Man, BMW shouldn't even bother selling this underpowered POS in the US since a base model Honda lawnmower has more power and accelerates faster to 60 mph. :facepalm:
2011 BMW 520d: four-cylinder engine and 57.6mpg
As expected, Bmw revealed today the 2011 520d, an entry-level version of its latest sedan powered by a 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine capable to deliver an impressive fuel consumption of 57.6mpg (54.3mpg) and unrivalled emission levels of 129g/km (137g/km for automatic transmission-equipped cars).
Although many of you would believe that this engine is way too small for the new sedan, Bmw says that its 184 hp delivered at 4,000rpm and 380Nm from 1,900 to 2,750rpm are enough to push the car from 0 to 62 mph in just 8.1 seconds while the top speed achieved is 141 mph.
The engine can be mated to a manual transmission fitted with an Auto Start-Stop function but also to an eight-speed automatic transmission.
If the 520d is not enough for you, then you can choose the 530d with its 3.0-liter engine and 204 hp, the 530d with 245 hp and 44.8 mpg in combined cycle or the 535d flagship which will come with 300 hp, a naught to 62 mph time of 5.7 seconds, a top speed of 155 mph and an impressive 46.3mpg.
Or you can also choose the 528i and 523i which have a version of High Precision Direct Injection with a greater focus on efficiency delivering 36.2mpg and 37.2mpg. The most powerful version of the 5-Series is the 550i which comes with the winning twin-turbocharged 4.4-litre V8 delivering 407hp.
Link: http://www.4wheelsnews.com/2011-bmw-520d-four-cylinder-engine-and-576mpg/
BMW shouldn't sell this in the US because few people will buy it. I imagine that BMW is interested in maximizing profit, as most companies are.
It is cool tech, don't get me wrong, but like hybrid luxury cars in Europe, it just won't sell.
$50K 4 banger luxury car... the plane will not take off the treadmill
That 520D has an awesome engine. My top choice if I were to buy a new 5er.
Quote from: mzziaz on July 28, 2010, 08:41:19 AM
That 520D has an awesome engine. My top choice if I were to buy a new 5er.
I doubt you would say this if you didn't have to pay $8/gallon for gas.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 08:47:17 AM
I doubt you would say this if you didn't have to pay $8/gallon for gas.
Who doesn't want almost 60MPG?
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on July 28, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
BMW shouldn't sell this in the US because few people will buy it. I imagine that BMW is interested in maximizing profit, as most companies are.
It is cool tech, don't get me wrong, but like hybrid luxury cars in Europe, it just won't sell.
I still don't understand how they can't hand this to a good marketing firm and
not make money selling it in the US. The Prius sells amazingly well and all the marketing firm has to do is make a commercial that says "better fuel economy than a Prius, luxury you can feel good about" OR some bullshit like that. I guarantee people will buy the shit out of it after good commercials, because those are good numbers.
Why not sell it in a lighter three series? I would imagine it would be around the same cost as the base petrol version over here, and the lighter 3 would return better acceleration and consumption due to it's lower weight.
Not too long ago, 184 HP in a 3 series wasn't half bad.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 09:07:41 AM
I still don't understand how they can't hand this to a good marketing firm and not make money selling it in the US. The Prius sells amazingly well and all the marketing firm has to do is make a commercial that says "better fuel economy than a Prius, luxury you can feel good about" OR some bullshit like that. I guarantee people will buy the shit out of it after good commercials, because those are good numbers.
Ok - but to make a profit on it to pay for the additional cost of the (four cylinder) diesel engine and the costs of certifications with the EPA, you'd likely have to price it above the mid-level six-cylinder gasoline version. It's a tough sell when you have to explain why the more expensive choice makes less power. Extreme fuel economy isn't a big selling point in the luxury market.
I could see the large six cylinder diesel version coming to the US - as a volume of engines could be spread around multiple vehicles (3 series, 5 series, X3, X5, etc.)
Quote from: 3.0L V6 on July 28, 2010, 09:33:28 AM
Ok - but to make a profit on it to pay for the additional cost of the (four cylinder) diesel engine and the costs of certifications with the EPA, you'd likely have to price it above the mid-level six-cylinder gasoline version. It's a tough sell when you have to explain why the more expensive choice makes less power. Extreme fuel economy isn't a big selling point in the luxury market.
I could see the large six cylinder diesel version coming to the US - as a volume of engines could be spread around multiple vehicles (3 series, 5 series, X3, X5, etc.)
I don't believe the fuel economy--very good fuel economy at that--has really been tried in the luxury market. The people who would buy it in the Northeast and the West Coast alone would justify bringing it over.
I don't know the costs involved with the EPA.
It has less power than the similarly priced six-cylinder engine, however the six-cylinder has approximately half as good gas mileage and that is
a lot.
I think it has serious potential in the United States and those companies have
never tried that formula in the United States in the past 10 years.
Also, the large diesel engines have apparently not been selling very well (despite the fact that I've seen tons of diesel X5's, GL's and ML's :confused:) and I think it's because they're slower with only somewhat better mileage.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 08:47:17 AM
I doubt you would say this if you didn't have to pay $8/gallon for gas.
Dunno. But 184 hp in a torqey diesel isn?t bad , even in a 5er, imo.
Quote from: mzziaz on July 28, 2010, 09:46:20 AM
Dunno. But 184 hp in a torqey diesel isn?t bad , even in a 5er, imo.
They sold a bunch of 525i's (E60 I'm talkin bout) when they were out :huh:
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 09:39:48 AM
I don't believe the fuel economy--very good fuel economy at that--has really been tried in the luxury market. The people who would buy it in the Northeast and the West Coast alone would justify bringing it over.
I don't know the costs involved with the EPA.
It has less power than the similarly priced six-cylinder engine, however the six-cylinder has approximately half as good gas mileage and that is a lot.
I think it has serious potential in the United States and those companies have never tried that formula in the United States in the past 10 years.
Also, the large diesel engines have apparently not been selling very well (despite the fact that I've seen tons of diesel X5's, GL's and ML's :confused:) and I think it's because they're slower with only somewhat better mileage.
There just seems to be something fundamentally flawed in marketing it that way in America. If one wants to be green, why get a big luxury car? A 5 series, even one that gets 60MPG, doesn't have the environmental cachet of a biodiesel W123 or solar-panel roofed Prius. It's a big imposing car and just doesn't say "green". I can't see it catching on somewhere like San Fran or Park Slope.
Then in the regular luxury realm, IDK... gas mileage is important, but if you're dropping 50 large on a car it doesn't seem like gas mileage would be a big concern; especially given how small a part of the cost of ownership fuel would be. Financing would be like 700-800/mo, insurance would be w/e (150-200?) while gas, even at a low 20MPG avg @ 15K miles a year would only be like 200/mo. So financially its meh. Marketing-wise, it's slow and still has the GM diesel albatross hanging from it. As much sense as diesel makes, I just don't see it catching on in the luxury market. I think a diesel Corolla or w/e on the other hand would fly off the shelves. That is a car whose market really values gas mileage.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 09:39:48 AM
Also, the large diesel engines have apparently not been selling very well (despite the fact that I've seen tons of diesel X5's, GL's and ML's :confused:) and I think it's because they're slower with only somewhat better mileage.
How is this relevant? I mean speed or 0-60 in a friggin SUV? :facepalm:
If I want a fast car, I'll buy a fast car but an SUV to me a is working/family vehicle and speed or acceleration is completely irrelevant to me in such a car.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 10:05:32 AM
There just seems to be something fundamentally flawed in marketing it that way in America. If one wants to be green, why get a big luxury car? A 5 series, even one that gets 60MPG, doesn't have the environmental cachet of a biodiesel W123 or solar-panel roofed Prius. It's a big imposing car and just doesn't say "green". I can't see it catching on somewhere like San Fran or Park Slope.
Then in the regular luxury realm, IDK... gas mileage is important, but if you're dropping 50 large on a car it doesn't seem like gas mileage would be a big concern; especially given how small a part of the cost of ownership fuel would be. Financing would be like 700-800/mo, insurance would be w/e (150-200?) while gas, even at a low 20MPG avg @ 15K miles a year would only be like 200/mo. So financially its meh. Marketing-wise, it's slow and still has the GM diesel albatross hanging from it. As much sense as diesel makes, I just don't see it catching on in the luxury market. I think a diesel Corolla or w/e on the other hand would fly off the shelves. That is a car whose market really values gas mileage.
I know that a lot of rich people don't want to get a shittier car (Prius), but do want to "be good to the environment."
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 10:16:00 AM
How is this relevant? I mean speed or 0-60 in a friggin SUV? :facepalm:
If I want a fast car, I'll buy a fast car but an SUV to me a is working/family vehicle and speed or acceleration is completely irrelevant to me in such a car.
The same way it's relevant in a car?
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 10:26:32 AM
The same way it's relevant in a car?
The GL550 does 0-60 in what? 6.5/7 seconds and the GL320 CDI does it in the high 7s or 8 second range. What's the difference? :huh:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 10:27:26 AM
The GL550 does 0-60 in what? 6.5/7 seconds and the GL320 CDI does it in the high 7s or 8 second range. What's the difference? :huh:
Well, from this the difference would be 8-6.5=1.5 8-7=1 7-7=0
And isn't the GL550 more like 6.0? (and damn is that a fast SUV :lol:)
Same argument with the car.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 10:29:33 AM
Well, from this the difference would be 8-6.5=1.5 8-7=1 7-7=0
And isn't the GL550 more like 6.0? (and damn is that a fast SUV :lol:)
Same argument with the car.
Well, the bottom line is that the GL550 will be quicker, but the gas mileage will blow. The GL320 CDI isn't slow, and the gas mileage is better. :ohyeah:
I really don't see how a 1.5 or 2 second 0-60 delay in the GL320 CDI is a "problem". The American obsession with 0-60 / 1/4 mile is something I will probably never understand. :tounge:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 10:31:50 AM
I really don't see how a 1.5 or 2 second 0-60 delay in the GL320 CDI is a "problem". The American obsession with 0-60 / 1/4 mile is something I will probably never understand. :tounge:
Indeed.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 10:31:50 AM
Well, the bottom line is that the GL550 will be quicker, but the gas mileage will blow. The GL320 CDI isn't slow, and the gas mileage is better. :ohyeah:
I really don't see how a 1.5 or 2 second 0-60 delay in the GL320 CDI is a "problem". The American obsession with 0-60 / 1/4 mile is something I will probably never understand. :tounge:
So you don't like the feeling of being pushed back in your seat?
Of course driven like a regular person this car won't get anywhere near 58 mpg - more like 38 mpg. This car would sell worse than the 335d, which has been a disaster - BMW unlike M-B does not have a legacy of selling diesels in the US.
There's no material reason to buy a diesel in the US - the mpg vs. higher cost payback is an extended period and all attributes are noticeable worse - NVH, smell, throttle response, and acceleration.
On problem I see with the 335D is nobody really knows about it. Unlike VW and Audi I've yet to see BMW air an ad for diesel.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 28, 2010, 10:53:08 AM
Of course driven like a regular person this car won't get anywhere near 58 mpg - more like 38 mpg. This car would sell worse than the 335d, which has been a disaster - BMW unlike M-B does not have a legacy of selling diesels in the US.
There's no material reason to buy a diesel in the US - the mpg vs. higher cost payback is an extended period and all attributes are noticeable worse - NVH, smell, throttle response, and acceleration.
Extended range and thus efficiency
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on July 28, 2010, 11:04:11 AM
On problem I see with the 335D is nobody really knows about it. Unlike VW and Audi I've yet to see BMW air an ad for diesel.
Great point, people have no idea about the advantages of a diesel.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 28, 2010, 10:53:08 AM
Of course driven like a regular person this car won't get anywhere near 58 mpg - more like 38 mpg. This car would sell worse than the 335d, which has been a disaster - BMW unlike M-B does not have a legacy of selling diesels in the US.
There's no material reason to buy a diesel in the US - the mpg vs. higher cost payback is an extended period and all attributes are noticeable worse - NVH, smell, throttle response, and acceleration.
I don't know, man. I was at the BMW dealer with my dad last weekend and we were discussing the 335d. It's actually a bit cheaper than the 335i (with the tax credit), and it definitely gets better gas mileage. The torque that thing has is ridiculous, acceleration is certainly not a problem. I couldn't comment on throttle response. Smell, I don't know if that's still the issue it was in the '80s.
Then again, diesel fuel is MUCH more expensive than gasoline in the US.
QuoteThen again, diesel fuel is MUCH more expensive than gasoline in the US.
Actually, in my parts atleast, diesel is pretty much the same price as premium which is what all the gas powered BMWs require.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on July 28, 2010, 11:50:04 AM
Actually, in my parts atleast, diesel is pretty much the same price as premium which is what all the gas powered BMWs require.
It's different here, then. I can't recall exactly how much, but diesel is even more than 91-93 octane in this area.
Last time I filled up my Benz diesel was about 2.80 a gallon. People have been asking me if I'm ever going to convert it to run on bio-fuel but not sure if I want to go to every restaurant in town and collect grease.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 10:31:50 AM
Well, the bottom line is that the GL550 will be quicker, but the gas mileage will blow. The GL320 CDI isn't slow, and the gas mileage is better. :ohyeah:
I really don't see how a 1.5 or 2 second 0-60 delay in the GL320 CDI is a "problem". The American obsession with 0-60 / 1/4 mile is something I will probably never understand. :tounge:
It's not the statistics, its wondering whether or not the acceleration + performance will be adequate. How often do you load up a car with like 5 passengers and their luggage? You don't want a car that will go from just being adequate to a complete dog once it's loaded up. It doesn't help that Americans are generally fatter than Europeans either. It's a legitimate complaint.
I guarantee if European countries lifted the prohibitive laws and taxes that make gas so expensive, your engine choices would more mirror those of America and Australia. Europeans buy the smallest engines they can bear because that is what they can afford, not because that's what they want.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 28, 2010, 10:53:08 AM
Of course driven like a regular person this car won't get anywhere near 58 mpg - more like 38 mpg. This car would sell worse than the 335d, which has been a disaster - BMW unlike M-B does not have a legacy of selling diesels in the US.
There's no material reason to buy a diesel in the US - the mpg vs. higher cost payback is an extended period and all attributes are noticeable worse - NVH, smell, throttle response, and acceleration.
Good points. A diesel BMW just doesn't seem to make sense. A huge part of BMW's appeal is in its gas engines because of their sound & response. Plus the cost of diesel fluctuates more with geography & time. Even if the raw MPGs are higher the cost efficiency might not be.
I am curious to see how they would structure the pricing on this.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on July 28, 2010, 10:39:19 AM
So you don't like the feeling of being pushed back in your seat?
I do.
And even a BMW 118i with 143-horsepower can do that. I just did it an hour ago as I returned home from a night out with some friends. I don't need some GL550 to get that feeling. ;)
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on July 28, 2010, 11:04:11 AM
On problem I see with the 335D is nobody really knows about it. Unlike VW and Audi I've yet to see BMW air an ad for diesel.
I have. And I'd strongly consider a 335d had they offered it with a manual.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 12:13:01 PM
It's not the statistics, its wondering whether or not the acceleration + performance will be adequate. How often do you load up a car with like 5 passengers and their luggage? You don't want a car that will go from just being adequate to a complete dog once it's loaded up. It doesn't help that Americans are generally fatter than Europeans either. It's a legitimate complaint.
Honestly, the performance of a loaded GL320 CDI won't be any much different from a loaded up GL550 given that the extra shit people bring on board will add weight. Both engines will burn more fuel and have to work harder to compensate. The GL320 CDI and GL550 will both become slower and more sluggish if they're fully loaded/overloaded etc.
And "weak and underpowered cars" (by American standards) can perform just as well. When my sister finished college I helped her transport all her stuff from Bruchsal to M?hldorf - about 350 km worth of Autobahn driving - in her BMW 118i with 143-horsepower. The whole car was filled with stuff. Her kitchen glasses, plates etc., lamps, printer, books...HEAVY STUFF. So in the end, the whole car (trunk, rear seats and her lap) were filled with stuff and I had zero noticeable problems overtaking or merging on the highway with an overloaded car. Braking performance did suffer though.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 12:13:01 PMI guarantee if European countries lifted the prohibitive laws and taxes that make gas so expensive, your engine choices would more mirror those of America and Australia.
I don't think so. Most Europeans I know buy cars based on the performance they need, not want.
Sure, it's fun to drive a really powerful car. But even on a daily basis it becomes a pain in the ass having to constantly refill it etc. (despite theoretical cheap gas prices). We grow up with the mentality of "living within our needs".
Also, the American philosophy of "Big = Better" doesn't apply here. We don't think that way with cars and engines.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 12:13:01 PMEuropeans buy the smallest engines they can bear because that is what they can afford, not because that's what they want.
There are many extremely wealthy people in Europe who could buy a fleet of exorbitant and heavily overpriced vehicles if they wanted to - but they drive simple S350 CDI's or an E350 CDI for example. I know a filthy rich baroness who lives in a castle in my area in M?hldorf and she drives a base model Volkswagen Golf IV SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). She could buy a Veyron if she wanted to, but she drives a Golf SDI (not even a TDI). Europeans are more conservative when it comes to "showing off their wealth".
My dad could have bought an E55 AMG or an E500 - but the E320 made more sense for us. A good mix between power and fuel economy, the latter which the E55 AMG and E500 fail in.
Again, if America had European-style Draconian fuel and automotive taxation we too would be driving 150 hp E-classes and 5ers.
It makes no sense to buy such cars in America which is EXACTLY why neither M-B nor BMW offer those cars here - they'd flop something fierce.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 28, 2010, 06:17:07 PM
There are many extremely wealthy people in Europe who could buy a fleet of exorbitant and heavily overpriced vehicles if they wanted to - but they drive simple S350 CDI's or an E350 CDI for example. I know a filthy rich baroness who lives in a castle in my area in M?hldorf and she drives a base model Volkswagen Golf IV SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). She could buy a Veyron if she wanted to, but she drives a Golf SDI (not even a TDI). Europeans are more conservative when it comes to "showing off their wealth".
My dad could have bought an E55 AMG or an E500 - but the E320 made more sense for us. A good mix between power and fuel economy, the latter which the E55 AMG and E500 fail in.
This is incongruous with your focus on badges. Europeans seem extremely image conscious.
Perhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car. Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=22614.msg1369440#msg1369440 date=1280364272
This is incongruous with your focus on badges. Europeans seem extremely image conscious.
Perhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car. Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think.
My mother told me about this type of thinking. She lived in France for a short time, and the amount of pretentiousness and "I HAVE to have Chanel (ect), it doesn't matter how much it costs" is quite abundant. People will only have the best, and the most luxurious......even if they can't afford it. Women's wardrobes are smaller, but much, much higher quality.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=22614.msg1369410#msg1369410 date=1280362555
I have. And I'd strongly consider a 335d had they offered it with a manual.
I must have missed it. Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on July 28, 2010, 11:03:43 PM
I must have missed it. Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare.
:wub:
Oh yeah and about a year ago I saw a Peugeot 505 diesel parked at my school, looking at the body of that car you would've thought they pulled it out of a lake.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 28, 2010, 06:29:02 PM
Again, if America had European-style Draconian fuel and automotive taxation we too would be driving 150 hp E-classes and 5ers.
And maybe then Americans might realize that these cars are also completely adequate and not underpowered or slow. ;)
You often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. :ohyeah:
It's difficult to assess what most Europeans would choose to drive if we didn't have these laws. Again, we grow up with the mentality about "using just enough of what we need, not all of it" etc.
Quote from: Raza on July 28, 2010, 06:44:32 PM
This is incongruous with your focus on badges. Europeans seem extremely image conscious.
Brand image is big here, and many Europeans are image conscious when it comes to their cars. At the same time people are conservative in their engine choices for a number of reasons: social jealousy (big here in Germany, which also ties into people being conservative), the engine tax laws and lastly the belief in driving something that is completely adequate to their needs. Also, luxury in Europe isn't about who has the biggest engine - it's also about the brand experience (history & heritage, reputation etc.).
Social jealousy is an interesting phenomenon in Germany. Basically, people will think negatively of you if you drive a say E63 AMG, but they'll perceive you as being conservative if you show up in an E220 CDI or perhaps an E350. One of my father's friend has a small successful business with a dozen employees or so and he had a C209 CLK500 Convertible - but he had a "CLK200 Kompressor" badge mounted at the rear because he didn't want his employees to think he was bragging, showing off. With a CLK200 Kompressor, people won't bitch. With a CLK500, they're going to perceive him as a show off. It's a little hard to explain, but social jealousy is a strange factor pretty much only confined to Germany of all nations in Western Europe. :facepalm:
Quote from: Raza on July 28, 2010, 06:44:32 PMPerhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car. Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think.
I know the baroness personally. And she struck me as a conservative person who drives that Golf SDI because she doesn't want to buy a car that she won't need. She's in her mid 70s. She lives alone in her castle with a few, well, servants, I guess, but they're actually just locals who work for her, do her gardening etc.
And trust me, she's quite wealthy.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on July 28, 2010, 11:03:43 PM
I must have missed it. Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare.
http://www.luxusdiesel.de/lincoln_diesel.shtml
(http://www.luxusdiesel.de/graphic/lincolnmkvii_94_1.jpg)
:praise:
First of all, most Americans are NOT obsessed with 0-60 times. Most just want adequate acceleration for their needs. This is why MOST versions of models are sold with the base engines. I don't know the exact numbers, but, for example, I'd guess the ratio of E350s to E550s sold here is 4:1. And as for power, my X5 3.0 is a family car. I've never once felt the power was not sufficient. Why would I need, or even want, a V8 version of this car?
You will never see lots of people buying diesels or even hybrids here until gas is back over $4 gallon and stays there. $5 to $8 per gallon, and you diesels and hybrids and base models will be flying out the door.
And the inverse is true - if gas was cheap in Europe (and cars were not taxed based on engine size or CO2 or whatever, you'd all be buying more of the larger engined models....and bigger cars and even more SUVs.
I've said this a million times - people like the same shit all over the world. They only buy different stuff because of pricing/affordability.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 29, 2010, 05:21:39 AM
And maybe then Americans might realize that these cars are also completely adequate and not underpowered or slow. ;)
You often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. :ohyeah:
It's difficult to assess what most Europeans would choose to drive if we didn't have these laws. Again, we grow up with the mentality about "using just enough of what we need, not all of it" etc.
The very, very simply question remains: then why don't MB and BMW sell those cars here?
Wimmer, as we've said before (many times) those cars wouldn't sell here just because they'd be too slow with our terrible road planning. Those cars would be sitting ducks on on and off ramps on highways here.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 29, 2010, 05:21:39 AMYou often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. :ohyeah:
There's a massive selection bias at play here.
Wait when was the name changed from GermanCarZone?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 12:13:01 PM
I guarantee if European countries lifted the prohibitive laws and taxes that make gas so expensive, your engine choices would more mirror those of America and Australia.
I don't know about mainland Europe but in the UK, diesel is more expensive than gasoline. So it's not fuel prices driving sales of diesel cars here.
Lol I don't know where to start with Wim's posts.
- So Europeans play the game of going with expensive brands at all costs, but playing modesty with engine size. I think that just goes back to the prohibitive cost of fuel.
- I bet the baroness more than anything wants to hide her wealth, as paradoxically while brand choice is huge, showing off is shunned (?????)
- I still stand by my point that if Europeans could afford the gas, they would not buy 1.0L diesel Polos. Your sister's car is of adequate performance- it's faster than a Corolla/Camry most likely, and I would say those are performance benchmarks for America... not exactly blistering machines here. But for a luxury car, a truly luxury car, the standards are higher. Why pay $20K more for a Benz with the performance and equipment of a 4 banger Camry? Makes no sense. So on the luxury end the demands are higher.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 29, 2010, 09:52:14 AM
The very, very simply question remains: then why don't MB and BMW sell those cars here?
There's talk of bringing over the E250 CDI (2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel) to the US. By all accounts, it looks like it
will come over.
Quote from: thecarnut on July 29, 2010, 10:03:29 AM
Wimmer, as we've said before (many times) those cars wouldn't sell here just because they'd be too slow with our terrible road planning. Those cars would be sitting ducks on on and off ramps on highways here.
How do your trucks merge unto highways?
As if a Camry is the same vehicle as the mercedes you are comparing it to
Quote from: 850CSi on July 29, 2010, 10:37:31 AM
There's a massive selection bias at play here.
I don't see how.
Not everyone there has a German car. There are tons of people there who own Japanese, German, Korean (and German of course) cars, but they're simply being open-minded about other cars with smaller and weaker engines. The bottom line is that these people feel that these cars are completely satisfactory from a performance point of view.
And not everyone cares about performance. Fuel economy and other features carry far more weight with some people than silly little 0-60 numbers.
Quote from: 68_427 on July 29, 2010, 11:07:40 AM
Wait when was the name changed from GermanCarZone?
Some website was about to sue GermanCarZone because of some name infringements. Therefore the name was changed to GermanCarForum. :ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 29, 2010, 05:53:25 PM
- So Europeans play the game of going with expensive brands at all costs, but playing modesty with engine size. I think that just goes back to the prohibitive cost of fuel.
I understand that luxury in America is about excess and therefore the performance of the car has to be excessive. In Europe this isn't the case. People are more conservative to begin with and also choose their engine based on "their needs" (and of course finances).
Also, if the cost of fuel is so high here, how do you explain the fact that there are many people here who drive "overpowered" luxury cars? There are also many filthy rich people here who could buy say an S600 and the fuel bills wouldn't dent their finances one bit - but they drive an S350 CDI instead. In this regard, finances play a secondary role. These people simply buy the luxury car and the engine that best suits their needs. A luxury car here is already a very prestigious item because of the badge.
Many Europeans buy cars based on their performance needs, that includes luxury cars. A small engine in a luxury car here is nothing to be ashamed about. A weaker engine doesn't make it any less luxurious than the same car with a bigger engine. Furthermore, what good is a more powerful engine that uses more fuel and is a bit quicker? I mean both the weaker and more powerful, say an E-Class E220 CDI and E500, will be limited to the same speed limits on the roads, highways etc. Both cars already have a top speed in excess of 125 mph and you can hardly drive faster than that on most Autobahns these days given the heavy traffic. Am I really going to shed out more money for an E500 because it reaches 125 mph faster than an E220 CDI? Fuck no. I'll buy the E220 CDI, which isn't a slow car, because its performance is completely satisfactory, it gets good gas mileage and it can almost reach a 155 mph top speed and is also cheaper to run than the E500. And I am literally driving the same car as the E500, just with a weaker engine. Big deal.
Oh, and nobody here will give a shit if a cheaper VW Golf GTI is faster to 100 km/h than their E220 CDI (aka "A Honda Accord V6 is faster to 60 mph than [Insert Overpriced European Luxury Car Here]..."). If somebody was so silly as to care about such a silly thing, they wouldn't buy an E220 CDI. It's that simple.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 06:06:16 AM
I understand that luxury in America is about excess and therefore the performance of the car has to be excessive. In Europe this isn't the case. People are more conservative to begin with and also choose their engine based on "their needs" (and of course finances).
Most American luxury car buyers go with the smallest engine available. It just so happens that our small engine choices are your big engine choices, primarily because gasoline is about 3x cheaper here.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 06:06:16 AMAlso, if the cost of fuel is so high here, how do you explain the fact that there are many people here who drive "overpowered" luxury cars? There are also many filthy rich people here who could buy say an S600 and the fuel bills wouldn't dent their finances one bit - but they drive an S350 CDI instead. In this regard, finances play a secondary role. These people simply buy the luxury car and the engine that best suits their needs. A luxury car here is already a very prestigious item because of the badge.
It has nothing to do with their needs. You already said why Europeans go with smaller engines even when they can afford more- they don't want to be subject to the jealous rage of the proletariat. I can't find the post but just recently you talked about some business owner who debadged his CLK500 to a 200 Kompressor to not be subject to bad treatment from his employees. That's the real driver here, not 'adequate performance'. If that were the case they would just buy a Renault Twingo or w/e.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 06:06:16 AMMany Europeans buy cars based on their performance needs, that includes luxury cars. A small engine in a luxury car here is nothing to be ashamed about. A weaker engine doesn't make it any less luxurious than the same car with a bigger engine. Furthermore, what good is a more powerful engine that uses more fuel and is a bit quicker? I mean both the weaker and more powerful, say an E-Class E220 CDI and E500, will be limited to the same speed limits on the roads, highways etc. Both cars already have a top speed in excess of 125 mph and you can hardly drive faster than that on most Autobahns these days given the heavy traffic. Am I really going to shed out more money for an E500 because it reaches 125 mph faster than an E220 CDI? Fuck no. I'll buy the E220 CDI, which isn't a slow car, because its performance is completely satisfactory, it gets good gas mileage and it can almost reach a 155 mph top speed and is also cheaper to run than the E500. And I am literally driving the same car as the E500, just with a weaker engine. Big deal.
Again we know you guys have better off ramps than we do which is fine. But to discount the fact that excess power is just as valid a luxury as heated leather seating is silly. Breathtaking + effortless performance is a luxury too and is a big part of why Americans like cars like the E class and 5 series over something relatively anemic like an automatic 4 banger Camry. When there's not much distinction beyond a brand name, car-wise Americans won't pay that premium.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 06:06:16 AMOh, and nobody here will give a shit if a cheaper VW Golf GTI is faster to 100 km/h than their E220 CDI (aka "A Honda Accord V6 is faster to 60 mph than [Insert Overpriced European Luxury Car Here]..."). If somebody was so silly as to care about such a silly thing, they wouldn't buy an E220 CDI. It's that simple.
Obviously as nobody would cross shop the two cars. But if someone were cross shopping an E220 CDI, and happened to test drive an equally priced GS350 & saw that the GS had infinitely better performance + engine response you don't think that would make an impression? While I know in Europe foreign cars are taxed to high hell to be made uncompetitive, here the playing field is level, gas is cheap and performance matters.
Like I keep saying... if petrol wasn't taxed to $8 a gallon, and Europeans weren't so violently jealous of success, your automotive landscape would look a lot like ours. I guarantee it :ohyeah:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 05:51:47 AM
There's talk of bringing over the E250 CDI (2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel) to the US. By all accounts, it looks like it will come over.
Nah, there will be no diesel-4 E-class in America; and why haven't M-B and BMW sold their cheapo diesels here in the recent past?
The extremely few American who will buy a 150 hp diesel E-class or 5er are of the same mindset of the people who buy hybrids; they are doing so ignoring the financial and performance attributes of the product - meaning; they're paying more and getting less.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 06:06:16 AM
I understand that luxury in America is about excess
I'm going to stop you right there. Luxury everywhere is about excess. Otherwise it's not luxury.
lux?u?ry [luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-] Show IPA noun, plural -ries, adjective
?noun
1.a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.3.a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
4.a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.
5.a foolish or worthless form of self-indulgence: the luxury of self-pity.
I don't know how many more times I can so clearly state this to you.
Is luxury defined as the norm in Europe? But luxury has to be practical... Wim you're not making sense
Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".
Quote from: 2o6 on July 30, 2010, 02:00:20 PM
Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".
Ya, i think you are on to something. At least for some Europeans I believe part of luxury is high quailty and less is more, as opposed to just more of everything.
Another cultural difference touched upon in this thread, is that some Europeans (especially Northern Yurps/Germanics) find it a bit....vulgar to flaunt one?s wealth if one is truly well off. You will often find very rich people driving pretty ordinary cars. If they get premium cars, they will often choose medium sized engines or at least a badge delete, for example as opposed to someone from the aspiring working class. They will gladly drive a (older) S600 with large V12 badges on it.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 30, 2010, 05:52:16 AM
How do your trucks merge unto highways?
Very slowly, by making everyone else slow down for them.
It wouldn't be very fun if EVERYONE drove a car that accelerated at the rate of a truck, would it?
Quote from: mzziaz on July 30, 2010, 03:08:38 PM
Ya, i think you are on to something. At least for some Europeans I believe part of luxury is high quailty and less is more, as opposed to just more of everything.
Another cultural difference touched upon in this thread, is that some Europeans (especially Northern Yurps/Germanics) find it a bit....vulgar to flaunt one?s wealth if one is truly well off. You will often find very rich people driving pretty ordinary cars. If they get premium cars, they will often choose medium sized engines or at least a badge delete, for example as opposed to someone from the aspiring working class. They will gladly drive a (older) S600 with large V12 badges on it.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 30, 2010, 02:00:20 PM
Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".
So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?
Quote from: Onslaught on July 31, 2010, 07:36:23 AM
So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?
Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 31, 2010, 11:12:33 AM
Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.
Both.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 31, 2010, 11:12:33 AM
Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.
Both.
I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.
Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 31, 2010, 12:29:58 PM
I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.
Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.
The ES is not an E-class competitor in either price or target audience. The ES is an entry level premium midsize and is significantly less expensive than the E-class (to the tune of $12,000). It's more in line with the C-class in price, but it's not really a C-class competitor either (Lexus has the IS for that). The ES is really Lexus' answer to American entry level premium cars like the Buick Lucerne or Lincoln MKZ (as well as the Acura TL). The GS350/460 is Lexus's answer to the Mercedes E-class.
Quote from: Onslaught on July 31, 2010, 07:36:23 AM
So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?
It's the percieved quality that counts, not the actual one. If MB loses it's percieved quality, they have lost the European market, imo.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 28, 2010, 07:16:27 AM
$50K 4 banger luxury car... the plane will not take off the treadmill
i think the environmentalists, especially in hollywood would gobble these up, just like they have with the prius. for me, if i could afford a $50,000.00 automobile with all other expenses i have (i.e. student loans), i could easily cough up the extra dough for lower mpg's and premium gasoline. if priced about $38,000.00, it might be worth being seen in a bimmer.
Quote from: Atomic on July 31, 2010, 06:17:50 PM
i think the environmentalists, especially in hollywood would gobble these up, just like they have with the prius. for me, if i could afford a $50,000.00 automobile with all other expenses i have (i.e. student loans), i could easily cough up the extra dough for lower mpg's and premium gasoline. if priced about $38,000.00, it might be worth being seen in a bimmer.
Celebs already don't buy big diesels... they def won't buy small ones
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 31, 2010, 12:29:58 PM
I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.
Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.
You're right.
But there is every way in hell that a GS350 will.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 31, 2010, 11:12:33 AM
Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.
They go hand-in-hand in my book.
... that's because you lack experience on the former
Quote from: AltinD on August 01, 2010, 12:07:59 PM
... that's because you lack experience on the former
Please explain how an unreliable car can still be a high quality car?
Quote from: MX793 on August 01, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
Please explain how an unreliable car can still be a high quality car?
Ask an owner of a Benz from the late 90s
AltinD I answer your question with a question... what good is a high quality car that isn't reliable?
Reliability is a hit or miss.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 01, 2010, 12:59:30 PM
Ask an owner of a Benz from the late 90s
AltinD I answer your question with a question... what good is a high quality car that isn't reliable?
A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.
An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 01, 2010, 01:40:58 PM
A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.
An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.
Obviously craftsmanship, fit and finish, and materials aren't good if shits failing to work right.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on August 01, 2010, 01:42:47 PM
Obviously craftsmanship, fit and finish, and materials aren't good if shits failing to work right.
What most of Europe cares about is the look and feel of the product.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 01, 2010, 01:53:35 PM
What most of Europe cares about is the look and feel of the product.
There's more to craftsmanship, quality, fit and finish, and materials than look and feel :rolleyes:
Quote from: HotRodPilot on August 01, 2010, 01:55:51 PM
There's more to craftsmanship, quality, fit and finish, and materials than look and feel :rolleyes:
But that's what most of Europe cares about.
People in America want more of a value oriented, reliable product. They don't care if the quality of the product suffers.
Quote from: AltinD on August 01, 2010, 01:27:27 PM
Reliability is a hit or miss.
Not really. If you're talking individual car to individual car there is some degree of chance, but chance plays only a very very small part in reliability of a model line as a whole. E.g., there are some models of car that you're far more likely to have problems with than others. Modern design and manufacturing processes have led to a very high level of repeatability and consistency from one car to the next on the assembly line. While there's still the odd chance that a bad apple makes it through, the chances are very very small and one or two bad examples does not result in an entire model line being considered unreliable. It's only when there are consistently problems with a particular model that it can be considered unreliable. There are ultimately 4 primary sources of poor reliability, 3 of which are controllable by the manufacturer of the vehicle.
1) Poor maintenance practices by the owner or by a previous owner: This is out of the manufacturer's hands. A neglected vehicle is going to have more problems over time than a well cared for vehicle. This also is not model dependent and is really a case-by-case scenario and not pertinent to the discussion at hand.
2) Poor engineering/design: A poorly designed vehicle may use materials that aren't strong enough or pieces that aren't thick enough to bear the loads they are subjected to every day, resulting in premature failure. This is the sort of thing that results in widespread problems for an entire model line and is a quality issue.
3) Poor assembly or manufacturing practices: A vehicle that is put together with little attention to detail may suffer from reliability issues and premature failures. Bolts not tightened properly can come loose, causing pieces to fall off or parts to break. Parts not installed correctly can also break or wear out prematurely as a result. This is a quality control issue where poor control on the line can result in widespread issues throughout a model line, giving a particular model a reputation for being unreliable. Sure, it's possible that a small percentage of vehicles produced will find their way out of the factory with a loose bolt, but that can largely be controlled and minimized by good quality control practices.
4) Use of sub-par or low quality components and materials: The use of cheap steel that is prone to premature fatigue failure, or the use of sensors and electronic components (window and seat motors, for example) that are prone to premature or frequent failure can result in an entire model line that is prone to frequent problems related to these components. This is also a quality control issue. As with the manufacturing processes, there are bound to be a few components that slip through that fail prematurely, but when the percentage of failures grows too large, it becomes a model-wide reliability issue that should be addressed by quality control (such as finding alternative suppliers or working with current suppliers to improve their own quality control).
In other words, what makes one model of vehicle more or less reliable than another comes down to quality and thus an unreliable vehicle cannot also be a high quality vehicle. The very source of the unreliability is a lack of quality.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 01, 2010, 01:40:58 PM
A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.
An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.
A car with low quality, depending on what part of the car suffers from low quality, can be reliable. But a car that is unreliable cannot be considered high quality. The very reason why it is unreliable is due to a lapse in quality (shoddy or poorly made electrics, bad design, etc). A high quality car is of high quality throughout (meaning both the parts you see and the parts you don't). A car with a fantastically put together interior but with shoddy, trouble-prone electricals or engine problems is no higher quality than a car with a crappy and cheap interior but a bulletproof drivetrain. The difference is that one has quality problems that are plainly clear to the eye while the other suffers from poor quality under the skin.
Quote from: AltinD on August 01, 2010, 01:27:27 PM
Reliability is a hit or miss.
With German cars.
They really have you guys conditioned....
Quote from: AltinD on August 01, 2010, 12:07:59 PM
... that's because you lack experience on the former
Well I don't have personal experience because I have a brain. But I know and have been around many people who don't have a brain and still buy them. You can have a nice dash, good body lines and all that shit and in the end of the day if the car has to be worked on all the time and you couldn't trust it to take you across country without a problem then it's not a well crafted car in my book.
Good gods these European H&HTM threads are exhausting.
It's nationalism, not because of "luxury" or "quality."
It should also be noted neither BMW nor MB can build a car as good as an Accord or Camry for TWICE the price.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 01, 2010, 09:04:35 PM
Good gods these European H&HTM threads are exhausting.
It's nationalism, not because of "luxury" or "quality."
It should also be noted neither BMW nor MB can build a car as good as an Accord or Camry for TWICE the price.
Good is subjective. In the used realm I'd rather try my hand at a 330i or w/e than a boring ass Camry. Only newish Accord worth considering by an enthusiast is the TSX or 6-6 coupe.
Launch drive by CarPoint:
Traditionally, carmakers launch a new car by throwing in the biggest engines, fitting the cabins with as many juicy options as they can carry and stuffing massive, camera-friendly wheels and tyres beneath them.
BMW has broken the mould with its 5 Series Touring (that's 'wagon' to you and me) by launching its executive load lugger with just a 2.0-litre turbodiesel and a six-speed manual gearbox. And virtually no cabin fruit whatsoever.
And it's worked.
Instead of fiddling with new toys or (usually) complaining about the ride quality the bigger tyres bring, we just got to appreciate the best looking, best riding and most spacious version of the 5 Series money can buy.
And, what's more, BMW Australia has decided that this is an engine that Australians are ready to buy, even though it's not quite been game enough to announce it with a stick shift.
It's easy enough to figure out where the 5 Series Touring sits in the BMW range. Where the 7 Series is the luxury flagship (and was the first on this architecture), the 5 Series GT is the, umm, something or other and the 5 Series sedan is the technical powerhouse of the group, the Touring is the one that delivers all the prestige and all the practicality.
In Europe, at least, it will outsell the sedan because it's the 'big' man's SUV -- capable of crossing the continent with better handling and better fuel economy while giving away nothing in interior space. While it can't hope to outsell the sedan in Australia, it should find a reasonable following, not least because it's actually far better looking, with its cleaner rear lines and raked fifth door.
But The 5 Touring has a position in the wider world, too, because it has the longest wheelbase of any luxury wagon, which helps to make it look sleeker and lower and also helps its ride.
Mechanically, it's largely similar to the sedan -- though the wheelbase is longer and it rides on the GT's rear air suspension -- but it's eminently more practical. For starters, there's 560 litres of cargo space, full of curry hooks, dividers and practical touches. That can fold out to 1670 litres if you fold the simple-to-flick 40:20:40 rear seat. Or you can mix and match with whatever combination will suit the length and width of the load you're carrying.
So far, so good, because that's all stuff the sedan can't do. It has other tricks in its arsenal as well, because the rear glass opens separately to the tailgate (if you want it to) and the luggage cover automatically closes when the tailgate does.
The real good stuff is inside and it's the first 5 Series that's as good in the back as it is in the front, thanks to an 11-degree backrest angle adjustment range and a touch more legroom.
The 520d's four-cylinder diesel has been seen before, but never carrying this much metal. It's a job it shoulders manfully, too, even if 135kW of power doesn't sound like quite enough to cope with the 1710kg of kerb mass.
While it's never promising to be spritely, it does get along pretty nicely, especially once you're rolling. There is, after all, 380Nm of torque arriving at just 1900rpm (the six-cylinder diesel available in the sedan has 540, which should be enough for anybody) and, while it gets to 100km/h in 8.3 seconds, it feels nicer when you need to punch to get around the traffic.
It's not the smoothest four-cylinder diesel doing the prestige car rounds (Audi's 2.0-litre four pot probably is the pick) and it's not the strongest (the Benz probably is), but it's a good compromise between the two. Though, for Australians accustomed to more punch, it still won't be enough for most.
Get yourself a bigger engine, though, and you're still stuck with the 70-litre fuel tank and you'll be sticking a nozzle in it more frequently. With the 2.0-litre engine, it at least stretches that to a combined 6.2L/100km (we got better than that on the launch), while it officially emits 135 grams of CO2.
The 3.0-litre diesel pushes that out by nearly 20 per cent (though it does have another 45kW).
The 5 Touring's handling isn't as crisp as its three-box brother, but it isn't bad and it never feels like it's almost five metres long. Instead, its wheelbase (32mm shy of three metres) means it feels composed and relaxed and so do you when you're inside it, even when it's doing its 222km top speed.
It can fling around bends when it has to and it will do it quickly and with dignity, but the key word for anything to do with the way it eats bad roads is "nonchalance".
Besides that, it carries over much of the interior good and bad parts from the sedan, so it's probably enough to say that it's a good car as it is, even if it doesn't quite go hard enough. With the 3.0-litre diesel or either of its initial straight-six petrol offerings, though, it will be just charming.
http://www.carpoint.com.au/reviews/2010/medium-passenger/bmw/5-series/bmw-520d-touring-20276 (http://www.carpoint.com.au/reviews/2010/medium-passenger/bmw/5-series/bmw-520d-touring-20276)
So, rated for a combined 38mpg in Oz.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 30, 2010, 09:11:01 AM
Most American luxury car buyers go with the smallest engine available. It just so happens that our small engine choices are your big engine choices, primarily because gasoline is about 3x cheaper here.
Then it's about time that more choices are offered in the US for the US consumer. Mercedes is bringing over the E250 CDI it seems, which is a newly-built 2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel. The same engine found in the E200 CDI and E220 CDI, just more powerful.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 30, 2010, 09:11:01 AMIt has nothing to do with their needs. You already said why Europeans go with smaller engines even when they can afford more- they don't want to be subject to the jealous rage of the proletariat. I can't find the post but just recently you talked about some business owner who debadged his CLK500 to a 200 Kompressor to not be subject to bad treatment from his employees. That's the real driver here, not 'adequate performance'. If that were the case they would just buy a Renault Twingo or w/e.
He had his CLK500 debadged to a CLK200 Kompressor so his employees wouldn't view him as someone who spends his money on expensive cars. To me this is silly as a simple CLK200 Kompressor is already an expensive car. But, social jealousy is a big thing in Germany, a phenomenon I can't explain. It just exists here.
Also, any real enthusiast will know this "CLK200 Kompressor" is bogus since the CLK500 has a nice V8 sound when being started up. Incidentally, this guy is now retired and now drives a Porsche Panamera Turbo. :ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 30, 2010, 09:11:01 AMObviously as nobody would cross shop the two cars. But if someone were cross shopping an E220 CDI, and happened to test drive an equally priced GS350 & saw that the GS had infinitely better performance + engine response you don't think that would make an impression? While I know in Europe foreign cars are taxed to high hell to be made uncompetitive, here the playing field is level, gas is cheap and performance matters.
First off, someone shopping for an E220 CDI will be looking at gas mileage. The performance of the E220 CDI is for European considerations "very good". It's the most popular E-Class model by far - always has been since the days of the W210 and W211 (well over 50% of W210/W211 E-Class sales have been E220 CDI's). I've driven the W210 and W211 E220 CDI's and I can honestly say that I found the performance to be very good. It's not a sports car, but it's not slow or lethargic by any means.
E220 CDI vs GS350? GS350 will win in performance and refinement and features. The E220 CDI can be individualized on a level that no Lexus really can though.
The real competitor to the GS350 is the E350, and at the moment the GS350 will have the more powerful engine, but it's not like the E350 isn't weak. Furthermore, "the most horsepower" isn't as important here as it seems to be in the US where a base model luxury car is apparently not a luxury car if a simple Honda Accord V6 has more horsepower... :mask:
Then again, the GS350 sells so poorly here it's not even funny. The GS460 isn't sold here anymore to my knowledge and the GS450h - well I've only seen them in Lexus showrooms, never on the streets. Someone who's shopping for a luxury car here will want something with a name - not everyone, but most. The Lexus name here means squat. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar etc. are the luxury brands people tend to eye.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 30, 2010, 09:11:01 AMLike I keep saying... if petrol wasn't taxed to $8 a gallon, and Europeans weren't so violently jealous of success, your automotive landscape would look a lot like ours. I guarantee it :ohyeah:
I honestly don't think so. I'll say it again: Europeans are a bit more conservative also more ecologically focus. Taking care of the environment is big over here and many people try to do their part by either taking public transportation or buying a car with the performance to suit their needs. I'm not saying that we don't dream about cheaper gas and perhaps more powerful cars - but when it comes down to it, I think (from experience) that most people will remain realistic and make a conscious choice when it comes to what they drive.
Quote from: MX793 on July 31, 2010, 12:54:45 PM
The ES is not an E-class competitor in either price or target audience. The ES is an entry level premium midsize and is significantly less expensive than the E-class (to the tune of $12,000). It's more in line with the C-class in price, but it's not really a C-class competitor either (Lexus has the IS for that). The ES is really Lexus' answer to American entry level premium cars like the Buick Lucerne or Lincoln MKZ (as well as the Acura TL). The GS350/460 is Lexus's answer to the Mercedes E-class.
I know. :ohyeah:
Sportyaccordy just brought up the ES vs GS argument. And as much as I dislike the ES, I think it's a better choice than the GS since it offers more room and is more comfortable. The GS seems to be a car looking for a mission (not very sporty nor not very comfortable).
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 02, 2010, 11:22:34 AM
Then it's about time that more choices are offered in the US for the US consumer. Mercedes is bringing over the E250 CDI it seems, which is a newly-built 2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel. The same engine found in the E200 CDI and E220 CDI, just more powerful.
We will see how that does. There are oddballs like my dad who would buy this car but I can't see something like an E250 CDI overtaking the E350 as the most popular E class here. Diesel Benzes haven't done well here since the oil embargo, which again brought gas prices up to European levels.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 02, 2010, 11:22:34 AM
He had his CLK500 debadged to a CLK200 Kompressor so his employees wouldn't view him as someone who spends his money on expensive cars. To me this is silly as a simple CLK200 Kompressor is already an expensive car. But, social jealousy is a big thing in Germany, a phenomenon I can't explain. It just exists here.
Also, any real enthusiast will know this "CLK200 Kompressor" is bogus since the CLK500 has a nice V8 sound when being started up.
I'm sure that social jealousy plays a big part in purchases. As you said before there are many people who could afford bigger engines but choose not to. Glad he got that Panamera though; I just hope he doesn't debadge it to a 3.0 diesel or w/e.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 02, 2010, 11:22:34 AM
First off, someone shopping for an E220 CDI will be looking at gas mileage. The performance of the E220 CDI is for European considerations "very good". It's the most popular E-Class model by far - always has been since the days of the W210 and W211 (well over 50% of W210/W211 E-Class sales have been E220 CDI's). I've driven the W210 and W211 E220 CDI's and I can honestly say that I found the performance to be very good. It's not a sports car, but it's not slow or lethargic by any means.
I'm sure the E220 CDI is great by European standards, but in America, where an equivalent car would be an E350 with a low 14 sec quarter mile and truly effortless performance I don't think the E220 CDI would cut it. Americans buy luxury because of what luxury cars have to offer over stuff like Accords. Benzes do have great feel, nice interiors and just a sense of high quality, but in a country where you can get a Genesis V8 for like 40K or a M45 for like 45K a 4 banger E class at what will prob be at least 50K is a tough, tough sell, esp when you factor in how much more it will be to get basic things like leather, a sunroof, a cd player, power windows etc from MB. As paradoxical as it sounds value is a big thing for Americans and a diesel E class doesn't have it.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 02, 2010, 11:22:34 AME220 CDI vs GS350? GS350 will win in performance and refinement and features. The E220 CDI can be individualized on a level that no Lexus really can though.
The real competitor to the GS350 is the E350, and at the moment the GS350 will have the more powerful engine, but it's not like the E350 isn't weak. Furthermore, "the most horsepower" isn't as important here as it seems to be in the US where a base model luxury car is apparently not a luxury car if a simple Honda Accord V6 has more horsepower... :mask:
Then again, the GS350 sells so poorly here it's not even funny. The GS460 isn't sold here anymore to my knowledge and the GS450h - well I've only seen them in Lexus showrooms, never on the streets. Someone who's shopping for a luxury car here will want something with a name - not everyone, but most. The Lexus name here means squat. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar etc. are the luxury brands people tend to eye.
As I mentioned before, there are a ton of things working against foreign cars in Germany. Lexus doesn't have any engines that would work for your car market. How many non diesel E classes get sold? And aren't there heavy taxes on non German cars? You couple those two things together and it's clear to see why the Lexus wouldn't sell in Germany, regardless of whether or not it's a bad car or it has no history or w/e. The odds are stacked against it.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 02, 2010, 11:22:34 AMI honestly don't think so. I'll say it again: Europeans are a bit more conservative also more ecologically focus. Taking care of the environment is big over here and many people try to do their part by either taking public transportation or buying a car with the performance to suit their needs. I'm not saying that we don't dream about cheaper gas and perhaps more powerful cars - but when it comes down to it, I think (from experience) that most people will remain realistic and make a conscious choice when it comes to what they drive.
I guess there's no way to tell really, but if it's of any relevance diesel only became popular in the US during the oil embargo in the late 70s. Once gas dipped back down to normal levels it was back to the big turbo V8 family sedans
And as far as the ES vs GS vs E class or w/e, I look at the avg luxury car driver being someone like my dad. He knows a few things about cars but has no interest in performance or feel. What does his car do? It tells his patients 'i am a decent doctor as i make decent doctor money'. It's quiet, it's relatively comfortable, has above average performance and has a higher sense of occasion than a Camry. Interestingly enough, so did his I35, which is Nissan's ES. So in that context, while I admit Benzes do have a bit more appeal, he also values reliability & ease of use over many other things, and a car like the ES would better serve him than a more cramped + expensive E class. America's sales to a large degree reflect how good cars really are, because aside from some gas guzzler taxes the gov't doesn't have much say in what cars people drive (tax wise).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 09:15:55 AM
Good is subjective. In the used realm I'd rather try my hand at a 330i or w/e than a boring ass Camry. Only newish Accord worth considering by an enthusiast is the TSX or 6-6 coupe.
The point is "good" being of value and reliable. The Germans simply can't do it.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 03, 2010, 01:23:19 AM
The point is "good" being of value and reliable. The Germans simply can't do it.
Uhm, Skoda comes to mind.
Skoda is from the Czech Republic but is owned by VW.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on August 03, 2010, 07:48:09 AM
Skoda is from the Czech Republic but is owned by VW.
And they're all either reskinned and rebadged VWs or based heavily on VWs.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 03, 2010, 03:55:31 AM
Uhm, Skoda comes to mind.
Doesn't SEAT do the same thing?
Quote from: GoCougs on August 03, 2010, 01:23:19 AM
The point is "good" being of value and reliable. The Germans simply can't do it.
I would say the latest crop of VWs fit the bill. Most lower end German cars are not that bad, and a huge part of their reputation was built on how solid their cars USED to be.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 03, 2010, 08:15:01 AM
Doesn't SEAT do the same thing?
Yeah, kind of. I little bit more pricey than a Skoda, and supposedly a bit sportier.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 01, 2010, 09:04:35 PM
Good gods these European H&HTM threads are exhausting.
It's nationalism, not because of "luxury" or "quality."
It should also be noted neither BMW nor MB can build a car as good as an Accord or Camry for TWICE the price.
On both counts, what the fuck are you talking about.
I realise the second point was probably trying to bait Wimmer, but still, come on.
Some points I'd like to make which directly or indirectly address what has been discussed.
- Europe is a continent consisting of a diverse mix of countries. Whilst there is much common ground, each state has its own distinct culture and own distinct requirements. Thus to generalise about what the European market wants is futile. Yes, the USA might have the area/population of many European countries put together, but much more diversity exists here.
- In countries where fuel is expensive, of course this is going to limit the appeal of cars which use a lot of fuel in comparison to more fuel efficient models. This is NOT JUST because of running costs. Other reasons I can think of:
The reason fuel is expensive in many European states is taxation/fuel duty. People don't necessarily want to give all their money straight back to the government, on principle.
Cars which are less efficient are also taxed more in purchase in some countries (UK being one). So ditto.
Some people want to care for the environment and don't wish to drive something that is perceived as hurting the environment.
Most importantly IMO, resale. Because of the aforementioned issues, it is often much harder to sell-on less fuel efficient models.
- Reliability is still a consideration for UK buyers. We have a JD Powers survey here which tests the reliability of 3 year-old cars, with results published annually. Cars perceived/proven to have poor reliability (French and Italian cars) have lower resale value than those perceived to have good reliability (Japanese/German cars). This is reflected in low initial purchase prices and poor resale values.
- On the other hand, UK motorists do fewer miles than the average US motorist. So new car buyers will rarely reach such large mileages, making reliability/service intervals/life of components less of a concern.
- Many cars sold by 'luxury' marques in the UK are company cars. These are leased by the company (using a leasing agent usually) and given to the employee for 3-4 years. The cost of the lease and insurance, tax and servicing is met by the employer. The employer may expense fuel, or it may be paid for by the employee, or commonly, the employers pays the employee a fuel allowance. In the latter cases it is in the interest of the employee to drive an efficient car.
- Company cars in the UK are classed as a taxable benefit. The tax is payable by the employee and is directly based on emissions and purchase price. It is therefore beneficial for that employee to choose a lower-priced, emissions friendly BMW 320d than a 320i petrol.
- Forthcoming EU legislation places a limit on each manufacturer's 'fleet' emissions (average Co2 emissions across the range). That means it is in the interest of manufacturers to sell lower-powered, lower-emitting vehicles or otherwise face financial penalties.
- A basic one - a lot of people don't actually know that much about cars. They don't know what the difference between an Audi A5 2.0 and an Audi S5 V8 is. All the know is they look cool driving an Audi A5 and they feel smug because everyone knows how cool and expensive and awesome Germany luxury car is. Why wouldn't they just buy the 2.0 which looks the same to 90% of people, and spend the money they save on options/booze/holidays?
- Luxury is about excess and quality IMO. And both things are relative. A four cylinder E-Class is not as 'luxurious' as an E500 but it's still a luxury car relative to many other cars you can buy.
- We all behave in a way that is influenced/dictated by compromise. We just compromise in different areas.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 01:42:00 PM
I'm sure the E220 CDI is great by European standards, but in America, where an equivalent car would be an E350 with a low 14 sec quarter mile and truly effortless performance I don't think the E220 CDI would cut it. Americans buy luxury because of what luxury cars have to offer over stuff like Accords. Benzes do have great feel, nice interiors and just a sense of high quality, but in a country where you can get a Genesis V8 for like 40K or a M45 for like 45K a 4 banger E class at what will prob be at least 50K is a tough, tough sell, esp when you factor in how much more it will be to get basic things like leather, a sunroof, a cd player, power windows etc from MB. As paradoxical as it sounds value is a big thing for Americans and a diesel E class doesn't have it.
Quote from: Raza on July 30, 2010, 01:36:26 PM
I'm going to stop you right there. Luxury everywhere is about excess. Otherwise it's not luxury.
lux?u?ry [luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-] Show IPA noun, plural -ries, adjective
?noun
1.a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.
3.a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
4.a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.
5.a foolish or worthless form of self-indulgence: the luxury of self-pity.
I don't know how many more times I can so clearly state this to you.
So is luxury about value, or not?
Like I said it's all compromise.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 03, 2010, 10:45:45 AM
So is luxury about value, or not?
Like I said it's all compromise.
Luxury isn't about value. Value is a necessity.
However, someone spending just $40-50K on a car is of course going to make compromises, because they don't have the ability to do otherwise.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 03, 2010, 10:13:40 AM
On both counts, what the fuck are you talking about.
I realise the second point was probably trying to bait Wimmer, but still, come on.
A subject matter of which you apparently need additional education. Specific inquiries encouraged.
Well nick would you agree that if not for the various hoops in place (gas tax, displacement tax, luxury tax etc), Western Europeans (Germany, France, Italy, GB etc) would choose bigger engines? My whole point is that yes, while Europeans are probably more environmentally conscious, the big driver in the engine choices made are more economic/political (i.e., Europeans are taxed into making certain choices) than personal.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 03, 2010, 12:45:43 PM
A subject matter of which you apparently need additional education. Specific inquiries encouraged.
What you see as a "good" car isn't a universal definition.
I think this whole, "Europeans are generally a very conservative culture," is a bunch of bull. In fact I think it is exactly the opposite. For centuries, European cultures have generally been much more extravagant than the United States. In fact the US was founded on principals of egalitarianism, largely in a reaction to European excess and class systems.
I think Wimmer has a picture in his mind that all Americans drive around in large cars with V8 engines, and this simply isn't true. Your average American is driving around in a 4-cylinder Accord, Camry, Corolla, or Civic. They live within their means and they're humble, down-to-earth people. They don't "flaunt" their "wealth." They're just trying to make do and get by.
Mercedes, BMW, and Audi are full-service marques in Europe compared to their market position in America. This is obvious and we all know it. They sell many more cars over there, at lower price points to a more diverse demographic.
4-cylinder or diesel E-Classes have nothing to do with "conservative culture." If anything, IT IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE." More middle class people are buying Mercedes and BMWs in Europe because they WANT to flaunt their success. They WANT to show everyone they can afford a luxury car. They WANT to be seen wearing, driving, eating, and drinking the best of the best. They have ALWAYS been more concerned with that sort of thing than Americans.
Now, there are a lot of other factors that go into it too, from fuel taxes and geography, to national loyalty.
And Wimmer, I'm not trying to pick on you, this is just something I've been thinking about for the past week while reading this thread. I think you have some good insights in here, but I think your love for MB is causing you to find ways to rationalize some of the snobbishness associated with the brand. And understand, I don't think it's wrong to buy a Mercedes because it's a cool, expensive car. I think that's just fine.
But don't tell me that Europeans are socially conservative. They are obviously just as flashy as Americans.
For proof, look no further than those amazing threads you create of all the cool cars in your hometown. You can literally just walk out your door and start taking pictures of AMGs, Porsche Turbos, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Bentleys, etc, etc, etc... Obviously THOSE people have no problem showing off their riches. They're obviously in the minority, but they're also in the minority in the US. And as to your example of the rich Countess who drives normal cars, I think you'll find a lot of similar people in the States. I know several very wealthy people who drive around in a Camcord or a Suburban.
I drive a large car with 5 cylinders and a sub compact with a V8 so count me in as not very average at all.
Wimmer coming to America would almost make for a movie worthy experience
I can imagine the utter terror & disappointment that would come to Wimmer entering a non descript shopping center parking lot. He'd be hard pressed to find a V6 Camry, let alone a 13 second anything. Most Americans push pretty tame hardware as Tave said. I'm sure in Germany the Benz/BMW/Audi per capita is incredibly high... way higher than even in affluent US cities.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 03, 2010, 08:14:24 PM
Wimmer coming to America would almost make for a movie worthy experience
I can imagine the utter terror & disappointment that would come to Wimmer entering a non descript shopping center parking lot. He'd be hard pressed to find a V6 Camry, let alone a 13 second anything. Most Americans push pretty tame hardware as Tave said. I'm sure in Germany the Benz/BMW/Audi per capita is incredibly high... way higher than even in affluent US cities.
A lot of Americans drive SUVs and pickup trucks.
Quote from: MX793 on August 03, 2010, 08:25:02 PM
A lot of Americans drive SUVs and pickup trucks.
And most American's drive the SUV's with the smaller motors.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 01:42:00 PM
We will see how that does. There are oddballs like my dad who would buy this car but I can't see something like an E250 CDI overtaking the E350 as the most popular E class here. Diesel Benzes haven't done well here since the oil embargo, which again brought gas prices up to European levels.
Times are changing. From what I gather, many Americans are waking up and realizing that luxury doesn't have to be about performance. Plus, Mercedes has a great reputation when it comes to diesels. I think Mercedes can have an easier time selling their diesels in the US than BMW for instance.
An E250 CDI will appeal to those who want an E-Class and nothing else but don't need the performance of the E350 etc. The good gas mileage is an extra bonus.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 01:42:00 PMI'm sure that social jealousy plays a big part in purchases. As you said before there are many people who could afford bigger engines but choose not to. Glad he got that Panamera though; I just hope he doesn't debadge it to a 3.0 diesel or w/e.
As far as I know he left it as it is, since he's retired and probably has no more contact with his former employees. Either that or you can't "lower debadge" a Panamera anyway. :tounge:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 01:42:00 PMI'm sure the E220 CDI is great by European standards, but in America, where an equivalent car would be an E350 with a low 14 sec quarter mile and truly effortless performance I don't think the E220 CDI would cut it. Americans buy luxury because of what luxury cars have to offer over stuff like Accords. Benzes do have great feel, nice interiors and just a sense of high quality, but in a country where you can get a Genesis V8 for like 40K or a M45 for like 45K a 4 banger E class at what will prob be at least 50K is a tough, tough sell, esp when you factor in how much more it will be to get basic things like leather, a sunroof, a cd player, power windows etc from MB. As paradoxical as it sounds value is a big thing for Americans and a diesel E class doesn't have it.
What exactly is "effortless performance"? I assume that means merging unto a highway and midrange acceleration (overtaking). The E220 CDI does this very well. Like I said, I've driven the W210 E220 CDI and W211 E220 CDI (including on the Autobahn) and these things were impressive in that regard. The new W212 E220 CDI has a completely new engine that is more refined, faster and more frugal than the old 2.2-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel engine it replaces, which saw service amongst other in the E220 CDI W210/W211. The E250 CDI is a more "performance oriented" version of the E220 CDI. Same engine, just more power and more responsive and faster.
And why should a Mercedes E class cost the same as a Hyundai Genesis? Hyundai is taking the value route, which works. I don't want to go down this route again but the Mercedes badge has history and heritage, which to many luxury buyers makes the car "special" as it satisfies their need for a true luxury brand etc. For these people paying an extra whatever is worth it. Besides, if you're shopping for an expensive luxury car money shouldn't be an issue. For Mercedes to adjust the E-Class prices to fit that of the Genesis seems silly to me. The E-Class has defining qualities which make it appealing and account for its popularity. There are people out there willing to pay top money for an E-Class and not a fully-loaded and cheaper Hyundai Genesis.
Lexus could come up with an ultra luxury brand to rival Bentley or Rolls Royce today. It can be competitive and well equipped, but it's not a Rolls Royce or Bentley. Get what I mean? The clients in this market are probably very conservative as well as old school and status conscious. Brand prestige matters the most.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 02, 2010, 01:42:00 PMAs I mentioned before, there are a ton of things working against foreign cars in Germany. Lexus doesn't have any engines that would work for your car market. How many non diesel E classes get sold? And aren't there heavy taxes on non German cars? You couple those two things together and it's clear to see why the Lexus wouldn't sell in Germany, regardless of whether or not it's a bad car or it has no history or w/e. The odds are stacked against it.
Car taxation here works on a basis of engine capacity and horsepower output as well as emissions. If your car is very powerful, has a big engine and spits out a lot of CO2 emissions, have fun paying higher taxes. A Daewoo Matiz owner has to pay 15 Euros a year for all these criteria whereas a Dodge Viper owner has to pay 900 Euros a year for the same criteria. It doesn't matter if the car is German or Japanese. Then, there's the extra tax if your car is a diesel. Owning a diesel here makes sense if you drive a lot (say over 15,000-20,000 km a year) and need the fuel economy and you break even sooner.
Non-diesel E-Classes are also popular. I don't have the figures right now but most sales probably go to the E200 CGI, E250 CGI and then the E350. E500's are rare here. An AMG E-Class is very rare.
Quote from: Tave on August 03, 2010, 05:03:46 PM
4-cylinder or diesel E-Classes have nothing to do with "conservative culture." If anything, IT IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE." More middle class people are buying Mercedes and BMWs in Europe because they WANT to flaunt their success. They WANT to show everyone they can afford a luxury car. They WANT to be seen wearing, driving, eating, and drinking the best of the best. They have ALWAYS been more concerned with that sort of thing than Americans.
This is a little tricky and difficult to explain. As is probably already known, the E-Class handles a number of jobs in Europe: taxi, police car, armored limousine, hearse, ambulance and of course premium car. The premium car aspect of the E-Class is the most diverse and confusing aspect to explain. You have stripper E-Classes and fully loaded E-Classes (it's the same with the A6/5er by the way) and these all appeal to different people - who want a Mercedes or a Mercedes E-Class. How the car is equipped depends on the needs of the person considering it.
Many older people here buy 4-cylinder E-Classes etc. because, let's be realistic here, it's a good car. In my region of Germany, in the province, you see many older people buying say an E220 CDI with a tow hook at the rear. They use this car to tow trailers or their mobile homes when they go on vacation. And they want an efficient engine in a premium car. That's the gist of it, basically.
Our own 2002 E320 is probably by American standards, a stripper. We have a sunroof, 4-Zone climate control, 3-way memory seats, APS-50 navigation (no map, just arrows and distance numbers) and 50-50 cloth-MB-Tex seats (front and back:
see photo). That's it. And my family doesn't need anything else in this car. My dad ticked off the extra options he thought we'd need and use. Of all of these we hardly use the 4-Zone climate control - in fact we shouldn't have ordered it (it's a gimmick anyway) and just relied on the normal A/C.
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4536/e3205.jpg)
As silly as it sounds, this is one reason why even luxury cars here come not fully loaded. People want to individualize/customize their rides with the features they want and will use. These day of course, there are some options you need in order to have any luck selling the car later on (automatic transmission, A/C etc.).
Quote from: Tave on August 03, 2010, 05:03:46 PMAnd Wimmer, I'm not trying to pick on you, this is just something I've been thinking about for the past week while reading this thread. I think you have some good insights in here, but I think your love for MB is causing you to find ways to rationalize some of the snobbishness associated with the brand. And understand, I don't think it's wrong to buy a Mercedes because it's a cool, expensive car. I think that's just fine.
No offense taken. I like MB, but I ain't blind or a complete fanboy.
It's difficult to explain something that one can only understand when they've lived in Europe for awhile and see how things work here. Likewise, in order to understand the American fascination with performance, I'd need to spend a few months or years in the US and experience the culture.
But to say it again, a luxury car here is also defined by the badge. Why do I spend a lot of money on a BMW or a Mercedes? Because it's a BMW/Mercedes. The badge means something. The badge tells a story everyone knows, respects, desires etc. Often, not always, but often, buying a luxury car here is an emotional thing and an appealing badge can help shape and further that emotion to the point where someone will WANT the car. I don't think I need to get into Lexus + emotion in Europe. :tounge:
Quote from: Tave on August 03, 2010, 05:03:46 PMBut don't tell me that Europeans are socially conservative. They are obviously just as flashy as Americans.
I use the words "most/some" in a lot of my posts when it comes to this. I am not trying to generalize these people as with such a topic it is difficult to come up with a completely 100% accurate answer.
Every culture has a mix of people who are conservative or who want to flaunt their wealth. If you go into downtown Munich, you'll see the wealthy elite of this city. I'll put it this way. Half of them ride around in luxury cars with smaller engines while the other half "go all the way" and get the "real thing", as Americans would call it. The most people, a Mercedes is a Mercedes. A BMW is a BMW. It doesn't matter if it's an M3 or a 320i or an E200 CDI or an E63 AMG. It's a luxury car and the only thing that is different is the engine and some features.
Quote from: Tave on August 03, 2010, 05:03:46 PMFor proof, look no further than those amazing threads you create of all the cool cars in your hometown. You can literally just walk out your door and start taking pictures of AMGs, Porsche Turbos, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Bentleys, etc, etc, etc... Obviously THOSE people have no problem showing off their riches. They're obviously in the minority, but they're also in the minority in the US. And as to your example of the rich Countess who drives normal cars, I think you'll find a lot of similar people in the States. I know several very wealthy people who drive around in a Camcord or a Suburban.
Again, Munich has a high concentration of celebrities and wealthy people, who naturally, drive exorbitant cars. They are indeed in the minority but all you need to do is walk down to the the Max-Josef-Platz / Maximilianstra?e (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilianstra%C3%9Fe_%28Munich%29) where the expensive shops are located. This is where they hang out - and drive down to with their cars. Not all of them have the M or AMG version but also drive a normal say 523i or E350 etc.
The common people or upper middle class who drive premium cars tend to be more conservative with their choices. Nick mentioned some great insights into what also makes them go for such cars (resale value etc.).
Quote from: GoCougs on August 03, 2010, 01:23:19 AM
The point is "good" being of value and reliable. The Germans simply can't do it.
When did this whole "German cars are unreliable" crap become so popular? Oh yeah, the Internet. :facepalm:
The German brands didn't get to where they are by building poor quality cars. Quality suffered a setback in the mid-1990s to early 2000s, probably due to reasons of chaotic conditions inside Germany (where many firms wanted to cut back on costs and such) as well as competition from literally volume brands like Lexus.
As far as I know, the only really reliable Japanese brands were always Toyota and Honda followed to an extent by Nissan and Mitsubishi. The rest? Average.
Value? Why does everything have to be about value? I've never heard anyone complain about a Rolex not being great value. I don't see how a BMW or Benz or Bentley should be "great value". We're not talking about gussied up Toyota's or Nissan's here that, let's be realistic, cannot ask the prestige prices that their Europeans rivals do. That's the reason they take the value route. That's one of their means of being competitive. Furthermore, the Japanese have always been about value-for-money. It works for them. The European brands have done very well despite being expensive or overpriced relative to their recently introduced competition.
Also, correct me if I am wrong but I think Japan still keeps their currency artificially weak by buying boatloads of American Dollars. This makes their products in the US
cheaper than say, oh the Europeans for example.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AM
I've never heard anyone complain about a Rolex not being great value.
A Rolex will last a whole hell of a lot longer than any car will.
Also, Tave is completely right.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AM
When did this whole "German cars are unreliable" crap become so popular? Oh yeah, the Internet. :facepalm:
Actually the whole "German cars are unreliable" thing came up from people's experiences with the cars and long term reliability reports. The proof is in the pudding- a W220 that commanded 1.5-2x the price of a comparably equipped LS400-430 now costs about the same or less in the used car market. Reliable cars hold value. Temporary, unreliable status symbols generally don't.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AMThe German brands didn't get to where they are by building poor quality cars. Quality suffered a setback in the mid-1990s to early 2000s, probably due to reasons of chaotic conditions inside Germany (where many firms wanted to cut back on costs and such) as well as competition from literally volume brands like Lexus.
This is true. There are still fleets of W123 & W124s running in 3rd world countries like Ghana. However in the mid-late 90s the Germans abandoned quality for profitability and technology. Cars like the W220, with their Airmatic suspensions and COMAND control centers are just too expensive to keep running out of warranty, which is why they are so cheap. You can get a 2000-2002 W220 for 2-3 thousand more than a same year Honda Accord. Terrible depreciation.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AMAs far as I know, the only really reliable Japanese brands were always Toyota and Honda followed to an extent by Nissan and Mitsubishi. The rest? Average.
I don't think any German marque has been hailed as reliable in the US since the 80s. And what other Japanese brands are there? Daihatsu?
Even the Koreans have passed the Germans in reliability.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AMValue? Why does everything have to be about value? I've never heard anyone complain about a Rolex not being great value. I don't see how a BMW or Benz or Bentley should be "great value". We're not talking about gussied up Toyota's or Nissan's here that, let's be realistic, cannot ask the prestige prices that their Europeans rivals do. That's the reason they take the value route. That's one of their means of being competitive. Furthermore, the Japanese have always been about value-for-money. It works for them. The European brands have done very well despite being expensive or overpriced relative to their recently introduced competition.
If you were talking about one of the solid Benzes of the 70s or the no-nonsense driver's car BMWs of the 80s-90s you'd have a point. BMW still has the sport sedan segment locked down, but they face stiff competition from Infiniti, who offers 9/10ths the driving experience at 7/10ths the price, without raping you for options. There was a time when German marques really did offer significantly higher quality than the competition; however, now the playing fields are relatively even, with the Japanese offering great + cheaper alternatives and the Germans having slipped in quality and design.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:57:56 AMAlso, correct me if I am wrong but I think Japan still keeps their currency artificially weak by buying boatloads of American Dollars. This makes their products in the US cheaper than say, oh the Europeans for example.
I think you're making stuff up. What I will say though is that companies like Toyota have been known to eat a loss on a car just to gain market share. This supposedly happened with the first Lexus LS, and definitely happened with the Prius. Some view it as unfair, but I don't see why- if other car companies had the cash and means to invest and significantly lock down market segments they would do the same thing. This isn't to say Lexus hasn't slipped a bit as well- they haven't gone the super niche route, but their main appeal is in value over everything else. However they still offer a product that is not much further behind what the Germans sell.
I STILL think the reasons why Germans buy the cars they do is tied to
- heavy taxing on luxury and displacement, making small diesel engines popular choices
- heavy taxing on imports, making Japanese cars uncompetitive
- nationalism
- social jealousy
- social status associated with said brands ("yes its an A-class, but it's a Mercedes!)
If any of those things have no influence or are not true, I wanna know, but that's what it seems to be from what I've read + heard. It has NOTHING to do with the actual cars themselves, just the social & economic parameters of the German auto market. If not, companies like Lexus, Acura and Infiniti would not have been able to get a strong hold on the markets in America, because it would make no sense to get them over German alternatives.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 03, 2010, 12:48:13 PM
Well nick would you agree that if not for the various hoops in place (gas tax, displacement tax, luxury tax etc), Western Europeans (Germany, France, Italy, GB etc) would choose bigger engines? My whole point is that yes, while Europeans are probably more environmentally conscious, the big driver in the engine choices made are more economic/political (i.e., Europeans are taxed into making certain choices) than personal.
Somewhat, yes. Though don't forget geography - specifically, the distances drivers cover and the type of roads they drive on.
I feel that the American appetite for large, powerful engines descends from those land yachts of yesterday which were designed to cruise effortlessly down long, straight highways. [/stereotype]
In the UK, we have few straight roads, we make shorter journeys and spend less time in our cars.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 03, 2010, 12:45:43 PM
A subject matter of which you apparently need additional education. Specific inquiries encouraged.
Read my post about the car market on this side of the Atlantic and then tell me this is about nationalism.
Or continue to completely ignore it and look like you have no argument at all.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 05:47:37 AM
This is a little tricky and difficult to explain. As is probably already known, the E-Class handles a number of jobs in Europe: taxi, police car, armored limousine, hearse, ambulance and of course premium car. The premium car aspect of the E-Class is the most diverse and confusing aspect to explain. You have stripper E-Classes and fully loaded E-Classes (it's the same with the A6/5er by the way) and these all appeal to different people - who want a Mercedes or a Mercedes E-Class. How the car is equipped depends on the needs of the person considering it.
Many older people here buy 4-cylinder E-Classes etc. because, let's be realistic here, it's a good car. In my region of Germany, in the province, you see many older people buying say an E220 CDI with a tow hook at the rear. They use this car to tow trailers or their mobile homes when they go on vacation. And they want an efficient engine in a premium car. That's the gist of it, basically.
Our own 2002 E320 is probably by American standards, a stripper. We have a sunroof, 4-Zone climate control, 3-way memory seats, APS-50 navigation (no map, just arrows and distance numbers) and 50-50 cloth-MB-Tex seats (front and back: see photo). That's it. And my family doesn't need anything else in this car. My dad ticked off the extra options he thought we'd need and use. Of all of these we hardly use the 4-Zone climate control - in fact we shouldn't have ordered it (it's a gimmick anyway) and just relied on the normal A/C.
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4536/e3205.jpg)
As silly as it sounds, this is one reason why even luxury cars here come not fully loaded. People want to individualize/customize their rides with the features they want and will use. These day of course, there are some options you need in order to have any luck selling the car later on (automatic transmission, A/C etc.).
No offense taken. I like MB, but I ain't blind or a complete fanboy.
It's difficult to explain something that one can only understand when they've lived in Europe for awhile and see how things work here. Likewise, in order to understand the American fascination with performance, I'd need to spend a few months or years in the US and experience the culture.
But to say it again, a luxury car here is also defined by the badge. Why do I spend a lot of money on a BMW or a Mercedes? Because it's a BMW/Mercedes. The badge means something. The badge tells a story everyone knows, respects, desires etc. Often, not always, but often, buying a luxury car here is an emotional thing and an appealing badge can help shape and further that emotion to the point where someone will WANT the car. I don't think I need to get into Lexus + emotion in Europe. :tounge:
I use the words "most/some" in a lot of my posts when it comes to this. I am not trying to generalize these people as with such a topic it is difficult to come up with a completely 100% accurate answer.
Every culture has a mix of people who are conservative or who want to flaunt their wealth. If you go into downtown Munich, you'll see the wealthy elite of this city. I'll put it this way. Half of them ride around in luxury cars with smaller engines while the other half "go all the way" and get the "real thing", as Americans would call it. The most people, a Mercedes is a Mercedes. A BMW is a BMW. It doesn't matter if it's an M3 or a 320i or an E200 CDI or an E63 AMG. It's a luxury car and the only thing that is different is the engine and some features.
Again, Munich has a high concentration of celebrities and wealthy people, who naturally, drive exorbitant cars. They are indeed in the minority but all you need to do is walk down to the the Max-Josef-Platz / Maximilianstra?e (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilianstra%C3%9Fe_%28Munich%29) where the expensive shops are located. This is where they hang out - and drive down to with their cars. Not all of them have the M or AMG version but also drive a normal say 523i or E350 etc.
The common people or upper middle class who drive premium cars tend to be more conservative with their choices. Nick mentioned some great insights into what also makes them go for such cars (resale value etc.).
Can you stop saying Europe this, Europe that. Germany is not the only country in Europe!
Your point about luxury cars is a case in point. In the UK for example, the 5er comes standard with leather. You can't buy 'stripper' versions of these types of cars.
There are similarities between European markets but also many differences.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AM
Actually the whole "German cars are unreliable" thing came up from people's experiences with the cars and long term reliability reports. The proof is in the pudding- a W220 that commanded 1.5-2x the price of a comparably equipped LS400-430 now costs about the same or less in the used car market. Reliable cars hold value. Temporary, unreliable status symbols generally don't.
The early W220s were problematic and suffered from rust issues after a few years in colder climatic zones. AFAIK the facelifted versions had many of these bugs sorted out and hence are more desirable than the first-generation W220s.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMI don't think any German marque has been hailed as reliable in the US since the 80s.
Have the Diet Coke cans grown in size that they destroy the small cup holders in European cars or what? :facepalm: :devil:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMHowever in the mid-late 90s the Germans abandoned quality for profitability and technology.
You make it sound as if this happened on purpose. What kind of firm purposefully abandons core values for their product? What really happened was simple cost-cutting. R&D times were shortened and less funding was given to various departments. As a result product development and testing times were shortened and not all bugs could be worked out.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMCars like the W220, with their Airmatic suspensions and COMAND control centers are just too expensive to keep running out of warranty, which is why they are so cheap. You can get a 2000-2002 W220 for 2-3 thousand more than a same year Honda Accord. Terrible depreciation.
Name me one air-suspension that is 100% reliable? I don't know of any air-suspension that is 100% trouble-free. Air-suspensions have to be used in order to function properly. AFAIK, leaving the car sitting for a week can cause the suspension to sag and attain damage. It was like this on the Citroen pneumatic suspensions as well as the 450SEL 6.9, which came standard with a hydropneumatic air-suspension.
An air-suspension = high maintenance. And there's really no big difference between the comfort qualities of the normal suspension and Airmatic. Airmatic is just a silly little option which Americans must have because they need every conceivable bullshit feature in their luxury car. :devil: <--- Airmatic wasn't very popular in Germany according to AMS. I guess people remembered the Citroen's and 450SEL 6.9 with their air-suspensions. The 450SEL 6.9 was a reliable car, but it was also high maintenance because of certain features (suspension).
I've driven the W211 E500 with Airmatic and right after that an E270 CDI with the normal suspension. I could not come up with any reason to get the Airmatic option. The E270 CDI was just as comfortable as the E500 with Airmatic and the handling seemed a bit better to me given that the engine upfront weighed less. Airmatic is a gimmicky feature.
The guy I'm meeting up with next week has an R129 SL600 with Airmatic which he recently had to fix. Apparently it was working fine before he had the car standing in his garage for the winter without using it. The message is clear. Airmatic = bullshit feature. It doesn't do anything for the comfort but adds to maintenance costs.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMIf you were talking about one of the solid Benzes of the 70s or the no-nonsense driver's car BMWs of the 80s-90s you'd have a point. BMW still has the sport sedan segment locked down, but they face stiff competition from Infiniti, who offers 9/10ths the driving experience at 7/10ths the price, without raping you for options. There was a time when German marques really did offer significantly higher quality than the competition; however, now the playing fields are relatively even, with the Japanese offering great + cheaper alternatives and the Germans having slipped in quality and design.
Why do Americans insist on having every possible bullshit feature in their luxury car even if they will never use them?
I honestly prefer the European setup which allows people to select the features they want. If you're shopping for a European luxury car in the first place money shouldn't be a problem. If you want value, go get a rebadged Toyota called Lexus. It's that simple.
European luxury cars have always had terrible value, then and now. That's not likely going to change anytime soon - and still they sell well. These days your basic European entry-level luxury car already comes with the most common features every normal person will ever need (and much more). Whatever else people want, they can order. It's called individualization/customization - something you can't do on a Lexus, which makes them even more boring since they're all the same - literally. :evildude:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMI think you're making stuff up. What I will say though is that companies like Toyota have been known to eat a loss on a car just to gain market share. This supposedly happened with the first Lexus LS, and definitely happened with the Prius. Some view it as unfair, but I don't see why- if other car companies had the cash and means to invest and significantly lock down market segments they would do the same thing. This isn't to say Lexus hasn't slipped a bit as well- they haven't gone the super niche route, but their main appeal is in value over everything else. However they still offer a product that is not much further behind what the Germans sell.
I'm not making this up at all. This was an unfair trade policy for which Japan was consistently criticized. It's well documented. My question is if they still do it.
German/European labor is expensive first of all. The raw materials also cost money and so does electricity etc. And lastly, the German marques practice prestige pricing. Why?
Because they can and because people are willing to pay. They have the history and heritage to back it up and let's be honest, their products are good. If you ask me, the prices are more or less justified.
Would an overpriced Lexus sell as well as an overpriced Mercedes? Probably not. The pricing strategy of Lexus can only go so far. In fact here in Europe some Lexus cars are already more expensive than their BMW or MB competition. Lexus raised prices here because they apparently have the history and heritage to compete with Mercedes. Yep... :facepalm:
And yes, it's very likely that Toyota sold the first Lexus LS400s at a loss for the sole purpose of gaining market share. I always suspected this. They could afford to do it. It's just like Coca Cola. They sell their products in certain Pepsi-dominated markets at a loss for the sole reason to gain market share. They can afford to do this. Don't forget that Toyota had tons of loyal buyers who moved up to a Lexus from their Avalon's or Camry's. This isn't the case in Europe. Loyal Toyota customers here either stay with Toyota or migrate to a luxury brand that isn't called Lexus (Source: AMS 2008).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMI STILL think the reasons why Germans buy the cars they do is tied to
- heavy taxing on luxury and displacement, making small diesel engines popular choices
None of the Japanese or American luxury brands have made any serious effort to adapt to the European market. It's no surprise they'll lack appeal and thus won't sell well.
And again, the Lexus badge means jack shit here. Most people here want the luxury car they'll buy to have a badge that means something. The Lexus badge here means "expensive poseur Toyota". <---- I'm exaggerating of course. :devil:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AM- heavy taxing on imports, making Japanese cars uncompetitive
The taxation on foreign cars is so small it doesn't really affect their sales. Japanese cars are still affordable and offer great value-for-money in Europe. They're still cheaper than their European rivals in most cases.
What's the problem with the import taxes then? :huh:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AM- nationalism
Well duh. We're proud people after all who believe in our products.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AM- social jealousy
And realism. If I live in the city, do I really need an E63 AMG or should I go for a Smart?
Social jealousy is a big factor. Then again some people don't give a damn and buy what they like. Let people say nasty things behind their back, they don't care. :ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AM- social status associated with said brands ("yes its an A-class, but it's a Mercedes!)
Cars like the A-Class sell more on the fact that they're practical, safe, roomy and have a high payload capacity which makes them ideal for European cities where space and parking space are at a premium. This is one reason why I have the little BMW 118i with me here in Munich because it's an ideal city car. The fact that the A-Class is from Mercedes is a bonus to shoppers because that means the car is a quality vehicle, safe etc.
Look at this:
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-AClass_2005_photo_43.jpg)
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-AClass_2005_photo_42.jpg)
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-AClass_2005_photo_48.jpg)
I think your typical American would go to their nearest Ford dealership and buy an Excursion to transport this stuff, eh? :evildude:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 07:21:06 AMIf any of those things have no influence or are not true, I wanna know, but that's what it seems to be from what I've read + heard. It has NOTHING to do with the actual cars themselves, just the social & economic parameters of the German auto market. If not, companies like Lexus, Acura and Infiniti would not have been able to get a strong hold on the markets in America, because it would make no sense to get them over German alternatives.
Lexus and Infiniti don't do well here because:
-badge (means nothing here except overpriced Toyota/Nissan)
-lack of smaller engines / diesels (fuel efficient alternatives)
-lack of competitive lineup (no convertibles, station wagons etc.)
-low dealership distribution
-expensive to run (mainly fuel costs / engine capacity and power taxation)
-no cheaper trim options
Then there might be other factors which are smaller and trivial such as design for example. The German brands have all these fields perfectly covered. They're perfectly adapted to their home markets unlike their Japanese rivals.
I mean how does Lexus want to compete in Europe with this weak lineup:
IS220d/IS250
GS350/GS450h
LS460/LS600h
RX350/450h
SC430
If you look at the different engine options and vehicles etc. that the Germans offer, it's a no brainer why Lexus isn't a consideration here. Lexus has no SLK/Z4/TT competitor for instance. There's no estate version of the IS and GS and the RX and LS don't come with really fuel-efficient options. The SC430 is....nevermind.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 04, 2010, 04:01:57 PM
Can you stop saying Europe this, Europe that. Germany is not the only country in Europe!
I've often stated that when I talk about "Europeans" I don't want to generalize.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 04, 2010, 04:01:57 PMYour point about luxury cars is a case in point. In the UK for example, the 5er comes standard with leather. You can't buy 'stripper' versions of these types of cars.
I guess the UK has higher expectations in that regard.
Quote from: Raza on August 04, 2010, 06:56:25 AM
A Rolex will last a whole hell of a lot longer than any car will.
Why buy an overpriced Rolex when you can get a great value-for-money Seiko for much less which even imitates the design of a Rolex? Hell, just go to Hong Kong and buy a fake Rolex!
Some people want the real deal. It's the same with cars. Some have a preference for Mercedes, some for Lexus.
These posts are getting too complex.
The Germans used to make reliable cars. Then they started piling on features to keep up with the Japanese when the LS400 came out, but the problem was they couldn't match the Japanese in features. For better or worse, Americans like their features, and the Germans can't seem to make them w/o serious problems. MB should never have released Airmatic if it was so problematic.
Likewise, it's understandable that they had to cut costs to remain competitive. But the cost cutting wasn't transparent. It REALLY showed.
I'm glad to know there aren't big taxes holding the Japanese back in Europe. Well at least import taxes. I still think gas taxes heavily influence Europeans. A 1.2 liter car? That only makes sense for people who absolutely need a car but can't afford fuel. But w/e we just have to agree to disagree. The European (w/a focus on German) auto market is beyond my understanding.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 04:08:16 PM
Why buy an overpriced Rolex when you can get a great value-for-money Seiko for much less which even imitates the design of a Rolex? Hell, just go to Hong Kong and buy a fake Rolex!
Some people want the real deal. It's the same with cars. Some have a preference for Mercedes, some for Lexus.
A Rolex will last forever. A Seiko might last a decade or two. A cheap Hong Kong fake will last a few months.
The same can't be said for Mercedes vs. Lexus. For a Rolex, yes, you are paying for the name, but you are also paying for some of the best workmanship you can buy and a watch you know will outlast you. With a Mercedes, all you pay for is H&H, and nothing else.
Quote from: thecarnut on August 04, 2010, 06:01:53 PM
A Rolex will last forever. A Seiko might last a decade or two. A cheap Hong Kong fake will last a few months.
The same can't be said for Mercedes vs. Lexus. For a Rolex, yes, you are paying for the name, but you are also paying for some of the best workmanship you can buy and a watch you know will outlast you. With a Mercedes, all you pay for is H&H, and nothing else.
Keep in mind, a lot of people think the same about cars. We study them and so we know that its largely bullshit, but I don't doubt that its similair in a lot of industries.
As for H&H, the quickest way to get rid of that is to build sub-par products. H&H isnt a reason to peddle crap but rather a standard to live up to. MB making sub-par crap in the 90's reflected in its market position and the rise of Lexus. A quality product is the lifeline of the brand, always is and always will be.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 04, 2010, 04:08:16 PM
Some people want the real deal. It's the same with cars. Some have a preference for Mercedes, some for Lexus.
Are you saying that one of them is the real deal and the other isn't?
FWIW, my high school roommate had a $7,000 Submariner half gold rolex and he had to adjust the time every month or so because it didn't keep time very well.
I'd love to do a survey to find out which of the following was a more popular scenario:
a) People buy the A-Class because they want a supermini car that can carry bikes around town
b) People buy the A-Class because although it's more expensive than a larger Golf-sized car, it has a Mercedes badge
What I don't understand is the argument that Europeans debadge their cars or "underbadge" their cars, but they sell large numbers of cars based on their badge and not merit.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 05, 2010, 12:48:02 AM
FWIW, my high school roommate had a $7,000 Submariner half gold rolex and he had to adjust the time every month or so because it didn't keep time very well.
I've never been impressed with Rolex. I've known people with the same problems you named. And many of them are just damn gaudy.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 04, 2010, 03:54:34 PM
Somewhat, yes. Though don't forget geography - specifically, the distances drivers cover and the type of roads they drive on.
I feel that the American appetite for large, powerful engines descends from those land yachts of yesterday which were designed to cruise effortlessly down long, straight highways. [/stereotype]
In the UK, we have few straight roads, we make shorter journeys and spend less time in our cars.
Distance is pretty different around here. I drive 53 miles to work, each way, daily. If you pick a spot in England and drive in any direction for 53 miles, you'll either drown or end up in Edinburgh. ;)
When I went to school, there were people from the middle of Pennsylvania who were shocked that I crossed state lines to go to work, or if I wanted to, I could pop to New Jersey to go food shopping or buy liquor since it's cheaper there. They'd never been out of the state before. This country is as big as your continent.
Granted, I drive a compact with a 2.0 liter, four cylinder turbo and six speed manual, so I'm not the typical American highway driver.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 05, 2010, 12:48:02 AM
FWIW, my high school roommate had a $7,000 Submariner half gold rolex and he had to adjust the time every month or so because it didn't keep time very well.
Well, steel Submariner Dates cost about $7,000, so he may have been talking rubbish, you never know.
And yes, automatic watches lose time; it's a function of the mechanism. Just as manual transmissions aren't as fast to shift and dual clutches, an automatic generally won't be as accurate as a quartz watch. But like like a manual transmission, it's just better. Adjusting time once a month is well within spec (a regulated automatic movement could vary in time as little as 1 second per day). But the point is that a watch like a Rolex or Omega (or Hamilton, bitches) will last forever.
Actually, I don't know what the original point was.
But honestly, this is the same kind of argument you hear on the watch boards. Replace "German" with "Swiss" and you have the same argument, basically. And like Swiss watches, German cars are just better. :praise:
Quote from: Onslaught on August 05, 2010, 04:52:03 AM
I've never been impressed with Rolex. I've known people with the same problems you named. And many of them are just damn gaudy.
Rolex? Gaudy? Rolex is known as one of the most conservative watchmakers!
He had this watch, which apparently is actually $10,400 full price:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p15fEazTL._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Rolex-Submariner-Oyster-Bracelet-116613-BLSO/dp/B002ZUKWUQ/ref=pd_sbs_watch_1
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 05, 2010, 10:49:22 AM
He had this watch, which apparently is actually $10,400 full price:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p15fEazTL._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Rolex-Submariner-Oyster-Bracelet-116613-BLSO/dp/B002ZUKWUQ/ref=pd_sbs_watch_1
Ugh, the blue two tone Sub is so tacky. Actually, yellow gold in general is tacky.
My dad has that exact watch - I think it's the blue that makes it look gaudy.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 04:59:28 PM
The Germans used to make reliable cars. Then they started piling on features to keep up with the Japanese when the LS400 came out, but the problem was they couldn't match the Japanese in features. For better or worse, Americans like their features, and the Germans can't seem to make them w/o serious problems. MB should never have released Airmatic if it was so problematic.
I think you're taking this a bit to far when you say "the Germans can't match the Japanese for features". First of all. the European luxury market isn't to big on features, especially useless gimmicks that nobody wants in their car because they'll never be used (and just add weight etc.). This is one reason why our cars don't come fully equipped - because people want to select what goes into their cars. The Japanese and American markets are apparently big on features, even silly gimmicks.
Don't forget that Lexus and Infiniti literally sell about what? 90% of their cars in the United States and their sales are well below that of the Germans from a global perspective. Since both these brands are from Toyota/Nissan respectively, they can easily spread costs and afford to fully equip their cars for a specific market where the most profit lies: North America.
This isn't the case with the Germans brands, which are GLOBAL BRANDS that are sold on all continents where different tastes and expectations are to be expected.
Airmatic should be fine if it is
used. That's the problem. Leave the car standing for a few weeks and Airmatic can fuck up. If I remember correctly, that was always one of the biggest problems with air suspensions. Besides, Airmatic is a useless gimmick. The regular Mercedes suspension is already very comfortable. You don't need Airmatic. I'll say this again: Airmatic is an overpriced useless gimmick. It makes money for Mercedes when it is ordered but there is really no comfort difference between it and the regular MB suspension(s).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 04:59:28 PMLikewise, it's understandable that they had to cut costs to remain competitive. But the cost cutting wasn't transparent. It REALLY showed.
Yep. Broken cup holder is a real bitch. Where am I supposed to put the Coke cans? :devil: :devil: :devil:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 04, 2010, 04:59:28 PMI'm glad to know there aren't big taxes holding the Japanese back in Europe. Well at least import taxes. I still think gas taxes heavily influence Europeans. A 1.2 liter car? That only makes sense for people who absolutely need a car but can't afford fuel. But w/e we just have to agree to disagree. The European (w/a focus on German) auto market is beyond my understanding.
First of all, life in Europe isn't cheap. Things here cost money, more than they do in America. This encompasses everything from foods, clothes, electronics, cars etc.
I think Americans want everything to be cheap because a cheap life symbolizes freedom (???), and thus they don't understand why we have a lot of taxes in Europe for certain things. Well, the taxes we pay here for our cars actually go into making the roads and life better for us in the end. The money is generally invested wisely, so we put up with these taxes because we know they serve us well in the end.
True, the oil companies get a hefty share of that money as well, and that's probably the biggest gripe people have with the fuel-tax here. That's actually the only thing people complain about here.
And one more thing. I don't understand why Americans keep bickering about the expensive car taxes we have in Europe. The bottom line is:
IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY AN EXPENSIVE PERFORMANCE/LUXURY CAR IN EUROPE, THEN PAYING THESE TAXES SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. If you can't afford an expensive car and the costs involved, then don't get one. It's that simple.
It seems that America has a spending problem where some people live beyond their means (read The International Herald Tribune, business section) and thus probably want the things they buy to be of great value. Even
luxury cars...
Quote from: thecarnut on August 04, 2010, 06:01:53 PM
With a Mercedes, all you pay for is H&H, and nothing else.
Not true at all. You're paying for the name, true, but you're also paying for a quality car where a lot of research and development (safety, technology etc.) went into.
Quote from: Onslaught on August 04, 2010, 08:02:13 PM
Are you saying that one of them is the real deal and the other isn't?
I'm saying that the real deal to some people is
either.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 05, 2010, 01:09:10 AM
What I don't understand is the argument that Europeans debadge their cars or "underbadge" their cars, but they sell large numbers of cars based on their badge and not merit.
Social jealousy, called
Sozialneid in Germany. Yes, it really exists in a well-to-do country like Germany.
If you can read German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidgesellschaft
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialneid#Neid_in_der_Soziologie
The logic behind debadging cars is simple. If someone buys an E500 and debadges it, nobody will really know if it's an E500 or an E200 CDI. Thus, people can be left guessing as to what the car could be.
Interestingly enough, this phenomenon doesn't seem to exist en mass in countries like Italy for example. A distant relative of mine who's lived there for decades told me that if you buy an expensive car in that country, people will be happy for you.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 06, 2010, 04:55:45 AMFirst of all, life in Europe isn't cheap. Things here cost money, more than they do in America. This encompasses everything from foods, clothes, electronics, cars etc. I think Americans want everything to be cheap because a cheap life symbolizes freedom (???), and thus they don't understand why we have a lot of taxes in Europe for certain things. Well, the taxes we pay here for our cars actually go into making the roads and life better for us in the end. The money is generally invested wisely, so we put up with these taxes because we know they serve us well in the end.
True, the oil companies get a hefty share of that money as well, and that's probably the biggest gripe people have with the fuel-tax here. That's actually the only thing people complain about here.
And one more thing. I don't understand why Americans keep bickering about the expensive car taxes we have in Europe. The bottom line is: IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO BUY AN EXPENSIVE PERFORMANCE/LUXURY CAR IN EUROPE, THEN PAYING THESE TAXES SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. If you can't afford an expensive car and the costs involved, then don't get one. It's that simple.
It seems that America has a spending problem where some people live beyond their means (read The International Herald Tribune, business section) and thus probably want the things they buy to be of great value. Even luxury cars...
Things in Europe are needlessly expensive because of socialist taxes & a general cultural acceptance of high prices, it seems.
For example, here I can get a new Nikkor 35mm f1.8 for $189 USD. IIRC you paid 199 Euros (which is like 50% higher). Gasoline in Germany is about $8/gallon. I imagine everything is about as overpriced. How does that make sense?
Yes, Americans live beyond their means, generally speaking. We do have a spending problem. But that has no relation with the draconian taxes in Europe. There's no reason gas should cost $8/gallon over there and $3 over here. There's no reason a fully loaded E350 should cost LESS in the US than it does in the country it's made (!!!). The expenses lobbied upon Europeans are socialist, and in many ways unnecessary. Even with all our gov't waste + debt, American tax rates are lower than those for people in Europe. And with some brains in the gov't we could keep a low tax rate and still pay for all the stuff we need to. I think this goes beyond the scope of the discussion, but the point is, in Germany at least, and I imagine in other western European countries, luxury and success is unnecessarily taxed.
Car cost is an apples to oranges comparison. IIRC, European car sales includes tax into the MSRP.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2010, 10:34:29 PM
My dad has that exact watch - I think it's the blue that makes it look gaudy.
While I prefer the black Submariner, yellow gold is just tacky.
Quote from: Raza on August 05, 2010, 10:50:25 AM
Actually, yellow gold in general is tacky.
+986543
I still see some 90s Camrys and Avalons with gold badges on them :facepalm:
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on August 08, 2010, 10:58:19 PM
I still see some 90s Camrys and Avalons with gold badges on them :facepalm:
That was a big thing back then. I'd say half the Mazda's I worked on had that done to them at the dealer.
Quote from: Onslaught on August 09, 2010, 04:49:11 AM
That was a big thing back then. I'd say half the Mazda's I worked on had that done to them at the dealer.
We had them on our GS. :lol:
The car was on the lot, so we got a good deal, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten them.
CAR thinks the 520d might be the best of the new 5's.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 05, 2010, 12:48:02 AM
FWIW, my high school roommate had a $7,000 Submariner half gold rolex and he had to adjust the time every month or so because it didn't keep time very well.
Yeah, that's because it's fake.
The real half-gold band Submariners retail well north of 10k. You can get get decent knock-offs for about 300 dollars nowadays. The problem is, the internals are junk.
Automatics need to be set every once in a while, but if there is a noticeable difference in the time the watch keeps and actual time, it's likely fake.
Quote from: Submariner on August 09, 2010, 09:41:08 AM
Yeah, that's because it's fake.
The real half-gold band Submariners retail well north of 10k. You can get get decent knock-offs for about 300 dollars nowadays. The problem is, the internals are junk.
Automatics need to be set every once in a while, but if there is a noticeable difference in the time the watch keeps and actual time, it's likely fake.
Well, older Rolexes had a not-so-great reputation, but they newer movements (say, over the past 20 years or so) are actually very good. COSC certified and everything, I do believe.
Quote from: Raza on August 09, 2010, 11:02:56 AM
Well, older Rolexes had a not-so-great reputation, but they newer movements (say, over the past 20 years or so) are actually very good. COSC certified and everything, I do believe.
I suppose it could be a estate watch - what would account for it's less than retail price.
Still, I'm willing to bet it was a slick knock off.
Quote from: Submariner on August 09, 2010, 12:44:17 PM
I suppose it could be a estate watch - what would account for it's less than retail price.
Still, I'm willing to bet it was a slick knock off.
With a high school kid, so would I. I had a $50,000 car in high school, but a $400 watch, not $4,000.
Quote from: Raza on August 09, 2010, 01:27:31 PM
With a high school kid, so would I. I had a $50,000 car in high school, but a $400 watch, not $4,000.
I once asked my dad if I could wear one of his watches the last day of junior year...he laughed, took it off and said "here, take it". I was a little hesitant, so when he took it back and laughed again, I wasn't too surprised. He instead gave me a dollar and told me to get a job.
Quote from: Submariner on August 09, 2010, 12:44:17 PM
I suppose it could be a estate watch - what would account for it's less than retail price.
Still, I'm willing to bet it was a slick knock off.
There is no way it is fake. He drove an S500, then an FX45, and now a GS430.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 09, 2010, 02:54:42 PM
There is no way it is fake. He drove an S500, then an FX45, and now a GS430.
I drove an S600 every once in a while, but there is a fine difference between borrowing a car and owning a half-18k Submariner in high school.
Quote from: Submariner on August 09, 2010, 02:57:02 PM
I drove an S600 every once in a while, but there is a fine difference between borrowing a car and owning a half-18k Submariner in high school.
Huh? What's your point here?
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 09, 2010, 02:59:26 PM
Huh? What's your point here?
Just saying, in my experience at least, plenty of people I knew growing up drove nice cars, but only one had a Rolex - a Ladies Datejust, and it was obvious to me that it was a fake.
Quote from: Submariner on August 09, 2010, 03:02:13 PM
Just saying, in my experience at least, plenty of people I knew growing up drove nice cars, but only one had a Rolex - a Ladies Datejust, and it was obvious to me that it was a fake.
Well, it was obvious to me that it was real. The second hand was constantly moving and not ticking which is the only way I know how to tell if they're real. His grandfather also sold his company in the 90's for around $220MM.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 09, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
Well, it was obvious to me that it was real. The second hand was constantly moving and not ticking which is the only way I know how to tell if they're real. His grandfather also sold his company in the 90's for around $220MM.
Any good 300 dollar knockoff has the same feature...many even weigh the same as the real deal.
The look of the metal is a good way to tell - there is an indescribable quality about the way it looks. Not that it matters though. No Rolex, no matter the age, should loose time like that. Of course, I don't know the person, so I guess it's irrelevant anyways.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on August 09, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
Well, it was obvious to me that it was real. The second hand was constantly moving and not ticking which is the only way I know how to tell if they're real. His grandfather also sold his company in the 90's for around $220MM.
That's how you can tell it's an automatic, not a battery operated watch. There's more to it than just that. There are fakes that sweep.
It could very well be real, sure. It could also be vintage (the Sub has barely changed since it came into existence) which would explain the poor timekeeping.
What the fuck? I click for BMW and end up in the watch thread?
Quote from: mzziaz on August 09, 2010, 03:57:52 PM
What the fuck? I click for BMW and end up in the watch thread?
Because watches are more interesting than a 5 series with a small diesel engine. :lol:
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2010, 08:17:05 AM
Because watches are more interesting than a 5 series with a small diesel engine. :lol:
+1
If we want to talk 5-Serieses, how about this marvellous E34 M5 Touring!
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8793238.jpg)
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8793270.jpg)
Dual sunroofs for Raza, too:
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8999170.jpg)
Omi.
Yes!
Make that a four door and we're in business!
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2010, 08:42:42 AM
Things in Europe are needlessly expensive because of socialist taxes & a general cultural acceptance of high prices, it seems.
The word "socialist taxes" makes us sound so evil. Most people prefer to think of the system here as a "socialistic democracy". The VAT and other taxes end up bettering our system, keeping corruption in check and in the end benefiting the taxpayer. This is the reason we put up with it. We know it's pricey, but we know it's for our own good.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2010, 08:42:42 AMFor example, here I can get a new Nikkor 35mm f1.8 for $189 USD. IIRC you paid 199 Euros (which is like 50% higher). Gasoline in Germany is about $8/gallon. I imagine everything is about as overpriced. How does that make sense?
There's a 19% VAT tax on consumer products here. What's the VAT in the US?
Gasoline is expensive here because of the government
?kosteuer (eco tax) of 67%. By the way, the ?kosteuer is "pretty recent" (was introduced in the early 1980s) and even before it people still drove cars with smaller engines. Gas wasn't always expensive in Europe. The prices went up big time after the first few oil crisis' of the early and late 1970s. The need for even more fuel-efficient cars became apparent and the eco tax was literally part of the program to help develop these types of cars.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 06, 2010, 08:42:42 AMYes, Americans live beyond their means, generally speaking. We do have a spending problem. But that has no relation with the draconian taxes in Europe. There's no reason gas should cost $8/gallon over there and $3 over here. There's no reason a fully loaded E350 should cost LESS in the US than it does in the country it's made (!!!). The expenses lobbied upon Europeans are socialist, and in many ways unnecessary. Even with all our gov't waste + debt, American tax rates are lower than those for people in Europe. And with some brains in the gov't we could keep a low tax rate and still pay for all the stuff we need to. I think this goes beyond the scope of the discussion, but the point is, in Germany at least, and I imagine in other western European countries, luxury and success is unnecessarily taxed.
One reason gas is expensive here is to keep people "in line" and realistic about their choices. That means: if I can't afford an expensive car with a big engine and poor fuel economy (and the taxation) then I won't buy one. I think our high gas prices have helped shape our mentality towards cars and our needs. It's all very simple. If you can afford to run a luxury car or a car with a big/inefficient engine, it's no problem at all if you can pay the taxes.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the American mentality seems to be:
"I live in a trailer trash home on state welfare and I wanna drive a gas-guzzling and overpowered Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and I can do this because the government ain't taxing me shit." :tounge:
Besides, it's not like the cars with smaller and weaker engines we have here are "underpowered" or "slow". They just appear underpowered and slow to Americans, who are used to more power. And you have speed limits of not even 120 km/h on your highways, right? Virtually all of Europe has a 130 km/h speed limit on their highways with a 10 km/h+ tolerance (meaning you can drive 140 km/h and get away with a small fine if caught). And our little and "underpowered" cars nowadays can virtually all reach 200 km/h (or more).
I also don't understand why Americans keep bitching about value when they're buying a luxury car. Ok, some people care about value, even in the luxury market, I understand that. But a luxury car is an indulgence - a reason to spend money. And given that virtually all the luxury cars sold in the US are fuel-inefficient, I don't see anyone bitching about "wasting money on filling up the car" or piss poor fuel economy. Even with your "cheap" gas prices, filling up a thirsty luxury car will make itself be felt on a persons finances, even in the US. Where's the "value" in that (in the long run)? :confused:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
The word "socialist taxes" makes us sound so evil. Most people prefer to think of the system here as a "socialistic democracy". The VAT and other taxes end up bettering our system, keeping corruption in check and in the end benefiting the taxpayer. This is the reason we put up with it. We know it's pricey, but we know it's for our own good.
They have you guys whipped good. How do high taxes keep government corruption in check? If anything that would embolden the gov't. They know they can make you guys pay out of the nose and not do anything about it, so what's stopping them from doing anything else? I don't know anything about the German govt beyond your taxes, but they are definitely over the top, and not representative of a fair or efficient gov't.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PMThere's a 19% VAT tax on consumer products here. What's the VAT in the US?
It varies state to state, and is called state tax. None of it goes to the federal govt unless I'm mistaken. Where I live (NYC) has the highest, I believe, at about 9%, which is somewhat fair given NY's infrastructure and main city.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PMGasoline is expensive here because of the government ?kosteuer (eco tax) of 67%. By the way, the ?kosteuer is "pretty recent" (was introduced in the early 1980s) and even before it people still drove cars with smaller engines. Gas wasn't always expensive in Europe. The prices went up big time after the first few oil crisis' of the early and late 1970s. The need for even more fuel-efficient cars became apparent and the eco tax was literally part of the program to help develop these types of cars.
One reason gas is expensive here is to keep people "in line" and realistic about their choices. That means: if I can't afford an expensive car with a big engine and poor fuel economy (and the taxation) then I won't buy one. I think our high gas prices have helped shape our mentality towards cars and our needs. It's all very simple. If you can afford to run a luxury car or a car with a big/inefficient engine, it's no problem at all if you can pay the taxes.
Even at $8/gallon, gas is a small part of the cost of car ownership. For a car that makes 20mpg (typical luxury car) at 15k miles per year, that's $6,000/year. Financing + insurance + registration (plus whatever crazy taxes your gov't lobbies on you) will probably amount to 3-4x that. Not a big difference from the 2400 or so we'd pay here. Ironically, the people who can't afford much get hit the hardest with that tax. So it doesn't seem to discourage much at all.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PMCorrect me if I am wrong, but the American mentality seems to be: "I live in a trailer trash home on state welfare and I wanna drive a gas-guzzling and overpowered Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and I can do this because the government ain't taxing me shit." :tounge:
Lol.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PMBesides, it's not like the cars with smaller and weaker engines we have here are "underpowered" or "slow". They just appear underpowered and slow to Americans, who are used to more power. And you have speed limits of not even 120 km/h on your highways, right? Virtually all of Europe has a 130 km/h speed limit on their highways with a 10 km/h+ tolerance (meaning you can drive 140 km/h and get away with a small fine if caught). And our little and "underpowered" cars nowadays can virtually all reach 200 km/h (or more).
Americans demand more performance from their luxury cars. I can't put it more plainly.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PMI also don't understand why Americans keep bitching about value when they're buying a luxury car. Ok, some people care about value, even in the luxury market, I understand that. But a luxury car is an indulgence - a reason to spend money. And given that virtually all the luxury cars sold in the US are fuel-inefficient, I don't see anyone bitching about "wasting money on filling up the car" or piss poor fuel economy. Even with your "cheap" gas prices, filling up a thirsty luxury car will make itself be felt on a persons finances, even in the US. Where's the "value" in that (in the long run)? :confused:
It's not as much a issue of value as it is not getting totally ripped off. Gas is a small part of a luxury car's ownership costs in America (2k or so out of the 15-20k/year), which ties back to my original point- luxury owners here don't care about gas mileage or gas costs. It's only being pushed as big because of the impending CAFE fuel mileage standards. Someone buying a S550 doesn't give a shit about gas mileage.
I don't know why you don't understand... a Mercedes with the equipment and performance of a Camry at the price of a Mercedes is a ripoff by American standards. A 50K Bimmer with the performance of a Corolla just won't sell well here. That's not luxurious.
19% VAT? LOL - time to dust off the guillotines.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 10, 2010, 06:02:06 PM
19% VAT? LOL - time to dust off the guillotines.
Don't laugh, we might be next....
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 10, 2010, 05:13:26 PM... a Mercedes with the equipment and performance of a Camry at the price of a Mercedes is a ripoff by American standards.
Yeah, yeah ... same equipments, also same materials used, same craftmanship and attention to details etc, etc ... :facepalm:
Quote from: AltinD on August 11, 2010, 07:16:20 AM
Yeah, yeah ... same equipments, also same materials used, same craftmanship and attention to details etc, etc ... :facepalm:
Are the materials really that great in a Mercedes cab?
Quote from: Submariner on August 10, 2010, 11:34:32 AM
Make that a four door and we're in business!
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/dealer/carpoint/28160148.jpg)
:wub:
Or perhaps one of the rare 540i manuals that come to market now and then:
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8021352.jpg)
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8021369.jpg)
I'm sure you'd get used to shifting with the left hand. Those sneaky M5 sill-plates need to be changed, however.
Quote from: omicron on August 11, 2010, 08:39:18 AM
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/dealer/carpoint/28160148.jpg)
:wub:
Or perhaps one of the rare 540i manuals that come to market now and then:
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8021352.jpg)
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8021369.jpg)
I'm sure you'd get used to shifting with the left hand. Those sneaky M5 sill-plates need to be changed, however.
That's hot.
I love how business oriented those old Bimmers are. They didn't even paint the moldings + skirts on their flagships then
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 11, 2010, 09:49:38 AM
I love how business oriented those old Bimmers are. They didn't even paint the moldings + skirts on their flagships then
I loved how "German" they were - the new BMW's have some strange German-Japanese vibe about them, and I don't like it.
^^ That's true actually :(
I'll reply to the big argument some other time. Need to hit the sack in a few minutes. :ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 11, 2010, 08:34:53 AM
Are the materials really that great in a Mercedes cab?
The interiors of MB taxis, which are mostly the cheap
Classic trim, are virtually of the same quality as the higher trim models (
Elegance &
Avantgarde). This was generally the case with all E-Class generations prior to the W210 because there were no distinctive trim differences.
The exception was the W210 E-Class. The lower
Classic trim had noticeably much cheaper materials than its
Elegance and
Avantgarde counterparts.
Classic trim exterior (no exterior chrome, no body-colored door handles, plastic hubcaps, no headlight sprayers etc.)
(http://www.grossraumtaxi-dus.de/resources/_wsb_485x362_merc210.jpg)
Elegance trim has external chrome, body-colored door handles, nicer rims etc.
(http://www.autowallpaper.de/Wallpaper/images/Mercedes-Benz/E-Klasse/Mercedes-Benz-W-210.jpg)
Avantgarde trim is the sportier trim. Car is lowered by 3mm, the grille is sportier, suspension is sportier etc.
(http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/77/Mercedes-Benz_W210_front_20080809.jpg)
Classic trim interior has fake wood, black steering wheel, cloth seats,
(http://www.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/medium/MERCEDESBENZE-Klasse-W210--medium-1077_5.jpg)
Elegance trim interior has real wood, no black steering wheel, better materials in the door and dashboard sections
(http://kaype.net/temp/w210/w210_e430_11.jpg)
Avantgarde trim interior is the same as
Elegance but with a sportier atmosphere and is only black wood (Vogelahornholz)
(http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/1026692/6289694/e320cdi-innen-30526.JPG)
I can't find a single picture of the
Classic trim W212 E-Class interior online, but it will simply lack wood in certain places. The rest of the materials are the same as those found on both higher trims.
Quote from: AltinD on August 11, 2010, 03:01:50 PM
^^ That's true actually :(
Your car looks like Altima
(http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carpoint/8999170.jpg)
Brilliant.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 11, 2010, 07:01:10 PM
Your car looks like Altima
Nissan pretty much copied the roof-line of the B5 Passat ... but I'm not surprised you wouldn't notice the other huge differences. Your post history is a big indicators of your failure to catch, notice, see obvious and substantial differences. :evildude:
Quote from: AltinD on August 12, 2010, 04:46:34 AM
Nissan pretty much copied the roof-line of the B5 Passat ... but I'm not surprised you wouldn't notice the other huge differences. Your post history is a big indicators of your failure to catch, notice, see obvious and substantial differences. :evildude:
Humor eludes you. Prob hard to take a joke when your income and VAT taxes double/triple the price of everything :huh: (that was another joke)
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 12, 2010, 07:08:32 AM
Humor eludes you. Prob hard to take a joke when your income and VAT taxes double/triple the price of everything :huh: (that was another joke)
Oh Snap!
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 12, 2010, 07:08:32 AM
Humor eludes you. Prob hard to take a joke when your income and VAT taxes double/triple the price of everything :huh: (that was another joke)
My humour is fine, thank you very much ... and I live in a tax and VAT free place. Double fail :devil:
Quote from: AltinD on August 12, 2010, 03:43:48 PM
My humour is fine, thank you very much ... and I live in a tax and VAT free place. Double fail :devil:
VAT free, maybe, but there's no such thing as a tax-free country. You may not be taxed directly, but trust me, you're paying taxes.
Quote from: MX793 on August 12, 2010, 04:29:28 PM
VAT free, maybe, but there's no such thing as a tax-free country. You may not be taxed directly, but trust me, you're paying taxes.
Well, of course we pay in a way or another, but if there's no Income Tax, no Corporate Tax, no VAT, no Sales Tax ... it sounds pretty much tax-free to me.
Tax freedom does have its vices. I, for example, got drunk in public, felt up the first person who came along, and passed out on a transvestite.
Do try that in Dubai and report back.
Quote from: omicron on August 13, 2010, 09:14:24 AM
Tax freedom does have its vices. I, for example, got drunk in public, felt up the first person who came along, and passed out on a transvestite.
Do try that in Dubai and report back.
Pah, a guy in Dubai beats that. He pocked someone in the ass with an electric cow prod, set his genitals on fire, hit the guy with a wooden plank with nails in it, poured salt into the wounds, and drove over the guy with his Mercedes SUV. The Dubai police kindly held down the victim.
However he was a member of the ruling family, so I guess different standards apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeEi2ghYkpM&feature=related
Altind don't cut Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al-Nahyan off in traffic! :mask:
Quote from: Galaxy on August 13, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
Pah, a guy in Dubai beats that. He pocked someone in the ass with an electric cow prod, set his genitals on fire, hit the guy with a wooden plank with nails in it, poured salt into the wounds, and drove over the guy with his Mercedes SUV. The Dubai police kindly held down the victim.
However he was a member of the ruling family, so I guess different standards apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeEi2ghYkpM&feature=related
Altind don't cut Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al-Nahyan off in traffic! :mask:
:mask: Wow!
Quote from: omicron on August 13, 2010, 09:14:24 AM
Tax freedom does have its vices. I, for example, got drunk in public, felt up the first person who came along, and passed out on a transvestite.
Do try that in Dubai and report back.
I have. And will again.
Quote from: omicron on August 13, 2010, 09:14:24 AM
Tax freedom does have its vices. I, for example, got drunk in public, felt up the first person who came along, and passed out on a transvestite.
Do try that in Dubai and report back.
Pics or ban!
Quote from: Galaxy on August 13, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
Pah, a guy in Dubai beats that. He pocked someone in the ass with an electric cow prod, set his genitals on fire, hit the guy with a wooden plank with nails in it, poured salt into the wounds, and drove over the guy with his Mercedes SUV. The Dubai police kindly held down the victim.
However he was a member of the ruling family, so I guess different standards apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeEi2ghYkpM&feature=related
Altind don't cut Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al-Nahyan off in traffic! :mask:
Unbelievable. Its like Uday Hussain all over again.
BMW did really pull all of the stops with the 520d. The transmission has been equipped with a dry sump oil system to reduce the churning losses, plus it has a centrifugal force pendulum to allow it to operate at extremely low rpms without lugging the engine.
Quote from: Galaxy on August 13, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
Pah, a guy in Dubai beats that. He pocked someone in the ass with an electric cow prod, set his genitals on fire, hit the guy with a wooden plank with nails in it, poured salt into the wounds, and drove over the guy with his Mercedes SUV. The Dubai police kindly held down the victim.
However he was a member of the ruling family, so I guess different standards apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeEi2ghYkpM&feature=related
Altind don't cut Sheikh Issa bin Zayed al-Nahyan off in traffic! :mask:
It's ABU DHABI, not Dubai :tounge:
... and is just a matter of a major drug deal gone bad. The Sheik is a well known drug-abuser and when his father was alive he was kept in isolation inside his palace, or in house arrest if you will. I believe his brother, who now is the ruler of Abu Dhabi and U.A.E.'s President decided to sent him back in isolation, but I am not sure about it.
BTW, the American guy who recorded that is the same guy who made the video public after himself falling out with the Sheik. If i were your Goverment I would keep him under watch. There might be many dirty businesses he might be involved with.
Quote from: omicron on August 13, 2010, 09:14:24 AM
Tax freedom does have its vices. I, for example, got drunk in public, felt up the first person who came along, and passed out on a transvestite.
Do try that in Dubai and report back.
Allowed or not, those are not my kind of things to do :evildude:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
The word "socialist taxes" makes us sound so evil. Most people prefer to think of the system here as a "socialistic democracy". The VAT and other taxes end up bettering our system, keeping corruption in check and in the end benefiting the taxpayer. This is the reason we put up with it. We know it's pricey, but we know it's for our own good.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
One reason gas is expensive here is to keep people "in line" and realistic about their choices. That means: if I can't afford an expensive car with a big engine and poor fuel economy (and the taxation) then I won't buy one. I think our high gas prices have helped shape our mentality towards cars and our needs. It's all very simple. If you can afford to run a luxury car or a car with a big/inefficient engine, it's no problem at all if you can pay the taxes.
oh, you poor Europeans...such a naive bunch always duped into believing that government controls you for your own good. Boy, am I ever thankful for your ancestors who didn't put up with that shit, and came over here to establish a whole new country.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 10, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
I also don't understand why Americans keep bitching about value when they're buying a luxury car. Ok, some people care about value, even in the luxury market, I understand that. But a luxury car is an indulgence - a reason to spend money
I'm sure you guys aren't much different, but we want something to show for the extra money spent on a luxury car. Besides the badge.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 14, 2010, 01:35:54 PM
oh, you poor Europeans...such a naive bunch always duped into believing that government controls you for your own good. Boy, am I ever thankful for your ancestors who didn't put up with that shit, and came over here to establish a whole new country.
Euro socialism very much rides the vestige mindset of the Middle Ages serf.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 14, 2010, 08:13:10 PM
Euro socialism very much rides the vestige mindset of the Middle Ages serf.
Yawn. Don't you ever grow tired of the anti-euro jihad?
^^ But he speaks out of first hand experience ... wait what :D
Quote from: mzziaz on August 15, 2010, 07:32:53 AM
Yawn. Don't you ever grow tired of the anti-euro jihad?
As ridiculous as I find Cougs, the point is that super high taxes, both all encompassing (general income) and behavioral ( 200% gas tax, engine displacement tax, car size tax), have a huge impact on European car purchases
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 15, 2010, 12:00:01 PM
As ridiculous as I find Cougs, the point is that super high taxes, both all encompassing (general income) and behavioral ( 200% gas tax, engine displacement tax, car size tax), have a huge impact on European car purchases
200%? Engine displacement tax? Car size tax? Where?
Well in Germany the tax on gasoline is €0.6545/L, plus 19% VAT on that and the fuel itself. If the average price of gasoline including taxes is €1.399/L, the base cost not including taxes is €0.5211/L, therefore the tax rate is 168%...
I see. It's about that here, maybe a little less as VAT is 17.5% (for now). I was just wondering if there actually is anywhere with 200% taxation
Quote from: mzziaz on August 15, 2010, 07:32:53 AM
Yawn. Don't you ever grow tired of the anti-euro jihad?
T or F? Norway, as does England, Spain, Denmark, The Netherlands, and other European states, has an active monarchy.
T - King Harald V is your majesty.
GoCougs - 1
Europe - 0
Quote from: GoCougs on August 15, 2010, 05:29:41 PM
T or F? Norway, as does England, Spain, Denmark, The Netherlands, and other European states, has an active monarchy.
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There hasn't been a King or Queen of England since 1707.
GoCougs - sqrt(-1)
93JC - $Texas
Quote from: 93JC on August 15, 2010, 05:36:37 PM
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There hasn't been a King or Queen of England since 1707.
GoCougs - sqrt(-1)
93JC - $Texas
Yeah, expanding said monarchy, uh, makes me look even better than usual; and even Canada has its vestigial serfdom throwback in about-to-breakaway Quebec.
GoGougs - 1
93JC - 0.2 for effort
Quote from: GoCougs on August 15, 2010, 05:58:12 PM
Yeah, expanding said monarchy, uh, makes me look even better than usual; and even Canada has its vestigial serfdom throwback in about-to-breakaway Quebec.
GoGougs - 1
93JC - 0.2 for effort
I have no idea what you're talkeing aboot.
GoCougs - threeve
93JC - eleventy
lmao
um so how about that BMW?
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 14, 2010, 01:35:54 PM
oh, you poor Europeans...such a naive bunch always duped into believing that government controls you for your own good. Boy, am I ever thankful for your ancestors who didn't put up with that shit, and came over here to establish a whole new country.
Um, yeah, right. :rolleyes:
The taxes we pay are hefty for a reason but the quality of life is good here. We see the results of the taxes we pay, so we put up with it. The quality of our roads, except the former East Germany, are good. Do you know how much it costs to maintain the Autobahns for instance? There are no toll booths here so the maintenance money for road repairs is derived from taxation.
Americans seem to want the German-style Autobahns in the US, but God forbid the government raises taxes as a result to finance and maintain such a project. No such thing as a free ride, you know? :facepalm:
Also, this whole car taxation thing isn't such a big problem. Owning a car in Europe is expensive, but it's not something you can't pay if you're a normal person with a normal income. You just have to buy a car which you can afford to purchase, maintain and pay the taxes for. Virtually everyone who owns a powerful V6 or V8, V10 or V12 or super diesel luxury car here can pay the automotive and insurance taxes that come with ownership: it's not an issue to these people. If it was, they'd be driving something else. It's that simple.
And because of this system, it's safe to say that Europeans have become more realistic in their car purchases choosing a car/engine based on their needs etc. for example.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 14, 2010, 01:35:54 PMI'm sure you guys aren't much different, but we want something to show for the extra money spent on a luxury car. Besides the badge.
You have conservatives in the US and in Europe. You have show-offs in the US and in Europe. This applies to all nations and places on earth.
People in central and northern Europe tend to be more conservative with their luxury car purchases. Even if they buy a V8 S-Class or E500 they'll usually debadge them so people won't know what model it is. Apparently some people even do this in the US but for other reasons such as aesthetics.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on August 15, 2010, 09:54:59 PM
um so how about that BMW?
No. Only vintage M5s and
Cougsius interruptus.
Quote from: omicron on August 16, 2010, 08:49:44 AM
No. Only vintage M5s and Cougsius interruptus.
(http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/9307567/0405_01z+2003_bmw_e39_m5+rear_left_view.jpg)
Yum
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2010, 04:45:34 AM
Also, this whole car taxation thing isn't such a big problem. Owning a car in Europe is expensive, but it's not something you can't pay if you're a normal person with a normal income. You just have to buy a car which you can afford to purchase, maintain and pay the taxes for. Virtually everyone who owns a powerful V6 or V8, V10 or V12 or super diesel luxury car here can pay the automotive and insurance taxes that come with ownership: it's not an issue to these people. If it was, they'd be driving something else. It's that simple.
And because of this system, it's safe to say that Europeans have become more realistic in their car purchases choosing a car/engine based on their needs etc. for example.
I'll leave the road taxes and autobahn argument alone, but this is the thing that I'm taking issue with. It's a travesty that Euro governments are using VAT's and other taxes to influence their consumers' buying habits, but the real tragedy is that you guys are eating it all up, naively convinced that it's for your own good.
The thing that I cherish most as an American is freedom. You guys do what you want, but unfortunately for us, our current administration is looking your way for ideas.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2010, 04:45:34 AM
Also, this whole car taxation thing isn't such a big problem. Owning a car in Europe is expensive, but it's not something you can't pay if you're a normal person with a normal income. You just have to buy a car which you can afford to purchase, maintain and pay the taxes for. Virtually everyone who owns a powerful V6 or V8, V10 or V12 or super diesel luxury car here can pay the automotive and insurance taxes that come with ownership: it's not an issue to these people. If it was, they'd be driving something else. It's that simple.
And because of this system, it's safe to say that Europeans have become more realistic in their car purchases choosing a car/engine based on their needs etc. for example.
Why should the govt decide what I need when I could afford more if it wasn't for their elitist decisions?
What european needs a car if there is such well-formed public transportation?
Perhaps you would feel differently if you were not in the position of driving an SL and were just some middle-class slob.
It is nice that you feel the need for the govt to make such decisions for you and your fellow countryman. I would rather not have an idiot like biden/pelosi/ried/bush/gore decide what is in my best interest
Quote from: 93JC on August 15, 2010, 05:36:37 PM
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There hasn't been a King or Queen of England since 1707.
As usual, Cougs fails massively. :facepalm:
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 11:15:16 AM
you guys are eating it all up, naively convinced that it's for your own good.
Not all of us.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 11:15:16 AM
The thing that I cherish most as an American is freedom. You guys do what you want, but unfortunately for us, our current administration is looking your way for ideas.
According to ifcar and Madman, you guys can only drive models which your government has approved for sale in your country.
Tell me how that is "freedom".
Also, the chicken tax, gas guzzler taxes, the CAFE double standard for trucks vs. passenger cars, tinting requirements for trucks vs. passenger cars
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 16, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
As usual, Cougs fails massively. :facepalm:
Not all of us.
According to ifcar and Madman, you guys can only drive models which your government has approved for sale in your country.
Tell me how that is "freedom".
There are very few, if any, cars that aren't allowed for sale here; and if they are it is because manufacturers don't want to invest to federalize them, or they would gain no market share. You look at most of the brands in Europe that aren't here, they either all tried here and failed (Peugeot, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Fiat), would be totally redundant (Seat, Opel) or just blow (?????). There are some individual CARS I'm sure some people would like to see (hot hatches), but there's not enough demand to warrant bringing them here.
Plus in any case you guys get taxed out the ass for even thinking about cars, let alone driving anything beyond a Polo 1.0D. Americans definitely have more automotive freedom; that is one of the country's defining characteristics
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 16, 2010, 01:59:11 PM
As usual, Cougs fails massively. :facepalm:
I don't know what it is about your country that North Americans don't get, but maaaaaaaaaaaan do a lot of people just not get it.
If there's a news story on CNN or whatever and it involves the UK, chances are the presenter will talk about "England".
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 16, 2010, 02:19:25 PM
There are very few, if any, cars that aren't allowed for sale here; and if they are it is because manufacturers don't want to invest to federalize them, or they would gain no market share. You look at most of the brands in Europe that aren't here, they either all tried here and failed (Peugeot, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Fiat), would be totally redundant (Seat, Opel) or just blow (?????). There are some individual CARS I'm sure some people would like to see (hot hatches), but there's not enough demand to warrant bringing them here.
Plus in any case you guys get taxed out the ass for even thinking about cars, let alone driving anything beyond a Polo 1.0D. Americans definitely have more automotive freedom; that is one of the country's defining characteristics
First, you missed my point. You're not legally allowed to register a car in the US that has not been 'federalized' unless it's over a certain age (20 years?). Give me one good reason for this.
Incidentally, the federalization process itself is ridiculous and prevents you guys from choosing from a much wider range of models. It's been said on here many, many times.
So what if those prospective brands would fail? Vinsanity was chastising the Europeans for having our governments decide what is best for us, when in fact your govt is doing the same thing!
I wouldn't deny that you have more
driving freedom in the US. I've visited your country several times so I appreciate that it is designed around the car. But I'd completely refute that you guys have more automotive freedom, because you have much less freedom when it comes to choosing what type of car you want to drive.
Finally, if you are actually serious about us getting taxed out of the ass for driving anything over a 1.0L Polo, it demonstrates just how out of touch you are with the way that the British (European?) market works.
You guys delve into this too deeply. You make it sound that people with normal wages are forced into 1.0L Corsas.
People with normal wages drive cars that are similar to cars here, 4CYL Midsize and Compact cars. I've noticed that more people in Europe buy new cars.
I mean, yeah 19% VAT sucks, but you get:
- Free Healthcare, that actually is legit good
- Stellar public schools
- Welfare and public assistance that goes beyond just handing you a check
People in the US are "forced" into things they don't want either. You can't afford a V6 Camry? Too bad. You have to buy a 1.5L Yaris (or whatever you can afford).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 16, 2010, 02:19:25 PM
There are very few, if any, cars that aren't allowed for sale here; and if they are it is because manufacturers don't want to invest to federalize them, or they would gain no market share. You look at most of the brands in Europe that aren't here, they either all tried here and failed (Peugeot, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Fiat), would be totally redundant (Seat, Opel) or just blow (?????). There are some individual CARS I'm sure some people would like to see (hot hatches), but there's not enough demand to warrant bringing them here.
Plus in any case you guys get taxed out the ass for even thinking about cars, let alone driving anything beyond a Polo 1.0D. Americans definitely have more automotive freedom; that is one of the country's defining characteristics
The entire MPV segment (Compact and subcompact) would make more sense in the US over SUV's but aside from a select few they have not been sold in the US. There are quite a few (that aren't tiny penalty boxes) cars that aren't sold here. The US's market is quite limited, a lot of it having to do with government restrictions and intervention.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 01:28:04 PM
Why should the govt decide what I need when I could afford more if it wasn't for their elitist decisions?
What european needs a car if there is such well-formed public transportation?
Perhaps you would feel differently if you were not in the position of driving an SL and were just some middle-class slob.
It is nice that you feel the need for the govt to make such decisions for you and your fellow countryman. I would rather not have an idiot like biden/pelosi/ried/bush/gore decide what is in my best interest
Yet again, Wimmer said that a normal person with a normal salary can afford a regular compact or midsized car. Stats show that the Golf/Jetta is the best selling car in Germany, which is a normal sized family hatchback.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:19:20 PM
Yet again, Wimmer said that a normal person with a normal salary can afford a regular compact or midsized car. Stats show that the Golf/Jetta is the best selling car in Germany, which is a normal sized family hatchback.
Could a normal salaried person afford a 300C with a Hemi, G8 GT like in the US that go for the price of a reasonably equipped honda minivan over here?
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
Could a normal salaried person afford a 300C with a Hemi, G8 GT like in the US that go for the price of a reasonably equipped honda minivan over here?
By comparison, the Best selling cars in the US are Japanese midsize and compact sedans, most of them being 4 cylinders.
Even so, those cars are quite expensive (in comparison to the cars in the US that are best selling).
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:29:30 PM
By comparison, the Best selling cars in the US are Japanese midsize and compact sedans, most of them being 4 cylinders.
Even so, those cars are quite expensive (in comparison to the cars in the US that are best selling).
All of that is nice but still doesn't answer the question, could a normal salaried person own something like a 300C.
The F-150 that is often the best-selling vehicle in the US, together with the ram/silverado make up a large portion of sales, and are considerably more expensive than a 4 cyl camcord with mousefur seats.
Personally, there aren't too many European cars not sold here that I'd consider buying. First one that comes to mind is the A5 Sportback, but the initial reviews I read gave the impression that the car was disappointingly poorly sorted out. Another one I'd consider is the diesel C-class, but I don't think Mercedes could sell that here for a profit at the price point relative to other C-classes in the American market. The Focus RS is cool, but that would end up costing more than a Mustang if they sold it here. I do have a thing for the compact European hardtop convertibles, but again, they'd probably have to be sold at a price most Americans aren't willing to pay.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 03:37:53 PM
All of that is nice but still doesn't answer the question, could a normal salaried person own something like a 300C.
The F-150 that is often the best-selling vehicle in the US, together with the ram/silverado make up a large portion of sales, and are considerably more expensive than a 4 cyl camcord with mousefur seats.
Can a person with a normal salary own a 300C here? Not really. 300C's are premium vehicles. The rough equivelant would be a 525i or an A6 2.7 or E320.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
Can a person with a normal salary own a 300C here? Not really. 300C's are premium vehicles. The rough equivelant would be a 525i or an A6 2.7 or E320.
What is the avg price of a silverado, what avg family doesn't have a minivan or SUV. All of these are within the grasp of a normal US worker and the 300C is not much if any more costly. A dodge challenger 5.7 starts at $32K, as much as a 6 cyl explorer or similar to an 8 seat v6 sienna.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 04:02:08 PM
What is the avg price of a silverado, what avg family doesn't have a minivan or SUV. All of these are within the grasp of a normal US worker and the 300C is not much if any more costly.
The 300C is very much so more costly.
Basic Silvys and F-150's start at 21K. The 300C starts at 38K. That is a LOT of money. The Odyssey starts at 26K. Acadia and Traverse around 28K.
300C's really aren't in the grasp of a "normal" income.
Quote from: 93JC on August 16, 2010, 02:38:45 PM
I don't know what it is about your country that North Americans don't get, but maaaaaaaaaaaan do a lot of people just not get it.
If there's a news story on CNN or whatever and it involves the UK, chances are the presenter will talk about "England".
LOL. Monarchy. LOL.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 04:09:45 PM
The 300C is very much so more costly.
Basic Silvys and F-150's start at 21K. The 300C starts at 38K. That is a LOT of money. The Odyssey starts at 26K. Acadia and Traverse around 28K.
300C's really aren't in the grasp of a "normal" income.
You're so out of touch with reality, it's troubling. F150's aren't being sold for $21k on a regular basis.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 04:09:45 PM
The 300C is very much so more costly.
Basic Silvys and F-150's start at 21K. The 300C starts at 38K. That is a LOT of money. The Odyssey starts at 26K. Acadia and Traverse around 28K.
300C's really aren't in the grasp of a "normal" income.
If you want to quote base models, the 300 starts at $28K, the similar Charger starts at $25K, hardly out of reach of the normal "salaried" worker.
An odyssey touring model starts at $41K, with most reasonably optioned models in the mid to upper 30s.
You are delusional if you think most silverados are 21K base models.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 06:21:25 PM
If you want to quote base models, the 300 starts at $28K, the similar Charger starts at $25K, hardly out of reach of the normal "salaried" worker.
An odyssey touring model starts at $41K, with most reasonably optioned models in the mid to upper 30s.
You are delusional if you think most silverados are 21K base models.
Either way, it's beside the point.
For many Europeans, a luxury car (5-series, E-class) is not out of grasp for the average income as well. Heck, premium cars such as Alfa Romeo and Volvos are even more affordable (and would be more comparable to a Chrysler 300).
2o6, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Sometimes I have a hard time getting my thoughts into words, and right now this is one of those times.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 16, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
First, you missed my point. You're not legally allowed to register a car in the US that has not been 'federalized' unless it's over a certain age (20 years?). Give me one good reason for this.
Incidentally, the federalization process itself is ridiculous and prevents you guys from choosing from a much wider range of models. It's been said on here many, many times.
So what if those prospective brands would fail? Vinsanity was chastising the Europeans for having our governments decide what is best for us, when in fact your govt is doing the same thing!
I wouldn't deny that you have more driving freedom in the US. I've visited your country several times so I appreciate that it is designed around the car. But I'd completely refute that you guys have more automotive freedom, because you have much less freedom when it comes to choosing what type of car you want to drive.
Finally, if you are actually serious about us getting taxed out of the ass for driving anything over a 1.0L Polo, it demonstrates just how out of touch you are with the way that the British (European?) market works.
Britain's car market is a lot like ours, but then again I don't think they have the tax structures of their counterparts to the East. And while we do occasionally miss out on great cars, ultimately the real reason many cars aren't sold here is because there's no room for them in the US market. We almost have too much choice as is for what's preferred for American driving.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:19:20 PM
People in the US are "forced" into things they don't want either. You can't afford a V6 Camry? Too bad. You have to buy a 1.5L Yaris (or whatever you can afford).
Yea but the difference in the cost of ownership of a V6 Camry and even a 4 cylinder Camry vary almost exponentially with the level of fuel taxes lobbied by some European nations. Obviously if I can't afford the PRICE of a Ferrari I can't afford a Ferrari... but in places like Germany the govt says 'if we had a free market, you could afford x car, but because we don't want you to drive it, we will tax the shit out of anything to do with it'. What sense does that make from anyone's POV but the govts?
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:19:20 PMThe entire MPV segment (Compact and subcompact) would make more sense in the US over SUV's but aside from a select few they have not been sold in the US. There are quite a few (that aren't tiny penalty boxes) cars that aren't sold here. The US's market is quite limited, a lot of it having to do with government restrictions and intervention.
MPVs had their time here, but ultimately they never caught on with the US market. I remember the days of the Nissan Axxess and the Mitsubishi Expo LRV. People stopped buying them and bought Explorers instead.
There are NO restrictions on what cars are sold in America beyond what manufacturers can sell at a high enough volume to warrant entering the market. Everything is driven by demand and competition, really. Europe, and in particular, Germany, seems 1000000000x more restrictive, with their taxes and super high emissions tests and all that stuff. I don't know where you guys are coming from with all this other stuff.
Even in tight metropolitan cities, people still buy midsize cars here. They just make sense
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 06:21:25 PM
If you want to quote base models, the 300 starts at $28K, the similar Charger starts at $25K, hardly out of reach of the normal "salaried" worker.
An odyssey touring model starts at $41K, with most reasonably optioned models in the mid to upper 30s.
You are delusional if you think most silverados are 21K base models.
Right now you could likely get any 300 or Charger for 10K off the sticker and if you go to any local dealer that sells full size trucks I'm sure your average price would be around $30 to $35k.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 16, 2010, 09:26:50 PM
Yea but the difference in the cost of ownership of a V6 Camry and even a 4 cylinder Camry vary almost exponentially with the level of fuel taxes lobbied by some European nations. Obviously if I can't afford the PRICE of a Ferrari I can't afford a Ferrari... but in places like Germany the govt says 'if we had a free market, you could afford x car, but because we don't want you to drive it, we will tax the shit out of anything to do with it'. What sense does that make from anyone's POV but the govts?
Exactly. I remember reading an article years ago about London's congestion tax, and it mentioned that the tax is based on CO2 emissions. What I found disturbing are the quotes from regular folk justifying it, something to the effect of "if someone can afford a Mercedes SL500, they should have to pay more congestion tax", and what almost shocked me more is that people were mentioning V6 Mondeos in the same sentence as Mercedes, Jaguar, and Porsche when referring to cars people bought for self-indulgence. Really? a V6 Mondeo? :facepalm:
This thread is just full of fail right now. First, the EU has regulations similar to the United States relating to emissions and crash safety. That's not unique to the United States, and you can't point to it as the equivalent of European countries trying to control what the proletariat drive through taxation. Second, that is what they are trying to do and if you're fine with that then you're a sheep. Third, the oppressive taxation in European countries has made their economies stagnant. From a long term perspective it is a bad thing even if there are short term benefits. Unfortunately, we are on this same road ourselves.
Quote from: Laconian on August 16, 2010, 02:01:59 PM
Also, the chicken tax, gas guzzler taxes, the CAFE double standard for trucks vs. passenger cars, tinting requirements for trucks vs. passenger cars
There's a chicken tax?
Quote from: Raza on August 17, 2010, 05:56:11 AM
There's a chicken tax?
Anything beyond gruel is a luxury in Europe (especially England :lol: )
Quote from: Raza link=topic=22614.msg1380101#msg1380101 date=1282046171
There's a chicken tax?
The chicken tax is a tax added to (IIRC) light trucks that aren't assembeled in the US.
It's a stupid law, and automakers have to do some strange things to circumvent it. For example, the Transit Connect is shipped here with windows and seats/seat belts, which classifies it as a "passenger car". Then the car's seats and windows are taken out (windows are replaced with metal panels) in the US and the car is re classified as a Cargo Van.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 07:41:54 AM
Anything beyond gruel is a luxury in Europe (especially England :lol: )
:lol:
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 03:40:21 PM
Personally, there aren't too many European cars not sold here that I'd consider buying. First one that comes to mind is the A5 Sportback, but the initial reviews I read gave the impression that the car was disappointingly poorly sorted out. Another one I'd consider is the diesel C-class, but I don't think Mercedes could sell that here for a profit at the price point relative to other C-classes in the American market. The Focus RS is cool, but that would end up costing more than a Mustang if they sold it here. I do have a thing for the compact European hardtop convertibles, but again, they'd probably have to be sold at a price most Americans aren't willing to pay.
That still wasn't my point(s). Whether or not there is a space in the market for these cars is irrelevant.
Quote from: Laconian on August 16, 2010, 02:01:59 PM
Also, the chicken tax, gas guzzler taxes, the CAFE double standard for trucks vs. passenger cars, tinting requirements for trucks vs. passenger cars
Tell me more about this gas guzzler tax.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 16, 2010, 09:26:50 PM
There are NO restrictions on what cars are sold in America beyond what manufacturers can sell at a high enough volume to warrant entering the market.
That seems untrue. I'm sure it's been said before on here that certain cars can't be sold in the US as they don't meet certain regulations, even though these cars satisfy European standards.
Zonda couldn't sell his sports cars in the US for that reason, IIRC.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 17, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
That still wasn't my point(s). Whether or not there is a space in the market for these cars is irrelevant.
I disagree; it's completely relevant. If Americans all of a sudden wanted more A- and B-segment hatchbacks, and C-segment people movers, then the market would respond. Our regulations aren't what's keeping them from our sales lots. If anything, CAFE encourages the sales of smaller Euro-type cars.
Remember when the government allowed people to write off 100% of their full size trucks (>6000lbs), taking advantage of old farm subsidy loopholes? We didn't punish gluttonous behavior - we REWARDED it, with taxpayer dollars!
We are victims of market inertia thanks to the vehicular weight arms race . I think more Americans would drive smaller cars if they weren't scared to death of their neighbor's Grand Cherokee flattening them on the freeway.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 10:45:11 AM
I disagree; it's completely relevant. If Americans all of a sudden wanted more A- and B-segment hatchbacks, and C-segment people movers, then the market would respond. Our regulations aren't what's keeping them from our sales lots. If anything, CAFE encourages the sales of smaller Euro-type cars.
The European market is filled with vehicles that satisfy minute niches and do not sell in large numbers.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 17, 2010, 11:21:22 AM
The European market is filled with vehicles that satisfy minute niches and do not sell in large numbers.
And the higher transaction prices are a result of this lack of economy-of-scale.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 17, 2010, 10:34:43 AM
That seems untrue. I'm sure it's been said before on here that certain cars can't be sold in the US as they don't meet certain regulations, even though these cars satisfy European standards.
Zonda couldn't sell his sports cars in the US for that reason, IIRC.
Where there's a will there's a way. Case in point, all the beautiful foreign cars ruined by those tremendous 5MPH bumpers in the 70s, or the once powerful cars choked down by catalytic converters and EPA ready carburetors. It's 95% business and 5% regulation. In Germany however, it's 50% taxes, 30% nationalism, and 20% social jealousy (if you have any money left after the first 80%).
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 11:42:59 AM
Where there's a will there's a way. Case in point, all the beautiful foreign cars ruined by those tremendous 5MPH bumpers in the 70s, or the once powerful cars choked down by catalytic converters and EPA ready carburetors. It's 95% business and 5% regulation. In Germany however, it's 50% taxes, 30% nationalism, and 20% social jealousy (if you have any money left after the first 80%).
The entire US auto market is full of lack of choice!
We get:
One or two engine choices (usually one)
Five colors (white, two shades of black, beige and blue)
Beige or Black interior
and that's it.
The European market is full of choice not only in models, but the specifications of the models as well. I mean, they pretty much get all the cars we have here, PLUS more cars from other automakers. How in the WORLD would that make the American market "have more choice"?
Quote from: 2o6 on August 17, 2010, 12:03:28 PM
The entire US auto market is full of lack of choice!
We get:
One or two engine choices (usually one) Usually the biggest + most powerful engines... if you can show me some non diesel big engines we are missing out on I am all ears
Five colors (white, two shades of black, beige and blue) I'm sure extra colors cost money. Plus the colors you listed are generally the colors most people choose. G35s came in black, white, navy, red, and I think orange... yet 99% of them are silver :huh:
Beige or Black interior Again, most popular; I wouldn't mind the choice of gray or navy, but again I'm certain cars in Europe cost more because of these extra choices. If it's that big a deal, get your car reupholstered.
and that's it.
The European market is full of choice not only in models, but the specifications of the models as well. I mean, they pretty much get all the cars we have here, PLUS more cars from other automakers. How in the WORLD would that make the American market "have more choice"?
The cars + engines we don't get, generally, are cars + engines we wouldn't buy anyway. Like I said, Alfa, Renault, Fiat, Peugeot and a myriad of other European brands all failed here, for whatever reasons. You look at American engine choices; 9 times out of 10 we simply get the biggest + most powerful out of simplicity and demand.
The one market I WILL say we are missing out on is the Japanese Domestic market. We missed out on a lot of excellent drivers' cars like the Nissan Cefiro and Toyota Mark II. But beyond that, and a few cool minivans, we didn't miss much.
If Alfa/Renault/whoever saw the opportunity to sell cars here, they would. Believe me. Your cries are the typical internet enthusiast "if x $60K car was here, I would buy it 3 million times!!!", that thankfully manufacturers don't read and act on.
I agree that we're not missing out on much by not being able to get a 1.6L diesel in a BMW, but I do wish we got some more exciting interior choices, though. I so over being limited to charcoal, beige, or gray. Are American tastes really that bland?
So our lack of choice, tells us that our market has a multitude of choice? I don't believe that.
Most of Europe's market is saturated with choice and there are fewer buyers. Yet, there is more choice than the US market, which is larger and has more buyers.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 12:17:10 PM
If Alfa/Renault/whoever saw the opportunity to sell cars here, they would. Believe me. Your cries are the typical internet enthusiast "if x $60K car was here, I would buy it 3 million times!!!", that thankfully manufacturers don't read and act on.
Alfa, Renault and PSA have (are) trying to come back to the US. The biggest obstacle they face are government regulations on crash safety and emissions.
The small cargo van was ignored, not because the market was too small, but because government regulations made it nearly impossible to import such a car for sale here.
I'd replace my car with an RS Twingo or 500 Abarth SS (the scorpion badges alone are worth the price of admission).
Quote from: Raza link=topic=22614.msg1380227#msg1380227 date=1282072403
I'd replace my car with an RS Twingo or 500 Abarth SS (the scorpion badges alone are worth the price of admission).
The 500 will be on the market very soon.
Quote from: Raza on August 17, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
I'd replace my car with an RS Twingo or 500 Abarth SS (the scorpion badges alone are worth the price of admission).
I do think there's a huge glut of cheap fast hatches. However w/o the level of quality/utility/driving experience of something like a Fit it's a hard sell, esp in a market that's already down.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 02:00:57 PM
I do think there's a huge glut of cheap fast hatches. However w/o the level of quality/utility/driving experience of something like a Fit it's a hard sell, esp in a market that's already down.
The Fit often scores midpack in driving experience and quality in European comparisons.
European cars drive better and are more high quality (in terms of plastics).
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 11:15:16 AM
I'll leave the road taxes and autobahn argument alone, but this is the thing that I'm taking issue with. It's a travesty that Euro governments are using VAT's and other taxes to influence their consumers' buying habits, but the real tragedy is that you guys are eating it all up, naively convinced that it's for your own good.
Look, it's also a mentality thing.
Europeans don't need a 300-hp V6 Camry when a 150-hp Passat/Passat TDI is
more than adequate. Look how "successfully" the Honda Legend and Hyundai Grandeur sell here. They're powered by powerful V6 engines and ownership costs and taxation aren't that high on them - yet people don't buy them. Why? Because they don't need or want a 300-hp+ engine in a mainstream car etc.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 11:15:16 AMThe thing that I cherish most as an American is freedom.
And look where's this "freedom" has taken you. When oil shocks hit your country everyone complains and blames the manufacturers for making inefficient vehicles. It's really up to the American consumer to wake up and realize they don't need all these overpowered cars because it's part of their "freedom".
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 11:15:16 AMYou guys do what you want, but unfortunately for us, our current administration is looking your way for ideas.
This might actually be a good thing. Less dependence on foreign oil, a new generation of more environmentally-conscious Americans etc.
What was the old saying? America is 4% of the world's population and yet consumes over 25% of the worlds oil reserves just so mommy can drop off junior at soccer practice in a 400-hp V8 SUV whose power will never ever be utilized (and what's the point of such a monstrosity anyway?). Some people I know are not jealous of your "freedom". They find it silly that you all ride around in overpowered and oversized cars when smaller and weaker cars can do it just as well.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2010, 03:19:20 PMI mean, yeah 19% VAT sucks, but you get:
- Free Healthcare, that actually is legit good
- Stellar public schools
- Welfare and public assistance that goes beyond just handing you a check
Exactly. :ohyeah:
Like I said earlier, "we see the results of the taxes we pay so we put up with it". Paying less taxes would be cool, but at the same time the government does give us back these services for the taxes we pay.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Exactly. :ohyeah:
Like I said earlier, "we see the results of the taxes we pay so we put up with it". Paying less taxes would be cool, but at the same time the government does give us back these services for the taxes we pay.
It's not "we see the results of the taxes we pay so we put up with it". You haven't seen the results of not having to pay those taxes. That's why you put up with it.
You have no idea what you're missing...
We do pay a lot of taxes in the US, but we get jack shit for what we put in.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 03:40:21 PM
Personally, there aren't too many European cars not sold here that I'd consider buying. First one that comes to mind is the A5 Sportback, but the initial reviews I read gave the impression that the car was disappointingly poorly sorted out.
The A5 Sportback, like the Mercedes CLS, Passat CC etc., is more of a
Lifestyle/Designer car. The Audi A6, Mercedes E-Class and VW Passat are all more practical than their "4-door coupe" siblings, albeit less stylish.
The A5 Sportback is gorgeous though as is the Passat CC. They make the CLS look boring IMO.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 16, 2010, 03:40:21 PMAnother one I'd consider is the diesel C-class, but I don't think Mercedes could sell that here for a profit at the price point relative to other C-classes in the American market.
AFAIK MB is seriously considering bringing over the C250 CDI C-Class. :ohyeah:
Here are the stats for the C250 CDI / C250 CDI 4Matic
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/210/c250.jpg)
Quote from: MrH on August 17, 2010, 02:54:16 PM
It's not "we see the results of the taxes we pay so we put up with it". You haven't seen the results of not having to pay those taxes. That's why you put up with it.
You have no idea what you're missing...
Figuratively speaking...
Quote from: SVT32V on August 16, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
Could a normal salaried person afford a 300C with a Hemi, G8 GT like in the US that go for the price of a reasonably equipped honda minivan over here?
The 300C Hemi costs 50,000 Euros in Germany - "CHEAP PRICE" here that kind of power but still quite expensive when the running, insurance and taxation costs come into play.
Problem is, nobody buys them since the 300C CRD (diesel) is more appealing. Unlike the US, performance versions of mainstream cars don't sell very well here. If people want a performance car they'll generally go to a luxury brand, not a mainstream brand.
Also, I doubt a normal person is an extreme car enthusiast. They'll usually go for something sensible with great value like a Toyota, Citroen, VW etc.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 16, 2010, 09:26:50 PM
Obviously if I can't afford the PRICE of a Ferrari I can't afford a Ferrari... but in places like Germany the govt says 'if we had a free market, you could afford x car, but because we don't want you to drive it, we will tax the shit out of anything to do with it'. What sense does that make from anyone's POV but the govts?
Actually the underlying idea behind these fuel and car taxes are very simple.
If you drive a car that's overpowered and thirsty, then you have to pay more taxes as the government imports the fuel you burn. The more fuel you burn the more pollution you create. If you can afford to pay these taxes, then you can enjoy your car and waste as much fuel and create as much pollution as you like.
Oil is also treated as an exhaustible resource here. It's going to have its price. America has vast oil reserves (yet imports all their oil from Saudi Arabia for some reason). Europe has no oil reserves. Only the UK, Norway, Russia and Romania are relatively "self-sufficient" when it comes to oil as the UK and Norway have oil rigs in the North Sea and Russia and Romania have actual oil fields. Russia virtually supplies all of Western Europe with gas as well. And am using the term "self-sufficient" very loosely.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 12:17:10 PMThe one market I WILL say we are missing out on is the Japanese Domestic market. We missed out on a lot of excellent drivers' cars like the Nissan Cefiro and Toyota Mark II. But beyond that, and a few cool minivans, we didn't miss much.
It's safe to say the Toyota Mark II is kept in Japan because it only appeals to the Japanese (and a few enthusiasts outside of Japan). I'm no expert, but I'm willing to bet the Avalon is as premium as an American Toyota customer is willing to go before switching to Lexus or another luxury brand. If Toyota saw a market for these cars outside of Japan, then they would be sold there.
As it stands, the Mark II is offered in certain Asian markets like Hong Kong or Taiwan for example where Toyota also has the image of a premium automaker or builder of premium-inspired cars. The Mark II is definitely above the Avalon in status and marketing and I doubt it would do well in the US. How are Avalon sales?
And I believe you get the Nissan Cefiro in the US as the Maxima.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 12:17:10 PMIf Alfa/Renault/whoever saw the opportunity to sell cars here, they would. Believe me. Your cries are the typical internet enthusiast "if x $60K car was here, I would buy it 3 million times!!!", that thankfully manufacturers don't read and act on.
Alfa Romeo's are also generally bought by people who are enthusiasts and don't give a rats ass about a broken cup-holder or if the radio won't start today but will function tomorrow. It's a very unique brand with a unique clientele. There's apparently a loyal following of Alfa Romeo's in the US (see them in car forums) and these people place an emphasis on style and the driving experience over what matters to the average consumer: boring ass reliability.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 03:16:17 PM
Actually the underlying idea behind these fuel and car taxes are very simple.
If you drive a car that's overpowered and thirsty, then you have to pay more taxes as the government imports the fuel you burn. The more fuel you burn the more pollution you create. If you can afford to pay these taxes, then you can enjoy your car and waste as much fuel and create as much pollution as you like.
The govt doesn't import the fuel, an oil company imports the fuel and supplies it to you, while the govt manages to levy a tax burden to pay for public transportation and whatever else they can think to spend money on.
It is a consumption tax that is regressive in nature with the result that the very rich hardly feel it while overburdening the working class.
So basically what you are saying is that the wealthy can pollute as much as they want but the unwashed masses have to behave, wow just wow, how elitist can it get.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 03:04:14 PM
The 300C Hemi costs 50,000 Euros in Germany - "CHEAP PRICE" here that kind of power but still quite expensive when the running, insurance and taxation costs come into play.
Problem is, nobody buys them since the 300C CRD (diesel) is more appealing. Unlike the US, performance versions of mainstream cars don't sell very well here. If people want a performance car they'll generally go to a luxury brand, not a mainstream brand.
So the only people that can have a large powerful car are those that can afford a luxury brand, once again, one rule for the rich and another for the proletariat
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 03:59:02 PM
So the only people that can have a large powerful car are those that can afford a luxury brand, once again, one rule for the rich and another for the proletariat
The Chrysler 300 is a luxury car. Can't people in the US who can afford the luxury makes typically be the ones who are well off?
Besides, there are numerous high-po midsize cars in Europe. (Insignia VXR....)
Quote from: 2o6 on August 17, 2010, 04:03:02 PM
The Chrysler 300 is a luxury car. Can't people in the US who can afford the luxury makes typically be the ones who are well off?
Besides, there are numerous high-po midsize cars in Europe. (Insignia VXR....)
Yes the chrsyler 300 is a luxury car and starts at $28K, we have been through this and you have failed to prove your point. This is not much more than your avg. family car. A 4cyl accord starts at $21K and ends at over 31K, with 4cyl models starting at up to $26K. A 300 is not only for the well off but is extremely affordable. The similar charger can be had at less than the price of the 4 cyl Accord EX-L.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 02:39:45 PM
Look, it's also a mentality thing.
Europeans don't need a 300-hp V6 Camry when a 150-hp Passat/Passat TDI is more than adequate. Look how "successfully" the Honda Legend and Hyundai Grandeur sell here. They're powered by powerful V6 engines and ownership costs and taxation aren't that high on them - yet people don't buy them. Why? Because they don't need or want a 300-hp+ engine in a mainstream car etc.
And look where's this "freedom" has taken you. When oil shocks hit your country everyone complains and blames the manufacturers for making inefficient vehicles. It's really up to the American consumer to wake up and realize they don't need all these overpowered cars because it's part of their "freedom".
This might actually be a good thing. Less dependence on foreign oil, a new generation of more environmentally-conscious Americans etc.
What was the old saying? America is 4% of the world's population and yet consumes over 25% of the worlds oil reserves just so mommy can drop off junior at soccer practice in a 400-hp V8 SUV whose power will never ever be utilized (and what's the point of such a monstrosity anyway?). Some people I know are not jealous of your "freedom". They find it silly that you all ride around in overpowered and oversized cars when smaller and weaker cars can do it just as well.
And I find it silly that a small Kia hatchback could ever be awarded a title of "tow vehicle of the year". But that's exactly what a European publication did a while back.
You're right, it's a difference in mentality. I find it disturbing that Europeans have a mentality of letting their governments decide what's best for them, and a mentality of always questioning whether someone "needs" a powerful car, instead of just accepting that's what some people
want.Plenty of people in America make energy-conscious decisions when they buy a car. Probably the most popular vehicle type besides the 1/2-ton truck (which is sold mostly to fleets, btw), is the midsize sedan with the 4-cylinder engine. The Prius occasionally makes appearences in the top 20 sales charts. But I appreciate being able to buy a car with a lot more muscle for not a lot more money, and people who look down on that as a bad thing seem a bit disingenuous, to be honest.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 02:58:06 PM
The A5 Sportback, like the Mercedes CLS, Passat CC etc., is more of a Lifestyle/Designer car. The Audi A6, Mercedes E-Class and VW Passat are all more practical than their "4-door coupe" siblings, albeit less stylish.
The A5 Sportback is gorgeous though as is the Passat CC. They make the CLS look boring IMO.
AFAIK MB is seriously considering bringing over the C250 CDI C-Class. :ohyeah:
Here are the stats for the C250 CDI / C250 CDI 4Matic
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/210/c250.jpg)
I was referring to the driving dynamics when I said that the car seemes poorly sorted out. I don't know what the excuse for that would be.
I definitely wouldn't mind a C250 diesel, but it'll have to be priced somewhat below the C300. I see that in Germany, the 250 CDI is actually ?1.000 more than the petrol C300, and that would be a hard sell here in the U.S. IIRC, the BMW 335d costs more than the 335i, and there are barely any on the road here.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 04:24:51 PM
Yes the chrsyler 300 is a luxury car and starts at $28K, we have been through this and you have failed to prove your point. This is not much more than your avg. family car. A 4cyl accord starts at $21K and ends at over 31K, with 4cyl models starting at up to $26K. A 300 is not only for the well off but is extremely affordable. The similar charger can be had at less than the price of the 4 cyl Accord EX-L.
And the E-class can proportionally start as cheap in Europe, if not cheaper.
The 300 starts at 300K, and goes well into the high 40's and 50's.
Not even close an E-class starts at 41,590 Euros in Germany or over $53K, and that is for a base.
Price list in Germany.
E 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?41,590
E 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 BlueTEC - ?53,371
E 350 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?50,991
E 350 CDI 4MATIC BlueEFFICIENCY - ?53,728
E 250 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?51,943
E 350 4MATIC - ?53,728
E 500 - ?67,532
E 500 4MATIC - ?70,269
The SRT-8 with every option can only reach $49K and starts at $44K, let alone a 300C and none reach the $50K mark.
Let us review:
300 - $28K
E350 - $53K
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 05:24:26 PM
Not even close an E-class starts at 41,590 Euros in Germany or over $53K, and that is for a base.
Price list in Germany.
E 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?41,590
E 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 BlueTEC - ?53,371
E 350 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?50,991
E 350 CDI 4MATIC BlueEFFICIENCY - ?53,728
E 250 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?51,943
E 350 4MATIC - ?53,728
E 500 - ?67,532
E 500 4MATIC - ?70,269
The SRT-8 with every option can only reach $49K and starts at $44K, let alone a 300C and none reach the $50K mark.
Let us review:
300 - $28K
E350 - $53K
Not an accurate comparison. Euro prices cannot be directly converted to US currency to determine how much that car would cost in the US. In many cases, national taxes are already included in the list price of European market cars. What does a Chrysler 300 start at in Germany?
EDIT: Just looked it up. A Chrysler 300C 5.7L starts at 51,990 Euros (including taxes, like with the Merc prices listed above), which is roughly $66.9K USD. The base Chrysler 300 (which uses a diesel V6) is 43,390 Euro, or about $55.8K.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 03:16:17 PM
Actually the underlying idea behind these fuel and car taxes are very simple.
If you drive a car that's overpowered and thirsty, then you have to pay more taxes as the government imports the fuel you burn. The more fuel you burn the more pollution you create. If you can afford to pay these taxes, then you can enjoy your car and waste as much fuel and create as much pollution as you like.
Oil is also treated as an exhaustible resource here. It's going to have its price. America has vast oil reserves (yet imports all their oil from Saudi Arabia for some reason). Europe has no oil reserves. Only the UK, Norway, Russia and Romania are relatively "self-sufficient" when it comes to oil as the UK and Norway have oil rigs in the North Sea and Russia and Romania have actual oil fields. Russia virtually supplies all of Western Europe with gas as well. And am using the term "self-sufficient" very loosely.
Yea but from what I understand fuel taxes seem to be exponential. In the US, if your car consumes twice as much gas as another car, you pay twice as much in fuel cost. In Germany it seems like cars with high displacement engines get taxed at lot at purchase price, on top of the 200% gas tax. I think that's an underlying problem here- what exactly IS the tax structure for cars in Germany? There's no reason a Chrysler 300C Hemi should cost $40K here and $80-90K (50K Euros)there, and I'm attributing that gross difference in price solely to taxes.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2010, 03:26:01 PM
Alfa Romeo's are also generally bought by people who are enthusiasts and don't give a rats ass about a broken cup-holder or if the radio won't start today but will function tomorrow. It's a very unique brand with a unique clientele. There's apparently a loyal following of Alfa Romeo's in the US (see them in car forums) and these people place an emphasis on style and the driving experience over what matters to the average consumer: boring ass reliability.
You don't think there are any auto enthusiasts in the US? :wtf:
Alfa/Renault/Peugeot didn't fail because Americans like boring cars :wtf: They failed because they had the fatal combination of being incredibly poorly made/engineered, heavily prone to rust, and unable to service due to weak dealer networks. So you buy an Alfa, you pay a premium for a car that's great when it runs, but generally doesn't run & is hard to find a mechanic for. You'd have to be an idiot (or an anal retentive enthusiast) to buy another one. Lol, you can't have it both ways- Americans are either power hungry speed demons or we are paper pushing accountants who only care about reliability.
The reality is Americans like cars w/response that will start up in the morning... that is reflected in the cars that are most popular here. Like Germans most Americans aren't enthusiasts- but we also don't give a shit about "brand appeal" and image. We like VALUE.
Quote from: MX793 on August 17, 2010, 05:33:28 PM
Not an accurate comparison. Euro prices cannot be directly converted to US currency to determine how much that car would cost in the US. In many cases, national taxes are already included in the list price of European market cars. What does a Chrysler 300 start at in Germany?
That was not my argument, his argument that an E-class is as cheap in germany as a 300 is in the US. The answer is no, the chepaest E-class is more expensive in germany than the most expensive 300 in the US.
A different and more telling question is how affordable they are to the avg household.
based on US dollars:
Median income US - $52K
Median german income -$44K
QuoteAmerica has vast oil reserves (yet imports all their oil from Saudi Arabia for some reason)
Actually, most of our imported oil comes from Canada and Mexico. I wished we drilled for more oil in the Gulf and in Alaska, but red tape and the recent screw up from BP will keep that from happening.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 05:24:26 PM
Not even close an E-class starts at 41,590 Euros in Germany or over $53K, and that is for a base.
Price list in Germany.
E 220 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?41,590
E 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 BlueTEC - ?53,371
E 350 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?50,991
E 350 CDI 4MATIC BlueEFFICIENCY - ?53,728
E 250 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?44,506
E 350 CGI BlueEFFICIENCY - ?51,943
E 350 4MATIC - ?53,728
E 500 - ?67,532
E 500 4MATIC - ?70,269
The SRT-8 with every option can only reach $49K and starts at $44K, let alone a 300C and none reach the $50K mark.
Let us review:
300 - $28K
E350 - $53K
I meant in proportion to the market. Comparing actual price is irrelevant.
For example:
Opel Insignia (2.0D) = 27K (Euros)
BMW 520d = 39L (Euros)
Not too big of a proportional difference from a
Camry = 19K USD
And a Chrysler 300 (V6)= 28K.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 05:51:12 PM
Yea but from what I understand fuel taxes seem to be exponential. In the US, if your car consumes twice as much gas as another car, you pay twice as much in fuel cost. In Germany it seems like cars with high displacement engines get taxed at lot at purchase price, on top of the 200% gas tax. I think that's an underlying problem here- what exactly IS the tax structure for cars in Germany? There's no reason a Chrysler 300C Hemi should cost $40K here and $80-90K (50K Euros)there, and I'm attributing that gross difference in price solely to taxes.
You don't think there are any auto enthusiasts in the US? :wtf:
- VAT jacks up the sale price.
- Chrysler 300 is imported into Germany (another tax, foreign vehicle)
- 300 had to be reengineered to pass crash and emissions. More $$$ added.
- Even so, IIRC the taxes are YEARLY and are not added on at the purchase price.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 10:45:11 AM
I disagree; it's completely relevant. If Americans all of a sudden wanted more A- and B-segment hatchbacks, and C-segment people movers, then the market would respond. Our regulations aren't what's keeping them from our sales lots. If anything, CAFE encourages the sales of smaller Euro-type cars.
But I was responding to the criticism of European government imposing regulations on the market.
The point I am making is that just the same thing happens in the US. You've actually just defended it.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 11:42:40 AM
And the higher transaction prices are a result of this lack of economy-of-scale.
I doubt this is the whole picture. Even cars which sell in higher volume in Europe (vs the US) are no cheaper.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 17, 2010, 08:21:23 PM
- Chrysler 300 is imported into Germany (another tax, foreign vehicle)
From Austria, another EU country, so I don't think any added taxes apply.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 17, 2010, 10:34:43 AM
That seems untrue. I'm sure it's been said before on here that certain cars can't be sold in the US as they don't meet certain regulations, even though these cars satisfy European standards.
Right. How is the USA having its own regulations different from the EU or Asian markets having their own regulations? Seriously, think about what you're saying here. The USA market is not more restrictive than the European market. If anything, it's less so as our CO2 and pedestrian safety regulations are significantly more lax.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 09:13:57 AM
Right. How is the USA having its own regulations different from the EU or Asian markets having their own regulations? Seriously, think about what you're saying here. The USA market is not more restrictive than the European market. If anything, it's less so as our CO2 and pedestrian safety regulations are significantly more lax.
I don't think it's more so "lax" but different. For example, IIRC the 1st gen Sedona got 5-stars in NHSTA. However, the same model in EuroNCAP got 2-3 stars.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 09:13:57 AM
Right. How is the USA having its own regulations different from the EU or Asian markets having their own regulations? Seriously, think about what you're saying here. The USA market is not more restrictive than the European market. If anything, it's less so as our CO2 and pedestrian safety regulations are significantly more lax.
Because the European regulations penalise you financially whereas US regulations prohibit certain vehicles full stop.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 18, 2010, 01:13:15 PM
I don't think it's more so "lax" but different. For example, IIRC the 1st gen Sedona got 5-stars in NHSTA. However, the same model in EuroNCAP got 2-3 stars.
Well that would mean NHTSA is more lax, wouldn't it?
(It should be noted NHTSA (and IIHS) and EuroNCAP programs aren't 'standards': a car doesn't 'pass' or 'fail', it just gets a score.)
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 18, 2010, 01:15:19 PM
Because the European regulations penalise you financially whereas US regulations prohibit certain vehicles full stop.
You're wrong.
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/technical_implications_road_safety/n26030_en.htm
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 03:56:03 PMIt is a consumption tax that is regressive in nature with the result that the very rich hardly feel it while overburdening the working class.
The tax system in Europe, at least in Germany, is that people of a certain income below the norm don't have to pay taxes. People are taxed according to their income. The wealthier you are, the higher the amount of taxes you pay. If you make less than say 10,000 Euros a year, you are exempt from paying taxes.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 03:56:03 PMSo basically what you are saying is that the wealthy can pollute as much as they want but the unwashed masses have to behave, wow just wow, how elitist can it get.
Where the hell do I say this? You're spinning my posts.
Anyone who drives an overpowered car can do so as they please but they have to pay the taxes that come with it. And with reason. If they can afford to own such a car they certainly can afford to pay the taxes that come with it. In other words: you pay for your "driving fun".
All cars are taxed here. A lowly Daewoo Matiz and a big displacement Dodge Viper have engine cc taxes.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 17, 2010, 03:59:02 PM
So the only people that can have a large powerful car are those that can afford a luxury brand, once again, one rule for the rich and another for the proletariat
Um...
Since when do poor people own luxury cars? Are there trailer trash rednecks in the US that drive around in the latest Lexus? If you can't afford a luxury car then you sure as hell shouldn't be buying one. It's that simple.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 04:36:20 PM
And I find it silly that a small Kia hatchback could ever be awarded a title of "tow vehicle of the year". But that's exactly what a European publication did a while back.
Well, we use smaller cars to tow things. What's the problem? :huh:
What car did you want this European publication to select as the "tow vehicle of the year"? A Ford pickup with a 49.9-l V24 engine and 9483508530959480954 lb/ft of torque that gets 0.9 mpg but hey it does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and a 10 second flat 1/4 mile? :huh:
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 04:36:20 PMYou're right, it's a difference in mentality. I find it disturbing that Europeans have a mentality of letting their governments decide what's best for them, and a mentality of always questioning whether someone "needs" a powerful car, instead of just accepting that's what some people want.
These car taxes mainly came into existence after the oil shocks of the 1970s. Prior to that owning a car was simple, just like in America. Gas was relatively cheap (no gas tax) to.
AND YET PEOPLE HERE STILL DROVE SMALLER CARS WITH SMALLER ENGINES.Nobody was really "bothered" by the introduction of these laws - figuratively speaking - because most people owned a normal car with a normal small engine. And those that could afford more powerful, thirstier cars could easily afford to pay the resulting costs of ownership. Big deal. :huh:
I'll say it again: For the most part these laws have made us as a society more environmentally conscious. Because of this we buy cars that suit our needs and financial situation. If power and performance means all to me then I am willing to buy a C63 AMG and live with the costs and taxation. But if I want a nice luxury car that's both sensible and performs well, I'll stick to a normal C220 CDI or C200 Kompressor. It still gets me from A to B in the same amount of time as a C63 AMG - literally.
And yes, Europeans as a whole are more conscious of the environment than Americans. There are various publications on this (Read books from Thomas L. Friedman on this subject) and in my experience this seems to be true. When I was in college I always had American roommates. These guys were usually "study abroad" student studying for one or two semesters abroad. Well, in the mornings while shaving and waiting for the foam to work its magic they left the water running instead of turning it off. They leave the lights running in the dorm when they leave the room for a night out. They leave the TV in the common room running (and the lights there) when nobody is in that room. They fill their plates with food and only eat half of it. Every semester until my graduation this was the case - and it was always the case with my new roommates and the new study abroads. I'm sorry, but this to me is an indication that America is a pretty wasteful society that takes many things for granted - including energy (cheap gas, electricity etc.).
Not all study abroads were like this, but most.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 04:36:20 PMPlenty of people in America make energy-conscious decisions when they buy a car. Probably the most popular vehicle type besides the 1/2-ton truck (which is sold mostly to fleets, btw), is the midsize sedan with the 4-cylinder engine. The Prius occasionally makes appearences in the top 20 sales charts. But I appreciate being able to buy a car with a lot more muscle for not a lot more money, and people who look down on that as a bad thing seem a bit disingenuous, to be honest.
Look, I understand that you guys don't get "the most efficient vehicles" in your market - and the problem is (correct me if I am wrong) that most Americans couldn't be bothered to complain. You get a Camry 4-cylinder and a Camry V6. While the 4-cylinder Camry is probably relatively efficient, a similar model with an even smaller engine or a diesel perhaps can get the mileage some people want - and offers all the power some people need/will ever use. Let's be honest, I don't think the majority of Camry, Sonata, Accord, Malibu etc. shoppers care too much about performance - and if they do then they at least have a selection if more engine choices are offered. They can choose from a Camry say 1.6 4-cylinder, 2.0 4-cylinder, 2.0 diesel, 3.5 V6...
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 01:43:29 PM
You're wrong.
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/technical_implications_road_safety/n26030_en.htm
That applies to new cars. There's always regulations that manufacturers have to adhere to when designing cars. Let's say that there's a car which is not made available officially on the market due to lack of market demand, not meeting safety regs, whatever. In the UK, you are free to import this car personally and drive it. In the US you aren't.
I've read that it is illegal to drive cars such as the Nissan Skyline, Porsche 959 and Pagani Zonda in the US. This is what I'm getting out, for the eleventy millionth time.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 17, 2010, 04:49:10 PM
I definitely wouldn't mind a C250 diesel, but it'll have to be priced somewhat below the C300. I see that in Germany, the 250 CDI is actually ?1.000 more than the petrol C300, and that would be a hard sell here in the U.S. IIRC, the BMW 335d costs more than the 335i, and there are barely any on the road here.
Diesels have always been more expensive than their gasoline counterparts. It's always been this way in Europe since the 1950s when Mercedes began selling diesel passenger cars on a massive scale. The diesel versions were slower, louder and more expensive than their gasoline counterparts yet they still sold "fairly well".
It's no different today. Diesels cost more, but if you drive a lot you'll break even quicker. Diesels also make sense for certain cars. In Europe diesels don't make as much sense in small city-type cars (1er, Ford Ka, Citroen C1, A-Class etc.) because they don't generally do over 15-20,000 km a year. In the BMW 3er and 5er class it's usually a 50/50 issue depending on how much the owner drives. In the 7er and SUV class diesels make a lot of sense, even if the owner doesn't approach 15,000 km a year.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2010, 03:06:14 PM
These car taxes mainly came into existence after the oil shocks of the 1970s. Prior to that owning a car was simple, just like in America. Gas was relatively cheap (no gas tax) to.
AND YET PEOPLE HERE STILL DROVE SMALLER CARS WITH SMALLER ENGINES.
Gasoline has always been more expensive in Europe. Owning a car has always been more expensive in Europe.
People in Europe drive 1.6 L diesels and such because they can't afford anything better. Trust me. You don't see recent European immigrants over here clamoring for some underpowered shitbox: they get big, powerful cars like any other North American. Because that's what they want, and they can afford it here whereas they couldn't back home.
Diesels, IME, are often owned by people who keep their cars for longer and cover higher mileages.
My uncle, who is a taxi driver, has a B5 Passat TDI and it's done 300,000 miles with no sign of giving up.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 05:51:12 PM
Yea but from what I understand fuel taxes seem to be exponential. In the US, if your car consumes twice as much gas as another car, you pay twice as much in fuel cost. In Germany it seems like cars with high displacement engines get taxed at lot at purchase price, on top of the 200% gas tax. I think that's an underlying problem here- what exactly IS the tax structure for cars in Germany? There's no reason a Chrysler 300C Hemi should cost $40K here and $80-90K (50K Euros)there, and I'm attributing that gross difference in price solely to taxes.
I'm not an expert on the tax structure here for cars. But as far as I know, the purchase price doesn't include any engine displacement tax, just the government mandated 19% VAT.
And again, the idea behind this automotive tax system in Europe is simple. You drive a powerful and thirsty car, you pay more taxes because of this power etc. Because of this most people are realistic in their car-buying-habits. And let's be honest - not everyone wants a performance car. The people who usually buy these performance cars that get the "hell taxed out of them" are car enthusiasts and they're willing to put up with this tax. And they're probably used to it, like most of us are since we grow up with it.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 05:51:12 PMYou don't think there are any auto enthusiasts in the US? :wtf:
Nope. There are no car enthusiasts in America. You guys love Toyota Camry's instead of Plymouth Volare's... :evildude:
My point was that the market for Alfa Romeo's in the US will be very small. It will be limited to people who:
1) Appreciate the brand for what it is and are willing to put up with its faults
2) Don't give a rats ass about reliability, especially since modern Alfa Romeo's are quite reliable, but not perfect (no car is)
3) Appreciate interesting and unique design / want to be different by driving an Alfa
I'll be honest. I know that an Alfa Romeo won't be as reliable as a Toyota. But I sure as hell would pick most Alfa Romeo's over any Toyota because - GUESS WHAT? - I appreciate and want to drive a car that looks good, is relatively fun and isn't as boring and dull as every Toyota sold outside of the Japanese Home Market. Period.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2010, 05:51:12 PMThe reality is Americans like cars w/response that will start up in the morning... that is reflected in the cars that are most popular here. Like Germans most Americans aren't enthusiasts- but we also don't give a shit about "brand appeal" and image. We like VALUE.
[/quote]
Yeah, you like value so much. Everything has to be cheap. I'm surprised Rolls Royce hasn't lowered their prices yet to appeal to American luxury buyers... :evildude:
We like value to. Who doesn't? But Europeans also don't want useless crap in their cars that they'll never use. And where you expect the full package, we'd rather buy a premium car with a sensible engine and spend money on the features we want and will use.
Quote from: 93JC on August 18, 2010, 03:13:48 PM
Gasoline has always been more expensive in Europe. Owning a car has always been more expensive in Europe.
True. Gasoline was always "expensive" in Europe, but not as expensive as it became in the early 1980s with the introduction of the 67%
?kosteuer tax. Prior to this there was no tax on the fuel.
Also, with more fuel-efficient cars being sold in Europe, the price of fuel has become more "tolerable".
Quote from: 93JC on August 18, 2010, 03:13:48 PMPeople in Europe drive 1.6 L diesels and such because they can't afford anything better. Trust me. You don't see recent European immigrants over here clamoring for some underpowered shitbox: they get big, powerful cars like any other North American. Because that's what they want, and they can afford it here whereas they couldn't back home.
Isn't that the "American Dream"? Owning a big house, a
big car and a big family...? :huh:
Many people here can afford for more powerful cars - they just don't buy them for reasons that only they can answer. They don't need the power, they don't want to pay more money than they really have to etc.
Hell, I'm sure if I lived in America I'd probably be tempted to drive some incredibly fuel-inefficient 1970s American landyacht (preferably a Plymouth Volare) because the experience of owning such a car there in complete "freedom" is different from owning it here. Then again, a car from the 1970s here in Europe won't be taxed at all if it has a HISTORIC LICENSE PLATE.
" I appreciate and want to drive a car that looks good, is relatively fun and isn't as boring and dull as every Toyota sold outside of the Japanese Home Market."
Barring AMGs, why are you a Mercedes fan, then?
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 18, 2010, 03:33:08 PM
" I appreciate and want to drive a car that looks good, is relatively fun and isn't as boring and dull as every Toyota sold outside of the Japanese Home Market."
Barring AMGs, why are you a Mercedes fan, then?
Nice try at baiting me. :evildude:
Quote from: 2o6 on August 17, 2010, 08:21:23 PM
For example:
Opel Insignia (2.0D) = 27K (Euros)
BMW 520d = 39L (Euros)
Not too big of a proportional difference from a
Camry = 19K USD
And a Chrysler 300 (V6)= 28K.
The opel insignia is not analogous to a base camry, it is a large car by euro standards, more posh, heavy and expensive than your avg. family car in Europe.
If anything it is analogous to the Chrysler 300 in the US.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 03:39:05 PM
The opel insignia is not analogous to a base camry, it is a large car by euro standards, more posh, heavy and expensive than your avg. family car in Europe.
If anything it is analogous to the Chrysler 300 in the US.
You can purchase the Open Insignia here in many different trims and base form:
1) Stripper version
2) Well-equipped version
3) Performance (OPC) version
This same concept applies to all its rivals as well: the Skoda Superb, Citroen C5, Renault Laguna, Alfa Romeo 159, TOYOTA AVENSIS (no performance version here though), Volkswagen Passat etc.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2010, 03:24:26 PM
My point was that the market for Alfa Romeo's in the US will be very small. It will be limited to people who:
1) Appreciate the brand for what it is and are willing to put up with its faults
2) Don't give a rats ass about reliability, especially since modern Alfa Romeo's are quite reliable, but not perfect (no car is)
3) Appreciate interesting and unique design / want to be different by driving an Alfa
Everyone who owns a car cares about reliability. I'm guessing conditions are different in Europe, because here most Alfas have rusted out of existence. You can't tell me that you'd be happy buying a brand new car that would disintegrate in less than 5 years, and that's what happened to a lot of the non-galvanized Italian/French cars that came here. The Japanese had similar problems, but unlike the French/Italians, they managed to see the issues and correct them by the mid 80s. The French/Italians slipped up at the worst time- the decades when American cars turned shitty- and Americans have been turned off ever since.
And Americans are huge on unique machines that speak to their personalities. That is why cars like the Mustang, PT Cruiser, New Beetle, Mini Cooper etc have been so popular. Not to mention all the enthusiast communities & aftermarket industries for cars as diminutive as the Honda Civic. However, all of those cars are also relatively reliable & cheap to operate, unlike the Alfas/Renaults etc that we remember from the 70s/80s. Downplaying the importance of reliability is silly- a car is worthless if it doesn't run right 90% of the time, no matter how much heritage or character is has.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 03:39:05 PM
The opel insignia is not analogous to a base camry, it is a large car by euro standards, more posh, heavy and expensive than your avg. family car in Europe.
If anything it is analogous to the Chrysler 300 in the US.
The Opel Insignia, Toyota Avensis (Camry is not sold in most of Europe), Ford Mondeo, and EU Accord all form the D-segment midsize segment.
The price quoted is a base level 2.0D model.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2010, 03:41:17 PM
You can purchase the Open Insignia here in many different trims and base form:
1) Stripper version
2) Well-equipped version
3) Performance (OPC) version
This same concept applies to all its rivals as well: the Skoda Superb, Citroen C5, Renault Laguna, Alfa Romeo 159, TOYOTA AVENSIS (no performance version here though), Volkswagen Passat etc.
The 2.0d is not the stripper model, the 1.6 is, big difference between the diesel and 1.6 liter.
Again this is a more premium car class than the $21K 4 cyl camcord peasant car that was the analogy.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 03:53:13 PM
The 2.0d is not the stripper model, the 1.6 is, big difference between the diesel and 1.6 liter.
Again this is a more premium car class than the $21K 4 cyl camcord peasant car that was the analogy.
No, not really. Because in stark outward terms, the C-class and 3-series are viewed as popular alternatives to the midsize segment.(I used the 520d because it was more so close in size to the Chrysler 300)
Prices from Germany to the US are not directly comparable. Direct conversions mean nothing.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 18, 2010, 03:59:28 PM
No, not really. Because in stark outward terms, the C-class and 3-series are viewed as popular alternatives to the midsize segment.(I used the 520d because it was more so close in size to the Chrysler 300)
Prices from Germany to the US are not directly comparable. Direct conversions mean nothing.
Actually you used E class for comparison, then picked the cheaper 520d.
Further just like prices car not directly comparable neither can you compare car size. Clearly the avg auto owned in the US is larger than the avg Euro car.
The better comparison or the one you alluded to by picking the 4 cyl camry (best selling car in the US) would be the most popular car (car class) sold in europe. It will be quite a bit smaller than what you describe as D-class.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 04:06:05 PM
Actually you used E class for comparison, then picked the cheaper 520d.
Further just like prices car not directly comparable neither can you compare car size. Clearly the avg auto owned in the US is larger than the avg Euro car.
The better comparison or the one you alluded to by picking the 4 cyl camry (best selling car in the US) would be the most popular car (car class) sold in europe. It will be quite a bit smaller than what you describe as D-class.
So......what are you getting at?
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 18, 2010, 03:06:56 PM
That applies to new cars. There's always regulations that manufacturers have to adhere to when designing cars. Let's say that there's a car which is not made available officially on the market due to lack of market demand, not meeting safety regs, whatever. In the UK, you are free to import this car personally and drive it. In the US you aren't.
I've read that it is illegal to drive cars such as the Nissan Skyline, Porsche 959 and Pagani Zonda in the US. This is what I'm getting out, for the eleventy millionth time.
Those cars weren't designed for USA regulations. I have a hard time believing that you can just import a car into a European country without proving that it meets European regulations.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 04:09:12 PM
Those cars weren't designed for USA regulations. I have a hard time believing that you can just import a car into a European country without proving that it meets European regulations.
IIRC, there's a roadworthy test.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 18, 2010, 04:10:42 PM
Buy a plate, and you will be fine. People do it all the time.
?
In the USA or in Europe? If it's the former, then obviously that's illegal.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 04:14:59 PM
?
In the USA or in Europe? If it's the former, then obviously that's illegal.
In Europe......
Even so, most countries have a roadworthy test/check and some papers to fill out. IIRC, you have to pay taxes on the car as well.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2010, 03:06:14 PM
Well, we use smaller cars to tow things. What's the problem? :huh:
What car did you want this European publication to select as the "tow vehicle of the year"? A Ford pickup with a 49.9-l V24 engine and 9483508530959480954 lb/ft of torque that gets 0.9 mpg but hey it does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and a 10 second flat 1/4 mile? :huh:
if I wasn't blocked from youtube at the office, I'd post a link to that one video of the tiny European hatchback bellowing smoke from the hood as it as towing the caravan up a hill, only to rol backwards down the hill a few seconds later as the car conked out. So yeah, an F150 makes a ton of more sense to tow something with.
QuoteLook, I understand that you guys don't get "the most efficient vehicles" in your market - and the problem is (correct me if I am wrong) that most Americans couldn't be bothered to complain. You get a Camry 4-cylinder and a Camry V6. While the 4-cylinder Camry is probably relatively efficient, a similar model with an even smaller engine or a diesel perhaps can get the mileage some people want - and offers all the power some people need/will ever use. Let's be honest, I don't think the majority of Camry, Sonata, Accord, Malibu etc. shoppers care too much about performance - and if they do then they at least have a selection if more engine choices are offered. They can choose from a Camry say 1.6 4-cylinder, 2.0 4-cylinder, 2.0 diesel, 3.5 V6...
And the additional engine choices add more cost to the car, which is spread throughout the whole product line. The additional cost of setting up an extra production line for another engine option has to be justified in the number of additional buyers who choose that option. The vast majority of the time, buyers are fine with just choosing between a ~2.5L four, and a ~3.5L V6, meaning that carmakers don't have much to gain by offering more engine options in America. And besides, smaller engines have to work harder than bigger engines anyway, to move the same amount of mass, which negates the purpose of driving a car with a smaller engine. This is the reason the gen.3 Prius has a larger motor for the purpose of fuel economy.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 18, 2010, 03:48:20 PM
Everyone who owns a car cares about reliability. I'm guessing conditions are different in Europe, because here most Alfas have rusted out of existence. You can't tell me that you'd be happy buying a brand new car that would disintegrate in less than 5 years, and that's what happened to a lot of the non-galvanized Italian/French cars that came here. The Japanese had similar problems, but unlike the French/Italians, they managed to see the issues and correct them by the mid 80s. The French/Italians slipped up at the worst time- the decades when American cars turned shitty- and Americans have been turned off ever since.
Reliability is important, no argument there, but it's not everything. People make it sound as if NOTHING ever goes wrong on a Toyota and every little thing on a different brand is considered "unreliable". Give me a break. I can already see what
Consumer Reports would say on a car like my dad's 1989 Mercedes 500SL. Spark plugs fouled up at around 160,000 km = unreliable, don't buy this POS! Get a Camry! Roof mechanism needed adjusting on three separate occasions past 150,000 km = unreliable, get a Solara convertible instead! :facepalm:
These are small issues at best and have nothing to do with reliability. The spark plugs (I even made a thread about this problem here) turned out to have gotten in contact with moisture because the car was stored in an underground parking garage during the winter. And the roof mechanism needed some adjusting, a normal procedure for R129 SL's as constant use of this feature will eventually cause slight alignment problems. Things like this can happen to many cars and the people who don't want to put up with something as trivial as this can go drive some boring Solara convertible, which will definitely experience roof alignment problems at some point in their lives. Oh how unreliable!
A modern Alfa Romeo is a fairly reliable car. Build quality has improved and so has reliability. I'm not saying they're going to be as bulletproof as an average Toyota, but I'd sure as hell give up some of that bulletproof reliability for a car that looks good, drives good and will make me smile (and is fairly reliable) than some reliable,
but that's it, Toyota.
Also, there are tons of older Alfa Romeo's still driving around on the streets of Europe. You'll see these in my Spotted Today posts from time to time: classic Alfa Spider's, 2000GT Coupe, Giulia's etc. Europe - four seasons. Give these cars some maintenance and care and they can last.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 18, 2010, 03:48:20 PMAnd Americans are huge on unique machines that speak to their personalities. That is why cars like the Mustang, PT Cruiser, New Beetle, Mini Cooper etc have been so popular. Not to mention all the enthusiast communities & aftermarket industries for cars as diminutive as the Honda Civic. However, all of those cars are also relatively reliable & cheap to operate, unlike the Alfas/Renaults etc that we remember from the 70s/80s. Downplaying the importance of reliability is silly- a car is worthless if it doesn't run right 90% of the time, no matter how much heritage or character is has.
Again, you're making it sound as if these cars are chronically unreliable. If Alfa Romeo's or Renault's were so unreliable, please tell me why they are still in business?
Reliability is important in Europe to, but people are also willing to put up with a few cars that might not be as reliable, but offer great design, a unique driving experience etc. in return. Those Europeans who seek bulletproof reliability and value go to Toyota and Honda.
Not everyone who buys an Alfa Romeo or Renault will experience piss poor reliability. Hell, not everyone who buys a Toyota will experience great reliability. There's a guy in M?hldorf, a friend of my father who a few years ago bought a Toyota Landcruiser - which turned out to be very unreliable experiencing mechanical and electronic problems. He got rid of it -
AND - bought a Mercedes ML270 CDI
FIRST GENERATION M-CLASS, which has been surprisingly flawless. :mask:
Every brand has lemons, every brand has reliable cars. That's the moral of the story. Besides, Toyota reliability, in my experience, is so overrated.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 03:53:13 PM
The 2.0d is not the stripper model, the 1.6 is, big difference between the diesel and 1.6 liter.
In American terms, the 2.0d is a stripper model. It will have a few more standard features than lower-modeled Insignia's, but it's still a "standard equipped" model. For the options that might matter, you still need to pay.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 18, 2010, 04:30:04 PM
if I wasn't blocked from youtube at the office, I'd post a link to that one video of the tiny European hatchback bellowing smoke from the hood as it as towing the caravan up a hill, only to rol backwards down the hill a few seconds later as the car conked out. So yeah, an F150 makes a ton of more sense to tow something with.
Let's be realistic here for a second. Nobody will use some really small compact city car here to tow a trailer etc. Cars here have to a have a maximum allowed towing rating which clearly defines how much they can tow.
Towing a big trailer is however no problem with cars like the BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4, Ford Focus/Mondeo, Citroen C5 etc.. In the summers you often see such cars towing a mobile home on the Autobahns or on country roads. It's not an issue for these cars, which can be had with economical engines - and these are mostly used for towing. Most C-Classes I see, W202, W203 and W204, that tow homes are C220 CDI's with 150-170-horsepower.
(http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/2/1280/8749441/eee-42792.jpg)
A Ford F-150 isn't needed.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 18, 2010, 04:30:04 PMAnd the additional engine choices add more cost to the car, which is spread throughout the whole product line. The additional cost of setting up an extra production line for another engine option has to be justified in the number of additional buyers who choose that option. The vast majority of the time, buyers are fine with just choosing between a ~2.5L four, and a ~3.5L V6, meaning that carmakers don't have much to gain by offering more engine options in America.
I don't see a problem with the amount of engine choices that the European makes offer. Outside of the US, smaller engines dominate which pay of the development and production costs the manufacturers experience. In the US, the majority of these bigger engines are sold. It's a game that works.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 18, 2010, 04:30:04 PMAnd besides, smaller engines have to work harder than bigger engines anyway, to move the same amount of mass, which negates the purpose of driving a car with a smaller engine. This is the reason the gen.3 Prius has a larger motor for the purpose of fuel economy.
Most of these smaller engines produce a respectable amount of torque and most transmissions will have a 1st and 2nd gear with lower ratios that makes acceleration smoother for the occupants and the engine. The notion that a smaller engine "has to work harder to move the same mass" in this case isn't really an argument. While this might be true for the acceleration stage, in cruising mode these engines will get much better fuel economy than their bigger counterparts.
Europeans = communists.
Americans = fat.
Now, quiet y'all. :nono:
Quote from: omicron on August 19, 2010, 07:04:28 AM
Europeans = communists.
Americans = fat.
Now, quiet y'all. :nono:
And Australians = ? :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:35:29 AM
Reliability is important, no argument there....
I don't think you read what I wrote so I will repeat it more simply...
Alfa/Renault/Peugeot/Fiat died in the US not because their reliability was that terrible (it wasn't, from what I understand, compared to the Americans). These brands died because for whatever reason they had incredible problems with
rust. Much of the US is coastal, which makes for salty air, which corrodes cars quickly. A large portion of the US also sees a regular amount of snow, which prompts heavy use of road salt that also eats away at cars not prepared for it. Alfa in particular did not prepare for this, and only the most diligent maintenance and precaution can keep one from disintegrating here. I don't know what the weather is like in Germany, but it's not coastal, and I'm guessing doesn't get enough snow to prompt the use of road salt like here in the US. I'm sure by now the European brands have caught up, but the damage is done.
It also didn't help that these brands didn't establish a strong dealer network to deal with the problems. GMs were shitty, but you didn't have to travel far to go to a dealership. Not so much for the French/Italians.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:35:29 AM
Again, you're making it sound as if these cars are chronically unreliable. If Alfa Romeo's or Renault's were so unreliable, please tell me why they are still in business?
America is not the only auto market in the world. These brands probably do very well in Europe, where the climate seems to be milder and there are stronger dealer networks for these brands.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:35:29 AM
Reliability is important in Europe to, but people are also willing to put up with a few cars that might not be as reliable, but offer great design, a unique driving experience etc. in return. Those Europeans who seek bulletproof reliability and value go to Toyota and Honda.
Driving experience is important to many Americans as well, as shown by the success of otherwise impractical/less reliable/more expensive cars like the Mustang, Corvette, BMW 3 series, Mini Cooper, Acura Integra, etc.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:35:29 AM
Every brand has lemons, every brand has reliable cars. That's the moral of the story. Besides, Toyota reliability, in my experience, is so overrated.
I totally agree with the fact that every brand has lemons. However your limited experiences are meaningless in the context of statistics. The ownership experiences of most Americans who bought French/Italian cars during the 70s/80s was poor enough to end the sales of said brands here. And while Toyota doesn't overwhelm its buyers with heritage and passion, ultimately their cars do what people pay for- get them from point A to point B without fuss. For most Americans, cars are a means to an end, not some super personal expression of one's soul or w/e, so people go for what Toyota offers- value and reliability. You are letting your own personal beefs get in the way of understanding the simple logic here so I'll just lay out the American automotive landscape in a nutshell:
- Most people buy boring cars because they only care about getting from point A to point B.
- America has plenty of enthusiasts who pay premiums and sacrifice reliability/practicality/value for driving enjoyment or personal expression.
- America's varying climates, shitty roads, wack fuel and generally tougher driving conditions seem to demand more from cars, making cars that are acceptably unreliable in Europe unacceptably reliable here.
- With the lower population density of many areas in the US, a strong dealer network is critical. Nobody wants to have to drive 100+ miles just to get their car serviced.
You piece all these things together with all the differences in Germany (higher population density, more urban environments, strong nationalism, prohibitively high behavioral taxes, social jealousy) and it's clear to see why there are such vast differences in the kinds of cars Germans drive vs Americans. Like someone already said, no matter where in the world people are from originally, when they come to the US they buy the same cars with the big engines as everybody else. Nobody misses the 1.0L engines and diesel powerbands imposed on Europeans by their govts. Every car that seems popular in Germany can be rationalized by the differences listed above.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 04:14:59 PM
?
In the USA or in Europe? If it's the former, then obviously that's illegal.
Gray imports are a bit easier in other countries than here. Companies like Litchfield get a lot of gray market cars for the UK. The best you can do here, I think, is a show car plate, which limits you to about 3000 miles a year, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 07:49:44 AM
- With the lower population density of many areas in the US, a strong dealer network is critical. Nobody wants to have to drive 100+ miles just to get their car serviced.
Another thing to consider is that with our lower population density and sprawled lifestyle is that if your car breaks down, there are precious few alternatives that are realistic for transportation. Take another car? Sure, if you have one. Rent? Hope your boss doesn't mind you being in to work late. Public transport? In most of the country, it's a joke. Yeah, you can get away with buses, subways, and cabs in NYC, but it would be a nightmare for me to get to work without a car. If I count it up right, I'd need a cab, two trains, and then another cab or bus. So you're looking at about $100 out of pocket
and I'm late.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 18, 2010, 03:39:05 PM
The opel insignia is not analogous to a base camry, it is a large car by euro standards, more posh, heavy and expensive than your avg. family car in Europe.
If anything it is analogous to the Chrysler 300 in the US.
LOL, Opel Insignia being a posh large expensive luxury car ... if so, the Passat I'm driving would be a Bentley-class vehicle by European standards. :facepalm:
Quote from: Raza on August 19, 2010, 07:56:02 AM
Another thing to consider is that with our lower population density and sprawled lifestyle is that if your car breaks down, there are precious few alternatives that are realistic for transportation. Take another car? Sure, if you have one. Rent? Hope your boss doesn't mind you being in to work late. Public transport? In most of the country, it's a joke. Yeah, you can get away with buses, subways, and cabs in NYC, but it would be a nightmare for me to get to work without a car. If I count it up right, I'd need a cab, two trains, and then another cab or bus. So you're looking at about $100 out of pocket and I'm late.
These are all key differences. I am not sure how urban Germany is, but I would bet the percentage of people with cars in Germany is lower than that in the US, and with good reason- more urban areas, much better public transportation systems, and of course disproportionately higher ownership costs that make buying a car more of a luxury than a necessary tool for American living.
Germany: 65 cars per 100 people, 594 people per sq mi, 34.63m of roadway per sq km (???)
US: ~83 cars per 100 people, 86.5 people per sq mi, 7m of roadway per sq km (???)
So Germany is about 4-6x more dense than the US, which would call for different demands from its cars. Very different markets, even w/o the gov't restrictions.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:45:07 AM
Let's be realistic here for a second. Nobody will use some really small compact city car here to tow a trailer etc. Cars here have to a have a maximum allowed towing rating which clearly defines how much they can tow.
Towing a big trailer is however no problem with cars like the BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4, Ford Focus/Mondeo, Citroen C5 etc.. In the summers you often see such cars towing a mobile home on the Autobahns or on country roads. It's not an issue for these cars, which can be had with economical engines - and these are mostly used for towing. Most C-Classes I see, W202, W203 and W204, that tow homes are C220 CDI's with 150-170-horsepower.
(http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/2/1280/8749441/eee-42792.jpg)
A Ford F-150 isn't needed.
In the US, the Focus IS a small city car. And it's your funeral, but to quote a reply from a thread where someone used an S2000 to tow a boat, just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should. In the US, tow ratings are a handy tool to help determine what is a safe amount of mass to tow using a certain vehicle. Most passenger car tow ratings are limited to around 1000 lbs (450 kg). If I'm not mistaken, exceeding that tow rating will most certainly void your warranty; not something I'm willing to risk on an Audi or Benz, or any German car for that matter.
QuoteMost of these smaller engines produce a respectable amount of torque and most transmissions will have a 1st and 2nd gear with lower ratios that makes acceleration smoother for the occupants and the engine. The notion that a smaller engine "has to work harder to move the same mass" in this case isn't really an argument. While this might be true for the acceleration stage, in cruising mode these engines will get much better fuel economy than their bigger counterparts.
and shorter ratios for 1st an 2nd gear will compromise urban-cycle fuel economy. Like I said, it's a tradeoff. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I was able to get a whopping 1 mpg improvement in a rental 4-cyl Camry compared to the V6 Acura TL I was driving prior to that.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 19, 2010, 09:43:43 AM
In the US, the Focus IS a small city car. And it's your funeral, but to quote a reply from a thread where someone used an S2000 to tow a boat, just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should. In the US, tow ratings are a handy tool to help determine what is a safe amount of mass to tow using a certain vehicle. Most passenger car tow ratings are limited to around 1000 lbs (450 kg). If I'm not mistaken, exceeding that tow rating will most certainly void your warranty; not something I'm willing to risk on an Audi or Benz, or any German car for that matter.
What's wrong with towing a small load with a Focus?
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 11:22:11 AM
What's wrong with towing a small load with a Focus?
I didn't mean to say that there was; unless it's greater than the car's tow rating (assuming it has one in the first place). Wimmer claimed that towing a
big trailer shouldn't be a problem with a Focus. That I'd definitely disagree with (yeah, you can get a torquey diesel engine in a Euro Focus, but is the transmission up to it?)
I think i'm probably one of the few on this board that would actually consider a 335d. I actually like it, it feels really quick and smooth. It's no longer the old clunky diesels of the past. I really dig the torque, it would certainly make driving the car being fully loaded a lot easier than a petro engine.
Quote from: TBR on August 18, 2010, 04:09:12 PM
Those cars weren't designed for USA regulations. I have a hard time believing that you can just import a car into a European country without proving that it meets European regulations.
Well, believe it. You can the UK and I presume Germany given the photos Wimmer posts on here.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 19, 2010, 02:31:49 PM
Well, believe it. You can the UK and I presume Germany given the photos Wimmer posts on here.
Yeah, US seems to be a really popular country to buy used cars from and ship elsewhere, either to Europe or Asia.. not so much the other way around. From about 6 years in the logistics industry, so far, I've only seen 2 cars being imported into the US vs 100+ exports to various countries.
So what your saying is that the opel insignia is the best selling car in Europe and most families have something of this size. I highly doubt this is average
It seems considerably nicer than the avg peasant car I saw in germany and switzerland.
.
Hardly a bottom feader:
Car design is a dark art, from the time a designer sits down and doodles something futuristic to you seeing the car in a showroom takes years. The Insignia came out in 2008 and had been 4 years in development, that makes it 2004. That?s the height of boom time, plenty of money floating around; people were buying big safe cars so they could waft along to the next business meeting. But they were buying BMW, Mercedes, Audi and any number of hot hatches. Then it all ended, and as soon as it did Opel bring out a big heavy new Vect?I mean Insignia. You see, and they won?t tell you this on the Opel Ireland site, I?m assured by a man who knows that the lightest of these Insignia?s is more than 1.5 tonnes, and in car terms that might as well be the moon. Heavy cars need bigger engines to push them around, if you put a smaller engine in it will struggle and use much more fuel.
I don?t blame Opel for trying to shake off the Vectra anvil around its neck, the last one was terrible to drive and was way too expensive. Opel and its parent GM are in trouble, the money is running out and sales are dropping in the States, and the good people of Europe go green. Opel was left with nothing really new to offer, so they now bring us the Insignia.
I looked at the car with an open mind, it has some handsome lines; the roof line looks sporty in a coupe sort of way. There?s a strong stance from the front of the car, and I like the blade door handles. This is the SE model with 18? alloys; it?s a good look, sporty but puppy dog all at the same time. Round the back there are more of the same lines and swoops on the body work. The boot is huge too 530ltrs, but the boot opening suffers with a somewhat oval shape, and the high boot line so no chest of drawers then.
The interior is nice to look at, more of the sweeping lines that follow the exterior. The dash seems to have a separate button for everything; consequently it looks like someone used a machine gun to lay out the controls. The drivers? seat is firm and in the SE model it has the world?s slowest electric adjustment. Everything seems well put together, there are signs of budget cuts though; the gear lever feels flimsy as does the handbrake.
Once the hamster had stopped running and my seat was in the right position I got into the back, and that?s where the problems started. I am over 6 feet tall, and that sloping roof line means my head was hitting the roof lining; also there just wasn?t enough leg room. The seat squab in the middle looks tiny, at best this is a 4+1 seat arrangement, but I wouldn?t like to be the child in that calculation.
For the driver all is well in the seating department, rake and reach mean I can, for the first time in an Opel, find a comfy spot easily. The 2.0ltr 160bhp engine is quiet on start up and quick to respond on drive off. At low speed the car feels well planted and safe, however get up to motorway speeds and there are some jitters. The nose becomes light when you?re cruising which in turn causes the steering to become light.
On the back roads the handling is good, the turn in is nippy but sure footed. The 160bhp engine gives plenty of power, and I didn?t see much of the traction control light. The 6 speed box is light but the ratio is far too long between 4th and 5th gear, to get power you need 3rd, that made the engine sound like a cat with it?s paw stuck under the bonnet. It?s hard to find a gear the car is happy with when you?re trying to be a bit sporty, it becomes a trade off, the screaming cat or no power.
Around town you?ll find it hard to stop changing gears, at low speeds the engine never seems happy. I had to stop and think about this car so I pulled in for a coffee, that?s when the biggest problem really started. I needed to reverse into a space, rear visibility is terrible, the small back window coupled with a huge c pillar meant I could see nothing; it became a case of ?use the force? style of parking. You need parking sensors on this car, it?s a must.
The Insignia then is a mixed bag; it seems to be more an Executive saloon, but that market is dead. It?s all about form over function, it?s looks nice both inside and out, but once the new sheen wears off and you get to use the car the foibles will appear.
Frustratingly there is a good car in there somewhere; the overall design is good, there?s just not enough thought gone into the execution. Opel hasn?t got the badge to carry off the Executive saloon (despite pushing its German heritage) and the car just won?t work for a Family, that back seat is too small in all directions. The Mondeo dominates this market for a good reason; it?s all things to all people. This is supposed to be a car to save Opel, market forces and more choice means that the Insignia might just kill the brand altogether.
(http://smokerspack.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/opel-insignia-photo_3.jpg)
(http://smokerspack.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/opel-insignia-interior.jpg)
What was pictured there is an uplevel Insignia.
Here's a base model. Note the balloon tires and hubcaps. The base motor (1.6L) only has 105HP, hardly a "nice" car and screams "I could only afford the 1.6".
(http://thumbs.autobazar.eu/391/1304065_big.jpg)
I don't understand where you get the term "peasant car" because the US has plenty of C-segment compact sedans and hatches, as well as comparable D-segment midsize sedans.
The Insignia is not "considerably nicer" (which is why the Buick Regal may end up failing) and is an ordinary D-segment car.
If you want something that's one step up, go to Volvo, Alfa Romeo or even Audi.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 19, 2010, 04:15:21 PM
So what your saying is that the opel insignia is the best selling car in Europe and most families have something of this size. I highly doubt this is average
It seems considerably nicer than the avg peasant car I saw in germany and switzerland.
.
That isn't what we said. Even so, I still fail to see your point.
# VW Golf / Golf Plus / Jetta ? 366,231? 58.3
# VW Polo ? 109,005 ? 51.5
# Opel Corsa ? 106,980 ? 58.2
# Opel Astra ? 104,750 ? 37.7
# Skoda Fabia ? 103,645 ? 82.6
# Ford Fiesta ? 102,571 ? 135.9
# VW Passat ? 84,729 ? -10.4
# Mercedes C Class ? 77,394 ? -21.1
# Audi A4 ? 75,341 ? -23.7
# BMW 3 Series ? 72,288 ? -17.2
All of the above cars (while smaller that the traditional US car, although there are a few compacts on the top 10 sales list) are very nice (well, maybe not the Skoda. Skoda is a budget/value make) and not "peasant" cars.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 06:35:29 AM
Reliability is important, no argument there, but it's not everything. People make it sound as if NOTHING ever goes wrong on a Toyota and every little thing on a different brand is considered "unreliable". Give me a break. I can already see what Consumer Reports would say on a car like my dad's 1989 Mercedes 500SL. Spark plugs fouled up at around 160,000 km = unreliable, don't buy this POS! Get a Camry! Roof mechanism needed adjusting on three separate occasions past 150,000 km = unreliable, get a Solara convertible instead! :facepalm:
These are small issues at best and have nothing to do with reliability. The spark plugs (I even made a thread about this problem here) turned out to have gotten in contact with moisture because the car was stored in an underground parking garage during the winter. And the roof mechanism needed some adjusting, a normal procedure for R129 SL's as constant use of this feature will eventually cause slight alignment problems. Things like this can happen to many cars and the people who don't want to put up with something as trivial as this can go drive some boring Solara convertible, which will definitely experience roof alignment problems at some point in their lives. Oh how unreliable!
Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on owner surveys. The editors do not just make stuff up based on one example of the car. Let me quote to you some of the consumer reviews posted on Edmunds.com for the 2000 model year E-class. Bear in mind that these are written by actual owners of the cars.
QuoteWhen I bought this car I thought I'd own it for 10 years. Problems started 6mos. into owing. Hands free phone then CD player failed, followed by fuel tank gauge, leak in air conditioning system, LCD's in instrument panel, vanity mirror several times, rear windows and too many others to list( which are identical to most other peoples complaints). Paint chips and scratches too easily. My husband has never had a single problem with his car which was half the price. Only thing worse than the car is the customer service at the dealers and MB of America!!!! Just traded it in for a Honda Accord. Happy Day for me!!!!!!
QuoteI have had trouble with my E430 since day one. The passenger power window jammed at the down postion. At 20k miles the radio went dead. Dealer repaired it and it went dead once more at 21k miles. At 30k miles the power locks always lock back when opened. Nothin else went wrong untill 39k miles when the car didnt recognize none of my keys. I gave up due to the fact that the warranty was about to end and I went and bought an Jaguar S-type which is a wonderful car that gives me no problems unlike MBs E430.
QuoteMy 2000 E-430 4-matic is a piece of garabage. It has only 7,500 mi. Every 6 months it goes in for some major repair.I've had the radidiator, fuel tank, entire instrument cluster and major AC components replaced and repeated problems with the steering column, among others. Mercedes says "that is why they have warranties". When I mention my warrranty is about up, they tell me don't worry everything is fixed. I have zero confidence in that statement. Unfortunately, I purchased the car. When I inquired about some type of accomodation on a trade in, they refused. I guess they no longer build a decent car nor care about customer satisfaction.
QuoteI bought E430 new and it was running well for about two years. Starting in 3rd years, it was having all sorts of problems. CD changer won't work, fuel gauge went out, AC is leaking, transmission is leaking, seat adjuster won't work, plus many more. This will be my last MB and probably my last German made car.
QuoteWe have 2000 E430 and have about 60,000 miles on it. So far, we had to spend over $9,000 on repairs ranging from A/C to differential leaks! It is a well designed and good looking car but the MB's quality is sub-par. Unless MB improves the quality, we won't be touching another MB for a long long time.
QuoteLike others, we bought the car thinking we'd keep it for a long time. After 6 years and many, many trips to the dealer we are saying bye to the Benz. Thankfully, the warranty covered replacement of the entire dashboard assembly, brakes, phone, hatch and various other electrical issues. Unfortunately, post-warranty I was stuck with the bill for the struts, rotors, hatch (again) and a new $100 key! Like others, it's burning oil at a rapid pace. The car drives well, is very stable and eats up highway miles. Performance in the snow is fantastic - better than our Land Rover! Cargo/people hauling space is great.
For the above, I will point out that I think this owner is a moron to complain about having to replace struts and brakes. Those are wear items that require periodic replacement. But the oil burning, the multiple hatch replacements, the dash replacement and failed phone are legitimate reliability complaints.
QuoteThis has been the worst vehicle for warranty repairs. I have had both outside mirrors replaced, one for a crack that appeared during the first Wisconsin winter and the second for a bad motor. I have had a water pump, a mass air flow sensor, an oxygen sensor, a fuel tank sensor, a window motor, a radiator bracket, both front end tie rods, the driver's seat leather cover replaced, and finally the passenger side visor (the automatic vanity mirror switch failed) replaced.
QuoteAfter being with Lexus for 7 years, I wanted to try something different. I purchased a well-serviced E430 Sport, with 48K miles. Other than the minor issues, the ABS went out at 52K (common problem). At 58K, I thought I needed of a new transmission, but it turned out that I had to replace the transmission mounts, driveshaft joint, and a transmission sensor. For the 60K mile service, the car needed engine mounts and a power steering rack on top of the routine service. The result: No warranty = $4200 out of pocket. Right now, at 70K miles, the car is in for a rear main seal and A/C compressor replacement.
I could post more, but I think that's enough. You want to know why Mercedes gets criticized by CR and similar for poor reliability? Late 90s and early 2000s Mercs had reliability problems.
Quote
Every brand has lemons, every brand has reliable cars. That's the moral of the story. Besides, Toyota reliability, in my experience, is so overrated.
Absolutely true. Not every Toyota that rolls of the line is bulletproof and not every Mercedes that rolls off the line has reliability issues. While there are many reviews on Edmunds like those I posted above complaining about issues, there are roughly as many from people who loved their cars and had no major problems. But, if you're shopping for a car and care about reliability, are you going to buy a car where you have only a 50% chance of not having major problems, or a car where there is only a 10% chance of having problems?
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 04:36:45 PM
That isn't what we said. Even so, I still fail to see your point.
# VW Golf / Golf Plus / Jetta ? 366,231? 58.3
# VW Polo ? 109,005 ? 51.5
# Opel Corsa ? 106,980 ? 58.2
# Opel Astra ? 104,750 ? 37.7
# Skoda Fabia ? 103,645 ? 82.6
# Ford Fiesta ? 102,571 ? 135.9
# VW Passat ? 84,729 ? -10.4
# Mercedes C Class ? 77,394 ? -21.1
# Audi A4 ? 75,341 ? -23.7
# BMW 3 Series ? 72,288 ? -17.2
All of the above cars (while smaller that the traditional US car, although there are a few compacts on the top 10 sales list) are very nice (well, maybe not the Skoda. Skoda is a budget/value make) and not "peasant" cars.
You realize that every car on that list is smaller than the average car on the road in the US.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 04:23:24 PM
What was pictured there is an uplevel Insignia.
Here's a base model. Note the balloon tires and hubcaps. The base motor (1.6L) only has 105HP, hardly a "nice" car and screams "I could only afford the 1.6".
(http://thumbs.autobazar.eu/391/1304065_big.jpg)
I don't understand where you get the term "peasant car" because the US has plenty of C-segment compact sedans and hatches, as well as comparable D-segment midsize sedans.
The Insignia is not "considerably nicer" (which is why the Buick Regal may end up failing) and is an ordinary D-segment car.
If you want something that's one step up, go to Volvo, Alfa Romeo or even Audi.
You didn't quote the price of a 1.6 liter model, I am fully aware that there are lesser models You quoted the price of a 2.0d, just like pictured above
Even the 1.6 is still bigger than the avg car I saw in my European travels.
Quote from: NomisR on August 19, 2010, 04:40:14 PM
You realize that every car on that list is smaller than the average car on the road in the US.
I don't understand the "peasant" car analogy and how the Insignia (while larger) is head over heels a more luxurious car. It isn't. It's simply larger.
Even so, the Corolla, Civic, CR-V (for June) are three compacts that are routinely on the top 10 list.
I mean, Minivans and Crossover SUV's aren't on the top 10 lists, but it isn't wrong to say that many families have them. In Europe, I'm pretty sure that many families are using MPV's and D-segment sedans to ferry their kids around.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 19, 2010, 04:41:06 PM
You didn't quote the price of a 1.6 liter model, I am fully aware that there are lesser models You quoted the price of a 2.0d, just like pictured above
Even the 1.6 is still bigger than the avg car I saw in my European travels.
You can get the 2.0D in a base trim. As a matter of fact, the price I used (Opel.de configuratior) gave me the specified price of the base model 2.0D with no options.
Quote from: NomisR on August 19, 2010, 04:40:14 PM
You realize that every car on that list is smaller than the average car on the road in the US.
Really, do you think Euro cars are smaller?
Here I will review for you.
Here is your quote:
Quote from: NomisR on August 19, 2010, 04:40:14 PM
For example:
Opel Insignia (2.0D) = 27K (Euros)
BMW 520d = 39L (Euros)
Not too big of a proportional difference from a
Camry = 19K USD
And a Chrysler 300 (V6)= 28K.
So you take the cheapest camry and compare it to a 300, then you take an Insignia (but not hte base model or even remotely cheapest model) and compare it with 520d and say this is an analogous and the price difference is relative.
On top of it your argument by using the camry (and the cheapest variety at that) is that it is the best selling car in the US and therefore is the avg family car. Then you pull out the insignia (not the avg euro family car because it is not the best selling nor is it the avg size) and using its price (higher than avg) to compare to the 520d.
Your analogy is not reasonable is the point.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 19, 2010, 04:52:38 PM
Really, do you think Euro cars are smaller?
Here I will review for you.
Here is your quote:So you take the cheapest camry and compare it to a 300, then you take an Insignia (but not hte base model or even remotely cheapest model) and compare it with 520d and say this is an analogous and the price difference is relative.
On top of it your argument by using the camry (and the cheapest variety at that) is that it is the best selling car in the US and therefore is the avg family car. Then you pull out the insignia (not the avg euro family car because it is not the best selling nor is it the avg size) and using its price (higher than avg) to compare to the 520d.
Your analogy is not reasonable is the point.
Then why do you use the Chrysler 300 when
- It is NOT powerful (the Base models use a 2.7L rated at 190HP)
- It doesn't sell that well, at all.
- Chrysler 300C would make the price analogy more than "a few extra dollars"
Also, Way to spin people's posts. I posted that, not Nomis.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 19, 2010, 04:52:38 PM
Really, do you think Euro cars are smaller?
Here I will review for you.
Here is your quote:So you take the cheapest camry and compare it to a 300, then you take an Insignia (but not hte base model or even remotely cheapest model) and compare it with 520d and say this is an analogous and the price difference is relative.
On top of it your argument by using the camry (and the cheapest variety at that) is that it is the best selling car in the US and therefore is the avg family car. Then you pull out the insignia (not the avg euro family car because it is not the best selling nor is it the avg size) and using its price (higher than avg) to compare to the 520d.
Your analogy is not reasonable is the point.
None of that was my argument, I was just saying, the cars 2o6 posted are all smaller than the average american Camcord, which still holds true.
I am so confused as to what you guys are talking about
Compare cost of car here to cost of same car there
Or compare two cars relative costs' in the same country (i.e. the difference in price between the 300 and Benz here & there %wise)
Beyond that... ?????
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 06:21:01 PM
I am so confused as to what you guys are talking about
Compare cost of car here to cost of same car there
Or compare two cars relative costs' in the same country (i.e. the difference in price between the 300 and Benz here & there %wise)
Beyond that... ?????
I guess the idea is that people here can afford a luxury car for a few extra dollars.
When the same is true, people in Europe can afford a luxury car for a few extra dollars.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 07:49:44 AM
I don't know what the weather is like in Germany, but it's not coastal, and I'm guessing doesn't get enough snow to prompt the use of road salt like here in the US. I'm sure by now the European brands have caught up, but the damage is done.
There are four seasons in Germany and during the winters can be very cold. Salt is strayed on the roads and many people also don't clean their cars as often as one should during the winter (to remove excess salt, mud etc.).
This type of weather and climate isn't good for a car, so German cars are obviously created with this in mind (as are French/Russian). The winter season in Italy isn't as harsh, so yes, Italian cars + winter climates have never been good for the longevity and durability of Italian cars.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 07:49:44 AMIt also didn't help that these brands didn't establish a strong dealer network to deal with the problems. GMs were shitty, but you didn't have to travel far to go to a dealership. Not so much for the French/Italians.
America is not the only auto market in the world. These brands probably do very well in Europe, where the climate seems to be milder and there are stronger dealer networks for these brands.
Driving experience is important to many Americans as well, as shown by the success of otherwise impractical/less reliable/more expensive cars like the Mustang, Corvette, BMW 3 series, Mini Cooper, Acura Integra, etc.
:ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 07:49:44 AMI totally agree with the fact that every brand has lemons. However your limited experiences are meaningless in the context of statistics. The ownership experiences of most Americans who bought French/Italian cars during the 70s/80s was poor enough to end the sales of said brands here. And while Toyota doesn't overwhelm its buyers with heritage and passion, ultimately their cars do what people pay for- get them from point A to point B without fuss. For most Americans, cars are a means to an end, not some super personal expression of one's soul or w/e, so people go for what Toyota offers- value and reliability. You are letting your own personal beefs get in the way of understanding the simple logic here so I'll just lay out the American automotive landscape in a nutshell:
- Most people buy boring cars because they only care about getting from point A to point B.
- America has plenty of enthusiasts who pay premiums and sacrifice reliability/practicality/value for driving enjoyment or personal expression.
- America's varying climates, shitty roads, wack fuel and generally tougher driving conditions seem to demand more from cars, making cars that are acceptably unreliable in Europe unacceptably reliable here.
- With the lower population density of many areas in the US, a strong dealer network is critical. Nobody wants to have to drive 100+ miles just to get their car serviced.
:ohyeah:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 07:49:44 AMYou piece all these things together with all the differences in Germany (higher population density, more urban environments, strong nationalism, prohibitively high behavioral taxes, social jealousy) and it's clear to see why there are such vast differences in the kinds of cars Germans drive vs Americans. Like someone already said, no matter where in the world people are from originally, when they come to the US they buy the same cars with the big engines as everybody else. Nobody misses the 1.0L engines and diesel powerbands imposed on Europeans by their govts. Every car that seems popular in Germany can be rationalized by the differences listed above.
The government doesn't really "impose" smaller engines on us. All engines are taxed here, small or big. The underlying difference is that people who want a car to get from A to B, who clearly aren't enthusiastic about cars, will get a small car or medium-sized car with a smaller engine. People who care a bit more about performance or want more power etc. are going to spend their money on whatever and are prepared to pay the automotive taxes that go along with it. Many people drive their "fun cars" only during the warmer seasons which means that for nearly half a year the car isn't registered - and thus you don't have to pay any taxes on it.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 19, 2010, 09:43:43 AM
In the US, the Focus IS a small city car. And it's your funeral, but to quote a reply from a thread where someone used an S2000 to tow a boat, just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should. In the US, tow ratings are a handy tool to help determine what is a safe amount of mass to tow using a certain vehicle. Most passenger car tow ratings are limited to around 1000 lbs (450 kg). If I'm not mistaken, exceeding that tow rating will most certainly void your warranty; not something I'm willing to risk on an Audi or Benz, or any German car for that matter.
You can actually specify a tow coupling for many European cars, mainstream or luxury like the 3-Series, C-Class, E-Class, S-Class, CL-Class, SL-Class, even a 1-Series or A-Class. Naturally cars like the 1-Series or A-Class can't tow as much as a 3-Series or C-Class. Fact is, people here tow their mobile homes with 3er's, A4's and C-Classes. They are limited to a speed of 80 km/h on roads and highways though as a safety measure (braking in emergencies etc.).
For such a job, nobody needs a V8 here.
Quote from: Vinsanity on August 19, 2010, 09:43:43 AMand shorter ratios for 1st an 2nd gear will compromise urban-cycle fuel economy. Like I said, it's a tradeoff. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I was able to get a whopping 1 mpg improvement in a rental 4-cyl Camry compared to the V6 Acura TL I was driving prior to that.
I'm sure the auto manufacturers have their transmission gear ratios optimized for daily driving etc. Tradeoff's are always present...
Quote from: MX793 on August 19, 2010, 04:36:57 PM
Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on owner surveys. The editors do not just make stuff up based on one example of the car. Let me quote to you some of the consumer reviews posted on Edmunds.com for the 2000 model year E-class. Bear in mind that these are written by actual owners of the cars.
For the above, I will point out that I think this owner is a moron to complain about having to replace struts and brakes. Those are wear items that require periodic replacement. But the oil burning, the multiple hatch replacements, the dash replacement and failed phone are legitimate reliability complaints.
I could post more, but I think that's enough. You want to know why Mercedes gets criticized by CR and similar for poor reliability? Late 90s and early 2000s Mercs had reliability problems.
Poor W210 E-Class. So good-looking, yet so troubled. :tounge:
The W210 was a problem child for Mercedes', especially the earlier models and especially the fully-loaded models. At the same time, close friends who own W210 E-Classes in Germany, albeit lower-spec and smaller-engined models, have had no major issues with theirs. One guy has an early (199_) W210 E200 5-speed manual. Last time I rode in it had over 500,000 km on it since he uses the car to travel to Eastern Europe for his wood business. Then again, every brand has lemons and extremely reliable cars. It fits in.
I'm sure you know I like picking on Consumer Reports because of things some owners complain about - like fading brakes, struts, broken cupholders etc. These are trivial things, as you mentioned, that will eventually need to be replaced (especially brakes and suspension struts).
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 04:36:45 PM
Skoda is a budget/value make) and not "peasant" cars.
Skoda is comparable to what Toyota is in the US. They make mainstream cars but also offer "premium cars".
What the Camry is to Americans, the Skoda Octavia is to Europeans.
What the Avalon is to Americans, the Skoda Superb is to Europeans. And
superb it is. If I were in the market for a mainstream car with excellent value, fit and finish and nice design, the Skoda Superb would be my choice hands down (closely followed by the Citroen C5). :ohyeah:
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_2009_photo_02.jpg)
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_2009_photo_2b.jpg)
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Skoda-Superb_2009_photo_46.jpg)
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 06:28:47 PM
I guess the idea is that people here can afford a luxury car for a few extra dollars.
When the same is true, people in Europe can afford a luxury car for a few extra dollars.
Cars definitely cost more in Europe, for w/e reasons. In Germany at least, part of that extra cost is due to taxes on things like engine displacement, which makes people buy cars they wouldn't if there were no displacement/exhorbitant fuel tax
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 08:50:16 PM
Cars definitely cost more in Europe, for w/e reasons. In Germany at least, part of that extra cost is due to taxes on things like engine displacement, which makes people buy cars they wouldn't if there were no displacement/exhorbitant fuel tax
Cost and direct conversions are irrelevant.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 19, 2010, 08:50:16 PM
Cars definitely cost more in Europe, for w/e reasons. In Germany at least, part of that extra cost is due to taxes on things like engine displacement, which makes people buy cars they wouldn't if there were no displacement/exhorbitant fuel tax
Cost and direct conversions are irrelevant.
The Octavia is much closer to the Corolla in size (Octavia = 179", Corolla= 178") And the Superb is nearly identical in length to the Camry.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2010, 08:31:59 PM
You can actually specify a tow coupling for many European cars, mainstream or luxury like the 3-Series, C-Class, E-Class, S-Class, CL-Class, SL-Class, even a 1-Series or A-Class. Naturally cars like the 1-Series or A-Class can't tow as much as a 3-Series or C-Class. Fact is, people here tow their mobile homes with 3er's, A4's and C-Classes. They are limited to a speed of 80 km/h on roads and highways though as a safety measure (braking in emergencies etc.).
For such a job, nobody needs a V8 here.
Ummn, you can get tow packages on pretty much any car here.
I'm sure the auto manufacturers have their transmission gear ratios optimized for daily driving etc. Tradeoff's are always present...
Octavia and Corolla are the same size, as are the Superb and Camry. Besides, isn't the Superb cheaper than the Passat?
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 09:26:41 PM
Cost and direct conversions are irrelevant.
The Octavia is much closer to the Corolla in size (Octavia = 179", Corolla= 178") And the Superb is nearly identical in length to the Camry.
Octavia and Corolla are the same size, as are the Superb and Camry. Besides, isn't the Superb cheaper than the Passat?
You trouble me, you know and care way too much about crappy cars that nobody else in this side of the world seems to care about.
Quote from: NomisR on August 19, 2010, 10:20:37 PM
You trouble me, you know and care way too much about crappy cars that nobody else in this side of the world seems to care about.
Huh? It took me two seconds to look that up, not only that but I was pretty sure that the Octavia and Jetta are mechanically similar (and thus of similar size)
What, I should just close my eyes and talk about Zondas all the time?
Quote from: NomisR on August 19, 2010, 10:20:37 PM
You trouble me, you know and care way too much about crappy cars that nobody else in this side of the world seems to care about.
That's ironic, considering the amount of enthusiasm for total mediocre crap expressed by you and your co-nationals on the "Spotted Today" thread.
I mean: Hey a Mazda - WOW .... hey a Lamborghini - total quiteness :facepalm:
Quote from: AltinD on August 20, 2010, 06:20:17 AM
That's ironic, considering the amount of enthusiasm for total mediocre crap expressed by you and your co-nationals on the "Spotted Today" thread.
I mean: Hey a Mazda - WOW .... hey a Lamborghini - total quiteness :facepalm:
Yea but those are good cars in America. And often times the cars posted will be something relatively rare or forgotten. To me something like an RX-7 or VW Corrado is more exciting than a Gallardo.... many of us see supercars pretty regularly :huh:
And what makes you the authority on how people are supposed to react to certain cars anyway? Yea Nomis was wrong to call 2o6 out but ultimately 2o6s car tastes are, to put it mildly, unusual. Within the context of this thread, his personal bias seems to make him throw weight to cars Americans would have no interest in. Nobody wants an Insignia 1.6, no matter how much Euro cred they have
Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2010, 10:23:40 PM
Huh? It took me two seconds to look that up, not only that but I was pretty sure that the Octavia and Jetta are mechanically similar (and thus of similar size)
What, I should just close my eyes and talk about Zondas all the time?
The thing is, to most people, they would be like.. Octaviwhat? I say most of that in jest though, but you still seem significantly more intrested in plebian cars than when I was your age.
Quote from: AltinD on August 20, 2010, 06:20:17 AM
That's ironic, considering the amount of enthusiasm for total mediocre crap expressed by you and your co-nationals on the "Spotted Today" thread.
I mean: Hey a Mazda - WOW .... hey a Lamborghini - total quiteness :facepalm:
You must have me mistaken for someone else because I rarely if ever post in that thread. But in the same line, I probably see more Gallardos or F430s on a weekly basis than I do a FD Rx7. Then again, I don't go gaga over them, even though it was something I've wanted from back in HS days.
These days, the only thing on the road that would really draw enough of my interest to want to snap a picture of it would be something like a Pagani Zonda, which I have only seen 1 so far, a McLaren F1, and Bugatti Veyron. Other than that.. meh.. Of course, there's some rare cars that I hardly ever see that will still draw my interest..
To me, a Lamborghini is not rare, and since you live in Dubai, you can surely understand that sentiment.
I sent this to my 68 year old father;
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/2011-bmw-520d-four-cylinder-engine-and-576mpg/
His reply today;
"I WANT ONE! Tony find out when they're scheduled for release and ask your dealer about loyalty deductions."
Quote from: hounddog on October 31, 2010, 09:44:41 PM
I sent this to my 68 year old father;
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/2011-bmw-520d-four-cylinder-engine-and-576mpg/
His reply today;
"I WANT ONE! Tony find out when they're scheduled for release and ask your dealer about loyalty deductions."
I don't know your father, but I think he represents a large majority of buyers out there that aren't into performance or feel that THIS performance is completely adequate to their daily needs. They also want great fuel economy, which this car naturally offers.
I rode in Colin's rental BMW F10 530d and was impressed, impressed and more impressed. First off, the engine was so smooth. No vibrations, no diesel clatter (even on the outside). Almost halfway into the drive did I notice the car was a diesel because of the RPM odometer. Second, it's relatively spacious inside (our W212 E-Class feels roomier though) and the seats were really comfortable and well-shaped (and these were the standard seats). In my experience, the standard BMW seats are plain awful and uncomfortable, but these were great.
Overall, a very nice car. The 530d motor was a dream. Although I didn't drive the car, as a passenger I felt how impressive this engine was. You don't need a 535d. A 530d is all you need - or a 520d. Let
BMW and Driver rave about the 535d...
Here's a quick photo I took. I still have to work on the other ones. :ohyeah:
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3510/dsc0003s.jpg)
And Wimmer, I think you just hit the nail on the head with regards to what MOST Americans want in a car. Sure, it's nice to have a more performance oriented variant, but a majority just want something that gets good mileage with enough power to get out of its own way. For most, a 4-cylinder Camry, Accord, or Sonata will suffice. For those who want something more luxurious, however, there are very very few options. We don't get a 5-series diesel. We don't get a C-Class diesel or an S-Class diesel. The diesel E-Class that the US does get seems to sell fairly well. Mercedes has a reputation for a quality, fuel efficient diesel engine. The new E350 BlueTEC gets 24 MPG in the city and 34 MPG on the highway. Give us a smaller diesel with less power and see how it sells is what I say.
I think the base model should be a 4-cylinder diesel, or at least a no cost option for the 5 series.
I think a diesel C and S class is in the works here though.
My dad would prob buy a diesel luxury car, if he was sure it would be reliable
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 01, 2010, 02:50:41 PM
I don't know your father, but I think he represents a large majority of buyers out there that aren't into performance or feel that THIS performance is completely adequate to their daily needs. They also want great fuel economy, which this car naturally offers.
I rode in Colin's rental BMW F10 530d and was impressed, impressed and more impressed. First off, the engine was so smooth. No vibrations, no diesel clatter (even on the outside). Almost halfway into the drive did I notice the car was a diesel because of the RPM odometer. Second, it's relatively spacious inside (our W212 E-Class feels roomier though) and the seats were really comfortable and well-shaped (and these were the standard seats). In my experience, the standard BMW seats are plain awful and uncomfortable, but these were great.
Overall, a very nice car. The 530d motor was a dream. Although I didn't drive the car, as a passenger I felt how impressive this engine was. You don't need a 535d. A 530d is all you need - or a 520d. Let BMW and Driver rave about the 535d...
Here's a quick photo I took. I still have to work on the other ones. :ohyeah:
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3510/dsc0003s.jpg)
He is a person who believes we do not need gimmick hybrids to get decent mileage.
His diesel purchases over the years;
79 Olds Cutlass 4 speed diesel
82 Olds 98 Brougham diesel
84 Olds 98 Brougham diesel
98 Ram 2500 diesel
10 Ram 2500 diesel
Until the auto buyout he would never have considered purchasing a foreign car, but now, he wants to thumb his nose at the hybrid theology and have vehicle that not only is a nicer vehicle, but is more environmentally friendly with considerably superior fuel economy.
Drove to the BMW dealership in Traverse City this afternoon.
I spoke with the manager who told me BMW has no intention at this time to bring any 5 series to the US, the X5 and 3 diesels are market tests, and they are not doing well.
He also mentioned that BMW is not impressed with the US quality of diesel, nor are they convinced regarding the availability to diesel users here.
He said BMW will not even release any info to them regarding the 5 diesels.
I am very disappointed. My dad will be as well.
The X5 and 3-series diesels have failed because they cost so much. The base 335d is over $40,000 I believe.
No, I think that is probably not the case. At least not looking at pure numbers.
The 335d is only $1,050 more than a similarly equipped 335i xDrive, and only 3k more than a 335i. All are over $40k.
The X5 xDrive 35d is only more expensive than the base model X5 xDrive35i, and is less expensive than the other three models.
Grey market import?
Quote from: mzziaz on November 03, 2010, 03:18:25 AM
Grey market import?
...is almost impossible in the US. They may be a less regulated country, but when it comes to auto imports they most definitely are not.
Not really.
Purchasing in Canada and importing is mostly barracaded by automaker imposed non-service on warranties.
Otherwise, people would still be buying over there and coming here.
That, and the Canadian dollar strength right now stops it as well.
Quote from: hounddog on November 02, 2010, 06:21:34 PM
Drove to the BMW dealership in Traverse City this afternoon.
I spoke with the manager who told me BMW has no intention at this time to bring any 5 series to the US, the X5 and 3 diesels are market tests, and they are not doing well.
He also mentioned that BMW is not impressed with the US quality of diesel, nor are they convinced regarding the availability to diesel users here.
He said BMW will not even release any info to them regarding the 5 diesels.
I am very disappointed. My dad will be as well.
They haven't really marketed it that much though. Considering the fact that diesel and premium in CA costs pretty much the same, I'm surprised that it's not selling better since you're getting almost double the mileage for 335i vs 335d. It's a little slower but at 5 secs, it's not really that notifible anymore.
But I don't know how marketing would go with this.. they can't really go the green angle because people already thinks, "dirty" when they look at diesel.
Quote from: NomisR on November 03, 2010, 12:32:23 PM
They haven't really marketed it that much though. Considering the fact that diesel and premium in CA costs pretty much the same, I'm surprised that it's not selling better since you're getting almost double the mileage for 335i vs 335d. It's a little slower but at 5 secs, it's not really that notifible anymore.
But I don't know how marketing would go with this.. they can't really go the green angle because people already thinks, "dirty" when they look at diesel.
I don't understand the lack of any marketing push on the diesels. Audi announced that they'll have diesel options in all their cars (save the R8 and maybe one other) by 2015 or so, and I am sure with an initiative like that, they'll provide some serious marketing dollars for pushing the diesels. The benefits are there in facts, they just need to inform the public of the advantages. That's also going to really help get their corporate average MPG's in line with what the government wants. <-- something I believe that will push quite a few manufacturers to go the diesel route.
According to this website:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/10/22/u-s-diesel-numbers-q3-sales-accelerate-to-38/
diesels are selling pretty well :huh:
You know what would be an awesome flagship for the diesel movement? The Audi R8. For crying out loud, the car has pretty much already been developed, and it'd be an excellent tie-in for the company's LeMans efforts.
Does no one else see it?
Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2010, 07:26:08 PM
You know what would be an awesome flagship for the diesel movement? The Audi R8. For crying out loud, the car has pretty much already been developed, and it'd be an excellent tie-in for the company's LeMans efforts.
Does no one else see it?
They'd have to call it the R10.
I think it's freaking ridiculous how risk averse the German manufacturers are with engines, yet they are more than happy to fuck around with "segment busting" niche market wankery that's obviously destined for meager sales. The engines are already developed and hundreds of thousands of cars are already running happily with those engines in Europe. I don't understand, what's the risk?
I don't get it either.
"No, we must keep selling our 35i engine in EVERYTHING, as we watch fuel pumps around the world explode and kill what little quality reputation we have!!! Back to the glory days!"
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on November 03, 2010, 01:12:44 PM
According to this website:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/10/22/u-s-diesel-numbers-q3-sales-accelerate-to-38/
diesels are selling pretty well :huh:
That link keeps saying in Q3, people were buying the diesel version over the petrol version 73% of the time. Looking at the numbers, that's not true at all. :confused:
Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2010, 07:26:08 PM
You know what would be an awesome flagship for the diesel movement? The Audi R8. For crying out loud, the car has pretty much already been developed, and it'd be an excellent tie-in for the company's LeMans efforts.
Does no one else see it?
Have you ever driven a diesel? The throttle response, both owing to turbo lag and lack of a throttle plate (i.e., no vacuum on the intake) is terrible. Not good for an exotic.
There is simply no material justification for buying a diesel passenger car in the US; too expensive and too under performing for the $$$. A diesel R8 won't change that.
Quote from: Laconian on November 03, 2010, 07:40:24 PM
They'd have to call it the R10.
I think it's freaking ridiculous how risk averse the German manufacturers are with engines, yet they are more than happy to fuck around with "segment busting" niche market wankery that's obviously destined for meager sales. The engines are already developed and hundreds of thousands of cars are already running happily with those engines in Europe. I don't understand, what's the risk?
Isn't diesel fuel not available at all gas stations?
And the number one reason why the Europeans don't offer their other diesels in the US is:
THEY DON'T DO 0-60 IN UNDER 5 SECONDS!!! :devil:
I can already picture the article from
Car and Driver in front of me:
2010 BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics vs 1979 Plymouth Volare The Volare wins our comparison test hands down. Although the BMW is better at everything, it's 0-60 time of 8 seconds is unacceptable in this day and age.
:facepalm:
Quote from: GoCougs on November 04, 2010, 08:36:43 AM
Have you ever driven a diesel? The throttle response, both owing to turbo lag and lack of a throttle plate (i.e., no vacuum on the intake) is terrible. Not good for an exotic.
There is simply no material justification for buying a diesel passenger car in the US; too expensive and too under performing for the $$$. A diesel R8 won't change that.
Have you ever driven a diesel? I have, and for people who don't need to assert their dominance in stoplight street races, they work great.
Diesel fuel is available mostly everywhere these days.
Anyways, reduced throttle response and NVH wouldn't be an impediment to the texting, left-lane-camping, oblivious breed of BMW/Audi/luxury car drivers that we have around these parts.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 04, 2010, 08:36:43 AM
Have you ever driven a diesel? The throttle response, both owing to turbo lag and lack of a throttle plate (i.e., no vacuum on the intake) is terrible. Not good for an exotic.
There is simply no material justification for buying a diesel passenger car in the US; too expensive and too under performing for the $$$. A diesel R8 won't change that.
Oh, really? The modern diesels I've driven have awesome throttle response, partially owing to their awesome torque. The differences in NVH are generally tiny, IMO.
How many diesels have you driven?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 04, 2010, 08:36:43 AM
Have you ever driven a diesel? The throttle response, both owing to turbo lag and lack of a throttle plate (i.e., no vacuum on the intake) is terrible. Not good for an exotic.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Neckarsulm-AudiForum-Audi-R10-TDI.jpg)
My 300SD has no lag at all :lol:
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 06:35:15 PM
My 300SD has no lag at all :lol:
Thank the Garret exhaust-turbocharger for that. Made in the US of A. :praise:
So was the A/C compressor, it's actually built by GM.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 07:02:43 PM
So was the A/C compressor, it's actually built by GM.
Is it an original model or aftermarket?
I'm assuming the 300SD got an American-made A/C component because it wasn't sold in Europe. All other W116s that were sold elsewhere (aka no diesels) probably had some MB/German-made A/C component.
Nope it's factory. Even looked it up and it listed it as having a Delco compressor.
Quote from: Galaxy on November 03, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
...is almost impossible in the US. They may be a less regulated country, but when it comes to auto imports they most definitely are not.
Sometimes there are loopholes.
I saw once a legally registered Mexican Peugeot 206, registered in Texas. Car was illegally imported into the US, and then seized in a drug bust. It was titled and sold at auction.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 07:27:03 PM
Nope it's factory. Even looked it up and it listed it as having a Delco compressor.
These guys?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delco_Electronics
Yep that is them. Dated a girl who's dad used to work for them and then continued to after Delphi took over. Currently no longer working for them since the plant got shut down.
Interesting. And people say globalization really only happened in the last 20 years. :lol:
I've seen a few some Bosch parts on my Mustang too :lol:
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 07:57:17 PM
I've seen a few some Bosch parts on my Mustang too :lol:
What year is your 'Stang?
What do you think of these? :lol:
(http://www.shnack.com/history/pics/1974FordMustang_large.jpg)
Mine is a 2002 and the Mustang II was garbage. Anyways back on diesels, I hear Audi will offer more here which is good.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 08:00:53 PM
Mine is a 2002 and the Mustang II was garbage. Anyways back on diesels, I hear Audi will offer more here which is good.
I saw a 2002 shape Mustang a few days ago. I think I even posted the photo in my American car sightings thread. Might have even been some sort of Cobra model because of the snake emblem on the side.
Last garbage question! Which of these would you take:
-Ford Pinto
-Mercury Bobcat
-Ford Mustang II
:lol:
I hope Audi brings over more diesels. And VW to. The US really could use a VW Multivan TDI. :rockon:
From your choices I take walking and doubt we get any real VW vans anytime soon with the Chrysler built Crouton
(http://integrityautoandmobility.com/attachments/Image/Car_pics/Car_pics_2/used_VW_routon_1.jpg)
The ads here even talk about how German it is :facepalm:
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 07:57:17 PM
I've seen a few some Bosch parts on my Mustang too :lol:
I don't think there is a car on the world which does not have some Bosch parts. Even the Tata Nano uses Bosch.
Quote from: hounddog on November 03, 2010, 10:23:21 AM
Not really.
Purchasing in Canada and importing is mostly barracaded by automaker imposed non-service on warranties.
Otherwise, people would still be buying over there and coming here.
That, and the Canadian dollar strength right now stops it as well.
I was talking about something totally alien for the US, like grabbing a Renault from a european dealer and bringing it the the US.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 08:23:22 PM
From your choices I take walking and doubt we get any real VW vans anytime soon with the Chrysler built Crouton
(http://integrityautoandmobility.com/attachments/Image/Car_pics/Car_pics_2/used_VW_routon_1.jpg)
The ads here even talk about how German it is :facepalm:
That should be considered as false advertisment
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 07, 2010, 08:23:22 PM
From your choices I take walking and doubt we get any real VW vans anytime soon with the Chrysler built Crouton
(http://integrityautoandmobility.com/attachments/Image/Car_pics/Car_pics_2/used_VW_routon_1.jpg)
The ads here even talk about how German it is :facepalm:
The only German thing on it is its unreliability!!! Overpriced, unreliable German POS!!! :rage:
:thumbsup:
Actually I think this thing is pretty expensive, I think it cost the same as a Town and Country.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 09, 2010, 11:09:58 AM
Actually I think this thing is pretty expensive, I think it cost the same as a Town and Country.
That probably explains why sales are so low.
Some Germans even thought about importing them from the US but then they found out the only engine option is a gas-guzzling V6...
Chrysler sells vans in Europe don't they? I was thinking they offered a diesel for that market.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 09, 2010, 12:24:11 PM
Chrysler sells vans in Europe don't they? I was thinking they offered a diesel for that market.
They still do. They're even pretty popular. But the Volkswagen Routan isn't offered with a diesel so it won't sell here at all. Nobody wants an overpowered gas-guzzling V6 in their minivan in Europe. The market for such cars is so small. Mercedes offers the Viano with a 3.5-l V6 and they're selling so poorly.
I drove a 2002 Chrysler Voyager 2.5 CRD. I have no idea where the engine came from but it was Italian-designed and made. That's all I know about it. Loud and rough, but the acceleration and midrange power was pretty decent.
Here are some photos of it. Ah, the old Fujifilm 4700 FinePix camera...on a nice day like this it ups the ISO. FAIL. :facepalm: :praise:
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2264/chryslervoyager01.jpg)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1184/chryslervoyager02.jpg)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9201/chryslervoyager04.jpg)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/589/chryslervoyager06.jpg)
(http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/7803/chryslervoyager07.jpg)
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2937/chryslervoyager08.jpg)
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/7564/chryslervoyager09.jpg)
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4202/chryslervoyager10.jpg)
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/240/chryslervoyager11.jpg)
I freaking love the fact that you can get one of those with a MT gearshift. It's probably nothing special, but it seems like it'd be an odd experience.
Weird to see any minivan with a manual.
The manual was pretty rubbery, vague and basically crap. But the car was pretty agile in the straights where the diesel torque and the fact that you row your own gears made it pretty...what's the word...sporty! :confused:
Of course when the first corners came this thing felt like it was going to tip over. The suspension was so soft and plushy that I actually had to slow down before every corner because you could just feel the center of gravity on this thing was going to cause problems. :ohyeah:
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 09, 2010, 08:07:48 PM
Weird to see any minivan with a manual.
The manual is because of the diesel engine.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 09, 2010, 03:05:42 PM
Nobody wants an overpowered gas-guzzling V6 in their minivan in Europe.
LOL Chriss, a "gas-guzzling V6" a V6 and in a 2 ton minivan of all vehicles. Come on man, a I4 will guzzle even more gas on that vehicle. What makes sense is a diesel engine and that's why the V6 models doesn't sell ... so they don't sell because they're petrol, no because they have 6 and not 4 cyclinders.
To put things in prospective: My '08 250HP 3.2L V6 Passat 4Motion, has a slightly better fuel economy then my previous '02 115HP 2.0 I4 Passat FWD.
Quote from: AltinD on November 11, 2010, 06:00:57 AM
LOL Chriss, a "gas-guzzling V6" a V6 and in a 2 ton minivan of all vehicles. Come on man, a I4 will guzzle even more gas on that vehicle. What makes sense is a diesel engine and that's why the V6 models doesn't sell ... so they don't sell because they're petrol, no because they have 6 and not 4 cyclinders.
Best-selling Viano and Multivan/Transporters in Europe are 4-cylinder diesels. You know that you can buy "luxury" versions of the Viano and Multivan/Transporter and most of them are still bought with the 4-cylinder diesel engines. :ohyeah:
Is the current VW Multivan/Transporter even offered with a V6? I know the Viano comes with a 3.5 V6 but they're so rare.
Quote from: AltinD on November 11, 2010, 05:57:31 AM
The manual is because of the diesel engine.
Yeah but you can get a diesel Jetta with an automatic.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 11, 2010, 06:05:41 AM
Best-selling Viano and Multivan/Transporters in Europe are 4-cylinder diesels. You know that you can buy "luxury" versions of the Viano and Multivan/Transporter and most of them are still bought with the 4-cylinder diesel engines. :ohyeah:
Is the current VW Multivan/Transporter even offered with a V6? I know the Viano comes with a 3.5 V6 but they're so rare.
DIESEL is the key word Chriss. There is no petrol 4 cylinder offered on those vehicles ... and yes, the VW Multivan/Transporter is available in V6. Luxo people transporters use the V6 petrol but cargo ones only use the diesel engine.
Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on November 11, 2010, 06:39:10 AM
Yeah but you can get a diesel Jetta with an automatic.
That Minivan is old and older A/T weren't well paired with the diesel engines. Now with the availibility of 6sp A/T is possible to match them ... although VW uses ONLY DSG with their diesels. However what they offer in NA doesn't mean anything cause for them is just a market to send their stripper models.