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Some horrible JPEG compression there.  :confused:


220hp, 230 with a performance package, whatever that is.

what's with manual gearknobs that look like automatics nowadays?? I saw a Mustang the other day that had 3 pedals and a gearshift knob that looked EXACTLY like that one.

Anyway the wheels on the red one are really hot. 220+hp in a car that small would ROCK.

That is a DSG, however a manual is available.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 27, 2012, 06:11:57 AM
what's with manual gearknobs that look like automatics nowadays?? I saw a Mustang the other day that had 3 pedals and a gearshift knob that looked EXACTLY like that one.

Anyway the wheels on the red one are really hot. 220+hp in a car that small would ROCK.

That 3rd pedal is a dead pedal...not the clutch.

Quote from: SVT666 on September 27, 2012, 11:30:15 AM
That 3rd pedal is a dead pedal...not the clutch.

Maybe the Mustang he was talking about was a manual?

Quote from: thecarnut on September 27, 2012, 11:31:36 AM
Maybe the Mustang he was talking about was a manual?

Mustang shift knobs are not like that.  If it was like that, then the owner put an aftermarket knob on it.

(http://www.otoplush.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2013-Ford-Mustang-New-Interior-View-Pictures.jpg)

Looks great.  Might be one of the last enthusiast cars we ever see.  Cling to this, friends.  Das Ende ist nahe.

Quote from: Raza  on September 27, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
Looks great.  Might be one of the last enthusiast cars we ever see.  Cling to this, friends.  Das Ende ist nahe.

Um, what?

Quote from: thecarnut on September 27, 2012, 11:48:21 AM
Um, what?

Es bedeutet "das Ende nahe ist" in deutscher Sprache.

Tu nicht so, dass wir nicht unter Beschuss von eco-weenies.

Quote from: Raza  on September 27, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
Looks great.  Might be one of the last enthusiast cars we ever see.

Gearheads have been saying this for the last 40 years.  Don't believe it.

Quote from: Madman on September 27, 2012, 08:44:29 PM

Gearheads have been saying this for the last 40 years.  Don't believe it.

I look at the cars we have now and the cars on the horizon and I believe it.  Look at the direction of supercars now.  Supercomputers with automatic transmissions built to look great on a spec sheet instead and sell at an incredibly high price to people who know so little about driving they can't be trusted to drive their own cars.  Even Volkswagen makes it a point to debut their performance models with automatic transmissions.  The MkV R32 was sold in the US as an automatic only when the MkIV was manual only. 

We are a dying breed.

 :rolleyes:

1966:  Seatbelts?  Why do we need seatbelts?  People should just learn not to crash into things!  This will be the end of REAL cars!

1975:  Unleaded gasoline?  This will kill performance!  This is the end, I tell you!

1981:  Fuel injection?  What, no carbs?  It's the death of sporty cars!

1985:  Front wheel drive?  Heresy!  No more burnouts?  The end is near!!!!!!

1992:  Airbags?  Remember what I said back in '66 about people not crashing into things?

1997:  Anti-lock brakes?  What, you pussies need help to stop now?  It's the end.  I mean it this time!

2000:  Traction control?  Oh, come on!  The death of performance is upon us!

2008:  Electronic stability control?  Dammit, this is really the end.  No, really.  This time I mean it!!!

Quote from: Madman on September 27, 2012, 09:28:36 PM
1966:  Seatbelts?  Why do we need seatbelts?  People should just learn not to crash into things!  This will be the end of REAL cars!

1975:  Unleaded gasoline?  This will kill performance!  This is the end, I tell you!

1981:  Fuel injection?  What, no carbs?  It's the death of sporty cars!

1985:  Front wheel drive?  Heresy!  No more burnouts?  The end is near!!!!!!

1992:  Airbags?  Remember what I said back in '66 about people not crashing into things?

1997:  Anti-lock brakes?  What, you pussies need help to stop now?  It's the end.  I mean it this time!

2000:  Traction control?  Oh, come on!  The death of performance is upon us!

2008:  Electronic stability control?  Dammit, this is really the end.  No, really.  This time I mean it!!!

2012: Golf VII GTI debuts with automatic transmission? Well, it was nice knowing you all. The auto enthusiast is dead.

;) :lol:

Hey, if you guys are cool with the direction cars are going in now--hybrids, EVs, automatics, high weight, et al--then more power to you.  But the more new cars that come out, the less I'm interested in new cars.  There are a few glimmering bastions of hope, like the FRBRSZ, but by and large the automotive landscape for people who enjoy driving is becoming a smaller and smaller plot of land. 

There is an article in last week's economist about how the "love affair" with the automobile is ending in western advanced society. Younger generations care less for the car and see it more as an appliance and necessary evil than ever before. Public transport and other means of urban mobility (like biking) are on the rise. Eco-consciousness is ever rising. People see less need to meet in person when permanently conmected on-line. So on and so forth.

When we complain about things like BMW "abandoning" enthusiasts it is really the company "following" these new trends.

On the bright side, I don't see a total dearth of options for enthusiasts. As long as we still have options, I am happy. There are many good cars coming. Examples:

- It seems the VAG MQB platform cars are shaping up pretty good ( Golf, Leon, A3 ). All lighter than the previous generation and definitely a good drive.
- The BMW 1 & 3 series. For all C&D's bitching about EPS and Sporty's (I have to cite all authoritative sources here  :lol:) bitching about turbos, are still great cars to drive. If you ask me, the chassis on these cars is better than ever as an enthusiast. And the auto box too - heresy as that may be.
- The Tobaru, as mentioned here several times
- All "traditional" Porsches are still fantastic cars.
- All MINI's, for all their goofiness, are definitely fun to drive.
- Cadillacs. Yes. Incredibly so but most definitely yes.
- The current breed of american muscle cars are better then ever. Who'd have thought a few years ago Mustangs and Camaros would be pummeling M cars and Porsches around tracks - in Europe!
- Assorted Japanese cars. Infinity Gs (as witnessed here by many), the unbelievable GTR, etc.

Then there is the idea of the "evolving" enthusiast, that one who finds new pleasures in driving. Things like trying to extract the best possible MPG out of your car. That can be fun too. Ok, it will never match a pedal to the medal romp around your favourite mountain road, but on a clogged city highway, I'll take what fun I can get.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 28, 2012, 06:02:20 AM
There is an article in last week's economist about how the "love affair" with the automobile is ending in western advanced society. Younger generations care less for the car and see it more as an appliance and necessary evil than ever before. Public transport and other means of urban mobility (like biking) are on the rise. Eco-consciousness is ever rising. People see less need to meet in person when permanently conmected on-line. So on and so forth.

When we complain about things like BMW "abandoning" enthusiasts it is really the company "following" these new trends.

On the bright side, I don't see a total dearth of options for enthusiasts. As long as we still have options, I am happy. There are many good cars coming. Examples:

- It seems the VAG MQB platform cars are shaping up pretty good ( Golf, Leon, A3 ). All lighter than the previous generation and definitely a good drive.
- The BMW 1 & 3 series. For all C&D's bitching about EPS and Sporty's (I have to cite all authoritative sources here  :lol:) bitching about turbos, are still great cars to drive. If you ask me, the chassis on these cars is better than ever as an enthusiast. And the auto box too - heresy as that may be.
- The Tobaru, as mentioned here several times
- All "traditional" Porsches are still fantastic cars.
- All MINI's, for all their goofiness, are definitely fun to drive.
- Cadillacs. Yes. Incredibly so but most definitely yes.
- The current breed of american muscle cars are better then ever. Who'd have thought a few years ago Mustangs and Camaros would be pummeling M cars and Porsches around tracks - in Europe!
- Assorted Japanese cars. Infinity Gs (as witnessed here by many), the unbelievable GTR, etc.

Then there is the idea of the "evolving" enthusiast, that one who finds new pleasures in driving. Things like trying to extract the best possible MPG out of your car. That can be fun too. Ok, it will never match a pedal to the medal romp around your favourite mountain road, but on a clogged city highway, I'll take what fun I can get.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, but dwindling options is a sign.  But getting great MPG is never fun!

I like the C-pillar, it reminds me allot with the Mk IV, but I don' like the 'cut' on the lower rear corner of the rear window. I do like the driver-oriented dash, another reminiscence of the Mk IV. Overall, I have yet to warm up to the design.


PS: Remaining on the VW subject, I saw in flesh the first US-made Passat, and it looks HORRIBLE. Kill it, kill it with fire .... if I want t Camcord, I'd buy a Camcord   :banghead:

Quote from: AltinD on September 28, 2012, 07:09:59 AM
PS: Remaining on the VW subject, I saw in flesh the first US-made Passat, and it looks HORRIBLE. Kill it, kill it with fire .... if I want t Camcord, I'd buy a Camcord   :banghead:

It's working for them.  My friend was about to buy a Camry, then he and his wife drove the Passat, and they both preferred it and bought that instead.  Japanizing it is getting them more sales.  Midsize sedans aren't really for enthusiasts anyway.  I mourn the loss of a fun Passat, but I understand it.  Sell more Passats, get better Golfs.

Quote from: Raza  on September 28, 2012, 06:48:40 AM
  But getting great MPG is never fun!

WHAT!?!?!    Miata gets 28mpg at WOT every gear, every light. (up to 50mph. :( )

Newer ones get probably the same too!...

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2012, 07:31:22 AM
WHAT!?!?!    Miata gets 28mpg at WOT every gear, every light. (up to 50mph. :( )

Newer ones get probably the same too!...

Yeah, but 28mpg isn't great.

And that's a lot more than most people get in Miatas.  My friend got like 24-25 (before he started modifying it, I bet it's a lot worse now).

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 28, 2012, 06:02:20 AM
There is an article in last week's economist about how the "love affair" with the automobile is ending in western advanced society. Younger generations care less for the car and see it more as an appliance and necessary evil than ever before. Public transport and other means of urban mobility (like biking) are on the rise.

The young people who believe this are the young people whose apartments in ultra-high-rent cities like NYC and San Francisco are subsidized by their parents. Once the gravy train ends and they come back to Earth and move some place practical (meaning out of Manhattan) they might find pleasure in driving again.

There are also those whose lives aren't subsidized my mommy and daddy who live 4-roomies-to-a-1-bedroom-apartment and are content "roughing it" in the "big city" on their own. They won't be roughing it forever.

My generation of people in their 20s got messed up by living the high life in beautiful suburbs and wanting new adventures away from their cushy childhood homes. In a couple years, they'll all be crawling back after they realize being an urban hipster is a miserable existence.

There are also very, very few people who truly care about global warming and emissions to the point where it would actually stop them from owning a car.

Nice car, but Raza's right.

Quote from: TurboDan on September 28, 2012, 02:01:50 PM
The young people who believe this are the young people whose apartments in ultra-high-rent cities like NYC and San Francisco are subsidized by their parents. Once the gravy train ends and they come back to Earth and move some place practical (meaning out of Manhattan) they might find pleasure in driving again.

There are also those whose lives aren't subsidized my mommy and daddy who live 4-roomies-to-a-1-bedroom-apartment and are content "roughing it" in the "big city" on their own. They won't be roughing it forever.

My generation of people in their 20s got messed up by living the high life in beautiful suburbs and wanting new adventures away from their cushy childhood homes. In a couple years, they'll all be crawling back after they realize being an urban hipster is a miserable existence.

There are also very, very few people who truly care about global warming and emissions to the point where it would actually stop them from owning a car.

Probably because unemployment is at an all time high, and so is car ownership.

Quote from: Raza  on September 28, 2012, 07:37:36 AM
Yeah, but 28mpg isn't great.

And that's a lot more than most people get in Miatas.  My friend got like 24-25 (before he started modifying it, I bet it's a lot worse now).

Pfft I could milk way more than that. And most people don't know how to drive. ;)   :lol:

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2012, 06:59:12 PM
Pfft I could milk way more than that. And most people don't know how to drive. ;)   :lol:

He does run low 14s on "low boost" setting, though.  There's also a high boost setting.  So it's one fast NA MX-5.  He drives a Mazda2 daily. 

Quote from: 2o6 on September 28, 2012, 06:44:44 PM
Probably because unemployment is at an all time high, and so is car ownership.

That's part of it. But a bigger part is the percentage of people in their 20s who came from families who had shitloads of money during the tech bubbles and such. Kids like Raza and I learned to appreciate decent cars during that period (my dad rocked an SC400 during bubble times, etc.) and eventually broke away to make our own success stories. Others rebelled and wanted to become Occupy Wall Street losers and live the "slum life" in big cities without a dollar to their name.

I'll take my Land Rover in my family's small home on a barrier island over no whip and a life in a postage stamp apartment in NYC or a nice neighborhood in Philly. I'm sure Raza's cool with his Z4 in his condo.  ;)

Quote from: Madman on September 27, 2012, 09:28:36 PM
1966:  Seatbelts?  Why do we need seatbelts?  People should just learn not to crash into things!  This will be the end of REAL cars!

1975:  Unleaded gasoline?  This will kill performance!  This is the end, I tell you!

1981:  Fuel injection?  What, no carbs?  It's the death of sporty cars!

1985:  Front wheel drive?  Heresy!  No more burnouts?  The end is near!!!!!!

1992:  Airbags?  Remember what I said back in '66 about people not crashing into things?

1997:  Anti-lock brakes?  What, you pussies need help to stop now?  It's the end.  I mean it this time!

2000:  Traction control?  Oh, come on!  The death of performance is upon us!

2008:  Electronic stability control?  Dammit, this is really the end.  No, really.  This time I mean it!!!

For the record, my '75 Eldo had as available options, both airbags and anti-lock brakes.

But, the owner's manual was still sketchy about things like safety (it suggests, among other things, that standing children be kept in the back seat area- if possible that is)

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 29, 2012, 01:22:22 AM
For the record, my '75 Eldo had as available options, both airbags and anti-lock brakes.

But, the owner's manual was still sketchy about things like safety (it suggests, among other things, that standing children be kept in the back seat area- if possible that is)

Ah, the good ole days, when 2-doors had sufficient standing room in the back.

Quote from: TurboDan on September 29, 2012, 01:15:34 AM
That's part of it. But a bigger part is the percentage of people in their 20s who came from families who had shitloads of money during the tech bubbles and such. Kids like Raza and I learned to appreciate decent cars during that period (my dad rocked an SC400 during bubble times, etc.) and eventually broke away to make our own success stories. Others rebelled and wanted to become Occupy Wall Street losers and live the "slum life" in big cities without a dollar to their name.

I'll take my Land Rover in my family's property on a barrier island over no whip and a life in a postage stamp apartment in NYC or a nice neighborhood in Philly. I'm sure Raza's cool with his Z4 in his condo.  ;)

Most people in their 20's didn't come from money.....

Quote from: 2o6 on September 29, 2012, 09:47:22 AM

Most people in their 20's didn't come from money.....

I don't consider myself as "coming from money" at all. There was just a lot of money to go around for a while, and people took advantage of it. Some of us were coming into a period where we were interested in cars during these times.

The bubble did burst, by the way, and a lot of that wealth was short-lived. My family probably fared a little better than some others in retaining it because my parents switched some of it from semiconductor/telecom stocks to real estate, but net worth went down significantly regardless.

Quote from: Raza  on September 28, 2012, 07:22:32 AM
It's working for them.  My friend was about to buy a Camry, then he and his wife drove the Passat, and they both preferred it and bought that instead.  Japanizing it is getting them more sales.  Midsize sedans aren't really for enthusiasts anyway.  I mourn the loss of a fun Passat, but I understand it.  Sell more Passats, get better Golfs.

In North America .... but I don't live in North America

The US made Passat is sold here slightly more expensive then the lesser trim of the B6 offered here: The TSI with the 1.8T engine, same power BUT with DSG and of course a real German Passat. And from there wou could have jumped on the 2.0T, the V6 and the R36, while now people are stuck with the same lame engine and less available options then the B6 offered, both in tech and equipments and luxury.

So you have a car that is only bigger, is bloated, not really German, gives you not much choice of engines, trims and options .... and still not price competitive to the Camcords.

A lesser car for the same price? NO THANKS!

The new Focus ST absolutely spanks the GTI in the new Road & Track.

Quote from: SVT666 on October 14, 2012, 01:52:50 AM
The new Focus ST absolutely spanks the GTI in the new Road & Track.

But that is the current VI GTI, not the VII correct?

Quote from: AltinD on September 30, 2012, 06:09:28 AM
In North America .... but I don't live in North America

The US made Passat is sold here slightly more expensive then the lesser trim of the B6 offered here: The TSI with the 1.8T engine, same power BUT with DSG and of course a real German Passat. And from there wou could have jumped on the 2.0T, the V6 and the R36, while now people are stuck with the same lame engine and less available options then the B6 offered, both in tech and equipments and luxury.

So you have a car that is only bigger, is bloated, not really German, gives you not much choice of engines, trims and options .... and still not price competitive to the Camcords.

A lesser car for the same price? NO THANKS!

"not really German"

Lol

I still don't get the psychology of the growth of midsizers. My bro's 06 Altima is cavernous, and the one that followed was even bigger. But still couldn't really sit 5 full grown adults in comfort for long distances. I'm glad that trend is dead.

Full size market died, though.

Quote from: MrH on October 18, 2012, 11:28:12 AM
"not really German"

Lol

Yes, not really. It looks like Camcord, and is equipped like one. Thanks, but no thanks .... it will not be my next car, I don't do dullness.

Nice car for sure... and I think Raza is right. That kind of thinking is what I got razed about when supporting Chrysler all these years... The return of the RWD, a modernized HEMI V8 and the SRT branded cars on sale at Chrysler dealerships after years of lesser offerings while GM and Ford disappointed us with their fullsize car lineup. Now will the heightened MPG figures change the direction at Chrysler? Another thing closer to the Golf GTI is the influence of the "Americanized" (and cheapened) Jetta that we may come to see across the line.

Highs: VW faithful will love it, a very nice interior for the class, lighter and more powerful.

Lows: real enthusiast will hate it, looks ugly, will probably be overpriced.

Verdict: Same damn thing as a MK5/6. Call me when VW makes something worth a damn.

Quote from: Char on October 20, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
Call me when VW makes something worth a damn.

Pray tell, how would that look like?

Quote from: Galaxy on October 20, 2012, 11:24:11 AM
Pray tell, how would that look like?

Probably a BRZ, Genesis, Mustang V6 and all other cars I would have over this soon-to-be overpriced crapbox.

It's a hot hatch, not a sports coupe.

Quote from: Galaxy on October 20, 2012, 11:24:11 AM
Pray tell, how would that look like?

Eh, he's just a hater.  Volkswagen makes some awesome cars (though fewer now than they did just a few years ago). 

Nothing VW makes can be considered awesome if you actually enjoy driving your car.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 10:05:54 AM
Nothing VW makes can be considered awesome if you actually enjoy driving your car.

Have you ever driven a recent (mkV or newer) GTI?

Quote from: MX793 on October 21, 2012, 10:12:45 AM
Have you ever driven a recent (mkV or newer) GTI?

Has he ever driven a VW.....ever?

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 01:31:35 PM
Has he ever driven a VW.....ever?

I have, and I'm not impressed. And why should I be, the GTI was barely quicker than a SI is C/D lightning lap (which was abysmally slow?) I'm not talking about plaid seats, "DSG" (Automatic) that requires expensive flushes and an undefeatable traction control system, those don't entertain me. I know a few of you think you?re Fernando Alonso because you hustle your car around the neighborhood, but for some of us a hopped up Golf is not adequate, so you care about performance (and driving enjoyment), you?re not going to be looking at a GTI. Period.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
I have, and I'm not impressed. And why should I be, the GTI was barely quicker than a SI is C/D lightning lap (which was abysmally slow?) I'm not talking about plaid seats, "DSG" (Automatic) that requires expensive flushes and an undefeatable traction control system, those don't entertain me. I know a few of you think you?re Fernando Alonso because you hustle your car around the neighborhood, but for some of us a hopped up Golf is not adequate, so you care about performance (and driving enjoyment), you?re not going to be looking at a GTI. Period.

You're such a lovely person.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
I have, and I'm not impressed. And why should I be, the GTI was barely quicker than a SI is C/D lightning lap (which was abysmally slow?) I'm not talking about plaid seats, "DSG" (Automatic) that requires expensive flushes and an undefeatable traction control system, those don't entertain me. I know a few of you think you?re Fernando Alonso because you hustle your car around the neighborhood, but for some of us a hopped up Golf is not adequate, so you care about performance (and driving enjoyment), you?re not going to be looking at a GTI. Period.

So you've never driven one?


Have you driven both? I have driven a Civic Si, it's an awesomely quick little car, and in Mugen guise it actually punches well above it's weight on the track (as does the GTI).

No, it's obvious YOU haven't driven them.

Tell you what, post up a video of you doing a few Autocross runs in a GTI/SI; show me how competent they are.
Edit: Did you mention the almost 30k Mugen Civic Si? And what 30K cars does it outrun, a 4 cylinder Toyota Camry automatic? You are absolutely ridiculous.

I think you're the ridiculous one.

 But I'm not an idiot mouthing off without anything substantive to back up my comments.  :ohyeah: It's ok that you like the GTI, I don't and I listed specific reasons why. I was asked what cars I would rather drive than one, I named a few (to which you stated they weren?t hatchbacks. That wasn't part of the criteria). I don't like FWD, I don't like hatchbacks, and I don't like VW's shitty engineers, questionable reliability and I especially don't like the pretentious, douchebag customers.  If you?re fine with that, enjoy your new hipster-mobile.

I can tell we will all have a wonderful relationship here.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 05:11:25 PM
No, it's obvious YOU haven't driven them.

Tell you what, post up a video of you doing a few Autocross runs in a GTI/SI; show me how competent they are.
Edit: Did you mention the almost 30k Mugen Civic Si? And what 30K cars does it outrun, a 4 cylinder Toyota Camry automatic? You are absolutely ridiculous.

The guy who won the overall PAX in our region's autocross series was in a stock Civic Si.  This was against WRXs, Corvettes, Miatas, a Lotus Super7, a snowmobile-powered open-wheeler, a couple of 125cc karts...  He had the top PAX time in half of our events and never finished worse than 4th on the day.

Quote from: MX793 on October 21, 2012, 06:00:11 PM
The guy who won the overall PAX in our region's autocross series was in a stock Civic Si.  This was against WRXs, Corvettes, Miatas, a Lotus Super7, a snowmobile-powered open-wheeler, a couple of 125cc karts...  He had the top PAX time in half of our events and never finished worse than 4th on the day.

To heck with PAX, I beat raw times of modified Vettes, WRXs, and most other things on DOT rubber in my base model 70-hp 4-speed Civic with $1700 worth of coilovers and tires. Miatas and Minis were evil, though.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
I have, and I'm not impressed. And why should I be, the GTI was barely quicker than a SI is C/D lightning lap (which was abysmally slow?) I'm not talking about plaid seats, "DSG" (Automatic) that requires expensive flushes and an undefeatable traction control system, those don't entertain me. I know a few of you think you?re Fernando Alonso because you hustle your car around the neighborhood, but for some of us a hopped up Golf is not adequate, so you care about performance (and driving enjoyment), you?re not going to be looking at a GTI. Period.

What car(s) do you drive?

Quote from: MX793 on October 21, 2012, 06:00:11 PM
The guy who won the overall PAX in our region's autocross series was in a stock Civic Si.  This was against WRXs, Corvettes, Miatas, a Lotus Super7, a snowmobile-powered open-wheeler, a couple of 125cc karts...  He had the top PAX time in half of our events and never finished worse than 4th on the day.

PAX = Driver, not the car. But older Civics/Honda's are known to be excellent. The new ones not as much.

Quote from: GoCougs on October 21, 2012, 06:15:39 PM
What car(s) do you drive?

Slow boring appliances that I treat as such.
A Golf isn't a sports car, I don't even consider it a sporty car.

Quote from: GoCougs on October 21, 2012, 06:15:39 PM
What car(s) do you drive?

His mom's Mercury Villager.  :lol:

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:24:26 PM
His mom's Mercury Villager.  :lol:

Only if he's done with his homework...

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:26:16 PM
Only if he's done with his homework...

It's a Nautica edition, too!

(http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/1995_mercury_villager_nautica_20379295.jpg)

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
It's a Nautica edition, too!

(http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/1995_mercury_villager_nautica_20379295.jpg)

This deserves a spot in your favourite Nissan thread!

People, who speak the most, usually have the least to say - You have almost 20k post, and it's hard to imagine that your nonsensical drivel has been tolerated this long.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2012%20ProSolo%20Points%20Atlantic%20Zone5.pdf

Find me a VW GTI in a stock class that's a front runner. Or any VW for that matter.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:35:43 PM
This deserves a spot in your favourite Nissan thread!

Didn't it have a Ford engine, though?

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 06:36:27 PM
People, who speak the most, usually have the least to say - You have almost 20k post, and it's hard to imagine that your nonsensical drivel has been tolerated this long.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2012%20ProSolo%20Points%20Atlantic%20Zone5.pdf

Find me a VW GTI in a stock class that's a front runner. Or any VW for that matter.

What do you drive?

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:40:44 PM
Didn't it have a Ford engine, though?

What do you drive?

No, the Villager was all Nissan. Ford built the Windturd.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:43:43 PM
No, the Villager was all Nissan. Ford built the Windturd.

Is there a VQ in that van?  :wub:

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:44:36 PM
Is there a VQ in that van?  :wub:

No, the same weak lump that my Pathfinder had.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:49:08 PM
No, the same weak lump that my Pathfinder had.

Awh.


Buy one and autocross it!

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 06:23:33 PM
PAX = Driver, not the car. But older Civics/Honda's are known to be excellent. The new ones not as much. Slow boring appliances that I treat as such.

This was a newer generation (~2006) model.  And you have to use PAX because, let's face it, a G Stock car isn't going to keep up with an F-mod or K-mod in raw time.  Looking at our last event, his raw time trumped a pair of D-stock cars (which is a faster class than G-stock), also in the X-pro class, by a second on a sub-50-second course.  In fact, his raw time was the fastest of any stock car there, and the only 3 cars that beat him in raw time were an F-mod (the aforementioned 500cc kart), a K-mod/F125 kart, and a street mod Lancer Evo (that was trailered in, so I'm guessing not streetable).

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:50:05 PM
Awh.


Buy one and autocross it!

But you cannot autocross or have fun in anything but a true sports car....

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 06:44:36 PM
Is there a VQ in that van?  :wub:

No, they had the older VG engine.

I used to see the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager all the time! Now it's been ages since I've seen one of those heaps and it makes me sad. :(

Quote from: thecarnut on October 21, 2012, 06:53:29 PM
I used to see the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager all the time! Now it's been ages since I've seen one of those heaps and it makes me sad. :(

They were quite popular in their first year. And that's about it.

My friend's dad was super proud of his Villager and got *****super***** pissed when someone broke a little tab from a plastic drinkholder.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:55:57 PM
They were quite popular in their first year. And that's about it.

I used to see them all the time in the early to mid '00's. Now they don't even show up at the local WalMart parking lots. :(

Quote from: thecarnut on October 21, 2012, 06:53:29 PM
I used to see the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager all the time! Now it's been ages since I've seen one of those heaps and it makes me sad. :(

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 21, 2012, 06:55:57 PM
They were quite popular in their first year. And that's about it.

Many people forget there was a second generation....

(http://images.autobytel.com/web/carpics/420pixelswide/2001MercuryVillager.jpg)

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 10:05:54 AM
Nothing VW makes can be considered awesome if you actually enjoy driving your car.

How horribly misinformed...or trollish, whichever you prefer to call it.

Quote from: thecarnut on October 21, 2012, 06:57:05 PM
I used to see them all the time in the early to mid '00's. Now they don't even show up at the local WalMart parking lots. :(

You can find pretty much anything at a WalMart or BJ's parking lot.  I've seen everything from Yugos to NSXs at those stores.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=28168.msg1796439#msg1796439 date=1350867513
How horribly misinformed...or trollish, whichever you prefer to call it.

And what vague arbitrary criteria do you base cars on that you would call a GTI a sporty car? We are talking about a car without a real LSD and undefeatable stability control system.  If you, self-proclaimed purist, one who prides himself on being able to drive manual transmission (a feat matched by 16 year old girls all throughout Europe) and detest driving aids, defends that, it?s YOU who must be misinformed or trolling.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
And what vague arbitrary criteria do you base cars on that you would call a GTI a sporty car? We are talking about a car without a real LSD and undefeatable stability control system.  If you, self-proclaimed purist, one who prides himself on being able to drive manual transmission (a feat matched by 16 year old girls all throughout Europe) and detest driving aids, defends that, it?s YOU who must be misinformed or trolling.

What do you drive again?

Quote from: 2o6 on October 21, 2012, 07:13:18 PM
What do you drive again?

Ad Hominem
1.
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I don't like the VW Golf (or any VW product to be honest), and what I drive (none of which are VW products) has anything to do with my opinion on specific automobiles. I told you my criteria for a sporty car, the VW doesn't meet any of those.

Villager.

I like the VW GTI because the interior is a nice place to be, it's relatively good to drive, I like the sound the doors make, it has good headlights, the wheels are nice, I like the turn signal stalk, etc.  I like the GTI because it feels like a real car. 

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 07:32:41 PM
I told you my criteria for a sporty car, the VW doesn't meet any of those.

Boxster is no longer a sporty car. Who knew!?

Quote from: 850CSi on October 21, 2012, 07:59:48 PM
Boxster is no longer a sporty car. Who knew!?

Only thing that is sporty is a Viper ACR! And that is far too plebeian for our friend here.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
And what vague arbitrary criteria do you base cars on that you would call a GTI a sporty car? We are talking about a car without a real LSD and undefeatable stability control system.  If you, self-proclaimed purist, one who prides himself on being able to drive manual transmission (a feat matched by 16 year old girls all throughout Europe) and detest driving aids, defends that, it?s YOU who must be misinformed or trolling.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/12/3/1259860285437/TROLLS---1992-001.jpg)

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 06:23:33 PM
A Golf isn't a sports car, I don't even consider it a sporty car.

I don't think many in general, or any 'SPINners at all, classify it as sports car. However, it is unarguably a sporty car. The WRX is cheap and unrefined, the Mustang is a caricature and the Camaro a bit less so, the Civic Si is still horrible WRT to ride and road noise; this is how the GTI made it on my short list.

Quote from: Char on October 20, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
Highs: VW faithful will love it, a very nice interior for the class, lighter and more powerful.

Lows: real enthusiast will hate it, looks ugly, will probably be overpriced.

Verdict: Same damn thing as a MK5/6. Call me when VW makes something worth a damn.

The Passat looks boring, but it's far from ugly. I know this is troll feeding here, but what was there to hate about the B5/6 Passats? I wouldn't buy the current Passat, but I loved my B5.5, as did a few other people here who had them. It handled just about as well as any FWD car could, was fun to drive with the 1.8T and was sufficiently roomy. I was iffy going to a midsize sedan from my Saab hatch, but it proved itself a worthy car that blended enthusiast driving with practicality. And I had it 'til 155K with minimal mechanical issues.  :huh:

Quote from: GoCougs on October 21, 2012, 09:38:15 PM
I don't think many in general, or any 'SPINners at all, classify it as sports car. However, it is unarguably a sporty car. The WRX is cheap and unrefined, the Mustang is a caricature and the Camaro a bit less so, the Civic Si is still horrible WRT to ride and road noise; this is how the GTI made it on my short list.

I agree. The GTI has the fewest compromises in this segment. The WRX has a cheapo interior, the Mustang and Camaro are both boats, the Civic Si is awful in terms of driveability. If I was looking for a sporty small car, it'd either be a GTI or a BRZ. I know, different classes of vehicles but I don't doubt they're cross-shopped.

I liked the Si, but the steering is so disappointing for such a sporty car.


And the new one removes the interesting engine, and replaces it with a boring 2.4L.



SE-R I don't even consider to be sporty.

CSi was awful in terms of driveability? Outside of the road noise what's wrong with it?

GTI is OK. Feels like a Euro-spec Audi inside, buttloads of torque, decent handling, rock solid body structure. I wouldn't say its the best choice though, all the cars in this segment are equally competent and flawed in their own ways. None of them really get my blood pumping.

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 05:25:10 PM
But I'm not an idiot mouthing off without anything substantive to back up my comments.  :ohyeah: It's ok that you like the GTI, I don't and I listed specific reasons why. I was asked what cars I would rather drive than one, I named a few (to which you stated they weren?t hatchbacks. That wasn't part of the criteria). I don't like FWD, I don't like hatchbacks, and I don't like VW's shitty engineers, questionable reliability and I especially don't like the pretentious, douchebag customers.  If you?re fine with that, enjoy your new hipster-mobile.

Wait, so who's the pretentious douchebag? :wtf:

So instead of attacking me for my opinion, why don't you explain your criteria for what makes the GTI a good car?

I don't care about its soft touch plastics or a car that 'feels' more expensive than it is. If that were the criteria that all people judged cars by, cars like the Evolution, Genesis coupe, Corvette, 350/70Z etc. would all be overlooked in favor of...a Passat. Please. I, and quite a few others, feel that the VW isn't the best compromise of what we want in a car.

I don't like their cars, their FWD based helix AWD system, their shitty TSI/FSI motors (now with carbon build up!), questionable reliability, expensive entry price and douchebag community, and so far nothing they have produced has changed my perception that they are a mainstream company that sells cars on the cache of German engineering.

So it's not right for you, big deal.  I'm not going to give any criteria because I've never driven one and am not in the market.  Nor do I honestly care.  I just find it odd/ironic (perhaps, pretentious?) that the guy bitching about every last detail of something he doesn't even own is calling everyone that does actually own one a pretentious douchebag.

Carry on.  :rastaman:

Quote from: Char on October 22, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
So instead of attacking me for my opinion, why don't you explain your criteria for what makes the GTI a good car?

I don't care about its soft touch plastics or a car that 'feels' more expensive than it is. If that were the criteria that all people judged cars by, cars like the Evolution, Genesis coupe, Corvette, 350/70Z etc. would all be overlooked in favor of...a Passat. Please. I, and quite a few others, feel that the VW isn't the best compromise of what we want in a car.

I don't like their cars, their FWD based helix AWD system, their shitty TSI/FSI motors (now with carbon build up!), questionable reliability, expensive entry price and douchebag community, and so far nothing they have produced has changed my perception that they are a mainstream company that sells cars on the cache of German engineering.

'SPINners have already given a healthy list:

Good handling
Good acceleration
Great ride
Great user inputs esp. steering and M/T shifter
Class-leading refinement
Class-leading interior
Class-leading utility

Genesis coupe is One of the most underwhelming cars on the market now. Who cares about drove wheels if it sucks to drive? Same with 350Z.

I like the GTI.

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 22, 2012, 04:36:52 PM
I like the GTI.

As do I. The 2.0T is a gem.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 22, 2012, 04:32:17 PM
Genesis coupe is One of the most underwhelming cars on the market now. Who cares about drove wheels if it sucks to drive? Same with 350Z.

UNDERWHELMING BASED ON WHAT? Are absolutely friggen ridiculous. I gave you a pass on mocking the K24 in the civic (yes, the same K series motor they offered in the prior model with .4 extra liters) but some of the stuff you say make me want to palm my face?

The 350Z is Underwhelming under what measure? Just stop.

Underwhelming based on the fact that they feel like Crap to drive.


You sound like you're 15....

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 05:11:25 PM
No, it's obvious YOU haven't driven them. 

I have: A last generation R32, GLI and a new GLI. 

You're just incorrect. 

The Genesis Coupe is not a particularly enjoyable car. Lots of punch, but numb steering. I drove an AT but apparently the MT is really bad. And piss poor visibility.

Quote from: TBR on October 22, 2012, 05:35:15 PM
The Genesis Coupe is not a particularly enjoyable car. Lots of punch, but numb steering. I drove an AT but apparently the MT is really bad. And piss poor visibility.

Visibility is average for a coupe, really.  Much better than Camaro, about the same as a Mustang or BRZ/FR-S.  Steering wasn't great, wasn't terrible.  The MT was pretty bad.  The clutch take-up was like a light switch, the throttle very touchy on initial tip-in, and the gearbox itself was clunky and high-effort.  Of all of the cars I test drove, the Gen Coupe was the only one I couldn't launch smoothly from a dead stop with and the only one I stalled repeatedly even well into the test drive.  The clutch/throttle combination was just awful.  Great seats, though.  Haven't been in a 2nd gen, but the 1st gen interior was decent.

350Z bad to drive? lol Sounds like Raza trying to justify buying a vag mobile.

Quote from: MX793 on October 22, 2012, 05:46:05 PM
Visibility is average for a coupe, really.  Much better than Camaro, about the same as a Mustang or BRZ/FR-S.  Steering wasn't great, wasn't terrible.  The MT was pretty bad.  The clutch take-up was like a light switch, the throttle very touchy on initial tip-in, and the gearbox itself was clunky and high-effort.  Of all of the cars I test drove, the Gen Coupe was the only one I couldn't launch smoothly from a dead stop with and the only one I stalled repeatedly even well into the test drive.  The clutch/throttle combination was just awful.  Great seats, though.  Haven't been in a 2nd gen, but the 1st gen interior was decent.

I haven't driven many coupes other than my old Prelude.

I guess I just expect too much out of steering. Looking back I can think of precious few cars that impressed me in that area.

Quote from: GoCougs on October 22, 2012, 05:46:50 PM
350Z bad to drive? lol Sounds like Raza trying to justify buying a vag mobile.

I face palmed myself.

Bad visibility destroys the Camaro.

I thought that the latest blog posting on respected UK motoring magazine Autocar's website would be of particular interest to readers of this thread.

See  here  (http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/sao-paulo-motor-show-2012/who-would-bet-against-vw-becoming-number-one).

Quote from: Char on October 22, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
So instead of attacking me for my opinion, why don't you explain your criteria for what makes the GTI a good car?

I don't care about its soft touch plastics or a car that 'feels' more expensive than it is. If that were the criteria that all people judged cars by, cars like the Evolution, Genesis coupe, Corvette, 350/70Z etc. would all be overlooked in favor of...a Passat. Please. I, and quite a few others, feel that the VW isn't the best compromise of what we want in a car.

I don't like their cars, their FWD based helix AWD system, their shitty TSI/FSI motors (now with carbon build up!), questionable reliability, expensive entry price and douchebag community, and so far nothing they have produced has changed my perception that they are a mainstream company that sells cars on the cache of German engineering.

1) An Evo doesn't feel as solid as a Passat. It's probably not as solid as a Passat. Neither is a 350Z, most likely. But they're different kinds of cars. So your comparison is senseless. You don't buy Evos and Corvettes for safety or for them to be a solid highway commuter vehicle.  :rolleyes:

2) VW uses different AWD systems on its vehicles - Haldex or Torsen depending on the model. Are you dumb enough to claim a Touareg's AWD system is inferior? There's a Top Gear video of Clarkson towing a massive tree stump out of the ground in low range that disagrees.

3) The 2.0 TSI is one of the best engines I've ever seen fitted in a mainstream, mass-produced vehicle. Carbon only builds up if you're stupid enough to ignore the direction to use synthetic.

4) Their cars sell on the "cachet" of being a good mix of mainstream and near-luxury, with interior quality significantly better than most other mainstream brands. If the GTI had the interior of a Toyota Matrix, nobody would buy it just because it was "German."  :rolleyes:

In other news, I drove an LR2 yesterday. I really liked it.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 23, 2012, 08:46:42 PM

3) The 2.0 TSI is one of the best engines I've ever seen fitted in a mainstream, mass-produced vehicle. Carbon only builds up if you're stupid enough to ignore the direction to use synthetic.

Rated as some of the best engines in the world, actually...

http://www.worldcarfans.com/110062426998/engine-of-the-year-2010-volkswagen-14-liter-tsi-wins

Quote from: TurboDan on October 23, 2012, 08:46:42 PM
1) An Evo doesn't feel as solid as a Passat. It's probably not as solid as a Passat. Neither is a 350Z, most likely. But they're different kinds of cars. So your comparison is senseless. You don't buy Evos and Corvettes for safety or for them to be a solid highway commuter vehicle.  :rolleyes:

2) VW uses different AWD systems on its vehicles - Haldex or Torsen depending on the model. Are you dumb enough to claim a Touareg's AWD system is inferior? There's a Top Gear video of Clarkson towing a massive tree stump out of the ground in low range that disagrees.

3) The 2.0 TSI is one of the best engines I've ever seen fitted in a mainstream, mass-produced vehicle. Carbon only builds up if you're stupid enough to ignore the direction to use synthetic.

4) Their cars sell on the "cachet" of being a good mix of mainstream and near-luxury, with interior quality significantly better than most other mainstream brands. If the GTI had the interior of a Toyota Matrix, nobody would buy it just because it was "German."  :rolleyes:

1. Again, not interested in who has a faster dashboard. I think FWD cars, especially those that have an stability control system that cannot be disabled, are generally not for people who enjoy driving cars. Is the Evolution cheap? Very, and I can understand why someone would prefer the environment of the Passat more than the Lancer. However, that is not my admission that the Passat is a good car, because for it's price, there are better cars that I would rather have. It just makes no compelling case for me. An upscale midsize sedan that is kinda sporty and can be priced into the 30K range with a V6 puts in within range of better cars, like the G37, IS and if you want FWD, the Acura TSX.  All the cars I mentioned are dynamically superior, look better, and arguably have better reliability. Why buy a VW?

2. All VWs AWD systems suck. Period. Has the R32 ever been on the level of the Evolution/STI? Nope. I don't expect that to change anytime soon when the AWD system is FWD based.

3.  :rolleyes: The TSI motors carbon buildup has less to do with the oil used, and more to do with VWs poor engineering. Because of the DI system, fuel doesn't clean off the blow by on the valves like it normally would in a port fuel injection car. Toyota obviously knows something VW doesn't, because their DI motors use both direct and port fuel injection, and I've heard of no issues with carbon build up. Word is that VW will be adding port fuel injection, but for the time being, people are stuck with a poorly designed engine and are trapped paying the dealer to clean up VWs engineering mistake. As usual.

4. Already addressed in my first post. What the feel of a more expensive car, buy one, considering the VWs are very near in price to many of them. Really, I'm not arguing about appliances, I'm talking about drivers cars. Nice dashboards, and smooth rides aren't, and shouldn't be a deal breaker on sporty cars. It's borderline ignorant to make comments comparing a Passat to a 350Z or Lancer, because to an enthusiast, there is no real comparison.

In other news, is it just me, or does the 3-door model look a tad awkward in profile?

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 05:48:35 AM
1. Again, not interested in who has a faster dashboard. I think FWD cars, especially those that have an stability control system that cannot be disabled, are generally not for people who enjoy driving cars. Is the Evolution cheap? Very, and I can understand why someone would prefer the environment of the Passat more than the Lancer. However, that is not my admission that the Passat is a good car, because for it's price, there are better cars that I would rather have. It just makes no compelling case for me. An upscale midsize sedan that is kinda sporty and can be priced into the 30K range with a V6 puts in within range of better cars, like the G37, IS and if you want FWD, the Acura TSX.  All the cars I mentioned are dynamically superior, look better, and arguably have better reliability. Why buy a VW?

You do realize that almost all of that is entirely subjective and that you are entitled to that opinion but there are actually other people in the world whose opinions and preferences may differ? 

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 05:48:35 AM

4. Already addressed in my first post. What the feel of a more expensive car, buy one, considering the VWs are very near in price to many of them. Really, I'm not arguing about appliances, I'm talking about drivers cars. Nice dashboards, and smooth rides aren't, and shouldn't be a deal breaker on sporty cars. It's borderline ignorant to make comments comparing a Passat to a 350Z or Lancer, because to an enthusiast, there is no real comparison.

Again, that's your preference.  Want a lower-quality interior?  By all means, buy the car that you like better with the lower quality interior.  Other people may prefer a nicer interior in sacrifice of some speed or handling.  The interior is, after all, where you spend all of your driving time...some people prefer it to not be made of Tupperware. :huh:

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 05:48:35 AM

2. All VWs AWD systems suck. Period. Has the R32 ever been on the level of the Evolution/STI? Nope. I don't expect that to change anytime soon when the AWD system is FWD based.

This entire argument is pretty funny to read, but I just thought I'd point out that the EVO's AWD system is FWD biased.  Kinda kills your whole argument there... :lol:

Quote from: Char on October 22, 2012, 05:10:57 PM
UNDERWHELMING BASED ON WHAT? Are absolutely friggen ridiculous. I gave you a pass on mocking the K24 in the civic (yes, the same K series motor they offered in the prior model with .4 extra liters) but some of the stuff you say make me want to palm my face?

The 350Z is Underwhelming under what measure? Just stop.

2.0T is still slow even with the extra 80 HP. Also pretty heavy. K24 in the new Civic is a complete departure from the K20A, in pretty much the worst ways possible. 350Z is quick but heavy, impractical and dynamically flawed. Japanese Mustang BEFORE the Coyote makeover.

Like I think I said in this thread none of the cars in this segment are GREAT GREAT, they all have things you have to sacrifice on, I guess owing to their price point. I tell you one thing though. I would def go for a GTI over a Genesis or 350Z for a daily driver.

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 05:48:35 AM
1. Again, not interested in who has a faster dashboard. I think FWD cars, especially those that have an stability control system that cannot be disabled, are generally not for people who enjoy driving cars. Is the Evolution cheap? Very, and I can understand why someone would prefer the environment of the Passat more than the Lancer. However, that is not my admission that the Passat is a good car, because for it's price, there are better cars that I would rather have. It just makes no compelling case for me. An upscale midsize sedan that is kinda sporty and can be priced into the 30K range with a V6 puts in within range of better cars, like the G37, IS and if you want FWD, the Acura TSX.  All the cars I mentioned are dynamically superior, look better, and arguably have better reliability. Why buy a VW?

2. All VWs AWD systems suck. Period. Has the R32 ever been on the level of the Evolution/STI? Nope. I don't expect that to change anytime soon when the AWD system is FWD based.

3.  :rolleyes: The TSI motors carbon buildup has less to do with the oil used, and more to do with VWs poor engineering. Because of the DI system, fuel doesn't clean off the blow by on the valves like it normally would in a port fuel injection car. Toyota obviously knows something VW doesn't, because their DI motors use both direct and port fuel injection, and I've heard of no issues with carbon build up. Word is that VW will be adding port fuel injection, but for the time being, people are stuck with a poorly designed engine and are trapped paying the dealer to clean up VWs engineering mistake. As usual.

4. Already addressed in my first post. What the feel of a more expensive car, buy one, considering the VWs are very near in price to many of them. Really, I'm not arguing about appliances, I'm talking about drivers cars. Nice dashboards, and smooth rides aren't, and shouldn't be a deal breaker on sporty cars. It's borderline ignorant to make comments comparing a Passat to a 350Z or Lancer, because to an enthusiast, there is no real comparison.

New Passat is a little blah, but why compare it to cars a class above it? I don't think it's uncompetitive in the context of Accords and Sonatas.

If the measure of a car is just its AWD system then yes the R32 is inferior. But you yourself just said the Lancer's interior is crap. WRX is too compared to the R32. And the VR6 sounds better than both. Not to mention if you had one of these cars, where would you ever go where the difference between the AWD system matters? It will still be way better than an FWD car and not as good as a RWD car.

I'd need to see proof that it's a widespread problem as you've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about sometimes.

If a pure driver's car = something uncompromising in the pursuit of driving pleasure, why bother with something like an STi, which is inherently compromised by its body style? Why not go all out... get a used Elise or an old Eclipse GSX? Yes a driver's car should be solid dynamically, but the idea that people wanting their daily drivers to be comfortable places is wrong is ridiculous. I have buddies with WRXs and EVOs. They do feel cheap inside. It may not matter to you (it doesn't to me) but it matters to some folks, and they are not wrong for that. Furthermore VWs, even in their interior quality prime, were not as expensive as say, Audis. There was a price premium but not as extreme as you're making it out to be.

If you're going to troll, you should know what you're talking about.

Quote from: Char on October 22, 2012, 05:10:57 PM
The 350Z is Underwhelming under what measure? Just stop.

Have you ever driven one?  They're kind of crap.  Terrible controls, little feel, and yes a GTI and my old Jetta Wolfsburg were much, much more fun to drive.  As a car to set lap times in a video game, it's great.  But to drive, it's really not fun at all.  Everything about it is underwhelming except for its spec sheet.

Quote from: Raza  on October 24, 2012, 08:46:20 AM
Have you ever driven one?  They're kind of crap.  Terrible controls, little feel, and yes a GTI and my old Jetta Wolfsburg were much, much more fun to drive.  As a car to set lap times in a video game, it's great.  But to drive, it's really not fun at all.  Everything about it is underwhelming except for its spec sheet.

I test drove a 350Z once. Didn't like it. I remember the steering being numb and the clutch being crap.

Quote from: 850CSi on October 24, 2012, 08:52:35 AM
I test drove a 350Z once. Didn't like it. I remember the steering being numb and the clutch being crap.

Shifter's not good either.  Sightlines are similarly awful.  Great cars in GT4 though, if that's your main criteria, it's a fantastic vehicle. 

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=28168.msg1797473#msg1797473 date=1351089980
Have you ever driven one?  They're kind of crap.  Terrible controls, little feel, and yes a GTI and my old Jetta Wolfsburg were much, much more fun to drive.  As a car to set lap times in a video game, it's great.  But to drive, it's really not fun at all.  Everything about it is underwhelming except for its spec sheet.

Driven All 3 version of the 350Z extensively, and it's not only an extremely competent car, but extremely fun. If you believe that a Jetta is more fun, I really have nothing more to say to you on this matter.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on October 24, 2012, 08:11:00 AM
2.0T is still slow even with the extra 80 HP. Also pretty heavy. K24 in the new Civic is a complete departure from the K20A, in pretty much the worst ways possible. 350Z is quick but heavy, impractical and dynamically flawed. Japanese Mustang BEFORE the Coyote makeover.

Like I think I said in this thread none of the cars in this segment are GREAT GREAT, they all have things you have to sacrifice on, I guess owing to their price point. I tell you one thing though. I would def go for a GTI over a Genesis or 350Z for a daily driver.

New Passat is a little blah, but why compare it to cars a class above it? I don't think it's uncompetitive in the context of Accords and Sonatas.

If the measure of a car is just its AWD system then yes the R32 is inferior. But you yourself just said the Lancer's interior is crap. WRX is too compared to the R32. And the VR6 sounds better than both. Not to mention if you had one of these cars, where would you ever go where the difference between the AWD system matters? It will still be way better than an FWD car and not as good as a RWD car.

I'd need to see proof that it's a widespread problem as you've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about sometimes.

If a pure driver's car = something uncompromising in the pursuit of driving pleasure, why bother with something like an STi, which is inherently compromised by its body style? Why not go all out... get a used Elise or an old Eclipse GSX? Yes a driver's car should be solid dynamically, but the idea that people wanting their daily drivers to be comfortable places is wrong is ridiculous. I have buddies with WRXs and EVOs. They do feel cheap inside. It may not matter to you (it doesn't to me) but it matters to some folks, and they are not wrong for that. Furthermore VWs, even in their interior quality prime, were not as expensive as say, Audis. There was a price premium but not as extreme as you're making it out to be.

If you're going to troll, you should know what you're talking about.

I'll just leave this here....
http://www.torquecars.com/audi/2-0-tfsi-tuning.php
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37107
(https://www.tyrolsport.com/images/pages/services/performance-maintenance/carbon-build-up-removal-large.jpg)

Older FSI motor
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114143
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/Frankenstein_07/IMG_1117.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/Frankenstein_07/IMG_1116.jpg)

http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?4518993-carbon-build-up

Not much more for me to say. I'm not a dash stroke, though I do appreciate a nice interior and nothing you can say will convince me that a GTI is a "drivers car" A Mini Cooper? Sure, why not. Evolution/STI/BRZ (still waiting on my test drive), 350Z (yes, it's a mans car, and needs man like inputs, but I like it). The GTI isn't as fun as any of the cars I mentioned, and I find it ugly. I don't like hatchbacks (First generation MS3 and Mini Cooper are exceptions), I don't like the TSI motor, I don't like VWs engineering (or lack there of) I don't like it's stability control system, I don't like anything about it besides its interior. And to me, that isn't a compelling enough case to buy this car over anything else in the used market, or brand new cars in it's class.

No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration. I don't want/or need a racecar. My car is already raw enough for me, and while fun, leaves a little to be desired as when it comes to comfort. But I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of refinement (not excessively so, like in the case of an Elise) for more performance. I don't know where Passats, 350Zs and came in the conversation, but it wasn't me who brought it up.

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 11:14:26 AM
Driven All 3 version of the 350Z extensively, and it's not only an extremely competent car, but extremely fun. If you believe that a Jetta is more fun, I really have nothing more to say to you on this matter.

I've driven the 350Z when it first came out, when it got a power bump, two different 350Z convertibles, and a 370Z coupe.  All disappointments.  If you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 11:39:14 AM
Not much more for me to say. I'm not a dash stroke, though I do appreciate a nice interior and nothing you can say will convince me that a GTI is a "drivers car" A Mini Cooper? Sure, why not. Evolution/STI/BRZ (still waiting on my test drive), 350Z (yes, it's a mans car, and needs man like inputs, but I like it). The GTI isn't as fun as any of the cars I mentioned, and I find it ugly. I don't like hatchbacks (First generation MS3 and Mini Cooper are exceptions), I don't like the TSI motor, I don't like VWs engineering (or lack there of) I don't like it's stability control system, I don't like anything about it besides its interior. And to me, that isn't a compelling enough case to buy this car over anything else in the used market, or brand new cars in it's class.

No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration. I don't want/or need a racecar. My car is already raw enough for me, and while fun, leaves a little to be desired as when it comes to comfort. But I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of refinement (not excessively so, like in the case of an Elise) for more performance. I don't know where Passats, 350Zs and came in the conversation, but it wasn't me who brought it up.

:nutty:

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 11:39:14 AM
No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration.

Performance != driving pleasure

But thanks for playing :clap:

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=28168.msg1797561#msg1797561 date=1351100603
I've driven the 350Z when it first came out, when it got a power bump, two different 350Z convertibles, and a 370Z coupe.  All disappointments.  If you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

I give up. Go race around a neighborhood at 100mph and tell me how the Jetta is more fun than a 350Z. I know more about the Z cars than you do, and I can tell you besides the changes in power (3 different motors) it received a different transmission, wheels and different suspension spec. You weren't driving hard enough, it's really that simple.

Quote from: sportyaccordy on October 24, 2012, 11:45:07 AM
Performance != driving pleasure

But thanks for playing :clap:

For me, they are one in the same, but thanks for playing. I didn't find the MK5 I drove a compelling case for the hype I see on this forum. It was pretty average.

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 11:45:58 AM
I give up. Go race around a neighborhood at 100mph and tell me how the Jetta is more fun than a 350Z. I know more about the Z cars than you do, and I can tell you besides the changes in power (3 different motors) it received a different transmission, wheels and different suspension spec. You weren't driving hard enough, it's really that simple.

Haha....what's the point of a car that doesn't feel "fun" until you're doing over triple digits (which I've done several times in 350Zs)?

I'm glad that you memorized the Nissan brochures, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to knowing about driving.  The 350Z is now and always has been a sedan that seats two and it drives like one. 

This kid is 15. His experience is GT5 and message boards.

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=28168.msg1797572#msg1797572 date=1351101439
Haha....what's the point of a car that doesn't feel "fun" until you're doing over triple digits (which I've done several times in 350Zs)?

I'm glad that you memorized the Nissan brochures, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to knowing about driving.  The 350Z is now and always has been a sedan that seats two and it drives like one. 

As opposed to a economy car that sits 4 people and drives like one? Got it.

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 11:47:00 AM
For me, they are one in the same, but thanks for playing. I didn't find the MK5 I drove a compelling case for the hype I see on this forum. It was pretty average.

Quote from: Raza  on October 24, 2012, 11:43:23 AMIf you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

So it's clearly yes, you can tell how much fun a car is off the spec sheet.  You're not an enthusiast, you're a mag racer. 

Also, "one in the same" is not the expression.  That doesn't even make sense.  It's "one and the same".  Unrelated, but it needed to be said. 

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 12:00:00 PM
As opposed to a economy car that sits 4 people and drives like one? Got it.

The more you talk, the more I'm sure you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Have you ever driven a car? 

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=28168.msg1797578#msg1797578 date=1351101702
The more you talk, the more I'm sure you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Have you ever driven a car?  

:rolleyes:
No. I won't let you pull me any further into this pissing match. I have no emotional involvement any of these cars, because unlike some of you, I'm not a direct extension of what I drive. Though I have to be honest, you're as big of a douche as every single VW driver I've ever met.

And it's hilarious that you call me a magazine racer when I haven't referenced one yet (and if I did, correct me.)  My experience has been absolutely hands on, from working on the cars to driving them, I don't need to vindicate myself by being a pretend journalist and writing "car review" on 5 minute test drives on the dealer lots.

My accusations aren't baseless. VW's do have questionable reliability, and the TSI motors do suffer from carbon build up issues, VW's also make poor track cars and in my opinion, are poor platform for modification (if your into that). What about you?

As I said, he's 15.

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 12:13:31 PMThough I have to be honest, you're as big of a douche as every single VW driver I've ever met.

Glad I didn't disappoint.  

Quote from: Char on October 21, 2012, 07:32:41 PM
Ad Hominem
1.
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I don't like the VW Golf (or any VW product to be honest), and what I drive (none of which are VW products) has anything to do with my opinion on specific automobiles. I told you my criteria for a sporty car, the VW doesn't meet any of those.

LOL

He's asking what you drive (assuming it's anything at all); he isn't attacking your character.  Establishing a foundation for your amusing viewpoint isn't ad hominem, it's just trying to cut through all your nonsense. 

A great laugh none-the-less...keep it up!

Poor form Char... jimmies clearly rustled

Kudos to Raza for making the point that a car that's fun above 100 MPH isn't necessarily a fun daily driver. Also important to drive the point home that a car that drives like a sedan with all the practicality and low running costs of a sedan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a car that drives like a sedan with the impracticality and high running costs of a sports car

Performance you can't access on the street = performance you basically don't have... and it's a net negative when the car makes sacrifices in practical attributes to achieve it. G is better in pretty much every way and way more honest. GTI is not bad either, better in every way for the avg Joe than the 350Z except for bench racing. W/minimal effort it will hang ten with a 350Z from a roll too.

I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 24, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

Except that if he said that shit about BMW's you'd probably be crying to laconian or catman to get him banned.



:devil: :lol:

Quote from: thecarnut on October 24, 2012, 02:34:07 PM
Except that if he said that shit about BMW's you'd probably be crying to laconian or catman to get him banned.



:devil: :lol:

Well, of course!

"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 24, 2012, 03:43:10 PM
"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

Apropos fun base versions. Apparently the new base 114i is not that bad. More torque at 1100rpm then the Mini Cooper puts out at 4250rpm.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 24, 2012, 03:43:10 PM
"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

Exactly. There was an element of fun to the sub-100HP early '90s Protege that we had as a spare car years ago, to be honest.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 23, 2012, 08:51:48 PM
In other news, I drove an LR2 yesterday. I really liked it.

Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked. ;)

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 24, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked. ;)

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

I used to drive my Jetta off road through mud, sand, over small boulders and rutted hills with Falken Azenis tires. It never blinked... except that one time in the mud next to the bee hives...

Quote from: Char on October 24, 2012, 05:48:35 AM
1. Again, not interested in who has a faster dashboard. I think FWD cars, especially those that have an stability control system that cannot be disabled, are generally not for people who enjoy driving cars. Is the Evolution cheap? Very, and I can understand why someone would prefer the environment of the Passat more than the Lancer. However, that is not my admission that the Passat is a good car, because for it's price, there are better cars that I would rather have. It just makes no compelling case for me. An upscale midsize sedan that is kinda sporty and can be priced into the 30K range with a V6 puts in within range of better cars, like the G37, IS and if you want FWD, the Acura TSX.  All the cars I mentioned are dynamically superior, look better, and arguably have better reliability. Why buy a VW?

So your answer to a point on the value of a mainstream midsize car is to reference a Lexus compact? WTF? Load up a G37 with the options you want and price it against a Passat with a similar options package and get back to me. Passat runs $20K to $33K MSRP. I'd find it tough to squeak in under $40K with a new G37. The real-life price for a Passat with a reasonable options package is under $30K. Same as a decently equipped Camry or Accord.

Quote
2. All VWs AWD systems suck. Period. Has the R32 ever been on the level of the Evolution/STI? Nope. I don't expect that to change anytime soon when the AWD system is FWD based.

As has been mentioned, Evo is FWD based as well. You still have not articulated WHY you think any of these systems are inferior to others, except to say they "suck" and they're supposedly different than what's on the Evo. Every reviewer and video online would pretty much prove that VW can do AWD the right way. And what year is this? Nobody has given a shit about the Evo since like 2005 anyway. Mitsubishi has to be one foot inside of a bankruptcy courtroom in the US at this point.

Quote
3.  :rolleyes: The TSI motors carbon buildup has less to do with the oil used, and more to do with VWs poor engineering. Because of the DI system, fuel doesn't clean off the blow by on the valves like it normally would in a port fuel injection car. Toyota obviously knows something VW doesn't, because their DI motors use both direct and port fuel injection, and I've heard of no issues with carbon build up. Word is that VW will be adding port fuel injection, but for the time being, people are stuck with a poorly designed engine and are trapped paying the dealer to clean up VWs engineering mistake. As usual.

The photos you posted are troll bait. Engines have been producing carbons since the day the internal combustion engine was invented. If you follow the proper oil recommendations and maintenance schedule there is no reason a TSI won't last forever. On most VW enthusiast boards, the consensus has been that the photos you posted may look alarming, but don't really mean anything in terms of reliability or performance.

Quote
4. Already addressed in my first post. What the feel of a more expensive car, buy one, considering the VWs are very near in price to many of them. Really, I'm not arguing about appliances, I'm talking about drivers cars. Nice dashboards, and smooth rides aren't, and shouldn't be a deal breaker on sporty cars. It's borderline ignorant to make comments comparing a Passat to a 350Z or Lancer, because to an enthusiast, there is no real comparison.

You really must be 15 years old to think a 350Z or a Lancer is the height of what is considered an enthusiast's driving machine. Additionally, most people don't have enough money to buy a dedicated "enthusiast car" and a dedicated "appliance." The majority of people want something that is well-built, comfortable, has the features/interior they want and no slouch. The current Passat is somewhat "appliance-like," but the B5, B5.5 and B6 models were most certainly not.

In addition, I don't think a $20K Passat or $16K Jetta qualify as being "very near in price" to luxury cars. For comparison's sake, the Passat's own cousin the A4 starts at $32K for a base model and the IS (we'll count that as a Jetta-sized car) starts at $35K ? way more than double the price.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 24, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked. ;)

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

I don't think any SUV really 'handles', by nature they are compromised. High up in the air, with soft springs and big tires with lots of sidewall. But I liked the LR2 because it's comfortable, quiet, and 'right sized'; sometimes "Compact" SUV's can feel a little big and bulky.

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 24, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

I completely agree.

Also, 350/370Z > GTI. However, I'd probably buy the (4-door) GTI because it is far more practical for me.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 24, 2012, 12:16:39 PM
As I said, he's 15.

Actually, the most interesting thing about this thread to me is that he has yet to respond to this accusation. :lol:

If a 350/70Z drives similarly to the G37s coupe I tested the chassis, steering and handling would be fine (and above the GTI).

However, Raza's complaints are about the gearbox/tranny and the car I drove was an auto (which worked ok, although inferior to the latest 8-speed "feels like a DCT box" and inferior to say, a GTI's DSG). Maybe the manual in the Z sucks but I think it's more personal preference.

Quote from: 850CSi on October 24, 2012, 05:12:22 PM
Actually, the most interesting thing about this thread to me is that he has yet to respond to this accusation. :lol:

Right, because I've said it like three times. And he says he drives "Various main-streamers that I treat as such". I take that as "I drive my mom's Camry".



There's nothing wrong with that, but don't pretend you are so much better than everyone else, and you only drive your mom's Camry.

Quote from: Galaxy on October 24, 2012, 03:58:12 PM
Apropos fun base versions. Apparently the new base 114i is not that bad. More torque at 1100rpm then the Mini Cooper puts out at 4250rpm.

I've not driven the new 1-Series and I've not read to many reviews about them. It's a car that doesn't interest me.

But you did rouse my interest in the 114i so I checked it out and found a quick review about it from Focus.de. Looks like a decent economy model. I was expecting this car to be powered by the new 3-cylinder motor but it's a detuned 1.6-l 4-cylinder turbo motor...

Quote from: TurboDan on October 24, 2012, 04:21:33 PM

The photos you posted are troll bait. Engines have been producing carbons since the day the internal combustion engine was invented. If you follow the proper oil recommendations and maintenance schedule there is no reason a TSI won't last forever. On most VW enthusiast boards, the consensus has been that the photos you posted may look alarming, but don't really mean anything in terms of reliability or performance.

I don't know how you pulled me back into this after I told myself I wouldn't respond, but I wanted to quickly correct you -
http://www.avalonmotorsports.com/blog/2010/11/technical-bulletin-is-the-valve-carbon-build-up-on-your-audi-or-volkswagen-something-to-be-concerned-about/

And yes excessive carbon build up will lower horsepower. Honest question here though, have you ever worked on a car outside of simple maintenance? Carbon build up like that is NOT normal. I wish I took pictures of my engine when I removed the exhaust manifold/Intake manifold. They were nearly spotless.

Carbon buildup on the valves is a problem that all direct injected engines suffer from to a degree, just take a look at older Toyota & Lexus direct injected cars. The problem results from the valves no longer being flushed with gasoline. There are several reasons why VW AG seems to be more affected. Firstly, while VW was not the first to implement DI, they were the first to crank out DI engines in the millions. Secondly VW used to use a very aggressive stratified injection method, that may have increased the problem.  

TSI engines get carbon build up, VQ35 has excessive oil consumption issues, to the point that they issued a TSB. If you buy a modern car odds are you will become a company's beta tester

(http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1311948481105.gif)

Point still stands, GTI serves its purpose way better than a Z car, and with mild work can hang with even a modded Z car "performance wise" while being way more practical + cheaper to run

Yet another reason why the BRZ>GTI.  There's port and direct injection in the BRZ. :praise:  Hooray for no carbon build up.

Quote from: MrH on October 25, 2012, 06:57:30 AM
Yet another reason why the BRZ>GTI.  There's port and direct injection in the BRZ. :praise:  Hooray for no carbon build up.

Corolla coupe sucks.  Can't even fit an armoire in the trunk.  Also, you can't even get a roof rack on the BRZ.  How am I supposed to take my kayak up a mountain pass to my cabin?  At least under performance accessories on Subaru's BYO, they have not one, but five different license plate frames!  At least you can get a severe weather companion, which for the BRZ is just a friend with a cell phone who can call for an ambulance when you crash your BRZ because of light rain. 

:devil:  :lol:

Quote from: Raza  on October 25, 2012, 07:25:13 AM
Corolla coupe sucks.  Can't even fit an armoire in the trunk.  Also, you can't even get a roof rack on the BRZ.  How am I supposed to take my kayak up a mountain pass to my cabin?  At least under performance accessories on Subaru's BYO, they have not one, but five different license plate frames!  At least you can get a severe weather companion, which for the BRZ is just a friend with a cell phone who can call for an ambulance when you crash your BRZ because of light rain. 

:devil:  :lol:

You sure talk up what a mountain man you are, but in actuality, you're more of a city dwelling fashionista.  We all know the truth.  Exactly why you'd want to buy an armoire in the first place. :lol:

Quote from: MrH on October 25, 2012, 07:30:12 AM
You sure talk up what a mountain man you are, but in actuality, you're more of a city dwelling fashionista.  We all know the truth.  Exactly why you'd want to buy an armoire in the first place. :lol:

I need an armoire to keep my flannel shirts in at the cabin.  Duh.   :tounge:

Quote from: MrH on October 25, 2012, 06:57:30 AM
Yet another reason why the BRZ>GTI.  There's port and direct injection in the BRZ. :praise:  Hooray for no carbon build up.

Plus it's RWD!

RWD = boner time! RWD impresses the ladies (Just whisper those words in their ear - they don't know what the fuck you're talking about but it'll turn them on!!!).  :devil:

Quote from: sportyaccordy on October 25, 2012, 06:40:15 AM
TSI engines get carbon build up, VQ35 has excessive oil consumption issues, to the point that they issued a TSB. If you buy a modern car odds are you will become a company's beta tester

(http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1311948481105.gif)

Point still stands, GTI serves its purpose way better than a Z car, and with mild work can hang with even a modded Z car "performance wise" while being way more practical + cheaper to run

How do you come to a conclusion like this? Is the GTI potentially a more practical DD? Sure, I can agree with that, but does it mean it's a better car? No. Not even close. And I'd love to know what you consider "mild work" and "cheap" considering 350Zs are very inexpensive and a new GTI is in the 24K range.

And for Raza, I thought I was crazy, but I continued to read around about the Z car. Certainly I didn't agree with you, but the media and owners don't either. You're entitled to your opinion, so long as you realize it's such.

I like the GTI. I'm finnding out that they're as cheap as my Yaris, now.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 25, 2012, 12:45:19 PM
I like the GTI. I'm finnding out that they're as cheap as my Yaris, now.

I don't, and I wouldn't buy one, no matter the price.  :huh:

I think that's foolish; every car has a place to be fun to drive.


You'd take a Ford Fiesta over a GTI? I like the Fiesta, it's a fun car. But it's no GTI.

Quote from: Char on October 25, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
And for Raza, I thought I was crazy, but I continued to read around about the Z car. Certainly I didn't agree with you, but the media and owners don't either. You're entitled to your opinion, so long as you realize it's such.

Yes, the 350Z has its fair share of supporters.  All of whom are idiots. 

Well, there are forum links for pretty much any car where people have found a problem with it.

Does the kind of fuel used (the octane), effects the amount of carbon build-up in the valves?

Quote from: AltinD on October 25, 2012, 01:54:34 PM
Does the kind of fuel used (the octane), effects the amount of carbon build-up in the valves?

Yes diesels do not have a problem.  :lol:

I don't know why, and it would be interesting to know. It might have to do with diesel self-combusting, and/or being very hard to vaporize. In that little diesel fumes would make it to recirculation. Maybe MX793, or someone could chime in.

But no, the type of fuel used apparently has no impact.

But VW did have problems years back with their diesel engines, but I don't recall exactly what it was, I think cold weather related

I'm guessing higher exhaust temps?  They might be having problems with current diesels too.  Older diesels used a prechambers a lot of the time.

Quote from: Char on October 25, 2012, 12:46:32 PM
I don't, and I wouldn't buy one, no matter the price.  :huh:

bad troll is bad at trolling

Quote from: Char on October 25, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
How do you come to a conclusion like this? Is the GTI potentially a more practical DD? Sure, I can agree with that, but does it mean it's a better car? No. Not even close. And I'd love to know what you consider "mild work" and "cheap" considering 350Zs are very inexpensive and a new GTI is in the 24K range.

And for Raza, I thought I was crazy, but I continued to read around about the Z car. Certainly I didn't agree with you, but the media and owners don't either. You're entitled to your opinion, so long as you realize it's such.

So, uh, how old are you and what do you drive?

Quote from: Submariner on October 25, 2012, 07:30:25 PM
So, uh, how old are you and what do you drive?

Like I said, Mercury Villager.

I like this Char guy. He's doing a good job at keeping you turkeys at bay - could use a bit more of that around here. The forced mob behavior is a bit unbecoming I might add.

Quote from: GoCougs on October 25, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
I like this Char guy. He's doing a good job at keeping you turkeys at bay - could use a bit more of that around here. The forced mob behavior is a bit unbecoming I might add.

Hon, you can't play both sides against the middle. Two pages ago, you hated him.

Quote from: MrH on October 25, 2012, 02:32:28 PM
I'm guessing higher exhaust temps?

Maybe.

Quote
  They might be having problems with current diesels too.  Older diesels used a prechambers a lot of the time.

However the majority switched over to DI several years before gassers did.

Quote from: GoCougs on October 25, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
I like this Char guy. He's doing a good job at keeping you turkeys at bay - could use a bit more of that around here. The forced mob behavior is a bit unbecoming I might add.

People that say objectively stupid shit tend to mobilize other people against them.

Quote from: 2o6 on October 25, 2012, 10:03:29 PM
Hon, you can't play both sides against the middle. Two pages ago, you hated him.

I don't hate anyone.

Quote from: 850CSi on October 26, 2012, 08:55:02 AM
People that say objectively stupid shit tend to mobilize other people against them.

People by virtue of being new or of outlier option tend to mobilize other people against them too...

Quote from: GoCougs on October 26, 2012, 10:11:38 AM
People by virtue of being new or of outlier option tend to mobilize other people against them too...

True.

I'm gonna go with the stupid shit/snarky attitude on this one, though.

Quote from: Char on October 25, 2012, 12:43:52 PM
How do you come to a conclusion like this? Is the GTI potentially a more practical DD? Sure, I can agree with that, but does it mean it's a better car? No. Not even close. And I'd love to know what you consider "mild work" and "cheap" considering 350Zs are very inexpensive and a new GTI is in the 24K range.

You can buy a used MKV for <$10K, its pretty much the same car. Another $1000 you can buy 350Z beating "performance".

Quote from: 2o6 on October 25, 2012, 10:03:29 PM
Hon, you can't play both sides against the middle. Two pages ago, you hated him.

Hon?  What are you, my 55 year old aunt?