Been in Paris for the honeymoon, loving it. Just chilling now, regrouping.
Anyways the car system here makes so much more sense. I didn't get it till now. But seeing it in action makes so much more sense. What is the point of a Camry or Accord when something 1000 lb lighter, $5000 cheaper and 10-15 mpg more efficient would do 99% of the time? I realized there its a very rational/functional psychology about transportation here that makes so much more sense when I started to see so many folks on goofy ass scooters... people here are way less tired up in the image their cars project.
I'm sure the $10/gallon gas doesn't help, but even without that I wouldn't mind driving one of those little Twingos or whatever. Way more fun, easy, and cheap to drive with pretty much no downsides. I think the only thing I would want its some American style t torque from a little baby turbo. I think we are missing out.
I am renting a Fiat Punto for or time in Italy so I guess I will get to see if its all bullshit. I'm excited though. Haven't driven a stickshift car in over 2 years. Not looking forward to whatever gas its gonna cost. Got another exciting thing coming but I will report on that when I get back
Have fun!
Where will you be going with the Panda?
We will be hitting the car museums around Bologna and relaxing in Tuscany. Wifey hooked it up
I've always gotten why Europeans drive small cars.
What I don't get is why they don't get that Americans drive big ones.
+1
One of the most memorable car journeys of my life was behind the wheel of a 1.0 litre three cylinder Vauxhall Corsa. I wanted to slip it into my luggage and take it home! Travel does indeed broaden the mind and it's something everyone should try to experience. I think if more Americans went to Europe and spent some time there, we would have a lot fewer ill-informed, narrow-minded and painfully stupid people in this country.
Bon voyage, Monsieur Sporty!
Quote from: Raza on September 10, 2012, 09:32:02 AM
I've always gotten why Europeans drive small cars.
What I don't get is why they don't get that Americans drive big ones.
What's gained from a Golf over a Polo? A Passat over a Golf?
Most people commute solo. You yourself rationalized getting a two seated as a daily driver. Something like a big ass Impala seems like a huge waste.
I agree completely. Thanks
Quote from: Madman on September 10, 2012, 10:55:14 AM
One of the most memorable car journeys of my life was behind the wheel of a 1.0 litre three cylinder Vauxhall Corsa. I wanted to slip it into my luggage and take it home! Travel does indeed broaden the mind and it's something everyone should try to experience. I think if more Americans went to Europe and spent some time there, we would have a lot fewer ill-informed, narrow-minded and painfully stupid people in this country.
Bon voyage, Monsieur Sporty!
$10 gas helps?
If we had European gas prices, European car prices, and European roads (plus European public transport options), people here would relax their fears about "image" as well.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:21:37 PM
What's gained from a Golf over a Polo? A Passat over a Golf?
Most people commute solo. You yourself rationalized getting a two seated as a daily driver. Something like a big ass Impala seems like a huge waste.
Please don't turn into a second Wimmer.
I am not even saying everyone should drive a penalty box. Just thinking, people are overextending themselves more and more to get cars they can't afford. I forget what the median transaction value is for new cars in the US, but its high, like mid thirties. Avg household income is like high forties. How is it logical to commit a years takehome to a depreciating asset? We are slaves to image
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:40:25 PM
I am not even saying everyone should drive a penalty box. Just thinking, people are overextending themselves more and more to get cars they can't afford. I forget what the median transaction value is for new cars in the US, but its high, like mid thirties. Avg household income is like high forties. How is it logical to commit a years takehome to a depreciating asset? We are slaves to image
While true, the point is we aren't forced into our penalty boxes (as much) and we're better for it, imo.
Quote from: Lebowski on September 10, 2012, 04:36:11 PM
$10 gas helps?
If we had European gas prices, European car prices, and European roads (plus European public transport options), people here would relax their fears about "image" as well.
Helps as in drives. I still think their gas taxes are oppressive and ridiculous. But so its a $400 car note on a $3000/mo income.... with more than one car in the driveway
Quote from: Xer0 on September 10, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
While true, the point is we aren't forced into our penalty boxes (as much) and we're better for it, imo.
What good is freedom when you use it only to exercise your right to feed your insecurity and poor choices
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:49:49 PM
What good is freedom when you use it only to exercise your right to feed your insecurity and poor choices
Just because you don't approve of something doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to buy it. Thats the whole point of freedom.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:49:49 PM
What good is freedom when you use it only to exercise your right to feed your insecurity and poor choices
Stop being a douche.
I had a Focus for 4 years and despite the fact that I miss it, selling it and getting a bigger sedan was a great decision. The Focus was simply too small for a family of 4. It was painful going anywhere with all 4 of us in that car. Especially if we had to take anything with us or if we were going shopping.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 10, 2012, 04:56:45 PM
Stop being a douche.
I had a Focus for 4 years and despite the fact that I miss it, selling it and getting a bigger sedan was a great decision. The Focus was simply too small for a family of 4. It was painful going anywhere with all 4 of us in that car. Especially if we had to take anything with us or if we were going shopping.
Shoulda sold and acquired one to park next to it. ;) :lol:
I'm not sure but I wonder how many Germans trade in as soon as it's paid off? or how many buy cash for older used cars?
(Although I undertand their tax system penalizes you for owning an older car..)
Enjoy the drive, Sporty. I had a tremendous amount of fun pushing a 120i 6MT around the Swiss Alps a few short months ago.
Oh boy, he's "enlightened."
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:45:41 PM
Helps as in drives. I still think their gas taxes are oppressive and ridiculous. But so its a $400 car note on a $3000/mo income.... with more than one car in the driveway
It's not your $400/mo they're spending, so who cares? :huh:
I like small cars too, but tax-inflated $10 gas and being relegated to the likes of a Twingo is not my idea of what should result from an "enlightened" society.
Have fun your travels, Sporty............... just watch for the speed cameras, they are everywhere in Italy! (but there are generally warning signs a few hundred metres before the grey box on the side of the road).
Quote from: Colin on September 11, 2012, 01:18:18 AM
Have fun your travels, Sporty............... just watch for the speed cameras, they are everywhere in Italy! (but there are generally warning signs a few hundred metres before the grey box on the side of the road).
You can also subscribe to warning if you use smartphone based gps.
Quote from: 850CSi on September 10, 2012, 10:22:43 PM
Enjoy the drive, Sporty. I had a tremendous amount of fun pushing a 120i 6MT around the Swiss Alps a few short months ago.
WHY NOT THE 135i???? :lol: Thanks I am looking forward to it. I am curious to see who here has actually driven one of these little cars here.
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 10, 2012, 10:56:18 PM
Oh boy, he's "enlightened."
Have you driven one of these cars?
Quote from: SVT666 on September 10, 2012, 04:56:45 PM
Stop being a douche.
I had a Focus for 4 years and despite the fact that I miss it, selling it and getting a bigger sedan was a great decision. The Focus was simply too small for a family of 4. It was painful going anywhere with all 4 of us in that car. Especially if we had to take anything with us or if we were going shopping.
Your G37 was not a bad purchase. You bought it used, you bought within your budget, its price is nowhere near your annual household income even new. Read what I wrote, it really doesn't apply to anyone here, don't take it personal.
Also, admittedly (though anecdotally) I am thinking the city might be more young single people or super small families, and they may have different child seat laws something as small as a Twingo can work here. It might be different in the suburbs, but even still, they def don't do cars as big as Camries with the regularity we do. Also Fit + Fiesta (and DEFINITELY the Versa) seem bigger than even their competitors here. And in any case, my mom and dad made do w/3 young kids and two smallish sedans (Camry + Corolla) for years. Actually my mom had a Corolla FX hatchback w/stickshift after my little sister (3rd kid) was born. We took numerous trips in my dad's 89 Camry All Trac.
Quote from: TurboDan on September 10, 2012, 11:59:37 PM
I like small cars too, but tax-inflated $10 gas and being relegated to the likes of a Twingo is not my idea of what should result from an "enlightened" society.
False premise, never called them enlightened, said twice here and numerous times elsewhere the fuel taxes in Europe are bullshit. Will also go ahead and say the rise in popularity of B segment cars in the US is good. Still doesn't change or rationalize the fact the that the most popular cars in America are comically oversized and unaffordable for the avg American family
Avg purchase size is $31K
www.autoblog.com/2012/04/11/average-price-of-new-cars-hits-all-time-record/
Avg annual ownership cost is $9K
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/04/average-cost-of-car-ownership-rises-to-8-946-per-year/
Avg monthly payment is $475/mo
Avg household income is about $51K (~4300/mo)
Most people HAVE to finance (for longer and longer terms... IOW they CAN'T afford the cars they are buying)
Most homes have 2+ cars... you do the math
Quote from: Xer0 on September 10, 2012, 04:36:48 PM
Please don't turn into a second Wimmer.
I have a twin brother? Shit! Introduce me to him!
Small cars are actually popular here not only because of expensive gas but because they're practical and easy to live with in the city (parking, zippier etc.). In fact my dad just called me yesterday to tell me that he checked out the new Mercedes A-Class in the showroom and fell in love with it. Once the first used cars come unto the market he said he might seriously consider one - diesel of course. An E-Class is simply to big for him and my mother now that the kids have moved out.
Enjoy your European roadtrip. :ohyeah:
Yea the new A is really cool. A big turbodiesel motor would give it some nice highway punch too. I could def see one being a nice whip around here.
I think small cars could succeed in the US if they were just designed + marketed towards the US rather than adapted. Give it a big interior (like the Versa) with a torquey but fuel efficient gas engine, and style it so it looks upmarket... people would be lined up around the corner for it. I'm honestly surprised nobody has broke the 40MPG highway barrier convincingly yet, but I'm sure its coming. Manufacturers are already beginning to cut weight and shrink down (new Accord is appreciably smaller than its replacement for example, Golf is bigger but much lighter), so I think more focus on the B segment is inevitable.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 04:21:37 PM
What's gained from a Golf over a Polo? A Passat over a Golf?
Most people commute solo. You yourself rationalized getting a two seated as a daily driver. Something like a big ass Impala seems like a huge waste.
I live alone, don't have a girlfriend, don't own a home, and only have 5 friends. It's not like my life comes with a lot of baggage. And we can all agree that I'm far from indicative of the typical American mindset.
But others do. Some people are physically larger. I'm only 5'8" and fit comfortably in basically any car. My friend who just bought a Passat had a hard time being comfortable in any of the compacts, even roomier compacts, that he tried out. And, he has a wife, a dog, a close family (physically and otherwise), a home, and often carries the things that come with home ownership and working in the same office as your mother-in-law. His wife, on the other hand, commutes in a different direction and doesn't need to carry a lot of stuff with her, other than the broken dreams of those she prosecutes, so she drives an RSX. One larger car (that's still pretty fuel efficient) and one smaller car. That seems completely reasonable to me. The two cars fulfill their needs perfectly.
But as we've all said to Wimmer before, we don't get to define need for other people. Yes, I often question why one family has two SUVs, but it's not for me to decide that they don't need that.
One thing to consider--what's lost when you go from a Polo to a Golf? Marginal fuel economy for a relatively large gain in space? A Golf is 165.9" long; only about 5" longer than my two-seater. It's still easy to park, it's still fuel efficient, it still has good visibility, and it has a lot more usable space for passengers and cargo.
Why is the 3 series such a better proposition than the 1 series?
Quote from: TurboDan on September 10, 2012, 11:59:37 PM
I like small cars too, but tax-inflated $10 gas and being relegated to the likes of a Twingo is not my idea of what should result from an "enlightened" society.
Dude, I'd love a Twingo 133. Those things are awesome.
Please stop confounding me with Wimmer. I am not saying anyone has to do anything, nor am I saying the govt should make any car choices compulsory or "encouraged" through taxation. I am just questioning the psychology behind the American auto market. There are a lot of good trends in the US. For example the growth & growth of investment into the B-segment. The fact that Americans are holding onto cars longer and buying more used cars (hence the seemingly permanent uptick in used car prices). In fact one could even say new car transaction prices are going up simply because only more affluent buyers are buying new.
But the top selling cars are Camrys and pickups. Luxury cars don't make up a big slice of the market. So I am still thinking there is a large contingent of Americans simply overbuying. Really what it comes down to is small cars aren't that bad. They are more tuned to the kind of driving Americans actually do. I mean look at the avg occupancy per trip
(http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/images/facts/fotw613.gif)
In that context the added utility of something like an Accord over a Civic really isn't there. And when you factor in that small hatchs/wagons generally have way more utility than sedans (in the case of your buddy for example) its a mystery as to why such cars have never caught on.
At the end of the day does it affect me directly? No, I will probably buy a very used 200SX SE-R for myself and something newer but frugal for wifey. But given the US's general economic malaise, the rising costs of gasoline and general environmental issues it wouldn't be bad for the US to become more green in its car choices. After all, driving is a privilege, not a right... though of course that doesn't mean the govt should use shame as a basis for absolutely hammering folks who want to drive- especially in a country where driving is so much more integral to daily life and the national economy. I just think we might be set too far over on the consumption side in the context of our long term interests... and being here has shown me that erring on the side of conservation doesnt have to be miserable :huh:
Fuel economy gains are pretty insignificant when choosing between a Golf and a Polo. The cost of the vehicle itself isn't huge either. Parking isn't at a premium here like it is over there. :huh:
And plan and simple, I drive 4 hours in my BRZ waaaaay more often than I would ever do something like that in Europe.
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 10, 2012, 10:56:18 PM
Oh boy, he's "enlightened."
:lol: :clap: Exactly.
Come to think of it, as a percentage, I've carpooled WAY more often in the Z4 than I ever did in the Jetta.
That's weird.
For me personally, I decided to buy an SUV rather than a small car because I'm a single guy. There are many times when I need to haul shit places by myself, tow a boat by myself or bring fishing stuff to marinas or even off-road up to the beach. Granted, that might not be completely typical, but I needed a larger vehicle that could "do it all" because I really don't have any other options at this point. I loved my Passat but I wasn't able to do everything I needed to do with it. Making multiple trips places and walking a mile down the beach carrying tons of fishing rods and equipment got old.
If I was, say, married or something, ideally my presumably non-enthusiast wife would drive a larger vehicle and I'd get something like Raza's Z4 or a GTI, and we could switch when necessary.
Given the choice & the resources (infrastructure & money), Europeans would drive bigger cars if they could, & thereby enjoy them as part of a higher standard of living.
Yes, I'm sure they'd all be driving Escalades and pick-ups if they could. ;)
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 11, 2012, 12:27:05 PM
Yes, I'm sure they'd all be driving Escalades and pick-ups if they could. ;)
Yeah, but they would be debadging their trucks and slapping on a 1.2L sticker on there with Hybrid so angry eco-communists don't destroy their trucks out of jealousy.
The thing with Europe though is, the road is a lot narrower than typical American roads, so a big car wouldn't be able to fit properly. Parking's an even greater premium not to mention smaller than in the US so a big car doesn't make a lot of since. And I'm sure people don't typically treat their cars as their second homes where they keep half their belonging on their cars like they do in the US, since crime rate is on average higher in Europe than in the US. (When was the last time you heard about someone getting pick pocketed in the US?)
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 10, 2012, 08:55:40 AM
Been in Paris for the honeymoon, loving it. Just chilling now, regrouping.
Been to the Louvre yet?
Quote from: TurboDan on September 11, 2012, 09:13:24 AM
For me personally, I decided to buy an SUV rather than a small car because I'm a single guy. There are many times when I need to haul shit places by myself, tow a boat by myself or bring fishing stuff to marinas or even off-road up to the beach. Granted, that might not be completely typical, but I needed a larger vehicle that could "do it all" because I really don't have any other options at this point. I loved my Passat but I wasn't able to do everything I needed to do with it. Making multiple trips places and walking a mile down the beach carrying tons of fishing rods and equipment got old.
That's exactly why I bought an SUV instead of another sports car as well. They're like a swiss army knife when you're single.
Bah, we were in France at the same time? I'm back in the US now, but that could've made for an unlikely GTG.
Also, make sure to sample the other 90% of the county, some of the small car advantages aren't nearly as clear cut. MPVs and SUVs abound in my In laws stomping grounds around Champagne.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 11, 2012, 11:34:36 AM
Given the choice & the resources (infrastructure & money), Europeans would drive bigger cars if they could, & thereby enjoy them as part of a higher standard of living.
Yup. But gas moneys are $8/gallon or more.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 11, 2012, 04:29:25 PM
Yup. But gas moneys are $8/gallon or more.
Artificially. The gas prices in Europe could be nearly equivalent to the gas prices in the US with the stroke of a pen.
First rule of building a luxury car. Build it bigger that the econobox your sales prospect was driving during his penniless days in med school. Similarly, wealthy people do not aspire to one-bedroom apartments when moving up the property ladder.
Space is good. My UK relatives always try to rent the biggest vehicle they can when they visit the US.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 11, 2012, 11:34:36 AM
Given the choice & the resources (infrastructure & money), Europeans would drive bigger cars if they could, & thereby enjoy them as part of a higher standard of living.
"Bigger cars" is subjective. To the average European a VW Passat is a practical and roomy (BIG) vehicle.
Also, parking spaces and narrow roads are a problem. European cars have already grown in all dimensions over the last decade -especially width. That's problematic enough for most people to deal with in daily situations. A bigger car, even if gas were cheap, has still zero appeal to most people here who are realistic.
The company that sells American SUVs and muscle cars here allows me to drive their cars. I drove a new Dodge Durango V6 through Munich once and I HATED IT. The car was fun outside of the city, but its sheer size made driving in Munich, especially in areas with a lot of human activity, unpleasant. To big.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 12, 2012, 08:45:31 AM
"Bigger cars" is subjective. To the average European a VW Passat is a practical and roomy (BIG) vehicle.
Also, parking spaces and narrow roads are a problem. European cars have already grown in all dimensions over the last decade -especially width. That's problematic enough for most people to deal with in daily situations. A bigger car, even if gas were cheap, has still zero appeal to most people here who are realistic.
The company that sells American SUVs and muscle cars here allows me to drive their cars. I drove a new Dodge Durango V6 through Munich once and I HATED IT. The car was fun outside of the city, but its sheer size made driving in Munich, especially in areas with a lot of human activity, unpleasant. To big.
I hate driving large vehicles in big cities too, but my Ford Explorer isn't too big. My Dodge Ram was too big. That thing sucked in the city.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 09:53:42 AM
I hate driving large vehicles in big cities too, but my Ford Explorer isn't too big. My Dodge Ram was too big. That thing sucked in the city.
I'm sure one can get used to it, but I still prefer a smaller car for city life. A BMW 1-Series is perfect in that regard and can still fit into most parking spaces - barely.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 12, 2012, 09:59:40 AM
I'm sure one can get used to it, but I still prefer a smaller car for city life. A BMW 1-Series is perfect in that regard and can still fit into most parking spaces - barely.
I found the Infiniti G37 perfect in size for Vancouver when I drove it down there. There are plenty of people driving F-150s though.
How many small cars in Europe have ridiculously boosted electric power steering now?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 12, 2012, 08:45:31 AM
"Bigger cars" is subjective. To the average European a VW Passat is a practical and roomy (BIG) vehicle.
Also, parking spaces and narrow roads are a problem. European cars have already grown in all dimensions over the last decade -especially width. That's problematic enough for most people to deal with in daily situations. A bigger car, even if gas were cheap, has still zero appeal to most people here who are realistic.
The company that sells American SUVs and muscle cars here allows me to drive their cars. I drove a new Dodge Durango V6 through Munich once and I HATED IT. The car was fun outside of the city, but its sheer size made driving in Munich, especially in areas with a lot of human activity, unpleasant. To big.
The problem is, you're driving a Durango. That thing sucks in both the city and the country. But considering how majority of Americans lives in a suburban environment and a great portion commute to work in another similarly suburban environment, contacts to with high pedestrian traffic is rare as is city traffic. So it's not a big deal. And parking's not such a big deal, worse case scenario is what happens in the bad parking thread.
Quote from: NomisR on September 12, 2012, 10:48:30 AM
The problem is, you're driving a Durango. That thing sucks in both the city and the country. But considering how majority of Americans lives in a suburban environment and a great portion commute to work in another similarly suburban environment, contacts to with high pedestrian traffic is rare as is city traffic. So it's not a big deal. And parking's not such a big deal, worse case scenario is what happens in the bad parking thread.
The Durango doesn't suck in the country.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 10:52:58 AM
The Durango doesn't suck in the country.
depends on how you drive it I guess. But I've never been a fan of vehicles high of the road.
Quote from: NomisR on September 12, 2012, 11:08:19 AM
depends on how you drive it I guess. But I've never been a fan of vehicles high of the road.
It's not supposed to be a sports car. It's a 4x4 SUV. :nutty:
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 10:52:58 AM
The Durango doesn't suck in the country.
The Durango sucks everywhere! :evildude:
Got the Panda today. Pretty gutless. But really nimble and quick enough for these streets. Actually pretty roomy inside too, w/enough trunk to handle our luggage. I would def have preferred a turbodiesel for more torque, but if you keep it in the right gear it gets out of its own way. I DEFINITELY see why folks were so enamored with the Panda 100... w/more grunt and a sharper suspension this thing would be downright FUN.
Narrower roads are def an issue, you really have to use the whole road. I REALLY miss the Kawi right now, the roads out here in Tuscany are incredible!!!!!
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 11:32:47 AM
It's not supposed to be a sports car. It's a 4x4 SUV. :nutty:
So unless you're offroading, it sucks... and no vehicle is any fun to drive when you're towing shit.
Quote from: NomisR on September 12, 2012, 03:28:37 PM
So unless you're offroading, it sucks... and no vehicle is any fun to drive when you're towing shit.
The Durango is a really nice vehicle. It's not a sports car and if that's what you want then you don't want a Durango. Doesn't mean it sucks.
Quote from: NomisR on September 12, 2012, 03:28:37 PM
So unless you're offroading, it sucks... and no vehicle is any fun to drive when you're towing shit.
True. Even semi-trucks are more fun without a trailer.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
The Durango is a really nice vehicle. It's not a sports car and if that's what you want then you don't want a Durango. Doesn't mean it sucks.
How can you make driving the Durango "fun"? Nice drive =/= fun. (Fun is used by Wimmer)
Driving anything in a crowded city is no fun.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
The Durango is a really nice vehicle. It's not a sports car and if that's what you want then you don't want a Durango. Doesn't mean it sucks.
But does it suck as an SUV? That's the question.
Quote from: Raza on September 12, 2012, 03:49:28 PM
But does it suck as an SUV? That's the question.
My mom had one for years. It did not suck as an SUV. It towed anything we tried to tow, it hauled a lot of shit, and it was dead reliable. The interior probably wasn't the greatest, but it wasn't too bad. American interiors of that time sucked in general, so...
IMO, it's the best SUV in it's class right now.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 12, 2012, 04:20:20 PM
IMO, it's the best SUV in it's class right now.
Yeah, I agree. Neighbor has one and it looks awesome. I suggested my mom test out the new one, but she wanted something smaller.
Quote from: TurboDan on September 12, 2012, 10:52:57 PM
Yeah, I agree. Neighbor has one and it looks awesome. I suggested my mom test out the new one, but she wanted something smaller.
Compass!
I'm sorry, that was a terribly unfunny joke.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 12, 2012, 10:55:01 PM
Compass!
I'm sorry, that was a terribly unfunny joke.
Ha, my uncle actually has one of those. Interior's nothing great but it's reliable as all hell and gets pretty good MPG with his long daily commute. He always drove pickups beforehand.
Quote from: TurboDan on September 12, 2012, 11:07:44 PM
Ha, my uncle actually has one of those. Interior's nothing great but it's reliable as all hell and gets pretty good MPG with his long daily commute. He always drove pickups beforehand.
Facelift models aren't horrible, but it's not my first choice.
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 12, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
Driving anything in a crowded city is no fun.
That really depends. I would say driving anything in traffic is no fun. When things are moving it can be quite alright.
The new Durangos are very attractive. I was blown away when I first saw them, and thought they were something German rather than from DCX.
You get it now? I thought you've always been questioning the size of the cars Americans buy.. like the Camry, SUVs, etc...
Quote from: TurboDan on September 11, 2012, 09:13:24 AM
For me personally, I decided to buy an SUV rather than a small car because I'm a single guy. There are many times when I need to haul shit places by myself, tow a boat by myself or bring fishing stuff to marinas or even off-road up to the beach. Granted, that might not be completely typical, but I needed a larger vehicle that could "do it all" because I really don't have any other options at this point. I loved my Passat but I wasn't able to do everything I needed to do with it. Making multiple trips places and walking a mile down the beach carrying tons of fishing rods and equipment got old.
If I was, say, married or something, ideally my presumably non-enthusiast wife would drive a larger vehicle and I'd get something like Raza's Z4 or a GTI, and we could switch when necessary.
+1
I would have a hard time getting on w/o having my 4runner. If I was married I could make my wife drive a minivan or something and just use that when I need the space.
You people make me sick.
I have seen the light
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 12, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
Driving anything in a crowded city is no fun.
I don't know, an M1A1 Abrams would be pretty fun. :evildude:
My car will likely be the same size. Nothing a class up lights my fire, and everything a class down seems to be too impractical.
This thread makes me want to get myself a HMMWV
Would everyone stop referring to someone called a "European". I don't know who the hell you're talking about. Who is this European guy and where does he live?
Quote from: 2o6 on September 13, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
My car will likely be the same size. Nothing a class up lights my fire, and everything a class down seems to be too impractical.
I'm not sure I can go much smaller.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=28068.msg1778275#msg1778275 date=1347564241
I'm not sure I can go much smaller.
(http://www.todoroki-trading.com/image/cappuccino1.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 11, 2012, 11:34:36 AM
Given the choice & the resources (infrastructure & money), Europeans would drive bigger cars if they could, & thereby enjoy them as part of a higher standard of living.
So if people lived in a country that was the complete opposite of their own, they'd behave different? Wow. I never realised that.
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on September 13, 2012, 01:22:40 PM
Would everyone stop referring to someone called a "European". I don't know who the hell you're talking about. Who is this European guy and where does he live?
You!
Quote from: nickdrinkwater on September 13, 2012, 01:24:48 PM
So if people lived in a country that was the complete opposite of their own, they'd behave different? Wow. I never realised that.
Seems like there's plenty of people that still didn't and thinks Americans should all drive around in this instead
(http://britandgrit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/clown-car.jpg)
Take someones opinions beyond the realm of reason to show why they are "not valid"... very mature
Obviously if you are towing boats or hauling furniture or, like I already said, can legitimately afford and just want a huge car, who cares? But a lot of Americans overcommit financially to buy cars that don't fit their needs. With the country in the condition its in, as well as the various environmental and political issues surrounding oil, it wouldn't hurt the average American carbuyer to have access to and buy something like a Twingo. Anecdote alert... when I went up to CT to ride with my buddy, we went to a pizza shop where one of the delivery boys had just bought a brand new Camry SE. Again dude is free to do what he wants. But I can't help but wonder. How much is that car hurting his pockets, and given the nature of what he will use the car for, wouldn't it make 100x more sense to get something more fuel efficient? There's an element of shame and insecurity behind the US' consumption culture but I won't get into that here. Obv theres an element of shame in the draconian tax policies here as well but again that's another thread.
Even without the taxes though I think people here would buy smaller cars. I haven't even filled up my tank yet, but aside from that I still am glad I got this little thing instead of anything bigger. The roads out in the country here are downright treacherous and you absolutely need a car you can place 100% confidently. Even something a Corolla's size would be a little ponderous. I can't even imagine how those folks with big Audis and Benzes manage. There is never a time I drive this car that I don't appreciate its nature. And I can sit behind myself in relative comfort (I am a standard size American male).
Only real gripe is the damn motor. Gotta keep it on the boil on steep mountain roads, and my throttle blipping calibration is still set to "motorcycle" so downshifts with the vague ass clutch are choppy. The combo of slow revs + bigger gear ratio gaps require outright WOT stomps to get the blip necessary between 3rd and 2nd for example. I am going to go ahead and say if I ever come back to the mountains out in Western Europe I'm gonna try and get a turbo diesel. It works though.
I really feel for the typical Americans who come out here. There was a lady at the car rental station who was FRANTICALLY going from booth to booth trying to find a car with an automatic transmission. Welcome to Europe lady :evildude:
Sporty -- I think there is some middle ground. For example, I'd love the diesel version of my LR2, but I can't buy it here. Size, price and efficiency aren't always mutually exclusive.
And being that I have family who live in VERY rural Ireland, I know what old European roads can be like. It was a little bit of a shock to me the first time I was driving an RHD car on the "wrong" side of a road to get past a massive tractor, but I managed. Arguably, if I had my LR2, I could've just driven to the side, plowed over a couple of plants and let him by without worrying whether I'd be able to get un-stuck. It is what it is. The taxes over there are BS, and our historically-high vehicle sizes in the US are a bit of BS too.
But there are happy mediums. At the end of the day, my desire is that anyone should drive what they are comfortable driving with the least amount of government interference possible.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 01:01:17 AM
Take someones opinions beyond the realm of reason to show why they are "not valid"... very mature
Obviously if you are towing boats or hauling furniture or, like I already said, can legitimately afford and just want a huge car, who cares? But a lot of Americans overcommit financially to buy cars that don't fit their needs. With the country in the condition its in, as well as the various environmental and political issues surrounding oil, it wouldn't hurt the average American carbuyer to have access to and buy something like a Twingo. Anecdote alert... when I went up to CT to ride with my buddy, we went to a pizza shop where one of the delivery boys had just bought a brand new Camry SE. Again dude is free to do what he wants. But I can't help but wonder. How much is that car hurting his pockets, and given the nature of what he will use the car for, wouldn't it make 100x more sense to get something more fuel efficient? There's an element of shame and insecurity behind the US' consumption culture but I won't get into that here. Obv theres an element of shame in the draconian tax policies here as well but again that's another thread.
Even without the taxes though I think people here would buy smaller cars. I haven't even filled up my tank yet, but aside from that I still am glad I got this little thing instead of anything bigger. The roads out in the country here are downright treacherous and you absolutely need a car you can place 100% confidently. Even something a Corolla's size would be a little ponderous. I can't even imagine how those folks with big Audis and Benzes manage. There is never a time I drive this car that I don't appreciate its nature. And I can sit behind myself in relative comfort (I am a standard size American male).
Only real gripe is the damn motor. Gotta keep it on the boil on steep mountain roads, and my throttle blipping calibration is still set to "motorcycle" so downshifts with the vague ass clutch are choppy. The combo of slow revs + bigger gear ratio gaps require outright WOT stomps to get the blip necessary between 3rd and 2nd for example. I am going to go ahead and say if I ever come back to the mountains out in Western Europe I'm gonna try and get a turbo diesel. It works though.
I really feel for the typical Americans who come out here. There was a lady at the car rental station who was FRANTICALLY going from booth to booth trying to find a car with an automatic transmission. Welcome to Europe lady :evildude:
Twingo? I thought you had a Punto.
And To be fair, I keep reading that the Twingo plays second fiddle to pretty much everything else in the segment, except maybe the Spark. Seems like Panda, Ka, Picanto, i10 and AYGO beat it up.
And the lady looking for an automatic transmission sounds absolutely hilarious. Did she find one? Did she give up and cry. :lol:
Quote from: 2o6 on September 14, 2012, 06:04:19 AM
And To be fair, I keep reading that the Twingo plays second fiddle to pretty much everything else in the segment, except maybe the Spark. Seems like Panda, Ka, Picanto, i10 and AYGO beat it up.
Beat it up? I don't think so...
(http://www.gpeuropa.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/twingo-renault-sport-portada.jpg)
Quote from: Raza link=topic=28068.msg1778651#msg1778651 date=1347628218
Beat it up? I don't think so...
(http://www.gpeuropa.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/twingo-renault-sport-portada.jpg)
Quit bringing up that stupid sports model, not what we're talking about.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 14, 2012, 07:28:45 AM
Quit bringing up that stupid sports model, not what we're talking about.
You mean the awesome sports model? Reasonably priced, quick, fun? It's the one we should be talking about.
(http://photos.evo.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_614/car_photo_307388_25.jpg)
Using the RS to justify the whole lineup is like saying the Lancer is great cause of the Evo lmao
Alfa drivers are so aggressive. I salute their mastery of road AND machine, it's a sight to behold
I don't know what happened to that lady but I'm pretty sure she was fucked :lol:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 01:01:17 AM
Take someones opinions beyond the realm of reason to show why they are "not valid"... very mature
Obviously if you are towing boats or hauling furniture or, like I already said, can legitimately afford and just want a huge car, who cares? But a lot of Americans overcommit financially to buy cars that don't fit their needs. With the country in the condition its in, as well as the various environmental and political issues surrounding oil, it wouldn't hurt the average American carbuyer to have access to and buy something like a Twingo. Anecdote alert... when I went up to CT to ride with my buddy, we went to a pizza shop where one of the delivery boys had just bought a brand new Camry SE. Again dude is free to do what he wants. But I can't help but wonder. How much is that car hurting his pockets, and given the nature of what he will use the car for, wouldn't it make 100x more sense to get something more fuel efficient? There's an element of shame and insecurity behind the US' consumption culture but I won't get into that here. Obv theres an element of shame in the draconian tax policies here as well but again that's another thread.
Even without the taxes though I think people here would buy smaller cars. I haven't even filled up my tank yet, but aside from that I still am glad I got this little thing instead of anything bigger. The roads out in the country here are downright treacherous and you absolutely need a car you can place 100% confidently. Even something a Corolla's size would be a little ponderous. I can't even imagine how those folks with big Audis and Benzes manage. There is never a time I drive this car that I don't appreciate its nature. And I can sit behind myself in relative comfort (I am a standard size American male).
Only real gripe is the damn motor. Gotta keep it on the boil on steep mountain roads, and my throttle blipping calibration is still set to "motorcycle" so downshifts with the vague ass clutch are choppy. The combo of slow revs + bigger gear ratio gaps require outright WOT stomps to get the blip necessary between 3rd and 2nd for example. I am going to go ahead and say if I ever come back to the mountains out in Western Europe I'm gonna try and get a turbo diesel. It works though.
I really feel for the typical Americans who come out here. There was a lady at the car rental station who was FRANTICALLY going from booth to booth trying to find a car with an automatic transmission. Welcome to Europe lady :evildude:
Bigger cars aren't particularly wider, only longer, so why would they perform poorly on crappy country roads? Wouldn't a longer wheelbase translate to a better ride?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 08:47:07 AM
Using the RS to justify the whole lineup is like saying the Lancer is great cause of the Evo lmao
Who is using it to justify the whole lineup? You're saying Americans should all drive Twingos. I'm saying I want a Twingo 133. No justification going on. :huh:
Quote from: Laconian on September 14, 2012, 08:51:16 AM
Bigger cars aren't particularly wider, only longer, so why would they perform poorly on crappy country roads? Wouldn't a longer wheelbase translate to a better ride?
bigger cars are def wider, this Panda cant seat more than 2 adults side by side
And with turns tight as they are turnoff radius could come into play, at least for new drivers
All the locals, even the ones who could get big cars, have small hatchbacks up here
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 09:03:46 AM
bigger cars are def wider, this Panda cant seat more than 2 adults side by side
And with turns tight as they are turnoff radius could come into play, at least for new drivers
All the locals, even the ones who could get big cars, have small hatchbacks up here
Did you sit down with them individually and evaluate their finances to ensure that they were indeed buying below their means?
This thread is so cute.
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 14, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
This thread is so cute.
Men don't use the word "cute"...unless you're 2o6 describing a Chinese shitbox.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 14, 2012, 10:17:42 AM
Men don't use the word "cute"...unless you're 2o6 describing a Chinese shitbox.
Men who aren't secure in their masculinity don't use the word "cute."
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 14, 2012, 10:32:52 AM
Men who aren't secure in their masculinity don't use the word "cute."
Men who are secure in their masculinity use the word "cute"...to describe the waitress.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 09:03:46 AM
bigger cars are def wider, this Panda cant seat more than 2 adults side by side
And with turns tight as they are turnoff radius could come into play, at least for new drivers
All the locals, even the ones who could get big cars, have small hatchbacks up here
That's because you have cities that were built 5-600 years ago on pebble roads. And the width of the typical Italian road is narrower than the width of a typical Obese American, so even an American wouldn't be able to fit through those roads.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2012, 01:01:17 AM
Take someones opinions beyond the realm of reason to show why they are "not valid"... very mature
Obviously if you are towing boats or hauling furniture or, like I already said, can legitimately afford and just want a huge car, who cares? But a lot of Americans overcommit financially to buy cars that don't fit their needs. With the country in the condition its in, as well as the various environmental and political issues surrounding oil, it wouldn't hurt the average American carbuyer to have access to and buy something like a Twingo. Anecdote alert... when I went up to CT to ride with my buddy, we went to a pizza shop where one of the delivery boys had just bought a brand new Camry SE. Again dude is free to do what he wants. But I can't help but wonder. How much is that car hurting his pockets, and given the nature of what he will use the car for, wouldn't it make 100x more sense to get something more fuel efficient? There's an element of shame and insecurity behind the US' consumption culture but I won't get into that here. Obv theres an element of shame in the draconian tax policies here as well but again that's another thread.
Even without the taxes though I think people here would buy smaller cars. I haven't even filled up my tank yet, but aside from that I still am glad I got this little thing instead of anything bigger. The roads out in the country here are downright treacherous and you absolutely need a car you can place 100% confidently. Even something a Corolla's size would be a little ponderous. I can't even imagine how those folks with big Audis and Benzes manage. There is never a time I drive this car that I don't appreciate its nature. And I can sit behind myself in relative comfort (I am a standard size American male).
Only real gripe is the damn motor. Gotta keep it on the boil on steep mountain roads, and my throttle blipping calibration is still set to "motorcycle" so downshifts with the vague ass clutch are choppy. The combo of slow revs + bigger gear ratio gaps require outright WOT stomps to get the blip necessary between 3rd and 2nd for example. I am going to go ahead and say if I ever come back to the mountains out in Western Europe I'm gonna try and get a turbo diesel. It works though.
I really feel for the typical Americans who come out here. There was a lady at the car rental station who was FRANTICALLY going from booth to booth trying to find a car with an automatic transmission. Welcome to Europe lady :evildude:
But you're a believer that people should just get used cars though, so it doesn't apply. And if you look at the price of cars, a lot of times, an entry larger model car won't be that much more expensive if at all, than a fully loaded smaller model of the same brand. And with the current technologies, the fuel economy savings aren't that much greater in smaller cars compared to bigger cars but you get more utility.
Also, what do you think of cars like "Smart"? they're small, cramped, gets average economy for it's size, and it's expensive for it's size, what are the real benefits to getting something like that over cars like the Fit? or a Mazda 2?
I can understand why some people buy new. If priorities or finances warrant it, its fine. But a lot of cars these days can stay on the road for 20 yrs/300k miles with the right upkeep. Its not like the 60s/70s. So buying used makes a lot more sense these days.
And yes, the larger lower equipped car will be the same to buy, but it will still cost more to operate. And unless you are constantly hauling 4-5 passengers, or have 3 babies, I am not sure the extra space would be missed. Plus then you have to think the smaller car will be more fun to drive + have better performance. So to me unless size/volume is the top priority over everything else, the smaller cars are better deals for most people.
The Smart is a buy that really depends on what someone needs. I look at it less as an alternative to a car and more an alternative to a bike/scooter with a roof. There were a lot of them in Paris. I bet they are a lot cheaper in Europe too.
Quote from: Raza on September 14, 2012, 09:17:41 AM
Did you sit down with them individually and evaluate their finances to ensure that they were indeed buying below their means?
Actually we did have lunch w/an exec from wifey's company (they do real estate globally- their office is randomly in the town we are staying in). From how he explained it only the uber rich buy big stuff- even he only drives a Panda, and he is the head guy for the company in Italy. For where he is its just not worth it
If everybody should be buying used cars, where are the used cars going to come from?
Personally, I prefer hatchbacks, and if I had my druthers, I'd get a station wagon. Not a fan in general of SUV's but that's because I live in an area where people drive like assholes.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 15, 2012, 08:14:25 AM
If everybody should be buying used cars, where are the used cars going to come from?
We are already seeing a rise in used car prices to the point that some used cars barely depreciate for the first year
Americans are realizing it doesn't party to test cars as disposable like the bad old days
Sport? Did Raza say Renault Twingo Sport?
Here you go, buddy. Spotted this baby today. :praise:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/cawimmer430/Carspin%20Spotted/renaulttwingo.jpg)
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 15, 2012, 01:18:11 AM
Actually we did have lunch w/an exec from wifey's company (they do real estate globally- their office is randomly in the town we are staying in). From how he explained it only the uber rich buy big stuff- even he only drives a Panda, and he is the head guy for the company in Italy. For where he is its just not worth it
Warren Buffet always said he drove used Camrys for years. Just because some people do live below their means doesn't mean the cars they're buying are all that good. I prefer small cars, personally, but it doesn't mean I'm going to get the cheapest small car money can buy. Don't really know what size and cost have to do with one another.
How 'bout everyone just buys the car they want to buy with the least amount of government intrusion or influence possible? I really don't care what kind of car anyone else buys. I comment on other people's cars here because this is a car forum, but in daily life I really have no clue why someone bought the car they did.
Also, FWIW, I don't think many Americans would be cool with driving something called a "Twingo."
Quote from: TurboDan on September 15, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Also, FWIW, I don't think many Americans would be cool with driving something called a "Twingo."
They'd probably sell it here as the Nissan Versacube or something
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 15, 2012, 02:25:24 PM
They'd probably sell it here as the Nissan Versacube or something
I'm thinking the Nissan Box. Cousin of the Juke.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 13, 2012, 02:15:50 AM
The new Durangos are very attractive. I was blown away when I first saw them, and thought they were something German rather than from DCX.
I saw ALLOT of X5 on the shape, so I guess that's what reminded you of European too.
Quote from: TurboDan on September 15, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Also, FWIW, I don't think many Americans would be cool with driving something called a "Twingo."
I don't think it sounds any crazier than Corolla, Spark, Sonic or any other sort of made up name. :huh:
I think Small cars make sense in the USA. The Chevy spark is selling very well (about 60% above Chevy's expectations last I checked); we keep our stock of Sparks moving pretty quickly. Most drivers I've noticed tend to be older (especially women) who usually have a Malibu or similar that they're getting rid of. They trade the Malibu or Impala for a Spark (sometimes a Sonic) and typically their husband has a 'larger' car they use when they need to.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 15, 2012, 09:45:12 AM
Americans are realizing it doesn't party to test cars as disposable like the bad old days
autocorrect?
Quote from: 2o6 on September 15, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
I think Small cars make sense in the USA. The Chevy spark is selling very well (about 60% above Chevy's expectations last I checked); we keep our stock of Sparks moving pretty quickly. Most drivers I've noticed tend to be older (especially women) who usually have a Malibu or similar that they're getting rid of. They trade the Malibu or Impala for a Spark (sometimes a Sonic) and typically their husband has a 'larger' car they use when they need to.
A small car for my personal commuter would make a lot of sense for me; but that's also given that I have a full-size SUV that's already paid for to take on a lot of the kid and stuff hauling duties.
Quote from: TurboDan on September 15, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
Also, FWIW, I don't think many Americans would be cool with driving something called a "Twingo."
I'd get a yellow one with a white interior and call it the Twinkie.
Twingo sounds way better than the Ford Ka
(http://images.motoring.co.uk/images/car-pictures/mucf-images/500x375/spid1/ee/c5/5c/ford-ka-2010-piste-hatchback-titanium-3dr-only-40-miles-eec55ccde82f990d7869bd8051bf358b-m2.jpg)