota.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161806/article.html
Toyota 532, Ford 339.
Apparent this is the same data as before except it removes the 601 extra cases filed after Sept 29 2009, when Toyota widely publicized the issue.
"The analysis, which looked at 2005 to 2010 models, showed after the safety advisory was issued and received intense media attention, 601 unintended acceleration complaints were filed against Toyota Motor Corp. from October 1, 2009 to February 3, 2010. In the nearly five years prior to the advisory, Toyota had 532 such complaints. In total, Toyota's complaints exceeded the number filed against the rest of the Big Six automakers combined.
While a flurry of new complaints were filed since the safety advisory was issued, Toyota still had the highest number of unintended acceleration complaints of any of the Big Six before Sept. 30, 2009."
Seems like we should have a hearing for Ford as well.
As I had previously mentioned, it's the same scenario as the SUV rollover situation a dozen or so years ago. It was happening to all manufacturer's SUVs but because the Explorer had the greatest volume on the road, it happened more often to them even though, percentage of volume wise, it was happening to a higher percentage of other models; including the 4Runner.
Whoever has the highest volume of problems gets to be in the spotlight. This time it's Toyota's turn.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2010, 06:11:46 PM
As I had previously mentioned, it's the same scenario as the SUV rollover situation a dozen or so years ago. It was happening to all manufacturer's SUVs but because the Explorer had the greatest volume on the road, it happened more often to them even though, percentage of volume wise, it was happening to a higher percentage of other models; including the 4Runner.
Whoever has the highest volume of problems gets to be in the spotlight. This time it's Toyota's turn.
I saw the number presented as a percentage and Toyota is still well above the other major brands. Incidence rates for Ford were something like 3.15 out of every 100,000 vehicles versus 4.81 for Toyota (and all other brands were under 2, GM was under 1).
You guys are presuming all complaints have equal merit. They really don't.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 01, 2010, 06:19:21 PM
You guys are presuming all complaints have equal merit. They really don't.
That's true. WOT at 100mph with the brakes burnt out is not the same as a 1 second surge.
Quote from: MX793 on March 01, 2010, 06:15:48 PM
I saw the number presented as a percentage and Toyota is still well above the other major brands. Incidence rates for Ford were something like 3.15 out of every 100,000 vehicles versus 4.81 for Toyota (and all other brands were under 2, GM was under 1).
somehow, i believe a statistical analysis would not show any significant difference between any of them
EDIT-> Actually I just ran the numbers and there is no significant difference within a 95% confidence level between Toyota or and other manufacturer
More fun:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35660088/ns/business-the_new_york_times
"Of the 12,700 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration consumer complaints analyzed by The Times, the Ford Motor Company had the most, about 3,500.
Toyota ranked second, with about 3,000 complaints, but those were linked to far more accidents ? 1,000 ? compared to 450 crashes for Ford"
"All told, from 2000 through 2009, Toyota had one speed-control crash complaint per 20,454 vehicles sold in the United States. Ford had one complaint per 64,679 vehicles. Honda had one per 70,112 and G.M. one per 179,821."
GM - the pride is back baby! :ohyeah:
Quote from: Jon? on March 02, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
More fun:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35660088/ns/business-the_new_york_times
When it rains it pours.
I'm revving up my LOL machine for when "complaints" surface of non drive-by-wire vehicles. Back to floor mats I guess.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 02, 2010, 10:43:22 AM
I'm revving up my LOL machine for when "complaints" surface of non drive-by-wire vehicles. Back to floor mats I guess.
Well, my Jaguar's throttle sticks when the motor mounts deteriorate and collapse. The linkage for the front carb can get stcuk on a frame rail.
So laugh away. :rolleyes:
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 02, 2010, 10:59:22 AM
Well, my Jaguar's throttle sticks when the motor mounts deteriorate and collapse. The linkage for the front carb can get stcuk on a frame rail.
So laugh away. :rolleyes:
You're biased against Jaguar and your complaint has no merit.
(http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/pix07/claim-denied.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on March 02, 2010, 10:43:22 AM
I'm revving up my LOL machine for when "complaints" surface of non drive-by-wire vehicles. Back to floor mats I guess.
Already have surfaced. I heard a story of a guy convicted of vehicular manslaughter appealing his conviction because his testimony claimed he had both feet firmly planted on the brake pedal while his mid-'90s (cable-actuated throttle) Toyota accelerated into someone uncontrollably.
Yeah, it can happen. In fact I'd bet that throttle sticking is far more common on cable operated throttles than it is with electronic throttles.
Consider this: instead of just the throttle position sensor and throttle plate (which can bind on carbon buildup) you also now have a cable inside of a sheath, which may or may not deteriorate to the point that it doesn't slide smoothly inside of the housing.
Jon's? To Do List:
1) Buy Toyota
2) Visit my enemies
Quote from: Jon? on March 02, 2010, 11:08:08 AM
Jon's? To Do List:
1) Buy Toyota
2) Visit my enemies
:lol:
FWIW, if I were in the market for a new car I'd go visit Toyota after the dust has settled on this whole fiasco.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 02, 2010, 10:59:22 AM
Well, my Jaguar's throttle sticks when the motor mounts deteriorate and collapse. The linkage for the front carb can get stcuk on a frame rail.
So laugh away. :rolleyes:
The operative point being people have been blaming their cars for accidents since cars were invented:
Quote from: 93JC on March 02, 2010, 11:05:00 AM
Already have surfaced. I heard a story of a guy convicted of vehicular manslaughter appealing his conviction because his testimony claimed he had both feet firmly planted on the brake pedal while his mid-'90s (cable-actuated throttle) Toyota accelerated into someone uncontrollably.
As of now it remains a few hundred complaints over millions of vehicles sold; complaints that have had zero review, confirmation or proof. Like any reasonable person when I see proof I'll be open to changing my tune but the "instances" have been so fleeting, so unconfirmed, and so unproven, I don't expect proof will come.
Quote from: R-inge on March 02, 2010, 11:11:09 AM
:lol:
FWIW, if I were in the market for a new car I'd go visit Toyota after the dust has settled on this whole fiasco.
Should be some real good deals out there; especially on ES 350s ;).
Quote from: R-inge on March 02, 2010, 11:06:53 AM
Yeah, it can happen. In fact I'd bet that throttle sticking is far more common on cable operated throttles than it is with electronic throttles.
Consider this: instead of just the throttle position sensor and throttle plate (which can bind on carbon buildup) you also now have a cable inside of a sheath, which may or may not deteriorate to the point that it doesn't slide smoothly inside of the housing.
...your being far too logical to live in this country....
Speaking of overall quality control and how fucking hilarious it is for GM to act self-righteous about this topic, I currently have a GMC Terrain in my bay, a 2010, with three separate lines for recalls. For the love of Oprah... :facepalm:
Quote from: R-inge on March 02, 2010, 01:02:26 PM
Speaking of overall quality control and how fucking hilarious it is for GM to act self-righteous about this topic, I currently have a GMC Terrain in my bay, a 2010, with three separate lines for recalls. For the love of Oprah... :facepalm:
:( I liked the look of that car. Make sure you get all them there recalls done up good. I don't want any troubles when I buy a used one in 2015.
The quality of GM products is still so questionable IMO that I would never consider owning one. Maybe I'm just jaded because I have to repair the damn things, but it's really beyond the pale IMO that they can't get this shit right. One recall is for the rear defrosters not working. Granted, not a huge problem. The other is for the power steering line rusting. Sort of a bigger deal; loss of power steering is bad juju. The other is just some chickenshit thing about evaporative emissions, but still.
Quote from: R-inge on March 02, 2010, 11:06:53 AM
Yeah, it can happen. In fact I'd bet that throttle sticking is far more common on cable operated throttles than it is with electronic throttles.
Consider this: instead of just the throttle position sensor and throttle plate (which can bind on carbon buildup) you also now have a cable inside of a sheath, which may or may not deteriorate to the point that it doesn't slide smoothly inside of the housing.
I had a parking brake cable totally rusted and giving me brake problems on one of my vans..
Quote from: R-inge on March 02, 2010, 01:28:38 PM
The quality of GM products is still so questionable IMO that I would never consider owning one. Maybe I'm just jaded because I have to repair the damn things, but it's really beyond the pale IMO that they can't get this shit right. One recall is for the rear defrosters not working. Granted, not a huge problem. The other is for the power steering line rusting. Sort of a bigger deal; loss of power steering is bad juju. The other is just some chickenshit thing about evaporative emissions, but still.
Ah so. My experience of GM is limited to my Caddy and thus far *knock wood* it has been problem free.
So my non-scientific poll of one leads me to believe that GM cars never have issues and those who do are biased against GM or simply not as good at driving as me. :ohyeah:
There ya go.
Quote from: MX793 on February 28, 2010, 07:44:37 AM
Using the left foot on the brakes while modulating the throttle to some degree with the right is a common racing technique. If you take your performance car to the track, it would kind of suck if the computer prevented you from doing this. May be why the Mustang doesn't have such a system.
Most experienced racers will also tap the brakes down a long straight to check if the system has pressure and to get the pads up against the rotors so they are available immediately when they hit the hard braking zone at the end of the straight
Perception is everything.
Poll Says 31% of Americans Believe Toyotas Unsafe
Published: Tuesday, 2 Mar 2010 | 9:43 AM ET Text Size By: Reuters
Thirty-one percent of Americans now think Toyota and Lexus vehicles are not safe to ride, while 55 percent say the carmaker dragged its feet in responding to potential safety defects, according to a poll published Tuesday.
The USA Today/Gallup survey of 2,021 adults showed fewer doubts among current Toyota owners, with only 14 percent saying the cars are unsafe. A large majority of owners ?74 percent ? say they have not lost confidence in the vehicles.
Pollsters said findings also suggest enduring loyalty to Toyota vehicles among prospective U.S. car buyers generally.
While 17 percent of prospective buyers said they would no longer consider a Toyota vehicle, 53 percent said they would.
The poll, conducted Feb. 27-28, has a 3 percentage point margin of error.
Toyota [TOYOF 37.75 --- UNCH (0) ] has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles globally due to uncontrolled acceleration and braking glitches that have hurt its reputation for quality and shone a spotlight on vehicle safety issues.
The company is facing a slide in U.S. sales after recalling more than 6 million vehicles in that market alone.
RELATED LINKS
Current DateTime: 06:14:42 03 Mar 2010
LinksList Documentid: 35661561
Toyota Details Quality Control Changes in US HearingsToyota's Chief in China on Damage Control MissionToyota Pledges to Take Safety 'To the Next Level'Behind the Wheel with Phil LeBeau
Tuesday's poll was released ahead of a U.S. Senate Commerce Committee hearing at which Toyota Motor North America President Yoshimi Inaba was expected to discuss new quality changes that give safety a sharper focus in vehicle design.
Gallup said U.S. consumer loyalty may be due in part to the fact that relatively few Toyota owners claim to be affected by the recalls. Just 14 percent said their vehicle appeared on the recall list for gas pedal problems, while 70 percent said their car was not on the list.
The U.S. government got slightly higher marks for its response to safety problems than the company did.
While 55 percent of those surveyed said Toyota did not move quickly enough, 42 percent said the federal government's response was slow while 37 percent said the government response was about right.
Report: Toyota owners experience unintended acceleration after recall fix
03/03/2010, 12:13 PM
BY MARK KLEIS
According to new complaints filed with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, some Toyota owners have experienced what they believe to be sudden and unintended acceleration problems, even after having their vehicles serviced for the recent recalls. Toyota is currently recalling 5.4 million vehicles due to possible floor mat entrapment, and an additional 4.1 million vehicles with accelerator pedals that can stick.
These allegations, which have not yet been confirmed by NHTSA, would indicate that there may be a source of unintended acceleration outside of the vehicles? pedals and floor mats. So far, there have been seven documented complaints within the last two weeks that allege a post-fix unintended acceleration event has taken place, according to the LA Times.
One report involves a 2010 Camry that was serviced according to the recent recalls on February 12. The driver reported that five days after having the recall work performed, her vehicle accelerated up a snowbank.
?Had the incident happened one minute earlier, I would have been in a high car/pedestrian area and would not have been able to avoid an accident,? the unnamed consumer wrote. ?The fix done by Toyota is not the fix for the acceleration problem.?
But some analysts worry that the recent media attention on Toyota Motor Company has instilled the idea that unintended acceleration is more common than it really is, causing drivers to be constantly weary of the possibility and even potentially jumping to false conclusions. For instance, some vehicles have displayed check engine warning lights on the dashboard after having their vehicles serviced for the recall ? which may or may not be related to the repairs at the dealership.
?There is already doubt out there that the solutions Toyota has put forward really fix the problem of unintended acceleration,? said Aaron Bragman, auto industry analyst at IHS Global Insight, to the LA Times.
Bragman went on to caution that all complaints should be investigated before conclusions are drawn.
The increased attention to Toyota vehicle problems has also brought with it a skyrocketing of complaints to NHTSA since January. NHTSA says it has also increased the number of fatalities associated with unintended acceleration to 52 ? up from 34.
Toyota addresses the complaints
According to Toyota spokeswoman, Celeste Migliore, Toyota was not aware of any complaints filed by Toyota owners with NHTSA following service for the two pending recalls. ?We very much would like to have any of those individuals who claim they?ve had unintended acceleration after the fix to go back to the dealership. If there was an accident, we want to see the vehicle and the driver and the accident report,? Miligore said to the LA Times.
The recent complaints alleging unintended acceleration after being serviced for the recalls pertain to the Avalon, Camry and Matrix ? models set to be given brake override software as part of the recall. Toyota has also announced that it will expand the vehicles for the override upgrade to include the Tacoma, Sequoia and Venza.
This made me literally LOL. DUH! There is no manufacturer fix for stupid drivers:
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2010, 02:33:50 PM
These allegations, which have not yet been confirmed by NHTSA, would indicate that there may be a source of unintended acceleration outside of the vehicles? pedals and floor mats. So far, there have been seven documented complaints within the last two weeks that allege a post-fix unintended acceleration event has taken place, according to the LA Times.
LOL:
Quote
One report involves a 2010 Camry that was serviced according to the recent recalls on February 12. The driver reported that five days after having the recall work performed, her vehicle accelerated up a snowbank.
It does seem more and more that these drivers are simply idiots that are making the same mistake they made before the fix whatever that may be. I am not saying that there are not Toyotas that do have a rear problem. I think it is combination of causes, some driver, and some car related.
Well, when driving an automatic, I notice the car would start moving when I take my foot off the gas while in D. OMG UNINTENDED ACCELERATION!!! :facepalm:
I think the problem with Toyota cars lies between the steering wheel and the driver's seat.
I don't think this is driver error. If it were, it wouldn't be just Toyotas.
"If you can't prove it, it doesn't exist."
- GoCougs
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2010, 03:00:41 PM
I don't think this is driver error. If it were, it wouldn't be just Toyotas.
There's still no proof that it was caused by the cars themselves. The incidents reported and the claims are still statistically insignificant.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 03:23:24 PM
"If you can't prove it, it doesn't exist."
- GoCougs
Just remember, gravity's still technically just a theory....
All this is going to lead to is legislation mandating vehicle "blackboxes"... mark my words
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2010, 03:00:41 PM
I don't think this is driver error. If it were, it wouldn't be just Toyotas.
It could very well be hysteria.
For example:
a) Idiot driver X owns a 2007 Camry. Idiot driver X is prone to mashing on the throttle when idiot driver X should be hitting the brake. Idiot driver hits the throttle, and rear ends a car. Naturally, in most cases idiot driver X would be plowed, hard, by his/her insurance company, but because Toyota's are known for their sticky gas pedals, idiot driver X blames his/her stupidity on that. Problem solved.
b) Other car makes have similar problems, or Toyota's is overblown. However, now that it is in the media, and the nation is positively terrified that someone is going to turn their Yaris into a cruse missile, every single case is hyper analyzed to look for any link, no matter how small, to blame the incident on Toyota.
I'm not trying to defend Toyota per se, but I think there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.
Quote from: r0tor on March 03, 2010, 04:12:08 PM
All this is going to lead to is legislation mandating vehicle "blackboxes"... mark my words
"Blackboxes" are also electronic. They'll screw that up as well :lol:.
Just a small gripe I've had with Toyota and their quest for 'smartness'. When Honda came out with VTEC, Toyota, a little later, came out with VVTi. They took great pains to tell everyone that the 'i' stood for 'intelligence'. I thought back then, what a bunch of smug bastards. Now, they've overreached themselves and it bit them in the ass.
Quote from: Submariner on March 03, 2010, 04:34:00 PM
It could very well be hysteria.
For example:
a) Idiot driver X owns a 2007 Camry. Idiot driver X is prone to mashing on the throttle when idiot driver X should be hitting the brake. Idiot driver hits the throttle, and rear ends a car. Naturally, in most cases idiot driver X would be plowed, hard, by his/her insurance company, but because Toyota's are known for their sticky gas pedals, idiot driver X blames his/her stupidity on that. Problem solved.
b) Other car makes have similar problems, or Toyota's is overblown. However, now that it is in the media, and the nation is positively terrified that someone is going to turn their Yaris into a cruse missile, every single case is hyper analyzed to look for any link, no matter how small, to blame the incident on Toyota.
I'm not trying to defend Toyota per se, but I think there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.
Once again, does your computer always work perfectly?
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 03, 2010, 04:39:15 PM
Once again, does your computer always work perfectly?
It's typically user error... and Sub isn't the best person to ask about electronics working perfectly since he blows up anything he touches. :lol:
Quote from: NomisR on March 03, 2010, 04:51:10 PM
It's typically user error... and Sub isn't the best person to ask about electronics working perfectly since he blows up anything he touches. :lol:
Your use of the word 'typically' indicates that even you don't rule out computer error; whether software or some electronic malfunction. Vehicle computers are subject to greater extremes of heat, cold and generally bad environments than most personal computers.
You didn't hear this from me, but there is at least one instance where the MIL was lit after this repair and it was directly related to the APP. Seems that the service procedure calls for you to cycle the pedal before installing it for a reason. After cycling the pedal several times the fault cleared and the vehicle hasn't been back, so I assume all's well.
Anyway, until these are investigated it's hard to say what the problem is with the ones that were already serviced. For example, was the correct shim used? Also, is the sensor reading within range? One odd thing about the way the recall is written is that it calls for you to check the APP sensor reading with the scantool to make sure it's within a certain voltage range for each sensor. The problem is that it doesn't tell you what to do if the voltage is out of range or what that exactly means. So it's possible that there are actually a ton of pedals that just need to be replaced outright and that this fix isn't going to work 100% of the time.
If you guys want to read the recall I have no problem posting the text up here...
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 03, 2010, 05:41:39 PM
Your use of the word 'typically' indicates that even you don't rule out computer error; whether software or some electronic malfunction. Vehicle computers are subject to greater extremes of heat, cold and generally bad environments than most personal computers.
But computer errors are results of variations in programing, hardware, that are not parts of automotive operations. You don't install various 3rd party software nor do you have to worry about backward compatibility with computers. The software on a computer would be more comparable to software on a GPS unit which rarely if ever goes wrong due to external forces.
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2010, 03:47:53 PM
Just remember, gravity's still technically just a theory....
Actually, it is generally accepted that modern science does not know what gravity is. There are a number of "theories" (waves, particles, invisible matter, etc.) but they're so untestable and there are so many of them I dare say there is no "theory" of gravity but merely hypotheses.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 03, 2010, 04:39:15 PM
Once again, does your computer always work perfectly?
When is the last time an airplane fell out of the sky because its fly-by-wire stuff failed?
Einstein's general theory of relativity is what science uses to describe most gravitational phenomena.
Moreover it is painfully easy to prove that gravity exists.
Quote from: NomisR on March 03, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
But computer errors are results of variations in programing, hardware, that are not parts of automotive operations. You don't install various 3rd party software nor do you have to worry about backward compatibility with computers. The software on a computer would be more comparable to software on a GPS unit which rarely if ever goes wrong due to external forces.
Yes, rarely if ever.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
When is the last time an airplane fell out of the sky because its fly-by-wire stuff failed?
There are thousands of planes. There are millions of Toyotas.
Quote from: Tave on March 03, 2010, 06:18:09 PM
Einstein's general theory of relativity is what science uses to describe most gravitational phenomena.
Moreover it is painfully easy to prove that gravity exists.
Describing what gravity does is easy, at least for Big Stuff. Newton did that with classical mechanics a very long time ago, but that only applies to Big Stuff, as does Einstein's relativity. Quantum gravity, or the gravity of Small Stuff, is not described by either. Why? Because no one knows what gravity is. The person who figures out what gravity is (i.e., works for both Small Stuff and Big Stuff - IOW, Unified Theory) will be the next Einstein, maybe even more.
Quote from: NomisR on March 03, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
But computer errors are results of variations in programing, hardware, that are not parts of automotive operations. You don't install various 3rd party software nor do you have to worry about backward compatibility with computers. The software on a computer would be more comparable to software on a GPS unit which rarely if ever goes wrong due to external forces.
Right, the software doesn't go bad, it's what it uses to make its decisions which does.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 03, 2010, 06:40:50 PM
There are thousands of planes. There are millions of Toyotas.
The operative statistic I think is miles traveled, suffice it to say that the average jet liner is flying a lot more miles than a Toyota is driven. Probably a 1000x or more.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 07:22:33 PM
Describing what gravity does is easy, at least for Big Stuff. Newton did that with classical mechanics a very long time ago, but that only applies to Big Stuff, as does Einstein's relativity. Quantum gravity, or the gravity of Small Stuff, is not described by either. Why? Because no one knows what gravity is.
It's the curvature of space-time caused by mass.
QuoteThe person who figures out what gravity is (i.e., works for both Small Stuff and Big Stuff - IOW, Unified Theory) will be the next Einstein, maybe even more.
No doubt.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
When is the last time an airplane fell out of the sky because its fly-by-wire stuff failed?
Apples and oranges. Automobiles and their parts and maintenance are not subject to near the same level of certification, testing and maintenance as aircraft are under Subchapter C of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
Quote from: Tave on March 03, 2010, 07:31:22 PM
It's the curvature of space-time caused by mass.
It's a description not an explanation, and why it doesn't work on the quantum level.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 03, 2010, 07:35:18 PM
Apples and oranges. Automobiles and their parts and maintenance are not subject to near the same level of certification, testing and maintenance as aircraft are under Subchapter C of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
And cars aren't subject to anything near the level of the harshness of environment...
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 07:40:03 PM
And cars aren't subject to anything near the level of the harshness of environment...
Hmm... no, I think you're wrong there. You get dramatic temperature swings, vibration, moisture, dust, etc. in both cases, possibly more in automotive applications.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2010, 07:38:45 PM
It's a description not an explanation, and why it doesn't work on the quantum level.
Bah--if we want to get heady we can say that no one really knows what matter is either. It's a "good enough" explanation.
Quote from: R-inge on March 03, 2010, 07:44:22 PM
Hmm... no, I think you're wrong there. You get dramatic temperature swings, vibration, moisture, dust, etc. in both cases, possibly more in automotive applications.
You will get much colder temps at altitude, but the sensitive electronics are in a climate controlled environment. Other than that I fully agree, vibration is worse in a car as is moisture, dust, piotential for abuse etc.
I think most telling though is that aircraft are essentially hand built one at a time from parts that are extremely over specified and inspected to the nth degree. and subject to maintenance requirements that are unbelievable. As a pilot, I wouldn't have it any other way. Cars on the other hand can be very poorly maintained and never inspected to the extent an airplane is and still be allowed on the road.
I can't wait for Cougs to start arguing with a mechanic and be proven wrong, only then to have him proclaim victory because of his internetry.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 03, 2010, 07:57:16 PM
You will get much colder temps at altitude, but the sensitive electronics are in a climate controlled environment. Other than that I fully agree, vibration is worse in a car as is moisture, dust, piotential for abuse etc.
I think most telling though is that aircraft are essentially hand built one at a time from parts that are extremely over specified and inspected to the nth degree. and subject to maintenance requirements that are unbelievable. As a pilot, I wouldn't have it any other way. Cars on the other hand can be very poorly maintained and never inspected to the extent an airplane is and still be allowed on the road.
How cold is it at 40,000 feet? I know when I lived in Edmonton my truck had to run at -40C (-40F). But then again so do the planes that land in Edmonton. However their electronics are in a climate controlled environment.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 03, 2010, 07:57:16 PM
You will get much colder temps at altitude, but the sensitive electronics are in a climate controlled environment. Other than that I fully agree, vibration is worse in a car as is moisture, dust, piotential for abuse etc.
I think most telling though is that aircraft are essentially hand built one at a time from parts that are extremely over specified and inspected to the nth degree. and subject to maintenance requirements that are unbelievable. As a pilot, I wouldn't have it any other way. Cars on the other hand can be very poorly maintained and never inspected to the extent an airplane is and still be allowed on the road.
Exactly.
Very telling of the quality of electronics, IMO, is something I heard from a friend who works for an HP supplier here in town. He said that their wafer production yields surprisingly high numbers of good chips due to the quality of their clean room. I can't remember the exact percentage, but just for the sake of discussion they had something like 80% good chips versus maybe 50% as an industry average. Mass produced electronics simply aren't as good as something hand built like you mentioned.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2010, 08:06:23 PM
I can't wait for Cougs to start arguing with a mechanic and be proven wrong, only then to have him proclaim victory because of his internetry.
Well, he's kicked my ass in arguments before too so I've got a degree of humility on the subject.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 03, 2010, 06:37:34 PM
Yes, rarely if ever.
Yes, i'm not ruling out problems with the car, but like I've stated before, the number of occurences is statistically insignificant for the amount of panic that has happened recently. Also there are plenty of BS claims that surfaced as a result as well. As stated before, you can bet money on it that over 99% of the claims are likely the result of malfunction on the item that resides between the steering wheel and the seat.
Extra dimensional string vibrations!
Quote from: Laconian on March 03, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
Extra dimensional string vibrations!
I used to be huge into Astronomy/Physics when I was younger, but I decided not to go into it in college. I could handle the harder math, but what really interested me was observational Astronomy, and there simply isn't a fun career in that without a PhD and a genius command of astrophysics.
I wish I'd stuck with it though, because I had a knack. I could probably teach an Intro to Astronomy class at a university, I know the material so well.
Quote from: Tave on March 03, 2010, 07:45:15 PM
Bah--if we want to get heady we can say that no one really knows what matter is either. It's a "good enough" explanation.
It's not good enough. If it were, the whole of the scientific world would not be chasing Unified Theory. Actually figuring out what gravity is is
the Holy Grail of physics.
Quote from: R-inge on March 03, 2010, 07:44:22 PM
Hmm... no, I think you're wrong there. You get dramatic temperature swings, vibration, moisture, dust, etc. in both cases, possibly more in automotive applications.
I was more or less thinking of the two different groups as a whole; airplanes vs. cars. Some cars do experience extremes in temperature and the like, but they're relatively few and far between, as are the miles they travel under such circumstances. Virtually all jet airliners suffer extremes in environment for virtually every mile they travel.
As to the specifics of airliner extremes, temperature (down to -100F), low pressure/humidity, and the constant vibration of flight and of landing and taking off, is substantial. Sure the electronics are designed for it, but the extremes are ever present and substantial.
Plenty of airliner electronics, especially as it pertains to the business end, are not protected from the environment as they are out on and/or run through the body of the aircraft (sensors, wiring and actuators on/through wings, stabilizers, landing gear, lights, engines, etc.). Sure they're designed for it but I think the extremes are greater than the average car.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 12:14:13 AM
It's not good enough. If it were, the whole of the scientific world would not be chasing Unified Theory. Actually figuring out what gravity is is the Holy Grail of physics.
Yes, but in a practical sense, likely meaningless to you and I.
Quote from: Tave on March 04, 2010, 12:45:33 AM
Yes, but in a practical sense, likely meaningless to you and I.
Certainly, put it is critically important that I remind everyone that my original point remains correct. Only what gravity
does is a theory (law really). How it actually
works/what it actually is, nobody knows for sure.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 01:08:20 AM
Only what gravity does is a theory (law really).
Umm, we can observe what Gravity
Does. Then we theorize on what it Actually does.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2010, 08:09:34 PM
How cold is it at 40,000 feet? I know when I lived in Edmonton my truck had to run at -40C (-40F). But then again so do the planes that land in Edmonton. However their electronics are in a climate controlled environment.
Assuming uniformity of temperatures changes as altitude the lapse rate, the rate by which temperature decreases as altitude increases is about 3.56 degrees F. So in theory if it's 70F at sea level it would be about -70F at 40,000. However, weather is dynamic so it may not be that cold. I snipped the below from wikipedia:
The environmental lapse rate (ELR), is the rate of decrease of temperature with altitude in the stationary atmosphere at a given time and location. As an average, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) defines an international standard atmosphere (ISA) with a temperature lapse rate of 6.49 K(?C)/1,000 m (3.56 ?F or 1.98 K(?C)/1,000 Ft) from sea level to 11 km (36,090 ft). From 11 km (36,090 ft or 6.8 mi) up to 20 km (65,620 ft or 12.4 mi), the constant temperature is −56.5 ?C (−69.7 ?F), which is the lowest assumed temperature in the ISA. The standard atmosphere contains no moisture. Unlike the idealized ISA, the temperature of the actual atmosphere does not always fall at a uniform rate with height. For example, there can be an inversion layer in which the temperature increases with height.Aircraft systems, including electronics, are designed for their environment. I think it's safe to say that those systems are designed not to fail in the worst likely situatuion; a far greater margin of safety. Again from Wikipedia:
Safety and Redundancy
Aircraft systems may be quadruplexed (four independent channels) in order to prevent loss of signals in the case of failure of one or even two channels. High performance aircraft that have FBW controls (also called CCVs or Control-Configured Vehicles) may be deliberately designed to have low or even negative aerodynamic stability in some flight regimes, the rapid-reacting CCV controls compensating for the lack of natural stability.
Weight Saving
A FBW aircraft can be lighter than a similar design with conventional controls. Partly due to the lower overall weight of the system components; and partly because the natural aerodynamic stability of the aircraft can be relaxed, slightly for a transport aircraft and more for a maneuverable fighter, which means that the stability surfaces that are part of the aircraft structure can therefore be made smaller. These include the vertical and horizontal stabilizers (fin and tailplane) that are (normally) at the rear of the fuselage. If these structures can be reduced in size, airframe weight is reduced. The advantages of FBW controls were first exploited by the military and then in the commercial airline market. The Airbus series of airliners used full-authority FBW controls beginning with their A320 series, see A320 flight control (though some limited FBW functions existed on A310).[6] Boeing followed with their 777 and later designs.
Electronic fly-by-wire systems can respond flexibly to changing aerodynamic conditions, by tailoring flight control surface movements so that aircraft response to control inputs is appropriate to flight conditions. Electronic systems require less maintenance, whereas mechanical and hydraulic systems require lubrication, tension adjustments, leak checks, fluid changes, etc. Furthermore, putting circuitry between pilot and aircraft can enhance safety; for example the control system can try to prevent a stall, or it can stop the pilot from over stressing the airframe.
The main concern with fly-by-wire systems is reliability. While traditional mechanical or hydraulic control systems usually fail gradually, the loss of all flight control computers could immediately render the aircraft uncontrollable. For this reason, most fly-by-wire systems incorporate either redundant computers (triplex, quadruplex etc), some kind of mechanical or hydraulic backup or a combination of both. A "mixed" control system such as the latter is not desirable and modern FBW aircraft normally avoid it by having more independent FBW channels, thereby reducing the possibility of overall failure to minuscule levels that are acceptable to the independent regulatory and safety authority responsible for aircraft design, testing and certification before operational service.I've never heard of an automobile equipped with that degree of redundancy, hence the problem; if something fails you are potrentially screwed.
Quote from: NomisR on March 03, 2010, 09:02:20 PM
Yes, i'm not ruling out problems with the car, but like I've stated before, the number of occurences is statistically insignificant for the amount of panic that has happened recently. Also there are plenty of BS claims that surfaced as a result as well. As stated before, you can bet money on it that over 99% of the claims are likely the result of malfunction on the item that resides between the steering wheel and the seat.
sadly, you can scream rational principals till your blue in the face on a completely irrational/emotional issue like this and it will never have any effect.... One thing I've learned in industry is when it comes to a "safety issue", there is no arguement against it and all rational arguements will be thrown out instantly.
(... enviromental issues fall under the same category as well...)
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 01:08:20 AM
Certainly, put it is critically important that I remind everyone that my original point remains correct. Only what gravity does is a theory (law really). How it actually works/what it actually is, nobody knows for sure.
:lol:
you know, if there ever really was a problem where the actual throttle position did match the desired position that the accelerator was indicating, you would think one of the following Toyota specific codes would be throwing a red flag...
P0120 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Malfunction
P0121 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0122 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Low Input
P0123 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit High Input
P0124 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Intermittent
P0220 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Malfunction
P0221 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0222 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Low Input
P0223 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit High Input
P0224 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Intermittent
P0225 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Malfunction
P0226 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0227 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Low Input
P0228 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit High Input
P0229 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Intermittent
P1120 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P1121 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Range/Performance Problem
P1125 Throttle Control Motor Circuit Malfunction
P1128 Throttle Control Motor Lock Malfunction
P1129 Electric Throttle Control System Malfunction
P1400 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Circuit Fault
P1401 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Performance
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 07:02:17 AM
I've never heard of an automobile equipped with that degree of redundancy, hence the problem; if something fails you are potrentially screwed.
Depends on your definition of "screwed." If the fail condition is dangerous; i.e., WOT, no brakes, whatever, sure. However, that is highly unlikely the case with any control system, Toyota DBW included. Like any control system worth its salt, if there is a failure, Toyota DBW will fail safe (i.e., rendered as safe as possible - in this case, close the throttle). This is industry standard for control systems.
I present:
Quote from: r0tor on March 04, 2010, 08:05:31 AM
you know, if there ever really was a problem where the actual throttle position did match the desired position that the accelerator was indicating, you would think one of the following Toyota specific codes would be throwing a red flag...
P0120 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Malfunction
P0121 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0122 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Low Input
P0123 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit High Input
P0124 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Intermittent
P0220 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Malfunction
P0221 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0222 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Low Input
P0223 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit High Input
P0224 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Intermittent
P0225 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Malfunction
P0226 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0227 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Low Input
P0228 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit High Input
P0229 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Intermittent
P1120 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P1121 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Range/Performance Problem
P1125 Throttle Control Motor Circuit Malfunction
P1128 Throttle Control Motor Lock Malfunction
P1129 Electric Throttle Control System Malfunction
P1400 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Circuit Fault
P1401 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Performance
Quote from: r0tor on March 04, 2010, 08:05:31 AM
you know, if there ever really was a problem where the actual throttle position did match the desired position that the accelerator was indicating, you would think one of the following Toyota specific codes would be throwing a red flag...
P0120 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Malfunction
P0121 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0122 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Low Input
P0123 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit High Input
P0124 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Intermittent
P0220 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Malfunction
P0221 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0222 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Low Input
P0223 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit High Input
P0224 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "B" Circuit Intermittent
P0225 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Malfunction
P0226 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Range/Performance Problem
P0227 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Low Input
P0228 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit High Input
P0229 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "C" Circuit Intermittent
P1120 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P1121 Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor Range/Performance Problem
P1125 Throttle Control Motor Circuit Malfunction
P1128 Throttle Control Motor Lock Malfunction
P1129 Electric Throttle Control System Malfunction
P1400 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Circuit Fault
P1401 Sub-Throttle Position Sensor Performance
What is your honest opinion about what's going on here?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 09:48:09 AM
Depends on your definition of "screwed." If the fail condition is dangerous; i.e., WOT, no brakes, whatever, sure. However, that is highly unlikely the case with any control system, Toyota DBW included. Like any control system worth its salt, if there is a failure, Toyota DBW will fail safe (i.e., rendered as safe as possible - in this case, close the throttle). This is industry standard for control systems.
I present:
Hell, even my extremely archaic Elise has a limp mode if anything goes wrong, so it would be extremely surprised if Toyotas don't have any sort of fail safe in that regards.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 09:48:09 AM
Depends on your definition of "screwed." If the fail condition is dangerous; i.e., WOT, no brakes, whatever, sure. However, that is highly unlikely the case with any control system, Toyota DBW included. Like any control system worth its salt, if there is a failure, Toyota DBW will fail safe (i.e., rendered as safe as possible - in this case, close the throttle). This is industry standard for control systems.
Apparently not.
Quote from: NomisR on March 04, 2010, 10:04:57 AM
Hell, even my extremely archaic Elise has a limp mode if anything goes wrong, so it would be extremely surprised if Toyotas don't have any sort of fail safe in that regards.
I can put it this way - if Toyota didn't have some sort of fail-safe mode, Toyota went against just about every industry control standard there is. Chances that Toyota did not follow industry standard are ultra extremely unlikely.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 10:07:49 AM
Apparently not.
I remind everyone the onus is not on the disprover, but on the prover, and no one has yet proven that any of these claims have merit. Meaning, no one has said, "here's a car that has this problem, and here's what caused it." IOW, if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist. (And no one has proven it.)
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2010, 09:54:39 AM
What is your honest opinion about what's going on here?
MY personal opinion is that (in rare conditions) the ECU is going nutz and thinking the driver has the gas pedal mashed to the floor no matter what.
The fact that no codes are thrown means the sensors, wires, and physical pedal mechanism all work ok.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 10:15:54 AM
I remind everyone the onus is not on the disprover, but on the prover, and no one has yet proven that any of these claims have merit. Meaning, no one has said, "here's a car that has this problem, and here's what caused it." IOW, if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist. (And no one has proven it.)
Can you tell the difference between?
(http://www.fakecrap.com/images/jokes/dog_doo_hard.jpg)
and
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Shinola.jpg/220px-Shinola.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 10:15:54 AM
I remind everyone the onus is not on the disprover, but on the prover, and no one has yet proven that any of these claims have merit. Meaning, no one has said, "here's a car that has this problem, and here's what caused it." IOW, if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist. (And no one has proven it.)
Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, take aliens for example. We can't prove they exist, but you have to be pretty damn short sighted to think we are the only inhabited planet anywhere in the universe.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2010, 10:25:43 AM
Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, take aliens for example. We can't prove they exist, but you have to be pretty damn short sighted to think we are the only inhabited planet anywhere in the universe.
Apparently the moon didn't even have a farside (backside) until the Russians sent a spacecraft around the moon to photograph it. :lol:
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2010, 10:25:43 AM
Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mean, take aliens for example. We can't prove they exist, but you have to be pretty damn short sighted to think we are the only inhabited planet anywhere in the universe.
The corollary to your assertion is, you must disprove everything to prove said one thing. This of course is a logically fallacy, and a practical impossibility of infinity ("everything").
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2010, 09:54:39 AM
What is your honest opinion about what's going on here?
Looking at the real probability of failure (what 2-3 out of every 100,000?), I'd say that yea 1 out of 100,000 drivers will hit the gas instead of the brake pedal in a panic, 1-2 out of 100,000 wil definately lie to save their ass if they screwed up, and yea 1 out of 500,000 ECU's could get a malfunction and go whacko...
what i think i really telling was how absolutely easily C&D was able to bring a Camry to a hault from 60mph and even 90mph with the throttle pinned... just like when they did a test of how difficult it was to roll an Explorer with a tire blowout. This whole senario rollercoasted wayy past rational thinking a month ago.
:partyon:
Quote from: r0tor on March 04, 2010, 10:53:43 AM
Looking at the real probability of failure (what 2-3 out of every 100,000?), I'd say that yea 1 out of 100,000 drivers will hit the gas instead of the brake pedal in a panic, 1-2 out of 100,000 wil definately lie to save their ass if they screwed up, and yea 1 out of 500,000 ECU's could get a malfunction and go whacko...
what i think i really telling was how absolutely easily C&D was able to bring a Camry to a hault from 60mph and even 90mph with the throttle pinned... just like when they did a test of how difficult it was to roll an Explorer with a tire blowout. This whole senario rollercoasted wayy past rational thinking a month ago.
:partyon:
Of course in both of those instances the test subject, the C&D, staffer was aware of the test situation and the C&D staffer is oprobably a better than average driver. So, those tests may not reflect the experience of the average driver caught unaware in the middle of real traffic.
Stomping on the brake pedal requires not to much driving talent
I've seen in my not so long lifetime at least 5-10 or so instances on the news where in a parking lot somebody goes crashing into a store because they hit the gas instead of the brake. Shit happens. If something like that were to happen today and in a Toyota everyone and their brother would declare it a Toyota defect.
Quote from: r0tor on March 04, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
Stomping on the brake pedal requires not to much driving talent
I've seen in my not so long lifetime at least 5-10 or so instances on the news where in a parking lot somebody goes crashing into a store because they hit the gas instead of the brake. Shit happens. If something like that were to happen today and in a Toyota everyone and their brother would declare it a Toyota defect.
True, it doesn't. But people are typically taught to "Pump the Brakes" and most people won't slam on the brakes to the point where they get shin splints from the effort. I would expect the typical paniced driver to first be startled, then if they hit the brakes, after taking their foot off the gas tand realizing the car wasn't going to stop to then try the brakes with maybe harder than normal force. They might see that didn't give immediate relief and take their foot off the brakes and try something else. We know they should stand on the brakes until they either stop the car of fail completely, but there is no guarantee joe average would know that.
Toyota doesn't put in their owners manual that if the car accelerates on it's own you should stand on the brakes, nor do trheyu tell you you press the start/stop button for 3 seconds to shut down the engine. And even if they did who reads the owner's manual. :huh:
I heard a story on NPR yesterday where a researcher looked at all unintended acceleration reports from all manufacturers for the last ten years. This problem has been reported for Honda, Nissans, VW, GM and other manufacturers. But the number of incidents when compared with the number of vehicles sold show that the complaint rate for Toyota is about double that of other brands. Does this mean Toyota drivers are twice as inept as the average driver?
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 11:55:01 AM
Does this mean Toyota drivers are twice as inept as the average driver?
Purely from an observational point of view, the answer is Yes. Toyota drivers on average are most likely to not know how to brake properly, meaning, they typically slam on their brakes to stop their car rather apply proper pressure to ensure your car slows to a stop at the point you intend to stop. They're also more likely to ride their brakes on average compared to other drivers.
Of course I have no data to back any of this up, and it could be the fact that the Toyota cars typically have non-linear brakes and gas pedals may have a lot to do with it too, but then, if it causes them to drive so poorly, why would they buy the car? So it's still down to the driver who are so inept that they do not notice the faults of the car prior to purchase.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 11:55:01 AM
I heard a story on NPR yesterday where a researcher looked at all unintended acceleration reports from all manufacturers for the last ten years. This problem has been reported for Honda, Nissans, VW, GM and other manufacturers. But the number of incidents when compared with the number of vehicles sold show that the complaint rate for Toyota is about double that of other brands. Does this mean Toyota drivers are twice as inept as the average driver?
The problem of doubling an insignificantly small number is its still insignificantly small number... in a statistical-scientific world, the value changed but the meaning didn't
I'd maintain the human defect ratio is far above the 3 in 100,000 we have on this problem.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 11:55:01 AM
Toyota doesn't put in their owners manual that if the car accelerates on it's own you should stand on the brakes, nor do trheyu tell you you press the start/stop button for 3 seconds to shut down the engine. And even if they did who reads the owner's manual. :huh:
Actually all drivers should know they need to hold the button for 3 seconds as that the only way they can ever turn off their engine....
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 01:08:20 AM
Certainly, put it is critically important that I remind everyone that my original point remains correct. Only what gravity does is a theory (law really). How it actually works/what it actually is, nobody knows for sure.
But knowing what it does is enough to place gravity as a whole as more then a hypothesis. We know that gravity is linked to mass, but also interacts with mass less objects such as photons and time. We can definitely measure the effect.
Quote from: r0tor on March 04, 2010, 01:32:45 PM
Actually all drivers should know they need to hold the button for 3 seconds as that the only way they can ever turn off their engine....
Well I should win the lottery Saturday and retire rich. Ain't gonna' happen though. :lol:
What people should do and what they do are two different things, unfortunately.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 04, 2010, 01:39:54 PM
Well I should win the lottery Saturday and retire rich. Ain't gonna' happen though. :lol:
What people should do and what they do are two different things, unfortunately.
See thats more or less the concept of statistical people saying that the number of defects/opinions/size/weight/ect is either inside the 95% or 97% confidence level and therefore meaningful, or outside that confidence level and labeled as "random". So if there were enough defects to be in a confidence level, you could say that with 95% confidence that the drivers are all competant and there is a problem. With 2 or 3 in 100,000 is a completely random occurance.
I can tell you that the safety world gets complete utter hearburn if anything is ever called "random" because to them nothing is "random" and everything is "preventable" to them.
One cannot claim statistical significance based solely on the (in)frequency of incidences; 50 out of 1,000,000 might very well be statistically significant.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_black_boxes
Toyota might have been hiding data?
The crazy part to me is that I cannot fathom having only ONE SYSTEM in the entire country for checking the ecu data. I'm sure it would have been helpful to Toyota to prove that people were hitting the gas instead of the brake-
-or did they already know years ago there was a 'glitch'??
Toyota isn't hiding data, it said its black boxes' data are not for public consumption; what it collects, how it collects, etc., is not meant for accident investigation. It's for Toyota use only for diagnostics, R&D, and other stuff. But, yeah, this is exactly where this is going - federally mandated automobile black boxes. Won't that be a LOLzer.
Another reason to keep my car till either it dies or I do.
I'm still waiting for the day when there is proof.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Toyota isn't hiding data, it said its black boxes' data are not for public consumption; what it collects, how it collects, etc., is not meant for accident investigation. It's for Toyota use only for diagnostics, R&D, and other stuff.
You'd still think they'd have more than one machine in the US able to check them out- and that as the crap started to fly they'd be proactively tapping into them to show that the accelerator was or wasn't mashed....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 04, 2010, 06:35:29 PM
You'd still think they'd have more than one machine in the US able to check them out- and that as the crap started to fly they'd be proactively tapping into them to show that the accelerator was or wasn't mashed....
I have a feeling that the data is inconclusive; meaning, it's not meant to collect data to be used as an investigative tool of such importance. Whether because the data isn't time stamped, is randomly organized, is sporadic, or whatever, it just isn't worth much of anything useful.
My strong hunch is if they had found something conclusively that there was a problem with their system there would already be a whistle blower or two that would have already gone to the media.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 01:54:33 PM
One cannot claim statistical significance based solely on the (in)frequency of incidences; 50 out of 1,000,000 might very well be statistically significant.
Significance only means something is statstically significantly different in comparison to something else. In this case that would be the frequency of Toyota's event in comparison to the frequency of events of other makes. R0tor already ran the numbers of Toyota against all the other manufacturers and found no statistical significance.
It makes sense in exceeding rare events for the variation to be high because the noise to signal ratio is so high.
All this speculation about a massive cover up reminds me of something I heard this morning on the radio about some dickbag senator saying something off the record about banning all Japanese cars till they can be, "proven to be safe," sort of like what they did with our beef a while back. Fuckin' idiot doesn't seem to realize that many if not most of these cars are built in US plants.
Like r0tor has pointed out, this shit is all media driven hype at this point. Some self important fuckers just running their mouths about shit they don't understand.
Quote from: R-inge on March 04, 2010, 07:24:59 PM
All this speculation about a massive cover up reminds me of something I heard this morning on the radio about some dickbag senator saying something off the record about banning all Japanese cars till they can be, "proven to be safe," sort of like what they did with our beef a while back. Fuckin' idiot doesn't seem to realize that many if not most of these cars are built in US plants.
Like r0tor has pointed out, this shit is all media driven hype at this point. Some self important fuckers just running their mouths about shit they don't understand.
A person that stupid shouldn't be serving as a senator. Rather, he should be ground up and served as dog food.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 04, 2010, 06:07:04 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_black_boxes
Toyota might have been hiding data?
The crazy part to me is that I cannot fathom having only ONE SYSTEM in the entire country for checking the ecu data. I'm sure it would have been helpful to Toyota to prove that people were hitting the gas instead of the brake-
-or did they already know years ago there was a 'glitch'??
I totally 10000% approve of Toyota not sharing the black box data.
The data recorders were put in cars to help automakers better understand crash conditions so they could inprove vehicle safety - NOT TO BE USED AS EVIDENCE IN A LAWSUIT. If I remember correctly, when the idea to start installing them in cars came about in the first place - its was strongly expressed that these devices were not to be used in a courtroom.
If Toyota opens up 1 black box they are opening up pandora's box for thousands of lawsuits from everyday crashes between the parties involved...Additionally, these devices only store small amounts of data the gets continually overwritten and the data collection points usually revolve around vehicle speed and airbag performance. An airbag switch is usually used as the trigger to record the final data snapshot (meaning stop overwritting and now record for an additional few seconds) so a stuck throttle with no crash would most likely not result with any data being stored. Also, not every sensor is recorded so its not cut and dry that toyota's system is actually monitoring all the parameters they would need to troubleshoot this anyway.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2010, 06:22:31 PM
Toyota isn't hiding data, it said its black boxes' data are not for public consumption; what it collects, how it collects, etc., is not meant for accident investigation. It's for Toyota use only for diagnostics, R&D, and other stuff. But, yeah, this is exactly where this is going - federally mandated automobile black boxes. Won't that be a LOLzer.
Yeah and medical records aren't compiled and saved for use in court cases either. But they can be subpoened and used as evidence if the information is germane to that court case. Toyota doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if the information in those black boxes were to Toyota's benefit they'd be crazy not to produce it to prove no worng doing.
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 06:05:12 AM
If Toyota opens up 1 black box they are opening up pandora's box for thousands of lawsuits from everyday crashes between the parties involved...
According to the article, other manufacturers allow that data to be used for accident analysis. If the data is actually showing that these sudden acceleration cases are a result of someone stomping on the gas instead of the brake, why not go public and exonerate themselves?
If nothing else keeping the data secret is a PR mistake, and they need all the positive PR they can get this point.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 05, 2010, 06:52:05 AM
According to the article, other manufacturers allow that data to be used for accident analysis. If the data is actually showing that these sudden acceleration cases are a result of someone stomping on the gas instead of the brake, why not go public and exonerate themselves?
If nothing else keeping the data secret is a PR mistake, and they need all the positive PR they can get this point.
It doesn't say the level of detail available in other manufacturers boxes. Most cases its vehicle speed and airbag deployment and if the brakes were used. These are not boxes made for accident reconstruction.
I don't think yourself would want a lawyer to open up your car's black box and share with the jury your driving habits and how you reacted in a crash and in a civil lawsuit have something in your own car used against you. Maybe you'd like a police officer to plug into your car and see the cars recorded top speed? This reasoning that all boxes should be able to be seen in court will lead down an ugly path where the jury will be sitting in a court room watching you gas pedal position, brake pedal position, steering inputs, how loud your radio was, ect ect and in a civil lawsuit having an "expert" evaluate your driving capabilities.
Every car today can have its ECU read by a OBDII scanner - however its just a scratch on the surface to the total information you'd get with an OEM tool.
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 07:07:34 AM
It doesn't say the level of detail available in other manufacturers boxes. Most cases its vehicle speed and airbag deployment and if the brakes were used. These are not boxes made for accident reconstruction...
True, but I wasn't referring to accidents in general. It appears from the article that the type of information you're describing is already being made available to law enforcement although what weight it has in court or how exact it is I confess I have no idea. So from a driver's rights perspective that cat's already out of the bag.
Toyota has a very specific problem on its hands. If there were some unwritten rule that the information found in those devices never be revealed they'd have a better case, but since it's clear that other manufacturers release that information, there's a precedent for it. Toyota and Honda don't release that information, but under the circumstances if they could show that the brakes were not used prior to the crash they could make an evidence based assertion that the accidents were driver caused and put this ugliness behind them.
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 07:07:34 AM
It doesn't say the level of detail available in other manufacturers boxes. Most cases its vehicle speed and airbag deployment and if the brakes were used. These are not boxes made for accident reconstruction.
I don't think yourself would want a lawyer to open up your car's black box and share with the jury your driving habits and how you reacted in a crash and in a civil lawsuit have something in your own car used against you. Maybe you'd like a police officer to plug into your car and see the cars recorded top speed? This reasoning that all boxes should be able to be seen in court will lead down an ugly path where the jury will be sitting in a court room watching you gas pedal position, brake pedal position, steering inputs, how loud your radio was, ect ect and in a civil lawsuit having an "expert" evaluate your driving capabilities.
Every car today can have its ECU read by a OBDII scanner - however its just a scratch on the surface to the total information you'd get with an OEM tool.
You'd rather get burned because the jury thinks the other guy is a nicer person or because you looked at #6 the wrong way?
OH NOES THEY MIGHT USE OBJECTIVE DATA TO FIGURE OUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. THE HORROR, THE HORROR!
Quote from: Tave on March 05, 2010, 07:19:38 AM
You'd rather get burned because the jury thinks the other guy is a nicer person or because you looked at #6 the wrong way?
OH NOES THEY MIGHT USE OBJECTIVE DATA TO FIGURE OUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. THE HORROR, THE HORROR!
...becareful what you ask for, it may come true one day...
i'm just going to end with that
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 07:33:27 AM
...becareful what you ask for, it may come true one day...
i'm just going to end with that
Yeah, I might cause an accident and not be able to lie about it under oath. Shucks.
More like ...one day there is going to be an accident in front of you and your reaction is going to be to keep on the gas to shoot through the closing gap in the wreckage to avoid it. You will fail. You will say you tried avoiding the fatal accident in court. The data will show you never hit the brakes. The lawyer will show the jury the data and claim you weren't paying attention and just plowed into the other party. Your fucked.
Data can make a compelling arguement even if used the wrong way... be careful what you ask for
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 05, 2010, 06:34:27 AM
Yeah and medical records aren't compiled and saved for use in court cases either. But they can be subpoened and used as evidence if the information is germane to that court case. Toyota doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if the information in those black boxes were to Toyota's benefit they'd be crazy not to produce it to prove no worng doing.
Something tells me r0tor has the same experience as I with these types of industrial data logging devices. Something you don't have, and neither does the vast majority of the populace. I have a fair amount of experience; both with systems I've programmed and systems programmed by others and whether they were custom on-off or an OEM device.
OMG IT'S DATA. But it's not necessarily useful. Without having the experience it's hard to communicate beyond that other than to say Toyota's devices likely aren't traceable data logging devices; the data simply ain't worth much of anything to the situation at hand, or not to anyone without intimate knowledge of how the data logging works, or of how the product works.
And of course Toyota is protecting itself, and its customers, from preventing this data from carte blanche use by every lawyer and prosecutor in the country. LOLzers, if you types are all up in arms about red light and speeding cameras, imagine if every single data were put through the ringer of plaintiff lawyers, investigating officers and prosecutors? But I guess if it's to take a shens on Toyota, that's okay? Listen to yourselves is all I ask.
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 07:51:09 AM
More like ...one day there is going to be an accident in front of you and your reaction is going to be to keep on the gas to shoot through the closing gap in the wreckage to avoid it. You will fail. You will say you tried avoiding the fatal accident in court. The data will show you never hit the brakes. The lawyer will show the jury the data and claim you weren't paying attention and just plowed into the other party. Your fucked.
Data can make a compelling arguement even if used the wrong way... be careful what you ask for
How is that any different from an accident report that determines you didn't brake based on your skid marks (or absence thereof)?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 05, 2010, 09:16:05 AM
OMG IT'S DATA. But it's not necessarily useful. Without having the experience it's hard to communicate beyond that other than to say Toyota's devices likely aren't traceable data logging devices; the data simply ain't worth much of anything to the situation at hand, or not to anyone without intimate knowledge of how the data logging works, or of how the product works.
That doesn't seem to be the stance Toyota is taking on this though.
QuoteAnd of course Toyota is protecting itself, and its customers, from preventing this data from carte blanche use by every lawyer and prosecutor in the country. LOLzers, if you types are all up in arms about red light and speeding cameras, imagine if every single data were put through the ringer of plaintiff lawyers, investigating officers and prosecutors? But I guess if it's to take a shens on Toyota, that's okay? Listen to yourselves is all I ask.
That argument would hold water if it weren't for the fact that other manufacturers are already making that data available. Some on request, Honda will do it on a court order. So it isn't as if they're setting a precedent that would suddenly change how accidents are viewed. If they release the data from those cars that allegedly took off out of control, either the data would be inconclusive, in which case they could at least get positive PR from the fact that they would appear to be co-operating rather than stonewalling or it would show that the driver was at fault or the car was at fault.
i am convinced that toyota will not just survive, they will thrive. for whatever reason, i do not think even the american people would be so forgiving of gm, ford or chrysler. this issue could happen to any automaker. i worry more about what we do not know that what has been exposed, but not just regarding toyota.
Quote from: Jon? on March 05, 2010, 10:14:48 AM
That doesn't seem to be the stance Toyota is taking on this though.
That argument would hold water if it weren't for the fact that other manufacturers are already making that data available. Some on request, Honda will do it on a court order. So it isn't as if they're setting a precedent that would suddenly change how accidents are viewed. If they release the data from those cars that allegedly took off out of control, either the data would be inconclusive, in which case they could at least get positive PR from the fact that they would appear to be co-operating rather than stonewalling or it would show that the driver was at fault or the car was at fault.
Like I said, not all data is created equal; from time stamp, to frequency of collection, to resolution of signal, to plenty of other stuff, it's hard to say if this would be useful or in the least easily skewed/manipulated depending on who does the analysis.
As to the PR side, my hunch is Toyota ain't seeing any answers either way in the data, and as we have seen with the Audi 5k debacle of the '80s, Audi did exactly that - they (rightfully) blamed their stupid customers and it cost them dearly.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 05, 2010, 06:52:05 AM
According to the article, other manufacturers allow that data to be used for accident analysis. If the data is actually showing that these sudden acceleration cases are a result of someone stomping on the gas instead of the brake, why not go public and exonerate themselves?
If nothing else keeping the data secret is a PR mistake, and they need all the positive PR they can get this point.
this was my point.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 05, 2010, 09:16:05 AM
...OMG IT'S DATA. But it's not necessarily useful. Without having the experience it's hard to communicate beyond that other than to say Toyota's devices likely aren't traceable data logging devices; the data simply ain't worth much of anything to the situation at hand, or not to anyone without intimate knowledge of how the data logging works, or of how the product works.
...
What alerted me on this WHOLE ISSUE is that Toyota had
one computer in the entire country to even TRY to collect evidence to
figure out what was is going wrong. (now they have FOUR. Great job, Toyota!!!!)
So, either
1- You're right and they knew they wouldn't get ANY useful data
2- They suspected deep problems (which ECU investigation would reveal) and chose to sweep it more under the rug
3- They're scared ECU forensics would show the cars were responsible, and it's CYA
I do NOT want any gub'ment getting their hands on data. But it seems Toyota wasn't (isn't) doing all they could to figure out the problems..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 05, 2010, 10:47:33 AM
this was my point.
What alerted me on this WHOLE ISSUE is that Toyota had one computer in the entire country to even TRY to collect evidence to figure out what was is going wrong. (now they have FOUR. Great job, Toyota!!!!)
So, either
1- You're right and they knew they wouldn't get ANY useful data
2- They suspected deep problems (which ECU investigation would reveal) and chose to sweep it more under the rug
3- They're scared ECU forensics would show the cars were responsible, and it's CYA
I do NOT want any gub'ment getting their hands on data. But it seems Toyota wasn't (isn't) doing all they could to figure out the problems..
I agree it sounds strange that there was apparently only one laptop in the US with the necessary software to get the data. To me this says that the data is not all that useful to begin with, so it was never a priority for Toyota to have easy access to it. If Toyota lied about this, again, I think a whistle blower would have already come forward as Toyota USA has tens of thousands of employees.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 05, 2010, 10:14:48 AM
That argument would hold water if it weren't for the fact that other manufacturers are already making that data available. Some on request, Honda will do it on a court order. So it isn't as if they're setting a precedent that would suddenly change how accidents are viewed. If they release the data from those cars that allegedly took off out of control, either the data would be inconclusive, in which case they could at least get positive PR from the fact that they would appear to be co-operating rather than stonewalling or it would show that the driver was at fault or the car was at fault.
And that arguement only holds water if all the manufacturers are collecting the same data. If the domestics only collect data on vehicle speed and if an airbag deployed (and oh by the way the system only records if the airbag deploys) - then sure they will be open to sharing the information as it can't be used against them and its of little value in a civil trial as the police can already recreate your speed.
If any of the automakers have any data that is collected and could be used against them in a lawsuit - there would be no way in hell the company lawyers would ever open that up without absolutely being forced to. The same should be the case if your own ass is in court no matter how innocent or guilty you are.
I have yet to see anyone posting here to present a compelling argument as to why it's vital for Toyota, or any other automanufacturer for that matter, to willingly withhold the information.
If it shows nothing then let's see it and no harm done.
If the data is inconclusive then so be it, at least we exhausted a potential source of information.
If it shows the source of the problem we are all better off overall, even if one or more of the involved parties takes a hit.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 05, 2010, 11:41:46 AM
I have yet to see anyone posting here to present a compelling argument as to why it's vital for Toyota, or any other automanufacturer for that matter, to willingly withhold the information.
If it shows nothing then let's see it and no harm done.
If the data is inconclusive then so be it, at least we exhausted a potential source of information.
If it shows the source of the problem we are all better off overall, even if one or more of the involved parties takes a hit.
Will you not willingly withhold information if it could be used against you? Of course you will. The reasons for this are manifold; not only is it not your job to incriminate yourself, said information may actually be wrong and used wrongly against you. For example, you know not to admit fault at the scene of a traffic accident. Why? It may very well turn out you're not at fault after the investigation is completed, as determination of fault is not always so cut-n-dry in such matters.
As it pertains to the matter of law, which this issue has now de facto become, it is an inherently adversarial process for a reason: impartiality - those to stand in judgment must remain unbiased. If/when Toyota is required by law to provide said "data" it can be reasonably assured that it will be protected and otherwise kept out of the hands of partial parties and/or those unable to analyze it correctly.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 05, 2010, 12:19:03 PM
Will you not willingly withhold information if it could be used against you? Of course you will. The reasons for this are manifold; not only is it not your job to incriminate yourself, said information may actually be wrong and used wrongly against you. For example, you know not to admit fault at the scene of a traffic accident. Why? It may very well turn out you're not at fault after the investigation is completed, as determination of fault is not always so cut-n-dry in such matters.
One word: SUBPOENA
As it pertains to the matter of law, which this issue has now de facto become, it is an inherently adversarial process for a reason: impartiality - those to stand in judgment must remain unbiased. If/when Toyota is required by law to provide said "data" it can be reasonably assured that it will be protected and otherwise kept out of the hands of partial parties and/or those unable to analyze it correctly.
Protected if it involves trade secrets whose release to the public would harm Toyota's commercial position then yes the informationcould be held confidential. But if the information just showed that Toyota was negligent or willfully dishonest that in itself is not reason for the information to be held from the public. Or protected just becasue Toyota doesn't want dirty laundry shown in public; no way.
[/b]
Quote from: r0tor on March 05, 2010, 11:05:47 AM
And that arguement only holds water if all the manufacturers are collecting the same data. If the domestics only collect data on vehicle speed and if an airbag deployed (and oh by the way the system only records if the airbag deploys) - then sure they will be open to sharing the information as it can't be used against them and its of little value in a civil trial as the police can already recreate your speed.
If any of the automakers have any data that is collected and could be used against them in a lawsuit - there would be no way in hell the company lawyers would ever open that up without absolutely being forced to. The same should be the case if your own ass is in court no matter how innocent or guilty you are.
Very true. We don't know (or rather
I don't know) what information is being gathered. So we're left thinking that GM, Ford, Chrysler and Nissan (manufacturers specifically named in the article) are collecting data that can't be useful against them in a court, while Toyota has given confusing and contradictory details as to what its information contains.
Either way, it looks like stonewalling. If it were industry standard to never give out that information, then fine, it's protected or whatever, but it's not a standard. So why are they blocking it?
Of course, I'm operating under the assumption that Toyota is innocent and it's not a mechanical defect. If that's not the case, then I'm not supportive of them hiding information that may indicate they're culpable.
Quote from: Tave on March 05, 2010, 07:19:38 AM
You'd rather get burned because the jury thinks the other guy is a nicer person or because you looked at #6 the wrong way?
OH NOES THEY MIGHT USE OBJECTIVE DATA TO FIGURE OUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. THE HORROR, THE HORROR!
Man, you've been a law student for an hour and you're already down on juries?
Quote from: Jon? on March 05, 2010, 12:46:04 PM
Either way, it looks like stonewalling. If it were industry standard to never give out that information, then fine, it's protected or whatever, but it's not a standard. So why are they blocking it?
Toyota has been "hiding" the information now for 10 years - thats their standard. The EDR's are not a standard design and the way they are used are also not a standard way.
This is not like Toyota just came out of the blue and said "hey we are suddenly going to restrict access to these things." This has been their standard practice from the beginning.
Quote from: r0tor on March 06, 2010, 01:35:48 PM
hiding possible manufacturing accidents This has been their standard practice from the beginning.
Saw on the new today a guy in a Prius in California couldn't stop the cr. He reached speeds of 94 MPH. Called 911 and after repeadedly pressing the stop button the engine finally shut off and a trooper positioned his car on the speeding Prius' front bumper and brought the cr to a halt. In the interview the driver seemed to know what he was doing (not standing on the gas wondering why the car didn't stop). He also said he didn't have a floor mat problem at the time. Toyota is dispatching a field tech to check the vehicle.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 09, 2010, 06:14:17 AM
Saw on the new today a guy in a Prius in California couldn't stop the cr. He reached speeds of 94 MPH. Called 911 and after repeadedly pressing the stop button the engine finally shut off and a trooper positioned his car on the speeding Prius' front bumper and brought the cr to a halt. In the interview the driver seemed to know what he was doing (not standing on the gas wondering why the car didn't stop). He also said he didn't have a floor mat problem at the time. Toyota is dispatching a field tech to check the vehicle.
Sounds like another biased driver...
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss
How the funk do these drivers have the "mindset" that once their car is out of control to CALL THE POLICE ON A CELL PHONE AT 90+ MPH rather then put the f'in car in neutral? How does a police officer think of applying the brake and e-brake and pulling in front of a car is better then putting the car in neutral?
I'm beginning to think this whole thing is just a good healthy Darwin cleansing...
Quote from: r0tor on March 09, 2010, 06:25:08 AM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss
How the funk do these drivers have the "mindset" that once their car is out of control to CALL THE POLICE ON A CELL PHONE AT 90+ MPH rather then put the f'in car in neutral? How does a police officer think of applying the brake and e-brake and pulling in front of a car is better then putting the car in neutral?
I'm beginning to think this whole thing is just a good healthy Darwin cleansing...
+1
"the officer speculated that Sikes feared losing the car's power steering."
Idiot. Good cars have speed-variable-assist power steering anyway- there is NO NEED for power steering at freeway speeds.
Let's see- harder steering vs. your life....
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 09, 2010, 06:14:17 AM
Saw on the new today a guy in a Prius in California couldn't stop the cr. He reached speeds of 94 MPH. Called 911 and after repeadedly pressing the stop button the engine finally shut off and a trooper positioned his car on the speeding Prius' front bumper and brought the cr to a halt. In the interview the driver seemed to know what he was doing (not standing on the gas wondering why the car didn't stop). He also said he didn't have a floor mat problem at the time. Toyota is dispatching a field tech to check the vehicle.
A Little more detail in this article...
Toyota Prius with stuck accelerator glides to safe stop (http://detnews.com/article/20100309/AUTO01/3090388/1148/auto01/Toyota-Prius-with-stuck-accelerator-glides-to-safe-stop)
"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny ... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference.
"As it was going, I was trying the brakes ... it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard.
A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.
"They also got it going on a steep upgrade," said Officer Jesse Udovich. "Between those three things, they got it to slow down."
After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Not until there is actual proof of what happened can I entertain anything to the contrary of, "stupid drivers."
Poor driver education FTW.
Quote from: r0tor on March 09, 2010, 06:25:08 AM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss
How the funk do these drivers have the "mindset" that once their car is out of control to CALL THE POLICE ON A CELL PHONE AT 90+ MPH rather then put the f'in car in neutral? How does a police officer think of applying the brake and e-brake and pulling in front of a car is better then putting the car in neutral?
I'm beginning to think this whole thing is just a good healthy Darwin cleansing...
It's laughably bad. That the driver couldn't figure out after all that time to turn his car off speaks volumes for this entire Toyota affair.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say this was some kind of negative PR stunt...
Why wait until 50 MPH? Bahahaha.
The biggest issue seems to be a misunderstanding of what the emergency brake is and does. It's not as if it will somehow stop the car if you've burned through your brake pads or lost vacuum assist. Additional use of the phrase "parking brake" will hopefully make a dent in this misconception.
The e-brake is an extremely weak brake. Try engaging it at even 25 mph with a closed throttle and see how long it takes to stop the car.
I again point to the recent C&D article whereby they tested the braking power of a V6 Camry at WOT at 70 mph. It added just ~16 feet to the stopping distance. suffice it to say a V6 Camry has twice the power and some 500+ lbs WRT to a Prius.
Quote from: Submariner on March 09, 2010, 08:07:38 AM
If I didn't know any better, I'd say this was some kind of negative PR stunt...
Completely agreed
Quote from: GoCougs on March 09, 2010, 08:22:48 AM
The e-brake is an extremely weak brake. Try engaging it at even 25 mph with a closed throttle and see how long it takes to stop the car.
Hell, most you have to yank as hard as you can just to keep your car from rolling down a hill once you parked...
A modern Toyota driver purchased his/her car because they wanted something utterly mindless. No thinking would be needed about reliability, ease of use, or operation -- everything is straight forward. If you want an involving car with a Toyota engine, you buy a Lotus.
So I don't necessarily blame these people. We've let driving become a passive experience in the US. We let people get away with lousy drivers' training, and we let people get cars that you can steer with one finger and don't have to worry about something ever making a funny noise when it goes wrong, forcing you to have to think on your feet.
So when a Toyota becomes an "active" driving experience because of some kind of mishap, there are bound to be tons of bewildered people who would have no idea how to control their cars. If this whole thing were to have happened even to Mazdas versus Toyotas, I doubt it would have gotten this big.
Quote from: the Teuton on March 09, 2010, 08:28:08 AM
A modern Toyota driver purchased his/her car because they wanted something utterly mindless. No thinking would be needed about reliability, ease of use, or operation -- everything is straight forward. If you want an involving car with a Toyota engine, you buy a Lotus.
So I don't necessarily blame these people. We've let driving become a passive experience in the US. We let people get away with lousy drivers' training, and we let people get cars that you can steer with one finger and don't have to worry about something ever making a funny noise when it goes wrong, forcing you to have to think on your feet.
So when a Toyota becomes an "active" driving experience because of some kind of mishap, there are bound to be tons of bewildered people who would have no idea how to control their cars. If this whole thing were to have happened even to Mazdas versus Toyotas, I doubt it would have gotten this big.
Very good point.
Over the years people have been nannied to death.
The complete story is below. So do any of you really believe this driver kept his foot on the gas for 30 miles and didn't know it? Or tht he was was wrong and the floormat was pushed up against the gas pedal? Watching an interview with the guy this morning he stated he repeatedly pushed and held down the stop button and it did nothing.
And BTW, a properly adjusted parking brake will lock the rear wheels at speed if your foot is off the gas. I've practiced bootleg turns in different cars at 30-40 MPH and the parking brake was able to lock the rear wheels.
Prius Problem Exposes Toyota's Bigger Headache
Published: Tuesday, 9 Mar 2010 | 10:42 AM ET Text Size By: Phil LeBeau
CNBC Correspondent
By now, most of you have either read about or watched TV reports about a man in California who says his 2008 Prius raced out of control for more than 30 miles on the highway.
His story is a scary one in which he says the car kept speeding up even as he hit the brake.
It wasn't until a California Highway Patrol officer caught beside him and yelled over the squad cars PA system to use the emergency brake that the driver could get the Prius to slow down to 50 MPH where the driver then could turn the car off and safely bring it to a stop.
The driver says he checked the floor mat (the '08 Prius is part of the floor mat recall) and that wasn't the problem. The Highway patrol officer says he could see the brake lights of the Prius were on and he could smell the brakes as he approached the car after it stopped.
There in a nutshell are the facts as we know them.
While Toyota [TM 76.87 -1.07 (-1.37%) ] and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are investigating the car and the incident, the real problem for Toyota is that this incident raises new questions about the company.
Specifically, people are asking if this case shows Toyota has a bigger problem with its cars?
Yes, I know that there are people who will be skeptical of the Prius driver's story. Just as there are others who are convinced this is one more case of Toyota vehicles have a serious problem with their electronics. But it's the big group in between who are going to hear this story and say, "Hmmm, what's going on?" They may not make up their minds either way, but this has created enough uncertainty to make them think twice before driving or buying a Toyota. As a friend of mine who has been a happy and loyal Toyota owner told me this morning, "I now find myself taking my foot off the gas on the highway every so often just to see how the car will react."
The runaway Prius in California may not have hit other cars and nobody was injured, but Toyota will suffer because it will keep the public asking, "Do they know everything that's wrong with these cars?"
On a day when Toyota showed a technical demonstration refuting allegations that it may have flaws in its electronics, one incident on a California highway has blown coverage of the technical display completely out of the water.
Instead of things returning to normal, Toyota once again finds itself defending the safety of its vehicles.
It's not that we're doubting the throttle malfunction - we're labeling him as an idiot.
Note that he had to decelerate below 50mph in order to shut the engine off. Is this due to design? That would sort of foil the concept of merely shutting a car down in case of uncontrollable acceleration.
Also makes me glad to have a nice, old-fashioned key and lock cylinder in my car...
Still having a real problem with the story; 30 miles at WOT and managed to avoid traffic, curves, and other obstacles? Plus the throttle system in the Prius is completely different than that in the Camry and other vehicles supposedly with the problem.
Given the unparalleled PR blitz, the ridiculous floor mat "solution," inconsistencies in the accounts, and natural bias and general ignorance of the public of things automotive, wow will I ever need to see substantial proof that blames the car.
Quote from: R-inge on March 09, 2010, 10:47:20 AM
Note that he had to decelerate below 50mph in order to shut the engine off. Is this due to design? That would sort of foil the concept of merely shutting a car down in case of uncontrollable acceleration.
Also makes me glad to have a nice, old-fashioned key and lock cylinder in my car...
Ain't technology wonderful? :lol:
"Open the pod bay doors, HAL."
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Discovery1b.JPG)
I am very skeptical of the validity of the incident. Even having the brake lights on doesn't really mean a thing since I've seen a lot of drivers at that age drive with both feet as they are taught that braking with the left foot makes the car stops faster. So a lot of times, you'll find these people riding their brakes and accelerating away with the brake lights on.
Plus, if this is such a huge problem, why are we only hearing about it after the recall happens, and this is with the older Prius model too, not the current models out today.
Quote from: R-inge on March 09, 2010, 10:47:20 AM
Note that he had to decelerate below 50mph in order to shut the engine off. Is this due to design? That would sort of foil the concept of merely shutting a car down in case of uncontrollable acceleration.
Also makes me glad to have a nice, old-fashioned key and lock cylinder in my car...
no where do i see "had to"...
It doesn't say whether he tried to shift into neutral. Although he stated holding the button down didn't help, I wonder if he held it down long enough. I expect that when you're panicking, 1 second could feel like 3 seconds.
Whether the guy followed the appropriate procedures or not, it's still a big hit to Toyota. The news stations have been talking about it all day.
if the news stations actually wanted to help people, they would say "put the damn thing in neutral" during every story about toyota gas pedals "sticking"... but nope, that wouldn't make news
Well apparently there is another recall about to be issued for the Prius model for "pedal entrapment"; basically another floor mat recall. Having managed to jam a pedal under the carpeted mat the other day I am thinking this could be a valid problem. Maybe that's what was discovered in this case as well?
I can see accidentally pushing the accelerator in a parking lot and running into something, like some of the previous unintended acceleration claims, but this incident happened on a freeway for an extended period of time. You think this guy accidentally floored the accelerator for twenty minutes, while calling 911 and standing on the brakes?
Also, on a Prius with keyless igntion, don't you have to hold in the button for several seconds to turn the car off if it is moving? It's entirely possible he wasn't aware of that and didn't hold the button down long enough to stop the car. Yes, he should have shifted into neutral; that doesn't mean it's OK for the car to continue accelerating with no throttle input.
Edit: This story on LeftLaneNews (http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-prius-unintended-acceleration-san-diego.html) says that the driver couldn't shift into neutral for some reason. It's possible since the shifter is electronic, the ECU wouldn't allow it. Or maybe since the shifter in a Prius is weird, the driver just couldn't figure out how to put it in neutral. The commenters there claim that a number of the NHTSA complaints mention an inability to shift into neutral, so maybe it is an electronics issue with these cars.
I don't think it happened.
- The E-brake at 90MPH may not even work.
- Don't those lock the rear wheels? That could cause him to spin out.
- The Prius has like 110HP. The brakes probably could have overpowered the engine.
- Why would the accelerator "jump-up"? It isn't connected to anything.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 09, 2010, 04:30:28 PM
I don't think it happened.
- The E-brake at 90MPH may not even work.
- Don't those lock the rear wheels? That could cause him to spin out.
- The Prius has like 110HP. The brakes probably could have overpowered the engine.
- Why would the accelerator "jump-up"? It isn't connected to anything.
On VWs if you push on the e-brake button at speeds (over 20km/h I think) an alarm chime will sound. If you continue to hold down the button the system will haul the vehicle to a stop (using the conventional brakes if still in working order) in a controlled fashion while turning on the hazard lights.
I am assuming other auto makers use a similar routine.
i remember 2 or 3 years ago having a V6 camry rental and beating the piss out of it... including slipping it into neutral and revving the shit out of it while i was doing like 60mph mocking a mustang
i dont but the "oh it wouldn't go into neutral" argument for a second
Quote from: r0tor on March 09, 2010, 06:42:41 PM
i remember 2 or 3 years ago having a V6 camry rental and beating the piss out of it... including slipping it into neutral and revving the shit out of it while i was doing like 60mph mocking a mustang
i dont but the "oh it wouldn't go into neutral" argument for a second
Just becasue you could do that with one model of one year doesn't mean every car is like that. I've been told the Prius transmission selector is simply little more than an electrical switch. There is no direct connection to the transmission. You force the selector into neutral at speed and the car's electronic brain then decides if it will comply.
I'm going to have to try this out the next time I see the rental Prius.
Some posts elsewhere claim that the Prius will not turn off or allow you to shift into neutral above 5000 rpm. As ETypeJohn said, the shifter in the Prius is electronic so you can only shift into neutral if the computer allows it.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 09, 2010, 05:00:42 PM
On VWs if you push on the e-brake button at speeds (over 20km/h I think) an alarm chime will sound. If you continue to hold down the button the system will haul the vehicle to a stop (using the conventional brakes if still in working order) in a controlled fashion while turning on the hazard lights.
I am assuming other auto makers use a similar routine.
Well, most automakers don't have an electronic e-brake. That is a nice system though.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 09, 2010, 07:51:10 PM
You force the selector into neutral at speed and the car's electronic brain then decides if it will comply.
No it doesn't decide, it does what its programmed to do every time.
Quote from: afty on March 09, 2010, 10:39:59 PM
Some posts elsewhere claim that the Prius will not turn off or allow you to shift into neutral above 5000 rpm. As ETypeJohn said, the shifter in the Prius is electronic so you can only shift into neutral if the computer allows it.
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/77465-feds-probe-cause-runaway-prius-in-california-4.html#post1081266
QuoteBy now, if you own a Prius, and don't know and understand how to safely shut down the car in an emergency, you should not be driving a Prius or any other car, for that matter.
I tried out the suggested procedure for Prius shut down. It's easy and it works. With the go pedal mashed to the floor, if you hit neutral the engine shuts off. Power steering and brakes worked fine and the car came to a stop without any flip overs or other drama.
So, in order to shut off a "runaway" Prius... brakes, push the little shift lever to neutral and then pull over to a stop in a safe place. Push the park button and then the power button, just in case your Prius gets the itch to take off again. There's also a parking brake that can be set.
In light of the constant barage of "allegations" in the news, everyone that drives a Prius should know how to bring a Prius to a stop. Give it a try and practice the procedure on a safe stretch of road so in the unlikely event your Prius takes off on its own, you won't have to take the time to call 911 for instructions
nope...
also, this little gem from a link to a news story
that has since been taken down :mask:
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/77465-feds-probe-cause-runaway-prius-in-california.html#post1080887
QuoteSikes often didn't respond to the dispatcher's instructions during the call recorded Monday. The call included repeated pleas for Sikes to throw the car into neutral and turn off the ignition. Sikes tells the dispatcher, "My brakes are smelling. ... My brakes are burning."
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 05:50:13 AM
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/77465-feds-probe-cause-runaway-prius-in-california-4.html#post1081266
nope...
His assertion that the cruise may have been stuck in the 'increase speed' position makes him sound like an 'ID10T'. I've never had a cruise control that didn't shut off the moment you tapped the brake.
His claim about the car going into neutral sounds right though.
also...
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/77458-how-stop-runaway-prius.html#post1080582
QuoteThe fastest and easiest way is to press the "P" button. It's right in front of you, easy to see, easy to get at. If you are moving over about 2-3 MPH the car will go into "N". If you are not moving the car will lock the drive train.
The engine will drop to idle. BTW, -most- Prius will drop the engine to idle if you press hard enough on the brakes to light the brake lights. There is some indication that some don't do this, but that is to be tested.
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 05:41:02 AM
No it doesn't decide, it does what its programmed to do every time.
Not if the programming is flawed or the computer gets bad data.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 10, 2010, 06:12:18 AM
Not if the programming is flawed or the computer gets bad data.
Sort of like a driver who is repeatedly told to put his car in Neutral and he refuses?
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 06:13:07 AM
Sort of like a driver who is repeatedly told to put his car in Neutral and he refuses?
I am currently inclined to believe this most of these Toyota problems are the fault of the driver. I was just arguing against your allegations that computers act as one expects them to do.
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 05:41:02 AM
No it doesn't decide, it does what its programmed to do every time.
Provided it's all working as intended. And I think you know what I meant; the on board computer assesses various inputs and then makes a decision based on those inputs.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 10, 2010, 06:20:40 AM
I am currently inclined to believe this most of these Toyota problems are the fault of the driver. I was just arguing against your allegations that computers act as one expects them to do.
If computers worked like that all the time, I'd be out of a job...
I'll
Quote from: Jon™ on March 10, 2010, 06:32:49 AM
If computers worked like that all the time, I'd be out of a job...
nope, you always have humans to screw them up
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 06:37:22 AM
I'll
nope, you always have humans to screw them up
Ha! True. It's a growth industry.
I'm certain that business schools will be including the "Toyota Crisis" in their coursework for decades to come.
And...
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 10, 2010, 07:24:21 AM
I'm certain that business psychology schools will be including the "Toyota Crisis" in their coursework for decades to come.
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 06:13:07 AM
Sort of like a driver who is repeatedly told to put his car in Neutral and he refuses?
Just found this while reading the Prius forum
QuoteBTW: I just watched Mr. Sikes on NBC and he stated that he did not shift into N because he was afraid the car would flip . I've just scared my dogs because I was screaming at the TV.
:facepalm: especially after the 911 told him to do so, he still refuses? Dumbass, it's like the dumbass that would rather crash than damage the engine. :facepalm:
I'd put money on him faking the whole thing
Quote from: r0tor on March 10, 2010, 01:05:52 PM
I'd put money on him faking the whole thing
I got $1.
A prius against a stonewall in Westchester NY yesterday
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?template=zoom&Site=BH&Date=20100310&Category=NEWS02&ArtNo=3100340&Ref=AR
http://www.lohud.com/article/20100310/NEWS02/3100375
Quote from: SVT32V on March 10, 2010, 04:24:14 PM
A prius against a stonewall in Westchester NY yesterday
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?template=zoom&Site=BH&Date=20100310&Category=NEWS02&ArtNo=3100340&Ref=AR
http://www.lohud.com/article/20100310/NEWS02/3100375
Is it a coincidence that all these accidents started happening all of a sudden? Unintended acceleration my ass.. you can't even get the damn thing to accelerate fast enough even if your life depends on it..
Quote from: NomisR on March 10, 2010, 04:33:33 PM
Is it a coincidence that all these accidents started happening all of a sudden? Unintended acceleration my ass.. you can't even get the damn thing to accelerate fast enough even if your life depends on it..
When they've been ignoring them for the past 7 or 9 years, yes it would seem like they started happening all of a sudden :huh:.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 10, 2010, 04:38:40 PM
When they've been ignoring them for the past 7 or 9 years, yes it would seem like they started happening all of a sudden :huh:.
What benefit is it to Toyota to release a vehicle that they know that has a problem but not fix in subsequent models and just pretend it didn't happen? It does not make any sense at all. You do not carry over existing problems from old models especially if it something as damaging as this. And why is it only happening to people that seemingly knows nothing about cars, you have these vehicles being used as Taxis which can be said to be used in one of the harshest driving conditions, yet none of the same problems to be reported. Yet, in the hands of these people, it all seem to surface..
Just like how aliens seems to like to abduct country bumpkins.
Why doesn't Toyota just pay GM to put Onstar on all their cars? They can just use that stolen vehicle shutdown mode to stop all these runaways? Maybe they have a 'put it in neutral' service?
I don't think GM would be willing to license it, to be honest. It's sort of a distinct selling point really.
Quote from: R-inge on March 10, 2010, 07:55:22 PM
I don't think GM would be willing to license it, to be honest. It's sort of a distinct selling point really.
Just kidding actually.
Well, you may not know this but at one time you could buy other makes with Onstar, including Subarus. That is no longer the case of course.
Still not one shred of evidence.
I will say this, if the 9.4% chance that Toyota is to truly blame comes to fruition, it should pay dearly. I could possibly see it breaking the company, and least in the US.
More grist...
Ex-Toyota lawyer says documents prove company hid damaging information (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/10/toyota.whistleblower/index.html?hpt=T2)
Nothing particularly new but it could be a timebomb ticking for Toyota, especially if they don't address it in an open manner.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 06:25:20 AM
More grist...
Ex-Toyota lawyer says documents prove company hid damaging information (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/10/toyota.whistleblower/index.html?hpt=T2)
Nothing particularly new but it could be a timebomb ticking for Toyota, especially if they don't address it in an open manner.
At the very least that guy is not ever going to be lawyer again for a large corporation. I hope he enjoys dealing with people pursuing litigation because the branches from the neighbour's trees bother them.
At the worst he is going to be in trouble for stealing those documents, or not destroying them when the stopped working for Toyota.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 11, 2010, 06:53:38 AM
At the very least that guy is not ever going to be lawyer again for a large corporation. I hope he enjoys dealing with people pursuing litigation because the branches from the neighbour's trees bother them.
At the worst he is going to be in trouble for stealing those documents, or not destroying them when the stopped working for Toyota.
I'm not sure if there is something regarding the "whistleblower" legislation that would protect him especially if he suspected "criminal" behaviour.
I think this has, to borrow a word from another thread, gone beyond 'supercritical' & spun totally outside of Toyota's ability to control it.
We are now in the realm beyond the merits of the case against Toyota, where logic, proof, substance & reason have no place. Toyota has no friends, particularly in Washington DC, zillions of lawsuits are being filed, the media bandwagon is rolling and the wood is being piled around the stake at which Toyota will be burned.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
I'm not sure if there is something regarding the "whistleblower" legislation that would protect him especially if he suspected "criminal" behaviour.
At some point in these 14 pages, someone wondered why if there were truly issues there were no whistle-blowers. Maybe this is the first?
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 11, 2010, 08:46:39 AM
I think this has, to borrow a word from another thread, gone beyond 'supercritical' & spun totally outside of Toyota's ability to control it.
We are now in the realm beyond the merits of the case against Toyota, where logic, proof, substance & reason have no place. Toyota has no friends, particularly in Washington DC, zillions of lawsuits are being filed, the media bandwagon is rolling and the wood is being piled around the stake at which Toyota will be burned.
Add to it now toyota owners filing class action lawsuits against toyota for loss of resale value... which is in itself pretty comical since its not toyota that hosed their resale value but the news media and government (who will of course remain unscathed from all of this in typical modern day blow every little thing completely out of proportion style)
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
I'm not sure if there is something regarding the "whistleblower" legislation that would protect him especially if he suspected "criminal" behaviour.
He may be protected from civil action by Toyota, but no law can compell other employers to hire him. With a $4MM severence package he'll probably (or at least should) manage.
I admit I had to laugh at the emo portion; the implication that there
may be evidence that Toyota was hiding that showed the '97 Camry was unable to "properly" protect someone in a rollover is simply a joke.
As I alluded to earlier, EVERY large corporation has all sorts of legal wranglings from consumers of its products. Other automakers, or makers of just about anything else, are no different. Toyota is just getting focus.
As to this particular lawyer, I see a guy who couldn't stomache being a corporate lawyer and cracked under the pressue. I can only imagine there is criminal prosecution and a lost law license in his near future.
So when will it get to a point that cars are essentially Pelosi-mobiles that lack style and are simply there to deliver you to your destination in complete, idiot-proof safety?
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 09:11:04 AM
Add to it now toyota owners filing class action lawsuits against toyota for loss of resale value...
If that were the case every domestic car owner could sue for their fleet sales killing their used car prices.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 11, 2010, 08:56:25 AM
At some point in these 14 pages, someone wondered why if there were truly issues there were no whistle-blowers. Maybe this is the first?
Nowhere in the article is it stated that there is proof that Toyota failed to comply with discovery during litigation or is hiding damaging information. At best it is stated that there are these "Books of Knowledge" and some people are bent that Toyota has been successful at keeping them secret.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 11, 2010, 09:17:19 AM
He may be protected from civil action by Toyota, but no law can compell other employers to hire him. With a $4MM severence package he'll probably (or at least should) manage.
I admit I had to laugh at the emo portion; the implication that there may be evidence that Toyota was hiding that showed the '97 Camry was unable to "properly" protect someone in a rollover is simply a joke.
As I alluded to earlier, EVERY large corporation has all sorts of legal wranglings from consumers of its products. Other automakers, or makers of just about anything else, are no different. Toyota is just getting focus.
As to this particular lawyer, I see a guy who couldn't stomache being a corporate lawyer and cracked under the pressue. I can only imagine there is criminal prosecution and a lost law license in his near future.
It's hard to say how it will play out at this point. I believe this guy has been mentioned before but not quite so prominantly. However, if he quit because he cracked under the pressure, I don't see him pursuing this sort of mission. I expect the pressure is at least ten-fold. He could have put his $4 million in and bank and spent his days relaxing in the sun.
I agree that every other (large) auto manufacturer has gone through this before; Ford/Firestone formerly being the most notorious. As well, I expect every manufacturer is presently undergoing some litigation, weak roofs, fires, piston-slap, unintended accelleration, etc., etc. Although it seems (almost) unfair to put a specific manufacturer under the spotlight and watch them sweat, it's Toyota's turn; partly because they've got problems which outnumber the problems of other manufacturers but, primarily, because of the way they've handled it as well as other problems in the past.
Most manufacturers, especially those stung badly, have learned to be more preemptive in handling reported problems. Toyota has shown now, and in the past, that they don't want to accept any blame and try to divert it either to the customer or to the parts manufacturer. They are far too concerned with their image and don't want to have it tarnished as it is this perception of quality and dependability that is their main sales feature. This policy of avoidance, diversion and whining has now cost them dearly.
I can't agree with you there, man. They just recalled a gigantic portion of their model lines, and even suspended shipment to dealers for a time. On top of that, Toyota has issued press release after press release addressing the situation, if anything probably overstating the scope of its severity.
I don't know how they could be any more proactive at this point short of beheading upper-management on national television. :huh:
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 10:17:36 AM
It's hard to say how it will play out at this point. I believe this guy has been mentioned before but not quite so prominantly. However, if he quit because he cracked under the pressure, I don't see him pursuing this sort of mission. I expect the pressure is at least ten-fold. He could have put his $4 million in and bank and spent his days relaxing in the sun.
I agree that every other (large) auto manufacturer has gone through this before; Ford/Firestone formerly being the most notorious. As well, I expect every manufacturer is presently undergoing some litigation, weak roofs, fires, piston-slap, unintended accelleration, etc., etc. Although it seems (almost) unfair to put a specific manufacturer under the spotlight and watch them sweat, it's Toyota's turn; partly because they've got problems which outnumber the problems of other manufacturers but, primarily, because of the way they've handled it as well as other problems in the past.
Most manufacturers, especially those stung badly, have learned to be more preemptive in handling reported problems. Toyota has shown now, and in the past, that they don't want to accept any blame and try to divert it either to the customer or to the parts manufacturer. They are far too concerned with their image and don't want to have it tarnished as it is this perception of quality and dependability that is their main sales feature. This policy of avoidance, diversion and whining has now cost them dearly.
I tend to agree that Toyota isn't handling it too well from a PR POV. However, I agree with their unspoken position: there is no data, research or testing that shows our product has any problems; whether that source is us or ANYONE else ANYWHERE.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 10:17:36 AM
the way they've handled it
Exactly- they said
-there is a problem and we're rushing to fix it voluntarily (oops, turns out later the NHTSA was forcing them)
-the problem is fixed
-Oops! It wasn't floormats!
-we know what the problem is and we'll fix it
-the problem is fixed
-no there aren't other problems
-well, the gas pedal MIGHT have fixed it
-we don't know what's going on, but it's not our fault
Quote from: Tave on March 11, 2010, 10:30:05 AM
I can't agree with you there, man. They just recalled a gigantic portion of their model lines, and even suspended shipment to dealers for a time. On top of that, Toyota has issued press release after press release addressing the situation, if anything probably overstating the scope of its severity.
I don't know how they could be any more proactive at this point short of beheading upper-management on national television. :huh:
There where allegations that Toyota recieved reports about the problem (in Europe I think) more then a year in advance and failed to notify the NHTSA, even when asked directly if they knew about the problem.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 11, 2010, 10:31:46 AM
I tend to agree that Toyota isn't handling it too well from a PR POV. However, I agree with their unspoken position: there is no data, research or testing that shows our product has any problems; whether that source is us or ANYONE else ANYWHERE.
What data have they released?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 11, 2010, 10:31:46 AM
I tend to agree that Toyota isn't handling it too well from a PR POV. However, I agree with their unspoken position: there is no data, research or testing that shows our product has any problems; whether that source is us or ANYONE else ANYWHERE.
...and with that attitude even with a inkling of proof that they have been withholding data, they'll get crucified. Their best bet would be to open up all their secret data to public scrutiny.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 11, 2010, 10:55:12 AM
Exactly- they said
-there is a problem and we're rushing to fix it voluntarily (oops, turns out later the NHTSA was forcing them)
-the problem is fixed
-Oops! It wasn't floormats!
-we know what the problem is and we'll fix it
-the problem is fixed
-no there aren't other problems
-well, the gas pedal MIGHT have fixed it
-we don't know what's going on, but it's not our fault
In a way, this is a no win situation because they're forced to fix a problem when no known causes are found at the time, which makes them look even worse in the long run.
Quote from: Tave on March 11, 2010, 10:30:05 AM
I can't agree with you there, man. They just recalled a gigantic portion of their model lines, and even suspended shipment to dealers for a time. On top of that, Toyota has issued press release after press release addressing the situation, if anything probably overstating the scope of its severity.
I don't know how they could be any more proactive at this point short of beheading upper-management on national television. :huh:
Certainly they responded when they were forced to. Perhaps they even overreacted. However, the fact that the problems continue, even after recalls have been done, suggest that they are not addressing the real problem. It may be a situation of "damned if they do and damned if they don't" but when people are dying in out-of-control Toyotas, there's going to be a huge amount of scrutiny. Because Akio Toyoda repeatedly expresses that he is "deeply sorry" but doesn't release all the data, there is a problem.
Quote from: NomisR on March 11, 2010, 10:58:40 AM
In a way, this is a no win situation because they're forced to fix a problem when no known causes are found at the time, which makes them look even worse in the long run.
Their alternative, if they can't pin down an electronic fault, is to dumb down the cars. Toyota seems to have been obsessed with their quest for the greatest amount of {i}ntelligence possible in as many aspects of their vehicles as possible. They may have carried it a couple of steps too far. Other manufacturers have experienced this as well, Audi a few years back I believe. They couldn't find anything wrong but it just didn't work sometimes. Toyota have to lay out everything they have in their secret data bank and hope there is nothing incriminating there.
And you have the media trying to dramatize situations which does not help at all
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_recall_abc
Quote2-second video causes headache for ABC News
Buzz up!362 votes
SendSharePrint
AP ? FILE - In this Jan. 26, 2010 photo, a 2010 Toyota Corolla is shown at Toyota dealership in San Francisco. ?
Play VideoVideo:Feds probe Toyota Prius crash in NYC suburb AP
Play VideoVideo:Prius 911 Call: "My car won't slow down" AP
Play VideoVideo:Runaway Prius in California Reuters
By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer ? Thu Mar 11, 6:29 am ET
NEW YORK ? For the want of a better two-second picture of a tachometer, ABC News has called into question its reporting on acceleration problems with Toyota vehicles.
The network's handling of a Feb. 22 "World News" story about potential problems with computer systems in Toyotas has created ethical questions and intensified bitter feelings the besieged automaker already had toward ABC.
ABC has admitted to a misjudgment and swapped out the brief dashboard video in its report, which continues to be available online. Its story illustrated a report by David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University professor who suggested that a design flaw in Toyotas might leave a short-circuit that could cause sudden acceleration undetected by the car's computer system.
Correspondent Brian Ross' "World News" report showed him driving a Toyota with Gilbert that was rigged to quickly accelerate. Even though he knew it was coming, Ross said the incident left him shaken, and he had a hard time getting the car to come to a stop.
Briefly during the drive, ABC cut to a picture of a tachometer with the needle zooming forward. The impression was that the tachometer was documenting the ride Ross was taking. Instead, that picture was taken from a separate instance where a short-circuit was induced in a parked car.
ABC said that editing was done because it was impossible to get a good picture of the tachometer while the car was moving because the camera was shaking. The camera shot was steady when it was taken in a parked car.
"The tachometer showed the same thing every time," said ABC News spokeswoman Emily Lenzner.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson disputes that, saying tachometers react much more dramatically when short-circuits happen in a parked car than a car that is moving. Tachometers measure engine speed.
It all points to problems that are created when visual journalists try to alter reality in order to get a better picture.
"Anytime you give the audience any reason to doubt the honesty of the piece, that's a serious problem," said Charlotte Grimes, a Syracuse University journalism professor who specializes in ethical issues.
"Do they honestly think that a company like Toyota, with all the resources that it has, would not be looking at these things?" Grimes asked.
Toyota recognized the differences right away: the shot showed the car's speedometer was at zero, the parking brake was on and no one was using the seat belts ? while Ross wore one on the test drive, Hanson said. Online discussion of the differences began almost immediately, and the Web site Gawker.com wrote about it last week.
ABC edited the online version of its story shortly after that story appeared and wrote a note on its Web site explaining why.
"This was a misjudgment made in the editing room," Lenzner said. "They should have left the shaky shot in. But I want to make clear that the two-second shot that was used did not change the outcome of the report in any way."
The inserted tachometer shot still didn't specifically illustrate Ross' ride. It was from another ride made in order to create different camera angles. A camera person could not have captured the tachometer shot with Ross and Gilbert both in the car, Lenzner said.
Toyota's Hanson said it was next to impossible for the short circuit detailed by Gilbert to happen in real life. The automaker, which had to recall many of its cars because of problems associated with a depressed gas pedal, held a news conference on Monday to try and refute Gilbert's study. It depicted similar short circuits in other cars, none of which were detected by the vehicles' computer system.
Gilbert did not return phone or e-mail messages for comment, and a woman who answered the phone at his home said he was unavailable.
Hanson said he wished Toyota could have been invited to see the simulation conducted by ABC. "Simulation" is a word that brings back tough memories for TV networks: NBC's news president lost his job in 1993 after it was revealed that for a "Dateline NBC" study about alleged safety problems with General Motors trucks, the network rigged a truck with small explosives for a story. Lenzner said it was ridiculous to compare a two-second tachometer shot to the NBC case.
She said Toyota was given a chance to comment on the story the day it was aired.
"It was not like ABC was trying to alter the footage," she said. "There was no staging. There was no dramatization. It was an editing mistake."
Even before this report, relations between Toyota and ABC were on edge. More than 100 Toyota dealerships in the Southeast had agreed last month to pull advertising on local ABC affiliated because they were angry with Ross' aggressive reporting on the automaker's problems.
___
ABC is owned by The Walt Disney Co
And this isn't the first time media outlets has done it. We have the whole Audi debacle by CBS which all turned out to be fake, and then you have the GM Truck with NBC, and of course this Toyota thing with ABC.
Seriously, are any of our media outlets trust worthy anymore?
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 11:06:40 AM
Certainly they responded when they were forced to. Perhaps they even overreacted. However, the fact that the problems continue, even after recalls have been done, suggest that they are not addressing the real problem. It may be a situation of "damned if they do and damned if they don't" but when people are dying in out-of-control Toyotas, there's going to be a huge amount of scrutiny. Because Akio Toyoda repeatedly expresses that he is "deeply sorry" but doesn't release all the data, there is a problem.
The thing is, most are not dying in out of controlled Toyotas. You still have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than getting into an uncontrollable Toyota. And there is still no proof of Toyota being at fault for any of this.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 11:12:00 AM
Their alternative, if they can't pin down an electronic fault, is to dumb down the cars. Toyota seems to have been obsessed with their quest for the greatest amount of {i}ntelligence possible in as many aspects of their vehicles as possible. They may have carried it a couple of steps too far. Other manufacturers have experienced this as well, Audi a few years back I believe. They couldn't find anything wrong but it just didn't work sometimes. Toyota have to lay out everything they have in their secret data bank and hope there is nothing incriminating there.
There's not a lot that Toyota can actually do, even if they give all the data they've accumulated, even if it proves that they're not at fault, with the way the internet works today, it can still damage them as the data can be wrongly interpreted by the layman to show otherwise. And we're have a lot of those conspiracy videos popup on YouTube showing how Toyota is at fault and hiding things even if they're not.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 10:57:44 AM
...and with that attitude even with a inkling of proof that they have been withholding data, they'll get crucified. Their best bet would be to open up all their secret data to public scrutiny.
In the short term, and in the court of public opinion, Toyota
probably will get is getting crucified. However, those familiar with law or business world in general know that Toyota won't dare ever open its books of its own free will; no company would. EVER. For all sorts of reasons.
In the long term the best bet is to stand behind one's product. One may take some signficant short term punishment by ultimately stating "there is no problem, now go away" but as we've seen here Toyota tried to play along, beginning with the ridiculous floor mat recall. And now look what it's ballooned into.
In the end, the product will speak for itself. If there's a problem, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE outside Toyota will prove it. That it hasn't been done so thus far is speaking volumes.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 11, 2010, 11:57:38 AM
In the short term, and in the court of public opinion, Toyota probably will get is getting crucified. However, those familiar with law or business world in general know that Toyota won't dare ever open its books of its own free will; no company would. EVER. For all sorts of reasons.
In the long term the best bet is to stand behind one's product. One may take some signficant short term punishment by ultimately stating "there is no problem, now go away" but as we've seen here Toyota tried to play along, beginning with the ridiculous floor mat recall. And now look what it's ballooned into.
In the end, the product will speak for itself. If there's a problem, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE outside Toyota will prove it. That it hasn't been done so thus far is speaking volumes.
But according to ABC, someone proved that a short circuit can cause that.. :rolleyes:
Just like how CBS proved that Audis accelerated by themselves too.
Quote from: NomisR on March 11, 2010, 10:58:40 AM
In a way, this is a no win situation because they're forced to fix a problem when no known causes are found at the time, which makes them look even worse in the long run.
Fixing a problem that really doesn't exist is always fun...
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 12:30:56 PM
Fixing a problem that really doesn't exist is always fun...
So what was the issue with the guy in CA?
Quote from: Jon™ on March 11, 2010, 12:42:58 PM
So what was the issue with the guy in CA?
Darwin
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
Darwin
Heh, okay, that's one explanation. But if he had been two footing the brake to the floor all indications are, mechanically, that should have brought the car to a halt, even had he been stomping on the gas simultaneously. Why was the vehicle doing 94 when he clearly didn't want it to? Do we think he never let up on the gas, during the whole 911 call?
Quote from: Jon? on March 11, 2010, 12:42:58 PM
So what was the issue with the guy in CA?
"If there's no proof, it doesn't exist." -GoCougs
Generally speaking, none of these so-called unintended acceleration complaints have any proof whatsoever.
Specifically speaking, 99.99% chance he was either stupid or a liar.
Quote from: Jon? on March 11, 2010, 12:52:24 PM
Heh, okay, that's one explanation. But if he had been two footing the brake to the floor all indications are, mechanically, that should have brought the car to a halt, even had he been stomping on the gas simultaneously. Why was the vehicle doing 94 when he clearly didn't want it to? Do we think he never let up on the gas, during the whole 911 call?
If I were out of control at 94mph, calling 911 would be the last of my thoughts with the list of options of...
- First jab the gas to see if it gets unstuck
- Second put car in neutral
- Third apply brakes HARD
- Forth shut car off
- Fifth downshift tranny to slow down car and/or blow up engine
- Sixth select Park and try to destroy tranny and engine
- Seventh call cops
But of course in this guys own words "I was worried about the car flipping if i shifted to neutral". Instead, he's yacking on a cell phone at 94mph :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jon? on March 11, 2010, 12:52:24 PM
Heh, okay, that's one explanation. But if he had been two footing the brake to the floor all indications are, mechanically, that should have brought the car to a halt, even had he been stomping on the gas simultaneously. Why was the vehicle doing 94 when he clearly didn't want it to? Do we think he never let up on the gas, during the whole 911 call?
First of all, think about this.. this is a Prius.. even at WOT, it should not overpower the engine.
2nd, applying the brakes on the car should by design cut the cut the ICE, and put the car in regenerative mode, unless the guy was riding the brakes to simulate that he was attempting to slow the car down, which is what it looks like.
3rd. Why did the guy refuse to put the car into neutral even though he was instructed to? Fear of car flipping over does not explain things because that DOES NOT happen.
The whole thing is just fishy and extremely coincidental. The guy seems like he's out for publicity and a quick buck.
My guess is that, as irrational as it is, people don't want to "damage" their cars by doing things like panic braking while accelerating (smelling the brake pads) or shifting into neutral at speed (hearing the engine rev). The mainstream public have no idea how cars work and have no experience outside the comfort zone of daily commuting. What percentage of people have ever actually braked at 100% or shifted into neutral while driving? I've ridden with people in my car who think "the engine is going to blow" when I rev above 5000 rpm. It's all about people's driving experience, or lack thereof.
FWIW, I can guarantee that if my mom got into an unintended acceleration situation, she would not shift into neutral or press the brake hard enough to overpower the engine in her Avalon. I've been trying to explain it to her, but she just doesn't get it. I think for her to get it, I will need to actually make her try it while driving. Otherwise she would be too scared.
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 01:05:40 PM
If I were out of control at 94mph, calling 911 would be the last of my thoughts with the list of options of...
- First jab the gas to see if it gets unstuck
- Second put car in neutral
- Third apply brakes HARD
- Forth shut car off
- Fifth downshift tranny to slow down car and/or blow up engine
- Sixth select Park and try to destroy tranny and engine
- Seventh call cops
Perhaps I'm giving credit where it's not due, but I'm thinking he may have tried steps 1 & 3, which should have stopped the car, no matter what was happening.
Quote
...Instead, he's yacking on a cell phone at 94mph :rolleyes:
That could describe 90% of the people I see on the road today unfortunately.
Quote from: Jon? on March 11, 2010, 01:15:54 PM
Perhaps I'm giving credit where it's not due, but I'm thinking he may have tried steps 1 & 3, which should have stopped the car, no matter what was happening.
That could describe 90% of the people I see on the road today unfortunately.
Ok, the absolute top speed of a Prius is 104mph with the ICE+Electric Assist at 100% charge. He managed to go 30 miles at 94mph? Plese explain how you reach 90% of your top speed for 30 miles with the brakes floored, with no electric motors being on (auto cut when brakes are applied plus the battery would never last that long) and then suddenly use the ebrake (which on the prius IS the rear brake pads) after 30 miles of hard braking and suddenly the car comes to a stop?
Please explain how you can even get a faint bit of truth out of any of the story?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 11, 2010, 12:52:52 PM
"If there's no proof, it doesn't exist." -GoCougs
Generally speaking, none of these so-called unintended acceleration complaints have any proof whatsoever.
Specifically speaking, 99.99% chance he was either stupid or a liar.
http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration
I have a hunch you're right on the liar part.
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on March 11, 2010, 01:42:48 PM
http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration
I have a hunch you're right on the liar part.
Imagine a completely automotively ignorant person, and now force said person to falsify an unintended acceleration incident.
This guy's story is about what you'd get.
He also was wearing a Corvette Club Of America jacket when he got pulled over... that would lend me to suspect he had at least a bit of automotive knowledge
This guy could actually end up being Toyota's savior in a couple days from now as no media outlet will touch the next report of something like this with a 10 foot pole after its confimed he's a fraud...
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 01:29:20 PM
Ok, the absolute top speed of a Prius is 104mph with the ICE+Electric Assist at 100% charge. He managed to go 30 miles at 94mph? Plese explain how you reach 90% of your top speed for 30 miles with the brakes floored, with no electric motors being on (auto cut when brakes are applied plus the battery would never last that long) and then suddenly use the ebrake (which on the prius IS the rear brake pads) after 30 miles of hard braking and suddenly the car comes to a stop?
Please explain how you can even get a faint bit of truth out of any of the story?
:hesaid:
Quote from: afty on March 11, 2010, 01:15:54 PM
My guess is that, as irrational as it is, people don't want to "damage" their cars by doing things like panic braking while accelerating (smelling the brake pads) or shifting into neutral at speed (hearing the engine rev). The mainstream public have no idea how cars work and have no experience outside the comfort zone of daily commuting. What percentage of people have ever actually braked at 100% or shifted into neutral while driving? I've ridden with people in my car who think "the engine is going to blow" when I rev above 5000 rpm. It's all about people's driving experience, or lack thereof.
FWIW, I can guarantee that if my mom got into an unintended acceleration situation, she would not shift into neutral or press the brake hard enough to overpower the engine in her Avalon. I've been trying to explain it to her, but she just doesn't get it. I think for her to get it, I will need to actually make her try it while driving. Otherwise she would be too scared.
This I would have to agree, using examples of women in my personal life. Women for the most part just aren't spatial creatures (and hence not prone to math, science and thus things mechanical and/or stratetic all of which come into play in such an emergency situation).
See, I'd probably be a wee bit more open to Toyota being at fault if most or all of the complaints were runaway-on-the-freeway type (and weren't obviously BS like this aforementioned story). In such an instance, to me the whole of the accelerator assembly is under far more stress mechanically, electrically and softwarely.
Quote from: afty on March 11, 2010, 01:15:54 PM
My guess is that, as irrational as it is, people don't want to "damage" their cars by doing things like panic braking while accelerating (smelling the brake pads) or shifting into neutral at speed (hearing the engine rev). The mainstream public have no idea how cars work and have no experience outside the comfort zone of daily commuting. What percentage of people have ever actually braked at 100% or shifted into neutral while driving? I've ridden with people in my car who think "the engine is going to blow" when I rev above 5000 rpm. It's all about people's driving experience, or lack thereof.
FWIW, I can guarantee that if my mom got into an unintended acceleration situation, she would not shift into neutral or press the brake hard enough to overpower the engine in her Avalon. I've been trying to explain it to her, but she just doesn't get it. I think for her to get it, I will need to actually make her try it while driving. Otherwise she would be too scared.
Sadly, that's true. I cannot imagine how my wife would react if her vehicle took off on her.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 11, 2010, 02:19:03 PM
Sadly, that's true. I cannot imagine how my wife would react if her vehicle took off on her.
My gf would've probably called me, I wouldn't told her exactly what to do.. and problem solved.
One time, my girlfriend called me because she clipped a curb with her right-front wheel and fucked up her hubcap. She was nearly in tears, freaking out about what to do. Sigh.
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 01:29:20 PM
Ok, the absolute top speed of a Prius is 104mph with the ICE+Electric Assist at 100% charge. He managed to go 30 miles at 94mph? Plese explain how you reach 90% of your top speed for 30 miles with the brakes floored, with no electric motors being on (auto cut when brakes are applied plus the battery would never last that long) and then suddenly use the ebrake (which on the prius IS the rear brake pads) after 30 miles of hard braking and suddenly the car comes to a stop?
Please explain how you can even get a faint bit of truth out of any of the story?
I thought someone posted earlier that the Prius parking brake automatically puts the transmission in neutral. Even weak brakes can bring a car to a stop when the engine isn't fighting it.
James Sikes is clearly a fraud.
Anyone with half a brain can see that.
He repeatedly refused to shift the Prius into neutral when asked by the 911 dispatcher, and his given reason over the phone was that he wanted to keep both hands on the wheel.
Yet somehow he managed to make 2 phone calls, AND reach down to move the gas pedal with his hands. Sounds like he had no concern for keeping both hands on the wheel.
Then the CHP pulled up and told him to put into neutral and he refused, saying the car would flip. Which is clearly nonsensical and in conflict to his previous bogus reason.
Anyway this low life needs to be arrested and put into jail ASAP for endangering many many lives on the freeway that day with a stunt so he could get out of back car payments.
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 01:57:08 PM
This guy could actually end up being Toyota's savior in a couple days from now as no media outlet will touch the next report of something like this with a 10 foot pole after its confimed he's a fraud...
Oh, the irony if that does indeed happen.
Yeah it seems like this Sikes guy is pretty much a well known scam artist that's burned alot of people in the past.
http://www.bestcashcow.com/news/article/jrodgers/james-sikes-and-his-toyota-prius-acceleration-problem-too-much-hollywood-script
"Jim Sikes?.....The name sounded familiar to me, then it clicked. He was the owner of a foreclosed home that we were trying to buy last year in Bonita, a suburb of San Diego.
That in-of-itself is not enough to question someone's character, but the fact that he gutted the ENTIRE kitchen out of this 4,000 ft custom home certainly is! They stole EVERYTHING before moving out. Appliances, cabinets, granite countertops....even the lights!
What made it even more pathetic at the time was we learned that he and his wife were pretty well known local realtors whom you'd think would be above such sleazy shenanigans.
I'm tempted to contact Toyota corporate and have them scrutinize this joker carefully."
"James Sikes and his wife Patty are former co-workers at a real estate brokerage I worked at in Bonita, CA (Realty Executives Premier now Coldwell Banker Premier). They are sleazy operators and were let go after numerous complaints and warnings due to their under handed and under cutting tactics they used on other agents in our brokerage. They have no scruples and a lousy reputation. It seems to me that James also has a prior law enforcement background. That would be very interesting to check out. As soon as I heard his name my scam radar turned on."
"SCAM...SCAM...SCAM!!!! Mr. Sikes should have staged this a week earlier so he would have been up for an academy award performance!!!! I have had dealings with this scumbag and I hope they lock him up. He has a long history of fraudulent behavior including insurance scams. Ask anybody in the real estate business in this part of California about he and his wife....SCUM!!!!!"
"When I first saw Jim Sikes picture on the news the other night I yelled to my husband "Hey, they finally nailed Sikes". I soon realized he was babling some nonsense about a runaway car. I don't know much about cars but I do know a lot about Mr. Sikes and it's easy to tell when he's lying....his lips are moving!!!!!
Lock him up, throw away the key...the world will be a better place!"
"When I first heard this story I really felt sorry for the guy , but then his name sounded familiar. He's well known in this part of California for all the wrong reasons. I don't know a whole lot about cars butI do know if there's a way to make a quick buck Jim Sikes is your guy....look in the dictionary under con artist and there's his picture!!!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ind98EWAPek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajjUOUdn4Y4&NR=1
It was only a matter of time before the most dubbed video on the net gets the Toyota treatment. Hmmm they could have done better.
Quote from: ifcar on March 11, 2010, 02:54:21 PM
I thought someone posted earlier that the Prius parking brake automatically puts the transmission in neutral. Even weak brakes can bring a car to a stop when the engine isn't fighting it.
No, thats if you shift the tranny into park
Quote from: r0tor on March 11, 2010, 01:29:20 PM
Ok, the absolute top speed of a Prius is 104mph with the ICE+Electric Assist at 100% charge. He managed to go 30 miles at 94mph? Plese explain how you reach 90% of your top speed for 30 miles with the brakes floored, with no electric motors being on (auto cut when brakes are applied plus the battery would never last that long) and then suddenly use the ebrake (which on the prius IS the rear brake pads) after 30 miles of hard braking and suddenly the car comes to a stop?
Please explain how you can even get a faint bit of truth out of any of the story?
Well never mind that this one is pretty well documented and the cop pacing the guyin the car with probably a calibrated speedometer says he s going 90+. And the cop also noted the strong overheated brake smell. Being skeptical is OK, but mesh that skepticizm with the facts.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 11, 2010, 05:44:40 PM
Well never mind that this one is pretty well documented and the cop pacing the guyin the car with probably a calibrated speedometer says he s going 90+. And the cop also noted the strong overheated brake smell. Being skeptical is OK, but mesh that skepticizm with the facts.
If the brakes were really overheated, it would have never stopped the car in the end. The guy drug the brakes for a few miles while being at WOT and then finally decided to stop or used the e-brake only to stop in which case yea you'd smell brakes burned
haha Random links about the CA Prius guy.
http://www.bestcashcow.com/news/article/jrodgers/james-sikes-and-his-toyota-prius-acceleration-problem-too-much-hollywood-script
Just skip to the comments. From people that KNOW the guy. LOL
http://pattyandjimsikes.com/
hahahahahah I guess his website is getting the hits now, huh??
--Make sure you have the speakers on. Frikkin' hilarious. I guess that's what Tard Americans need though...
Jalopnik is reporting that Sikes owns a swingers website.
It's spreading!
http://www.vg.no/bil-og-motor/artikkel.php?artid=591653
LOL - I guess that's one of the hazards of doing business with the general public - you have to be weary and prepared for idiots and liars. Capitulating as fast as Toyota did to a non-problem is shaping up to be the lesson here.
LOL - we can thank the blame-it-on-stupid-people Audi debacle in the '80s for brake interlock for AT shifters, and looks like we can blame virtually the same blame-it-on-stupid-people(and liars like this Sikes nutjob) for mandated black boxes (in conjunction with a hard left Congress):
Gov't May Seek More Authority on Vehicle Safety (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/12/govt-seek-authority-vehicle-safety/)
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration head says the agency will consider mandating vehicle 'black boxes,' which typically record data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.
Quote from: mzziaz on March 12, 2010, 12:27:06 AM
It's spreading!
http://www.vg.no/bil-og-motor/artikkel.php?artid=591653
What's the gist of the article?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 12, 2010, 02:21:27 AM
LOL - we can thank the blame-it-on-stupid-people Audi debacle in the '80s for brake interlock for AT shifters, and looks like we can blame virtually the same blame-it-on-stupid-people(and liars like this Sikes nutjob) for mandated black boxes (in conjunction with a hard left Congress):
Gov't May Seek More Authority on Vehicle Safety (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/12/govt-seek-authority-vehicle-safety/)
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration head says the agency will consider mandating vehicle 'black boxes,' which typically record data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.
i so called that...
Quote from: r0tor on March 12, 2010, 05:47:27 AM
i so called that...
No offense, but that was about like predicting the sun would rise in the East today.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 12, 2010, 05:43:09 AM
What's the gist of the article?
Guy was driving a Prius. Suddenly it started to speed. Driver couldn't stop the car, finally had to drive into an auto fence to stop. Toyota are flying experts over to check out the car.
Quote from: mzziaz on March 12, 2010, 06:57:05 AM
Guy was driving a Prius. Suddenly it started to speed. Driver couldn't stop the car, finally had to drive into an auto fence to stop. Toyota are flying experts over to check out the car.
Does it say if he tried neutral, stomping on the brakes, turning off the engine?
I saw a Camry in my rear view mirror ths orning and
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 12, 2010, 06:23:38 AM
No offense, but that was about like predicting the sun would rise in the East today.
Capitalists are often their own worst enemies: Toyota's horrible behavior will be exploited by the semi-cretins in Washington DC who will write absolutely awful damaging legislation. Think Enron & Sarbox.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 11, 2010, 08:14:13 PM
haha Random links about the CA Prius guy.
http://www.bestcashcow.com/news/article/jrodgers/james-sikes-and-his-toyota-prius-acceleration-problem-too-much-hollywood-script
Just skip to the comments. From people that KNOW the guy. LOL
http://pattyandjimsikes.com/
hahahahahah I guess his website is getting the hits now, huh??
--Make sure you have the speakers on. Frikkin' hilarious. I guess that's what Tard Americans need though...
Oh man... that guy is so owned, even if this turned out to be legit.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 12, 2010, 05:43:09 AM
What's the gist of the article?
Accelerator stuck at 176 kmh
49-year-old said speed was up to 176 kmh after accelerator stuck. Toyota experts now flying in to examine car.
Toyota to gather foreign experts
The time was 12:26 when the terrified Toyota Prius owner called police. He said the accelerator had stuck open, and that he had failed to stop the car.
The car's digital speedometer had read 176 kmh at its highest, according to the man's son.
"We tried to call Toyota, to see if we could get advice from them. Before we managed to get the local dealer, the man called up and announced that he had driven into the crash fence," said operations manager Hans Petter of Osaland College police.
The man was driving on the E18 towards Lillesand when the accelerator stuck, according to the man's explanation. He collided with the crash fence, just outside Bratteheitunnelen.
Police and ambulance pulled him out, and the man was sent to the emergency room as a precaution. He had only slight injuries in the collision.
He was at 176 kmh at its worst. When he called the police, he was driving at over 100, said the 49-year-old son.
The car owner himself was in the hospital for X-rays on Thursday night, and did not want to talk to VG Nett. He said his son is a big Toyota fan, and had been pleased with his car.
The car has automatic transmission. He tried to brake, but it did not work. Finally, he saw no choice but to drive into the crash barrier to stop the car, said the son.
Toyota Norway takes the incident very seriously and has ensured that the car, a 2009-model, has been taken to a local dealer in Kristiansand.
"We will send one of our own technical experts and one from Brussels to look at the car on Friday," said Toyota Norway's public affairs manager, Espen Olsen.
There have been several similar accidents with Toyota cars, but none before in Norway. The vehicle manufacturer has recalled a total of eight million cars worldwide, produced between 2004 and 2009, because of problems with gas pedals and floor mats that can wedge the gas pedal.
The Toyota Prius is being recalled for problems with braking, but only the latest 2010 model. The speeding Prius model belonging to the 49-year-old has so far not been been known for accelerator problems on Norwegian roads.
Earlier this week it became known that 61-year-old James Sikes of San Diego was driving a Toyota Prius when the gas pedal stuck open and the car accelerated on its own to 140 kmh;t he could not do anything.
Toyota will now investigate whether the floor mats may have got in the way of the accelerator in the Kristiansand accident. They have no reason to believe, from what they know so far about the accident, that there is anything wrong with the electronics.
"It is too early to say anything about the cause of Thursday's accident. But we have no reason to doubt that the customer had a problem with the car," the information manager emphasized. He has not talked to the car owner. "Our dealer has spoken with the customer and we will contact him later this week. We have great sympathy with the man after he has gone through," said Olsen.
Finally, Olsen wants to give general advice to Toyota customers:
"We have previously urged customers to check that the floor mat on the driver's side is properly fastened to the floor with the clip. You'll understand that it can lead to dangerous situations if it is slipping. One should never use rubber mats on top of textile mats or original mats that are not adapted to the car and the gas pedal's design. Customers who are in any doubt you should take out the mat and should contact the dealer as soon as possible.
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 12, 2010, 08:49:31 AM
Accelerator stuck at 176 kmh
49-year-old said speed was up to 176 kmh after accelerator stuck. Toyota experts now flying in to examine car.
Must be trying to get out of a lease payment.
I don't understand. The car has largely been unchanged since 2004. WHY are these cars having problems now!?
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2010, 11:15:07 AM
I don't understand. The car has largely been unchanged since 2004. WHY are these cars having problems now!?
The cars may be unchanged but the media phenomenon is new.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 12, 2010, 07:36:58 AM
Does it say if he tried neutral, stomping on the brakes, turning off the engine?
Only braking is mentioned in the article.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2010, 11:15:07 AM
I don't understand. The car has largely been unchanged since 2004. WHY are these cars having problems now!?
Possibly a couple of different reasons.
Mechanical parts wear over time. As mileage accumulates worn parts act differently.
I doubt the programming in a 2004 version is identical to those being built today. Perhaps a programming upgrade is having adverse consequences.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 12, 2010, 11:38:03 AM
Possibly a couple of different reasons.
Mechanical parts wear over time. As mileage accumulates worn parts act differently.
I doubt the programming in a 2004 version is identical to those being built today. Perhaps a programming upgrade is having adverse consequences.
Or the effect is psychological, kinda like how med students all start to develop these symptoms of a certain disease they talk about in class.
http://toyotasimulator.com/
I'm growing very tired of this. At first I thought it was legit, but it's just getting stupid. Hopefully Toyota will be able to call out all the BS and we can get the truth. I would hate to see a company go down the drain because of scammers.
The floor mat recall was the first signpost that virtually none of this is legit.
I mean, this happened with Firestone and Ford. People were practically throwing good tires away because of the panic of that fiasco.
I asked my mom what she would do if her accelerator stuck (just hypothetical, no one in my family owns a Toyota); she said she would probably just scream. However, she said she would stomp on the brakes with both feet, which is good. She said she wasn't sure if she would think of shifting to neutral though.
LOL
More Mr. Sikes News!!!!1!!!!1!!!!1!1111!!!!!1!!!!!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100314/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius;_ylt=AlcuKq12zMof_oU0iF.CzbWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNnYzhobGJhBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE0L3VzX3J1bmF3YXlfcHJpdXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMyBHBvcwM1BHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNhcG5ld3NicmVha3A-
"We're getting death threats"
"This has ruined our careers" (LOL!)
"During two hours of test drives of Sikes' car Thursday, technicians with Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration failed to duplicate the same experience that Sikes described"
"The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday"
"The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent. "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.
The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said. "
And the topping on the FAILCAKE:
"The Prius was compared with a separate test vehicle provided by the San Diego dealership with identical year, make, model and color features as the one under investigation."
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 14, 2010, 07:58:27 AM
LOL
More Mr. Sikes News!!!!1!!!!1!!!!1!1111!!!!!1!!!!!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100314/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius;_ylt=AlcuKq12zMof_oU0iF.CzbWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNnYzhobGJhBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE0L3VzX3J1bmF3YXlfcHJpdXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMyBHBvcwM1BHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNhcG5ld3NicmVha3A-
"We're getting death threats"
"This has ruined our careers" (LOL!)
"During two hours of test drives of Sikes' car Thursday, technicians with Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration failed to duplicate the same experience that Sikes described"
"The brakes on the Prius also did not show wear consistent with having been applied at full force at high speeds for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday"
"The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent. "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.
The rear brake pads had 1/2 mm left, or 3 1/2 mm less than new pads, the memo said. "
And the topping on the FAILCAKE:
"The Prius was compared with a separate test vehicle provided by the San Diego dealership with identical year, make, model and color features as the one under investigation."
Read the comments on the bottom though, apparently, there are still plenty of people that still believed in the hoax.
Quote from: NomisR on March 14, 2010, 11:34:48 AM
Read the comments on the bottom though, apparently, there are still plenty of people that still believed in the hoax.
Every time someone has an accident in a Toyota now, the car will be blamed :huh:.
They should've been more proactive before rather than delaying or blaming other factors.
What model year was that Prius again, and how many miles were on it? It's perfectly conceivable that the brakes were already spent before this incident. All in all it seems like a confirmed hoax. If that's the case this nutbag needs to got to jail, not to mention being sued for libel by Toyota.
Quote from: NomisR on March 14, 2010, 11:34:48 AM
Read the comments on the bottom though, apparently, there are still plenty of people that still believed in the hoax.
The comments on Yahoo! News are
hilarious now.
Unfortunately they rolled the comments over from the very first article about this particular incident. 3-4 different articles, the comments just keep going...
Recent comments are still great.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 14, 2010, 02:31:41 PM
The comments on Yahoo! News are hilarious now.
Unfortunately they rolled the comments over from the very first article about this particular incident. 3-4 different articles, the comments just keep going...
Recent comments are still great.
That's but one of the 212 dangers of giving government the power to regulate business; Stupid People get their voices heard the loudest.
Gods only know that abominable legislation will come out of this; some sort of standardized available-to-all black box recorder I think is now a foregone conclusion.
SNL skit :tounge:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/134733/saturday-night-live-weekend-getaway (http://www.hulu.com/watch/134733/saturday-night-live-weekend-getaway)
Quote from: SVT32V on March 15, 2010, 09:13:33 AM
SNL skit :tounge:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/134733/saturday-night-live-weekend-getaway (http://www.hulu.com/watch/134733/saturday-night-live-weekend-getaway)
Brought to you by Mitsubishi!
Many have concluded that Sikes staged the event. Maybe that's true. I'm not really sure how he would do that other than by pressing the accellerator and brake at the same time. However, in doing so, it would seem that the Prius has a safeguard against that happening...NHTSA also said that the "Prius is equipped with a system that detects simultaneous brake and accelerator pedal applications. When the brake applications are moderate or greater, the system will close the throttle, allowing the vehicle to slow down and stop. The system on Mr. Sikes' Prius worked during our engineers' test drive."
From...
NHTSA says it may never know what caused runaway Prius (http://detnews.com/article/20100315/AUTO01/3150388/1148/auto01/NHTSA-says-it-may-never-know-what-caused-runaway-Prius).
Any thoughts?
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 10:14:56 AM
Any thoughts?
Yup. Buy American. :evildude:
:cheers:
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 10:14:56 AM
Many have concluded that Sikes staged the event. Maybe that's true. I'm not really sure how he would do that other than by pressing the accellerator and brake at the same time. However, in doing so, it would seem that the Prius has a safeguard against that happening...NHTSA also said that the "Prius is equipped with a system that detects simultaneous brake and accelerator pedal applications. When the brake applications are moderate or greater, the system will close the throttle, allowing the vehicle to slow down and stop. The system on Mr. Sikes' Prius worked during our engineers' test drive."
From...
NHTSA says it may never know what caused runaway Prius (http://detnews.com/article/20100315/AUTO01/3150388/1148/auto01/NHTSA-says-it-may-never-know-what-caused-runaway-Prius).
Any thoughts?
As with all these instances, there is still not a shred of proof that there is/was a problem with the car.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 15, 2010, 10:34:37 AM
As with all these instances, there is still not a shred of proof that there is/was a problem with the car.
There was that one story that it happened to the guy right near a Toyota dealership- he took the car there using neutral/drive/neutral etc... and left it running. It was at WOT even when they were pushing the pedal down and pulling it back up. That screams SOFTWARE to me.
The rest of the Tards just don't know what "neutral" means.
Sikes is a big fat liar, although I don't know he deserves the "death threats" his wife claims they're getting...
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 10:14:56 AM
Many have concluded that Sikes staged the event. Maybe that's true. I'm not really sure how he would do that other than by pressing the accellerator and brake at the same time. However, in doing so, it would seem that the Prius has a safeguard against that happening...NHTSA also said that the "Prius is equipped with a system that detects simultaneous brake and accelerator pedal applications. When the brake applications are moderate or greater, the system will close the throttle, allowing the vehicle to slow down and stop. The system on Mr. Sikes' Prius worked during our engineers' test drive."
From...
NHTSA says it may never know what caused runaway Prius (http://detnews.com/article/20100315/AUTO01/3150388/1148/auto01/NHTSA-says-it-may-never-know-what-caused-runaway-Prius).
Any thoughts?
Quote from: GoCougs on March 15, 2010, 10:34:37 AM
As with all these instances, there is still not a shred of proof that there is/was a problem with the car.
The question is, how did he manage to 'stage' the event if the Prius has a feature that detects simultaneous brake and accelerator pedal applications and then closes the throttle?
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 11:01:47 AM
The question is, how did he manage to 'stage' the event if the Prius has a feature that detects simultaneous brake and accelerator pedal applications and then closes the throttle?
Simple, the system only cuts power momentarily, it does not shut down the car for good. Plus the explanation is included in your own post. Only with moderate or great braking does that system kick in, which means riding the brakes or dabbing them does not do so. We know clearly he did not apply the brakes very strongly because the braking system in the prius would overwhelm the puny horsepower of the car rather quickly.
He clearly just floored the prius all the way, and then just dabbed the brakes/ rode the brakes as needed to avoid running into anything for the ridiculous amount of miles he drove. In case he did get on the brakes hard, he would only have a momentary power cut before he could get right back on the gas.
I could go pull a Sikes right now if I wanted to.
As I said before, Sikes clearly staged the event, evidenced by his unwillingness to put the car into neutral despite repeated instructions to do so, and giving inconsistent and ridiculous reasons for not doing so. At first he said he wanted to keep both hands on the wheel, though clearly he dialed and was talking on his cell phone, and later said he reached down with one hand to manipulate the pedal with his hand. Later he said he didn't want the car to flip, which makes no sense. Clearly the man was just looking for an excuse to keep his reckless and criminal stunt going.
This man should be locked up ASAP.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 14, 2010, 11:45:50 AM
Every time someone has an accident in a Toyota now, the car will be blamed :huh:.
They should've been more proactive before rather than delaying or blaming other factors.
Not really, being proactive is what screwed them over. Because being proactive involves finding the problem, which is near impossible to do with such a rare and unreproducible issue.
They should have done exactly what Ford did to respond to their nearly as many unwanted acceleration complaints as Toyota. Which is absolutely nothing.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 01:15:12 PM
Simple, the system only cuts power momentarily, it does not shut down the car for good. Plus the explanation is included in your own post. Only with moderate or great braking does that system kick in, which means riding the brakes or dabbing them does not do so. We know clearly he did not apply the brakes very strongly because the braking system in the prius would overwhelm the puny horsepower of the car rather quickly.
He clearly just floored the prius all the way, and then just dabbed the brakes/ rode the brakes as needed to avoid running into anything for the ridiculous amount of miles he drove. In case he did get on the brakes hard, he would only have a momentary power cut before he could get right back on the gas.
I could go pull a Sikes right now if I wanted to.
As I said before, Sikes clearly staged the event, evidenced by his unwillingness to put the car into neutral despite repeated instructions to do so, and giving inconsistent and ridiculous reasons for not doing so. At first he said he wanted to keep both hands on the wheel, though clearly he dialed and was talking on his cell phone, and later said he reached down with one hand to manipulate the pedal with his hand. Later he said he didn't want the car to flip, which makes no sense. Clearly the man was just looking for an excuse to keep his reckless and criminal stunt going.
This man should be locked up ASAP.
Really? It seems that you're making a number of assumptions.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 01:18:53 PM
Not really, being proactive is what screwed them over. Because being proactive involves finding the problem, which is near impossible to do with such a rare and unreproducible issue.
They should have done exactly what Ford did to respond to their nearly as many unwanted acceleration complaints as Toyota. Which is absolutely nothing.
I expect that Ford, and all the others, are doing a pretty thorough examination of their software. I'm not clear whether the 'unwanted accelleration' is a brief surge or WOT for an extended period of time. Unfortunately, for Toyota, they are the ones associated with loss of life and that is what is killing them.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 01:58:16 PM
Really? It seems that you're making a number of assumptions.
He had already declared bankruptcy and was $700,000 in debt. Clearly being able to avoid lease payments on a Prius would have been the first step back to complete solvency.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 02:01:26 PM
I expect that Ford, and all the others, are doing a pretty thorough examination of their software. I'm not clear whether the 'unwanted accelleration' is a brief surge or WOT for an extended period of time. Unfortunately, for Toyota, they are the ones associated with loss of life and that is what is killing them.
Ford's unintented acceleration are associated with deaths as well. As with accleration complaints, it is second to Toyota, 20 to Toyota's 51. Though I'm sure Toyota's number probably alot less than 51 before this whole thing exploded on the media (Toyota's complaints number about doubled after this hit the meda).
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-15/ford-had-20-acceleration-deaths-as-regulators-cited-human-error.html
"NHTSA, which is responsible for ensuring the safety of motor vehicles in the U.S., hasn?t previously disclosed the non- Toyota deaths. After Toyota?s 51, Ford and Chrysler vehicles were linked to the most deaths -- 20 for Ford and 12 for Chrysler"
Honestly it's a ridiculous stretch to say that 51 deaths out of millions of cars for Toyota is some significant huge problem and 20 deaths for probably less cars sold from Ford are no problem at all.
People need to take a good look at Ford.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 15, 2010, 11:00:30 AM
There was that one story that it happened to the guy right near a Toyota dealership- he took the car there using neutral/drive/neutral etc... and left it running. It was at WOT even when they were pushing the pedal down and pulling it back up. That screams SOFTWARE to me.
The rest of the Tards just don't know what "neutral" means.
Sikes is a big fat liar, although I don't know he deserves the "death threats" his wife claims they're getting...
Interesting, I've never heard of a specific instance. I'd be interested in learning more, and if there is specific data point to the exact cause.
But yeah, this guy plainly faked the ordeal. Why he'd been giving the white glove treatment by the press, LE and Toyota goes to show how FUBAR the situation is.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 02:13:44 PM
Ford's unintented acceleration are associated with deaths as well. As with accleration complaints, it is second to Toyota, 20 to Toyota's 51. Though I'm sure Toyota's number probably alot less than 51 before this whole thing exploded on the media (Toyota's complaints number about doubled after this hit the meda).
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-15/ford-had-20-acceleration-deaths-as-regulators-cited-human-error.html
"NHTSA, which is responsible for ensuring the safety of motor vehicles in the U.S., hasn?t previously disclosed the non- Toyota deaths. After Toyota?s 51, Ford and Chrysler vehicles were linked to the most deaths -- 20 for Ford and 12 for Chrysler"
Honestly it's a ridiculous stretch to say that 51 deaths out of millions of cars for Toyota is some significant huge problem and 20 deaths for probably less cars sold from Ford are no problem at all.
People need to take a good look at Ford.
As with the SUV rollover scenario in the last decade where Ford had the most on the road and the most occurances and were in the spotlight, it is now Toyota with the most vehicles on the road and the most reported. It only stands to reason that they will be in the spotlight.
re Ford...
$18M award in Ford wreck overturned in S. Carolina (http://detnews.com/article/20100315/AUTO01/3150400/1148/$18M-award-in-Ford-wreck-overturned)
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 01:58:16 PM
Really? It seems that you're making a number of assumptions.
Which assumptions?
The man refused to put the car into neutral despite being repeatedly ordered to do so: Fact
The man gave conflicting and bogus reasons why not to put his car into neutral: Fact
The man has a history of being a scam artist (and not a very sucessful one seeing how he's so ridiculously in debt now): Fact
The Pruis's powershutdown feature does not activate when the brakes are gently applied: Fact
The power shutdown is not permanent and you can keep driving when you lift off the brake after braking strongly: Fact
You made it sound like it was impossible for him to do what he wanted to do because of the powercut feature, when in fact it is extremely easy to do so.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 15, 2010, 02:22:50 PM
Interesting, I've never heard of a specific instance. I'd be interested in learning more, and if there is specific data point to the exact cause.
But yeah, this guy plainly faked the ordeal. Why he'd been giving the white glove treatment by the press, LE and Toyota goes to show how FUBAR the situation is.
I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread or one of the others.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 02:26:18 PM
As with the SUV rollover scenario in the last decade where Ford had the most on the road and the most occurances and were in the spotlight, it is now Toyota with the most vehicles on the road and the most reported. It only stands to reason that they will be in the spotlight.
You mean the media hysteria should focus on Toyota? Then you too admit that in terms of real danger, the actual difference between Ford and Toyota are non existent?
Seriously I feel like the Ford fans are super happy about this happening to Toyota in the hopes that it would boost Ford sales. That plan will most likely backfire. As evidenced by the Edmunds Article and the Business Week article, it's no longer a secret that Ford has a rather significant problem here as well, Ford often finds itself in the headline of these articles.
It's only going to take one opprotunist like Sikes who happens to own a Ford to make this completely blow up for Ford as well. Considering Ford's past with Explorers and it's less than spotless record, I don't think it will fare nearly as well as Toyota with its previously stellar record.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 02:29:16 PM
I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread or one of the others.
Sure there are lots of stories but there is no data, or at least a summary of the data, in any of these stories.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
Which assumptions?
The man refused to put the car into neutral despite being repeatedly ordered to do so: Fact
The man gave conflicting and bogus reasons why not to put his car into neutral: Fact
The man has a history of being a scam artist (and not a very sucessful one seeing how he's so ridiculously in debt now): Fact
The Pruis's powershutdown feature does not activate when the brakes are gently applied: Fact
The power shutdown is not permanent and you can keep driving when you lift off the brake after braking strongly: Fact
You made it sound like it was impossible for him to do what he wanted to do because of the powercut feature, when in fact it is extremely easy to do so.
You're assuming that he didn't apply the brakes with force. You're assuming that, because he is bankrupt he staged this event. Your assuming that the powercut feature cuts in and out when it states that
the system will close the throttle, allowing the vehicle to slow down and stop. You're also assuming that he didn't think something untoward would happen if he put it in neutral.
Maybe you're right, but it is still a lot of assumptions.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 02:31:54 PM
You mean the media hysteria should focus on Toyota? Then you too admit that in terms of real danger, the actual difference between Ford and Toyota are non existent?
I didn't say it should. I said it only stands to reason that it will; as with Ford in the rollover scenario.
Quote
Seriously I feel like the Ford fans are super happy about this happening to Toyota in the hopes that it would boost Ford sales. That plan will most likely backfire. As evidenced by the Edmunds Article and the Business Week article, it's no longer a secret that Ford has a rather significant problem here as well, Ford often finds itself in the headline of these articles.
It only seems that way to Toyota fans. Most Ford fans were rather nonplussed when others seemed to be taking so much pleasure in Ford's misery during the Explorer/Firestone fiasco. In the end, it benefitted Ford as it taught them that they can never take their attention off of the product.
Quote
It's only going to take one opprotunist like Sikes who happens to own a Ford to make this completely blow up for Ford as well. Considering Ford's past with Explorers and it's less than spotless record, I don't think it will fare nearly as well as Toyota with its previously stellar record.
Spoken like a true Toyota fan ;).
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 02:45:47 PM
You're assuming that he didn't apply the brakes with force. You're assuming that, because he is bankrupt he staged this event. Your assuming that the powercut feature cuts in and out when it states that the system will close the throttle, allowing the vehicle to slow down and stop. You're also assuming that he didn't think something untoward would happen if he put it in neutral.
Maybe you're right, but it is still a lot of assumptions.
First off I didn't say he didn't apply the brakes with force, I said that even if he did, he could keep going if the system cuts back in. That is a fact (see below).
Second I didn't say his bankrupt status means he staged it, but rather his previous history of scams makes him a scammer. If you want to say that it's an assumption to say that someone who's a fraud will pull this shit again, then by all means. I think it's a bigger assumption to think that he is fine with ripping off people, but he's suddenly all saint like with Toyota.
Third the power cut feature being lifed once the gas is lifted is not an assumption, it is a fact. It deactivates as soon as the brake is released.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiSQeaeWxGU
At 40 seconds you can see the car leaps back into acceleration as soon as the brake is released.
In that particular video she waited till the car was stopped to prove her point. The car does NOT need to stop for the acceleration to continue.
http://sharing.theflip.com/session/9773c358173490d9e5bda837e1c08184/video/11407344
In this video if you skip to the 3:55 mark, you can see him doing the brake override from 80mph to about 45 or so, and then as soon as he lifts off he accelerates back to 82mph. He does it again for good measure to about 60mph.
Clearly this shows brake override only working when you step on the brake as a temporary feature is NOT an assumption, but a fact.
Finally I didn't say that I didn't believe some people don't think something bad will happen with you put the car into neutral, as that is a common misconception. However I don't think that was the reason for Sikes because he gives conflicting reasons for not doing so, which is a fact. Also the reasons he gave at first were a flat out lie, because he clearly was willing not to put both hands on the wheel. That is a another fact. So we have a man who clearly lied to 911 dispatchers about why he was not putting the car into neutral. Whether he actually believed the car would flip (ridiculous) as he asserted later after he was pulled over is irrelevant as he is already documented to have LIED to police about his reasoning for not putting the car into neutral.
So to sum it up, sikes is an obvious fraud.
There is just no way to account for what happened and not have him as a fraud without some super imaginative thinking.
I don't know all the details and I don't know if anyone does; other than Sikes. If it weren't for the cop following him, I'd be more inclined to say he staged it. According to the article, ultimately it was stopped when the Ebrake was engaged and when going up a hill it slowed to 55mph and then he put it in neutral. When they checked the brakes, the fronts were gone and the backs were excessively worn. I'm not sure it that would happen by just moderately applying and releasing the brakes. Besides, with the cop following him, I not sure if he could get away with applying and releasing the brakes without the cop being aware of it.
I just don't know for sure so I'm not assuming that it wasn't real.
Quote from: 565 on March 15, 2010, 02:13:44 PM
Ford's unintented acceleration are associated with deaths as well. As with accleration complaints, it is second to Toyota, 20 to Toyota's 51. Though I'm sure Toyota's number probably alot less than 51 before this whole thing exploded on the media (Toyota's complaints number about doubled after this hit the meda).
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-15/ford-had-20-acceleration-deaths-as-regulators-cited-human-error.html
"NHTSA, which is responsible for ensuring the safety of motor vehicles in the U.S., hasn?t previously disclosed the non- Toyota deaths. After Toyota?s 51, Ford and Chrysler vehicles were linked to the most deaths -- 20 for Ford and 12 for Chrysler"
Honestly it's a ridiculous stretch to say that 51 deaths out of millions of cars for Toyota is some significant huge problem and 20 deaths for probably less cars sold from Ford are no problem at all.
People need to take a good look at Ford.
This study includes trucks and SUVs, do you have evidence that toyota sold more vehicles in the US during the last 30 years in question here. Especially when considering how many SUVs and trucks Ford has sold over this period of time. Toyota has been the dominant automaker in the US for a short period of time.
The sudden accleration deaths are statistically not significant for any of these automakers. This is true even of the more recent data such as the NY times (yr 2000 and up) indicating 1 out of 20,000 Toyota's suddnenly accelerate, vs 1:67,000 Fords and 1:70,0000 hondas.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 03:21:31 PM
I don't know all the details and I don't know if anyone does; other than Sikes. If it weren't for the cop following him, I'd be more inclined to say he staged it. According to the article, ultimately it was stopped when the Ebrake was engaged and when going up a hill it slowed to 55mph and then he put it in neutral. When they checked the brakes, the fronts were gone and the backs were excessively worn. I'm not sure it that would happen by just moderately applying and releasing the brakes. Besides, with the cop following him, I not sure if he could bet away with applying and releasing the brakes without the cop being aware of it.
I just don't know for sure so I'm not assuming that it wasn't real.
Okay the brakes being worn away is consistent with Sikes riding the brakes for 26 miles or however long he went for, with intermittent stops to avoid cars. The smell of brakes is consistent with the same.
I remember once setting the pin for the master brake cylinder on my car too far and having the brakes slightly engaged the entire way. Afterwards my pads were rather worn and there was definitely the stench of brakes.
In fact the investigation finds exactly that.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704416904575122000750517056.html
"But the preliminary findings of the joint investigation by Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration suggest the brakes weren't applied at full force over a sustained period at high speeds, said the three people familiar with the probe.
While the brakes were discolored and showed wear, the pattern of friction suggested the driver may have intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said."
Which is totally consistent with how I stated he must have driven considering the failsafe system.
Second the CHP did not follow Sikes for very long before the whole thing was over. In fact the whole CHP incident makes it MORE clear this is a hoax. If you watch this CBS news article, they make it clear as soon as the CHP pulled along side and told him to put his foot on the brake, sikes' car suddenly magically slowed down again. So once a reliable witness was on the scene, sikes decided the game was up.
http://philly2philly.com/politics_community/politics_community_articles/2010/3/15/43427/james_sikes_toyota_prius_runaway_stor
So after 23 minutes of the dispatcher shouting at him to do various things to slow down (things that would work for sure), the CHP comes over tells sikes to do the obvious thing of stepping on the brakes, and the car suddenly and magically works again.
Plus the dispatcher asked sikes to do various things to slow the car down, and sikes claimed he did them all except putting the car into neutral in his 23 minutes of fame. So basically not only did the accelerator had to fail, the brake fail safe had to fail, the power shut off had to fail, and all of these systems magically came back online when the CHP pulled up.
I don't see how anyone could claim sikes is not clearly a fraud with a straight face. I just can't see it.
Quote from: SVT32V on March 15, 2010, 03:30:14 PM
This study includes trucks and SUVs, do you have evidence that toyota sold more vehicles in the US during the last 30 years in question here. Especially when considering how many SUVs and trucks Ford has sold over this period of time. Toyota has been the dominant automaker in the US for a short period of time.
The sudden accleration deaths are statistically not significant for any of these automakers. This is true even of the more recent data such as the NY times (yr 2000 and up) indicating 1 out of 20,000 Toyota's suddnenly accelerate, vs 1:67,000 Fords and 1:70,0000 hondas.
The data reported by the NY Times was originally from an Edmunds article that I recently posted up here before.
Actually the data was 1 out of 50,000 for Toyota and 1:67,000 for Fords, if you don't count the enormous amounts of complaints racked up after the media blitz on Toyota.
Data significance only means something in comparisons. You cannot say some data has signficance alone, only in comparison to another piece of data or a null hypothesis. R0tor already crunched the math and found that Toyota and Ford are not statistically significant for difference.
Also from that business week article:
"Among the 51 fatalities in Toyota vehicles, 36 were reported after Oct. 5 of last year, when widespread publicity of unintended acceleration in the company?s cars began"
So really only 15 fatalites were reported for Toyota before the media blitz, compared to Ford's 20.
As for total sales. There is a chance that Ford did sell more total cars than Toyota over 30 years. I originally thought the data points were from the same article Edmunds used (where Toyota did outsell Ford).
I didn't read all the articles. The original article said that the cop saw the brake lights were on and he could smell the brakes burning. He pulled along side and told him to pull on the Ebrake and kept shouting over his bull horn to put it in neutral. Sikes said he was afraid it would flip. The 911 guy said he was telling him to do stuff but Sikes said he had put his phone on the seat so he could have his hands on the wheel. With him applying the brakes full force and with the Ebrake on and going up a hill, it eventually slowed to 55 mph when he put it into neutral.
Sounds plausible to me.
That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead. As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.
The front still had pad material though, and even without it the friction of metal on metal should have still created significant braking force. Either way, I like 565's summation; it would have required a ridiculous convergence of simultaneous malfunctions for his story to be true.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 04:05:05 PM
I didn't read all the articles. The original article said that the cop saw the brake lights were on and he could smell the brakes burning. He pulled along side and told him to pull on the Ebrake and kept shouting over his bull horn to put it in neutral. Sikes said he was afraid it would flip. The 911 guy said he was telling him to do stuff but Sikes said he had put his phone on the seat so he could have his hands on the wheel. With him applying the brakes full force and with the Ebrake on and going up a hill, it eventually slowed to 55 mph when he put it into neutral.
Sounds plausible to me.
That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead. As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.
Except he didn't put the car into neutral at 55mph. He turned the car off at 55mph.
He was repeatedly asked to turn the car off by holding the button down over the phone, and he said he was doing so and the system was failing. All of a sudden the CHP shows up and it works?
Seriously 3 systems failing on the Prius at the same time. 3 systems not known the fail on priuses before (prius was not part of the accelerator recall), and the brake failsafe was not on the recall either. Then 3 systems suddenly magically fixing itself upon CHP arrival.
Even without the outright lies to the dispatcher, or his scammer history, that alone makes this completely inplausible.
Also the NHSTA seems confident in backing Toyota's report because of how the Prius was engineered. They concluded it was not electronically or MECHANICALLY feasible.
http://jalopnik.com/5493033/runaway-prius-memo-oversight-draft-document/
So the way the Prius drivetrain works is outlined and explained. Basically for this run away incident to happen, not only did there need to be an electronic failure, but a mechanical one as well in the planetary gear sets, because applying the brakes enormously overrevs the engine and causes a seize (the reason why the brake failsafe exists in the first place). The Prius in question was examined and the drivetrain is fine.
So are you saying not only were there 3 electronic failures that magically resolved upon CHP arrival, but also a mechanical failure and the metal magically healed like flesh after the incident was over.
The simpliest solution is usually right. You could assume a massive failing of 3 electronic systems and one mechanical one, all magically self repaired. Or you could just see that the known cheat who lied to police on tape, was indeed lying.
looks like toyotas official response is "he's a liar" :clap:
good for toyota
And here we go:
Normandy Park (Seattle) couple sues Toyota over car's lost value.
A Normandy Park couple have sued Toyota in federal court, demanding that the company either take back the car they just bought or reimburse them for its loss in value since the automaker's sudden-acceleration troubles became news. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011353877_toyotalawsuit16m.html)
Dig the comments; most everyone calls it for the BS that it is, though some dingbat says she had unintended acceleration in a '04 4Runner (and LOL - locked up the brakes bringing it to a stop).
Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.
People. Are. Pathetic.
By this shitty logic, I should be suing a few companies for the money I lost when purchasing their stocks! (PALM!) GIMME MAH MONEY BACKS CUZ I THOUGHT YOU WAS GOOD BUT THEN YOU SUCKED, AWW HELL NAW!
Quote from: GoCougs on March 15, 2010, 07:09:35 PM
Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.
Yea, I don't think I'd ever want to start a business in this day and age. So many people will try to throw you under a bus just to get something for free...
Quote from: r0tor on March 16, 2010, 05:54:48 AM
Yea, I don't think I'd ever want to start a business in this day and age. So many people will try to throw you under a bus just to get something for free...
Toyota is
finally starting to fight back.
Toyota: 'Significant Inconsistencies' in Case of Reported Runaway Prius. (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/14/lawyer-rebuts-doubts-runaway-prius-driver/?test=latestnews)
Quote from: GoCougs on March 16, 2010, 07:59:38 AM
Toyota is finally starting to fight back.
Toyota: 'Significant Inconsistencies' in Case of Reported Runaway Prius. (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/14/lawyer-rebuts-doubts-runaway-prius-driver/?test=latestnews)
Damage has been done, and the media will not cover this to the same extent as it has since this type of news would make Toyota look good. I mean, look at the whole Audi scandal, even though Audi has been proved to be not at fault and media was to be blamed partially for falsifying reports, they still suffered for it.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 15, 2010, 07:09:35 PM
Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.
Don't drag Moxie into this mess! (Not that I like the stuff..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 15, 2010, 04:05:05 PM
That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead. As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.
No, the rear were good.
According to NHTSA and Toyota, there was no indication that the brakes had been "burnt"- I would GUESS that means the fluid was good.
The computer showed the driver had rapidly pushed the brakes and accelerator
200+ times.
My GUESS is he was heel/toeing to pretend he was outta control. The guy's history is that he's a slimy real-estate swindler, and claimed $7k on stuff stolen out of his car recently. Seriously. ?!.
think Honda will face issues??
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall;_ylt=ArkdK6ByewRGEG8GYfB3_8.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJjbzVkYmM4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE2L3VzX2hvbmRhX3JlY2FsbARwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHNsawNob25kYXRvcmVjYWw-
China the last few years has been on a nationalization rampage of coal mines under the guise of "safety"...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 17, 2010, 05:14:23 AM
think Honda will face issues??
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall;_ylt=ArkdK6ByewRGEG8GYfB3_8.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJjbzVkYmM4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE2L3VzX2hvbmRhX3JlY2FsbARwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHNsawNob25kYXRvcmVjYWw-
EVERY automaker is bound to come under even more scrutiny as people come forward will all sorts of "complaints."
Quote from: GoCougs on March 17, 2010, 09:03:26 AM
EVERY automaker is bound to come under even more scrutiny as people come forward will all sorts of "complaints."
Yes, but the way Honda handled it is very different than Toyota. Better to just be outright honest than try to deflect it and stave off the "bad PR"..
a soft brake pedal does not equate to the PR mess created by a runaway car
Quote from: r0tor on March 17, 2010, 10:28:58 AM
a soft brake pedal does not equate to the PR mess created by a runaway car
TRUE but they're announcing the recall BEFORE they even have parts available. Don't they usually announce the recall AFTER they're ready to perform repairs?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 17, 2010, 11:00:20 AM
TRUE but they're announcing the recall BEFORE they even have parts available. Don't they usually announce the recall AFTER they're ready to perform repairs?
I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix. This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix.
Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.
Maybe Toyota could have had TWO computers in the country to analyze the cars which were suspected of having problems.
Quote from: NomisR on March 17, 2010, 12:12:42 PM
I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix. This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix.
Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.
I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic. If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare. I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.
Quote from: R-inge on March 17, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic. If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare. I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.
I'm thinking that there must be some systemic trigger that causes them to notify the manufacturer. That trigger might even be available to the public, but I lack the ambition to research it.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 17, 2010, 10:05:55 AM
Yes, but the way Honda handled it is very different than Toyota. Better to just be outright honest than try to deflect it and stave off the "bad PR"..
Honda are being proactive. There have been 3 crashes and no deaths associated with the problem. Honda are handling it much better than Toyota. Honda is a much better car company in so many ways.
Quote from: NomisR on March 17, 2010, 12:12:42 PM
I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix. This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix.
Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.
NHTSA are underfunded and understaffed for the expectations that everyone has of them.
Quote from: Jon? on March 17, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
I'm thinking that there must be some systemic trigger that causes them to notify the manufacturer. That trigger might even be available to the public, but I lack the ambition to research it.
I read an article, too lazy to look it up, whereby it said that NHTSA has 'played down' reports of unintended acceleration after, initially, the Audi incident and others where there was never any proof. It stated that they have a 'policy' regarding this type of incident. Now, with the case of Toyota with so many incidents, and crashes/deaths, as well as the other manufacturers to a lesser degree, their 'policy' is being revised. They also need more funding in order to be able to properly investigate all reported problems. Apparently, there are about 30,000 per year; more now with all the Toyotas running out of control.
Quote from: R-inge on March 17, 2010, 03:51:44 PM
I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic. If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare. I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.
I don't know about Toyota panicking because if I remember correctly, NHTSA did have some officials visit Toyota in Japan regarding the issue. This almost feels like an effort by the government on trying to bolster Government Motor and Ford's sales, and divert attention from criticism.
This isn't really Toyota like for them to issue a panic recall like this unless they were receiving pressure from somewhere, which in this case, would be the US gov't. I mean, they did stick to their guns with the whole sludge issues.
Quote from: NomisR on March 17, 2010, 04:34:22 PM
I don't know about Toyota panicking because if I remember correctly, NHTSA did have some officials visit Toyota in Japan regarding the issue. This almost feels like an effort by the government on trying to bolster Government Motor and Ford's sales, and divert attention from criticism.
This isn't really Toyota like for them to issue a panic recall like this unless they were receiving pressure from somewhere, which in this case, would be the US gov't. I mean, they did stick to their guns with the whole sludge issues.
The real reason NHTSA officials went to Japan...
Safety Agency Scrutinized as Toyota Recall Grows (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/business/10safety.html?pagewanted=all)
In November, top auto safety officials made an unusual request of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. After reviewing complaints about Toyota vehicles, the regulators said they believed the automaker was stalling their inquiries and wanted to go to Japan to stress just how serious their concerns had become.
Executives at Toyota ?were dragging things out, and we?d had it,? a senior American transportation official said in recounting new details of the talks. ?We were getting excuses that didn?t make sense anymore.?
In the meantime...
Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix (http://detnews.com/article/20100317/AUTO01/3170441/1148/auto01/Toyota-weighs-Corolla-engine-stalling-fix)
Toyota Motor Corp. is considering a fix for nearly 1.2 million Corolla vehicles over engine stalling concerns.
The company told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in a March 2 letter that it doesn't think the problem is a safety defect.
"Toyota does not believe that the alleged defect creates an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety," Toyota said. "We understand that some customers have been inconvenienced by engine (control module) failure, and some have reported engine stalling."
Toyota said it is still working on a fix and wants to meet with NHTSA on the issue. Toyota's review also includes about 2,500 Matrix vehicles.
Toyota said it is its philosophy that an "engine stall or shutdown is preferable as opposed to allowing the engine to become damaged or dangerous (i.e. catastrophic failure, fire, etc.)."
Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota Corolla and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26 complaints alleging engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on highways or intersections -- a situation that could pose a safety hazard. NHTSA has since received another 30 complaints on the issue.
............
Toyota said it has been investigating the issue since 2007 and has since improved the module. It said cracks can occur at high temperatures in the module and said the failure over 10 years is projected at between 0.3 percent and 0.8 percent, based on the model year.
so a .3 to .8% failure rate over a 10 year span is now considered unacceptable????
Quote from: r0tor on March 18, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
so a .3 to .8% failure rate over a 10 year span is now considered unacceptable????
So it seems :huh:.
In reality, it's rather amazing that there is such a low failure rate. However, when failures, not saying the Corolla, are associated with crashes and deaths, then it gets blown out of proportion. That manufacturers deny they exist or are slow to respond causes problems for them.
At what point do you actually find it acceptable that there is a risk that something in your car can fail and cause your to crash? Be it a tire blow out, ball joint failing, power steering quitting, headlights blowing out, brake line rusting through.....
Quote from: r0tor on March 18, 2010, 08:22:31 AM
At what point do you actually find it acceptable that there is a risk that something in your car can fail and cause your to crash? Be it a tire blow out, ball joint failing, power steering quitting, headlights blowing out, brake line rusting through.....
Well, it's not really me, is it? I don't care that much. It's public perception. Toyota's been riding that train for a long time and getting away with it. Now it's bit them in the ass :huh:.
For example... ZOMG there are two complaints in the NHTSA website on 2006 Corvette Z06 stability control systems freaking out and causing the car to swerve and brake by itself
I'd imagine 2 out of the number of Z06's produced are a higher significance then 26 corollas out of the number toyota made. Where's the public outcry? Oh right, its not Toyota...
Quote from: r0tor on March 18, 2010, 08:33:59 AM
For example... ZOMG there are two complaints in the NHTSA website on 2006 Corvette Z06 stability control systems freaking out and causing the car to swerve and brake by itself
I'd imagine 2 out of the number of Z06's produced are a higher significance then 26 corollas out of the number toyota made. Where's the public outcry? Oh right, its not Toyota...
Toyota's in the spotlight because of all the other issues; primarily because of the crash last November that killed the Saylor family. Anything else is being closely scutinized and reported. It may not seem fair to Toyota fans but it's reality. If GM were under the spotlight the headlines might read
Corvette tries to kill driver by manipulating traction control.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 18, 2010, 07:55:45 AM
So it seems :huh:.
In reality, it's rather amazing that there is such a low failure rate. However, when failures, not saying the Corolla, are associated with crashes and deaths, then it gets blown out of proportion. That manufacturers deny they exist or are slow to respond causes problems for them.
Like my previous post though, it still seems like they're after Toyota for whatever reason, because at that failure, it's typically within manufacturing tolerance even for aerospace industry if I remember correctly.
Quote from: NomisR on March 18, 2010, 10:34:36 AM
Like my previous post though, it still seems like they're after Toyota for whatever reason, because at that failure, it's typically within manufacturing tolerance even for aerospace industry if I remember correctly.
You can say that 10 years ago they were after Ford. Twenty years ago they were after Audi...and a whole lot of others in between. Toyota is in the limelight because they have had people die in their cars for unexplained reasons.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 18, 2010, 04:10:25 PM
You can say that 10 years ago they were after Ford. Twenty years ago they were after Audi...and a whole lot of others in between. Toyota is in the limelight because they have had people die in their cars for unexplained reasons.
Ford issue was pretty straight forward, the Audi issue and typically with most auto related issued, I would hazard to say 99.99% of the time, the problem lies between the steering wheel and the driver's seat and not on the car itself. And pretty much, the manufacturers and most people realize that. Well, except for the politicians of course, since they need the votes.
Quote from: NomisR on March 18, 2010, 04:25:53 PM
Ford issue was pretty straight forward, the Audi issue and typically with most auto related issued, I would hazard to say 99.99% of the time, the problem lies between the steering wheel and the driver's seat and not on the car itself. And pretty much, the manufacturers and most people realize that. Well, except for the politicians of course, since they need the votes.
The people at large don't. They're dumb.
Otherwise they wouldn't all be freaking out now over an issue that will kill far less people than get eaten by sharks every year.
(Which, contrary to movies would lead you to believe, is very rare.)
oh shit, a local 13 year old was killed yesterday when the brakes on his bicycle failed.... watch out huffy!! :pullover:
Quote from: r0tor on March 19, 2010, 05:48:04 AM
oh shit, a local 13 year old was killed yesterday when the brakes on his bicycle failed.... watch out huffy!! :pullover:
In fairness to Huffy, the 13 year old was $700,000 in debt and trying to get out of his bike's lease payments.
He also ran a swingers site.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 19, 2010, 06:27:28 AM
In fairness to Huffy, the 13 year old was $700,000 in debt and trying to get out of his bike's lease payments.
He also ran a swingers site.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Feds: Prius brakes not applied at time of N.Y. crash. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011382982_toyota19.html)
Data uploaded from black box shows that brakes were not applied at the time of crash.
Though not an explicit charade like this comedic Sikes incident, it's obvious the housekeeper just doesn't want to buck up for wrecking the car.
Finally frauds and idiots are getting the press they deserve now that finally the media frenzy is starting to subside.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 19, 2010, 08:02:10 AM
Feds: Prius brakes not applied at time of N.Y. crash. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011382982_toyota19.html)
Data uploaded from black box shows that brakes were not applied at the time of crash.
Though not an explicit charade like this comedic Sikes incident, it's obvious the housekeeper just doesn't want to buck up for wrecking the car.
Finally frauds and idiots are getting the press they deserve now that finally the media frenzy is starting to subside.
Interesting. I thought Toyota was dead-set against releasing that black box information.
What more than few have been saying for a time...
Spike in Prius complaints may not be all it seems.
Experts on consumer psychology say the relentless negative media attention Toyota has received since the fall makes it much more likely that drivers will mistake anything unexpected - or even a misplaced foot - for actual danger. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2011311255_apuspriuspanic.html?prmid=obnetwork)
Quote from: Jon™ on March 19, 2010, 08:17:23 AM
Interesting. I thought Toyota was dead-set against releasing that black box information.
I guess they finally got tired of the assholes winning the propoganda war... although it will still be ignored by the general media nd public
Quote from: Jon? on March 19, 2010, 08:17:23 AM
Interesting. I thought Toyota was dead-set against releasing that black box information.
My hunch is Toyota will only let "qualified/certified" people have the ability to upload the data; meaning people who have been trained properly on how to decipher it correctly.
Imagine if in during the height of the frenzy EVERYONE had access to the data, yet only a few interpreted it incorrectly. The media storm would have been infinitely worse.
Quote from: r0tor on March 19, 2010, 08:23:35 AM
I guess they finally got tired of the assholes winning the propoganda war... although it will still be ignored by the general media nd public
Well, we've been over this already, but I always thought that not making that data available has been a PR mistake - especially if its review shows driver error. Has the info from Sike's car been released? It sounded like they were only looking at physical evidence.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 19, 2010, 08:30:33 AM
My hunch is Toyota will only let "qualified/certified" people have the ability to upload the data; meaning people who have been trained properly on how to decipher it correctly.
Imagine if in during the height of the frenzy EVERYONE had access to the data, yet only a few interpreted it incorrectly. The media storm would have been infinitely worse.
With only one system in the US that is able to pull down the results, I don't think they have too much to worry about.
Quote from: Jon™ on March 19, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
Has the info from Sike's car been released? It sounded like they were only looking at physical evidence.
As mentioned countless times, data recorders only record when an airbag is deployed and it only captures between 1-15sec of data and anything from 2-3 seonsors to everything depending on the car. Douschebag Sikes never crashed (unforunately) so there is no data like every other "unintended acceleration" incident that did not lead up to a crash.
Another wonky situation is this most publicized PR of the CHP crash that killed four in an ES350. A little Googling shows that the LE department in charge will not let Toyota have access to the car (data recorder) locking it in impound. To me this situation is still all FUBAR and doesn't make sense on many levels.
Quote from: Jon? on March 19, 2010, 08:38:35 AM
Well, we've been over this already, but I always thought that not making that data available has been a PR mistake - especially if its review shows driver error. Has the info from Sike's car been released? It sounded like they were only looking at physical evidence.
With only one system in the US that is able to pull down the results, I don't think they have too much to worry about.
They have four now. ;) Link on previous page says that they analyzed and Sikes "modulated the brake" more than 250 times before he stopped.
I ASSUME that's since he turned the car on. But that means it records much more than just a few seconds before crash.
Yet another fraud outed. The moderately publicized incident of the housekeeper in NY; turns out she lied about hitting the brakes.
According to Police Captain Anthony Marraccini, driver error caused the crash of a Prius on March 9th 2010 in Harrison N.Y. and not faulty brakes. (http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/22/driver-error-in-toyota-prius-investigation/?test=latestnews)
"The diagnostic data shows that the accelerator pedal was depressed at the time of impact and was in the idle position after impact. The pedal was returned to its normal position after impact."
One thing I would like to point out with the pedal recall: unlike every other mainstream manufacturer, Toyota made a recessed space for the pedal to sit in instead of making the floor flat.
I dunno what their engineers were thinking, but that recall with the floor mats could have been stopped before it even started if Toyota would have used some thought about how to design its foot wells. If they didn't fire the engineers who thought of that, they should have.
this seems to have been all swept under the rug now... no more media outlets will follow from fear of more egg on their face
Here's an interesting theory. Worth considering, as it's a scientifically proven fact cosmic radiation can cause these kinds of problems.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100316/BUSINESS0104/3160361/1318/Are-cosmic-rays-really-causing-Toyotas-woes
Don't jump the gun. Read the article and attachments first.
Quote from: r0tor on March 22, 2010, 05:07:25 PM
this seems to have been all swept under the rug now... no more media outlets will follow from fear of more egg on their face
Good thing it was just a rug and not an all-weather floor mat.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 23, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Here's an interesting theory. Worth considering, as it's a scientifically proven fact cosmic radiation can cause these kinds of problems.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100316/BUSINESS0104/3160361/1318/Are-cosmic-rays-really-causing-Toyotas-woes
Don't jump the gun. Read the article and attachments first.
In that case I would expect the errors to be more random.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 23, 2010, 02:21:24 PM
In that case I would expect the errors to be more random.
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 23, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Here's an interesting theory. Worth considering, as it's a scientifically proven fact cosmic radiation can cause these kinds of problems.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100316/BUSINESS0104/3160361/1318/Are-cosmic-rays-really-causing-Toyotas-woes
Don't jump the gun. Read the article and attachments first.
Do you have to wrap the whole car, or just the bits where the electronic thingies are?
(http://www.reynoldspkg.com/reynoldskitchens/catalog/images/RW_Core_Carton.jpg)
Since most electrical systems in cars that I've worked on aren't shielded from EMI I would assume that any such theories are bunk. Just IMO.
Ah, but now that I read that link this isn't EMI they're talking about. Aluminum shielding would be useless.
That said, if this were really a big deal, Toyota wouldn't be the only ones susceptible to it. You'd think we'd have seen way more bizarre failures.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 23, 2010, 02:27:40 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Why is it always throttle control? Especially since the cars affected will use different controllers. Why don't we hear of brake assistants going beserk?
Quote from: Galaxy on March 23, 2010, 02:41:14 PM
Why is it always throttle control? Especially since the cars affected will use different controllers. Why don't we hear of brake assistants going beserk?
I only know what I read in the article. Perhaps sudden acceleration is the most noticable fault. I mean how often do people use stability control or antilock brakes, for example, compared to their gas pedal.
It just dawned on me that the real problem is the Toyota drivers are actually just falling asleep at the wheel... cause well they are driving toyotas
Quote from: r0tor on March 22, 2010, 05:07:25 PM
this seems to have been all swept under the rug now... no more media outlets will follow from fear of more egg on their face
Perhaps Toyota was being crafty like a fox, and was just waiting for the media and otherwise entities other than Toyota to tell the world that it's stupid drivers not Toyota's cars that are to blame.
Quote from: r0tor on March 24, 2010, 09:39:51 AM
It just dawned on me that the real problem is the Toyota drivers are actually just falling asleep at the wheel... cause well they are driving toyotas
That's a good one! All nice and unique and what not...
Quote from: GoCougs on March 24, 2010, 10:41:09 AM
Perhaps Toyota was being crafty like a fox, and was just waiting for the media and otherwise entities other than Toyota to tell the world that it's stupid drivers not Toyota's cars that are to blame.
Or they don't really know what the fuck is wrong with their cars.
This has been an expensive ride for Toyota. Best estimates are that the cost of repairs and lost sales will be around $2,000,000,000 ith the cost of added incentives Toyota has implemented to prop up sales costing another $1,000,000,000 through the end of 2010. That's a three billion dollar hit in just 2010.
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 24, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Or they don't really know what the fuck is wrong with their cars.
Or, that they found nothing wrong.
An interesting poll, especially the Ford part.
Toyota Is Dead to 44% of U.S. Buyers
By Andrea Tse 03/26/10 - 09:57 AM EDT
NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- More than 4 of 10 Americans say that they "would definitely not buy a Toyota(TM)," according to a recent Bloomberg National Poll.
According to the poll, a full 44% of U.S. consumers say they are fully shunning Toyota, amid the automaker's massive vehicle recalls and public relations debacle. Of those 44%, 39% cited the recent recall as the reason for why they would not buy Toyota. The poll shows that 36% of the polltakers view Toyota unfavorably, while 49% or less than half of polltakers view the company favorably.
Ford(F), on the other hand, has generated significant goodwill among the public, as Toyota continues to its efforts to regain public trust. Ford was viewed favorably by 77% of polltakers, exceeding Honda(HMC) -- in second place -- by seven percentage points, according to Bloomberg.
General Motors achieved a positive rating in the poll of 57%, eight months after needing government help to stay afloat. Ford was the sole U.S. automaker not to take government aid during the recent economic downturn.
The poll, taken of 1,002 adults in the U.S. between Mar. 19 to 22, also found that the perception of Toyota correlated inversely to the respondent's age; the older the respondent, the less they liked Toyota.
Toyota's share of vehicle sales in the U.S. shrunk from 15.9% the year before to 12.8% in February, according to Bloomberg,.
Toyota to halt production at British plants
Toyota has announced it is to suspend production at its plants in Britain and France after a global sales dip in the wake of its mass safety recalls.
more... (telegraph.co.uk) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/toyota/7526989/Toyota-to-halt-production-at-British-plants.html)
Quote from: EtypeJohn on March 24, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Or they don't really know what the fuck is wrong with their cars.
In most cases, the problem is the driver, not the car.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 26, 2010, 10:04:09 PM
In most cases, the problem is the driver, not the car.
A Deep Dive Into Toyota Sudden Acceleration Accident Statshttp://bit.ly/cbkixm
(Business Insider)
Lots of old people, lots of immigrants.
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 07, 2010, 07:03:52 AM
A Deep Dive Into Toyota Sudden Acceleration Accident Stats
http://bit.ly/cbkixm
(Business Insider)
Lots of old people, lots of immigrants.
Who coincidentally would have issues with "pedal misapplication" (immigrants being new to driving and/or new to driving AT-equipped cars). And note the complaints were predominantly when starting off - stop-n-go traffic, pulling out of a driveway, etc.
The government is looking to fine Toyota for $16MM and is raising a stink about how Toyota had raised the issue of sticking pedals with European dealers a while back. However, the articles I've read is that Toyota's "issue" was as a response to complaints - again, the only "fix" was securing floor mat and installing a pedal shim (and sure enough "fixed" cars are still experiencing the problem).
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 07, 2010, 07:03:52 AM
A Deep Dive Into Toyota Sudden Acceleration Accident Stats
http://bit.ly/cbkixm
(Business Insider)
Lots of old people, lots of immigrants.
Not a surprise, Honda/Toyota cars are the car of choice for FOBs (fresh off the boat). Finding an asian of any flavor not driving one of these and at best you will find them in a Nissan.
So if it's old people and immigrants that are the problem then why aren't cars made by other manufactures having the same problems? Are they idiot proof?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/europeans_warned_of_toyota_pedals_DI50a1noEl3UL1dUZnPlCJ
In November and December, Toyota engineers examined pedals from the Corollas and were able to replicate the sticking pedal problem in two of the three cases. The engineers "concluded that the phenomenon experienced in the United States was essentially the same as the phenomenon experienced in Europe," the document said.
So Toyota actually did find a problem, so much for the theory that it was never able to replicate the problem and no problem ever existed.