Not much info yet...I, particularly, like the displacement of 1750cc.
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20130212&Category=AUTO0101&ArtNo=302120381&Ref=AR&Profile=1148&MaxW=640&Border=0&Fiat-Chrysler-unveils-Alfa-Romeo-4C-supercar)
QuoteThe Fiat-Chrysler group unveiled the production version of the all-new Alfa Romeo 4C Tuesday — a sexy supercar that will spearhead the brand's return to the United States later this year.
The curvaceous mid-engine coupe will debut at the International Motor Show in Geneva next month. It is a rear-wheel drive sports car powered by the company's four-cylinder 1750 Turbo Petrol all-aluminum engine mated to Alfa's TCT twin clutch automatic transmission.
The new engine features direct fuel injection, dual continuous variable valve timing, a turbocharger and "a revolutionary scavenging control system that gets rid of any turbo lag," the company promises. The dry-clutch transmission is paddle controlled. Alfa is keeping mum on the performance figures but promises a weight-to-power ratio of less than 4 kg per horse thanks to an all-carbon fiber chassis.
The 4C will be the first Alfa equipped with the new Alfa DNA selector, which will allow the driver to set the car for four different modes: Dynamic, Natural, All Weather and — for the first time — Race.
"The new Alfa Romeo 4C is the result of experience built up with the Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione model produced in the Maserati plant in Modena," the company said in a statement Tuesday. "(I)t will be available for purchase in 2013, marking the return of the Italian brand to the United States."
The design of the Alfa Romeo 4C hews closely to the concept, which was unveiled to critical acclaim at the Geneva Show in 2011, winning numerous design awards in Europe. Its designers were inspired by the 33 Stradale and other legendary Alfas. But the company says the carbon fiber interior will be a major step up from current offerings.
Pricing has not yet been released, but the car is expected in U.S. showrooms late this year.
Lotus Elise by Alfa Romeo?
Yes^
Quote from: Raza on February 12, 2013, 11:40:25 AM
Lotus Elise by Alfa Romeo?
You're suggesting that they, visually, resemble one another?
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2013, 04:42:12 PM
You're suggesting that they, visually, resemble one another?
I think he means the concept in general.
(http://img4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Alfa-Romeo-4C-19-fotoshowImageNew-7c4cec92-660630.jpg)
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2013, 04:42:12 PM
You're suggesting that they, visually, resemble one another?
Small, ultra-lightweight, mid-engine, 1.8L I4 engine. The only thing it has that the Elise didn't was a turbo. The Elise was either NA or supercharged.
Allegedly this thing weighs less then 1000kg (2204lbs). That would be impressive if true, even if it is only for an entry level stripped version.
Don't like the wheels, but looks great besides that. But has Alfa made a genuinely good driving car in awhile? The 8C was beautiful, and by all accounts, an awful car.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 12, 2013, 05:15:55 PM
I think he means the concept in general.
Judging by the information given...carbon fibre chasis, less than 4 kg per horse, the 1750 TBi puts out 232bhp...it should be a, considerable, step above the Elise.
Quote from: FoMoJo on February 12, 2013, 05:37:47 PM
Judging by the information given...carbon fibre chasis, less than 4 kg per horse, the 1750 TBi puts out 232bhp...it should be a, considerable, step above the Elise.
The Exige S 240 had 240 hp and weighed under 950 kg (<4 kg / hp).
Quote from: MrH on February 12, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
Don't like the wheels, but looks great besides that. But has Alfa made a genuinely good driving car in awhile? The 8C was beautiful, and by all accounts, an awful car.
I've heard their FWD models are the shit.
Other then the idiotic alfa grille I like it. So how much will it cost? Just the cost of the car, not keeping it running.
I don't like the scoops on the rear fenders, but otherwise it's really hot.
According to Auto Motor und Sport the competitors to this car in Europe are the Peugeot RCZ, Honda CR-Z and Toyota GT-86. No mention of the Lotus Elise.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 02, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
According to Auto Motor und Sport the competitors to this car in Europe are the Peugeot RCZ, Honda CR-Z and Toyota GT-86. No mention of the Lotus Elise.
If those are the cars identified as the primary competitors, it leads me to believe that the 4C will be priced similar to those (and much lower than the Elise). While the thought that this car will be priced at $30k or less is exciting, I find it very hard to believe that a car made mostly of carbon fiber will be anywhere near that inexpensive. This thing is likely going to cost $50K+, which is squarely in Elise (and Boxster) territory.
For <$30k, though, I'd find a way to buy one.
Quote from: Rupert on March 02, 2013, 07:09:19 PM
For <$30k, though, I'd find a way to buy one.
If it was <$30K, I'd be writing a check right now.
Indeed. I hope it drives good!
Quote from: Raza on February 12, 2013, 11:40:25 AM
Lotus Elise by Alfa Romeo?
Except Lotus was smart enough to borrow a Toyota engine. :lol:
(I kid, I kid... I'd roll the dice on an Alfa... but I fashion myself as a reliability risk-taker...)
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2013, 06:20:36 PM
If those are the cars identified as the primary competitors, it leads me to believe that the 4C will be priced similar to those (and much lower than the Elise). While the thought that this car will be priced at $30k or less is exciting, I find it very hard to believe that a car made mostly of carbon fiber will be anywhere near that inexpensive. This thing is likely going to cost $50K+, which is squarely in Elise (and Boxster) territory.
You never know.
I've seen magazines here classify the Infiniti M and Lexus GS as being competitors to the Honda Legend (your Acura RL) and Hyundai Grandeur (your Hyundai Azera)...
CR-Z is really the odd man out in that group. The others are at least sporty cars.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 03, 2013, 02:49:49 AM
You never know.
I've seen magazines here classify the Infiniti M and Lexus GS as being competitors to the Honda Legend (your Acura RL) and Hyundai Grandeur (your Hyundai Azera)...
I don't know about European pricing, but in the US the M, GS, and RL all cost about the same (at least in V6 form). Starting prices are within a few hundred dollars. The Azera/Grandeur is significantly cheaper, we'd be comparing the Genesis instead.
Car and Driver estimated the price at $86k.. yikes..
Quote from: MX793 on March 03, 2013, 05:25:18 AM
I don't know about European pricing, but in the US the M, GS, and RL all cost about the same (at least in V6 form). Starting prices are within a few hundred dollars. The Azera/Grandeur is significantly cheaper, we'd be comparing the Genesis instead.
They're most likely put in the same class with the Legend and Grandeur because of pricing and because the people considering these cars will generally cross-shop among the imports.
So back on topic of the lovely 4C, no idea why AMS think it is will compete at the Peugeot RCZ end of the market............. this is a low volume specialist sports car, built on a carbon fibre chassis. It was never going to be cheap. Estimates are that it will be in the €50 - 60k bracket. That makes far more costly than an Elise and above Boxster money until you raid the lengthy and pricey options list.
I was thinking 60K + myself. Now perhaps they will be unreliable as hell and you could pick up one cheap in 10 years or so and pull off the Alfa shit out of them and put something good in it.
Confirmed today: 240hp (not sure if DIN, or SAE), no world yet on price.
Oh god, have you guys seen the headlights? Ruins it.
This is nice but a supercar it ain't.
Love this car, even the headlights. It will have a great niche in the US market since the Elise is no longer sold here (nor the the new Exige, for street use anyway). Should be pretty stonking quick too. I have always loved driving the Elises, especially the supercharged ones, but I think this car will likely deliver substantially higher performance. That chassis wasn't super stiff and the build quality on those cars generally verged on kit car like. As bad as some say Alfa reliability is, it can't be anywhere near as bad as Lotus. Overall, I think this car will be more on level with the old Exige 240/260, performance wise.
Can't wait to see this powertrain thrown into the upcoming spider.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on March 05, 2013, 02:55:36 PM
This is nice but a supercar it ain't.
So true. Sports car? Yes. SUPER car? No.
As much as I welcome a mid-engine Alfa sports car, I was also hoping to see something a little more mainstream to give the Alfa Romeo brand the exposure it so desperately needs over here. I really wish they would make a splash with a three-model range (at introduction) and build from there. As it is, the 4C is little more than a toe in the huge ocean that is the US car market.
Quote from: Madman on March 06, 2013, 06:16:12 PM
So true. Sports car? Yes. SUPER car? No.
As much as I welcome a mid-engine Alfa sports car, I was also hoping to see something a little more mainstream to give the Alfa Romeo brand the exposure it so desperately needs over here. I really wish they would make a splash with a three-model range (at introduction) and build from there. As it is, the 4C is little more than a toe in the huge ocean that is the US car market.
The more mainstream car you are referring to will be the new Spider that will be co-developed with Mazda on the next Miata chassis. Unfortunately, it will be a few years before it launches.
Okay, so in Germany the "Launch Edition" of this - limited to 1000 world wide, loaded with all options - will cost € 61.000. Allegedly the regular cars will start with a 4 at the front.
Quote from: MX793 on March 02, 2013, 08:21:21 PM
If it was <$30K, I'd be writing a check right now.
I wouldn't trade the Z4 for one.
Seriously, why couldn't this be more accessable? Would make a dramatic entry against the pony cars and Toyota twins.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Seriously, why couldn't this be more accessable? Would make a dramatic entry against the pony cars and Toyota twins.
Alfa's already partnered with Mazda to make a cheap sports car based off the ND (next gen Miata) platform.
Though people speculate it will probably be more expensive than the Miata to set the two apart.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 12, 2013, 11:18:08 AM
Alfa's already partnered with Mazda to make a cheap sports car based off the ND (next gen Miata) platform.
Though people speculate it will probably be more expensive than the Miata to set the two apart.
It also won't have the Miata engine so I see no need to get one. Unless you've got a Miata at home to drive when the Alfa's in the shop.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Seriously, why couldn't this be more accessable? Would make a dramatic entry against the pony cars and Toyota twins.
Mid engine, low volume sports cars won't be cheap. Not enough volume to spread the fixed costs.
Quote from: MrH on March 12, 2013, 12:21:27 PM
Mid engine, low volume sports cars won't be cheap. Not enough volume to spread the fixed costs.
Coulda done like a backwards Punto or similar....
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2013, 12:47:50 PM
Coulda done like a backwards Punto or similar....
...can't tell if serious.
But yeah, not possible (or at least, not possible and have it work halfway decent), and wouldn't really save you from a lot of those fixed costs.
Quote from: MrH on March 12, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
...can't tell if serious.
But yeah, not possible (or at least, not possible and have it work halfway decent), and wouldn't really save you from a lot of those fixed costs.
Couldn't they do what Toyota did with the MR-2?
Quote from: thecarnut on March 12, 2013, 01:26:04 PM
Couldn't they do what Toyota did with the MR-2?
Pretty sure Toyota lost money on every MR-2. There's a reason it doesn't exist any more.
The MR-2 probably sold in decent volume too compared to what this would. Toyota has bigger purchasing power, more parts in the bin to use too. Not saying it's impossible, but offering something like this at bargain basement prices isn't all that realistic. The cheaper they go, the more certain they need to be about the volume they can sell to justify it.
Oh I see, makes sense. A $30k 4C still probably wouldn't sell that well.
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2013, 12:47:50 PM
Coulda done like a backwards Punto or similar....
Quote from: MrH on March 12, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
...can't tell if serious.
But yeah, not possible (or at least, not possible and have it work halfway decent), and wouldn't really save you from a lot of those fixed costs.
The Fiat Group does have prior experience with this. The Fiat X-1/9 was essentially a backwards Fiat 128 underneath it's Bertone designed body.
(http://all-carz.com/data_images/fiat-x19-bertone-five-speed/fiat-x19-bertone-five-speed-10.jpg)
Quote from: 2o6 on March 12, 2013, 11:16:32 AM
Seriously, why couldn't this be more accessable? Would make a dramatic entry against the pony cars and Toyota twins.
You realize this car has a) a carbon fiber chassis and b) a more expensive brand attached to it than Toyota or the domestics, right? From what I have heard, the car will be priced similarly to a base Boxster, yet be a half a ton lighter, offer more torque, and slightly less HP.
As I described already, the more accessible Alfa will be the twin to the next Miata, with a more powerful engine.
Let me repeat again....... this is not intended to be an affordable high volume car.
It is a low volume specialist car. A halo model, if you like. They are only going to make 2000 a year. As Longhorn says, it has some expensive stuff in there, like the carbon fibre chassis.
I am sure that they will have little problem selling the cars that they do make.
Of course what this does mean is that it is not the car to "save" Alfa. They need a volume model for that. Next year's Giulia, if it is as good as I hope it turns out to be, could be the one that people buy in quantity, a bit like they did with the 156 when it first launched and waiting lists quickly exceeded a year.
Oh wow, I didn't realize it had a carbon fiber chassis. Yeah, that's pretty nutty.
2000 units/year is unbelievably low volume though. That's probably the lowest volume planned for a production car I've heard of. I guarantee they're losing money on it if that's all they're making.
Quote from: MrH on March 12, 2013, 04:16:48 PM
Oh wow, I didn't realize it had a carbon fiber chassis. Yeah, that's pretty nutty.
2000 units/year is unbelievably low volume though. That's probably the lowest volume planned for a production car I've heard of. I guarantee they're losing money on it if that's all they're making.
Enzo doesn't count as production?
Quote from: Raza on March 12, 2013, 05:03:12 PM
Enzo doesn't count as production?
Guess I should preface that with <$100k.
Quote from: MrH on March 12, 2013, 04:16:48 PM
Oh wow, I didn't realize it had a carbon fiber chassis. Yeah, that's pretty nutty.
2000 units/year is unbelievably low volume though. That's probably the lowest volume planned for a production car I've heard of. I guarantee they're losing money on it if that's all they're making.
That is the stated volume right now. Keeping it low like that is probably a safe bet to gauge demand; I guarantee they will expand production should there be high levels of demand and a favorable response...Note that Alfa is sending more of the premo launch editions to the US than even Europe. This model is a feeler for U.S. demand/response for the Alfa brand on a broader scale. Yes, it is still expensive, but no where near 8C territory. I think it is smart to start on the higher end, especially given the distribution network in the U.S. Sergio is very serious about turning Alfa around, and having seen Gulia 1:1 clay models in the studio, I am very excited about the future of the brand.
Will probably be too costly and have a peaky powerband. We'll see.
Quote from: Char on March 12, 2013, 07:58:11 PM
Will probably be too costly and have a peaky powerband. We'll see.
Read Colin's post, or mine for that matter. It is not meant to be affordable, it is meant to test the brand in the U.S. on a wilder scale than the 8C.
As far as the powerband, it is a turbo, so I don't imagine it being very peaky. We will see I guess.
http://95octane.com/2014/04/16/2015-alfa-romeo-4c-us-release-date/ (http://95octane.com/2014/04/16/2015-alfa-romeo-4c-us-release-date/)
June's here... have they been spotted in any ports???
Quote from: LonghornTX on March 13, 2013, 12:36:36 PM
Read Colin's post, or mine for that matter. It is not meant to be affordable, it is meant to test the brand in the U.S. on a wilder scale than the 8C.
As far as the powerband, it is a turbo, so I don't imagine it being very peaky. We will see I guess.
Turbo engines generally have peakier powerbands- a turbo can only hit max efficiency within a small range of airflow or RPMs. Reviews say it's pretty midrange heavy with a disappointing top end. I think it's the same motor that was in the 500 Abarth, pumped to the max.
Quote from: MrH on February 12, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
But has Alfa made a genuinely good driving car in awhile?
This was the last one.
(http://www.alfaromeo.de/de/media/image/models/qv/geschichte/qv-09-doppia-valenza-large.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_75 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_75)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 08, 2014, 12:06:54 PM
Turbo engines generally have peakier powerbands- a turbo can only hit max efficiency within a small range of airflow or RPMs. Reviews say it's pretty midrange heavy with a disappointing top end. I think it's the same motor that was in the 500 Abarth, pumped to the max.
It's probably more accurate to say that turbos offer a peakier torque curve (and generally a flatter power curve).
Quote from: MX793 on June 08, 2014, 03:10:05 PM
It's probably more accurate to say that turbos offer a peakier torque curve (and generally a flatter power curve).
Yes this is more accurate. Turbo motors will make peak power for like 3000 RPMs, over which time torque is falling off precipitously.
supercar?
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/AUTO03/306190036/0/auto01/Alfa-Romeo-4C-one-spicy-meatball (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140619/AUTO03/306190036/0/auto01/Alfa-Romeo-4C-one-spicy-meatball)
(http://multimedia.detroitnews.com/pix/97/40/53/be/6a/8d/20140617143801_8.jpg)
Consider me smitten. Alfa is back in the U.S. after nearly three decades away and it's well worth the wait. The 4C is a rolling video game console. Thank the wedding of Chrysler and Fiat for this child prodigy. You'll find it at 86 Fiat-Alfa dealerships this fall.
Jesus. Christ.
Anyone know a good crossroads? I think I'm ready to sell my soul.
I have one, in black, which looks really good on my windowsill.
(hot wheels)
Oh, I thought you meant you had a black soul you displayed on your windowsill.