Refreshed 2013 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Gets New Look, More Tech
(http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/2012/03/2011-Mercedes-Benz-E350-Bluetec-Front-Three-Quarter1-623x389.jpg)
The Mercedes-Benz E-Class is due for a face-lift next year, and our colleagues at Automobile got an advance look at what the silver arrow brand has in store for its refreshed midsizer. With a significantly revised exterior design, enhanced tech features, and updated engines planned for the U.S. and abroad, the 2013 E-Class should tide Mercedes customers over until the next-gen model arrives in 2015.
The refresh will reportedly ditch the current model?s quad headlamps in favor of single-piece units, and also completely overhaul the E-Class? rear end. Automobile says the only exterior elements expected to carry over to the 2013 model are the roof, front doors, and windows. The new look is intended to be more elegant and flowing compared to the current model.
Tech features like night vision assistant will be updated to detect not only pedestrians and cyclists, but also oncoming traffic. The dynamic light assistant, which currently relies on adaptive HID technology, will switch to advanced, fast-moving LED pixels capable of automatically redirecting the beam away from oncoming traffic. Another feature intended to better protect against head-on collisions is the revised Intelligent Lane Assistant system, which monitors the car?s own lane as well as oncoming traffic and sounds an early collision warning if a crash is imminent. A car-to-car communication system will be able to recognize emergency vehicles, and warn other cars about hazards such as black ice or hydroplaning conditions. The new system will also allow for partially autonomous driving, requiring only minimal steering, braking, and throttle inputs. The head-up display will be widened, and will feature updated graphics and multi-color imagery.
Also in the cards for the E-Class refresh are revised powertrains. The twin-turbo 5.5-liter V-8 will continue service in the E63 AMG, though the E550?s 408-hp twin-turbo 4.6-liter V-8 will be replaced by a single-turbo 4.6-liter unit producing 435 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque. The 3.5-liter V-6 in the E350 will increase power from 302 to 333 hp, which should advance that car to the head of the pack, with the BMW 535i packing 300 hp and Audi A6 3.0T producing 310 hp. Finally, in an effort to keep up with the joneses, Mercedes might decide to swap out the planned V-6 for a new turbocharged four-cylinder ala BMW 528i.
As mid-cycle refreshes go, the E-Class? sounds pretty comprehensive. With the all-new E-Class arriving in 2015, and other models like the new C-Class and S-Class coupe arriving soon, consider this refresh a preview of things to come from the German automaker.
Current model shown above.
Head to Automobile to read the full story and see their gallery of renderings.
Source: Automobile
Link: http://wot.motortrend.com/refreshed-2013-mercedes-benz-e-class-gets-new-look-more-tech-180279.html
Looks the same..twin foglamps still look stupid.
Quote from: Raza on March 16, 2012, 07:46:37 AM
Looks the same..twin foglamps still look stupid.
Current model shown above.
It looks exactly the same. Not a bad thing, though.
Quote from: CJ on March 16, 2012, 07:53:22 AM
It looks exactly the same. Not a bad thing, though.
Again, they're using existing photos of the 2012 model. ;)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 07:57:45 AM
Again, they're using existing photos of the 2012 model. ;)
I posted that before I saw Raza's post.
Its pretty crazy that the regular V8 E-class is putting out almost as much power as the old supercharged 5.4 AMGs. Sweet.
And I'm glad that MB is keeping the V6 NA, it just makes it unique. Although, I doubt that will last much longer.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 16, 2012, 09:01:06 AM
Its pretty crazy that the regular V8 E-class is putting out almost as much power as the old supercharged 5.4 AMGs. Sweet.
And I'm glad that MB is keeping the V6 NA, it just makes it unique. Although, I doubt that will last much longer.
I think in the future the American E-Class lineup will be something like this:
DieselE250 CDI
E350 CDI / E350 CDI 4Matic
GasolineE250 CGI
E350 / E350 4Matic / E350 CGI
E550 / E550 4Matic
E63 AMG
A smaller entry-level diesel and gasoline 4-cylinder engine should be offered IMO for those seeking luxury and efficiency.
By the way, saw an
S450 CDI yesterday. Ultra rare V8 Diesel S-Class. :mask:
I don?t see a 250CGI making it in America. That engine just doesn?t hold a candle to the VWAG 2.0 and gets completely smoked by the BMW 2.0. Making matters worse, the 250 CDI also embarrasses it. Unless they rework that engine and make it more competitive with the standard German staple, I don?t see a place for it in the E-class.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 16, 2012, 03:21:54 PM
I don?t see a 250CGI making it in America. That engine just doesn?t hold a candle to the VWAG 2.0 and gets completely smoked by the BMW 2.0. Making matters worse, the 250 CDI also embarrasses it. Unless they rework that engine and make it more competitive with the standard German staple, I don?t see a place for it in the E-class.
I don't think anyone will buy an E250 CGI to drive competitively against a 528i. I see the people going for that model wanting an efficient E-Class and they don't want or can't get the diesel versions. The E250 CGI isn't about raw performance in the first place and I find its performance here in Europe completely sufficient.
Looks the same as the old model......j/k
I've always like the E Class.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 03:30:07 PM
I don't think anyone will buy an E250 CGI to drive competitively against a 528i. I see the people going for that model wanting an efficient E-Class and they don't want or can't get the diesel versions. The E250 CGI isn't about raw performance in the first place and I find its performance here in Europe completely sufficient.
You really overestimate the number of buyers who look for fuel efficiency in $50k cars. Yeah, a petrol E250 would be cheaper than that, but people who want a cheaper E-class would be perfectly happy buying a C-class.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
By the way, saw an S450 CDI yesterday. Ultra rare V8 Diesel S-Class. :mask:
Nice :ohyeah:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 03:30:07 PM
I don't think anyone will buy an E250 CGI to drive competitively against a 528i. I see the people going for that model wanting an efficient E-Class and they don't want or can't get the diesel versions. The E250 CGI isn't about raw performance in the first place and I find its performance here in Europe completely sufficient.
People don?t buy the 528 for raw performance either. They don?t buy it as that cars upgraded option. They buy 528?s because they want an efficient 5 Series. The 528 and the E250CGI occupy the same space in each company?s lineup as that soft, efficient, entry level offering. However, the 528?s engines greatly towers over the E250?s.
We don?t have the E250 here, but going by C250 vs. 328 comparisons/numbers that I see, it is just not competitive with BMW?s offering. Step that engine up into a heavier package and it?ll be even more of a problem. And even worse, BMW?s have been getting softer and more Mercedes like recently so it?s not that hard to get the Mercedes feel somewhere else.
The engine may be adequate, but it isn?t competitive.
A lot of people buy the 528 because they can't afford a 535 or 550.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 16, 2012, 03:39:51 PM
You really overestimate the number of buyers who look for fuel efficiency in $50k cars. Yeah, a petrol E250 would be cheaper than that, but people who want a cheaper E-class would be perfectly happy buying a C-class.
Likewise, I could argue that someone will go for an E-Class over a C-Class because they want more interior space, better comfort and they feel that an E250 CGI will be just fine for their needs.
If there are CHOICES people will generally buy what suits their needs, whether it is to impress the neighbors with the badge/car or to drive a fuel-efficient luxury car.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 16, 2012, 03:42:58 PM
People don?t buy the 528 for raw performance either. They don?t buy it as that cars upgraded option. They buy 528?s because they want an efficient 5 Series. The 528 and the E250CGI occupy the same space in each company?s lineup as that soft, efficient, entry level offering. However, the 528?s engines greatly towers over the E250?s.
We don?t have the E250 here, but going by C250 vs. 328 comparisons/numbers that I see, it is just not competitive with BMW?s offering. Step that engine up into a heavier package and it?ll be even more of a problem. And even worse, BMW?s have been getting softer and more Mercedes like recently so it?s not that hard to get the Mercedes feel somewhere else.
The engine may be adequate, but it isn?t competitive.
I have a hard time believing that the average shopper will buy a BMW 528i over an E250 CGI based on raw performance. I think the average shopper will view the performance of an E250 CGI as sufficient and the performance of a 528i as impressive. There's more to a car than performance and that's what it will come down to for the average buyer. Things like design, comfort qualities, features or even brand allegiance are deciding factors when people buy cars.
Enthusiasts might go for the faster car, but I don't see the average Joe looking at it from that point of view.
Personally I am one of those people. I look for gas mileage over 0-100 km/h. If the car does 0-100 km/h in under 10 seconds, I'm happy. And if it gives me great gas mileage then I am even happier.
Anyway, MB isn't resting on their laurels. There will be more powerful versions of this engine in the lineup, count on it. But unlike BMW, MB doesn't market the E-Class as a "sports sedan". From driving my dads E350 CGI, I can tell that the E-Class is sporty with capable and compliant handling and if you know the car well you can even push it a little harder, but it's still comfort-biased and designed for cruising, not tearing up a track or backroads.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 16, 2012, 03:46:37 PM
A lot of people buy the 528 because they can't afford a 535 or 550.
IMO if that's the case they shouldn't even be buying a 528i.
Are these the same people that make $ 70,000 a year, buy a BMW 528i for $ 69,999 and then can't fill up the tank? :devil:
^Hopefully you get my analogy (living above their means)...^
I know my mom went for the 4 cylinder Mazda6 because she didn't want to spend more on the V6. By "can't afford", I also meant "don't want to spend more" because they are financially responsible. Not everyone automatically goes for the most expensive model, believe it or not.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 03:53:13 PM
IMO if that's the case they shouldn't even be buying a 528i.
Are these the same people that make $ 70,000 a year, buy a BMW 528i for $ 69,999 and then can't fill up the tank? :devil:
^Hopefully you get my analogy (living above their means)...^
Usually people like that lease their cars. ;)
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 16, 2012, 03:58:12 PM
I know my mom went for the 4 cylinder Mazda6 because she didn't want to spend more on the V6. By "can't afford", I also meant "don't want to spend more" because they are financially responsible. Not everyone automatically goes for the most expensive model, believe it or not.
I agree. Personally, I'd be more likely to buy a 3er if they offered a turbo 4cyl model. There's a difference between not being able to afford something and simply not wanting to spend a certain amount of money on something.
Most people who have a good amount of money saved up didn't get to that point by always choosing the most expensive option.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 16, 2012, 03:51:46 PM
Likewise, I could argue that someone will go for an E-Class over a C-Class because they want more interior space, better comfort and they feel that an E250 CGI will be just fine for their needs.
If there are CHOICES people will generally buy what suits their needs, whether it is to impress the neighbors with the badge/car or to drive a fuel-efficient luxury car.
But if very few buyers will opt for an E250, then there's no point in paying the extra costs to offer the model here. European carmakers can't sell in N.America for the same prices as in Europe because of stiffer competition, so their profitability here relies heavily on streamlining their product line.
If anything, M-B is better off offering a GLK250 for people who want a bigger C-class, because more people look to SUV's for more space than a bigger sedan.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 16, 2012, 03:58:12 PM
I know my mom went for the 4 cylinder Mazda6 because she didn't want to spend more on the V6. By "can't afford", I also meant "don't want to spend more" because they are financially responsible. Not everyone automatically goes for the most expensive model, believe it or not.
Exactly.
People seem to think that just because some folks are capable of purchasing an expensive luxury car they'll automatically go for the most expensive model (and don't care about gas prices). The truth couldn't be more different.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 16, 2012, 04:16:06 PM
But if very few buyers will opt for an E250, then there's no point in paying the extra costs to offer the model here. European carmakers can't sell in N.America for the same prices as in Europe because of stiffer competition, so their profitability here relies heavily on streamlining their product line.
I don't see that many costs associated with an E250 CGI in the US. After all, MB managed to federalize the E350 Bluetec and sold all of them (and apparently demand outstripped supply in the US!). I just feel the US could use an entry level E-Class that offers good performance and sensible running costs.
Again, I might be wrong, but I see a market, even a small one, for the E250 CGI in the US. Not everyone opting for a BMW 528i cares about performance. They'll buy the 528i because it is the cheapest and most sensible 5er around in your market. They won't care if some teenager in a Camry V6 wants to race them at the light...
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 16, 2012, 04:16:06 PMIf anything, M-B is better off offering a GLK250 for people who want a bigger C-class, because more people look to SUV's for more space than a bigger sedan.
From what I hear you guys will be getting the GLK220 CDI soon.
My E250 sold like hotcakes back in the day.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 17, 2012, 12:42:15 PM
Exactly.
People seem to think that just because some folks are capable of purchasing an expensive luxury car they'll automatically go for the most expensive model (and don't care about gas prices). The truth couldn't be more different.
What it boils down to, is that the vast majority rich people who want a fuel efficient car don't buy diesel Mercedes (anymore). They buy fully-loaded Priuses, Camry hybrids, and RX hybrids. Beyond that, expensive fuel sippers just don't sell well. I rarely see any newer diesel Mercedes, hybrid GS/LS models, and hybrid Escalades. I've seen exactly one hybrid S-class.
Yea, I think a E250 would be relegated to a market that is just too small to justify for MBUSA. This country has moved beyond the point where they would find that level of performance acceptable in a 50K luxury car, even if it is acceptable in Europe. If pure efficiency is the goal, like Vinsanity mentioned, they would likely go buy a different car. But then again, if gas prices keep going up (I don't think they will), that might change.
^^ You mean, if you start paying a fair price for the car, and not have the rest of the World pay more to practically subsidize your car purchases.
I was at a Mercedes dealership yesterday and got a good look at the E class, inside and out. It's got to be the worst looking car Mercedes makes right now. Well, maybe the SLK is worse.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 17, 2012, 02:05:34 PM
What it boils down to, is that the vast majority rich people who want a fuel efficient car don't buy diesel Mercedes (anymore). They buy fully-loaded Priuses, Camry hybrids, and RX hybrids. Beyond that, expensive fuel sippers just don't sell well. I rarely see any newer diesel Mercedes, hybrid GS/LS models, and hybrid Escalades. I've seen exactly one hybrid S-class.
So what happened to the market of folks who want fuel-efficient luxury cars? Those people have to be around, the type that would buy an E200 CGI if it were offered there...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 18, 2012, 07:28:45 AM
So what happened to the market of folks who want fuel-efficient luxury cars? Those people have to be around, the type that would buy an E200 CGI if it were offered there...
If there were enough demand to warrant it, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi would be taking advantage of it. Lexus sells a luxury hybrid, the CT200h, and I don't think it's doing very well. I've only ever seen one, and that's because I know someone who has one.
If you can't afford to fill the tank of a luxury car, don't buy it, period. No one is entitled to own a luxury car.
The CT200h starts below $30k -- not really relevant to the E-Class market. It's not setting sales records, but it's at around 1,500 a month.
It's doing particularly well in Northwest Washington and probably a few other markets, if not nationwide.
the emperor's new clothes :facepalm:. i had begun admiring the "changes" when in fact the pics are of '12 models, as pointed out. the power of suggestion is astonishing.
Quote from: Raza on March 18, 2012, 07:42:55 AM
If there were enough demand to warrant it, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi would be taking advantage of it. Lexus sells a luxury hybrid, the CT200h, and I don't think it's doing very well. I've only ever seen one, and that's because I know someone who has one.
I seem to recall reading that the CT200h was selling very well.
Quote from: Raza on March 18, 2012, 07:42:55 AMIf you can't afford to fill the tank of a luxury car, don't buy it, period. No one is entitled to own a luxury car.
The point is this: There are people who want a luxury car but don't need all the power and poorer fuel inefficiency of the higher models.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 18, 2012, 07:28:45 AM
So what happened to the market of folks who want fuel-efficient luxury cars? Those people have to be around, the type that would buy an E200 CGI if it were offered there...
Basically, the only fuel-efficient luxury car that sells well (from what I observe) is the Lexus RX hybrid. Like Raza said, as you start spending more money, it's foolish to worry about fuel costs.
Basically, the people who would've bought diesel W126's in the '80s are buying RX hybrids, and those who would've bought diesel W123's are buying fully-loaded Priuses.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 18, 2012, 10:18:20 AM
Like Raza said, as you start spending more money, it's foolish to worry about fuel costs.
But just because you're rich doesn't mean you have to be wasteful.
That's all I am saying. And I am sure there are many people who want a fuel efficient E-Class and aren't fans of diesels, hence an E250 CGI would be the best choice for them.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 16, 2012, 03:46:37 PM
A lot of people buy the 528 because they can't afford a 535 or 550.
Yeah, I doubt that.
Quote from: AltinD on March 18, 2012, 03:35:28 AM
^^ You mean, if you start paying a fair price for the car, and not have the rest of the World pay more to practically subsidize your car purchases.
Huh? How does the rest of the world subsidize car purchases in the U.S.? If it wasn't for the sales volume of the U.S. market, a number of carmakers would probably be out of business today.
Quote from: AltinD on March 18, 2012, 03:35:28 AM
^^ You mean, if you start paying a fair price for the car, and not have the rest of the World pay more to practically subsidize your car purchases.
LOL. A "fair price" is what the market is willing to support. Simple as that. Just because M-B can get away with selling stripped-down 4-cylinder E-classes in the other side of the world for $50k+ or equivalent doesn't give them a good enough reason to do the same here. In the end, they have to be competitive with whatever is being offered in any market they enter.
Jesus, that is just not a good looking car. I can't image that updates will make it look any better.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 18, 2012, 02:17:50 PM
Huh? How does the rest of the world subsidize car purchases in the U.S.? If it wasn't for the sales volume of the U.S. market, a number of carmakers would probably be out of business today.
Yeah, but the margins are very small and volume is the only thing that keeps them there. You all know how market share, volume and "growth" are what matters the most in today's capitalism .... yeah, even more then sheer proffit.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 18, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
LOL. A "fair price" is what the market is willing to support. Simple as that. Just because M-B can get away with selling stripped-down 4-cylinder E-classes in the other side of the world for $50k+ or equivalent doesn't give them a good enough reason to do the same here. In the end, they have to be competitive with whatever is being offered in any market they enter.
I just don't like volume selling strategies, ok! It destroyes everything.
Quote from: AltinD on March 19, 2012, 05:03:42 AM
Yeah, but the margins are very small and volume is the only thing that keeps them there. You all know how market share, volume and "growth" are what matters the most in today's capitalism .... yeah, even more then sheer proffit.
What's your point? Even if MB makes a very small margin here (which I kinda doubt, anyways), they more than make up for it with volume. And to a business, sheer profit matters more than volume and growth. Both are important, especially having decent growth in any market, but at the end of the day, every car maker is going to sell as many cars as they can to get as much profit as possible.
Quote from: AltinD on March 19, 2012, 05:05:08 AM
I just don't like volume selling strategies, ok! It destroyes everything.
You just sound jealous that you have to pay more for cars. :huh:
Our cars cost the same. Taxes make cars more expensive.
Quote from: AltinD on March 19, 2012, 05:03:42 AM
Yeah, but the margins are very small and volume is the only thing that keeps them there. You all know how market share, volume and "growth" are what matters the most in today's capitalism .... yeah, even more then sheer proffit.
:facepalm:
The amount of profit made on an equivalent spec E-class sold on either side of the world is probably the same or similar. The difference is that we don?t pay a 50% mark up due to additional taxes, you do. Your higher prices due to taxes aren?t subsidizing shit over here in the US, least of all our cheaper car prices. Feel free to hate, but don?t make stuff up.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 19, 2012, 08:24:27 AM
:facepalm:
The amount of profit made on an equivalent spec E-class sold on either side of the world is probably the same or similar. The difference is that we don?t pay a 50% mark up due to additional taxes, you do. Your higher prices due to taxes aren?t subsidizing shit over here in the US, least of all our cheaper car prices. Feel free to hate, but don?t make stuff up.
There are no taxes where I live :tounge:
Quote from: thecarnut on March 19, 2012, 05:33:06 AMYou just sound jealous that you have to pay more for cars. :huh:
I am "jelous" because of markets like yours, manufacturers are forced to cheappen up their products ... but on the other hand, you get coockie-cutter products looking all the same and equiped all the same, while we elsewhere can factory customise our vehicles more.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 18, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
LOL. A "fair price" is what the market is willing to support. Simple as that. Just because M-B can get away with selling stripped-down 4-cylinder E-classes in the other side of the world for $50k+ or equivalent doesn't give them a good enough reason to do the same here. In the end, they have to be competitive with whatever is being offered in any market they enter.
50,000 Euros for an E200 CGI would be a dream. With 19% VAT it actually costs 60,000 Euros (50,000 + 19% VAT = 9,500 Euros =
59,500 Euros final price). :praise:
Quote from: AltinD on March 19, 2012, 08:28:21 AM
There are no taxes where I live :tounge:
The elevated price isn't for nothing. I suspect transportation or some other hidden costs is why your cars are more expensive.
It's probably priced for what the UAE can bear, and the UAE can bear some crazy prices...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 19, 2012, 09:29:23 AM
50,000 Euros for an E200 CGI would be a dream. With 19% VAT it actually costs 60,000 Euros (50,000 + 19% VAT = 9,500 Euros = 59,500 Euros final price). :praise:
Damn, the marginal benefit per euro spent on a vehicle decreases very quickly there. Such a shame.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on March 20, 2012, 12:29:48 AM
Damn, the marginal benefit per euro spent on a vehicle decreases very quickly there. Such a shame.
The E200 CGI isn't even the best-seller. The E220 CDI dominates over 50% of E-Class sales and amongst the gasoline-powered models the E250 and E300 sell far more units than the E200, which is now called BlueEfficiency. There's also an E200 NGT which uses LPG as a fuel.
Quote from: Laconian on March 19, 2012, 11:21:01 PM
It's probably priced for what the UAE can bear, and the UAE can bear some crazy prices...
Low and mid-range cars, prices here are slightly more expensive then in USA, but they are way more on top of the range or flagship models. Although these last ones are very well equipped usually. The S500L (550 by you) costs up to $150k here, with the AMG design package added.
There's another not-so-hidden secret about the U.S. market, though, and that is the fact that we're forced to buy upmarket trims on many European cars. There are no 4cyl BMWs here, no lower-end C-Classes, etc. Perhaps the prices are a few thousand dollars lower on the models we DO get, but we don't even have the OPTION of buying any entry-level 3ers or even 1ers.
I suppose the brain trusts in the corporate offices somehow figured out that would produce a higher profit than selling the entire range, although with rising oil prices and a continued poor economy one would have to assume they will entertain something of a change of mindset.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 20, 2012, 09:49:47 AM
There's another not-so-hidden secret about the U.S. market, though, and that is the fact that we're forced to buy upmarket trims on many European cars. There are no 4cyl BMWs here, no lower-end C-Classes, etc. Perhaps the prices are a few thousand dollars lower on the models we DO get, but we don't even have the OPTION of buying any entry-level 3ers or even 1ers.
I suppose the brain trusts in the corporate offices somehow figured out that would produce a higher profit than selling the entire range, although with rising oil prices and a continued poor economy one would have to assume they will entertain something of a change of mindset.
Isn't the new _28i BMW engine a four cylinder?
I can see the business case against low end luxury models. Europeans are xenophobic and very class and image conscious. Compared to them, we don't give a shit about that. We have the option of buying a car with similar or more features than more expensive entry luxury cars that are Japanese or Volkswagens that are European. If you're buying a sub-entry level luxury car, the question then becomes why? If it's that you don't care for the extra power or options, but want the engineering, sure, go for it. But more often than not, I'd think it's all about the badge.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 20, 2012, 09:49:47 AM
There are no 4cyl BMWs here...
I suggest you look at the BMW website and click on 328i or 528i.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 20, 2012, 12:58:51 PM
I suggest you look at the BMW website and click on 328i or 528i.
:(
In any discussion about relative prices, shouldn't there also be consideration given to general purchasing power of the buyer? Wimmer says an E200CGI costs 60,000 Euros, which is about US$80,000 - and I'm guessing it's not all that well equipped. That's about what a totally loaded E500 would go for in the US. So the question is - what does the same guy, with the same job, EARN in both places? Is the average European buyer spending a greater portion of his earnings on the same car? Does he earn more over there and just pay higher prices for everything?
If I moved to Europe, sold my house and car, and did the same job over there, what would I earn, what would I need to pay for housing in a similar neighborhood? Would I need to spend more of my earnings to get the same car?
I'm sure with a little research, I can find this out. But I think it's just more than certain goods just being more expensive.
Hope I made my point clear...I'm trying to work at the same time!
I suppose with a little research I can find this out.
Quote from: Hachee on March 20, 2012, 02:23:37 PM
In any discussion about relative prices, shouldn't there also be consideration given to general purchasing power of the buyer? Wimmer says an E200CGI costs 60,000 Euros, which is about US$80,000 - and I'm guessing it's not all that well equipped. That's about what a totally loaded E500 would go for in the US. So the question is - what does the same guy, with the same job, EARN in both places? Is the average European buyer spending a greater portion of his earnings on the same car? Does he earn more over there and just pay higher prices for everything?
If I moved to Europe, sold my house and car, and did the same job over there, what would I earn, what would I need to pay for housing in a similar neighborhood? Would I need to spend more of my earnings to get the same car?
I'm sure with a little research, I can find this out. But I think it's just more than certain goods just being more expensive.
Hope I made my point clear...I'm trying to work at the same time!
I suppose with a little research I can find this out.
You're forgetting that Europeans also have a different view on luxury.
What is considered luxury here might not be considered luxury in the US. Most Europeans (emphasis on "MOST") tend to be conservative with their luxury purchase. Instead of buying an E500, a simple E220 CDI will do. You're limited to the same speeds as everyone else and an E500 won't get you faster to your destination than an E220 CDI. You're still driving a Mercedes but you're being more socially conscious and getting better fuel economy at the same time. Luxury to most people here is about being inconspicuous and also somewhat socially responsible. I actually know a few people, friend of my dad, who in the '70s and '80s drove the most powerful BMWs or Mercedes' models around - and now they're driving some diesel-powered 1-Series or C or E-Class (or even an A/B-Class) because they've come to a point where they ask themselves "What more do I need? / Do I really need more?"
Even my dad is reaching that point. He likes his E350 CGI but he "sort off regrets going for it when a B-Class offers virtually the same amount of interior space but is more fuel-efficient and easier to manage in the crowded city environment".
From what I gather, luxury in the US is about buying the biggest and the most powerful car possible, even if you don't need the performance, and showing it off to your neighbors. I'll buy an E63 AMG because I can, even if I only will drive from my home to the Golf club down the block. Correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 20, 2012, 03:24:18 PM
From what I gather, luxury in the US is about buying the biggest and the most powerful car possible, even if you don't need the performance, and showing it off to your neighbors. I'll buy an E63 AMG because I can, even if I only will drive from my home to the Golf club down the block. Correct me if I am wrong.
You're not wrong. The same went for Americans when buying homes -- spend all the money you can possibly spend on the biggest house you can find. The issue is that it all came crashing down when people realized they had no savings after being laid off from their jobs. The slightest bump in life caused financial ruin for large segments of our population because of the attitude you described.
People are realizing that bigger isn't always better, even if by the force of economic realities. In my opinion, Americans will eventually have to learn to curb their addiction to credit and buying things they can't afford. Will they still want a Mercedes or BMW? Of course! But then the lower-end luxury cars will become more attractive.
In limited capacities, lower end luxury cars were success stories here. The BMW 318i sold well when they offered it here. I sense these companies didn't offer these cars often because people preferred to spend more money on a bigger engine and more "stuff," but when interest rates rise eventually one wonders if this will be sustainable.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 20, 2012, 03:24:18 PM
Instead of buying an E500, a simple E220 CDI will do. You're limited to the same speeds as everyone else and an E500 won't get you faster to your destination than an E220 CDI.
It could be a matter of simple economics. If Europeans are paying roughly the same amount for an E220 CDI as we are for a loaded E550, then yeah it makes sense that there are a helluva lot more V8 E-class's here than there. For what it's worth, I don't see too many E550's these days (but a substantial number of 350's).
How much is the E220CDI that most livery/taxi drivers have?
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 18, 2012, 02:00:35 PM
Yeah, I doubt that.
So why do they buy the 528, then?
A base 528 starts at $46k. A 550 starts at $62k. There are plenty of people out there that like BMWs and can afford a 528, but not the more expensive versions. (Again, by "afford" I mean both being physically able to buy it and also wanting to spend that much. My parents would cringe at the thought of a $60k car)
Quote from: TurboDan on March 20, 2012, 03:52:01 PM
People are realizing that bigger isn't always better, even if by the force of economic realities. In my opinion, Americans will eventually have to learn to curb their addiction to credit and buying things they can't afford. Will they still want a Mercedes or BMW? Of course! But then the lower-end luxury cars will become more attractive.
It will be interesting to see what the future holds in store and if the European premium marques will bring over some entry-level models.
I think that as long as they're well-equipped, the engine under the hood won't really matter to most people. Even an entry-level luxury car and engine have good performance, at least from our European point of view.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 20, 2012, 03:52:01 PMIn limited capacities, lower end luxury cars were success stories here. The BMW 318i sold well when they offered it here. I sense these companies didn't offer these cars often because people preferred to spend more money on a bigger engine and more "stuff," but when interest rates rise eventually one wonders if this will be sustainable.
I think a modern-day 318i might not appeal to the traditional American BMW buyer who might have grown up with the '70s and '80s Cadillacs and their big engines and expects at least a 6-cylinder minimum. But the newer generation of young Americans, especially the guys who know better, might find an entry-level BMW 3er appealing. As the saying goes (at least from what I am reading on the net these days),
"We don't need 200-hp to have fun!"
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on March 20, 2012, 04:56:33 PM
It could be a matter of simple economics. If Europeans are paying roughly the same amount for an E220 CDI as we are for a loaded E550, then yeah it makes sense that there are a helluva lot more V8 E-class's here than there. For what it's worth, I don't see too many E550's these days (but a substantial number of 350's).
The financial aspect is definitely a factor, but not in the sense that most people going for an E220 CDI couldn't afford an E550 - they just want a nice luxury car with features of their choice but with great gas mileage. The trade-off between an E220 CDI and E500 is that an E500 will come equipped with more standard features than an E220 CDI. But when an E220 CDI is loaded up, the price can approach E500 base price+ territory.
Most people I know who own luxury cars with smaller engines generally explain that they went for the smaller engine because they saw no advantage to owning a bigger and more powerful model. The more powerful models might be quicker to 100 km/h but that's irrelevant to them. They're happy with the performance of the car they bought. Performance in this case means everyday driving and merging unto roads and fuel economy.
Also, most people who buy an E500 generally don't drive a lot, so they're not to worried about gas prices. Somebody who buys a diesel E-Class will usually (usually) do so because they're using the car for business and family which means they're driving a lot and want/need good gas mileage. But many people still buy a diesel E-Class (etc.) even though they don't drive a lot.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on March 20, 2012, 04:57:20 PM
How much is the E220CDI that most livery/taxi drivers have?
A standard E-Class taxi is usually an E200 CDI. They're far more common than the E220 CDI, which already has 170-hp. The E200 CDI has the same engine as the E220 CDI, but it's tuned to produce 136-horsepower.
Here are the base prices for the civilian versions:
E200 CDI: 33,625 Euros base price (
40,013 with 19% VAT)
E220 CDI: 36,025 Euros base price (
42,869 with 19% VAT)
I couldn't find the specific taxi prices, but taxi drivers get a huge discount and great leasing deals. I found this though:
E 220 CDI ?Das Taxi? Taxi-Preis von 29.900 EuroSo a taxi driver can buy an E220 CDI Taxi-spec limousine for 29,900 (19% VAT included). Great deal. :lol:
Taxis come well-equipped with anything from an A/T transmission to a sunroof, MB-Tex or optional leather etc.
Here's the E-Class price list. Download the PDF.
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germany/mpc/mpc_germany_website/de/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/e-class/_w212/advice_sales/pricelist.html
I'm pretty sure their priorities would be vastly different if the displacement, CO2, and fuel tax regimens were different.
Quote from: Laconian on March 20, 2012, 06:01:28 PM
I'm pretty sure their priorities would be vastly different if the displacement, CO2, and fuel tax regimens were different.
Well those things have shaped our mindset. We're happy with our smaller engines. There is no written rule that states that a luxury car can't have a smaller, more efficient engine.
Besides, owning a car is expensive in Europe. ANY CAR. To own a luxury car is expensive in Europe, even an entry-level luxury car. If people were really worried about costs, they wouldn't buy a luxury car. But thankfully we can own luxury cars with good performance and acceptable running costs (E220 CDI vs E500 for example). At the end of the day most people are happy with their purchase and find the performance acceptable. Performance is also subjective. Our cars perform well to us, but Americans think 0-100 km/h in 7 seconds is slow, we don't.
Oh, check this out. Spotted today! This taxi driver has AMG rims on this E-Class! :lol:
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8562/car59.jpg)
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5744/car60.jpg)
Part 1: http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=27027.0
Part 2: http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=27026.new#new
Quote from: Raza on March 16, 2012, 07:46:37 AM
Looks the same..twin foglamps still look stupid.
Are those twins, or are they infrared projector/receivers like BMW has?
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/bmw_011.jpg)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/bmw_011-11.jpg)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 20, 2012, 03:24:18 PM
You're forgetting that Europeans also have a different view on luxury.
What is considered luxury here might not be considered luxury in the US. Most Europeans (emphasis on "MOST") tend to be conservative with their luxury purchase. Instead of buying an E500, a simple E220 CDI will do. You're limited to the same speeds as everyone else and an E500 won't get you faster to your destination than an E220 CDI. You're still driving a Mercedes but you're being more socially conscious and getting better fuel economy at the same time. Luxury to most people here is about being inconspicuous and also somewhat socially responsible. I actually know a few people, friend of my dad, who in the '70s and '80s drove the most powerful BMWs or Mercedes' models around - and now they're driving some diesel-powered 1-Series or C or E-Class (or even an A/B-Class) because they've come to a point where they ask themselves "What more do I need? / Do I really need more?"
Even my dad is reaching that point. He likes his E350 CGI but he "sort off regrets going for it when a B-Class offers virtually the same amount of interior space but is more fuel-efficient and easier to manage in the crowded city environment".
From what I gather, luxury in the US is about buying the biggest and the most powerful car possible, even if you don't need the performance, and showing it off to your neighbors. I'll buy an E63 AMG because I can, even if I only will drive from my home to the Golf club down the block. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think you're unconsciously making excuses for behavior that's dictated by government intervention and a lack of physical space.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 20, 2012, 06:07:34 PM
Well those things have shaped our mindset. We're happy with our smaller engines. There is no written rule that states that a luxury car can't have a smaller, more efficient engine.
There is, actually. A luxury is something beyond what is necessary.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 20, 2012, 04:32:55 PM
Apparently that 4 banger is very impressive.
Apparently it sounds like a diesel at idle and lacks the same throttle response. Not to mention the inherent reliability issues.
It's an objectively good engine, just not the one I'd want.
Quote from: Raza on March 20, 2012, 08:32:52 PM
I think you're unconsciously making excuses for behavior that's dictated by government intervention and a lack of physical space.
Yet those same factors are the reasons they engineer the cars you like to own. Why don't you buy your own cars that are build with the prospect of ample physical place?
Quote from: Raza on March 20, 2012, 08:32:52 PM
I think you're unconsciously making excuses for behavior that's dictated by government intervention and a lack of physical space.
People are free to buy what they want here provided they can afford it. If you're not capable of financing and maintaining your dream car, then don't buy it. It's that simple. We all have dream cars and we most likely can't afford them anyway, taxes or no taxes.
Owning a more powerful car here simply means more taxation and more stops at the gas station. The people who buy something like an E500 here can clearly afford to pay these bills and it's not an issue. It's just something we put up with because life in Europe is expensive and the taxes are high. It's a fact. And most likely they don't drive huge distances so gas mileage isn't an issue.
People who buy an E220 CDI can most likely also afford an E500, they just don't want to pay the taxation or they don't care for the E500 and it's performance at all (and they want good fuel economy) and deem the E220 CDI as sufficient in terms of performance. There are many reasons.
Performance is subjective. To the average European an E220 CDI is a fast car and it's fuel efficient to. So why buy an E500?
Even if we didn't have these taxations in place, I wouldn't pick an E500 over an E220 CDI. What's the point of an E500 anyway? That you get to 60 mph in under 6 seconds and can brag about it on an Internet forum? You'll still have to stop more often for gas than in an E220 CDI and I find that annoying. I like low fuel consumption and maximum range in my cars - any car (except in a sports car of course).
I want to believe you, but I don't.
Of course not. One need only look at the car-buying behaviour of recent European ?migr?s. They don't buy "the more fuel-efficient" option. In my experience they're quick to buy a big, gas-guzzling SUV because for the first time in their lives they can.
Yup... "The way things are" != the ideal.
You could say that people in rural India might find cars to be tremendously wasteful, and they are just happy with their scooters will still fit their entire families on them, and they don't cost them a month's paycheck to fill them up.
OK, that might be true for them. But make cars cheaper, lower the price of gas, and give the buyers more spending money, and the whole equation changes...
Anyways, Christian, I'm not disagreeing with European buyer's priorities. I am just dubious about the provenance of those priorities.
Quote from: Raza on March 21, 2012, 05:45:34 PM
I want to believe you, but I don't.
You sound like Scully!
Quote from: 93JC on March 21, 2012, 05:57:14 PM
Of course not. One need only look at the car-buying behaviour of recent European ?migr?s. They don't buy "the more fuel-efficient" option. In my experience they're quick to buy a big, gas-guzzling SUV because for the first time in their lives they can.
Do they even have a choice in America?
The only economical SUVs in America that I can think of are the Lexus RX450h, MB ML350 Bluetec, MB GL350 Bluetec, BMW X5 3.0d and probably a handful more. I'm sure that when someone who lives in Europe moves to America, they want to try a gas guzzler, especially when gas is cheap. Is it a sensible choice? No, especially if they're not using say their pickup for work-related reasons.
Other people I know return from an American vacation and bemoan the lack of choice in your market regarding efficient cars (like we have in Europe).
Quote from: Laconian on March 21, 2012, 06:02:50 PM
Anyways, Christian, I'm not disagreeing with European buyer's priorities. I am just dubious about the provenance of those priorities.
It's all a question of finances.
The people who own super luxury cars here can afford it. Money isn't an issue. If you can't afford such cars, don't buy them.
Other people, who could afford such cars, have different priorities (fuel economy etc.) and therefor buy something else. My dad could have easily bought an E500 or an E63 AMG. The taxation that comes with these cars is totally irrelevant to him (it's irrelevant to him on his current E350 CGI!!!). He just didn't want an E500+ when an E350 CGI offers better gas mileage. Who cares about 0-100 km/h? An E350 CGI is a quick car and it's a premium car. And yet, he still tells me that he wouldn't have minded an E220 CDI (or a B-Class!).
You'd be surprised as to how many people in top positions own a sensible luxury car here. Some big shot manager of some firm drives a normal Audi A4 Avant TDI Quattro for example.
Quote from: 93JC on March 21, 2012, 05:57:14 PM
Of course not. One need only look at the car-buying behaviour of recent European ?migr?s. They don't buy "the more fuel-efficient" option. In my experience they're quick to buy a big, gas-guzzling SUV because for the first time in their lives they can.
Bingo. We all, meaning the whole fucking world, like the same shit. As soon as anyone can buy -because they can afford it and it's available - fancy stuff, they DO. Look at any nation in the world. People are the same all over the world.
The only difference in Europe, and perhaps some other places, is that the taxation and fuel prices are just so high that they just don't want to go for the E550s, etc. I don't blame them. Look at the sales of E550s vs E350s in the US. I don't know, but I'm guessing it's 10 to 1, in favor of the E350.
And people in Europe are just as, if not more, image concious as those in the US. They want the Benz, but they prefer smaller ones because of your cities, and smaller engines because of taxes and fuel prices. People are more willing to spend the money on the car, but they balk at running costs. I've got an X5 diesel. It was no cheaper than the 35i, and fuel is usually more expensive, but I simply wanted to USE less fuel each year.
And Wimmer, as for people like your dad and his friends saying, "Well, I don't need the big car or big engine any more, the smaller ones are just fine" - well, that's called ageing. I see it with my dad and his group of friends. A few years ago they'd be buying 7 Series, and then they're in their 70s and even 80s, and now a lot of them are totally happy with Lexus E350s and Hyundais.
But how's all that taxation working out? Seems to me that the middle class gets punished with outrageously high fuel taxes (and even dumber... engine displacement sales taxes) in Europe yet European countries' financial houses are in arguably less order than the U.S.
Now, personally, I wouldn't buy the E550 over the E350. But the fact that government actively "punishes" people as part of some kind of enviro-lunacy social statement is mind blowing, to say the least – especially when all of the tax money collected seems to be flushed down the toilet. Believe me, the same type of shit is starting to happen here at the hands of Obama's ultra-left-wing cabinet appointees, but at least people are in an uproar about it.
It's hard to believe that the people of the continent that ruled the world for so many centuries just roll over and take it from a bunch of whimpy politicians who want to control every aspect of their existence through gouging taxation. "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
Quote from: TurboDan on March 22, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
It's hard to believe that the people of the continent that ruled the world for so many centuries just roll over and take it from a bunch of whimpy politicians who want to control every aspect of their existence through gouging taxation. "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
OTOH, Europeans have a deeper history of living in a feudal society under lords and monarchs and shit, who tell their 99%er subjects how to live their lives.
Their roads are 100x better than ours, thanks to those taxes, though. :devil:
Except in Belgium, I hear those roads look like Edward James Olmos' face.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 22, 2012, 09:47:06 AM
It's hard to believe that the people of the continent that ruled the world for so many centuries just roll over and take it from a bunch of whimpy politicians who want to control every aspect of their existence through gouging taxation. "Thank you sir, may I have another?"
I don?t think it?s that unbelievable. Like Vinsanity mentioned, you have a history of people being ruled by a select few (monarch, bishop, priest, etc) and never really questioning it. The government is just an extension of that. Looking at even more modern history, you have a European people ravaged by two industrial wars and they probably welcome their governments? attempts at peace and order. Honestly, Europeans probably more value peace/order than they do freedom.
European-like choices will be coming more readily to the states as owning a car here becomes European expensive. Gas is going up, the dollar is going down, and people seemingly have less money than they used to. All of these things will force people into an E220 rather than the E350/550. And as much as Wimmer likes to think we have a choice, the government does make it more and more narrow. The more expensive they make owning a car, the less of a choice you have. But it seems that a lot of Europeans are happy with the trade off that the higher prices give them. But, to say that people don?t buy a bigger engine in their car because they don?t need one is disingenuous. People will usually buy the largest/biggest/badest thing they can afford, and Europeans are no different. The difference is that the largest/biggest/badest thing they can afford happens to be a lot smaller than the things here. Besides, if Europeans really were the sensible, buy what they need types, luxury cars wouldn?t exist in the first place since they are about excess in the first place. The fact that Mercedes has been able to find success selling a down market luxury is proof positive that people value opulence and will buy as much of it as they can afford.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 22, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
But it seems that a lot of Europeans are happy with the trade off that the higher prices give them.
Which are...?
Last I checked, Europe wasn't exactly financially stable despite the outrgaeous tax burdens. What good has it done? Seems the gas taxes, VAT, and everything else hasn't helped to delay austerity measures that are knocking the continent over on its head in terms of the reality that, as Regan said, "eventually, you run out of other people's money."
The scary thing is that half of this country wants to force us into the same boat. Sorry, but $7 gas will never do anything to help our economy. We're 300 million people stretched between two oceans – not tens of millions who all live in a few cities. Of course, NYC liberals think everyone should just take dirty subways everywhere like they do. Ugh.
Well these arguments will always go in circles. ;)
Stupid rants ... Europe has E200, USA has ES300
Quote from: TurboDan on March 22, 2012, 03:42:03 PM
Which are...?
A more socialized healthcare, better roads, more environmentally conscious cars, etc. These are all things that Europeans consider a ?fair? trade off to their tax burden.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 22, 2012, 03:42:03 PM
Last I checked, Europe wasn't exactly financially stable despite the outrgaeous tax burdens. What good has it done? Seems the gas taxes, VAT, and everything else hasn't helped to delay austerity measures that are knocking the continent over on its head in terms of the reality that, as Regan said, "eventually, you run out of other people's money."
The scary thing is that half of this country wants to force us into the same boat. Sorry, but $7 gas will never do anything to help our economy. We're 300 million people stretched between two oceans ? not tens of millions who all live in a few cities. Of course, NYC liberals think everyone should just take dirty subways everywhere like they do. Ugh.
I don?t disagree with you. But at the end of the day, its up to the people to elect better representatives (on both sides) or else we?re going to be in the same mess. Although, I doubt the American people will be near as passive as the Europeans are.
O_o I think Americans are way more passive. We're fucking coasting on our predecessors' greatness, bro. As a country, we haven't the stomach to confront and discuss the hard issues in an intellectually honest way.
Quote from: Laconian on March 23, 2012, 12:02:48 PM
O_o I think Americans are way more passive. We're fucking coasting on our predecessors' greatness, bro. As a country, we haven't the stomach to confront and discuss the hard issues in an intellectually honest way.
How are Europeans any different?
Quote from: Xer0 on March 23, 2012, 09:00:29 AM
A more socialized healthcare, better roads, more environmentally conscious cars, etc. These are all things that Europeans consider a ?fair? trade off to their tax burden.
Indeed.
And a low crime rate.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 23, 2012, 09:00:29 AMI don?t disagree with you. But at the end of the day, its up to the people to elect better representatives (on both sides) or else we?re going to be in the same mess. Although, I doubt the American people will be near as passive as the Europeans are.
The car taxation scheme took off after the first two oil shocks of the '70s. Prior to that gas was relatively cheap in Europe and yet diesel cars were still offered by some manufacturers, namely Mercedes and Peugeot.
Someone who buys an E500 or E63 AMG in America doesn't care about gas mileage. Right? The same is true here - and they also don't care about the car taxes they have to pay because they can afford it. And - the car taxes aren't that bad. Americans seem to have this misconception about our tax structure in regard to cars.
Let's compare the E220 CDI W212 and the E500 W212.
Mercedes E220 CDI W212 vs
Mercedes E500 W212 (both sedans)
Conditions: 15,000 km per year with normal driving style (130 km/h Autobahn speeds) and with fuel prices at: Super 1,66 ?/l and Diesel at 1,52 ?/l
Horsepower: 170-hp /
408-hpInsurance: ? 104 /
? 145Fuel costs: ? 139 /
? 251Car tax (per month): ? 26 /
? 27Car tax (per year): ? 307 /
? 324Maintenance costs: ? 49 /
? 63Monthly fixed costs: ? 317 /
? 487And here's what I pay for my E87 BMW 118i.
Car tax per month: 11 ?
Pear year: 135 ?
Now, diesel cars are taxed higher than gasoline cars, and yet over 50% of cars sold in Europe are diesel-powered.
Comparison: BMW 118i E87 vs BMW 118d E87Conditions: 15,000 km per year with normal driving style (130 km/h Autobahn speeds) and with fuel prices at: Super 1,66 ?/l and Diesel at 1,52 ?/l
Horsepower: 143-hp /
143-hpInsurance: ? 90 /
? 94Fuel costs: ? 154 /
? 124Car tax (per month): ? 11 /
? 26Car tax (per year): ? 135 /
? 312Maintenance costs: ? 34 /
? 34Monthly fixed costs: ? 288 /
? 277^See how diesel cars get the shit taxed out of them compared to a gasoline-powered car?^
Overall the car taxes are the least of our worries. Fuel costs are expensive and highly taxed.
The people that use their luxury car for business or drive long distances have the option of purchasing an economical diesel version. Some folks just don't like gassing up all the time, me included. That's the beauty of our car market - there's a car for everyone. The US doesn't have that in regards to luxury cars. I'd go as far as saying that this view on "luxury is all about power and performance and excess" is old and outdated. Luxury is also subjective and it depends on the expectations and wants and needs of the individual. And in this day and age, with the focus on efficiency, the market for powerful luxury cars won't grow.
And lastly, you might find this hard to believe, but many people here look down upon big gas-guzzling luxury cars and SUVs with powerful engines, even some people who buy luxury cars (and they buy something economical). Europeans are a bit more conscious about the environment than Americans, I don't think there is any question about that. Electricity and water and fuel costs are high, so we tend to react accordingly and not leave our lights on when we leave our homes for example or leave the water running when we shave our beards for example.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 22, 2012, 03:42:03 PMOf course, NYC liberals think everyone should just take dirty subways everywhere like they do. Ugh.
Ew, gross. I hate the subway. I get poor people on me.
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 23, 2012, 12:04:37 PM
How are Europeans any different?
I can only talk about France, but what I saw was different. The news media takes on global and more intellectual subjects (no exploding graphics, no terror alert crawls), French people spend much more time talking to each other (mealtime is often interminably long), and talking about politics is not taboo at all, even between persons of opposing views.
I'm no Europhile. I'm not putting Europe on a pedestal. But I think it's delusional to not recognize that the USA has a lot of problems that need resolving. Unfortunately, I think the news media has infantilized Americans to the point that we haven't the capacity to discuss or even comprehend nuance.
Quote from: Laconian on March 23, 2012, 12:02:48 PM
O_o I think Americans are way more passive. We're fucking coasting on our predecessors' greatness, bro. As a country, we haven't the stomach to confront and discuss the hard issues in an intellectually honest way.
I?m not so sure. American?s are distrusting the news media more and more now-a-days. Then you have the uprising of huge movements like the Tea Party and OWS, which both have anti-government sentiments (even though one doesn?t really know it yet). Hell, the former even managed to get quite a few of its representatives in office last election cycle. I really don?t think (and don?t hope) that Americans are that passive.
I don't think that a movement that is purely fueled by rhetoric is an improvement. The media might be discredited, but nothing is filling its place. So facts and logic lose out to populist dogma.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 23, 2012, 09:00:29 AM
A more socialized healthcare, better roads, more environmentally conscious cars, etc. These are all things that Europeans consider a ‘fair’ trade off to their tax burden.
I wonder how well they will like all of them when their governments fail under the staggering debt these luxuries require?
Quote from: Laconian on March 23, 2012, 12:27:02 PM
I can only talk about France, but what I saw was different. The news media takes on global and more intellectual subjects (no exploding graphics, no terror alert crawls), French people spend much more time talking to each other (mealtime is often interminably long), and talking about politics is not taboo at all, even between persons of opposing views.
I'm no Europhile. I'm not putting Europe on a pedestal. But I think it's delusional to not recognize that the USA has a lot of problems that need resolving. Unfortunately, I think the news media has infantilized Americans to the point that we haven't the capacity to discuss or even comprehend nuance.
France is also closet fucking racist like you cannot believe, as is Sweden. Back woods America has some serious issues (and unfortunately it seems, Florida as well) but I'm not sure a NYC-esque ethnically diverse population could survive in say, Paris.
I mean, I'm not knocking France, I'm a big part French, actually. However, every nation on this planet has it's problems. I'm still not sure that England's questionably effective NHS cancels out the draconian self-defense policies that seem to be making the news more and more nowadays.
Quote from: hounddog on March 23, 2012, 04:03:41 PM
I wonder how well they will like all of them when their governments fail under the staggering debt these luxuries require?
To be fair, I'm fairly certain our debt ratio/GDP is higher than many Euro-zone nations.
Of course, our banks are in much better shape than theirs are.
Quote from: Submariner on March 23, 2012, 04:51:10 PM
France is also closet fucking racist like you cannot believe, as is Sweden.
The French National Soccer Team(http://miscellany101.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/france.jpg)
Spot the white guy! :tounge:
Quote from: Raza on March 18, 2012, 06:54:26 AM
I was at a Mercedes dealership yesterday and got a good look at the E class, inside and out. It's got to be the worst looking car Mercedes makes right now. Well, maybe the SLK is worse.
i dropped by one of our nearby 'benz dealership recently and noticed the same thing. they did not have any new SLK models in stock so i cannot comment on that model, but the others, yes:
the C-class sedan tries too hard to be a mini s-class. it does not work. it looks too stubby.
the new C-class coupe looks too much like a honda accord coupe, IMO. not bad for honda, terrible for a mercedes.
the e-class sedan looks very "american" -- what mercury should have done in the states... it would have work, especially with the rear looking "classic mercury" -- i liked the current e-class sedan design as a "mercedes-benz" for the first year or two, but it has aged considerable, i think. if the interior "rocked", it would be acceptable, but it looks too 80ish, IMO for such a critical product for 'benz.
the e-class wagon looks awesome. the entire body is cohesive, i think. the AMG treatment works extremely well here.
the S-class looks mighty fine, but its ready for a redesign. still, a classy car for 2012 and i would add spectacular with the AMG package.
the CL looks awesome after its "recent" revision... scheduled at just the right time to keep it refresh and lines as fine and smooth as glass.
the CLS looks hot, hot, hot... especially the exterior... there is hope! the CLS AMG variant is sheer perfection.
the R-class will no longer be sold in the U.S. after the 2012 model year... announced just this week.
the M/ML-class and GL-class SUV/crossovers do nothing for me... the c-class based GLK has potential, but is very spartan inside and too straight edged and not "rugged" enough for my tastes.
the G-class? Not for everyone and that is just the point. apparently, it has its "insanely rich" followers.
the new 2013? will wait until i see one in the flesh... i do like the retro grille work!
the SLS is sensational as either coupe or convertible.
i would never give up on mercedes-benz, but i think BMW has the lead in design at the moment.
Benz got the GLK right, though. One of the best small crossovers on the market, IMO, and a very pleasing design to boot. I'm seeing a great number of them on the road around here lately, too.
GLK's design's right? .... Wait, what?!
Quote from: AltinD on March 24, 2012, 11:51:31 AM
GLK's design's right? .... Wait, what?!
(http://www.britishmotorcar.com/dealerimages/Dealer%202722%20Images/mercedes%20glk%20exterior%20rear.jpg)
Not a fan? I think it's a very pleasing design!
Never been a fan and never will. Q5 is great, the new X3 is good too, the Tihuan is so-so ... the LR Evoque is just f@king amaizing (especially in white). I'm surprised how they could pull such a radical design right.
Haha, not a fan of the GLK here, either... the angles make it look fussy and fragile, and the associations I have built from seeing the people that drive it aren't good either - the same sort of oblivious crowd that drives the RX.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 24, 2012, 09:48:50 AM
Benz got the GLK right, though. One of the best small crossovers on the market, IMO, and a very pleasing design to boot. I'm seeing a great number of them on the road around here lately, too.
i posted a thread today on the revised 2013 GLK. i discovered the article following the comments i made above. mercedes seemed to tweak just the right things to put the vehicle back in the running for me... check out the great pics of its exterior and interior for '13. amazing difference a richer look inside and more rugged touches and elegant lines to the exterior.
Quote from: Atomic on March 24, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
i posted a thread today on the revised 2013 GLK. i discovered the article following the comments i made above. mercedes seemed to tweak just the right things to put the vehicle back in the running for me... check out the great pics of its exterior and interior for '13. amazing difference a richer look inside and more rugged touches and elegant lines to the exterior.
Yeah. I mean, all of this stuff is subjective, but I'm surprised how many people seem to dislike the GLK here. I always thought it had a great design - not too big, not too small, a good amount of room. Sort of like a luxury, German version of a Forester.
And as I mentioned, they seem to be getting very popular, at least in my area.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 24, 2012, 01:37:15 PM
Yeah. I mean, all of this stuff is subjective, but I'm surprised how many people seem to dislike the GLK here. I always thought it had a great design - not too big, not too small, a good amount of room. Sort of like a luxury, German version of a Forester.
And as I mentioned, they seem to be getting very popular, at least in my area.
The GLK isnt the best looking thing in its class but I think part of the reason that its selling so well is the design. Its a very 'trucky' looking SUV were all of the other competitors are a lot more smooth and streamlined. Its pricing is pretty competitive too, which is nice.
Quote from: TurboDan on March 24, 2012, 01:37:15 PM
Yeah. I mean, all of this stuff is subjective, but I'm surprised how many people seem to dislike the GLK here. I always thought it had a great design - not too big, not too small, a good amount of room. Sort of like a luxury, German version of a Forester.
And as I mentioned, they seem to be getting very popular, at least in my area.
I personally love it. Pretty tough looking and very truck like, as XerO mentioned. I love the Evoque too
Just in from AMS. In Europe the new E200 will get a brand new 1.6-l 4-cylinder engine. Efficiency, baby. :ohyeah:
^Everyone here who read that went "My god, those silly Europeans!" :lol:^
E200, is that a chassis code for a new Toyota Auris?
Quote from: Laconian on March 25, 2012, 12:42:40 PM
E200, is that a chassis code for a new Toyota Auris?
Pretty much ...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SmCozCCO0aI/AAAAAAAB64M/YFwnSYwfFUQ/s800/Mercedes-E200-0.jpg)
Quote from: Laconian on March 24, 2012, 12:11:35 PM
Haha, not a fan of the GLK here, either... the angles make it look fussy and fragile, and the associations I have built from seeing the people that drive it aren't good either - the same sort of oblivious crowd that drives the RX.
Blank?
Attributing a quote with which he agrees, perhaps. Ye olde fashioned way of saying '+1'.
Quote from: Laconian on March 25, 2012, 12:42:40 PM
E200, is that a chassis code for a new Toyota Auris?
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6199/poor.gif)
:nono: :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 25, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
Just in from AMS. In Europe the new E200 will get a brand new 1.6-l 4-cylinder engine. Efficiency, baby. :ohyeah:
^Everyone here who read that went "My god, those silly Europeans!" :lol:^
Turbo I guess
Quote from: TurboDan on March 24, 2012, 09:48:50 AM
Benz got the GLK right, though. One of the best small crossovers on the market, IMO, and a very pleasing design to boot. I'm seeing a great number of them on the road around here lately, too.
I was looking one over at the Mercedes dealer when I was there last weekend (or whenever that was). It looks great. The C class is probably my favorite Mercedes right now, but on looks the CLS is still king, removing the SLS from the equation.
Quote from: Raza on March 26, 2012, 08:53:59 AM
I was looking one over at the Mercedes dealer when I was there last weekend (or whenever that was). It looks great. The C class is probably my favorite Mercedes right now, but on looks the CLS is still king, removing the SLS from the equation.
i hear you about the CLS, raza. i am not that impressed with the current C-class. it looks very stubby to me. the interior is not bad, though. i would not discount the c-class sedan but find the BMW 3-series (especially the new 2012 model) too irresistible.
I really hate the look of the new 3 series. The A4 and C class would win me over just by looking so much better.
Quote from: Raza on March 27, 2012, 08:59:47 AM
I really hate the look of the new 3 series. The A4 and C class would win me over just by looking so much better.
Have you seen it in person?
Quote from: 850CSi on March 27, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
Have you seen it in person?
The headlamps touch the grille. Burn it.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=26995.msg1693494#msg1693494 date=1332900346
The headlamps touch the grille. Burn it.
That's a stupid reason to dislike a car. Especially one car that looks basically the same as the old model.
The more I see the new 3er, the more I like it. The design isn't that bad and it has been growing on me.