I've been 'sludged.' It was bound to happen eventually, as it seems to with every Passat 1.8T owner at some point. Driving home yesterday, the STOP ENGINE, LOW OIL PRESSURE light came on. I pull over, call AAA, yada yada yada. For this one, I had it towed to the dealership because this is a well-known issue with this model/engine. Seems the engine doesn't get hot enough to burn off excess moisture in the engine oil, resulting in a sludge issue. Most people have to get their engines replaced, but that's only if they continue to drive with the light on. My engine is fine, just needs to be manually cleaned out and some hoses replaced - cost... $900.
But wait: VW extended the warranty to 8 years, Unlimited mileage on this issue. Cool! Except you need to produce every receipt for every oil change you've ever done on the car complete with a record of mileage and date. Oh yeah, even oil changes done by previous owners. If you've ever done your own oil changes, you're out of luck by default. So they won't fix my car under the warranty. They basically make it so 99% of people could never actually take part in the warranty, even if they qualify - and this is for a KNOWN DEFECT on the car that VW grew so tired of they just replaced the engine!
There are apparently no class action lawsuits on this (yet), so I'm considering letting them fix the car and immediately driving to the Small Claims Division of my county's Superior Court and filing on Volkswagen of America. I'm sure they have attorneys on retainer in NJ that would show up. When I've had to sue people for business purposes, there have always been suits against major corporations there. I'd be hoping for a settlement of some sort during the court's mandatory dispute mediation thing they do before it gets to a judge.
Has anyone here ever sued a car manufacturer?
Wow, this sucks dude.
Your problem will be, who do you actually serve with papers in such a gigantic corporation as VW USA?
Lots of cars have known problems however. Sucks, but to me this says you just gotta roll with it.
Giving themselves an "out" with the oil change documentation clause is such a dick move.
Quote from: Laconian on March 05, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
Giving themselves an "out" with the oil change documentation clause is such a dick move.
Indeed. Luckily I can document all of mine through my shop, but for any other DIYer it's kinda screwed up.
I guess this should be a lesson to all of us; even if you change your own oil, document it thoroughly so that even if this clause existed you could still possibly take them to court and prove that you did everything right.
Quote from: R-inge on March 05, 2010, 03:00:38 PM
Indeed. Luckily I can document all of mine through my shop, but for any other DIYer it's kinda screwed up.
I guess this should be a lesson to all of us; even if you change your own oil, document it thoroughly so that even if this clause existed you could still possibly take them to court and prove that you did everything right.
I asked Ford about warranty issues if I do all my own oil changes. The response I got that as long as I keep all my receipts from the auto parts store and record the mileage for each one, everything is good. Now that my warranty has run out, I don't keep shit.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 05, 2010, 02:46:11 PM
Seems the engine doesn't get hot enough to burn off excess moisture in the engine oil, resulting in a sludge issue.
I thought sludge is caused by oil being unable to withstand higher tempretures and subsequently breaking down? Full synthetic oil is much less prone to sludging then dino, or half dino oil.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 05, 2010, 03:10:52 PM
I asked Ford about warranty issues if I do all my own oil changes. The response I got that as long as I keep all my receipts from the auto parts store and record the mileage for each one, everything is good. Now that my warranty has run out, I don't keep shit.
I never even asked... After the 2nd oil change on the RSX I just started doing them myself.
I did keep all the receipts for oil/filter and recorded the mileage and date though.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 05, 2010, 04:13:56 PM
I thought sludge is caused by oil being unable to withstand higher tempretures and subsequently breaking down? Full synthetic oil is much less prone to sludging then dino, or half dino oil.
Nah, this is different. I think what happens here is that condensation creates this waxy sludge in areas of the engine where oil doesn't get very hot, usually valve covers and the such. From there it breaks off and clogs passages.
Quote from: R-inge on March 05, 2010, 04:58:18 PM
Nah, this is different. I think what happens here is that condensation creates this waxy sludge in areas of the engine where oil doesn't get very hot, usually valve covers and the such. From there it breaks off and clogs passages.
Or the oil cooled turbos heat soak the oil to much.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 05, 2010, 05:19:36 PM
Or the oil cooled turbos heat soak the oil to much.
That could be a concern, sure. I don't think that's what's going on here though. This is a cold engine oil issue, not an overheated engine oil issue.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 05, 2010, 02:54:32 PM
Your problem will be, who do you actually serve with papers in such a gigantic corporation as VW USA?
Nah, from what I understand from others who have had this problem, you serve papers to a specific office at Volkswagen of America and then also to your local dealership. I have the exact office of where to serve. That's no prob (shows how widespread this issue is).
Quote from: R-inge on March 05, 2010, 04:58:18 PM
Nah, this is different. I think what happens here is that condensation creates this waxy sludge in areas of the engine where oil doesn't get very hot, usually valve covers and the such. From there it breaks off and clogs passages.
Its actually the calcium carbonate (chalk for all intesive purposes) thats in the oil for pH control that drops out. I did some time building a rig for testing ultra high water contamination. The white goo seriously sucks to clean up!!
The sludge problem on the 1.8T engine is a well known and very old problem (5 - 6 years) and there was even a recall.
I don't see how requesting to prove that your car has been serviced as per the factory specifications and requirememnts would be a dick moove. If you don't mantain your car properly and blame the manufacturer for the problems that may arise, the dick would be you.
BTW, I've always serviced my VW cars by the dealer, so I don't have to keep any bills (not that I don't). Everything, the complete service history of my car is available on their computers and I don't have to show them anything.
Oh, and of course full-synthetic oil is adviced to be used to eleminate the issue on that engine.
Quote from: r0tor on March 08, 2010, 06:26:47 AM
Its actually the calcium carbonate (chalk for all intesive purposes) thats in the oil for pH control that drops out. I did some time building a rig for testing ultra high water contamination. The white goo seriously sucks to clean up!!
Oh ok, good to know.
Quote from: AltinD on March 08, 2010, 07:52:18 AM
Oh, and of course full-synthetic oil is adviced to be used to eleminate the issue on that engine.
Umm, the car has never run on anything but synthetic oil (as every turbo engine should), and the problem is not "eliminated."
Quote from: AltinD on March 08, 2010, 07:51:29 AM
The sludge problem on the 1.8T engine is a well known and very old problem (5 - 6 years) and there was even a recall.
I don't see how requesting to prove that your car has been serviced as per the factory specifications and requirememnts would be a dick moove. If you don't mantain your car properly and blame the manufacturer for the problems that may arise, the dick would be you.
BTW, I've always serviced my VW cars by the dealer, so I don't have to keep any bills (not that I don't). Everything, the complete service history of my car is available on their computers and I don't have to show them anything.
So much wrong with this post.
1) You can't say that the sludge problem is a "well known" and "very old problem" which necessitated recalls and then go on to say how it's my fault as a vehicle owner.
2) I did maintain my vehicle properly. The manufacturer made a defective engine with a "well known" sludge problem. They should fix it. It's not on me to "prove" anything, as they made a bad engine in the first place. And we're not talking about VW's bogus "service" interim things that replace perfectly working components in order to make $$$ for VW - we're talking about simple oil changes.
3) I don't know how things work in the UAE, but here, hardly anyone gets their vehicles serviced at a dealership outside of the warranty period because the prices are sky-high and no one would be able to afford their rates. Why would one go to a dealership for an oil change? That's insane!
We recently surveyed all of the oil changes in town, and the lowest price was actually at a dealership. This may still cost more than doing it yourself, but dealerships aren't necessarily non-competitive.
I actually go to the stealership for my oil changes as well... same price as the others and they document everything in the computer system which could potentially help in resale value and warranty work
that and its on my way home from work -shrug-
Pretty much every manufacturer requires you to keep records of maintenance to keep your warranty FWIW
Quote from: r0tor on March 08, 2010, 11:09:08 AM
I actually go to the stealership for my oil changes as well... same price as the others and they document everything in the computer system which could potentially help in resale value and warranty work
that and its on my way home from work -shrug-
Pretty much every manufacturer requires you to keep records of maintenance to keep your warranty FWIW
But this isn't a standard warranty. It's coverage of a known manufacturer's defect. I understand keeping records to some extent, but requiring every oil change receipt including ones from a previous owner of the vehicle? It's just a scam to get out of fulfilling their obligation to fix the defect THEY created.
Doesn't bother me either way. I'm here to play hardball. If they don't reasonably work with me, I'm filing against them. I'll also be filing a formal complaint with the NTSB since this issue can certainly be a safety issue since potentially, your engine can seize on the highway. Additionally, I'll be contacting my state's AG as well as its consumer affairs division.
.... I have a special extended 7 year warranty covering the exploding bombs that are the first gen RENESIS engines
It really the manufacturers responsibility to cover the work and the owners responsibility to document maintenance if they are not going to a dealer... all pretty well covered in not so fine print of the warranty letter
Quote from: r0tor on March 08, 2010, 01:39:00 PM
.... I have a special extended 7 year warranty covering the exploding bombs that are the first gen RENESIS engines
It really the manufacturers responsibility to cover the work and the owners responsibility to document maintenance if they are not going to a dealer... all pretty well covered in not so fine print of the warranty letter
All I'm saying is that you have to play hardball. If a company makes a time-bomb engine, they have to do right by their customers. After 30 years of buying Volkswagens and Audis in my family, it's especially troubling to be treated almost like a criminal in a car dealership because you didn't keep a receipt from "John's Quicky Lube" which went out of business years ago. And how are you supposed to get records from the previous owner of a car? Mine was turned in on a lease, bought by a dealership and sold to me. Should I have to track down someone who leased the car years ago and start finding his/her oil change records? It's absolute insanity.
I can see requiring something like this if your engine randomly blows up, but when there is a widely known issue with an engine that affects thousands of owners, and that exact problem happens to your car, it's on them to fix it. I know for a fact I am not letting them get away with this. I'll come to a reasonable settlement, but there is no way I'm paying 100% of this bill they want to charge me.
FWIW, I have been in touch with VW HQ in Michigan and I've been assigned a "case worker." Waiting for a call back tomorrow.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 08, 2010, 10:42:22 AM
So much wrong with this post.
1) You can't say that the sludge problem is a "well known" and "very old problem" which necessitated recalls and then go on to say how it's my fault as a vehicle owner.
2) I did maintain my vehicle properly. The manufacturer made a defective engine with a "well known" sludge problem. They should fix it. It's not on me to "prove" anything, as they made a bad engine in the first place. And we're not talking about VW's bogus "service" interim things that replace perfectly working components in order to make $$$ for VW - we're talking about simple oil changes.
3) I don't know how things work in the UAE, but here, hardly anyone gets their vehicles serviced at a dealership outside of the warranty period because the prices are sky-high and no one would be able to afford their rates. Why would one go to a dealership for an oil change? That's insane!
Where in my post did I acused or attacked you of anything???????
Sorry, Dan, about your problem. Requiring a paper trail that excludes used vehicle owners and do-it-yourselfers is wholly unreasonable.
I have a spreadsheet with one tab for each of my cars - it simply records:
date
mileage
maintenance work carried out
who did the work (even if it's "self")
I also have a hanging file for each car with receipts, invoices etc.
It's a pain in the arse to keep up but having it available does make selling the cars a lot easier when the time comes - I pin the receipts to a hard copy of the worksheet.
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 09, 2010, 07:40:07 AM
Sorry, Dan, about your problem. Requiring a paper trail that excludes used vehicle owners and do-it-yourselfers is wholly unreasonable.
I have a spreadsheet with one tab for each of my cars - it simply records:
date
mileage
maintenance work carried out
who did the work (even if it's "self")
I also have a hanging file for each car with receipts, invoices etc.
It's a pain in the arse to keep up but having it available does make selling the cars a lot easier when the time comes - I pin the receipts to a hard copy of the worksheet.
Even your spreadsheet wouldn't work with VW. I offered to let them see my bank statements showing when I got oil changes. They didn't care. They want a receipt with mileage. I explained to the gentleman from Auburn Hills, Mich. that called me today that this is unacceptable. Especially to someone from a family that has had VWs and Audis for decades - a pattern that would cease if this wasn't taken care of. He didn't care, and would authorize no warranty coverage.
Tomorrow I will paying $936 to the local dealership. Luckily, this dealership is 10 minutes from the county courthouse. I already have the papers filled out and will file against VW literally on the way home from the dealership.
Well, hopefully that will make you feel better. ;)
You don't really have an argument about keeping the receipts for oil changes, but you do about having to produce them from previous owners as well. You could fight them on that part.
UPDATE:The suit was filed today with my county's small claims division. The complaint is set to be served to VW's registered agent in New Jersey. I will post PDFs of the docs filed after the issue is resolved with another update.
QuoteYou don't really have an argument about keeping the receipts for oil changes
So you're saying an auto manufacturer should get out of repairing engine issues that could lead to accidents, fatalities and catastrophic financial losses because a person didn't save a receipt from 5 years ago at Joe's Lube Shop? I was also informed by VW that even with the receipts, the exact brand and blend of oil must be mentioned on all of those receipts and it must meet VW's specific "guidelines" for oil standards. By the way, there are some ENTIRE STATES where VW's blends of oil are actually illegal due to environmental laws, and there are really only two oils available in the entire nation that meet the exact specs.
This isn't about oil changes. It's about a company that doesn't want to admit it made a terrible mistake in placing the 1.8T in a longitudinal position and reducing its oil pan capacity to 3.9 quarts, far below most other similarly-sized engines, especially when outfitted with turbochargers. Many owners have been "sludged" by this company and this owner isn't taking it up the arse on this one.
Back to whether I have an argument or not - I did two weeks of legal research and based on legal precedents all over the country (including in my home state) I believe I am well-equipped to argue that I do, and I am in the right.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 05, 2010, 02:54:32 PM
Your problem will be, who do you actually serve with papers in such a gigantic corporation as VW USA?
Lots of cars have known problems however. Sucks, but to me this says you just gotta roll with it.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 05, 2010, 06:07:15 PM
Nah, from what I understand from others who have had this problem, you serve papers to a specific office at Volkswagen of America and then also to your local dealership. I have the exact office of where to serve. That's no prob (shows how widespread this issue is).
Yeah, before I read your last post, I was going to tell you to just look up VW's registered agent for NJ.
It should actually be really easy to serve process on a company as big as VW, because they're going to have a registered agent for service in all 50 states.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 15, 2010, 03:03:03 PM
UPDATE:
So you're saying an auto manufacturer should get out of repairing engine issues that could lead to accidents, fatalities and catastrophic financial losses because a person didn't save a receipt from 5 years ago at Joe's Lube Shop? I was also informed by VW that even with the receipts, the exact brand and blend of oil must be mentioned on all of those receipts and it must meet VW's specific "guidelines" for oil standards. By the way, there are some ENTIRE STATES where VW's blends of oil are actually illegal due to environmental laws, and there are really only two oils available in the entire nation that meet the exact specs.
This isn't about oil changes. It's about a company that doesn't want to admit it made a terrible mistake in placing the 1.8T in a longitudinal position and reducing its oil pan capacity to 3.9 quarts, far below most other similarly-sized engines, especially when outfitted with turbochargers. Many owners have been "sludged" by this company and this owner isn't taking it up the arse on this one.
Back to whether I have an argument or not - I did two weeks of legal research and based on legal precedents all over the country (including in my home state) I believe I am well-equipped to argue that I do, and I am in the right.
Keeping receipts is a perfectly reasonable thing for an manufacturer to ask for when dealing with warranties, especially when it pertains to something so essential to the part under warranty (engine oil). That's why I said you didn't have much of an argument there. However, the part about requiring specific oil that is illegal in some places is definitely an arguing point. As is the specific information on the receipt. You cannot control those things, so you cannot be blamed for failing to follow those guidelines.
If you have done the research and feel confident, go for it. I'm just saying you should check your arguments and make sure all your points are valid. VW isn't stupid and have good lawyers, I guarantee it.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 15, 2010, 06:19:26 PM
VW isn't stupid and have good lawyers, I guarantee it.
In all honesty, I highly doubt they'll waste their time sending a lawyer to litigate a $997 small claims suit, especially considering it isn't even a court of record. The most likely outcome is a settlement of some sort.