It's interesting how everyone loves to hate on Toyota, but honestly they are the best in the business for a reason.
One fact I can personally attest to is the ease of service and maintenance.
Alternator on the Yaris went out last week. I would like to consider myself decently mechanically inclined, and given the past experiences I have had with other mechanics, I decided to give it a go myself.
- Alternator is held on with two bolts.
- Belt falls away (manual tension, via the alternator itself) and the serpentine belt is done in such a manner that when a new belt is installed, there should be no tugging to get the new one back onto the pulleys.
- Water pump and AC compressor also run on this belt (PS is electric), they are also a pretty easy job
- Alternator ground/connector is facing outward, comes apart with a 10MM socket.
- most of the bolts on the car are 10MM
It only took an hour; most of it due to my incompetence (put the belt on wrong). Now, I could do it in as little as 20 minutes.
Compare this to my old Neon, when I had to take the alternator off
- Manual tensioner, but held on via the PS pump.
- Alternator is very inaccessible - I needed to take a wheel off and reach it from the bottom.
- Most of the assembly time was forcing that stupid belt back on.
I never did anything mechanical on the Focus; it was just too hard and too frustrating. I sent it out (with horrible results...).
Coupled with the fact that the 1.5L engine and transmission is used in pretty much ALL of Toyota's small-car lineup, it's easy to see how they can make so much money and have such loyal customers. It's interesting to see how Toyota gets it so right, and everyone else gets it so wrong.
I'm a believer. I wouldn't be surprised if I got another Toyota after my Yaris.
The cars themselves may be bland as toast, but they're really, really, really reliable.
Our Camry was absolutely the best vehicle we've ever owned.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
The cars themselves may be bland as toast, but they're really, really, really reliable.
From the sound of it, your car has been nothing but trouble since you got it.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1748435#msg1748435 date=1342212938
From the sound of it, your car has been nothing but trouble since you got it.
Read the issues I had. Most of them are wear related or are issue that are known with the car. Not uncommon with any car, and the car has always run like a champ.
Gas tank - previous owner related.
Cooling fan - blown fuse
airbag light - bad clockspring; Toyota should do something about this, but it too is a very simple fix
alternator - these things break. 80K for the stock unit is par for the course
That's about it.
My 94 Rolla is maintanece friendly also. Thats a rarity now a days.......
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
The cars themselves may be bland as toast, but they're really, really, really reliable.
Says the guy who just replaced his alternator at only 80 kmiles.
Replaced mine at over 200k. I guess the 90's Toyotas really were the best. :mask:
Our Camry was still original everything, except battery.
Quote from: Rupert on July 13, 2012, 03:03:51 PM
Says the guy who just replaced his alternator at only 80 kmiles.
That's about right. Neon's went at 100k.
80,000 miles of life for an alternator is NOT par for the course or anywhere near it.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
The cars themselves may be bland as toast, but they're really, really, really reliable.
How does a thread about replacing the alternator on a young car turn into a thread crowing about said car's "reliability?"
These preconceived notions about reliability is why I don't trust anything but my own experience as a judge. Your Yaris has been falling apart since the day you bought it, but we're supposed to believe it's reliable. My VW Passat was still running fine when I traded it in with 155,000 miles, having had minimal repairs in its life, and VW is somehow "unreliable."
Toyota literally changed the entire world of manufacturing (there are entire companies that consult on Toyota manufacturing consulting; there are even whole college degrees on the subject). A lot of those changes revolved around vastly better ways of putting parts together (which included designing those parts to that end). Sometimes that results in those parts being easier/better to take apart.
Here however, IMO you're more or less lucky that the alternator was an easy swap; it was a means not an end. Automakers don't purposefully design cars to be repair friendly, even Toyota. Toyota changed the automotive industry by taking the opposite tack - instead of purposefully making cars easier to repair (which adds waste and cost) simply design cars so they need less repair.
I can see how it'd be nice to own a Toyota; it operates as competent transportation.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
80,000 miles of life for an alternator is NOT par for the course or anywhere near it.
that was the maximum life on Gen1 Taurus fuel pumps and alternators.
I was just amused talking with the wife that we have all Japanese now. And in the 3 years we've had the Yota van it's needed 1/6 the work our Dodge needed for the same time period and miles driven. Bought both vans with about 120k miles on them.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
80,000 miles of life for an alternator is NOT par for the course or anywhere near it.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 03:24:02 PM
How does a thread about replacing the alternator on a young car turn into a thread crowing about said car's "reliability?"
These preconceived notions about reliability is why I don't trust anything but my own experience as a judge. Your Yaris has been falling apart since the day you bought it, but we're supposed to believe it's reliable. My VW Passat was still running fine when I traded it in with 155,000 miles, having had minimal repairs in its life, and VW is somehow "unreliable."
Both of you are making the mistakes of using 1 data point as indicative of a million data point pool. Toyotas are
generally pretty reliable. VWs are (well, were)
generally unreliable. One example of each is hardly enough to validate/invalidate millions of prior examples.
As for Toyotas, say what you want, but the cars do their jobs for the people who own them. I would def do an old Corolla for a commuter. When you throw mods at it its all the same shit anyway.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 03:18:45 PM
That's about right. Neon's went at 100k.
No, it really isn't about right.
I don't know how you manage to buy shitty cars all the time, but it sure is funny watching you justify your ownership when they (frequently) break.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 13, 2012, 04:13:01 PM
Both of you are making the mistakes of using 1 data point as indicative of a million data point pool. Toyotas are generally pretty reliable. VWs are (well, were) generally unreliable. One example of each is hardly enough to validate/invalidate millions of prior examples.
As for Toyotas, say what you want, but the cars do their jobs for the people who own them. I would def do an old Corolla for a commuter. When you throw mods at it its all the same shit anyway.
Cougs hasn't said anything about brand reliability, and Dan's main point was that, with this particular car (i.e. 2o6's Yaris), the evidence does not support the statement that it's, "really really really reliable".
Yeah, what I stated was fact - Toyota changed the world of manufacturing and pretty much most anything manufactured today has benefited for the better.
Then again, what don't you state as "fact"?
:lol:
Toyota has a good manufacturing process. They are good a building shit, but they don't build good shit.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2012, 03:19:55 PM
80,000 miles of life for an alternator is NOT par for the course or anywhere near it.
Suppliers for early MY cars made crappy parts. This got better with later models.
The thing still charges ok, but the voltage regulator failed.
Quote from: Rupert on July 13, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
Cougs hasn't said anything about brand reliability, and Dan's main point was that, with this particular car (i.e. 2o6's Yaris), the evidence does not support the statement that it's, "really really really reliable".
Read what failed. What failed on my car isn't hard to fix, is generally common (maybe not the fuel tank, but you have to consider how it failed) and stuff that IMO is quite minimal. It's not like the motor has thrown a rod through the block.
The focus had far more trouble areas, both related to age and design.
Quote from: Rupert on July 13, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
No, it really isn't about right.
I don't know how you manage to buy shitty cars all the time, but it sure is funny watching you justify your ownership when they (frequently) break.
What am I supposed to do, break down and cry and say "you guys were right"?
You freaking kill me.
You could not spend three days of posts freaking out then deciding which shitty mechanic to take it to then bitching about the job they do then saying how wonderful the car is, even after all that. ;)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 05:25:44 PM
Suppliers for early MY cars made crappy parts. This got better with later models.
The thing still charges ok, but the voltage regulator failed.
Read what failed. What failed on my car isn't hard to fix, is generally common (maybe not the fuel tank, but you have to consider how it failed) and stuff that IMO is quite minimal. It's not like the motor has thrown a rod through the block.
The focus had far more trouble areas, both related to age and design.
Right, but
stuff still failed.
1. I don't hate Toyota. I'm not sure I agree they're the best in the business but that's another debate.
2. It's not uncommon for alternators to be held on with just two bolts.
3. It's not that uncommon for Japanese belts to be easy to put on. It's not just a Toyota thing.
4. Most bolts are 10mm on Japanese cars. I can take a Mazda, Toyota and Honda apart with a 8, 10, 12 and 14 mm socket. Hey US domestics, please learn from this.
5. And hour to change a belt? I took a 13B engine block apart in about an hour. If it wasn't for the flywheel and vacuum hoses I'd had the whole damn thing done in 2 but it took longer because the parts are 20 years old.
Other then Honda I think the Japanese make the overall easiest cars to work on. Sure you can find a few things they do that's half ass backwards. But most of the time it's easy compared to German or US cars. This isn't just a Toyota thing.
Oh, my Miata's A/C compressor, alternator and PS pump all have over 200K on them. I don't see the big deal.
Quote from: Onslaught on July 13, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
4. Most bolts are 10mm on Japanese cars. I can take a Mazda, Toyota and Honda apart with a 8, 10, 12 and 14 mm socket. Hey US domestics, please learn from this.
Everything I've fooled around with on the LR2 (really just exploring) is bolted on with a 10mm.
My American-made outboard boat engine, which actually needs to be unscrewed every so often as it's a carbed 2 stroke. Holy shit. Figuring out the right socket is half the time it takes to do anything.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 13, 2012, 04:48:41 PM
Toyota has a good manufacturing process. They are good a building shit, but they don't build good shit.
They have some good shit in the lineup. HiLux is a pretty cool truck. Land Cruiser is a beast and always has been. 4Runner has always been a great midsize SUV. There's something cool about the FJ, even though it's not for me. In the past few years, SC430 and MR-2 Spyder were both awesome IMO. Their cars are generally vanilla, but when they put their mind to building something cool, they can.
If they updated the MR-2 Spyder and re-released it I'd scoop one up when the LR2 is paid off.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 06:35:05 PM
Everything I've fooled around with on the LR2 (really just exploring) is bolted on with a 10mm.
My American-made outboard boat engine, which actually needs to be unscrewed every so often as it's a carbed 2 stroke. Holy shit. Figuring out the right socket is half the time it takes to do anything.
Yea, the Euro stuff isn't that bad but I'm not a fan of the torx head bolts that the Germans love so much.
The Domestics have got much better then in the past but still need to make up their minds on if they want to use metric or standard. I've got to take half my tool box over just to take a door off a Chrysler. It's nuts.
Quote from: Onslaught on July 13, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
Oh, my Miata's A/C compressor, alternator and PS pump all have over 200K on them. I don't see the big deal.
The "big deal" is domestics don't last that long. Seriously, the OEM fuelpumps on the gen1 Taurus conked out at almost exaclty 80,000 miles on the dot. Alternators and waterpumps were almost as bad.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 06:38:19 PM
but when they put their mind to building something cool, they can.
TOYOBARU. :lol:
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 06:38:19 PM
They have some good shit in the lineup. HiLux is a pretty cool truck. Land Cruiser is a beast and always has been. 4Runner has always been a great midsize SUV. There's something cool about the FJ, even though it's not for me. In the past few years, SC430 and MR-2 Spyder were both awesome IMO. Their cars are generally vanilla, but when they put their mind to building something cool, they can.
If they updated the MR-2 Spyder and re-released it I'd scoop one up when the LR2 is paid off.
Hilux and Tacoma are pretty much the same (save for a Diesel option).
Their Vanilla cars are just so well engineered....everything is done in such a manner that shows that real thought was put into the details of how their product comes together, something other manufacutrers don't seem to obsess over.
Quote from: Rupert on July 13, 2012, 05:40:27 PM
You could not spend three days of posts freaking out then deciding which shitty mechanic to take it to then bitching about the job they do then saying how wonderful the car is, even after all that. ;)
I took it to the dealer.
This thing is a giant :facepalm:
You're right, no other OEM don't put any thought in how things go together...
Quote from: MrH on July 13, 2012, 08:12:17 PM
This thing is a giant :facepalm:
You're right, no other OEM don't put any thought in how things go together...
That's not what I mean.
I'm just admiring the thoughtfulness that Toyota put into their product. (Anecdotal, based upon what I have personally experienced)
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 08:05:39 PM
Hilux and Tacoma are pretty much the same (save for a Diesel option).
How are they the same? For starters, they're differently sized. Hilux is smaller. The Hilux also has a fully boxed frame - and springs, suspensions are completely different on the HiLux. It can handle double the payload (though it can tow less than the Taco). Also, have you seen the interior of the '12 Hilux? It's head over heels better than the Taco. Hilux is also built on the IMV platform. I don't believe the Taco is.
QuoteTheir Vanilla cars are just so well engineered....everything is done in such a manner that shows that real thought was put into the details of how their product comes together, something other manufacutrers don't seem to obsess over.
Huh? What other cars have you driven to make you think Toyota is superior? Toyota makes perfectly fine mainstream cars but "attention to detail" isn't one of their strong suits. If you read reviews, they're universally panned by automotive journalists for poor fit and finish. The Lexus division is better in this regard but I find the mainstream brand's product to be rather thrown together, haphazardly designed and cheap-feeling. As I mentioned, there are huge exceptions to this, but Toyota's cars are actually somewhat under-engineered for my taste.
I thought the Hilux and Taco were just badge jobs, but I am wrong.
The
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 08:37:25 PM
How are they the same? For starters, they're differently sized. Hilux is smaller. The Hilux also has a fully boxed frame - and springs, suspensions are completely different on the HiLux. Also, have you seen the interior of the '12 Hilux? It's head over heels better than the Taco. Hilux is also built on the IMV platform. I don't believe the Taco is.
Huh? What other cars have you driven to make you think Toyota is superior? Toyota makes perfectly fine mainstream cars but "attention to detail" isn't one of their strong suits. If you read reviews, they're universally panned by automotive journalists for poor fit and finish. The Lexus division is better in this regard but I find the mainstream brand's product to be rather thrown together, haphazardly designed and cheap-feeling. As I mentioned, there are huge exceptions to this, but Toyota's cars are actually somewhat under-engineered for my taste.
Ignore the interior. I'm talking about how their cars are put together; mechanicals. How easy they are to work on....how elegantly simple they're made. Yeah, they're a bore to drive, but they do boring so very well.
In the last 5 years Toyota has fallen off in interior quality if you ask me. And I can pull a front bumper cover off with just my hands on a most of their normal cars like the Camry or Corolla. Trust me, I've done it before.
I'm not saying they make crap. But they don't put out as much good stuff as they have in the past.
I still think they make good trucks and SUV's.
I like how Toyota thinks it's a good thing to make the gas and brake pedals hyper-sensitive on/off switches. Modulation not required.
Quote from: Onslaught on July 13, 2012, 08:41:30 PM
In the last 5 years Toyota has fallen off in interior quality if you as me. And I can pull a front bumper cover off with just my hands on a most of their normal cars like the Camry or Corolla. Trust me, I've done it before.
I'm not saying they make crap. But they don't put out as much good stuff as they have in the past.
I still think they make good trucks and SUV's.
I have noticed that too. Quality of my car isn't as good as either of my brother's Corollas. And interior of my car is better than my brother's 2011 Camry (pre facelift).
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 08:43:33 PM
I have noticed that too. Quality of my car isn't as good as either of my brother's Corollas. And interior of my car is better than my brother's 2011 Camry (pre facelift).
The new Camry seems to have remedied the issue somewhat. Hopefully they're on the right track. I had a Rav4 as a rental last year and it was horrifically craptacular in the interior department. More rattles than I've ever heard in any other car that wasn't a taxi.
Quote from: MrH on July 13, 2012, 08:12:17 PM
This thing is a giant :facepalm:
You're right, no other OEM don't put any thought in how things go together...
I dont think he said that...
And in any case, some OEMs don't :huh:
Toyotaness (noun): An intangible attribute that makes owners praise the reliability of even an unreliable car.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 02:58:29 PM
Read the issues I had. Most of them are wear related or are issue that are known with the car. Not uncommon with any car, and the car has always run like a champ.
Gas tank - previous owner related.
Cooling fan - blown fuse
airbag light - bad clockspring; Toyota should do something about this, but it too is a very simple fix
alternator - these things break. 80K for the stock unit is par for the course
That's about it.
Alternators don't generally burn out without cause- that may be related to your other electrical gremlins.
In fact, I've never replaced an alternator on a newer vehicle. The Civic has 160,00 miles on it, on its fourth set of brakes, second clutch, and second set of front wheel bearings and struts/shocks. Fourth set of tires too.
Same alternator.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 13, 2012, 10:03:57 PM
Alternators don't generally burn out without cause- that may be related to your other electrical gremlins.
In fact, I've never replaced an alternator on a newer vehicle. The Civic has 160,00 miles on it, on its fourth set of brakes, second clutch, and second set of front wheel bearings and struts/shocks. Fourth set of tires too.
Same alternator.
Voltage regulator died, a known issue with 2007 MY cars. When I bought the car, I knew it was bad, but it was sort of half-working (battery light would only come on sometimes) but then it finally stopped working correctly altogether.
Alternators def die, if they didnt rebuilt alternator shops wouldn't exist.
It didn't die in the manner that most alternators do (burn out and stop charging) but the voltage regulator died. There's a few guys on the Yaris forums that take it apart and fix them (there is literally just corrosion on the inside of the unit at the voltage regulator; it just needs cleaned out) but I just opted to buy one from a newer model year Yaris. (dealer part is $600, OEM won't work right).
Quote from: Rupert on July 13, 2012, 04:43:38 PM
Then again, what don't you state as "fact"?
:lol:
This is decent Internetry.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 13, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
Alternators def die, if they didnt rebuilt alternator shops wouldn't exist.
yes, but usually something causes them to fail: or they spin out the front bearing at 200,000 miles.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 10:19:02 PM
It didn't die in the manner that most alternators do (burn out and stop charging) but the voltage regulator died. There's a few guys on the Yaris forums that take it apart and fix them (there is literally just corrosion on the inside of the unit at the voltage regulator; it just needs cleaned out) but I just opted to buy one from a newer model year Yaris. (dealer part is $600, OEM won't work right).
Its a $600 fucking alternator?
Jesus Christ man.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 13, 2012, 10:55:13 PM
Its a $600 fucking alternator?
Jesus Christ man.
$225 OEM unit.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 10:56:15 PM
$225 OEM unit.
OK, you're going to have to explain this one to me: The dealer sells a non-OEM part for three times the price? Since when do dealwers sell non-OEM parts?
Either something about your terminology is wrong, or this is one screwy setup.
I meant it's $225 for a 3rd party OEM spec part.
But it never works right. Causes the battery light to stay on.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2012, 11:01:46 PM
I meant it's $225 for a 3rd party OEM spec part.
But it never works right. Causes the battery light to stay on.
So, $225 for an alternator that they know is bad, or $600 for one that works.
OK, so remind me again why this car is so great.
Why would anyone buy a car with a battery light on in the first place?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 11:40:04 PM
Why would anyone buy a car with a battery light on in the first place?
:popcorn:
Especially if they have all the money they can want via financing?
Quote from: TurboDan on July 13, 2012, 11:40:04 PM
Why would anyone buy a car with a battery light on in the first place?
I've done so. Of course, that was on cars that cost marginally more than $600 for the whole thing, and a rebuilt alternator was $30...
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 13, 2012, 08:41:57 PM
I like how Toyota thinks it's a good thing to make the gas and brake pedals hyper-sensitive on/off switches. Modulation not required.
amen bro. Whiplash every time I drive the van. I guess it feels "more powerful" to have the gas pedal go to 20% engine power with the pedal 1% down.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 14, 2012, 01:02:39 AM
I've done so. Of course, that was on cars that cost marginally more than $600 for the whole thing, and a rebuilt alternator was $30...
The unit I bought was only $75.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2012, 11:50:22 PM
:popcorn:
I don't really have to justify anything to them. I can still call it a good car, and seems like the trouble areas have been addressed....so hopefully nothing else will happen.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 13, 2012, 04:41:40 PM
Yeah, what I stated was fact - Toyota changed the world of manufacturing and pretty much most anything manufactured today has benefited for the better.
Yes, and Walmart changed retail forever. They study both Walmart and Toyota in Boring Business Practices (supply chain management) classes all over the country.
Doesn't mean I enjoy setting foot in one if I ever have to.
Toyota is a great business and they make a great appliance. Doesn't mean they make a great car.
Quote from: ifcar on July 13, 2012, 09:30:06 PM
Toyotaness (noun): An intangible attribute that makes owners praise the reliability of even an unreliable car.
:lol:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 14, 2012, 07:00:36 AM
amen bro. Whiplash every time I drive the van. I guess it feels "more powerful" to have the gas pedal go to 20% engine power with the pedal 1% down.
Yup, that's exactly what it is. It's built for test drives, so people think they're getting a much more powerful car than they are.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 14, 2012, 07:17:09 AM
I can still call it a good car, and seems like the trouble areas have been addressed....so hopefully nothing else will happen.
I recall standing in my driveway saying that right after I fixed a coolant leak in the Saab a week after I bought it. Ah, memories. :devil:
Quote from: TurboDan on July 14, 2012, 11:28:48 AM
I recall standing in my driveway saying that right after I fixed a coolant leak in the Saab a week after I bought it. Ah, memories. :devil:
Hey, I just drove a RAV4 and I didn't feel like I was going to flip over. :devil:
Quote from: Raza on July 14, 2012, 09:16:01 AM
Yup, that's exactly what it is. It's built for test drives, so people think they're getting a much more powerful car than they are.
Betcha we could get rich with a kit that fixes the gas pedal so it modulates better at the top..
Toyota: my friends' new Sienna has the blue tooth ipod thing. If you try to activate it while driving, it completely locks out the stereo system due to "safety". In order to use the stereo again, you have to shut the vehicle off, then back on.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 14, 2012, 11:35:15 AM
Toyota: my friends' new Sienna has the blue tooth ipod thing. If you try to activate it while driving, it completely locks out the stereo system due to "safety". In order to use the stereo again, you have to shut the vehicle off, then back on.
otherwise known as the "lawsuit avoidance stereo"
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 14, 2012, 11:32:08 AM
Betcha we could get rich with a kit that fixes the gas pedal so it modulates better at the top..
Maybe. I couldn't make it, though. I could market it. :praise:
Quote from: Raza on July 14, 2012, 10:16:45 PM
Maybe. I couldn't make it, though. I could market it. :praise:
That's kinda the whole problem with America today... :devil: :lol:
(And I'm part of it. I basically could just write a news story about it once someone else makes it and markets it...)
I feel that Toyota used to have an advantage about 15-20 years ago. Now? Not really. Mostly everything built these days is going to last a long time just based on better building technology over that time. The biggest issues I see for newer cars is the electrical. Almost everything is power and it's just been my experience with older cars that manufacturers across the board have issues maintaining electrical systems as a car ages.
Toyota is a brand for people who want toasters on wheels. I think that point has been made very clear over time. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will look somewhere else.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
I feel that Toyota used to have an advantage about 15-20 years ago. Now? Not really. Mostly everything built these days is going to last a long time just based on better building technology over that time. The biggest issues I see for newer cars is the electrical. Almost everything is power and it's just been my experience with older cars that manufacturers across the board have issues maintaining electrical systems as a car ages.
Toyota is a brand for people who want toasters on wheels. I think that point has been made very clear over time. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will look somewhere else.
I'd say over 50% of the population wants a car that is going to give them a relatively trouble free experience. I'm one of them. However it's also pretty insulting that assuming that group doesn't enjoy driving. Because people like us buy more than one car and the other usually ends up being something we enjoy.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
I feel that Toyota used to have an advantage about 15-20 years ago. Now? Not really. Mostly everything built these days is going to last a long time just based on better building technology over that time. The biggest issues I see for newer cars is the electrical. Almost everything is power and it's just been my experience with older cars that manufacturers across the board have issues maintaining electrical systems as a car ages.
Toyota is a brand for people who want toasters on wheels. I think that point has been made very clear over time. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will look somewhere else.
It's not just the power stuff that gets me. It's what they make the cars out of too. To keep the weight down for MPG they're using lot's of plastics in places that metal was used in the past. Things like radiator supports and things like that. These plastics go from cold to very hot and back down to cold again over and over and over every time you drive the car. Over the years I've noticed that they get brittle and start to snap.
Yup. Stuff just ain't built like it used to be... but I don't mind not going back to the land yachts...
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
I feel that Toyota used to have an advantage about 15-20 years ago. Now? Not really. Mostly everything built these days is going to last a long time just based on better building technology over that time. The biggest issues I see for newer cars is the electrical. Almost everything is power and it's just been my experience with older cars that manufacturers across the board have issues maintaining electrical systems as a car ages.
Toyota is a brand for people who want toasters on wheels. I think that point has been made very clear over time. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will look somewhere else.
When done right, today's automotive electrical systems (just as their mechanical systems) are more durable and reliable than in times past. Take EFI - given not a lot of time and it turned out to not only be vastly better performing but also vastly more durable and reliable.
Quote from: Raza on July 14, 2012, 09:08:34 AM
Yes, and Walmart changed retail forever. They study both Walmart and Toyota in Boring Business Practices (supply chain management) classes all over the country.
Doesn't mean I enjoy setting foot in one if I ever have to.
Toyota is a great business and they make a great appliance. Doesn't mean they make a great car.
Toyota makes the exact car that it wants to; they most certainly make a great car.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 15, 2012, 09:39:07 AM
Toyota makes the exact car that it wants to; they most certainly make a great car.
You can say that about any manufacturer and it similarly means nothing. Yugo made the car they wanted to.
A mechanically operated diesel engine is the only thing that will run once the terrorists start using EMP
bombs.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2012, 09:50:07 AM
A mechanically operated diesel engine is the only thing that will run once the terrorists start using EMP
bombs.
I'll die without my game systems anyway.
Quote from: Raza on July 15, 2012, 09:47:34 AM
You can say that about any manufacturer and it similarly means nothing. Yugo made the car they wanted to.
Nah, Yugo wanted its car to run well so people wouldn't have stopped buying them.
Quote from: Onslaught on July 15, 2012, 11:59:05 AM
I'll die without my game systems anyway.
Parcheesi?
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1748842#msg1748842 date=1342278514
Toyota is a great business and they make a great appliance. Doesn't mean they make a great car.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RRZ0EMb1PoE/TUIQuj6ozOI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/rZr8AnA9OVM/s1600/lexus_lfa_10_08.jpg)
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2011/04/scion-FR-S-concept-01.jpg)
(http://www.mr2spyderforum.com/mr2pictures/redmr2spyder2.jpg) <- wow, forgot how ugly that thing was
And of course one of the greatest and best performing vehicle of all time
(http://www.drivearabia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2012-Toyota-Camry-Global-Version-4-450x337.jpg)
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
Toyota is a brand for people who want toasters on wheels. I think that point has been made very clear over time. Anyone who actually enjoys driving will look somewhere else.
Not sure if you are serious if this was sarcasm?
Quote from: Raza on July 15, 2012, 09:47:34 AM
You can say that about any manufacturer and it similarly means nothing. Yugo made the car they wanted to.
Many manufacturers are not making the cars they want. They are making the cars they can afford to and are allowed to by the market.
Quote from: Xer0 on July 15, 2012, 12:24:32 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RRZ0EMb1PoE/TUIQuj6ozOI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/rZr8AnA9OVM/s1600/lexus_lfa_10_08.jpg)
Costs $350,000
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2011/04/scion-FR-S-concept-01.jpg)
They didn't build it. Added to list of all manufacturers who built fantastic concepts, but never had the balls to build them.
If it weren't for Lexus, I'd just absolutely loathe Toyota. Lexus is one of my favorite brands.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on July 15, 2012, 12:33:49 PM
Not sure if you are serious if this was sarcasm?
Totally serious. I exaggerate a bit, but honestly, Toyotas leave a lot to be desired from a driving enjoyment standpoint compared to their competition.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
They didn't build it. Added to list of all manufacturers who built fantastic concepts, but never had the balls to build them.
Umm, what is this then?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uRaFlmACVZM/TtGqwxitCKI/AAAAAAAF6mU/iC63lsbIUUE/s800/Toyota-GT-86-Carscoop26.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/2013-scion-fr-s-2d.jpg)
Doesn't look
exactly like the concept, but few production cars do.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
If it weren't for Lexus, I'd just absolutely loathe Toyota. Lexus is one of my favorite brands.
Huh? You hate Toyota but love Lexus? What cognitive dissonance allows this?
Quote from: MX793 on July 15, 2012, 02:51:41 PM
Umm, what is this then?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uRaFlmACVZM/TtGqwxitCKI/AAAAAAAF6mU/iC63lsbIUUE/s800/Toyota-GT-86-Carscoop26.jpg)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/2013-scion-fr-s-2d.jpg)
Doesn't look exactly like the concept, but few production cars do.
Wow, talk about a lazy rebadge job. They could at least try to make them look A LITTLE BIT different!!!! :rage:
Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
Wow, talk about a lazy rebadge job. They could at least try to make them look A LITTLE BIT different!!!! :rage:
They're not supposed to look different. Scion doesn't exist outside of North America, so the top one is the one Toyota sells in Europe and Japan (and probably other places), and the bottom one is the one Toyota sells in America as a Scion. No different than a Vauxhall Astra sold in the UK and an Opel Astra sold in the mainland.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 14, 2012, 07:14:02 AM
The unit I bought was only $75.
Well, that makes a lot more sense.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2012, 09:50:07 AM
A mechanically operated diesel engine is the only thing that will run once the terrorists start using EMP
bombs.
You have to get a military issued fuel pump and injector.
But, the chance of a terrorist organiozation being able to build a large deffect area EMP are zero to none: basically if they could, they'd also be at the point where they were building thier own fusion bombs anyways.
Quote from: MX793 on July 15, 2012, 06:13:43 PM
They're not supposed to look different. Scion doesn't exist outside of North America, so the top one is the one Toyota sells in Europe and Japan (and probably other places), and the bottom one is the one Toyota sells in America as a Scion. No different than a Vauxhall Astra sold in the UK and an Opel Astra sold in the mainland.
Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.
Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either. It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.
(http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz/ns/subaru_brz_f34_ns_31312_717.jpg)
.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uRaFlmACVZM/TtGqwxitCKI/AAAAAAAF6mU/iC63lsbIUUE/s800/Toyota-GT-86-Carscoop26.jpg)
.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/2013-scion-fr-s-2d.jpg)
Quote from: Xer0 on July 15, 2012, 12:24:32 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RRZ0EMb1PoE/TUIQuj6ozOI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/rZr8AnA9OVM/s1600/lexus_lfa_10_08.jpg)
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2011/04/scion-FR-S-concept-01.jpg)
(http://www.mr2spyderforum.com/mr2pictures/redmr2spyder2.jpg) <- wow, forgot how ugly that thing was
And of course one of the greatest and best performing vehicle of all time
(http://www.drivearabia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2012-Toyota-Camry-Global-Version-4-450x337.jpg)
They've done a few great ones, true. But as a whole, they excel at appealing to the fattest part of the bell curve, which is not great.
...like Volkswagen doesn't?
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 09:15:23 PM
...like Volkswagen doesn't?
Not until like one model year ago, at least...
At the end of the day, though, even the watered down Passat and Jetta are more "driver's cars" than the Camry and Corolla. It's a shame that "Toyotaness" has rubbed off on them to the point where we don't even get the real Passat anymore. I loved my B5.5, but I don't think I'd buy the current one.
Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".
Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 15, 2012, 10:02:34 PM
Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.
The general public sucks, and you know it.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 10:00:41 PM
Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.
Sad but true. Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible. You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses. The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AM
Sad but true. Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible. You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses. The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.
Are you guys on some sort of automotive judgment council? How is your definition of "best" any better than that of the dude driving a Camry, especially FOR that dude? "Oh you want a Camry, you must not know what you want :rolleyes:" Get over yourself guys.
Even w/Toyota's late 90s cost cutting they are still ahead of the game
for what the avg person wants. People say companies like Hyundai & Ford have caught up.... Hyundai, maybe, but Ford botched their first crop of DSGs, for example. We don't know the long term reliability of either of their new direct injection systems. For someone who just wants a device to get them from point A to B with minimum fuss, Toyota + Honda make good products. Every car isn't meant to be thrilling and everyone doesn't want a car that thrills. And in any case, if you want excitement there are plenty of choices. Get over it
Most of the time enthusiasts come off as judgmental assholes. And car guys can be on the top of that list. Nothing wrong with Toyota for 99% of the people in the world.
I'm just a guilty of this too however.
I think there are some cases where its warranted (i.e. Cougs asserting a Camry V6 should be the default enthusiast's choice.... actually that is exactly what folks are doing here, but in reverse). But Toyotas are not bad cars. Something not being "fun to drive" does not make it a bad car. Maybe a bad car for us, but not a bad car period.
Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:21:02 PM
Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.
Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either. It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.
(http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz/ns/subaru_brz_f34_ns_31312_717.jpg)
.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uRaFlmACVZM/TtGqwxitCKI/AAAAAAAF6mU/iC63lsbIUUE/s800/Toyota-GT-86-Carscoop26.jpg)
.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/2013-scion-fr-s-2d.jpg)
It's a relatively low volume, niche vehicle that was a joint development? What were you expecting? :confused:
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AM
Sad but true. Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible. You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses. The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.
For what the average (non enthusiast) wants, they do make the absolute best cars.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 09:15:23 PM
...like Volkswagen doesn't?
Irrelevant to the discussion and irrelevant to what I said.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 10:00:41 PM
Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".
Still irrelevant. Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 15, 2012, 10:02:34 PM
Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.
By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were. The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true. I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.
It's how business is done. You have to sell products. I'm not upset at manufacturers making boring cars--it's perfect if they do that to sell the rest of us fun ones. It seems like Toyota is getting their balls back with the FRS. Hopefully it doesn't suffer the same ignominious fate as the MR2 Spyder did.
So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?
Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2012, 11:09:54 AM
By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were. The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true. I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it.
I'm not confused by that, I'm confused by cars that aren't catered to enthusiasts being written off as
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AMmediocre crap
not just for enthusiasts, but in general. Sure the Corolla/Camry are not thrilling, but are they crap? Thats a bit hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? People seem to have a problem reconciling the fact that their tastes aren't the final word.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 11:58:46 AM
So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?
If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.
Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG :huh:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 12:15:40 PM
If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.
Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG :huh:
Ooh, strawmanism on "only measure;" thus, logic forbids comment.
And I almost hate to do this. Also, don't brag about MPG; we've been here before (and not because it often sets one up for a loss). Presented and normalized by way of both being C&D tests (= same (and detailed) metrics):
2012 Toyota Camry SE V6 (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-camry-se-v6-road-test-review)
0-60: 5.8 sec
0-100: 14.1 sec
1/4 mile: 14.3 sec @ 101 mph
5-60: 6.1 sec
30-50: 3.4 sec
50-70: 3.7 sec
Skidpad: .83g
70-0: 173 ft
Test MPG: 25 MPG
2012 BMW 328i (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd-comparison-tests.pdf):
0-60: 5.6 sec
0-100: 14.7 sec
1/4 mile: 14.2 sec @ 98 mph
5-60: 6.5 sec
30-50: 3.5 sec
50-70: 3.9 sec
Skidpad: .87g
70-0: 191 ft
Test MPG: 21 mpg
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1749745#msg1749745 date=1342458410
Still irrelevant. Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?
They both cater to very large markets with very varying clientele. There is nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.
Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic.
Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
Wow, talk about a lazy rebadge job. They could at least try to make them look A LITTLE BIT different!!!! :rage:
The fact that they look different at all is a huge failure.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1749808#msg1749808 date=1342467799
Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic.
You are talking about a guy who derives a car's driving enjoyment solely to magazine straight line performance times.
And lol @ cherry picking the worst times possible. 3 is good for high 13s-very low 14s, period; Camry @ 14.2 is easily its best time yet and it generally does mid to high 14s. Plus for the enthusiast many options are available for the 3 owner to make their car faster for cheap (a 40HP reflash = $500), it comes in stickshift, yadda yadda. The argument that the Camry is a logical choice for an enthusiast is bogus...
again, if this were true, why didn't you buy one?
Stop feeding you troll you idiot. IIRC, you're one of the ones that tells me that. He does the exact same cherry picking of numbers with the Mustang....but I digress.
So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?
Quote from: AltinD on July 16, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?
Scion and Subaru.
Quote from: AltinD on July 16, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?
And the Subaru. Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ.
I knew about the Subaru, but I thought the Scion version was in addition and not replacing the Toyota one.
Quote from: SVT666 on July 16, 2012, 02:45:50 PM
Stop feeding you troll you idiot. IIRC, you're one of the ones that tells me that. He does the exact same cherry picking of numbers with the Mustang....but I digress.
Youre right, my apologies.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 02:20:04 PM
You are talking about a guy who derives a car's driving enjoyment solely to magazine straight line performance times.
And lol @ cherry picking the worst times possible. 3 is good for high 13s-very low 14s, period; Camry @ 14.2 is easily its best time yet and it generally does mid to high 14s. Plus for the enthusiast many options are available for the 3 owner to make their car faster for cheap (a 40HP reflash = $500), it comes in stickshift, yadda yadda. The argument that the Camry is a logical choice for an enthusiast is bogus... again, if this were true, why didn't you buy one?
No cherry picking; same mag, same plethora of detailed test criteria; all under the umbrella of context that is the Camry's a moderate power weight ratio advantage (12.7 lb/hp vs. 14.5 lb/hp) owing to its ~150 lb weight loss for MY2012. Now balance that against the swap of FWD for the 328i's power band advantage, and there you go; the Camry hangs and then starts to walk after ~100 mph.
"Logical choice?" You're terrible with the strawmanism.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 13, 2012, 04:48:41 PM
Toyota has a good manufacturing process. They are good a building shit, but they don't build good shit.
I lol'd. :lol:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2012, 10:06:22 PM
The general public sucks, and you know it.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Stop%20Hating/2012-04-13110202.jpg)
No.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 03:08:54 PM
No cherry picking; same mag, same plethora of detailed test criteria; all under the umbrella of context that is the Camry's a moderate power weight ratio advantage (12.7 lb/hp vs. 14.5 lb/hp) owing to its ~150 lb weight loss for MY2012. Now balance that against the swap of FWD for the 328i's power band advantage, and there you go; the Camry hangs and then starts to walk after ~100 mph.
"Logical choice?" You're terrible with the strawmanism.
Whens the last time youve been close to, let alone over 100 MPH?
And again, your G is within that contingent of cars the Camry can hang with in a straight line. So whyd you get the G?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Whens the last time youve been close to, let alone over 100 MPH?
And again, your G is within that contingent of cars the Camry can hang with in a straight line. So whyd you get the G?
Stop it! Geezus.
Quote from: AltinD on July 16, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?
Yes, the Scion, which is essentially the same car is the only one sold here.
Quote from: AltinD on July 16, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?
correct. Toyota should get out of the scion business, in my opinion..
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 03:08:54 PM
... the Camry's a moderate power weight ratio advantage (12.7 lb/hp vs. 14.5 lb/hp) owing to its ~150 lb weight loss for MY2012. Now balance that against the swap of FWD for the 328i's power band advantage, and there you go; the Camry hangs and then starts to walk after ~100 mph.
head-to-head on a curvy track? Cuz we all know that all roads are perfectly straight.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Whens the last time youve been close to, let alone over 100 MPH?
And again, your G is within that contingent of cars the Camry can hang with in a straight line. So whyd you get the G?
I've already educated you on what it means when cars drag race (in simple terms of car lengths); I will not repeat it.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 07:26:25 PM
I've already educated you on what it means when cars drag race (in simple terms of car lengths); I will not repeat it.
If a Fleetwood drag races a Fiat, how many car lengths does he win by?
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1749561#msg1749561 date=1342408054
They've done a few great ones, true. But as a whole, they excel at appealing to the fattest part of the bell curve, which is not great.
I'd argue that they have done more then a few. Every company has to balance making money and keeping customers with letting engineers do crazy cool shit. Hell, the cool, crazy shit of today is usually powering tomorrow's boring appliance.
What did I tell you guys about engaging? You bring it on yourselves.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 16, 2012, 08:03:28 PM
If a Fleetwood drag races a Fiat, how many car lengths does he win by?
A 2012 Camry is 189.2" long. A 2012 G37 sedan is 187.9" long
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 05:56:38 AM
Are you guys on some sort of automotive judgment council? How is your definition of "best" any better than that of the dude driving a Camry, especially FOR that dude? "Oh you want a Camry, you must not know what you want :rolleyes:" Get over yourself guys.
How do you know about the Automotive Judgement Council? Only AJC members are allowed to know about it and we are all sworn to secrecy!
:lol:
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
How do you know about the Automotive Judgement Council? Only AJC members are allowed to know about it and we are all sworn to secrecy!
:lol:
And we're all white. Who talked?
Quote from: Onslaught on July 16, 2012, 10:00:51 PM
And we're all white. Who talked?
SHHHHHHH!!!!! Nobody outside the AJC is supposed to know about that, either!
BTW, see you at next week's AJC meeting.
i blame cougs... ;)
:popcorn:
Sent from my Asus Transformer with accessory Keyboard Dock
Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 11:58:46 AM
So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?
There hasn't been a sub-$25K V6 Camry since 2010.
($24,565 for a 2010 Camry LE V6 before options and destination charges).
Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:21:02 PM
Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.
Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either. It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.
(http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz/ns/subaru_brz_f34_ns_31312_717.jpg)
.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uRaFlmACVZM/TtGqwxitCKI/AAAAAAAF6mU/iC63lsbIUUE/s800/Toyota-GT-86-Carscoop26.jpg)
.
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/04/2013-scion-fr-s-2d.jpg)
Quote from: MrH on July 16, 2012, 08:46:54 AM
It's a relatively low volume, niche vehicle that was a joint development? What were you expecting? :confused:
I was expecting at least some differentiation between the Toyota/Scion and the Subaru. It doesn't cost much to make a different front clip, considering they are all bolt-on components requiring no structural changes. Seriously, has Toyota sunk so low as to adopt 1980s GM-style badge engineering?
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 10:33:03 PM
I was expecting at least some differentiation between the Toyota/Scion and the Subaru. It doesn't cost much to make a different front clip, considering they are all bolt-on components requiring no structural changes. Seriously, has Toyota sunk so low as to adopt 1980s GM-style badge engineering?
Well, that's a far cry from a Chevy Citation though, my friend.
I think they should have just sold as a Toyota and skipped the Scion/Subu versions.
Quote from: WookieOnRitalin on July 15, 2012, 02:48:14 PM
Totally serious. I exaggerate a bit, but honestly, Toyotas leave a lot to be desired from a driving enjoyment standpoint compared to their competition.
Fair enough, but that's a bit different from what you said before.
Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 10:33:03 PM
I was expecting at least some differentiation between the Toyota/Scion and the Subaru. It doesn't cost much to make a different front clip, considering they are all bolt-on components requiring no structural changes. Seriously, has Toyota sunk so low as to adopt 1980s GM-style badge engineering?
:facepalm:
Well...
1. They do have different front clips. The two pictures are in the post you quoted! I'm questioning if you even know what you're saying when you say "front clip". Intake is all different, fog lights are different. The entire shape is different.
2. You have zero clue what differentiating things actually costs. It has nothing to do with the difference in assembly time, and everything to do with tooling costs. Tools costs millions of dollars. Money that you have to pay up front before you ever make a dime on a vehicle. OEMs have very strict capital spending plans and requirements. If they can't pay for that tool, plus the cost of capital for it for the first few years until you can pay it back, they won't do it.
The subaru is relatively low volume compared to the Toyota and Scion version. They're not going to dump a ton of money into tools to make minor changes most customers won't care about. They need the differentiation between the drive models to drive enough additional sales to pay for the additional tools. You can't reskin the entire damn thing with that kind of volume and ever expect to gain enough sales to cover the enormous tooling bill.
The only difference in the Subaru version should be AWD and a roof rack.
Quote from: Rupert on July 16, 2012, 11:18:56 PM
I think they should have just sold as a Toyota and skipped the Scion/Subu versions.
Well, they couldn't skip the Subaru version. It was a joint development project with them. Subaru did all the engineering and manufacturing, they had to get a vehicle out of the whole thing.
If they had badged this as a Toyota, that would be the death of Scion. Their lineup is weak, and taking the most sporty thing Toyota has made in years and passing up badging it as a Scion would mean Toyota has given up on it as a brand. This is the exact vehicle Scion was designed for.
Quote from: MrH on July 17, 2012, 07:45:40 AM
Well, they couldn't skip the Subaru version. It was a joint development project with them. Subaru did all the engineering and manufacturing, they had to get a vehicle out of the whole thing.
If they had badged this as a Toyota, that would be the death of Scion. Their lineup is weak, and taking the most sporty thing Toyota has made in years and passing up badging it as a Scion would mean Toyota has given up on it as a brand. This is the exact vehicle Scion was designed for.
Well....Scion should die. No point in weakening a good product to attempt to save a dying brand.
Quote from: MrH on July 17, 2012, 07:45:40 AM
This is the exact vehicle Scion was designed for.
I'm not sure I agree. The point of Scion was to bring in young people with cheap, funky cars who would later graduate into bigger, more expensive Toyotas. There's nowhere else in the Toyota lineup for an FR-S owner to go, and no part of that product that would make them in any way attached to Toyota for, say, their wife's minivan.
The iQ is more of a perfect-fit car than the FR-S, really.
Quote from: ifcar on July 17, 2012, 08:12:02 AM
I'm not sure I agree. The point of Scion was to bring in young people with cheap, funky cars who would later graduate into bigger, more expensive Toyotas. There's nowhere else in the Toyota lineup for an FR-S owner to go, and no part of that product that would make them in any way attached to Toyota for, say, their wife's minivan.
The iQ is more of a perfect-fit car than the FR-S, really.
I agree. And at the price point, it's a turn-off for a lot of people who would be buying their own cars. Sure, if you're in high school or college and your parents are footing the bill, a $25,000+ car isn't a lot of money, but 25 grand isn't exactly what people find in their couches post-college in a shitty economy.
25K for a car is a ton of money for the avg family, even for dad
I agree though that it should have just been the Celica, with a beefier 6 cylinder version (maybe with the V6 from the IS) being the Supra
Scion needs to go back to its "roots"... its lineup went from cool, funky and hip to stodgy and "GM like" in one generation. Really they should market all their compact cars (including the Yaris) under the Scion umbrella, but make them funky
Quote from: ifcar on July 17, 2012, 08:12:02 AM
There's nowhere else in the Toyota lineup for an FR-S owner to go,
(http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezflow_site/storage_RT_NEW/storage/images/highlights/road-tests/more-road-tests/2011-lexus-lfa/1877396-1-eng-US/2011-lexus-lfa.jpg)
:devil:
(I know, I know, they are all sold out)
Quote from: MrH on July 17, 2012, 07:24:37 AM
:facepalm:
Well...
1. They do have different front clips. The two pictures are in the post you quoted! I'm questioning if you even know what you're saying when you say "front clip". Intake is all different, fog lights are different. The entire shape is different.
2. You have zero clue what differentiating things actually costs. It has nothing to do with the difference in assembly time, and everything to do with tooling costs. Tools costs millions of dollars. Money that you have to pay up front before you ever make a dime on a vehicle. OEMs have very strict capital spending plans and requirements. If they can't pay for that tool, plus the cost of capital for it for the first few years until you can pay it back, they won't do it.
The subaru is relatively low volume compared to the Toyota and Scion version. They're not going to dump a ton of money into tools to make minor changes most customers won't care about. They need the differentiation between the drive models to drive enough additional sales to pay for the additional tools. You can't reskin the entire damn thing with that kind of volume and ever expect to gain enough sales to cover the enormous tooling bill.
Different headlights? They look EXACTLY the same! The front fenders and hood also appear to be identical. These bolt-on pieces are fairly cheap to produce, so Toyota/Subaru could have easily given the nose of the car a more individual look. It's done all the time.
Prime example.......
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2001-volkswagen-golf-gl_100028926_m.jpg)
(http://www.lotpro.com/Themes/Default/cars/1636.jpg)
See? Different headlights, front fenders, hood and bumper skin. Same core structure underneath. And VW could have made these two look even more different if they really wanted to.
And I never said Toyota/Subaru should reskin the whole damn car. But they could have at least TRIED to make the two look a little bit different. Sure, this car is a thousand times better than, say a Chevy Celebrity/Pontiac 6000 or a Cavalier/Sunbird. But the badge engineering is just as lazy.
Madman, this is an affordable enthusiast's car in a down economy. Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Quote from: Raza on July 17, 2012, 10:59:25 AM
Madman, this is an affordable enthusiast's car in a down economy. Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.
I have no doubt this will be a good, fun little car. I just find it curious how everyone beats up on GM for badge engineering but when the Japanese are guilty of doing the exact same same thing the enthusiast community gives them a free pass. Double standard, methinks?
:huh:
Quote from: Madman on July 17, 2012, 11:16:54 AM
I have no doubt this will be a good, fun little car. I just find it curious how everyone beats up on GM for badge engineering but when the Japanese are guilty of doing the exact same same thing the enthusiast community gives them a free pass. Double standard, methinks?
:huh:
Well for starters, GM got shit about badge engineering because they were 1 company peddling 1 shitty car under 5 marques. This is a collaboration between 2 manufacturers, so why you have such trouble comprehending they would each get a version of the product is beyond me. Plus like Raza said the car is actually worth building, so crying about what its branded as (and that goes to you anti-Scion folks too) is silly.
Quote from: Madman on July 17, 2012, 10:58:04 AM
Different headlights? They look EXACTLY the same! The front fenders and hood also appear to be identical. These bolt-on pieces are fairly cheap to produce, so Toyota/Subaru could have easily given the nose of the car a more individual look. It's done all the time.
Prime example.......
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2001-volkswagen-golf-gl_100028926_m.jpg)
(http://www.lotpro.com/Themes/Default/cars/1636.jpg)
See? Different headlights, front fenders, hood and bumper skin. Same core structure underneath. And VW could have made these two look even more different if they really wanted to.
And I never said Toyota/Subaru should reskin the whole damn car. But they could have at least TRIED to make the two look a little bit different. Sure, this car is a thousand times better than, say a Chevy Celebrity/Pontiac 6000 or a Cavalier/Sunbird. But the badge engineering is just as lazy.
ANY product development project is under HUGE budget constraints when it comes to COGS. Sure it's a $25k product but $25 here or $50 there is a big deal. It's not lazy, it's engineering + finance + product planning.
Quote from: ifcar on July 17, 2012, 08:12:02 AM
I'm not sure I agree. The point of Scion was to bring in young people with cheap, funky cars who would later graduate into bigger, more expensive Toyotas. There's nowhere else in the Toyota lineup for an FR-S owner to go, and no part of that product that would make them in any way attached to Toyota for, say, their wife's minivan.
The iQ is more of a perfect-fit car than the FR-S, really.
False. Next IS is built off the same platform. Perfect next car for people growing up with an FR-S.
Quote from: Madman on July 17, 2012, 10:58:04 AM
Different headlights? They look EXACTLY the same! The front fenders and hood also appear to be identical. These bolt-on pieces are fairly cheap to produce, so Toyota/Subaru could have easily given the nose of the car a more individual look. It's done all the time.
Prime example.......
See? Different headlights, front fenders, hood and bumper skin. Same core structure underneath. And VW could have made these two look even more different if they really wanted to.
And I never said Toyota/Subaru should reskin the whole damn car. But they could have at least TRIED to make the two look a little bit different. Sure, this car is a thousand times better than, say a Chevy Celebrity/Pontiac 6000 or a Cavalier/Sunbird. But the badge engineering is just as lazy.
:facepalm: You clearly didn't read my post. It already has a different nose, so stop arguing that point. And you really want to compare it to a Jetta/Golf scenario? The difference in volume between the two platforms is enormous. You're talking about spreading fixed costs. 3-4 times as many vehicles means 1/3 to 1/4 as expensive to do.
The headlights are different too, btw.
And they are two different brands. They both need to profit off the joint development program. How else do you suggest they do that :facepalm:
Not to mention the Golf chassis underpinned not only the Jetta, but also the Golf Plus, the Audi TT, the Audi A3, the Skoda Octavia, the Seat Leon (or Ibiza, I can't remember), and I'm sure there were others. It was a much higher volume car with a huge set of cars over which to spread and the recoup the costs. The FRBRSZ is a drop in the bucket compared to what Volkswagen did with that chassis. Production would likely be a week's sales of the A4 chassis.
I'd agree with the comments that spending a bit more money to make them look more different would have been wisely spent. Certainly if they do already have different headlights, they should be investing to make headlights that don't look nearly identical.
I can see them not taking the time to totally restyle the two cars, but they are virtually indistinguishable, probably more so than any other two current cars sold concurrently in the same market. At least you could tell a 1984 Buick from a 1984 Pontiac with a quick glance at the grille; there are minor tweaks, to the fascia of the BRZ and FR-S but just nothing that indicates which one it is.
Quote from: ifcar on July 17, 2012, 09:16:52 PM
I'd agree with the comments that spending a bit more money to make them look more different would have been wisely spent. Certainly if they do already have different headlights, they should be investing to make headlights that don't look nearly identical.
I can see them not taking the time to totally restyle the two cars, but they are virtually indistinguishable, probably more so than any other two current cars sold concurrently in the same market. At least you could tell a 1984 Buick from a 1984 Pontiac with a quick glance at the grille; there are minor tweaks, to the fascia of the BRZ and FR-S but just nothing that indicates which one it is.
Does it really matter? It's such a small volume seller that most people probably won't even know what it is. The people who do know what it is will probably be able to spot the differences.
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2012, 11:20:02 AM
It's how business is done. You have to sell products. I'm not upset at manufacturers making boring cars--it's perfect if they do that to sell the rest of us fun ones. It seems like Toyota is getting their balls back with the FRS. Hopefully it doesn't suffer the same ignominious fate as the MR2 Spyder did.
I agree. But it's a shame that if you want a driver's midsize car, you now have to buy an A4 or a 3er instead of a Passat. :devil:
That the consumer who can only afford a mainstream vehicle is limited to American and Japanese mediocrity, or a phony, watered down German option, is sad. Hopefully the Fusion will prove to be an alternative.
The issue, of course, will be the potential canibalization of sales between the Tiggie and Q3, just like the Passat and A4 of old.
Quote from: Madman on July 17, 2012, 11:16:54 AM
I have no doubt this will be a good, fun little car. I just find it curious how everyone beats up on GM for badge engineering but when the Japanese are guilty of doing the exact same same thing the enthusiast community gives them a free pass. Double standard, methinks?
:huh:
Who has given them a free pass? There have been hundreds (if not thousands) of posts here bashing Toyota for making the FR-S a Scion. :huh:
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27752.msg1750704#msg1750704 date=1342580536
Not to mention the Golf chassis underpinned not only the Jetta, but also the Golf Plus, the Audi TT, the Audi A3, the Skoda Octavia, the Seat Leon (or Ibiza, I can't remember), and I'm sure there were others. It was a much higher volume car with a huge set of cars over which to spread and the recoup the costs. The FRBRSZ is a drop in the bucket compared to what Volkswagen did with that chassis. Production would likely be a week's sales of the A4 chassis.
Golf underpins the Tiguan and its soon-permiering badge-engineered sister, the Q3, too. And it kicks ass. Who cares. I don't care about badge engineering if the underlying product is good. There is no comparo between VW/Audi badge engineering and the Cavalier/Sunfire gimmicks of old GM. ;)
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
Whens the last time youve been close to, let alone over 100 MPH?
Today, and almost every day ... I like it when the headlights (on Auto mode) come and stay on when the car reaches that speed :lol:
Quote from: TurboDan on July 18, 2012, 02:44:08 AM
Golf underpins the Tiguan and its soon-permiering badge-engineered sister, the Q3, too. And it kicks ass. Who cares. I don't care about badge engineering if the underlying product is good. There is no comparo between VW/Audi badge engineering and the Cavalier/Sunfire gimmicks of old GM. ;)
TOuareg/Cayenne/Q7 ... they can't get any different that that. Or should I mention Phaeton/Continental GT/Flying Spur? :lol:
Quote from: thecarnut on July 17, 2012, 09:19:47 PM
Does it really matter? It's such a small volume seller that most people probably won't even know what it is. The people who do know what it is will probably be able to spot the differences.
I can't. I know where the differences are, but I don't know which bumper shape is which car. It's not
that low-volume -- they collectively sold 3k last month.
Quote from: ifcar on July 18, 2012, 05:50:31 AM
I can't. I know where the differences are, but I don't know which bumper shape is which car. It's not that low-volume -- they collectively sold 3k last month.
Only because they didn't have more made. ;) I'm sure sales will stay hot for a little while, there are lots who knew it was coming and are anxiously waiting. Once they can meet demand they'll fall off some.
I really wonder how well it will keep selling compared to the Miata and Mustangs/Camaros. It's a small niche, but wide open since the main competitors (CRX, Integra, etc...) have all disappeared.
Quote from: TurboDan on July 18, 2012, 02:33:21 AM
That the consumer who can only afford a mainstream vehicle is limited to American and Japanese mediocrity, or a phony, watered down German option, is sad. Hopefully the Fusion will prove to be an alternative.
What is mediocre about cars today, vs cars 10, 20 years ago?
And there are plenty of "fun" options... Accord V6-6, Camry SE V6, Mazda6 is still dynamically pretty good
Plus you are not considering the C segment, which is pretty much the size of what your beloved Passat was... Civic Si/ILX 2.4, WRX, Jetta GLI, Mazdaspeed3, Focus ST, S40 T5 R design, upcoming Audi A3 sedan, GTI, Lancer Ralliart/EVO...
Then theres all the little cars like the Cooper + Veloster, and the little runarounds like the Rio, Elantra GT, Fit, Mazda2
Over the B5's tenure most of these cars were not available, and what was available REALLY WAS mediocre. You could argue that things peaked in the mid aughts (Altima/Maxima with the V6 + manual, S2000) but even still most of the cars that were available then are still available now, with more power, better gas mileage, better performacne and often a lower price (after inflation)
So what are you talking about????
Quote from: AltinD on July 18, 2012, 04:26:30 AM
Today, and almost every day ... I like it when the headlights (on Auto mode) come and stay on when the car reaches that speed :lol:
Are you and Cougs the same person?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 18, 2012, 09:43:28 AM
Are you and Cougs the same person?
Hey, I just wanted to put him to shame for never cruising at those speeds ... ncuk, ncuk, ncuk
Quote from: MrH on July 17, 2012, 07:45:40 AM
Well, they couldn't skip the Subaru version. It was a joint development project with them. Subaru did all the engineering and manufacturing, they had to get a vehicle out of the whole thing.
If they had badged this as a Toyota, that would be the death of Scion. Their lineup is weak, and taking the most sporty thing Toyota has made in years and passing up badging it as a Scion would mean Toyota has given up on it as a brand. This is the exact vehicle Scion was designed for.
I realize that.
Quote from: AltinD on July 19, 2012, 02:28:27 PM
Hey, I just wanted to put him to shame for never cruising at those speeds ... ncuk, ncuk, ncuk
In an old Passat??? No.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 22, 2012, 01:27:36 AM
In an old Passat??? No.
B5 Passats were incredibly stable at speeds over 100mph. Actually, even at top speed (limited to 130 in the US), the car felt completely normal, only wind noise and the blurring of the trees would tell you that you're going 130 and not 80. I set my cruise control at 130 once and did a 20 mile run mostly at that speed once. It was surreal going that fast for that long.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 22, 2012, 01:27:36 AM
In an old Passat??? No.
I've brought the old Passat (B5.5) up to 120 MPH, and 100 MPH was cruising speed of most of my daily commute. Now they have put speed cameras every mile of the highway and lowered the limigt in a big part of it, so with the new car hitting 100MPH is almost daily, but not a regular cruizing. It certanly was more stable at 100 MPH then a Camry in 80.
And of course, who in their right mind would hit 100 MPH in a 250 HP V6 AWD (my current) car, with a 155 MPH maximum speed and designed to drive in unlimited Aufobahns? :wtf: