http://www.examiner.com/article/top-20-best-selling-cars-of-june-2012-and-the-first-half-of-2012
And best-sellers by class:
http://www.examiner.com/article/best-selling-cars-of-june-2012-and-the-first-half-of-2012-by-class
The 2013 Malibu is already out? I haven't noticed seeing one on the streets yet. And I live near a fairly busy airport.
Quote from: Vinsanity on July 03, 2012, 01:27:20 PM
The 2013 Malibu is already out? I haven't noticed seeing one on the streets yet. And I live near a fairly busy airport.
The Eco version has been out for months. I believe they've just begun rolling out the cheaper ones.
Ahh, 32,107 more people who have resigned themselves to automotive boredom for years to come with a brand, spankin' new Camry.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 03, 2012, 02:14:12 PM
Ahh, 32,107 more people who have resigned themselves to automotive boredom for years to come with a brand, spankin' new Camry.
Would you prefer that people who are shopping for a family sedan buy a Miata?
I really don't get the animosity towards the Camry.
First of all, it's arguably best in class (not including the 2013 Fusion). Secondly, if I'm looking for a fucking family sedan to get me from point A to point B (and that would more often than not mean that I'm not an enthusiast and therefore do not care about being Lewis Hamilton), why should I buy anything more interesting?
I'm not saying I subscribe to that mentality, but it is very easy to see why one would. I think all you sheep just hate on the Camcord because it's the cool thing to do.
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 03, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
I really don't get the animosity towards the Camry.
First of all, it's arguably best in class (not including the 2013 Fusion). Secondly, if I'm looking for a fucking family sedan to get me from point A to point B (and that would more often than not mean that I'm not an enthusiast and therefore do not care about being Lewis Hamilton), why should I buy anything more interesting?
I'm not saying I subscribe to that mentality, but it is very easy to see why one would. I think all you sheep just hate on the Camcord because it's the cool thing to do.
Last generation wasn't best in class, and people buy them in droves without considering any competitors.
New one is pretty nice, though.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 03, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
Last generation wasn't best in class, and people buy them in droves without considering any competitors.
New one is pretty nice, though.
Thing still was reliable, quiet, comfortable and well equipped. Wasn't my cup of tea, but I can see why it had widespread appeal.
I'm very impressed by the new one.
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 03, 2012, 02:43:17 PM
Thing still was reliable, quiet, comfortable and well equipped. Wasn't my cup of tea, but I can see why it had widespread appeal.
I'm very impressed by the new one.
The interior is slapdash and cheap, driving dynamics are needlessly sloppy.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 03, 2012, 02:47:01 PM
The interior is slapdash and cheap, driving dynamics are needlessly sloppy.
The Malibu we rented was shittier in every way.
If you're talking about the new one, that's not what I hear.
Any idea how many of those Ford Escape sales are of the new 2013 model versus leftover stock of the ancient outgoing one? I saw a new Escape on the road a couple of days ago and it looked bigger than I thought it would. Even so, it's still a very handsome car. Ford is on a roll right now and I hope they keep it up.
I can't believe the awful Civic and Corolla are outselling the Focus. Just goes to show how many idiots buy based on habit and outdated misconceptions instead of really looking to see who's making the best car.
The Focus is expensive, lurchy and cramped compared to the Civic or Corolla. There is no obvious better or worse between them.
I'm pretty sure the big spike in Escape sales compared to the previous month indicates lots of 2013s, though of course it's impossible to know for sure.
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 03, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
I really don't get the animosity towards the Camry.
First of all, it's arguably best in class (not including the 2013 Fusion). Secondly, if I'm looking for a fucking family sedan to get me from point A to point B (and that would more often than not mean that I'm not an enthusiast and therefore do not care about being Lewis Hamilton), why should I buy anything more interesting?
I'm not saying I subscribe to that mentality, but it is very easy to see why one would. I think all you sheep just hate on the Camcord because it's the cool thing to do.
Yup, it's what the kids do to make themselves think they're cool; also, with 84.4% confidence of irony show me a Camry hater and I'll show you someone who owns a car that would get lunched in all performance metrics by a new(er) Camry (SE V6).
I don't recall noticing a new Escape on the streets, either.
Quote from: Vinsanity on July 03, 2012, 01:27:20 PM
The 2013 Malibu is already out? I haven't noticed seeing one on the streets yet. And I live near a fairly busy airport.
I have seen three 2013 Chevrolet Malibu's at Enterprise and a few on our regional Chevy lots. My brother-in-law helped his Aunt with the purchase of an outgoing 2012 Malibu she would not have purchased without the $3,000 factory rebate, huge dealer discount and low financing. She was planning on buying a Buick Lacrosse but could not pass out Chevrloet's amazing close out sale on the '12 Malibu. For non enthusiasts, the 2012 is a great value right now. Enthusiasts? They are likely to buy a different vehicle altogether, IMO or the a 2013 over a '12 model if going with a Malibu.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 04, 2012, 01:14:49 AM
Yup, it's what the kids do to make themselves think they're cool; also, with 84.4% confidence of irony show me a Camry hater and I'll show you someone who owns a car that would get lunched in all performance metrics by a new(er) Camry (SE V6).
I'm not a Camry hater because of its 0-60 time. I'm a hater because it's a "jack of all trades, master of none" type vehicle that does everything adequately enough, but nothing noteworthy whatsoever. It's a symbol of mediocrity. It's a car people get when they can't be bothered to research or test drive a number of cars and choose the one they truly want. It's a car that whipped husbands buy when their wives order them like little children not to spend money on a cooler midsize car.
To me, the Camry symbolizes apathy, laziness and settling for mediocrity. Like the guy who barely makes it to middle management and never tries for another promotion. It's a dead end.
(Yes, I get that it's just a damn car. But that is truly why I hate the stupid Camry.)
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 03, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
I really don't get the animosity towards the Camry.
First of all, it's arguably best in class (not including the 2013 Fusion). Secondly, if I'm looking for a fucking family sedan to get me from point A to point B (and that would more often than not mean that I'm not an enthusiast and therefore do not care about being Lewis Hamilton), why should I buy anything more interesting?
I'm not saying I subscribe to that mentality, but it is very easy to see why one would. I think all you sheep just hate on the Camcord because it's the cool thing to do.
It's a car for people who don't like cars. That's why.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27699.msg1744019#msg1744019 date=1341419476
It's a car for people who don't like cars. That's why.
That's a willfully ignorant comment. You can like the freedom of a car and of driving -- as most Americans do -- without caring which particular machine allows you that freedom. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 03, 2012, 02:14:12 PM
Ahh, 32,107 more people who have resigned themselves to automotive boredom for years to come with a brand, spankin' new Camry.
You clearly haven't driven the new Camry. Probably the best driving dynamics out of that entire market segment. I drove it all last week (probably 800+ miles or so), and you know what? It's fuckin great.
Quote from: MrH on July 04, 2012, 10:45:43 AM
You clearly haven't driven the new Camry. Probably the best driving dynamics out of that entire market segment. I drove it all last week (probably 800+ miles or so), and you know what? It's fuckin great.
"Dynamics" in what sense? Sporty and balanced? Or quiet and competent?
Quote from: MrH on July 04, 2012, 10:45:43 AM
You clearly haven't driven the new Camry. Probably the best driving dynamics out of that entire market segment. I drove it all last week (probably 800+ miles or so), and you know what? It's fuckin great.
Trollin'?
I've also driven a 2012 Camry, at a demo event at the LA Auto Show back during last November. It's basically everything anyone would want in a midsize family sedan without being a Lexus.
The Camry I drove was closer to the definition of "mediocre" than ever -- it gave up most of the things it was truly great at (ride quality, quietness, price) in order to no longer be below average for steering, handling and interior quality. (And these, too, are comfortably in the middle of the class.)
It's ridiculous to generalize about all Camry buyers or to claim that they've given up on life or hate driving or whatever other nonsense, but it's not exactly a world-beating car.
I suspect when a number of you decide you want to multiply and have a couple of more kids, you'll begin to see why so many people decide on Camcords or minivans as a family transport. No one is pretending they are dynamic handling sports machines, but the cars/vans offer a lot of space and little maintenance and decent mileage. When you've got mouths to feed, aspects like this are worth their weight in gold because you just don't have the time to worry about silly little issues with the family mobile.
Quote from: ifcar on July 04, 2012, 12:01:04 PM
The Camry I drove was closer to the definition of "mediocre" than ever -- it gave up most of the things it was truly great at (ride quality, quietness, price) in order to no longer be below average for steering, handling and interior quality. (And these, too, are comfortably in the middle of the class.)
It's ridiculous to generalize about all Camry buyers or to claim that they've given up on life or hate driving or whatever other nonsense, but it's not exactly a world-beating car.
I dunno, the 2012 demo Camry I referred to was at least as smooth and quiet as the '07 that I rented way back when my old TL got totaled. Then again, I just remembered that the demo car was a hybrid, so that probably helped with the quietness aspect.
Quote from: Northlands on July 04, 2012, 12:03:44 PM
I suspect when a number of you decide you want to multiply and have a couple of more kids, you'll begin to see why so many people decide on Camcords or minivans as a family transport.
Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.
The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:34:34 PM
Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.
The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
The space difference is huge, regardless of the specs. But it's obviously the price difference that makes the difference for most people. If you could buy a nicely-equipped A4 for the price of a nicely-equipped Jetta, of course more people would.
I have to say, LOL at all this "elithusiast" gospel. This is painful.
Quote from: ifcar on July 04, 2012, 12:37:08 PM
The space difference is huge, regardless of the specs. But it's obviously the price difference that makes the difference for most people. If you could buy a nicely-equipped A4 for the price of a nicely-equipped Jetta, of course more people would.
I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.
As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 04, 2012, 12:38:00 PM
I have to say, LOL at all this "elithusiast" gospel. This is painful.
I agree, even though I started it. :lol:
I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).
Quote from: thecarnut on July 04, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Trollin'?
Dead serious. It's no Miata or anything, but compared to everything else in the class? Pretty great.
My dad finally got a 2012 Camry SE as a rental in California a few weeks ago. He liked the interior, but not as much as his Sonata. Said the steering was a little more communicative. He liked it enough, but felt his Sonata is a better car. I don't blame him.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:43:10 PM
I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.
As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?
The A4 is one of the more cramped entry-level cars....legroom comes in at 35.2" inches in the rear.
For comparison, this is actually SMALLER than the rear legroom in my Yaris. (35.6", not much of a difference, but keep in mind that my Yaris is roughly 1/3 of the price)
Camry's legroom is at around 42" or so.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:45:30 PM
I agree, even though I started it. :lol:
I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).
Because entry-level luxury cars aren't all that great for many people. They generally are expensive to fix, hard to work on, and more expensive to own, buy and pretty much use.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:34:34 PM
Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.
The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.
You DO realize that the price difference between a Camry and a 3-series or similar is close to $12000?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:43:10 PM
I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.
As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?
When the cars get up in age, the cost to keep the Audi on the road will be painful compared to the Camry.
Quote from: CJ on July 04, 2012, 01:18:35 PM
My dad finally got a 2012 Camry SE as a rental in California a few weeks ago. He liked the interior, but not as much as his Sonata. Said the steering was a little more communicative. He liked it enough, but felt his Sonata is a better car. I don't blame him.
The Camry's steering is more communicative than the Sonata's? That doesn't quite fare well for the Sonata, because the Camry still felt more like a driving simulator than an actual car. I still maintain that they're both great cars for their intended purpose.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:45:30 PM
I agree, even though I started it. :lol:
I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).
:nutty:
Pretty straightforward really, there's less discretionary income remaining after starting a family - kids are 'f-in expensive.
That, and there
is a significant difference in space between a Camry an A4.
Quote from: Vinsanity on July 04, 2012, 02:20:25 PM
The Camry's steering is more communicative than the Sonata's? That doesn't quite fare well for the Sonata, because the Camry still felt more like a driving simulator than an actual car. I still maintain that they're both great cars for their intended purpose.
Yeah. The Sonata's EPS isn't very well dialed in, honestly. I like the variable assist, but the Camry does have better feedback. It also has EPS, but it's just marginally better. It's still a Camry. If the Elantra GT is any indication of things to come with Hyundai's EPS, then I think we'll have a winner.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:43:10 PM
I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.
As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?
Every dollar counts when you have kids. I just priced them out on their Canadian websites. $33,700 for a Camry V6 XLE ($526 a month not incl. tax), and $45,200 for a Audi A4 Premium ($850 a month not incl. tax). Also, the A4 is quite a bit smaller than a Camry/Accord/Fusion.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:34:34 PM
Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.
The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.
It's not a boring thing. People just head towards things that are more value oriented. If one can get a vehicle that does every mundane task they want quite proficiently, they'll get the one that does it for the least amount of dollars. There are cars out there that are better in multiple aspects compared to Camcords, but overall for the money, they are an easy pick for some people who don't want to worry about that car in their fleet since it's going to need to be the most reliable one in their fleet.
Hell, we're a two car family, and in a number of years, probably a three car. But I'm planning on one of those cars to be a vanilla dull / worry free kind of car. :lol: One of the others will be more entertaining to drive.
Quote from: ifcar on July 04, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
That's a willfully ignorant comment. You can like the freedom of a car and of driving -- as most Americans do -- without caring which particular machine allows you that freedom. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. That's a person who doesn't like cars, more freedom.
Quote from: ifcar on July 04, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
That's a willfully ignorant comment. You can like the freedom of a car and of driving -- as most Americans do -- without caring which particular machine allows you that freedom. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Your statement and mine are not mutually exclusive. Enjoying the freedom of a car is not the same thing as liking cars. Very much in the same way that mailing a letter doesn't make you a stamp collector.
I never said there was anything wrong with it. All I said it was a car for people who don't like cars. Whether they view driving as a chore or a means to an end makes no difference; they're still people who don't like cars.
Quote from: Northlands on July 04, 2012, 12:03:44 PM
I suspect when a number of you decide you want to multiply and have a couple of more kids, you'll begin to see why so many people decide on Camcords or minivans as a family transport. No one is pretending they are dynamic handling sports machines, but the cars/vans offer a lot of space and little maintenance and decent mileage. When you've got mouths to feed, aspects like this are worth their weight in gold because you just don't have the time to worry about silly little issues with the family mobile.
And no one is saying they're bad cars or that people shouldn't buy them. Just that they're made for and marketed to people whose car decision making process is dictated far more by need than want. Which is fine. Just don't expect enthusiasts to like them.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:34:34 PM
Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.
The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.
Budgets are a thing too. The A4 is more expensive to buy and more expensive to maintain, and despite only being a little smaller, the Camry is still a size class up and a lot of people buy on space per dollar. I get why people buy them. Although, were I in the position of having to buy a mainstream midsize sedan, I'd still be looking at the Passat first (well, not the current generation, but I really love the last gen).
Quote from: Raza on July 05, 2012, 09:26:39 AM
Your statement and mine are not mutually exclusive. Enjoying the freedom of a car is not the same thing as liking cars. Very much in the same way that mailing a letter doesn't make you a stamp collector.
I never said there was anything wrong with it. All I said it was a car for people who don't like cars. Whether they view driving as a chore or a means to an end makes no difference; they're still people who don't like cars.
Not liking is not the same as not having a strong preference. I like computers but I'm not a computer enthusiast.
So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...
See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.
A lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 02:32:07 PM
So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...
See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.
I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.
I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.
QuoteA lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.
I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.
I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.
Uh, have you ever maybe thought that some people just want something roomy, comfortable and reliable for a good price, and
don't care about the driving dynamics?
Hard to believe, but the world doesn't revolve around you...
Quote from: thecarnut on July 05, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
Uh, have you ever maybe thought that some people just want something roomy, comfortable and reliable for a good price, and don't care about the driving dynamics?
Hard to believe, but the world doesn't revolve around you...
Another facet of Camry haterism I find interesting - 90% of new A4/C300/328i buyers don't care about driving dynamics either; they're buying a badge first, styling second, and "luxury" third. Add in the elevated maintenance and repair costs, less reliability, and compromises on interior space, and it's no wonder a new Camry sells sells ginormously more than a slightly used A4/C300/328i of the same approximate cost.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.
I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.
No offense but your "theory" is somewhere between faked moon shots and UFO abductions. People buy the Camry in droves because it is a great car.
Quote
I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.
My point was I don't see who someone who has sat in either car can't come to the conclusion that the Camry is way way bigger. Interior space counts, and it's compromised on the "entry level" luxury cars, and it's a justifiable problem for a lot of people.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 06:43:15 PM
No offense but your "theory" is somewhere between faked moon shots and UFO abductions. People buy the Camry in droves because it is a great car.
It's a mediocre car that does everything adequately, but nothing excellently.
QuoteMy point was I don't see who someone who has sat in either car can't come to the conclusion that the Camry is way way bigger. Interior space counts, and it's compromised on the "entry level" luxury cars, and it's a justifiable problem for a lot of people.
On a midsize sedan, the only type of space that counts is legroom. The front seats on the A4 are just fine for adults, and the rear seats are just fine for children or a car seat. Actually, as long as you're not obese, the rear seats are just fine for an adult as well. Trunk space is average. If you need a significant amount of additional space, the Camry isn't going to help you. You need and SUV or minivan.
Also, FWIW, I see the ever-increasing proportions of midsize cars as just as much of a compromise when it comes to pulling into parking spaces, maneuvers on the highway and a number of other situations. Again, why does a midsize car have to be so large? Is the few extra inches of space really usable space, or is it just superfluous excess that translates into a car that is unnecessarily large?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 07:31:58 PM
It's a mediocre car
Let me nip your post in the bud. No, it really isn't.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 02:32:07 PM
So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...
See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.
A lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.
When will you ever understand that performance is more than straight line performance?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.
I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.
I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.
1) Most people are not car enthusiasts (that's ok).
2) The space difference between a Camry and an A4 is significant (and if all that matters is legroom, why are you talking about obesity? You don't have to be obese to think the A4 backseat lacks space)
3) The cost difference between a Camry and A4 is significant. To an upper middle class family of four with two cars, the cost difference is
very significant.
4) This is probably more subjective, but IMO the reliability + maintenance advantage of a Camry over an A4 is not insignificant.
Your argument makes no sense ... In fact, I often find myself asking the complete opposite question, namely why do so many people who aren't into cars choose to drive such expensive ones? For an upper middle class guy with a family who isn't into cars (and many aren't), driving a $45k A4 makes zero practical sense IMO.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.
I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.
A base Camry starts at 22K. A base 2.0T FWD CVT auto A4 starts at 32K. That's a HUGE difference. That's at least another $100 or so in monthly payments.
I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.
Not only are midsizers notably roomier, but the way the seats are configured, it's a lot more workable for those who have kids.
Quote from: Vinsanity on July 04, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
I don't recall noticing a new Escape on the streets, either.
I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.
Quote from: Atomic on July 05, 2012, 08:51:01 PM
I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.
I wonder where the old Escape owners will go, though. There aren't too many SUV-ish looking small SUVs left. I guess the Liberty, for now, but what happens after that gets crossover'd when the new Liberty/Cherokee comes out? The Xterra is a lot bigger, and the LR2 will be around and maintain a more traditional SUV shape in its next iteration, but it's $10-15K more expensive.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 08:54:47 PM
I wonder where the old Escape owners will go, though. There aren't too many SUV-ish looking small SUVs left. I guess the Liberty, for now, but what happens after that gets crossover'd when the Cherokee comes out? The Xterra is a lot bigger, and the LR2 will be around and maintain a more traditional SUV shape in its next iteration, but it's $10K more expensive.
Old Escape owners will buy new Escapes or similar. The new Escape is a vastly better vehicle (or at least should be) than the old one which has roots from 2001. Liberty has that "SUV" look, but both it and Xterra are terrible on-road (which is honestly what most SUV buyers are looking for).
Besides, I think the Evoque has made sales of the LR2 fall in the toilet...
Quote from: Atomic on July 05, 2012, 08:51:01 PM
I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.
I've seen quite a few on the roads here.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
Old Escape owners will buy new Escapes or similar. The new Escape is a vastly better vehicle (or at least should be) than the old one which has roots from 2001. Liberty has that "SUV" look, but both it and Xterra are terrible on-road (which is honestly what most SUV buyers are looking for).
Besides, I think the Evoque has made sales of the LR2 fall in the toilet...
I dunno. Around here, lots of people like having a small SUV that's actually capable of towing a boat up a slipper and steep ramp, riding on the beach, etc. Will these people buy the new model? Will males buy the much-more-feminine looking new Escape?
LR is in a transition period right now. They want Range Rover to be its own premium brand, and Land Rover to go somewhat downmarket and be more offroad-oriented. I suspect the next Freelander (LR2) will remain in the U.S. market, but as a more refined option rather than the entry level Defender, which will be slated to compete against the Wrangler.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 09:11:44 PM
I dunno. Around here, lots of people like having a small SUV that's actually capable of towing a boat up a slipper and steep ramp, riding on the beach, etc. Will these people buy the new model? Will males buy the much-more-feminine looking new Escape?
LR is in a transition period right now. They want Range Rover to be its own premium brand, and Land Rover to go somewhat downmarket and be more offroad-oriented. I suspect the next Freelander (LR2) will remain in the U.S. market, but as a more refined option rather than the entry level Defender, which will be slated to compete against the Wrangler.
The Escape is as good or bad as other CUV's when it comes to doing those things. Commenting on the "masculinity" of the design is also stupid (the original was never really "masculine" and the new one looks really sharp in person). The Escape is the same thing it has always been....a FWD, car-based CUV.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:17:03 PM
The Escape is as good or bad as other CUV's when it comes to doing those things. Commenting on the "masculinity" of the design is also stupid (the original was never really "masculine" and the new one looks really sharp in person). The Escape is the same thing it has always been....a FWD, car-based CUV.
Huh? Nobody had ever heard of a "CUV" when the Escape was introduced. It was a small SUV. And I never said the original was particularly masculine or feminine, it was neutral. The new one seems very feminine in comparison, however.
Volt outsold the Leaf 3:1. 5 months in a row the Volt wins.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 09:22:39 PM
Huh? Nobody had ever heard of a "CUV" when the Escape was introduced. It was a small SUV. And I never said the original was particularly masculine or feminine, it was neutral. The new one seems very feminine in comparison, however.
Rav4, CRV, Outlander (shortly later), Highlander, Pilot (shortly later), and a plethora of "Cute-utes" that came around that time.
The Escape was as "useless" as them.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:25:43 PM
Rav4, CRV, Outlander (shortly later), Highlander, Pilot (shortly later), and a plethora of "Cute-utes" that came around that time.
The Escape was as "useless" as them.
How is the Pilot a "cute ute?"
And again, nobody used the phrase "crossover" before like 2008.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27699.msg1744368#msg1744368 date=1341502430
And no one is saying they're bad cars or that people shouldn't buy them. Just that they're made for and marketed to people whose car decision making process is dictated far more by need than want. Which is fine. Just don't expect enthusiasts to like them.
Oh I wouldn't. I do respect them for what they are... but they don't keep me awake at night in anticipation of driving them. :lol:
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 09:27:22 PM
How is the Pilot a "cute ute?"
And again, nobody used the phrase "crossover" before like 2008.
The Pilot is a raised Accord, essentially.
It's also the reason why no one respects the Ridgeline (which is essentially the same; a FWD Crossover with a bed.)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:30:29 PM
It's also the reason why no one respects the Ridgeline (which is essentially the same; a FWD Crossover with a bed.)
Riiiiiight. :rolleyes:
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 09:36:20 PM
Riiiiiight. :rolleyes:
What? It's a Pilot with a bed. It has the same useless "Real-time AWD" as other Honda models. It's unitbody, and when the rear wheels aren't on, it's usually in FWD mode. The engine is transverse mounted. It's easier to drive than a Full-size truck, but it loses almost all capability; fuel economy is about the same as most full-size pickups but it can't tow or haul like they can.
Quote from: Northlands on July 05, 2012, 09:30:19 PM
Oh I wouldn't. I do respect them for what they are... but they don't keep me awake at night in anticipation of driving them. :lol:
Yeah, they're basic and reliable transportation. I understand why people buy them. I just never would personally. And their sales success is pure bell curve. It's right in the fat part, so people who are in the fat part buy them in droves. It's simple, really. Why hate on them? As enthusiasts, the Camry is the opposite of the things we value. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't buy them. Most people aren't car enthusiasts and don't care about cars--and that's just fine.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27699.msg1744649#msg1744649 date=1341546590
Yeah, they're basic and reliable transportation. I understand why people buy them. I just never would personally.
I think they're more of a good idea than a midsized sedan. Compact CUV's often have legroom similar to them, but being basically a hatchback, they're more practical.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:51:15 PM
I think they're more of a good idea than a midsized sedan. Compact CUV's often have legroom similar to them, but being basically a hatchback, they're more practical.
Having just spent a lot of time in something the size of a Buick Enclave (it was a Buick Enclave), I beg to differ. Practicality comes at the cost of the third row of seats and security of your cargo, and the second row was not exactly comfortable.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27699.msg1744654#msg1744654 date=1341546770
Having just spent a lot of time in something the size of a Buick Enclave (it was a Buick Enclave), I beg to differ. Practicality comes at the cost of the third row of seats and security of your cargo, and the second row was not exactly comfortable.
The GM LAMBDA triplets aren't known for being all that space efficient, and the 2nd row is a complaint among that particular model line.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
What? It's a Pilot with a bed. It has the same useless "Real-time AWD" as other Honda models. It's unitbody, and when the rear wheels aren't on, it's usually in FWD mode. The engine is transverse mounted. It's easier to drive than a Full-size truck, but it loses almost all capability; fuel economy is about the same as most full-size pickups but it can't tow or haul like they can.
They're perfectly capable in most off-road applications - I've seen them personally on soft sand and in the mud, and they run just as well as the Fords and Chevys. They can tow a 5,000 pound boat. They can haul shit. What more does one need to be "respected?" A truck more apt to have a Confederate flag draped over the rear cab window?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 10:14:31 PM
They're perfectly capable in most off-road applications - I've seen them personally on soft sand and in the mud, and they run just as well as the Fords and Chevys. They can tow a 5,000 pound boat. They can haul shit. What more does one need to be "respected?" A truck more apt to have a Confederate flag draped over the rear cab window?
It's as capable as pretty much every CUV out there.....
A Ram, Silverado, and F150 will out tow, out haul, and be better off road. For reference, a base 2WD 3.7L V6 F150 is rated to tow more than the Ridgeline.....then when you get into the bigger engines, they can tow around double what the Ridgeline can.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 10:21:12 PM
A Ram, Silverado, and F150 will out tow, out haul, and be better off road. For reference, a base 2WD 3.7L V6 F150 is rated to tow more than the Ridgeline.....then when you get into the bigger engines, they can tow around double what the Ridgeline can.
Yeah, and U.S. Army deuce and a half is even better. Just because another vehicle exists that is more capable of doing something doesn't mean another shouldn't be respected? Why would one sacrifice ride quality and fit and finish to buy a vehicle capable of doing things they'll never do unless they have to? Why wouldn't someone "respect" a Ridgeline? Perhaps because they have some kind of hillbilly-ish romanticism towards domestic pickups combined with little man syndrome, but I digress...
The Ridgeline is perfectly capable in 90% of offroad situations, including beach/soft sand driving, green lanes and a reasonable level of mud situations. And its fit and finish, driveability and overall quality is head over heels better than most other pickups.
Because it sacrifices most things pickups do well, but doesn't even have that many benefits. Those large trucks are actually very good on road. The Ridgeline is a little better on road, but for the most part the trade offs are quite large.
For example, Fuel economy is around the same as the big guys, but it doesn't really have the capability of them.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 07:31:58 PM
It's a mediocre car that does everything adequately, but nothing excellently.
The point being that the allegation that the Camry is a best-seller in part because wives scream at their husbands is just crazy.
Quote
On a midsize sedan, the only type of space that counts is legroom. The front seats on the A4 are just fine for adults, and the rear seats are just fine for children or a car seat. Actually, as long as you're not obese, the rear seats are just fine for an adult as well. Trunk space is average. If you need a significant amount of additional space, the Camry isn't going to help you. You need and SUV or minivan.
Also, FWIW, I see the ever-increasing proportions of midsize cars as just as much of a compromise when it comes to pulling into parking spaces, maneuvers on the highway and a number of other situations. Again, why does a midsize car have to be so large? Is the few extra inches of space really usable space, or is it just superfluous excess that translates into a car that is unnecessarily large?
Counts to you maybe but you're in the minority obviously; the market wants more interior space, and automakers are doing that WITHOUT making the cars bigger. The Camry is the same length as the G sedan for example.
Quote from: Raza on July 05, 2012, 07:51:50 PM
When will you ever understand that performance is more than straight line performance?
Performance is what I want it to be.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 10:40:31 PM
Performance is what I want it to be.
If that is the case, you can't argue what performance is to someone else.
My Yaris is a better performer than your G37 because it gets vastly better fuel economy. (See how dumb that sounds?)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 10:41:35 PM
If that is the case, you can't argue what performance is to someone else.
My Yaris is a better performer than your G37 because it gets vastly better fuel economy. (See how dumb that sounds?)
Do ever feel awkward engaging? (Enter also the lecture on the Pilot/Ridgeline.)
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Do ever feel awkward engaging? (Enter, the lecture on the Pilot/Ridgeline.)
Do you ever really read your posts and ask why do you ever engage? (See the G vs 328i thread)
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 10:39:01 PM
The point being that the allegation that the Camry is a best-seller in part because wives scream at their husbands is just crazy.
Not as crazy as you would think.
There's a young lady at my work. For a bit of background information, she's in her mid-20s, married with no kids yet. A coupe of years ago, her car died. (I can't remember what it was but it was something dreary and awful!) Anyway, her husband is a real estate agent and was already shopping for a new SUV to carry clients. He drove an E46 3 Series sedan and his plan was to simply give it to his wife. The BMW was paid for and this seemed to make the most practical and financial sense. However, there was just one little problem........she HATED the BMW!!!
She complained the seats were "too hard" and the car's handling was "too darty" (cue rolling eyes from me) and it just wasn't comfortable to drive. She made it clear to her husband that she DIDN'T WANT the BMW! Can you believe that? How can anyone not want a BMW? Especially one that was already paid for!
So, under much duress, this poor bastard was forced to sell his BMW. What did the wife choose to replace it with, you ask. A fecking Nissan Altima! Yep, the Altima. A car many critics regard as a second-rate alternative to a Camry and Accord won out over a 3 series. Need I remind all of you the 3 Series is benchmark sedan in it's class? It's the car all it's competitors aspire to be like. Yet, she wanted an Altima instead. When she told me this, something inside my head exploded. I'm pretty sure it was the part of the brain that controls logic because this made absolutely no sense to me.
Never underestimate the power of a ditzy female to make men do some incredibly stupid things!
Actually, IMO the "logic" is the irony that girls tend to be more logical on automotive choices than men. For her, a new Altima is definitely a better choice than a used E46.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 11:47:04 PM
Actually, IMO the "logic" is the irony that girls tend to be more logical on automotive choices than men. For her, a new Altima is definitely a better choice than a used E46.
The Altima she bought was used.
Quote from: Madman on July 05, 2012, 11:30:00 PM
When she told me this, something inside my head exploded. I'm pretty sure it was the part of the brain that controls logic ...
This explains a lot. I have long thought that the part of your brain that controls logic must have exploded at some point in your past.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
Old Escape owners will buy new Escapes or similar. The new Escape is a vastly better vehicle (or at least should be) than the old one which has roots from 2001. Liberty has that "SUV" look, but both it and Xterra are terrible on-road (which is honestly what most SUV buyers are looking for).
Besides, I think the Evoque has made sales of the LR2 fall in the toilet...
Think you are right. Change is not easy for loyalists, but those not willing to give the new model a try might also be ready to move up to something bigger, a bit sportier or more luxurious. If so inclined, I can see many graduating to an Explorer or another Ford product. No telling, but I am certain the new Escape will be a perennial best selling cute 'ute and even top selling all around vehicle to make the top ten (even top five!) routinely - monthly I bet.
Also, Mercury Mariner owners - and I know plenty - will likely be in the market soon - thinking most will likely gravitate towards the all new Escape or even going for a 2012. How do I know "many" Mariner drivers (chuckle)? ...because of a great (former) family owned Lincoln-Mercury dealership nearby that sold countless Mercury's - especially SUV's before becoming a Ford only store. Car and truck owners around here are fiercelyloyal to their dealerships and a lot do not look elsewhere. Things are changing (sadly, IMO) as the "ma and pa" stores are being driven out or bought out by mega dealers.
On a personal note, the family owned Volvo dealership I ordered from is stellar! The know their product. They only sell Volvo's and have two dealerships in NYS.
Another point re: increased Escape sales, I just saw this morning on a local weather channel great regional deals on 2012 Ford Escape leases - thinking the deal could be state, tri state or even national. Regardless of fleet sales or retail, FMC deserves its spot in the top 10 :clap: !
Quote from: Madman on July 05, 2012, 11:30:00 PM
Not as crazy as you would think.
There's a young lady at my work. For a bit of background information, she's in her mid-20s, married with no kids yet. A coupe of years ago, her car died. (I can't remember what it was but it was something dreary and awful!) Anyway, her husband is a real estate agent and was already shopping for a new SUV to carry clients. He drove an E46 3 Series sedan and his plan was to simply give it to his wife. The BMW was paid for and this seemed to make the most practical and financial sense. However, there was just one little problem........she HATED the BMW!!!
She complained the seats were "too hard" and the car's handling was "too darty" (cue rolling eyes from me) and it just wasn't comfortable to drive. She made it clear to her husband that she DIDN'T WANT the BMW! Can you believe that? How can anyone not want a BMW? Especially one that was already paid for!
So, under much duress, this poor bastard was forced to sell his BMW. What did the wife choose to replace it with, you ask. A fecking Nissan Altima! Yep, the Altima. A car many critics regard as a second-rate alternative to a Camry and Accord won out over a 3 series. Need I remind all of you the 3 Series is benchmark sedan in it's class? It's the car all it's competitors aspire to be like. Yet, she wanted an Altima instead. When she told me this, something inside my head exploded. I'm pretty sure it was the part of the brain that controls logic because this made absolutely no sense to me.
Never underestimate the power of a ditzy female to make men do some incredibly stupid things!
Isn't that outrageous that someone wouldn't want a car they don't like?
Quote from: ifcar on July 06, 2012, 07:02:15 AM
Isn't that outrageous that someone wouldn't want a car they don't like?
Another plug for gay marriage: A two man household and cars they love :lol: ! Some great benefit. Chuckle...
A long week, fellow 'spinners. Hot, tired and punchy. TGIF!
Quote from: GoCougs on July 04, 2012, 01:14:49 AM
Yup, it's what the kids do to make themselves think they're cool; also, with 84.4% confidence of irony show me a Camry hater and I'll show you someone who owns a car that would get lunched in all performance metrics by a new(er) Camry (SE V6).
Once again, straight line performance is not the be all end all of driving enjoyment.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 04, 2012, 12:34:34 PMWhy can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?
Maybe because some people just want a device to get them from point A to point B, and don't give a shit about anything else.
Its like asking why people don't buy Epaulet instead of Dockers. They don't give a shit, and are not at fault for doing so.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 10:40:31 PM
Performance is what I want it to be.
Scores and scores of magazines, race organizations and more credible enthusiasts disagree. Your automotive/enthusiast resume is pretty weak, its a wonder people engage you in these conversations at all.
Quote from: Madman on July 05, 2012, 11:56:25 PM
The Altima she bought was used.
A used Altima is better for her than a used 3er; less maintenance, less repairs, more space, more comfort.
Quote from: Lebowski on July 06, 2012, 05:15:55 AM
This explains a lot. I have long thought that the part of your brain that controls logic must have exploded at some point in your past.
:lol: :clap:
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2012, 11:47:04 PM
Actually, IMO the "logic" is the irony that girls tend to be more logical on automotive choices than men. For her, a new Altima is definitely a better choice than a used E46.
Not when the E46 is already paid for.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 05, 2012, 10:31:50 PM
Yeah, and U.S. Army deuce and a half is even better. Just because another vehicle exists that is more capable of doing something doesn't mean another shouldn't be respected? Why would one sacrifice ride quality and fit and finish to buy a vehicle capable of doing things they'll never do unless they have to? Why wouldn't someone "respect" a Ridgeline? Perhaps because they have some kind of hillbilly-ish romanticism towards domestic pickups combined with little man syndrome, but I digress...
The Ridgeline is perfectly capable in 90% of offroad situations, including beach/soft sand driving, green lanes and a reasonable level of mud situations. And its fit and finish, driveability and overall quality is head over heels better than most other pickups.
lulz if you think off road driving is driving on the beach... any FWD would do that anyways.
In fact, here's an Accord doing some "real" off roading:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svTmsMOfPMA
Best-selling cars by class (asterisks denote a new winner compared to the previous month):
Subcompact cars: Kia Soul
Compact cars: Honda Civic
Midsize cars: Toyota Camry
Large cars: Chevrolet Impala
Entry-luxury cars: BMW 3-Series*
Luxury cars: Mercedes-Benz E-Class*
Compact crossovers/SUVs: Ford Escape*
Midsize crossovers/SUVs: Chevrolet Equinox
Large crossovers: Ford Explorer
Large SUVs: Chevrolet Tahoe/Suburban
Entry-luxury crossovers/SUVs: Lexus RX
Luxury crossovers/SUVs: BMW X5
Minivans and vans: Ford E-Series*
Pickups: Ford F-Series
Full top-10 sales charts for each class at link:
http://www.examiner.com/article/best-selling-cars-of-june-2012-and-the-first-half-of-2012-by-class
At the risk of reopening the Camry vs. A4 can of worms, the space difference is significant for those of us who have kids. Have you seen how big car seats are these days? When they are rear-facing (which they are supposed to be up to age 2), you need a tremendous amount of space in the rear seat to mount them without making the front seat uninhabitable for people with legs. For example, Inside Line had trouble fitting a rear-facing car seat into a 2012 Explorer (http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/04/2012-ford-explorer-child-safety-seat-fitment-test.html), a gigantic car if there ever was one.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 05, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
What? It's a Pilot with a bed. It has the same useless "Real-time AWD" as other Honda models. It's unitbody, and when the rear wheels aren't on, it's usually in FWD mode. The engine is transverse mounted. It's easier to drive than a Full-size truck, but it loses almost all capability; fuel economy is about the same as most full-size pickups but it can't tow or haul like they can.
The AWD system seems to fulfill its purpose just fine, assuming you don't try to rock crawl it; and I wonder what having the engine transverse mounted means one way or the other.
The Ridgeline's stats are close in line with the light duty versions of the F-150, which was all it was ever intended to do anyways.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 07, 2012, 01:23:25 AM
The AWD system seems to fulfill its purpose just fine, assuming you don't try to rock crawl it; and I wonder what having the engine transverse mounted means one way or the other.
The Ridgeline's stats are close in line with the light duty versions of the F-150, which was all it was ever intended to do anyways.
I'm not going to lie, I don't mind the Ridgeline, but as a pure value proposition something in my brain just doesn't jive with the Ridgeline.
Quote from: thecarnut on July 06, 2012, 12:01:48 PM
lulz if you think off road driving is driving on the beach... any FWD would do that anyways.
You absolutely cannot ride on soft sand in an FWD vehicle. Not at all.
And no, the hard sand at Daytona Beach is not what I'm talking about.