U.S. has fewer cars per person than Europe, but still uses twice as much energy
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/08/arc-de-triomphe-opt.jpg)
Here's a shocking statistic: The United States has fewer cars per capita than Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Belgium, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and 16 other countries. Even more dramatic is one of the potential causes: A declining American middle class.
According to an Atlantic report on a new study conduct by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, we're ranked just 25th in the world in per-person car ownership. The actual number stands at 439 cars per 1,000 Americans. Further, the U.S. is an outlier when you compare the number of vehicles per capita to household consumption. While we have one of the highest rates of household spending, car buying is in decline here. It is this disparity that points to the widening income gap in the U.S. as a potential cause of our low rate of car ownership. Indeed, car ownership rates track with the size of a nation's middle class, according to the report.
To add insult to injury, despite our low rates of car ownership, Americans still consume roughly twice as much energy as most Europeans.
Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/15/u-s-has-fewer-cars-per-person-than-europe-but-still-uses-twice/
We drive more than you do.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 05:44:49 PM
To add insult to injury, despite our low rates of car ownership, Americans still consume roughly twice as much energy as most Europeans.
Only a retard would write something like that.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 16, 2012, 05:46:53 PM
We drive more than you do.
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Because our infrastructure doesn't always allow this.
Most of Europe is very old and densely packed. If everyone moved closer, population density would go up, and that isn't always desirable.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
You call being packed into cities like sardines a more relaxed lifestyle?!
Quote from: thecarnut on August 16, 2012, 07:03:13 PM
You call being packed into cities like sardines a more relaxed lifestyle?!
Mindset is totally different over there. What phases Americans, other cultures don't care about.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Because we can. Living farther away from work can often be a blessing...makes for a more relaxed lifestyle. ;)
It's called personal preference, bro.
It isn't clear as to what types of energy. We have some very large and densely populated cities, i.e., New York, L.A. and all of thier buses, subways, cabs, large police forces and the vehicles they require... we also have large trucks transporting nearly everything going from one destination to other parts of the country and back. Sadly, not unlike much of Europe, the rail system in the states is nowhere like it used to be many generation before the vast majority of us here.
Throughout much of Europe, automobiles tend to be much smaller then ours for European's to better maneuver their cars and park in such congested areas as shown in the photograph. Things are changing here with far more smaller and fuel efficient vehicles, including hybrids.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 16, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
Because we can. Living farther away from work can often be a blessing...makes for a more relaxed lifestyle. ;)
It's called personal preference, bro.
European socialist collectivists don't care about personal preference. They care about the collective, not the individual.
Quote from: TurboDan on August 16, 2012, 08:06:17 PM
European socialist collectivists don't care about personal preference. They care about the collective, not the individual.
I don't think you can make this so extreme on either side.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 16, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
Because we can. Living farther away from work can often be a blessing...makes for a more relaxed lifestyle. ;)
It's called personal preference, bro.
This is often very true, especially if the drive is scenic and traffic is bearable. One problem I have is the horrible winter weather and hilly terraine (my route to/fro) here in upstate NY. The blessing? The beauty of spring, summer and autumn drives :tounge:
Yet, there are many days I wish I could roll out of bed in the morning and being to walk a relatively short distance to work. That too, could be very relaxing by having the option to sleep in later and getting home at a more reasonable hour to unwind.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 16, 2012, 07:38:51 PM
Because we can. Living farther away from work can often be a blessing...makes for a more relaxed lifestyle. ;)
It's called personal preference, bro.
Yep. Some of us live within biking/walking distance from work. Europeans dont have that choice
Not going to bother reading the article, but a relationship between per person numbers shouldn't be compared with a relationship between per population numbers. That doesn't work.
Also, very few Americans live 60 miles away from their workplaces. Very few. And those who do often take public transport (ex: Dazzle).
My uncle, who lives in a fairly far out suburb in one of the most notoriously spread out metro areas in the country lives 20 miles from downtown.
Looks like the original poster has hit on some nerves :)
I find the statistic very interesting. My guess is per capita energy consumption is higher in america because the homes are significantly larger. Air conditioning and heating requirements are significantly more. The homes are larger because there's relatively lots of space and land outside of a few spots is relatively cheap. I don't know if the article addresses this, but i believe the average age of americans is less than most of europe due to on average more children per family. This may also help exlain why there are fewer cars per person in the US.
Quote from: veeman on August 16, 2012, 09:56:23 PM
Looks like the original poster has hit on some nerves :)
I find the statistic very interesting. My guess is per capita energy consumption is higher in america because the homes are significantly larger. Air conditioning and heating requirements are significantly more. The homes are larger because there's relatively lots of space and land outside of a few spots is relatively cheap. I don't know if the article addresses this, but i believe the average age of americans is less than most of europe due to on average more children per family. This may also help exlain why there are fewer cars per person in the US.
I always like a "good" article to spark a debate... or better yet, a meaningful dialogue and not about politics :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
don't know how it is in Germany (never been), but I have been to England and Scotland. The impression I got there waas that the Brits believe they live in a very, very large place. Asking In a London pub how long I should plan to take a drive up to the Manchester area, and the replies sounded as if I was planning an epic journey: all this nonsense about avoiding the motorways during bank holidays and how to avoid certain problems.
This is a trip of less than 200 miles: the sort of distance the average American will drive for a decent taco in some places, and without a moment's hesitation. The trip was surpridingly boring.
"US has fewer cars per person"
Really? :confused:
Quote from: Galaxy on August 17, 2012, 01:14:20 AM
"US has fewer cars per person"
Really? :confused:
I find it hard to believe as well, it just doesn't seem to add up.
Oh well.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 17, 2012, 12:29:10 AM
don't know how it is in Germany (never been), but I have been to England and Scotland. The impression I got there waas that the Brits believe they live in a very, very large place. Asking In a London pub how long I should plan to take a drive up to the Manchester area, and the replies sounded as if I was planning an epic journey: all this nonsense about avoiding the motorways during bank holidays and how to avoid certain problems.
This is a trip of less than 200 miles: the sort of distance the average American will drive for a decent taco in some places, and without a moment's hesitation. The trip was surpridingly boring.
This will again come as a complete surprise for most of you guys, but surprise, surprise, Europe is very diverse - even more so than the USA! (believe it or not). When I lived in Prague, everything over 1 mile was far too long for "a decent taco". However, when I lived in the Northern, most remote part of Norway - 200 miles for "a decent taco" could easily happen.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 17, 2012, 12:29:10 AM
don't know how it is in Germany (never been), but I have been to England and Scotland. The impression I got there waas that the Brits believe they live in a very, very large place. Asking In a London pub how long I should plan to take a drive up to the Manchester area, and the replies sounded as if I was planning an epic journey: all this nonsense about avoiding the motorways during bank holidays and how to avoid certain problems.
This is a trip of less than 200 miles: the sort of distance the average American will drive for a decent taco in some places, and without a moment's hesitation. The trip was surpridingly boring.
Their trepidation is understandable. The roads are packed: 60 million people squeezed into an island that would comfortably fit into many US states, & a short 200 mile journey can take hours.
A few years ago I drove from North Yorkshire to London with wife & kids in my Dad's car. It was an all-day marathon of jams & queues. I was a wreck by the end of it.
Not sure where they got their numbers from, stats I have seen suggest its not even close
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita
We are #2 only to Monaco
As far as overall consumption, I think a lot of it obv has to do with how huge our houses are, but also the weather and where people live. NE gets as many heating degree days as Iceland. Galveston, TX has as many heating days as Nigeria. I think the only other country w/as much of a weather spread might be China, and they are nowhere near as developed (or conditioned). If we normalized for weather I bet it would be a lot closer
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2012, 06:44:16 AM
Not sure where they got their numbers from, stats I have seen suggest its not even close
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita
We are #2 only to Monaco
As far as overall consumption, I think a lot of it obv has to do with how huge our houses are, but also the weather and where people live. NE gets as many heating degree days as Iceland. Galveston, TX has as many heating days as Nigeria. I think the only other country w/as much of a weather spread might be China, and they are nowhere near as developed (or conditioned). If we normalized for weather I bet it would be a lot closer
Journalists can take numbers, mix 'm up, turn them around and upside down just to sell a story.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 17, 2012, 06:44:16 AM
Not sure where they got their numbers from, stats I have seen suggest its not even close
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita
We are #2 only to Monaco
As far as overall consumption, I think a lot of it obv has to do with how huge our houses are, but also the weather and where people live. NE gets as many heating degree days as Iceland. Galveston, TX has as many heating days as Nigeria. I think the only other country w/as much of a weather spread might be China, and they are nowhere near as developed (or conditioned). If we normalized for weather I bet it would be a lot closer
Indeed. And not just heating, but also cooling. How many major cities in Western Europe are located in the middle of a desert or in humid subtropical climate zones? Places like Phoenix where temperatures are north of 100F for a third of the year. Or Houston or Orlando where it's in the 90F+ range with high humidity that drives heat indices well into the triple digits. Some major European cities are in climates like this, but many are in much more temperate climates.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Because sometimes people work in undesirable places. Sometimes living near work means a bad school district for your kids. Sometimes living near work means living in a boring area. Sometimes living near work means you have to live in a small apartment instead of a big house.
I don't understand how you don't understand that.
Quote from: Raza on August 17, 2012, 07:30:02 AM
Because sometimes people work in undesirable places. Sometimes living near work means a bad school district for your kids. Sometimes living near work means living in a boring area. Sometimes living near work means you have to live in a small apartment instead of a big house.
I don't understand how you don't understand that.
Or simply not being able to afford to live within a few miles of where you work because rents, property values, or taxes are so high. US cities are also much more sprawled out, especially as you move west.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Consider this.
I live roughly 45min from Toronto. My house is worth probably 220k, prop tax 3200/yr.
My brother lives in Etobicoke (10min drive to downtown TO barring traffic) and his house cost 340k (not sure about prop tax) even though its about 2/3 the size of mine on a smaller lot. His neighborhood is also more dense.
Go a little further away to Brantford and my dads house is worth about the same as mine while being at least a 1/3 bigger and his prop tax is only 2k ish a year.
That might give you an idea why people just dont move closer (to TO anyway).
Also the first thought that jumped into my head here is that if the welfare cheque is mailed to your door then what do you need a car for?
Perhaps the leaches arent that great in number yet, but...
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
I don't want to live in a city. I want land. And lots of it.
And our cars must work harder to pull our fat asses around.
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 16, 2012, 06:05:30 PM
Only a retard would write something like that.
More energy consumption = more happiness, more freedom, more opportunity, more prosperity.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 17, 2012, 12:15:06 PM
More energy consumption = more happiness, more freedom, more opportunity, more prosperity.
I agree 100%.
I wasn't trying to stir up a fight. :huh:
Fact is, here most people live within easy reach of their workplace and those that live further away have reliable access through excellent public transportation like trains. I was just saying that if I had to work somewhere far away and drive there and back home every week, I'd rather move closer to my workplace. It's more relaxing and it'll keep my gas costs low. Many European cities are automatically discouraging driving by car through the lack of parking spaces or parking spaces with a maximum two hour parking limit. Parking spaces are a commodity in major cities here.
And air conditioning is almost unknown here. We don't have deserts in Europe (unless you count the warm climate of Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Southern France, Italy etc.) but even there homes with air conditioning are rare. In fact many businesses only have one room which is air conditioned. When I had several internships with medium to large businesses in my youth (including two Mercedes' dealerships, one of them in Munich) they really only had one room which was air conditioned - and that was the meeting room where business could be discussed with guests. The big bosses and top managers had offices that had no A/C. A/Cs are expensive here despite electricity prices being fairly priced.
I have no A/C in my apartment. But all it takes is good planning. Open the windows up at night to let the cool air in, close them in the morning to keep the cool air inside. Works for me - and I don't need an A/C. An A/C just means higher electricity costs.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2012, 12:41:05 PM
I wasn't trying to stir up a fight. :huh:
I have no A/C in my apartment. But all it takes is good planning. Open the windows up at night to let the cool air in, close them in the morning to keep the cool air inside. Works for me - and I don't need an A/C. An A/C just means higher electricity costs.
its like a fridge. 100 years ago no one missed them. now its a necessity. once you experience something better, its hard to go back.
if you experience air conditioning not as a luxury but as a routine aspect of life, you will miss it. because no matter how you spin it, air conditioning is better than no air conditioning when its hot and humid without a breeze.
ultimately you want to be as comfortable as possible with the least carbon footprint.
Quote from: veeman on August 17, 2012, 01:00:24 PM
its like a fridge. 100 years ago no one missed them. now its a necessity. once you experience something better, its hard to go back.
if you experience air conditioning not as a luxury but as a routine aspect of life, you will miss it. because no matter how you spin it, air conditioning is better than no air conditioning when its hot and humid without a breeze.
ultimately you want to be as comfortable as possible with the least carbon footprint.
I actually grew up in the Philippines which means I grew up with A/C. A/Cs were very common in that country. Every building and home literally had several. I spent the summers and winters in Germany and I never felt the need for an A/C while in Germany during the summers.
Now I have been living permanently in Germany since 2001 and have never seen the need for an A/C. Yes, there are days when it's really hot here during the summers and where an A/C would be nice, but it'll be one of those things where I'll use the A/C 30 days out of 365 days - it's not worth it. I manage fine without an A/C. All I do is go back into my apartment, shower and wear light clothes and I can survive the day without A/C. I also open my windows in the late afternoons (7 PM+) when it's cooler to allow the cool air to enter my apartment. In the mornings I close the windows and the cool air stays inside throughout the day. I have double-glazed-windows and curtains which also help keep the heat out and the cool air inside.
I can understand that somebody living in Las Vegas for example requires an A/C - it's very hot there all year round.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2012, 01:07:06 PM
I actually grew up in the Philippines which means I grew up with A/C. A/Cs were very common in that country. Every building and home literally had several. I spent the summers and winters in Germany and I never felt the need for an A/C while in Germany during the summers.
Now I have been living permanently in Germany since 2001 and have never seen the need for an A/C. Yes, there are days when it's really hot here during the summers and where an A/C would be nice, but it'll be one of those things where I'll use the A/C 30 days out of 365 days - it's not worth it. I manage fine without an A/C. All I do is go back into my apartment, shower and wear light clothes and I can survive the day without A/C. I also open my windows in the late afternoons (7 PM+) when it's cooler to allow the cool air to enter my apartment. In the mornings I close the windows and the cool air stays inside throughout the day. I have double-glazed-windows and curtains which also help keep the heat out and the cool air inside.
I can understand that somebody living in Las Vegas for example requires an A/C - it's very hot there all year round.
That you "manage" fine doesn't mean others can; the elderly, the sick, the very young, etc. You're also forgetting that the majority of the US lives in quite/very humid areas (Midwest, South East, North East, South) where the temperature/heat index remains fairly high at night. Add those folks to those who live in the South West and CA, and pretty much most of the US lives in hot areas whereby AC provides a significant benefit; beyond improving health for some, one can also count as benefits improving productivity (at home and work) and overall reduction of stress.
A few weeks ago in Norman, we had temperatures of 113 degrees F. Not having air conditioning in those temperatures quickly becomes a hazard to your health and well-being.
Just looking at this board alone, multiple people owns multiple cars and this applies to the general population. Unless you live in crappy cities like NYC, practically everyone needs and has a car for one reason or another. On the other hand, there's a larger portion of Europeans who don't have cars or a license for that matter plus higher taxes and cost of ownership in Europe, so I don't see how that can be true.
Also, I don't want to live 10 mins away from work, that'll land me in the ghettos, or in a cramped crappy overpriced beach city.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 17, 2012, 02:26:28 AM
This will again come as a complete surprise for most of you guys, but surprise, surprise, Europe is very diverse - even more so than the USA! (believe it or not). When I lived in Prague, everything over 1 mile was far too long for "a decent taco". However, when I lived in the Northern, most remote part of Norway - 200 miles for "a decent taco" could easily happen.
I do have Norway on my wish list of places to visit someday.
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 17, 2012, 06:22:13 AM
Their trepidation is understandable. The roads are packed: 60 million people squeezed into an island that would comfortably fit into many US states, & a short 200 mile journey can take hours.
A few years ago I drove from North Yorkshire to London with wife & kids in my Dad's car. It was an all-day marathon of jams & queues. I was a wreck by the end of it.
its actually slightly larger than half of California, and closest to Kansas in size.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2012, 12:41:05 PM
I wasn't trying to stir up a fight. :huh:
Fact is, here most people live within easy reach of their workplace
Our country is the size of your continent.
Quote
and those that live further away have reliable access through excellent public transportation like trains.
Our country is the size of your continent and not as densely populated.
Quote
I was just saying that if I had to work somewhere far away and drive there and back home every week, I'd rather move closer to my workplace. It's more relaxing and it'll keep my gas costs low.
And I'm saying that's not an option for most people. I could live near work, in a shitty area, or live in a nice area and commute. I can afford to live near work, but not everyone can.
Quote
Many European cities are automatically discouraging driving by car through the lack of parking spaces or parking spaces with a maximum two hour parking limit. Parking spaces are a commodity in major cities here.
Our country is the size of your continent and not nearly as densely populated.
Quote
And air conditioning is almost unknown here. We don't have deserts in Europe (unless you count the warm climate of Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Southern France, Italy etc.) but even there homes with air conditioning are rare. In fact many businesses only have one room which is air conditioned. When I had several internships with medium to large businesses in my youth (including two Mercedes' dealerships, one of them in Munich) they really only had one room which was air conditioned - and that was the meeting room where business could be discussed with guests. The big bosses and top managers had offices that had no A/C. A/Cs are expensive here despite electricity prices being fairly priced.
I have no A/C in my apartment. But all it takes is good planning. Open the windows up at night to let the cool air in, close them in the morning to keep the cool air inside. Works for me - and I don't need an A/C. An A/C just means higher electricity costs.
Sounds like what hell is like.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27932.msg1765826#msg1765826 date=1345243799
Our country is the size of your continent.
Our country is the size of your continent and not as densely populated.
And I'm saying that's not an option for most people. I could live near work, in a shitty area, or live in a nice area and commute. I can afford to live near work, but not everyone can.
Our country is the size of your continent and not nearly as densely populated.
Sounds like what hell is like.
I don't think the average person from Europe has any idea what kind of space we enjoy in the New World, unless they've traveled here. The article kind of stinks of people just wanting to bag on the U.S. for using more energy, without going into any kind of meaningful detail. :nutty:
How many regular guys drive crew cab heavy duty pickups that get 12 miles to a gallon over there in Europe? Ya, that's what I thought. :lol:
Quote from: shp4man on August 17, 2012, 05:06:43 PM
How many regular guys drive crew cab heavy duty pickups that get 12 miles to a gallon over there in Europe? Ya, that's what I thought. :lol:
Funny things is: a lot of the European emigrants I work with do exactly that.
I've noticed them getting less popular these days, though. :huh:
Quote from: shp4man on August 17, 2012, 05:15:19 PM
I've noticed them getting less popular these days, though. :huh:
Well, that's to be expected.
I just find it funny that you read so much written by Europeans about all that's wrong with the US, but when a lot of them (no, not all) do move here, they seem to embrace all those things with gusto.
This article is pathetic. Whoever wrote it didn't even bother to check the basic facts.
Here are the raw numbers directly from the US department of energy: http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb31/Edition31_Chapter03.pdf Look at Table 3.4 on page 6.
2009 US Cars and Trucks
Cars=134,880,000
Trucks=110,561,000
Total=248,460,000
Using a US population of roughly 310 million here are the number of vehicles per 1000 people:
Cars=435
Trucks=357
Total=801
So obviously the number the article is using only includes CARS. Light trucks, SUVs and vans are not included. Kinda a big part of the US auto market to exclude.
For Christ's sake, just a quick simple check on wikipedia would have clued them in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita#cite_note-USeDataBook-1
US number of motor vehicles per 1000 people = 812.
Hell just look at the plot of vehicles vs per capita consumption and the US is waaaay out in right field. Obviously something is wrong with the data (here: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/its-official-western-europeans-have-more-cars-per-person-than-americans/261108/#comment-619190681)
The really funny thing is people questioned the numbers on the articles web page and here's the authors response:
"Update: Some confusion in the comments about what kinds of vehicles are counted in the rankings. I respond below, but the gist is that this data includes all "passenger vehicles," which means cars, pickup trucks, SUVs, and minibuses. It does not include commercial freight trucks or buses with over nine seats, both of which the U.S. has a lot of, but which tend to be owned by businesses rather than individuals."
Still can't get the basic facts right.
Quote from: SVT666 on August 17, 2012, 12:28:10 PM
I agree 100%.
Same here. Today I did a 20 mile off-road trip in my LR2. Tomorrow, I might go fishing in my 3mpg boat. Life guzzling gas is pretty damn fun. :ohyeah: :lol:
Quote from: 66vette on August 17, 2012, 05:57:13 PM
This article is pathetic. Whoever wrote it didn't even bother to check the basic facts.
Here are the raw numbers directly from the US department of energy: http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb31/Edition31_Chapter03.pdf Look at Table 3.4 on page 6.
2009 US Cars and Trucks
Cars=134,880,000
Trucks=110,561,000
Total=248,460,000
Using a US population of roughly 310 million here are the number of vehicles per 1000 people:
Cars=435
Trucks=357
Total=801
So obviously the number the article is using only includes CARS. Light trucks, SUVs and vans are not included. Kinda a big part of the US auto market to exclude.
For Christ's sake, just a quick simple check on wikipedia would have clued them in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita#cite_note-USeDataBook-1
US number of motor vehicles per 1000 people = 812.
Hell just look at the plot of vehicles vs per capita consumption and the US is waaaay out in right field. Obviously something is wrong with the data (here: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/its-official-western-europeans-have-more-cars-per-person-than-americans/261108/#comment-619190681)
The really funny thing is people questioned the numbers on the articles web page and here's the authors response:
"Update: Some confusion in the comments about what kinds of vehicles are counted in the rankings. I respond below, but the gist is that this data includes all "passenger vehicles," which means cars, pickup trucks, SUVs, and minibuses. It does not include commercial freight trucks or buses with over nine seats, both of which the U.S. has a lot of, but which tend to be owned by businesses rather than individuals."
Still can't get the basic facts right.
:clap:
Welcome, by the way.
Today I did something that most Europeans would have a conniption fit over. I drove an 110 km south on a two lane road with a million tourists, crossed the US border, pick up a shipment of boat parts for my boat (saved $380 by doing this), and turned around and drove all the way back in 3 hours. Tomorrow I'm getting on my boat with my family at 11:00 am and we will spend the day burning through a tank of fuel while water skiing and drinking beer.
Quote from: 66vette on August 17, 2012, 05:57:13 PM
This article is pathetic. Whoever wrote it didn't even bother to check the basic facts.
Here are the raw numbers directly from the US department of energy: http://cta.ornl.gov/data/tedb31/Edition31_Chapter03.pdf Look at Table 3.4 on page 6.
2009 US Cars and Trucks
Cars=134,880,000
Trucks=110,561,000
Total=248,460,000
Using a US population of roughly 310 million here are the number of vehicles per 1000 people:
Cars=435
Trucks=357
Total=801
So obviously the number the article is using only includes CARS. Light trucks, SUVs and vans are not included. Kinda a big part of the US auto market to exclude.
For Christ's sake, just a quick simple check on wikipedia would have clued them in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cars_per_capita#cite_note-USeDataBook-1
US number of motor vehicles per 1000 people = 812.
Hell just look at the plot of vehicles vs per capita consumption and the US is waaaay out in right field. Obviously something is wrong with the data (here: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/its-official-western-europeans-have-more-cars-per-person-than-americans/261108/#comment-619190681)
The really funny thing is people questioned the numbers on the articles web page and here's the authors response:
"Update: Some confusion in the comments about what kinds of vehicles are counted in the rankings. I respond below, but the gist is that this data includes all "passenger vehicles," which means cars, pickup trucks, SUVs, and minibuses. It does not include commercial freight trucks or buses with over nine seats, both of which the U.S. has a lot of, but which tend to be owned by businesses rather than individuals."
Still can't get the basic facts right.
Welcome?
Quote from: SVT666 on August 17, 2012, 09:39:44 PM
Today I did something that most Europeans would have a conniption fit over. I drove an 110 km south on a two lane road with a million tourists, crossed the US border, pick up a shipment of boat parts for my boat (saved $380 by doing this), and turned around and drove all the way back in 3 hours. Tomorrow I'm getting on my boat with my family at 11:00 am and we will spend the day burning through a tank of fuel while water skiing and drinking beer.
I accelerated past 100mph in a gear other than 6th multiple times. Shame, shame.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 17, 2012, 12:41:05 PM
And air conditioning is almost unknown here.
One of the very unfortunate features of Europe. I was shocked, honestly- that a "civilized" land wouldn't have a/c. But they turn all the lights off in the daytime to save power too. It's dark in some of those big buildings!!
Quote from: GoCougs on August 17, 2012, 12:15:06 PM
More energy consumption = more happiness, more freedom, more opportunity, more prosperity.
That's going to be an issue
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 17, 2012, 04:01:04 PM
I do have Norway on my wish list of places to visit someday.
I'd happily show you around my parts :cheers:
Quote from: SVT666 on August 17, 2012, 09:39:44 PM
Today I did something that most Europeans would have a conniption fit over. I drove an 110 km south on a two lane road with a million tourists, crossed the US border, pick up a shipment of boat parts for my boat (saved $380 by doing this), and turned around and drove all the way back in 3 hours. Tomorrow I'm getting on my boat with my family at 11:00 am and we will spend the day burning through a tank of fuel while water skiing and drinking beer.
A few years ago I did something that most Americans can only dream about in the land of the free: I drove those 650 km on the Autobahn A6 from Frankfurt to Munich (no speed limits on that Autobahn) at 210 km/h (winter tires) the whole time refueling a mere four times. :devil:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 17, 2012, 11:44:41 PM
One of the very unfortunate features of Europe. I was shocked, honestly- that a "civilized" land wouldn't have a/c. But they turn all the lights off in the daytime to save power too. It's dark in some of those big buildings!!
I've never seen it as a problem to be honest. The overall costs of such a unit here outweigh the benefits. Right now it's 28 degrees C outside and inside my apartment it's cool - because I had my windows open during the night. Simple and cheap solution. ;)
Also, most Europeans don't see the need for an A/C. Remember, ten years ago A/C was still optional on most cars, even luxury cars. I spent a few weeks with some relatives at the Lago di Garda in Italy. They live in a luxury condominium - no A/C.
28 Celsius (82 F) is not very hot at all (in fact, I normally set my A/C to 27/28). It pretty much stays above 32 (90) here during the summer and is normally above 38 (100) or even 41 (105) during the afternoon.
Man made global warming is probably real and there probably is a finite supply of oil left in the ground, but it was worth it. No matter what happens.
Also, I don't think GW is going to be as bad as people say. If it just makes my grass die in the summer and corn prices go up, I can live with that.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 03:07:27 AM
A few years ago I did something that most Americans can only dream about in the land of the free: I drove those 650 km on the Autobahn A6 from Frankfurt to Munich (no speed limits on that Autobahn) at 210 km/h (winter tires) the whole time refueling a mere four times. :devil:
Pfft. I did 215km/h. :lol:
(j/k, was a rental Van- only filled up once but averaged about 140km/h)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 03:12:55 AM
I've never seen it as a problem to be honest. The overall costs of such a unit here outweigh the benefits. Right now it's 28 degrees C outside and inside my apartment it's cool - because I had my windows open during the night. Simple and cheap solution. ;)
Also, most Europeans don't see the need for an A/C. Remember, ten years ago A/C was still optional on most cars, even luxury cars. I spent a few weeks with some relatives at the Lago di Garda in Italy. They live in a luxury condominium - no A/C.
Tell that to the Spanish. Don't they still take afternoon siestas because of the heat?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 18, 2012, 08:22:56 AM
Pfft. I did 215km/h. :lol:
(j/k, was a rental Van- only filled up once but averaged about 140km/h)
Well my winter tires are limited to 210 km/h. :lol:
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
Tell that to the Spanish. Don't they still take afternoon siestas because of the heat?
Don't ask me, ask them why they don't buy A/Cs in huge numbers. They number one reason they'll probably give you is that it's to expensive.
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
Tell that to the Spanish. Don't they still take afternoon siestas because of the heat?
They do in the southern part of the country, but not because of the heat anymore. A/C is all over the place.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 18, 2012, 11:53:04 AM
They do in the southern part of the country, but not because of the heat anymore. A/C is all over the place.
You'd figure in a country that warm... I guess they just take really long lunches? :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 08:32:55 AM
Don't ask me, ask them why they don't buy A/Cs in huge numbers. They number one reason they'll probably give you is that it's to expensive.
You can get a window A/C unit for about $100 dollars. :huh:
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 12:01:46 PM
You'd figure in a country that warm... I guess they just take really long lunches? :lol:
Yup! :lol:
It is slowly disappearing though.
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
You can get a window A/C unit for about $100 dollars. :huh:
Those suck a LOT of electricity.
Larger A/C units produce more cooling for the power $$ spent. But then you have to build the house for the A/C.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 18, 2012, 12:11:38 PM
Those suck a LOT of electricity.
Larger A/C units produce more cooling for the power $$ spent. But then you have to build the house for the A/C.
Oh I am aware. Just for use when one is desperate and is willing to sit next to it to escape 100+ degree heat! I'm guessing there's still a lot of homes that use rad heat in Europe that would require a ton of ducting to be made for central air. That's expensive of course.
One can add central AC into a house after the fact though. If the house already has central heat central AC is usually an add-on to the existing system. If there is no central heat it can be added after the fact (had that done to my house, but no AC as it would have about doubled the cost).
I have two large window mounted units located at either end of the house; they'll keep my unshaded house at ~72F on the hottest of days (like the last few days of ~95F). I will have to turn them on in the morning though; if the house really heats up they'll not be able to cool it down to 72F.
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 12:48:43 PM
I'm guessing there's still a lot of homes that use rad heat in Europe that would require a ton of ducting to be made for central air. That's expensive of course.
99% of new homes in Germany use rad heat, though usually they do not have radiators anymore they just run water through the floor and/or walls.
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
You can get a window A/C unit for about $100 dollars. :huh:
Problem is that most homes here are built without the foreseeable future use of an A/C. Installing a proper A/C means breaking down a wall somewhere to install the thing.
And as Will said, a small A/C sucks a lot of electricity and a big proper one just isn't worth it. Most Germans think this way: A/C for summer = 2-3 months max out of 12 months in a year. It's just not worth the extra costs. ;)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 08:32:55 AM
Don't ask me, ask them why they don't buy A/Cs in huge numbers. They number one reason they'll probably give you is that it's to expensive.
How much are European electric bills, though? I can speak for two of the homes my family owns ? one has central A/C and one does not, but has one very large window unit downstairs and then four smaller window units (one in each bedroom). In both houses, the electric bill (with A/C on generally all the time) comes to about $300 each.
Does the government throw high taxes/surcharges onto electric bills there?
On another note, was behind this guy on the road today. Snapped a pic as he turned. Best license plate ever...
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p541/TurboDan609/hummer.jpg)
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 12:02:31 PM
You can get a window A/C unit for about $100 dollars. :huh:
You have to pay to run it
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 18, 2012, 03:12:58 PM
You have to pay to run it
Right. I ... thought that was already implied.
Quote from: TurboDan on August 18, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
How much are European electric bills, though?
Power bills are crazy expensive in Europe- even though I believe a LOT of Germany and France runs on nukyular.
(But they're also planning to phase those powerplants out in the next 10-30years! All the enviro wackjob nuts. :huh: )
Quote from: TurboDan on August 18, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
How much are European electric bills, though? I can speak for two of the homes my family owns ? one has central A/C and one does not, but has one very large window unit downstairs and then four smaller window units (one in each bedroom). In both houses, the electric bill (with A/C on generally all the time) comes to about $300 each.
I average 35-45 Euros a month in electricity bills. Sometimes a bit more, especially if I have my computer running all day rendering pictures. But on average I pay under 50 Euros a month.
In the winters I pay a bit more because I have a small heater (the opposite of an A/C) that I run for half an hour in my room before turning it off. I don't use my standard heater because my apartment is sandwiched left and right and top and bottom by other apartments who use their heaters in the winters - so I get some of their excess heat. :ohyeah:
Quote from: TurboDan on August 18, 2012, 01:28:06 PMDoes the government throw high taxes/surcharges onto electric bills there?
No, but there are a lot of energy companies which compete with one another, thus electricity prices are quite fair and acceptable here.
I drove 4 1/2 hours to my parents beach house to find the A/C was out and could not be fixed until next week. It was over 100 in the house. I got back in the RX-8 and drove home. I helped use up our nations gas (and oil) because this southerner will not sit around in the heat all day with no A/C. I don't live in a 3rd world country.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 18, 2012, 01:49:38 AM
I'd happily show you around my parts :cheers:
Be careful with that: I've been known to take people up on their offers of hospitality.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 03:48:50 PM
I average 35-45 Euros a month in electricity bills. Sometimes a bit more, especially if I have my computer running all day rendering pictures. But on average I pay under 50 Euros a month.
In the winters I pay a bit more because I have a small heater (the opposite of an A/C) that I run for half an hour in my room before turning it off. I don't use my standard heater because my apartment is sandwiched left and right and top and bottom by other apartments who use their heaters in the winters - so I get some of their excess heat. :ohyeah:
How big is your apartment??
My house is ~2,000 square feet. Four walls and a roof steal my A/C and heat money$.
Quote from: Northlands on August 18, 2012, 08:28:52 AM
Tell that to the Spanish. Don't they still take afternoon siestas because of the heat?
I think the Spanish still take siestas because they're Spaniards.
So it doesn't seem like there's a huge disincentive tax-wise against the window A/C units. I can understand not wanting to deal with the expense of running the duct work through an old building. Depending on the year a home was built, there are also asbestos issues. That's why we never converted that second house over the central A/C. The expense of the asbestos remediation would've been outrageous.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 18, 2012, 04:15:10 PM
I think the Spanish still take siestas because they're Spaniards.
:lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
Have you looked at a fucking map of this place? IT'S HUGE, SON.
Quote from: S204STi on August 18, 2012, 05:33:39 PM
Have you looked at a fucking map of this place? IT'S HUGE, SON.
:lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 18, 2012, 12:59:23 PM
Problem is that most homes here are built without the foreseeable future use of an A/C. Installing a proper A/C means breaking down a wall somewhere to install the thing.
And as Will said, a small A/C sucks a lot of electricity and a big proper one just isn't worth it. Most Germans think this way: A/C for summer = 2-3 months max out of 12 months in a year. It's just not worth the extra costs. ;)
And that extra cost, like pretty much everything else in Europe, is catastrophically high. If central AC cost in Germany what it does in the US, plenty more Germans would have central AC.
Quote from: S204STi on August 18, 2012, 05:33:39 PM
Have you looked at a fucking map of this place? IT'S HUGE, SON.
Looking at a 6 drive through just one state tomorrow... (Kansas)
I've been over the pond during mid-summer and it was never hot or humid enough for A/C. I can understand why Europeans don't bother. Why have it if you don't need it?
Quote from: hotrodalex on August 18, 2012, 10:18:37 PM
Looking at a 6 drive through just one state tomorrow... (Kansas)
4 hours gets me halfway across BC. 24 hours of driving gets me all the way to the northern border of the province. Then there is still the Yukon Territories in my way before getting to the Arctic Ocean and it's just as big as BC. 7 days of solid 12 hours a day of driving will get you clear across Canada.
Re: Window vs Central power consumption.
Before I put central air in here we ran a single window unit upstairs.
After the switch to central it blew me away that it cost less in electricity to cool the whole house than it did to cool 1 maybe 1.5 rooms.
Quote from: VTEC_Inside on August 19, 2012, 12:00:46 AM
Re: Window vs Central power consumption.
Before I put central air in here we ran a single window unit upstairs.
After the switch to central it blew me away that it cost less in electricity to cool the whole house than it did to cool 1 maybe 1.5 rooms.
Good to know- I knew it was less power for a central system, just not how drastic.
Quote from: SVT666 on August 18, 2012, 11:31:40 PM
7 days of solid 12 hours a day of driving will get you clear across Canada.
And that's not no 55mph crap either..
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 18, 2012, 04:13:23 PM
Be careful with that: I've been known to take people up on their offers of hospitality.
I'll keep the beer cold :ohyeah:
Quote from: Madman on August 18, 2012, 10:52:26 PM
I've been over the pond during mid-summer and it was never hot or humid enough for A/C. I can understand why Europeans don't bother. Why have it if you don't need it?
I'm sure people living in Spain, Portugal and Turkey may see it differently. Or Greece, Malta...etc.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 18, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
How big is your apartment??
My house is ~2,000 square feet. Four walls and a roof steal my A/C and heat money$.
About 45 Quadratmeter (don't know the American equivalent). I've got a kitchen, bathroom, a living room, a small foyer and my bedroom.
Quote from: S204STi on August 18, 2012, 05:33:39 PM
Have you looked at a fucking map of this place? IT'S HUGE, SON.
I know.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 18, 2012, 10:07:06 PM
And that extra cost, like pretty much everything else in Europe, is catastrophically high. If central AC cost in Germany what it does in the US, plenty more Germans would have central AC.
I don't think so.
Europeans think differently than Americans. Again, most people here don't see the point of having an A/C because it won't be needed for most of the year. Those three months in the summer are bearable without an A/C. Some people have an A/C here, most don't.
Today by the way was the hottest day of the summer in Germany - 40 degrees C. I was at BMW Welt today and it was hot. I was sweating like crazy. But when I went home, my apartment was cool despite the extreme heat outside. I don't need an A/C.
The many Americans I meet who live in Munich seem to do just fine here without an A/C in their home/apartment.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 19, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
About 45 Quadratmeter (don't know the American equivalent).
Square metre. 45 square metres = 484 square feet.
Quote from: 93JC on August 19, 2012, 02:57:03 PM
Square metre. 45 square metres = 484 square feet.
You're the man. :praise:
When I worked at a hotel in downtown Chicago I once had a German tourists ask me if he had been charged extra for his room upgrade. I asked him what he meant because he wasn?t in an upgraded room, just a standard sized one. He was blown away at how big it was and that his room had A/C. Definitely big culture change.
I did visit Germany once though in mid August. It was pretty empty at the time since that?s when everyone goes on their vacations to the southern European countries apparently. Honestly, mid August over there was a lot, lot cooler than mid August back in Chicago. I can see not really needing A/C. Although I?m surprised that it isn?t that wide spread. I mean, as a society we have progressed far beyond just basic needs.
Germany is def way cooler than say the East Coast
Something else to consider, w/the circulation of the ocean Western Europe will be way cooler than the US East Coast
Hot current = hot muggy ass weather
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Corrientes-oceanicas.gif/800px-Corrientes-oceanicas.gif)
Really!? BTW, how many square feet are you cooling?
Quote from: Laconian on August 20, 2012, 01:11:24 PM
Really!? BTW, how many square feet are you cooling?
Who, me? Bout three fiddy (but w/all south + east exposure)
A/C? Wuddat?
Fiscally solvent municipalities? Wuddat??? :lol:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 20, 2012, 04:37:41 PM
Who, me? Bout three fiddy (but w/all south + east exposure)
I'm north facing and I definitely need AC. Can't sleep unless it's in the low to mid 60s.
Just seen this thread. Wimmer in not understanding that other countries are different shocker!
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 21, 2012, 03:42:31 AM
Just seen this thread. Wimmer in not understanding that other countries are different shocker!
:rolleyes:
But it's true Wims. It sounds like you have never been to the US. True?
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 21, 2012, 04:44:37 AM
But it's true Wims. It sounds like you have never been to the US. True?
Eh, where do I "complain" about the use of A/C in the US? I don't.
I've been to Florida and California and stayed in each state for one week.
So you do understand why Americans use more gas then.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 21, 2012, 04:58:22 AM
So you do understand why Americans use more gas then.
Did I write the article? :huh:
I thought it was an interesting article, hence I posted it here.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 06:44:08 PM
I can never understand why you guys live 60+ miles away from your workplace instead of moving closer which would mean less driving, fuel costs and more relaxed lifestyle.
That comment questioned why someone would live far away from their workplace and drive there and back home everyday.
It has nothing do with A/C. In fact the word "A/C" does not appear in that sentence at all. :huh:
I wasn't talking about A/C? Just about generally why the US uses the energy?
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on August 21, 2012, 05:10:38 AM
I wasn't talking about A/C? Just about generally why the US uses the energy?
It's pretty clear why they use more energy. More powerful and bigger and heavier cars and the longer drives to work and back home.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 21, 2012, 07:07:57 AM
It's pretty clear why they use more energy. More powerful and bigger and heavier cars and the longer drives to work and back home.
4 pages later you still don't get it. It goes way beyond cars. Energy here does not just mean gasoline.
And even within the automotive realm you still fail to see why higher fuel use in America is legitimate. You think all Americans drive big pickup trucks and demand insane performance based on what a few idiots on some other messageboards say. You have no idea and you perpetuate a very negative image of America. Its very annoying.
I live 26 miles away and drive a four cylinder compact sedan. Shove that up your stereotype hole and smoke it! It's even a stickshift!
I rode my fixed gear into work today. NY is basically Copenhagen.
But on the same note you have Texas where it's all farmlands and sprawl and every other person drives a pickup. ;)
I'm sure if given the chance, people from other countries had their own country magically expand in size by 20 fold, they may choose to not live like canned sardines and own a bit more space. :huh:
My dad works 12 miles from home, yet still in the same city. We can't afford to move closer, as home prices skyrocket as you get closer to his office in west Plano. Prices there are anywhere from $250,000 to the millions. The median home price in Plano is $280,000+. Our home is worth around $140,000.
I'd love to see Wimmer spend a summer in Texas or Oklahoma without air conditioning.
Wimmer spent 2 weeks here. During that time, he prob doesn't remember needing A/C. So its probably not necessary.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 21, 2012, 04:16:29 PM
Wimmer spent 2 weeks here. During that time, he prob doesn't remember needing A/C. So its probably not necessary.
Notice I said Texas or Oklahoma during the summer.
SA was being facetious. ;)
Quote from: CJ on August 21, 2012, 03:30:52 PM
I'd love to see Wimmer spend a summer in Texas or Oklahoma without air conditioning.
Um, the heat in Texas/Oklahoma is different than the heat in most of Europe during the summer. The summers in Central Europe are bearable without A/C. I doubt that's the case in Texas.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=27932.msg1767428#msg1767428 date=1345557493
I live 26 miles away and drive a four cylinder compact sedan. Shove that up your stereotype hole and smoke it! It's even a stickshift!
I used to drive a compact 4 cylinder hatchback.....that got 25 mpg on a good day.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 21, 2012, 05:50:00 PM
Um, the heat in Texas/Oklahoma is different than the heat in most of Europe during the summer. The summers in Central Europe are bearable without A/C. I doubt that's the case in Texas.
Tell that to the 44K frenchies that died in the 2004 heat wave and the other ~56K that died in europe.
Yesterday was 43 degrees Centigrade (109 F) in southern France.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 21, 2012, 05:50:00 PM
The summers in Central Europe are bearable without A/C. I doubt that's the case in Texas.
The word "bearable" stuck out to me. Tons of things are "bearable." Doesn't mean you should put up with them when society has invented a solution that provides you relief and comfort.
Quote from: SVT32V on August 21, 2012, 07:23:07 PM
Tell that to the 44K frenchies that died in the 2004 heat wave and the other ~56K that died in europe.
Yesterday was 43 degrees Centigrade (109 F) in southern France.
People die of heat waves all the time all over the word: in India, Europe hell even in America. And often the people that die are older folks who have not ingested water in a few hours. DRINK A LOT OF WATER AND YOU'LL BE FINE.
Quote from: TurboDan on August 21, 2012, 10:11:47 PM
The word "bearable" stuck out to me. Tons of things are "bearable." Doesn't mean you should put up with them when society has invented a solution that provides you relief and comfort.
Well, many Europeans feel they don't need it. It's as simple as that.
I'm sitting in my cool apartment right now with the windows open. It's hot outside (28 degrees C) but cool inside my apartment. I don't need an A/C to be honest.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 22, 2012, 06:46:05 AM
People die of heat waves all the time all over the word: in India, Europe hell even in America. And often the people that die are older folks who have not ingested water in a few hours. DRINK A LOT OF WATER AND YOU'LL BE FINE.
I would bet more people die in heat waves where there is no air conditioning :huh:
110 degrees w/high humidity... thats prob the limit of what most humans can deal with, healthy or not. But in the US such weather is normal for MONTHS in some places, prompting the use of A/C, which makes us use more energy :huh:
Quote from: CJ on August 21, 2012, 03:30:52 PM
My dad works 12 miles from home, yet still in the same city. We can't afford to move closer, as home prices skyrocket as you get closer to his office in west Plano. Prices there are anywhere from $250,000 to the millions. The median home price in Plano is $280,000+. Our home is worth around $140,000.
I'd love to see Wimmer spend a summer in Texas or Oklahoma without air conditioning.
I wish the median home prices in California was anywhere near the median home prices of TX.
Dude, I suffered from heat exhaustion when I went to a soccer match. And I drank a lot of water. A lot.
Go in the shade and drink a lot of water in the shade. :ohyeah:
Look, the heat here in summers isn't enough to convince most people to buy an A/C. Period. The summers are hot, but they're not that hot.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 22, 2012, 11:13:33 AM
Go in the shade and drink a lot of water in the shade. :ohyeah:
Look, the heat here in summers isn't enough to convince most people to buy an A/C. Period. The summers are hot, but they're not that hot.
Nobody said they were. In fact, I pulled up the weather data showing how much cooler European summers are than even summer up here in NYC. But summers here ARE hot enough to buy A/C. Which is why we use more energy :huh:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 16, 2012, 05:44:49 PM
U.S. has fewer cars per person than Europe, but still uses twice as much energy
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/08/arc-de-triomphe-opt.jpg)
Here's a shocking statistic: The United States has fewer cars per capita than Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Belgium, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and 16 other countries. Even more dramatic is one of the potential causes: A declining American middle class.
According to an Atlantic report on a new study conduct by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, we're ranked just 25th in the world in per-person car ownership. The actual number stands at 439 cars per 1,000 Americans. Further, the U.S. is an outlier when you compare the number of vehicles per capita to household consumption. While we have one of the highest rates of household spending, car buying is in decline here. It is this disparity that points to the widening income gap in the U.S. as a potential cause of our low rate of car ownership. Indeed, car ownership rates track with the size of a nation's middle class, according to the report.
To add insult to injury, despite our low rates of car ownership, Americans still consume roughly twice as much energy as most Europeans.
Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/15/u-s-has-fewer-cars-per-person-than-europe-but-still-uses-twice/
Damn Wimmer, you're back on your "Germany is superior" kick? :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 22, 2012, 06:49:12 AM
Well, many Europeans feel they don't need it. It's as simple as that.
I'm sitting in my cool apartment right now with the windows open. It's hot outside (28 degrees C) but cool inside my apartment. I don't need an A/C to be honest.
You have a different climate than we do.
Quote from: dazzleman on August 22, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
Damn Wimmer, you're back on your "Germany is superior" kick? :lol:
Not at all.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 22, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
Nobody said they were. In fact, I pulled up the weather data showing how much cooler European summers are than even summer up here in NYC. But summers here ARE hot enough to buy A/C. Which is why we use more energy :huh:
It also comes down to cultural differences.
Americans apparently FEEL THAT THEY NEED an A/C during the summers, most Europeans (especially those in Central and Northern Europe) FEEL THAT THEY DON'T NEED an A/C.
I would have liked A/C recently when the temperatures here in the UK were in the 90-100 range. And I think you'll find that most forms of public transport, public buildings and shops had their A/C on this summer in the UK. I would have struggled driving around without A/C too.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 23, 2012, 04:25:45 AM
It also comes down to cultural differences.
Americans apparently FEEL THAT THEY NEED an A/C during the summers, most Europeans (especially those in Central and Northern Europe) FEEL THAT THEY DON'T NEED an A/C.
You know why those in Central + Northern Europe don't use A/C? Because the climate is mild.
Come to the US during the summer, anywhere on the East Coast, or down by the Gulf of Mexico.... see how life w/o A/C is there. Get off this "Europeans are so much more sophisticated than Americans" crap, the differences are entirely due to climate.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 23, 2012, 04:25:45 AM
It also comes down to cultural differences.
Americans apparently FEEL THAT THEY NEED an A/C during the summers, most Europeans (especially those in Central and Northern Europe) FEEL THAT THEY DON'T NEED an A/C.
Uh no. It's fucking hot in most states. Hell, I'm two hours from the border and the average summer day where I am is just shy of 30 Celcius. This summer is above that mark here. They need A/C. People just don't have time around here to lounge about in the shade when it gets hot. We still have jobs to do. Imagine +41 outside and working inside of buildings with 100+ people in them. Warehouses, garages, office buildings...etc.
Of course, they could just not use A/C. Then the continent would just act like Spain. We'd take the whole afternoon off. :nutty:
Summers in Germany suck.
I spent a month of 2005 in a hot classroom with no A/C where people thought it was a good idea to bring in a full size refrigerator. (which was pumping non-stop because other classrooms kept their water in OUR fridge and so the door was open 50% of the time.)
We also did a lot of running around in the woods playing wargames.
For those keeping track, 2005 was one of those record-breaking hot summers in Europe..
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 23, 2012, 04:25:45 AM
It also comes down to cultural differences.
Americans apparently FEEL THAT THEY NEED an A/C during the summers, most Europeans (especially those in Central and Northern Europe) FEEL THAT THEY DON'T NEED an A/C.
Come down south in the hot months and tell me you don't need A/C. You wouldn't last a day.
It be even worse on you with all that extra skin you've got.
Quote from: Onslaught on August 23, 2012, 07:16:17 PM
Come down south in the hot months and tell me you don't need A/C. You wouldn't last a day.
It be even worse on you with all that extra skin you've got.
:lol:
Air conditioning has played a direct role in the economic revitalization of the south, IMO.
Quote from: dazzleman on August 23, 2012, 08:00:06 PM
:lol:
Air conditioning has played a direct role in the economic revitalization of the south, IMO.
Yea, they need to put that shit in where I work.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 23, 2012, 06:24:48 PM
Summers in Germany suck.
I spent a month of 2005 in a hot classroom with no A/C where people thought it was a good idea to bring in a full size refrigerator. (which was pumping non-stop because other classrooms kept their water in OUR fridge and so the door was open 50% of the time.)
We also did a lot of running around in the woods playing wargames.
For those keeping track, 2005 was one of those record-breaking hot summers in Europe..
You should have just drank the water.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 23, 2012, 05:39:35 PM
You know why those in Central + Northern Europe don't use A/C? Because the climate is mild.
Come to the US during the summer, anywhere on the East Coast, or down by the Gulf of Mexico.... see how life w/o A/C is there. Get off this "Europeans are so much more sophisticated than Americans" crap, the differences are entirely due to climate.
Dude, last two summers have been brutal. 100F+ and so humid you swim to your car, not walk. Anyone who walks into that and doesn't want AC is psychotic.
Wimmer is just not understanding the difference ocean currents can have an effect on the weather. On the east coasts, either in the US or Asia, the summers are HOT and HUMID. With high temp and humidity, you can be sitting in the shade and still be sweating.
Hell, Wimmer, you used to be in the Philippines, you should know what crappy weather that is.
But on the other hand, in areas with mild climate, you don't need A/C at all. I know probably 90% of the houses in my area has no A/C. But then again, the hottest day of this summer so far was 78 degrees according to weather forcasts. But then again, just 5 miles away, the temp went up to 88, so... :huh: Desert weather for ya..
Why are we still arguing? :huh:
I GET IT THAT THE SUMMERS VARY IN THE US DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE. I GET THAT. I GET THAT FOR SOME AREAS AND A/C MAKES SENSE.
All I am saying is that here most people don't see a need for a home A/C since the summers are mild and tolerable and not as hot as elsewhere. Also, most people here lust for the heat and summers after a cold winter and cool spring.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:06:51 PM
Why are we still arguing? :huh:
Theres no argument, people are just pointing out the absurdity in the following statement
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 23, 2012, 04:25:45 AM
It also comes down to cultural differences.
Americans apparently FEEL THAT THEY NEED an A/C during the summers, most Europeans (especially those in Central and Northern Europe) FEEL THAT THEY DON'T NEED an A/C.
In other words, you seem to be claiming Americans have a lower tolerance or heat or needlessly use A/C when they don't "have" to, which runs counter to the backpedaling you engaged in here:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:06:51 PM
I GET IT THAT THE SUMMERS VARY IN THE US DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE. I GET THAT. I GET THAT FOR SOME AREAS AND A/C MAKES SENSE.
This directly contracticts the claim that the difference is "cultural". ":huh:"
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 24, 2012, 12:15:06 PM
In other words, you seem to be claiming Americans have a lower tolerance or heat or needlessly use A/C when they don't "have" to, which runs counter to the backpedaling you engaged in here:
I'm sure that if you were here in Europe right now, you'd be crying for an A/C whereas the majority of Europeans wouldn't.
Sure, I realize the heat varies in different places but Northern and Central Europe have tolerable summers. Most people are not going to buy an A/C. There are days when it's really hot where an A/C could be a wonderful thing, but those days are rare. You're looking at an entire week or two in the summer for that kind of weather and it doesn't warrant the cost of buying an A/C which will never be used for the majority of the year.
Seattle is A/C weather for 2 weeks. Fortunately, the mild climate in Seattle is also optimal for heat pumps during the winter. Heat pumps can also function as very effective air conditioners.
I think Europe's lack of A/C is probably due to folks dwelling in older structures that lack central heating.
Quote from: Laconian on August 24, 2012, 12:30:47 PM
I think Europe's lack of A/C is probably due to folks dwelling in older structures that lack central heating.
When someone rents an apartment and wants an A/C, they have to pay for the costs of the A/C and the installation (tearing down walls etc.) and plumbing/wiring. When they move out to another apartment or different city, they're expected to take the A/C with them and thus have to pay for the de-installation.
I guess that's another reason why people don't want to invest in an A/C here. But generally it's simply not needed.
Spain, Portugal etc. might be a different story.
I don't think tenants go through that trouble in the States. Maybe the big difference in mentality is in rates of home ownership? O_o
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I'm sure that if you were here in Europe right now, you'd be crying for an A/C whereas the majority of Europeans wouldn't.
Sure, I realize the heat varies in different places but Northern and Central Europe have tolerable summers. Most people are not going to buy an A/C. There are days when it's really hot where an A/C could be a wonderful thing, but those days are rare. You're looking at an entire week or two in the summer for that kind of weather and it doesn't warrant the cost of buying an A/C which will never be used for the majority of the year.
If I were in Germany with your 28 degree temperatures, I'd roll with the windows down all day every day. That's really perfect. Bring a light jacket out for the evenings and all is good.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I'm sure that if you were here in Europe right now, you'd be crying for an A/C whereas the majority of Europeans wouldn't.
I will be in Europe in 2 weeks. I don't think some of the places we are staying in have A/C. My parents place in Ghana didn't have A/C. I didn't have A/C in my bedroom until I got my own place (so no A/C for ~23 years). And these were all in places as hot as, or way hotter than anywhere in Europe. Its 68 degrees in Munich right now. I can say with certainty I would not have the A/C on in such weather. I would open the window.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:25:19 PMSure, I realize the heat varies in different places but Northern and Central Europe have tolerable summers. Most people are not going to buy an A/C. There are days when it's really hot where an A/C could be a wonderful thing, but those days are rare. You're looking at an entire week or two in the summer for that kind of weather and it doesn't warrant the cost of buying an A/C which will never be used for the majority of the year.
Nobody is saying people in Europe need to have A/Cs. Either something is getting lost in translation or you are just talking in circles at this point.
But the POINT is, whether or not Americans "cry for A/C when they don't need it" is irrelevant. Most of America has much more severe weather than most of Europe, which warrants more energy use for A/C and heating. You seem to forget, most Americans are of European descent. America is just colder and hotter period than Europe. If you don't get it now too bad, I am done here
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I'm sure that if you were here in Europe right now, you'd be crying for an A/C whereas the majority of Europeans wouldn't.
How many time do we need to come over there and kick Europe's ass before you realize we're all bad asses over here?
If it's not hot then we don't turn on our A/C either. Why would you? I've got about one month in the spring and another in the fall here that I don't use heat or air.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 22, 2012, 06:49:12 AM
Well, many Europeans feel they don't need it. It's as simple as that.
I'm sitting in my cool apartment right now with the windows open. It's hot outside (28 degrees C) but cool inside my apartment. I don't need an A/C to be honest.
Not to add fuel to an already out of control fire here; but european buildings and homes are generally better built than the wood and drywall boxes we live in in the US; and that can make a huge difference on how well a building fares without ac.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 24, 2012, 12:34:49 PM
When someone rents an apartment and wants an A/C, they have to pay for the costs of the A/C and the installation (tearing down walls etc.) and plumbing/wiring. When they move out to another apartment or different city, they're expected to take the A/C with them and thus have to pay for the de-installation.
Why wouldn't they just get a window A/C?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2012, 03:33:15 PM
Not to add fuel to an already out of control fire here; but european buildings and homes are generally better built than the wood and drywall boxes we live in in the US; and that can make a huge difference on how well a building fares without ac.
That's true, my wood house is a huge novelty to French people. Maison en bois!!!
Quote from: Laconian on August 24, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
That's true, my wood house is a huge novelty to French people. Maison en bois!!!
Take a drive thorough texas someday and what you'lllikely see are suburbs where the same design of house that's built in Seattle is built in Dallas, or Denver, or Fargo.
Think about how nuts that is for a second.
Look at the older houses in southern texas: at the big overhanging roofs and large porches- for hundreds of years nobody in their right mind would build a house without a porch in Texas.
In the south: the old houses are built at the bottom of the hills, usually in a wooded grove, the new ones are boxes on top of the hills.
With the advent of A/C and cheap energy, a lot of common sense in house design went out the window.
I get it.
Let's change the topic.
Sarah Palin is smoking hot!
Discuss!
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 25, 2012, 05:41:35 AM
I get it.
Let's change the topic.
Sarah Palin is smoking hot!
Discuss!
Not really. Not anymore anyway. At one time she was but she's lost it now.
Quote from: Onslaught on August 25, 2012, 06:28:53 AM
Not really. Not anymore anyway. At one time she was but she's lost it now.
She still looks great. Her 15 minutes of fame are over, not her hotness. At least not yet.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 25, 2012, 05:41:35 AM
I get it.
Let's change the topic.
Sarah Palin is smoking hot!
Discuss!
Speaking of changing the subject, I've been meaning to ask you Wimmer, are you circumicised? Do you think baby boys should be? :devil:
Quote from: dazzleman on August 25, 2012, 06:37:57 AM
Speaking of changing the subject, I've been meaning to ask you Wimmer, are you circumicised? Do you think baby boys should be? :devil:
Thank god no. I am intact and loving it. :praise:
So you can bet that if I ever meet Sarah Palin she'll be satisfied with me as her lover. :devil:
Quote from: dazzleman on August 25, 2012, 06:37:17 AM
She still looks great. Her 15 minutes of fame are over, not her hotness. At least not yet.
If she was still in office I'd say she looked better then most. But now that she's just and idiot on the tv I hold her to a different standard. So now she's no longer hot and just ok at best.
If she was in office now she would have aged about 15 years like Obama did
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 25, 2012, 09:46:53 AM
If she was in office now she would have aged about 15 years like Obama did
I doubt she'd have aged that much as Alaska governor.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 25, 2012, 09:46:53 AM
If she was in office now she would have aged about 15 years like Obama did
It really is amazing how the presidency takes a toll on all these guys. Clinton didn't get it too bad, but Bush II and Obama both looked (look) ridiculously older by the end of their first terms.
Quote from: TurboDan on August 24, 2012, 07:52:22 PM
Why wouldn't they just get a window A/C?
Europeans don't have windows. They're sources of heat loss in the winter and heat gain in the summer. Windows are wasteful bourgeois American things that Europeans are too forward-thinking to bother having.
Quote from: 93JC on August 25, 2012, 11:21:51 AM
Europeans don't have windows. They're sources of heat loss in the winter and heat gain in the summer. Windows are wasteful bourgeois American things that Europeans are too forward-thinking to bother having.
:lol:
Quote from: mzziaz on August 25, 2012, 11:26:44 AM
:lol:
Do you have a grass roof on your house? I thought they were pretty cool when I was in Norway.
Quote from: 93JC on August 25, 2012, 11:21:51 AM
Europeans don't have windows. They're sources of heat loss in the winter and heat gain in the summer. Windows are wasteful bourgeois American things that Europeans are too forward-thinking to bother having.
Windows are heavily taxed here. There's no need for them!
Lol man they have you guys whipped good
Also, european women save energy by refusing to shave their ampits.
Heat storage
Also consider all of the plastic saved by not using deodorant.
Quote from: dazzleman on August 25, 2012, 11:41:53 AM
Do you have a grass roof on your house? I thought they were pretty cool when I was in Norway.
No, but I would have considered it if I built a new one. Cutting the grass might be a bitch, though.
I thought the idea was that you didn't have to...
Quote from: 93JC on August 26, 2012, 01:51:19 AM
I thought the idea was that you didn't have to...
Nah, trees and shit will start growing there if you dont cut it.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on August 25, 2012, 07:41:14 PM
Lol man they have you guys whipped good
Whipping is taxed here.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 26, 2012, 03:33:18 AM
Nah, trees and shit will start growing there if you dont cut it.
Then you can build a tree house on your roof!