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Can anyone explain why four sleepy suburbs of Nashville (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Mufreesboro and Lewisburg) should have need of a vehicle that can withstand blasts from land mines?  Especially Lewisburg, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere?

This increased militarisation of domestic American police forces is an alarming trend.

Full article here......

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441 (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441)

Quote from: Madman on September 04, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
Can anyone explain why four sleepy suburbs of Nashville (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Mufreesboro and Lewisburg) should have need of a vehicle that can withstand blasts from land mines?  Especially Lewisburg, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere?

This increased militarisation of domestic American police forces is an alarming trend.

Full article here......

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441 (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441)

Could be a case of the boys wanting their toys.  That and "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

What a complete waste of money!

Quote from: MiataJohn on September 04, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Could be a case of the boys wanting their toys.  That and "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

Lots of times it's federal money.  Use it or lose it.  It would be best lost.

Small dicks

Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 04, 2013, 09:40:09 PM
Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

So much for wasting taxpayer money...

And the LE-spec SWAT vehicles are pretty damn tough as well.  MRAPs FTW.

Quote from: S204STi on September 04, 2013, 09:45:37 PMSo much for wasting taxpayer money...

It's kinda like government recycling. Many of these vehicles would literally sit on a base and rot away into scrap if they weren't donated to local government in these programs. The same program gives PD's rifles...the military had so many of them is storage, they were actually giving unissied Vietnam-era M-16's out at one point. Departments would have them rebuilt to semi auto with modern furniture at a fraction of the cost of buying new AR's.

QuoteAnd the LE-spec SWAT vehicles are pretty damn tough as well.  MRAPs FTW.

They are, but they're generally not built to withstand combat-level attacks like the MRAP's. The funny thing is, this isn't really anything new. The LAPD developed SWAT in the 70's and used a surplus APC with a makeshift battering ram welded on the front.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 05, 2013, 06:44:45 AM
It's kinda like government recycling. Many of these vehicles would literally sit on a base and rot away into scrap if they weren't donated to local government in these programs. The same program gives PD's rifles...the military had so many of them is storage, they were actually giving unissied Vietnam-era M-16's out at one point. Departments would have them rebuilt to semi auto with modern furniture at a fraction of the cost of buying new AR's.

They are, but they're generally not built to withstand combat-level attacks like the MRAP's. The funny thing is, this isn't really anything new. The LAPD developed SWAT in the 70's and used a surplus APC with a makeshift battering ram welded on the front.

There's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 05, 2013, 07:35:41 AM
There's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

True.  Somehow I can't imagine Andy and Barney driving one of these things through Mayberry.

If I was a cop busting into a meth lab, I'd prefer a MRAP to a makeshift truck.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 05, 2013, 07:35:41 AMThere's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

Quote from: Madman on September 05, 2013, 09:34:31 AMTrue.  Somehow I can't imagine Andy and Barney driving one of these things through Mayberry.

Your image of small city law enforcement is rather ignorant...but there's nothing uncommon about that. I've worked in small community law enforcement all my career, so I've heard all the stupid stuff people have to say. People don't realize that more that 80% of this nation's police officers work for what are statistically considered "small departments" and that we do everything that big city PD's do...just with fewer officers and less resources...when they make ignorant comments like, "Why do you wear a vest? You're just a small town cop...nothing ever happens around here!" Realistically, most officers in small communities are more well-rounded than our big city brethren because we DO have to do everything...we don't just take an initial report and call in the detective, evidence tech, or SWAT team because we ARE the detective, evidence tech, and SWAT team!

I'm getting bad 80s cartoon flashbacks

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/18/Copslogo.jpg/220px-Copslogo.jpg)

Quote from: bing_oh on September 05, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

Your image of small city law enforcement is rather ignorant...but there's nothing uncommon about that. I've worked in small community law enforcement all my career, so I've heard all the stupid stuff people have to say. People don't realize that more that 80% of this nation's police officers work for what are statistically considered "small departments" and that we do everything that big city PD's do...just with fewer officers and less resources...when they make ignorant comments like, "Why do you wear a vest? You're just a small town cop...nothing ever happens around here!" Realistically, most officers in small communities are more well-rounded than our big city brethren because we DO have to do everything...we don't just take an initial report and call in the detective, evidence tech, or SWAT team because we ARE the detective, evidence tech, and SWAT team!

My local sheriff didn't use to wear a vest... then he was shot and killed on a seemingly routine traffic stop.  Now they all wear vests, all the time...

Look up Roger Coursey.

Quote from: S204STi on September 05, 2013, 11:29:34 AMMy local sheriff didn't use to wear a vest... then he was shot and killed on a seemingly routine traffic stop.  Now they all wear vests, all the time...

Look up Roger Coursey.

Most departments today have policies regarding mandatory vest wear on duty. I never go without mine and don't understand officers who do. Yea, they're hot and uncomfortable, but it would be even less comfortable to be shot in the chest without one. And the wearability is getting progressively better...I've switched to an external uniform-pattern carrier for a little more breathability and love it compared to my older concealed vest. The thinking is that there's guaranteed to always be a firearm on every scene an officer responds to...he brings it with him. For that reason alone, officers should always wear vests.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 05, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

That's still a difference. Whether its needed or not is another debate, but you can't argue that these types of vehicles are kept (if used or not) by increasingly numerous departments throughout the country.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 05, 2013, 10:17:02 PMThat's still a difference. Whether its needed or not is another debate, but you can't argue that these types of vehicles are kept (if used or not) by increasingly numerous departments throughout the country.

And? It's an armored vehicle. Police departments once used (and still use) old Brinks-type trucks for the same purposes. That these are made to military specs (obviously, since they're formerly military vehicles) doesn't make them something sinister...it's not like they come with belt-fed .50 cals and RPG's. Many, many departments of all sizes have had armored and up-armored vehicles stored away for use in critical incidents...and departments with a need but not the budget for such vehicles are now filling that gap with free stuff from the Feds.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 05, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

Unlikely, as these four towns are spread out across middle Tennessee.  Hendersonville is almost in Kentucky and Lewisburg is far to the south of Nashville, going towards Alabama.  Gallatin is northeast of Nashville and Murfreesboro is southeast.  They are just too far apart to make sharing anything practical, especially a giant lumbering military truck.  It sounds to me like they are each getting their own Rambo Wagon.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 06, 2013, 06:44:53 AM
And? It's an armored vehicle. Police departments once used (and still use) old Brinks-type trucks for the same purposes. That these are made to military specs (obviously, since they're formerly military vehicles) doesn't make them something sinister...it's not like they come with belt-fed .50 cals and RPG's. Many, many departments of all sizes have had armored and up-armored vehicles stored away for use in critical incidents...and departments with a need but not the budget for such vehicles are now filling that gap with free stuff from the Feds.

Couldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

Quote from: NomisR on September 06, 2013, 10:46:31 AM
Couldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

The M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 06, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
The M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

Uh..... Obama?

Quote from: NomisR on September 06, 2013, 10:46:31 AMCouldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

The M-16's in storage are actually offered to departments through a similar program. Like I mentioned above, most departments have them converted to semiauto and have modern furniture put on them so they fit our needs. Obviously, the rest of the stuff doesn't have a place in civilian law enforcement.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 06, 2013, 03:26:49 PMThe M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

The M-16's are either full auto or three round burst, limiting the resale value on the civilian market because of restrictions on the sales of such weapons. So far as I know, such weapons have never been part of the CMP's offerings. The M1's not being entered into the CMP arsenal is stupid.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 06, 2013, 09:25:41 PM
The M-16's are either full auto or three round burst, limiting the resale value on the civilian market because of restrictions on the sales of such weapons. So far as I know, such weapons have never been part of the CMP's offerings. The M1's not being entered into the CMP arsenal is stupid.

Such weapons have been succesfully semi-auto'd in a BATFE approved way before.

Quote from: NomisR on September 06, 2013, 03:42:08 PM
Uh..... Obama?

Yep.

And really for that matter, Bush jr. as well as Clinton.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 06, 2013, 09:29:35 PMSuch weapons have been succesfully semi-auto'd in a BATFE approved way before.

Besides the fact that we have an anti-gun President and that "assault rifles" are being demonized in the media, there's little chance that the government is going to spend money modifying those weapons so they can be distributed through the CMP when so many local and state agencies want them and the government doesn't have to modify them. Obviously, the government is going to give surplus to other government agencies in need before they essentially decommission them for civilian use.

I'd love to get my hands on a surplus M1, though, or M14...

Quote from: S204STi on September 07, 2013, 08:40:04 AMI'd love to get my hands on a surplus M1, though, or M14...

There are still field-grade Garands available through the CMP if you're a member of a qualified marksmanship program or shooting club. They're getting rarer and rarer, though. M14's actually aren't that hard to find either, though the prices seem to vary wildly.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 07, 2013, 08:06:39 AM
Besides the fact that we have an anti-gun President and that "assault rifles" are being demonized in the media, there's little chance that the government is going to spend money modifying those weapons so they can be distributed through the CMP when so many local and state agencies want them and the government doesn't have to modify them. Obviously, the government is going to give surplus to other government agencies in need before they essentially decommission them for civilian use.

Except they'd be selling them through the CMP, not just giving them away.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 07, 2013, 11:07:23 AMExcept they'd be selling them through the CMP, not just giving them away.

You ignored the political ramifications of the Federal government selling "assault rifles" to the civilian population while attempting to ban them. And, technically, the Feds aren't "giving them away" to local government. They remain the property of the Federal government and cannot be sold or destroyed.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 07, 2013, 09:30:51 PM
You ignored the political ramifications of the Federal government selling "assault rifles" to the civilian population while attempting to ban them. And, technically, the Feds aren't "giving them away" to local government. They remain the property of the Federal government and cannot be sold or destroyed.

No, I didn't. I just agreed with you on that.

I mean, depending on who's definition you want to follow, they're already doing exacly that.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 07, 2013, 09:33:11 PMNo, I didn't. I just agreed with you on that.

I mean, depending on who's definition you want to follow, they're already doing exacly that.

Quite simply, the Feds aren't going to sell surplus military equipment to the civilian population that still has use to the government (whether it be at the Federal, state, or local level). The program that distributes these to police departments is extremely popular and successful, as patrol rifles have regained a place in law enforcement but many departments are dealing with budget cuts that mean that those same rifles can't afford to be purchased.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 04, 2013, 09:40:09 PM
Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

It's been a field day here since Hurricane Sandy for all of the local departments. If your city ever finds itself in an extended state of emergency declaration, the gravy train of ex-military vehicles, equipment, etc. is enormous. They have everything from these unarmored vehicles, to HMMWVs, to 25-foot Defender class former Coast Guard boats for the local police departments' marine patrols.

I don't really have a problem with any of this except for the Coast Guard boats given to one particular town. They were never used for any emergency purpose, and it's now a gigantic, daily ticket blitz on the water every day ever since the town (which, by the way, has a population of 500 and still has its own police department) obtained them.  :devil:

Quote from: bing_oh on September 08, 2013, 06:54:26 AM
Quite simply, the Feds aren't going to sell surplus military equipment to the civilian population that still has use to the government (whether it be at the Federal, state, or local level). The program that distributes these to police departments is extremely popular and successful, as patrol rifles have regained a place in law enforcement but many departments are dealing with budget cuts that mean that those same rifles can't afford to be purchased.

They're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 08, 2013, 10:30:12 AMThey're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

Nearly everything that comes up as military surplus is first-dibs to local governments under these redistribution programs. To my knowledge, the military has never offered modern operational weapons for civilian purchase...they've been giving those to local and state agencies since at least the 1920's when PD's got Thompsons and BAR's from the military. The weapons offered under the CMP no longer have any military or government use. You can't tell me that politics alone has stopped the sale of military weapons to the civilian population for the last 100 years.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 08, 2013, 09:23:28 PM
Nearly everything that comes up as military surplus is first-dibs to local governments under these redistribution programs. To my knowledge, the military has never offered modern operational weapons for civilian purchase...they've been giving those to local and state agencies since at least the 1920's when PD's got Thompsons and BAR's from the military. The weapons offered under the CMP no longer have any military or government use. You can't tell me that politics alone has stopped the sale of military weapons to the civilian population for the last 100 years.

For the last 100 years? No, of course it hasn't. That's how all those M1903 Springfields, Krag-Jorgensons, M1 Carbines and Garands, and real M1911s got into the civilian market in the first place. Yes, some were given to the police; some were sold outright at auction.

For the last 40? Sure it has.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 08, 2013, 10:30:12 AM
They're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

Fort Monmouth, NJ used to sell a lot of their boats when they reached a certain age. My family almost bought one, once, since my dad worked there at the time.

Well, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT (http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT)

Quote from: TurboDan on September 09, 2013, 12:19:29 AM
Well, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT (http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT)

107?

Almost makes me think the guy wanted it to go down this way.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 08, 2013, 09:29:00 PMFor the last 100 years? No, of course it hasn't. That's how all those M1903 Springfields, Krag-Jorgensons, M1 Carbines and Garands, and real M1911s got into the civilian market in the first place. Yes, some were given to the police; some were sold outright at auction.

For the last 40? Sure it has.

In the end, the Feds aren't going to spend money converting something that's still useful to the government so it can be sold on the civilian market. They don't refurbish the firearms sold by the CMP...they just grade them according to condition. They also don't refurbish equipment or weapons given to local government...they're delivered as-is and it's the receiving departments' responsibility to do repairs or modifications. The Feds simply aren't going to spend cash to convert full-auto weapons to semi auto so they can be sold easily on the civilian market when there are local government agencies who are on waiting lists for them as-is.

Quote from: TurboDan on September 09, 2013, 12:19:29 AMWell, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT (http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT)

Look at the comments on NBC  News.com over this one. People bitching about how LE should have just backed off and waited him out or how it's impossible that he could have withstood the "gas" they tried to use or the flashbang after he started shooting and how it was a police execution. I don't see any other way this could have worked out. They tried everything they could have. They tried to negotiate. They tried less-than-lethal to subdue him. Hell, they continued less-than-lethal AFTER he had shot at them! I wouldn't be surprised if this was a suicide-by-cop.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 09, 2013, 08:03:50 AM
Look at the comments on NBC  News.com over this one. People bitching about how LE should have just backed off and waited him out or how it's impossible that he could have withstood the "gas" they tried to use or the flashbang after he started shooting and how it was a police execution. I don't see any other way this could have worked out. They tried everything they could have. They tried to negotiate. They tried less-than-lethal to subdue him. Hell, they continued less-than-lethal AFTER he had shot at them! I wouldn't be surprised if this was a suicide-by-cop.

Dude, they could've just waited a few more minutes and the guy would've die from old age anyways! 

I don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

Pretty much.

It's not even militarization. Just getting an already-armored vehicle instead of making their own.

Quote from: hotrodalex on September 09, 2013, 04:31:02 PM
It's not even militarization. Just getting an already-armored vehicle instead of making their own.

MRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 09, 2013, 04:49:11 PM
MRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

Quote from: NomisR on September 09, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

Yeah, there is that.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 09, 2013, 04:49:11 PMMRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

What you described (minus the mines) is essentially what LE uses armored vehicles for. They're used to get tactical teams to entry points safely when weapons fire is expected or to extract wounded under the same conditions. They're also sometimes used in breaching (either with a fixed ram or doing things like pulling security bars off of doors and windows). You don't need a bus to this kind of stuff.

Quote from: bing_oh on September 09, 2013, 09:18:37 PM
What you described (minus the mines) is essentially what LE uses armored vehicles for. They're used to get tactical teams to entry points safely when weapons fire is expected or to extract wounded under the same conditions. They're also sometimes used in breaching (either with a fixed ram or doing things like pulling security bars off of doors and windows). You don't need a bus to this kind of stuff.

The ones I've seen are designed for ingress/egress from the rear, and its high up (for mine protection) it just seems much less convenient than your typical SWAT wagon (such as the Cadillac/Gage V100s).

Quote from: NomisR on September 09, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

My last department had 2 (we only wanted one but the US govt told us to take both or take neither- we also got two Hummers we didn't want or need in the deal).  We put the 2 hummers and one of these monsters into the back of the county garage property and there they'll rot because we had no use for them.  The better of the big ones got repainted and rebuilt the A/C and is used for bringing SRT to the front door of an active shooter-barricaded gunman type situation where time is on our side.  It can also be used to either smash in or rip out fortified door systems on raids- etc.  The last reason was the LA shootout- it'll probably never happen here where officers are gunned down and lay bleeding in the streets like that but at least we have the vehicle to extricate them if it ever does happen.  There's some legitimate truth to the better to have and not need ideology.  As a guy who put these teams together and oversaw them it's vital to try to imagine every scenario that might pop up- even if it's unlikely to any degree- and try to at least have a training exercise and proper equipment to face them- after all we ARE responsible for ending these situations.

Quote from: rohan on September 09, 2013, 11:20:02 PM
My last department had 2 (we only wanted one but the US govt told us to take both or take neither- we also got two Hummers we didn't want or need in the deal).  We put the 2 hummers and one of these monsters into the back of the county garage property and there they'll rot because we had no use for them.  The better of the big ones got repainted and rebuilt the A/C and is used for bringing SRT to the front door of an active shooter-barricaded gunman type situation where time is on our side.  It can also be used to either smash in or rip out fortified door systems on raids- etc.  The last reason was the LA shootout- it'll probably never happen here where officers are gunned down and lay bleeding in the streets like that but at least we have the vehicle to extricate them if it ever does happen.  There's some legitimate truth to the better to have and not need ideology.  As a guy who put these teams together and oversaw them it's vital to try to imagine every scenario that might pop up- even if it's unlikely to any degree- and try to at least have a training exercise and proper equipment to face them- after all we ARE responsible for ending these situations.

Why don't you just auction off the unwanted ones? Mil surp Hummers fetch a fair amount of coin.

Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 09, 2013, 04:23:22 PM
I don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 09, 2013, 11:22:25 PM
Why don't you just auction off the unwanted ones? Mil surp Hummers fetch a fair amount of coin.

I'm not entirely sure- something about not being able to sell them for xxx number of years- gov't still owned them technically- something like that.  I was just last night talking with someone who said they're thinking of using the second one for a command post for the county.  LOL

Quote from: rohan on September 10, 2013, 04:59:30 AMI'm not entirely sure- something about not being able to sell them for xxx number of years- gov't still owned them technically- something like that.  I was just last night talking with someone who said they're thinking of using the second one for a command post for the county.  LOL

From what I know about the program (and I'm not the one at my department who got trained on the in's and out's of it, so I'm not that well versed), the equipment can only be transferred to another eligible organization (like another PD), never sold. There was a sheriff's office in Arizona who actually got the whole program suspended nationwide and a massive audit done on everything that's ever been given out because they were getting pallets and pallets of equipment and then turning around and auctioning it off for cash. It's a huge no-no since the stuff technically does still belong to the Feds and they have the right to come in and audit it, check it, and even take it back whenever they want.

Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 09, 2013, 04:23:22 PMI don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

From a historical standpoint, it's actually kinda funny. Local PD's have been getting "military hardware" from the federal government for decades. PD's around the country got Thompson submachine guns and BAR's from the Feds when they were still considered state-of-the-art military weapons. I heard stories when I worked at Piqua PD about how they once had several Thompsons...they were supposedly disassembled and thrown into the Miami River in the 60's. There's a PD in an adjacent county that still has an original Thompson in their armory. There's nothing particularly new about local government getting hand-me-downs from the Feds.

Quote from: rohan on September 10, 2013, 04:57:54 AM
They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

Cops tend not to be liberal weenies. So the left doesn't like them.  :devil:

Quote from: rohan on September 10, 2013, 04:57:54 AM
They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

Who doesn't want a militarized force with essentially unlimited power that is generally not held accountable for its actions running free in their home town?

What if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 16, 2013, 03:17:22 PM
What if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

Is that a general question or to me specifically?  If it's to me, I haven't said anything about MRAPs specifically. 

Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 16, 2013, 03:17:22 PM
What if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

Yeah, only thing this can do is drive through a wall/door, which they can probably do with any armored truck and a pushbar.

Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 16, 2013, 03:17:22 PMWhat if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

That's the point...free is alot cheaper than the specialized armored vehicles sold to LE for $200,000.

Do you guys practice driving through things?  Or have training for that stuff?

Quote from: NomisR on September 18, 2013, 12:07:44 PMDo you guys practice driving through things?  Or have training for that stuff?

We don't have an armored vehicle so I've never been trained in one. I'd guess that there's some training available...though they aren't exactly usually used to "drive through things."

Quote from: NomisR on September 18, 2013, 12:07:44 PM
Do you guys practice driving through things?  Or have training for that stuff?

I think you just put your seatbelt on and go for it.  Avoiding driving stuff is what takes the practice.

they just got 6 mraps in my state, all free from the Pentagon

All the regional homeland security regions in MA got one of these.  Its used by our regional SWAT team.

(http://police.billericaps.com/wp-content/gallery/nno_rando_2012/25.jpg)

Here is MA though we either shoot the gun out of their hand or aim for an arm or leg.

I'd hate to have to change a tire on one of those things. How the hell many lug nuts are on there?

On another note, we had a guy in the town next to me fire off a shot during a domestic dispute, then climb to the top of a building yesterday. SWAT teams from like 3 towns showed up, they shut down a state highway and put schools in two surrounding towns on lockdown. Dude ended up shooting himself and died today. Feel bad for the cops who had to see this guy off himself.

Quote from: Catman on October 04, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
All the regional homeland security regions in MA got one of these.  Its used by our regional SWAT team.

(http://police.billericaps.com/wp-content/gallery/nno_rando_2012/25.jpg)

Here is MA though we either shoot the gun out of their hand or aim for an arm or leg.

That thing is pretty badass.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 05, 2013, 12:07:59 AM
I'd hate to have to change a tire on one of those things. How the hell many lug nuts are on there?

On another note, we had a guy in the town next to me fire off a shot during a domestic dispute, then climb to the top of a building yesterday. SWAT teams from like 3 towns showed up, they shut down a state highway and put schools in two surrounding towns on lockdown. Dude ended up shooting himself and died today. Feel bad for the cops who had to see this guy off himself.

Good riddance to him.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 05, 2013, 12:07:59 AM
I'd hate to have to change a tire on one of those things. How the hell many lug nuts are on there?

On another note, we had a guy in the town next to me fire off a shot during a domestic dispute, then climb to the top of a building yesterday. SWAT teams from like 3 towns showed up, they shut down a state highway and put schools in two surrounding towns on lockdown. Dude ended up shooting himself and died today. Feel bad for the cops who had to see this guy off himself.

Wow, that's some effective use of resources right there.

What are these cities arming themselves so much for?

Quote from: TurboDan on October 05, 2013, 12:07:59 AM
I'd hate to have to change a tire on one of those things. How the hell many lug nuts are on there?

On another note, we had a guy in the town next to me fire off a shot during a domestic dispute, then climb to the top of a building yesterday. SWAT teams from like 3 towns showed up, they shut down a state highway and put schools in two surrounding towns on lockdown. Dude ended up shooting himself and died today. Feel bad for the cops who had to see this guy off himself.

12.

The outside ring of bolts is the beadlock for the outer tire. the inner is the mount for the ballistic tire, which is inside the road tire. Underneath all that, its your standard issue Rockwell five-ton axle.

I believe its a Ford F450 underneath.

Quote from: Catman on October 05, 2013, 01:56:28 PM
I believe its a Ford F450 underneath.

Is it? That would make the parts easier to get. I thought they were based on the M35a3 chassis.

BTW the maintenance on these things is going to be CRAZY and don't even get me started on the road damage. Sure if they stay on highways designed for 18wheelers things will be fine- but most need will be down little streets???  Those aren't built for this kind of weight....

oh well, better than chucking them into the sea. They were a quick response to a short-term need....

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 07, 2013, 03:32:29 PM
oh well, better than chucking them into the sea.

Ehh... they dumped a bunch of tanks in the ocean by where I live to form an artificial reef. The fishing there kicks ass.

Original and undergrounds pics: http://njscuba.net/reefs/misc_materials.html#APC (http://njscuba.net/reefs/misc_materials.html#APC)

Quote from: TurboDan on October 08, 2013, 12:04:10 AM
Ehh... they dumped a bunch of tanks in the ocean by where I live to form an artificial reef. The fishing there kicks ass.

Original and undergrounds pics: http://njscuba.net/reefs/misc_materials.html#APC (http://njscuba.net/reefs/misc_materials.html#APC)

what in the world...

Quote from: SVT_Power on October 08, 2013, 08:09:02 AMwhat in the world...

Only in New Jersey. I bet there are a few mobsters in dem thar tanks...

Quote from: bing_oh on October 08, 2013, 09:43:00 AM
Only in New Jersey. I bet there are a few mobsters in dem thar tanks...

Ha, ya never know. My favorite artificial reef site is in Florida, though. Off Lake Worth Inlet they dumped the entire printing press from a newspaper down there to make a drift fishing reef. I've caught a lot of fish there. It's pretty cool.

In New Jersey, they haven't used the tanks in a long time. They're mainly using concrete reef balls to build a more natural looking habitat. The reef balls are made by prisoners at the Southern State Prison.

Our region, Durham Region, got one of these babies.

(http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2013/03/11/durham_regional_police_boast_biggest_and_best_toy_of_all_an_armoured_personnel_carrier_hume/tactical_rescue_vehicle.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg)

There were a few eyebrows raised, at the time, be because no one could remember when the last IED exploded around here.

I'm sure these things will look right at home when the government finishes throwing the big switch from DEMOCRACY to FASCISM.

:rastaman:

(but not really, I am seriously concerned)

meh, I'm not too worried.

Low 0-60time, gashog, bad steering radius, most anything could outrun an MRAP. And this is one of the "SMALL" ones
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/oshkosh-m-atv-specialty-file (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/oshkosh-m-atv-specialty-file)

16inches of suspension though, ride could be fun!! 

(I've never been in any of them....!)

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 08, 2013, 04:59:04 PM
meh, I'm not too worried.

Low 0-60time, gashog, bad steering radius, most anything could outrun an MRAP. And this is one of the "SMALL" ones
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/oshkosh-m-atv-specialty-file (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/oshkosh-m-atv-specialty-file)

16inches of suspension though, ride could be fun!! 

(I've never been in any of them....!)

They can reach 60?

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 08, 2013, 02:36:18 PMOur region, Durham Region, got one of these babies.

(http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2013/03/11/durham_regional_police_boast_biggest_and_best_toy_of_all_an_armoured_personnel_carrier_hume/tactical_rescue_vehicle.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg)

There were a few eyebrows raised, at the time, be because no one could remember when the last IED exploded around here.

People really focus on the wrong stuff when departments get these Federal hand-me-downs. And, realistically, IED's are a legitimate concern for large departments with terrorism (especially domestic terrorism) targets. We covered IED's during an evidence tech class I just came back from. It's surprising how easy the materials are to obtain and how easy they are to make with normal household components. There are documented cases of domestic terrorists in the US setting up IED's to target first responders.

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 08, 2013, 02:36:18 PM
Our region, Durham Region, got one of these babies.

(http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2013/03/11/durham_regional_police_boast_biggest_and_best_toy_of_all_an_armoured_personnel_carrier_hume/tactical_rescue_vehicle.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg)

There were a few eyebrows raised, at the time, be because no one could remember when the last IED exploded around here.

Interesting, apparently London police have one as well. All them rowdy Western students  :lol:

Quote from: bing_oh on October 08, 2013, 09:17:02 PM
People really focus on the wrong stuff when departments get these Federal hand-me-downs. And, realistically, IED's are a legitimate concern for large departments with terrorism (especially domestic terrorism) targets. We covered IED's during an evidence tech class I just came back from. It's surprising how easy the materials are to obtain and how easy they are to make with normal household components. There are documented cases of domestic terrorists in the US setting up IED's to target first responders.

As much as I poke fun, I don't think an MRAP by itself is an awful thing for the police to have, especially if it's a low- or no-cost vehicle.

Quote from: Raza  on October 10, 2013, 03:08:10 PM
As much as I poke fun, I don't think an MRAP by itself is an awful thing for the police to have, especially if it's a low- or no-cost vehicle.

oh, it cost-  but they just put the half-a-million-per trucks "on the tab"

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 11, 2013, 12:00:06 PM
oh, it cost-  but they just put the half-a-million-per trucks "on the tab"

Eh, the cost isn't THAT bad for maintenance, and they get them for nothing. All in all, it's a good deal. The alternative is paying through the nose for purpose-built vehicles from the factory. And at the end of the day, A LOT of these vehicles came in handy during Hurricane Sandy.

As I was saying earlier, the departments around here got the pick of the litter after Sandy. Our local police departments at the Jersey Shore could arguably take on any number of small sovereign armies at this point. The second-smallest town in NJ is also now using a fleet of state-of-the-art 25-foot Defender Coast Guard boats to give out no-wake-zone tickets on their .5 mile-long stretch of bayfront.

Looks like there are more than a few people concerned about the rise of paramilitary style police forces in the US.

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/police-acquisition-of-army-vehicle-enrages-internet-com-1489158937/@travis (http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/police-acquisition-of-army-vehicle-enrages-internet-com-1489158937/@travis)

Maybe if Americans would stop being a bunch of self-righteous, murderous, drug-smuggling, gang member douche bags...........the police wouldn't want or need these in the first place.

Slightly off subject but our local volunteer fire department got this AWD International truck that was used on a Naval base (I think it was a dump truck at one time).  It has a tank on it now and all it needs is a pump, some lights, and a radio.  Oh yeah the truck has to be painted since it can't be green.  It's about 20 years old but only has 36k miles.  Looks pretty badass and I'll try to take a picture of it if I'm up there when it's out. 

Nevermind, this is what it looks like at the moment

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/421099_106688052796145_1898600674_n.jpg)

Quote from: Madman on September 04, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
Can anyone explain why four sleepy suburbs of Nashville (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Mufreesboro and Lewisburg) should have need of a vehicle that can withstand blasts from land mines?  Especially Lewisburg, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere?

This increased militarisation of domestic American police forces is an alarming trend.

Full article here......

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441 (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441)

So Madman, does Nashville Metro PD have one of these trucks?  The only time I see Lewisburg needing one of these trucks is if the town riots if Duck Dynasty never comes on tv again. 

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on December 27, 2013, 11:57:57 PM
So Madman, does Nashville Metro PD have one of these trucks?  The only time I see Lewisburg needing one of these trucks is if the town riots if Duck Dynasty never comes on tv again. 

I really don't know.  I've never seen any of these military type vehicles here.  The Nashville Po-Po seems to run nothing but last-generation Chevy Impalas and the occasional ancient Astro van (K-9 unit, maybe?) in their fleet.  Even their unmarked units all look like the sort of Impalas you'd rent at Enterprise for $29.95 a day.

It must really suck to be a Nashville cop!

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on December 27, 2013, 11:05:18 PM
Nevermind, this is what it looks like at the moment

(https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/421099_106688052796145_1898600674_n.jpg)

The coolest of these medium duty trucks, IMO, are the forest fire fighting rigs used by the Forest Service and BLM.

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on December 27, 2013, 11:57:57 PMSo Madman, does Nashville Metro PD have one of these trucks?  The only time I see Lewisburg needing one of these trucks is if the town riots if Duck Dynasty never comes on tv again.

Larger metropolitan departments like Nashville have the funds to purchase dedicated armored vehicles like the Bearcat for their tactical teams.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Nash_Bearcat.jpg)

I must live in the wrong neighbourhood because I've never seen anything like that trundling down my street!

Quote from: bing_oh on December 28, 2013, 09:19:19 PM
Larger metropolitan departments like Nashville have the funds to purchase dedicated armored vehicles like the Bearcat for their tactical teams.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Nash_Bearcat.jpg)

Question, is a bearcat a bear or a cat? 

Quote from: Madman on December 28, 2013, 05:45:46 PM
I really don't know.  I've never seen any of these military type vehicles here.  The Nashville Po-Po seems to run nothing but last-generation Chevy Impalas and the occasional ancient Astro van (K-9 unit, maybe?) in their fleet.  Even their unmarked units all look like the sort of Impalas you'd rent at Enterprise for $29.95 a day.

It must really suck to be a Nashville cop!

Yeah I've seen those Astros too.  If it's for K9 use that's the first van I've ever seen.  Most departments would either just use a patrol car to carry a dog or an SUV even if it's non ppv.  I don't know if that city is trying to save money or not but their fleet is kinda sad.  I haven't seen a marked earlier gen Impala (pre 2006 I believe) in a while outside of Nashville.  Memphis used to use the Impala but I think they are all Charger now. 

This is our regional SWAT truck

(http://police.billericaps.com/wp-content/gallery/nno_2013/040.jpg)

I do think a lot of this is overblown but its the American way to be wary of government power.  But, there's a lot of police departments that seem to be tone deaf to this and regularly show boat their tactical capabilities and equipment.  There's a time and a place for it but I think its best kept low key most of the time.

Not enough lug nuts.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 29, 2013, 01:56:43 PM
Not enough lug nuts.

I only think one of those rings is the lug nuts, the rest are for the inner and outer tire beadlocks.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 29, 2013, 03:42:26 PM
I only think one of those rings is the lug nuts, the rest are for the inner and outer tire beadlocks.

How many bead locks could a tire possibly need?

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 29, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
How many bead locks could a tire possibly need?

If its anything like the earlier bulletproof tires, there's an internal tire which is beadlocked on too, and then the wheel itself is a two piece thing which comes apart so you can unbolt the beadlocks on the inside of the tire.

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on December 29, 2013, 12:30:20 AMQuestion, is a bearcat a bear or a cat?

If you ever get close enough to ask, let me know.

They're closer related to cats; look kind of like a cross between a pine martin and a raccoon.

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on December 29, 2013, 12:39:27 AM
Yeah I've seen those Astros too.  If it's for K9 use that's the first van I've ever seen.  Most departments would either just use a patrol car to carry a dog or an SUV even if it's non ppv.  I don't know if that city is trying to save money or not but their fleet is kinda sad.  I haven't seen a marked earlier gen Impala (pre 2006 I believe) in a while outside of Nashville.  Memphis used to use the Impala but I think they are all Charger now. 

I just snapped these pics earlier today.

Here's one of the mysterious Astro vans which I have no idea what they use for.

(http://i.imgur.com/1F1FWAn.jpg)


And a couple of examples of Nashville's all-Impala fleet.

(http://i.imgur.com/Nxh3GZH.jpg)
.
(http://i.imgur.com/xWuMUN5.jpg)

Yeah I don't think it's for K9 use or else it should be marked somewhere.  I wonder what kind of cars they will buy now?  I know the Caprice cost a bit more.  The next closest cars to cost would likely be the non ecoboost Taurus and the V6 Charger.  I believe all of the Chargers in Memphis are V6. 

Quote from: Madman on December 31, 2013, 02:43:34 PMI just snapped these pics earlier today.

Here's one of the mysterious Astro vans which I have no idea what they use for.

(http://i.imgur.com/1F1FWAn.jpg)

Crime scene/evidence tech? Heck, maybe they're just punishment for the guys on somebody's shitlist...:huh:

Quote from: TurboDan on October 19, 2013, 01:15:44 AM
Eh, the cost isn't THAT bad for maintenance, and they get them for nothing. All in all, it's a good deal.

well, the police get them for nothing but the US taxpayer is paying bazillions in interest payments for them...

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on January 01, 2014, 01:43:26 PMwell, the police get them for nothing but the US taxpayer is paying bazillions in interest payments for them...

So it's better that they sit on a military base and slowly rot away, unused, until they're sold for scrap in 20 years? I mean, at least the citizens are getting some use out of them for their money.

Maybe we could do some mods to some of these trucks and enter them in the Dakar Rally. 

Quote from: bing_oh on January 01, 2014, 07:41:38 AM
Heck, maybe they're just punishment for the guys on somebody's shitlist...:huh:

As if being made to drive an Impala isn't bad enough!  :facepalm:

Quote from: bing_oh on January 01, 2014, 07:41:38 AM
Crime scene/evidence tech? Heck, maybe they're just punishment for the guys on somebody's shitlist...:huh:

That or transporting inmates...?

Quote from: giant_mtb on January 01, 2014, 10:48:32 PMThat or transporting inmates...?

Most places use full-size vans (like Econolines) for inmate transport. I wouldn't think that an Astrovan would be able to hold many more prisoners than a cruiser...at least not enough more to justify the special vehicle. Of course, they have Impalas so it's obvious Nashville's particularly cheap when it comes to vehicles. Maybe some pencil pusher found a deal on unsold Astrovans on a local used car lot... :huh:

Those Impalas are the only police cars on the road that's worse than the Crown Vic.  I know GM is still making this car a little bit longer for fleet use but are they still offering the police package? 

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on January 02, 2014, 12:15:06 AMThose Impalas are the only police cars on the road that's worse than the Crown Vic.  I know GM is still making this car a little bit longer for fleet use but are they still offering the police package?

I honestly have no idea if the police package Impala is still around. I havn't heard anyone even mumble about them in years (and those mumbles were generally four-letter words). I'd suspect that Chevy has probably funneled everything into the new Caprice, but I may be wrong. They were shit, though.

I would not, however, say that they are the only cruiser out there worse than the Crown Vic...I believe that the new Taurus is much worse than the Crown Vic. It's faster and better handling, but it's SMALL inside. You need to be an officer of minimal stature and girth (something I ain't) to even fit into one, let alone be comfortable. Bad design choices by Ford on that one, IMHO.

Quote from: bing_oh on January 01, 2014, 02:25:39 PM
So it's better that they sit on a military base and slowly rot away, unused, until they're sold for scrap in 20 years? I mean, at least the citizens are getting some use out of them for their money.

agree

Quote from: bing_oh on January 02, 2014, 07:23:31 AM
I honestly have no idea if the police package Impala is still around. I havn't heard anyone even mumble about them in years (and those mumbles were generally four-letter words). I'd suspect that Chevy has probably funneled everything into the new Caprice, but I may be wrong. They were shit, though.

I would not, however, say that they are the only cruiser out there worse than the Crown Vic...I believe that the new Taurus is much worse than the Crown Vic. It's faster and better handling, but it's SMALL inside. You need to be an officer of minimal stature and girth (something I ain't) to even fit into one, let alone be comfortable. Bad design choices by Ford on that one, IMHO.

The Sheriff's department my dad works for has a Taurus.  It's driven by an older guy on the larger side and he said he liked the car except for the fact that it is harder to get in and out of.  But still it could be worse I guess.  Some tiny ass town near me is still using an Intrepid.  Also saw an S10 Blazer being used.   

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on January 02, 2014, 11:41:57 AMThe Sheriff's department my dad works for has a Taurus.  It's driven by an older guy on the larger side and he said he liked the car except for the fact that it is harder to get in and out of.  But still it could be worse I guess.  Some tiny ass town near me is still using an Intrepid.  Also saw an S10 Blazer being used.

We have one Taurus, currently driven by one of the smallest guys on the department. Every time I've had to drive it, I've felt like a contortionist trying to get in and out. I can't imagine trying to do so in an emergency. And, quite frankly, while I'm above-average in size I'm not Hounddog's size either...a police car should be able to accommodate an officer 6'-6'01, 230 lbs.

Most newer cars around here seem to be Chargers.  The Tahoe seems to be popular as well. 

Seems like the most important thing would be for the steering wheel to telescope. Wouldn't want you guys' stomachs getting wedged against the horn button!

Looks like now a police department can get one of these trucks for the low low price of free

(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/19dg5ozotbgovjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg)

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/pentagon-throwing-free-army-truck-giveaway-1507407457?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow (http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/pentagon-throwing-free-army-truck-giveaway-1507407457?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

Quote from: Rupert on January 03, 2014, 02:27:11 AM
Seems like the most important thing would be for the steering wheel to telescope. Wouldn't want you guys' stomachs getting wedged against the horn button!

That's one of the biggest issues with the Explorer.  No telescoping column!  That and they have constant issues.  After the continuing issues with the Explorers and the disgusting lack of reliability with our Ford ambulances (6.0 Diesel) we are thinking about dropping Ford completely.  So far, other than some dirty fuel, we've had zero issues with our Caprices and our new Chevy Ambulance has been awesome. 

I agree with Madman.  This is a very dangerous trend and doesn't pass the sniff test.  I can almost see giving away military surplus, but buying a brand new $300,000 rolling fortress for Keene NH through a Homeland (In)Security grant?  There is no legitimate police operation that needs that kind of vehicle. Sorry guys.  You cops might be too close to see the forest for the trees, but take and objective step back and re-look at things.  Any time the government starts to accumulate too much power, or any time they feel the need to greatly overstep their mission, it's time to question motives.  Eerily similar to what drove my grandparents to leave Germany prior to Adolf's big bash.  My "WTF?" meter is pegged.

MSNBC Article Excerpt:
The city of Keene, N.H., population 23,000, nestled in a valley in the state's southwest corner, may not be the first place that comes to mind as a terrorism target, but this summer it will take delivery on a $286,000 armored vehicle, compliments of the Department of Homeland Security.
The Lenco "BearCat," fitted with thermal imaging, radiation and explosive gas detection systems, gun mounts and rotating hatch is but one example of the kind of quasi-military equipment that has been acquired by local and state law enforcement agencies through billions of dollars worth of federal grant money in the last decade.

(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/120314-apc-hmed-230p.photoblog600.jpg)

It may have no legitimate purpose and be a total waste of money, but it is sure one hell of a kick ass looking truck.

Lenco; don't they also make drag race transmissions?

Quote from: saxonyron on January 24, 2014, 11:09:19 PM
  There is no legitimate police operation that needs that kind of vehicle. Sorry guys.  You cops might be too close to see the forest for the trees, but take and objective step back and re-look at things.

Really, NO legitimate police operation? 

None? 

Not one single incident in which you might want to carry an armed fire-team into a situation where they can get close and end a threat, like a mass shooting? 

Not one comes to mind?

Really?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/mass-shootings-us_n_3935978.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/mass-shootings-us_n_3935978.html)
http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2013massshootings (http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2013massshootings)


MASS SHOOTING Tracker

2013

Number 1: 1/1/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Hawthorne, CA
Number 2: 1/1/13, Desmen Noble, Damian Bell, 1 dead 4 injured, Lorain, OH
Number 3: 1/1/13, Julian Sims, 4 injured, McKeesport, PA
Number 4: 1/1/13, Carlito Montoya, 4 dead, Sacramento, CA
Number 5: 1/5/13, Sonny Archuleta, 4 dead, Aurora, CO
Number 6: 1/7/13, Cedric and James Poore (brothers), 5 dead, Tulsa, OK
Number 7: 1/7/13, Sandra Palmer, 2 dead 2 injured, Greensboro, NC
Number 8: 1/7/13, Herbert Bland Jr., 23, 3 dead 1 injured, Dinwiddie, VA
Number 9: 1/10/13, Donald Johnson, 3 dead 2 injured, New Orleans, LA
Number 10: 1/12/13, Tresvon Spencer, 1 dead 4 injured, Tuscaloosa, AL
Number 11: 1/19/13, Nehemiah Griego, 5 dead, Albuquerque, NM
Number 12: 1/21/13, Unknown, 5 injured, New Orleans, LA
Number 13: 1/21/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Brentwood, CA
Number 14: 1/25/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 15: 1/26/13, Julian Johnson, 1 dead 3 injured, Springfield, OH
Number 16: 1/26/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Washington DC
Number 17: 1/27/13, Wilbert Thibodeaux, 2 dead 2 injured, Charenton, LA
Number 18: 1/30/13, Arthur Douglas Harmon, 3 dead 1 injured, Phoenix, AZ
Number 19: 2/1/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 20: 2/2/13, Sundra Payne, 5 injured, Memphis, TN
Number 21: 2/3/13, Jackie Spears; Kelcie Stewart, 2 dead 2 injured, Memphis, TN
Number 22: 2/3/13, Christopher Dorner, 5 dead 4 injured, Began in Riverside, CA
Number 23: 2/3/13, Kong Meng Vue, Ryan Cha, Ken Cha, 1 dead 3 injured, Olivehurst, CA
Number 24: 2/6/13, Mayra Perez, 3 dead 1 injured, Denver, CO
Number 25: 2/7/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 26: 2/9/13, Malcolm Hall, Brandon Brown, Deron Bridgewater, 4 injured, New Orleans, LA
Number 27: 2/11/13, Nhan Lap Tran, 1 dead 4 injured, Oakdale, MN
Number 28: 2/11/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Vallejo, CA
Number 29: 2/11/13, Thomas Matusiewicz, 3 dead 2 injured, Wilmington, DE
Number 30: 2/12/13, Two suspects, David Fresques in custody and Davis Fotu at large, 3 dead 1 injured, Suburban Salt Lake City(Midvale), UT
Number 31: 2/13/13, Joseph Matteson, 2 dead 2 injured, Red Springs, NC
Number 32: 2/16/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Winston-Salem, NC
Number 33: 2/19/13, Ali Sayed, 4 dead 3 injured, Tustin, CA
Number 34: 2/21/13, Carlos Zuniga, 2 dead 2 injured, Miami, FL
Number 35: 2/21/13, Mark Hopkins, 1 dead 3 injured, Tulsa, OK
Number 36: 2/22/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Grand Rapids, MI
Number 37: 2/23/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 38: 2/23/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Lancaster, CA
Number 39: 2/24/13, Unknown, 8 injured, Macon, GA
Number 40: 3/2/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Shreveport, LA
Number 41: 3/3/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Moultrie, GA
Number 42: 3/3/13, Unknown, 6 injured, Houston, TX
Number 43: 3/4/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Saginaw, MI
Number 44: 3/4/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Los Banos, CA
Number 45: 3/5/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Indianapolis, IN
Number 46: 3/5/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Fuquay-Varina, NC
Number 47: 3/7/13, Joshua Hurst, 2 dead 2 injured, Jackson, MS
Number 48: 3/8/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Buffalo, NY
Number 49: 3/11/13, Taleb Hussein Yousef Salameh, 1 dead 3 injured, North Liberty, IA
Number 50: 3/11/13, Andrew Davon Allen and Craig Willson, 13 injured, Washington, DC
Number 51: 3/13/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Oceanside, CA
Number 52: 3/13/13, Kurt Myers, 5 dead 2 injured, Herkimer, NY
Number 53: 3/14/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Modesto, CA
Number 54: 3/14/13, Angelica Vazquez, 4 dead, Mesquite, TX
Number 55: 3/16/13, Unknown, 7 injured, Galt, CA
Number 56: 3/17/13, Unknown, 2 dead 4 injured, Stockton, CA
Number 57: 3/17/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Belle Glade, FL
Number 58: 3/20/13, Brandon Menefee, 3 dead 1 injured, Jefferson County, AL
Number 59: 3/21/13, Unknown, 7 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 60: 3/21/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Kansas City, MO
Number 61: 3/22/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, New York, NY
Number 62: 3/23/13, Joseph Brown, 1 dead 3 injured, Brooklyn, NY
Number 63: 3/26/13, Unknown, 4 injured, St. Petersberg, FL
Number 64: 3/31/13, Unknown, 3 dead 1 injured, Auburn, WA
Number 65: 3/31/13, Unknown, 2 dead 3 injured, Merced County, CA
Number 66: 4/2/13, Unknown, 4 dead 1 injured, San Juan, Puerto Rico
Number 67: 4/6/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Greenwood, SC
Number 68: 4/6/13, Unknown spree shooter, 4 injured, Philadelphia, PA
Number 69: 4/7/13, Matthew Wilson, 1 dead 3 injured, Manhatten, Kansas
Number 70: 4/7/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Long Beach, CA
Number 71: 4/9/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Philadelphia, PA
Number 72: 4/10/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Vallejo, CA
Number 73: 4/13/13, Trenton Ore, Joven Covington, 5 injured, Norfolk, VA
Number 74: 4/13/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Merced, CA
Number 75: 4/14/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Lexington, KY
Number 76: 4/14/13, Unknown, 2 dead 4 injured, Phoenix, AZ
Number 77: 4/18/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Akron, OH
Number 78: 4/18/13, Kenneth Phillip, 2 dead 2 injured, Northhampton, PA
Number 79: 4/18/13, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 2 dead 2 injured, Boston, MA
Number 80: 4/20/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Modesto, CA
Number 81: 4/20/13, Christine Squire, 2 dead 2 injured, Richmond, VA
Number 82: 4/22/13, Dennis Clark III, 5 dead 2 injured, Federal Way, WA
Number 83: 4/22/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Englewood, Illinois
Number 84: 4/22/13, Davante Robertson, Charlie A. Gumms, Frankie Hookman, Jr and Lashawn Davis, 5 injured, Havey, Louisiana
Number 85: 4/24/13, Rick Odell Smith, 6 dead 1 injured, Manchester, IL
Number 86: 4/25/13, Sean M. Woodings, 4 injured, Oberlin, Ohio
Number 87: 4/27/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Williston, FL
Number 88: 4/28/13, Neville Lynch, Mark Rose, 4 injured, Lauderdale Lakes, FL
Number 89: 4/28/13, Kyle T. Flack, 4 dead, Ottawa, KA
Number 90: 4/28/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Charlotte, NC
Number 91: 4/28/13, Unknown drive-by, 1 dead 3 injured, Chester, PA
Number 92: 4/28/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Jackson, Tennessee
Number 93: 5/2/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Newark, NJ
Number 94: 5/4/13, Krystal Olymica David, 4 injured, Smithfield, NC
Number 95: 5/4/13, Unknown drive-by, 4 dead 6 injured, Aguas Buenas, PR
Number 96: 5/5/13, Unknown drive-by, 6 injured, E. Palo Alto, CA
Number 97: 5/5/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 98: 5/6/13, Two boys, 10, 11, 4 injured, Ocean Township, NJ
Number 99: 5/6/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Johnstown, PA
Number 100: 5/8/13, Ralph Robert Warren III, 4 dead, Hendersonville, NC
Number 101: 5/10/13, Unknown, 3 dead 1 injured, Harbor Gateway (Los Angeles), CA
Number 102: 5/11/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Jersey City, NJ
Number 103: 5/11/13, Unknown, 4 injured, East Germantown, PA
Number 104: 5/11/13, Samuel E. Sallee, 4 dead, Waynesville, IN
Number 105: 5/12/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Hollister, CA
Number 106: 5/12/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Apache Junction, AZ
Number 107: 5/12/13, Unknown, 19 injured, New Orleans, LA
Number 108: 5/12/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Newark, NJ
Number 109: 5/13/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Winton Hills, OH
Number 110: 5/15/13, Jeremiah Bean, 5 dead, Fernley, NV
Number 111: 5/15/13, Arrest made 5/21, 1 dead 4 injured, Detroit, MI
Number 112: 5/16/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Philladelphia, PA
Number 113: 5/18/13, Unknown, 3 dead 3 injured, Las Piedras, PR
Number 114: 5/19/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, South Memphis, TN
Number 115: 5/19/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Detroit, MI
Number 116: 5/19/13, Codarrell Lee Yates, 4 injured, Lunenburg, VA
Number 117: 5/20/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 118: 5/21/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Madison County, AL
Number 119: 5/21/13, Albert Peterson, 4 dead, Herndon, VA
Number 120: 5/23/13, Jason Brian Holt, 2 dead 2 injured, Knoxville, TN
Number 121: 5/23/13, Evellis T. McGee and Karon D. Thomas, 1 dead 3 injured, Saginaw, MI
Number 122: 5/24/13, Julio Jesus Romero, 2 dead 2 injured, Bakersfield, CA
Number 123: 5/25/13, Antonio King Green, 1 dead 3 injured, Flint, MI
Number 124: 5/25/13, Ryan Taybron, 15, and Eric Nixon, 17, 1 dead 4 injured, Hampton, VA
Number 125: 5/26/13, Esteban J. Smith, 3 dead 5 injured, Eden, TX & Jacksonville, NC
Number 126: 5/28/13, Unknown, 5 dead, Sells, AZ
Number 127: 5/28/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Memphis, TN
Number 128: 5/29/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Chicago (Bronzeville), IL
Number 129: 5/31/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Atlanta, GA
Number 130: 6/1/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Vallejo, CA
Number 131: 6/1/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Milwaukee, WI
Number 132: 6/2/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Indianapolis, IN
Number 133: 6/2/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Virginia Beach, VA
Number 134: 6/2/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Roanoke, VA
Number 135: 6/2/13, Xavier Edmondson and Lewis Antonio, 7 injured, LaGrange, GA
Number 136: 6/3/13, Manuel Mata III, 2 dead 2 injured, Las Vegas, NV
Number 137: 6/4/13, Johnny Simpson, 2 dead 2 injured, Shoreview, MN
Number 138: 6/5/13, St. Charles resident, 10 injured, Elburn, IL
Number 139: 6/7/13, John Zawahri, 5 dead 5 injured, Santa Monica, CA
Number 140: 6/9/13, Unknown, 4 injured, York City, PA
Number 141: 6/10/13, Davonta Coleman, 6 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 142: 6/10/13, Unknown, 1 dead 5 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 143: 6/11/13, David Andrus, 4 dead, Darien, IL
Number 144: 6/12/13, Ahmed Dirir, 4 dead, St. Louis, MO
Number 145: 6/14/13, Unknown, 4 injured, High Point, NC
Number 146: 6/15/13, Earnest Woodley, 4 injured, Nashville, TN
Number 147: 6/15/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Houston, TX
Number 148: 6/16/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 149: 6/18/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Berkeley, MO
Number 150: 6/19/13, Gary W. Stewart Jr., 3 dead 1 injured, Louisville, KY
Number 151: 6/21/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, (Kelvyn Park) Chicago, IL
Number 152: 6/21/13, Darren Lamont Roberts and Kyle Edward Thornton, 6 injured, Norfolk, VA
Number 153: 6/21/13, Lakim Anthony Faust, 5 injured, Greenville, NC
Number 154: 6/22/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Baltimore, MD
Number 155: 6/22/13, Kamal "Rico" Edge, 1 dead 4 injured, Paterson, NJ
Number 156: 6/22/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Providence, RI
Number 157: 6/23/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Chattanooga, TN
Number 158: 6/23/13, Elijah Rodgers, 1 dead 3 injured, Sacramento, CA
Number 159: 6/23/13, Unknown, 1 dead 8 injured, Kansas City, MO
Number 160: 6/23/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Gentilly, LA
Number 161: 6/23/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Virginia Beach, VA
Number 162: 6/24/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Kansas City, MO
Number 163: 6/25/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 164: 6/27/13, Tierra Fallin, 1 dead 3 injured, Baltimore, MD
Number 165: 6/27/13, Manuel Talamantez, Christina Martinez, 2 dead 2 injured, Three Rivers, CA
Number 166: 6/28/13, Unknown, 6 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 167: 6/29/13, Ronald Reid, Barry Stinson, 3 dead 1 injured, North Charleston, SC
Number 168: 6/30/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Aurora, CO
Number 169: 6/30/13, Unknown, 9 injured, Brooklyn, NY
Number 170: 7/1/13, Amos Wells, 4 dead, Fort Worth, TX
Number 171: 7/2/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Montgomery, AL
Number 172: 7/3/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Calais, Maine
Number 173: 7/4/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Woodlawn, IL
Number 174: 7/4/13, Robert Marion Naylor, 1 dead 6 injured, Pontiac, MI
Number 175: 7/5/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Macon, GA
Number 176: 7/6/13, Chauncy Laray Mitchell, 4 injured, Florence, AL
Number 177: 7/6/13, Unknown, 1 dead 7 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 178: 7/6/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Los Angeles, CA
Number 179: 7/6/13, Brandon Reese, 1 dead 3 injured, Brooklyn, NY
Number 180: 7/7/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Meridian, Miss.
Number 181: 7/7/13, Unknown, 1 dead 5 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 182: 7/7/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Pompano Beach, FL
Number 183: 7/7/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Stockton, CA
Number 184: 7/9/13, Lamont Jones, 4 injured, Balimore, MD
Number 185: 7/9/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Rockford, IL
Number 186: 7/10/13, Konrad Schafer, 15, and David Damus, 20, 2 dead 12 injured, Kissimmee, FL
Number 187: 7/11/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Charlotte, NC
Number 188: 7/12/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Hamilton Township, NJ
Number 189: 7/12/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, San Francicsco, CA
Number 190: 7/12/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Greensburg, KY
Number 191: 7/13/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Oklahoma City, OK
Number 192: 7/13/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Washington DC
Number 193: 7/14/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Wichita, KS
Number 194: 7/14/13, Billie McKinney, 5 injured, Kentwood, MI
Number 195: 7/14/13, Phillip Brierly Jr., 2 dead 2 injured, Lexington, SC
Number 196: 7/17/13, Darnell Williams, Joe Carroll, 3 dead 1 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 197: 7/19/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Madera, CA
Number 198: 7/19/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Hartford, CT
Number 199: 7/20/13, Devin Spann, 5 injured, Campbell, OH
Number 200: 7/21/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Brooklyn (Bushwick), NY
Number 201: 7/21/13, Terrence Lynom, Angelo Clark, 1 dead 3 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 202: 7/21/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Fort Pierce, FL
Number 203: 7/21/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Brooklyn (Crown Heights), NY
Number 204: 7/24/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Topeka, KS
Number 205: 7/25/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Inkster, MI
Number 206: 7/26/13, Sidney A. Muller, 4 dead, Clarksburg, WV
Number 207: 7/26/13, Pedro Alberto Vargas, 7 dead, Hialea, FL
Number 208: 7/27/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Farmington, NM
Number 209: 7/28/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Granger, WA
Number 210: 7/28/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Irvington, NJ
Number 211: 7/28/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Dallas, TX
Number 212: 7/30/13, Parrish Chee, 4 injured, Lea County (Hobbs), NM
Number 213: 8/2/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Whitesburg, KY
Number 214: 8/2/13, Unknown, 2 dead 3 injured, Newark, NJ
Number 215: 8/2/13, Tristan Crayton, 4 injured, Broad Ripple, IN
Number 216: 8/3/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Detriot, MI
Number 217: 8/4/13, Giovanni Pacheco, 3 dead 4 injured, Salinas, CA
Number 218: 8/4/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Kansas City, Mo
Number 219: 8/5/13, Rockne Newell, 3 dead 4 injured, Ross Township, PA
Number 220: 8/5/13, Suspect known., 4 injured, Montclair, NJ
Number 221: 8/7/13, Erbie Bowser, 4 dead 4 injured, Dallas, TX
Number 222: 8/11/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Flatbush, NY
Number 223: 8/11/13, Nikko Jenkins, 4 dead, Omaha, NE
Number 224: 8/11/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Wilmington, Del.
Number 225: 8/11/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 226: 8/11/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Portsmouth, VA
Number 227: 8/12/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Cincinnati, OH
Number 228: 8/16/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Kingsessing, PA
Number 229: 8/17/13, Demetrius Ward, 4 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 230: 8/18/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 231: 8/18/13, Darryl Sain, 4 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 232: 8/18/13, Dontrel Shyhee Blakeney, 17, 1 dead 4 injured, Chesterfield County, SC
Number 233: 8/18/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Rochester, NY
Number 234: 8/18/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Toledo, OH
Number 235: 8/18/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Port Norris, NJ
Number 236: 8/19/13, Kelsky Patterson, 1 dead 4 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 237: 8/20/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Vanceboro, NC
Number 238: 8/20/13, Melville Mason, 2 dead 2 injured, Baltimore, MD
Number 239: 8/20/13, Daniel Livingston Green, 4 dead, Oklahoma City, OK
Number 240: 8/22/13, Jim Edwards, 2 dead 2 injured, Shaler, PA
Number 241: 8/23/13, Unknown, 1 dead 6 injured, Baltimore, MD
Number 242: 8/24/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Indianapolis, IN
Number 243: 8/25/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Dillon County, SC
Number 244: 8/25/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Minneapolis, MN
Number 245: 8/25/13, Hubert Allen, Jr., 3 dead 2 injured, Lake Butler, FL
Number 246: 8/25/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 247: 8/28/13, Devonere Simmonds, 3 dead 2 injured, Columbus, OH
Number 248: 9/5/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Charlotte, NC
Number 249: 9/7/13, Unknown, 2 dead 4 injured, Gary, IN
Number 250: 9/7/13, Darnell Hollings, 1 dead 3 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 251: 9/10/13, Roderick Rodgers, David Anderson, 1 dead 4 injured, Bridgeport, CT
Number 252: 9/11/13, Jacob Bennett, Brittany Moser, 4 dead, Renegade Mountain, TN
Number 253: 9/11/13, Unknown, 4 injured, New York, NY
Number 254: 9/11/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Washington DC
Number 255: 9/13/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Centreville, IL
Number 256: 9/14/13, Earl Spencer Boyce, 4 injured, Marion, NC
Number 257: 9/15/13, Robert E. Bell, 3 dead 1 injured, Snellville, GA
Number 258: 9/15/13, Unknown, 6 injured, Yakima, WA
Number 259: 9/15/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Bakersfield, CA
Number 260: 9/15/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Wilmington, DE
Number 261: 9/15/13, Unknown, 7 injured, Fresno, CA
Number 262: 9/15/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Colorado Springs, CO
Number 263: 9/16/13, Aaron Alexis, 13 dead 8 injured, Washington DC
Number 264: 9/17/13, Unknown, 4 dead, West Broward, FL
Number 265: 9/17/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Stockton, CA
Number 266: 9/17/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Lansing, MI
Number 267: 9/17/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Las Vegas, NV
Number 268: 9/18/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Kissimmee, FL
Number 269: 9/18/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Bakersfield, CA
Number 270: 9/18/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Whitehaven, TN
Number 271: 9/19/13, Tabari Young, Bryon Champ, 13 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 272: 9/20/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Long Beach, CA
Number 273: 9/20/13, Guadalupe Ronquillo-Ovalle, 5 dead, Rice, TX
Number 274: 9/21/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Palm Springs, FL
Number 275: 9/22/13, Unknown, 1 dead 6 injured, Witchita, KA
Number 276: 9/22/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, St. Louis, MO
Number 277: 9/22/13, Antonio Keshawn Raglin, 3 dead 1 injured, Muskegon, MI
Number 278: 9/24/13, Antonio Michael Smith, 6 injured, Huntington, WV
Number 279: 9/25/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Haw River, NC
Number 280: 9/26/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Jacksonville, FL
Number 281: 9/27/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Ashville, PA
Number 282: 9/29/13, Unknown, 4 injured, ZanesVille, OH
Number 283: 9/29/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Chicago, IL
Number 284: 10/2/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Omaha, NE
Number 285: 10/2/13, Andy Keith Hunt, 4 dead, Double Springs, AL
Number 286: 10/5/13, Unknown, 1 dead 13 injured, Fresno, CA
Number 287: 10/6/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Buffalo, NY
Number 288: 10/6/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Avondale, AZ
Number 289: 10/6/13, Unknown, 1 dead 5 injured, Phillidelphia, PA
Number 290: 10/8/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Paris, TX
Number 291: 10/12/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Tulsa, OK
Number 292: 10/12/13, Boonmlee Lee, Meng Lee, 5 injured, Tulsa, OK
Number 293: 10/13/13, Unknown, 8 injured, Harrisburg, PA
Number 294: 10/18/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Margate, FL
Number 295: 10/20/13, Benjamin Frazier, 1 dead 4 injured, Las Vegas, NV
Number 296: 10/20/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Miami-Dade, FL
Number 297: 10/20/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Reno, NV
Number 298: 10/20/13, Unknown, 2 dead 4 injured, Pittsburgh, PA
Number 299: 10/26/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Miami Gardens, FL
Number 300: 10/26/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Ridgecrest, CA
Number 301: 10/26/13, Michael Guzzo, 5 dead, Phonix, AZ
Number 302: 10/26/13, Unknown, 1 dead 5 injured, New Haven, CT
Number 303: 10/27/13, Michael Guzzo, 5 dead, Phoenix, AZ
Number 304: 10/27/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Southern Pines, NC
Number 305: 10/27/13, Unknown, 1 dead 6 injured, Sacramento, CA
Number 306: 10/27/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Beaumont, TX
Number 307: 10/27/13, Unknown, 1 dead 7 injured, Vallejo, CA
Number 308: 10/27/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Albuquerque, NM
Number 309: 10/27/13, Samuel Nathan Duran, 6 injured, Roseville, CA
Number 310: 10/28/13, Charles Everett Brownlow Jr., 5 dead, Terrell, TX
Number 311: 10/29/13, Bryan Sweatt, 6 dead, Callison, SC
Number 312: 10/31/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Fayetteville, NC
Number 313: 11/2/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Radcliff, KY
Number 314: 11/3/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Los Angeles, CA
Number 315: 11/4/13, Jose Luis Avalos, 5 injured, Perris, CA
Number 316: 11/5/13, Victor Leon Coley, 4 injured, Washington D.C.
Number 317: 11/5/13, Unknown, 3 dead 7 injured, Detroit, MI
Number 318: 11/5/13, Jerry Vue, 1 dead 3 injured, Fresno, CA
Number 319: 11/7/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Jacksonville, FL
Number 320: 11/9/13, Willie Young, Randy Stewart, 2 dead 16 injured, Cyprus, TX
Number 321: 11/9/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Phoenix, AZ
Number 322: 11/10/13, Ali Akbar Mohammadi Rafie, 4 dead 1 injured, Brooklyn, NY
Number 323: 11/10/13, Dwight Ellis, 1 dead 3 injured, Canton, OH
Number 324: 11/12/13, Michael Sanders, 4 dead, Phoenix, AZ
Number 325: 11/17/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Houston, TX
Number 326: 11/20/13, Johnathan Sanchez, 3 dead 2 injured, Houston, TX
Number 327: 11/20/13, Roberto Garcia Sousa, 3 dead 1 injured, Miami-Dade, FL
Number 328: 11/21/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Philadelphia, PA
Number 329: 11/22/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Columbus, OH
Number 330: 11/23/13, Unknown, 4 dead 1 injured, Tulsa, OK
Number 331: 11/23/13, David Cornell Bennett Jr., 4 dead, Parsons, KA
Number 332: 11/24/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Minneapolis, MN
Number 333: 11/25/13, Unknown, 7 injured, Oakland, CA
Number 334: 11/28/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Rochester, NY
Number 335: 11/29/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Indianapolis, IN
Number 336: 11/29/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Fresno, CA
Number 337: 11/30/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Valdosta, GA
Number 338: 11/30/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Lansing, MI
Number 339: 12/1/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Topeka, KA
Number 340: 12/1/13, Unknown, 2 dead 2 injured, Miami, FL
Number 341: 12/2/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Gary, IN
Number 342: 12/3/13, Tim Adams, 4 dead, Alma, AL
Number 343: 12/3/13, Chad Smith and Tony Churchill, 4 injured, Louisville, KY
Number 344: 12/3/13, Herbert Clyde Hughes Jr., 4 dead, Erwin, TN
Number 345: 12/7/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Wilmington, DE
Number 346: 12/8/13, Unknown, 4 dead, Manchester, CT
Number 347: 12/9/13, Unknown, 2 dead 3 injured, Miami-Dade, FL
Number 348: 12/13/13, Antonio Devon Brown, 1 dead 3 injured, Huntington, WV
Number 349: 12/14/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Statesville, NC
Number 350: 12/15/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Channelview, TX
Number 351: 12/15/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Florida City, FL
Number 352: 12/17/13, Alan Frazier, 2 dead 2 injured, Reno, NV
Number 353: 12/21/13, Unknown, 1 dead 4 injured, Trenton, NJ
Number 354: 12/22/13, Unknown, 4 injured, Shelby, NC
Number 355: 12/22/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Fruitland Township, MI
Number 356: 12/25/13, Unknown, 1 dead 3 injured, Medford, NY
Number 357: 12/25/13, Unknown, 3 dead 2 injured, Irvington, NJ
Number 358: 12/26/13, Ben Edward Freeman, 4 dead 3 injured, Raceland, LA
Number 359: 12/26/13, Unknown, 2 dead 7 injured, Slidell, LA
Number 360: 12/29/13, Jason McWilliams, 2 dead 6 injured, Montgomary, AL
Number 361: 12/29/13, Ivan Wong, 2 dead 2 injured, Miami-Dade, FL
Number 362: 12/30/13, Abbas Lodhi, 4 dead, Pleasant Valley, NY
Number 363: 12/31/13, Unknown, 5 injured, Brooklyn, NY
Number 364: 12/31/13, Identity not yet released., 4 dead, Fontana, CA
Number 365: 12/31/13, Unknown, 2  dead 2 injured, Barberton, OH

If you think really hard now, can you come up with a scenario where one of these armored personnel carriers might come in handy? (noticed I said armored personnel carriers and not battle tank)

A $300,000 battle tank isn't necessary to neutralize one sorry excuse for a human being with a gun.

It is not a battle tank.

And, there is no reason not to use a armored personnel carrier to deliver strike teams to target if it was a gift.

:huh:

Quote from: hounddog on January 25, 2014, 05:56:20 AM
It is not a battle tank.

And, there is no reason not to use a armored personnel carrier to deliver strike teams to target if it was a gift.

:huh:

When a podunk town like Lewisburg, Tennessee or North Bumfuck New Hampshire (in other words, the sort of places that only just got electricity and indoor plumbing last week) suddenly needs a military-grade vehicle for the purposes of "Law Enforcement", something is seriously wrong.  This has Orwellian Nightmare written all over it!

Yes, Madman, a smallish police force with one unarmed armored personnel carrier will be the death knell for the USofA.

What REALLY smells of an Orwellian Nightmare is the regular and often circumvention of the US Constitution by YOUR president.

Careful with the hillbilly talk, Madman, your "tolerance and understanding" learned at your leftist meetings is showing through.  :ohyeah:

Its not a battle tank people.  They are no more than an armored SUV.  It's not much more than the cost of an ambulance. Using aluminum fire trucks to evacuate people from active shooter situations isn't smart and without an armored vehicle sometimes impossible.  The hyperbole with some of you guys is ridiculous.

Keene State has a decent size campus as well

Quote from: Catman on January 25, 2014, 07:10:30 AMIts not a battle tank people.  They are no more than an armored SUV.  It's not much more than the cost of an ambulance. Using aluminum fire trucks to evacuate people from active shooter situations isn't smart and without an armored vehicle sometimes impossible.  The hyperbole with some of you guys is ridiculous.

Not to mention that we need them to escort the convoys of detained civilians to the FEMA death camps when the New World Order goes into effect. Duh! :rolleyes:

Quote from: saxonyron on January 24, 2014, 11:09:19 PM
I agree with Madman.  This is a very dangerous trend and doesn't pass the sniff test.  I can almost see giving away military surplus, but buying a brand new $300,000 rolling fortress for Keene NH through a Homeland (In)Security grant?  There is no legitimate police operation that needs that kind of vehicle. Sorry guys.  You cops might be too close to see the forest for the trees, but take and objective step back and re-look at things.  Any time the government starts to accumulate too much power, or any time they feel the need to greatly overstep their mission, it's time to question motives.  Eerily similar to what drove my grandparents to leave Germany prior to Adolf's big bash.  My "WTF?" meter is pegged.

You're listening to too many talk shows.  Rolling fortress?  Sigh.

Considering the unwarranted use of force by police departments in this area...tasering an 80 year old woman with dementia, shooting an emotionally disturbed teen 9 times and then tasering him, various beatings, etc...it seems that the police...at least up here...would do better to spend their budget on proper training rather than on military vehicles.

I think it's all just a better argument for more civilians to own comparable ( or superior) vehicles.

Hounddog's quoting Huffington.

Now I've seen everything.

Quote from: hounddog on January 25, 2014, 06:23:26 AM
Yes, Madman, a smallish police force with one unarmed armored personnel carrier will be the death knell for the USofA.

What REALLY smells of an Orwellian Nightmare is the regular and often circumvention of the US Constitution by YOUR president.

Careful with the hillbilly talk, Madman, your "tolerance and understanding" learned at your leftist meetings is showing through.  :ohyeah:

Sounds like somebody has been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh and/or Fake News Channel again!  :loopy:

Quote from: Madman on January 25, 2014, 05:41:44 PM

Sounds like somebody has been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh and/or Fake News Channel again!  :loopy:

For someone that gives a pass to every power grab the Obama administration takes, I am surprised you have such an issue with an F450 with an armored body. It's not a "tank".

Quote from: Catman on January 25, 2014, 05:46:12 PM
For someone that gives a pass to every power grab the Obama administration takes, I am surprised you have such an issue with an F450 with an armored body. It's not a "tank".

You seem to forget good ol' Dubya was the king of power grabs.  *cough* Patriot Act *cough*

Quote from: bing_oh on January 25, 2014, 10:49:01 AM
Not to mention that we need them to escort the convoys of detained civilians to the FEMA death camps when the New World Order goes into effect. Duh! :rolleyes:

You let the cat out of the bag too early. 

Quote from: Madman on January 25, 2014, 05:57:52 PM
You seem to forget good ol' Dubya was the king of power grabs.  *cough* Patriot Act *cough*

Your boy didn't have many qualms about keepin 'em, did he?

This Bush fixation thing, man...

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 25, 2014, 06:29:11 PM
This Bush fixation thing, man...

This Obama fixation thing, man...

Quote from: Madman on January 25, 2014, 06:47:08 PM
This Obama fixation thing, man...

The dude who's in the hot seat now i salways going to be more relevant than the dude who was 6 years ago.

Quote from: Madman on January 25, 2014, 05:57:52 PMYou seem to forget good ol' Dubya was the king of power grabs.  *cough* Patriot Act *cough*

Yea, because there were no Democrats who voted for that, right? Or voted for it to be renewed when its sunset provisions came up (like Obama in 2010).

Quote from: Mustangfan2003 on January 25, 2014, 06:20:35 PMYou let the cat out of the bag too early.

:facepalm:

Nothing to see here, people. Move along.

On the subject of politics can't we all agree that both parties have done things to screw up this country? 

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 25, 2014, 12:12:51 PM
Hounddog's quoting Huffington.

Now I've seen everything.

Fine, how about I quote ABC?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspected-shooter-dead-shooting-maryland-mall/story?id=21809168 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspected-shooter-dead-shooting-maryland-mall/story?id=21809168)

Or wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings)

*of special note please see secondary explosive device*

The point was not about the article, it was about the several hundred incidents each year in America where having an armored personnel carrier would be useful. 

Quote from: hounddog on January 25, 2014, 10:14:35 PM
Fine, how about I quote ABC?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspected-shooter-dead-shooting-maryland-mall/story?id=21809168 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspected-shooter-dead-shooting-maryland-mall/story?id=21809168)

Or wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings)

*of special note please see secondary explosive device*

The point was not about the article, it was about the several hundred incidents each year in America where having an armored personnel carrier would be useful. 

You've convinced me.

I'll get one.

So a town of 23,000 people felt it was necessary to spend $300,000 (whether it be a specific grant for this purchase or not) for an APC? Regardless of whether it's a damn battle tank or a glorified armoured SUV, we're talking about a small town that's seen THREE murders since 1999 (2 in 2003, and 1 in 2011). In 2012, City of Keene's PD's report shows 6 "weapon law violations", which I'm honestly not sure what it means but I would assume that that means the city isn't exactly plagued by gun issues.

So what's the justification? Sure I get that it's a tool for police safety, it's not a battle tank, etc etc. But why spend $300,000 on it for this town? The city had a chance to receive this grant so it took it instead of losing out on a "free" $300,000?

I'm not talking about whether police should have these things or not, I can see a time and place for one. But people seriously need to open their eyes and look at the wasted money.

Quote from: SVT_Power on January 25, 2014, 11:43:12 PM
So a town of 23,000 people felt it was necessary to spend $300,000 (whether it be a specific grant for this purchase or not) for an APC? Regardless of whether it's a damn battle tank or a glorified armoured SUV, we're talking about a small town that's seen THREE murders since 1999 (2 in 2003, and 1 in 2011). In 2012, City of Keene's PD's report shows 6 "weapon law violations", which I'm honestly not sure what it means but I would assume that that means the city isn't exactly plagued by gun issues.

So what's the justification? Sure I get that it's a tool for police safety, it's not a battle tank, etc etc. But why spend $300,000 on it for this town? The city had a chance to receive this grant so it took it instead of losing out on a "free" $300,000?

I'm not talking about whether police should have these things or not, I can see a time and place for one. But people seriously need to open their eyes and look at the wasted money.

That about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

I do not believe "MRAP" is a term which applies to the Bearcat though.

My take on it is this: most of the arguments for polic having these vehicles apply to justifying Me having one as well. "Its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it," riot and disaster scenarios would, etc.   It'd be a great crime detterant too; I can't imagine that a burglar- home invasion-rapist type would look at the house with the tank parked in the driveway as an easy target, nor would your wandering crackhead looking for some pocket money.

Plus, I can get a hell of a lot more in the way of armor than that cheesy uparmored pickup truck for $300,000.

The bearcat we have is used by a regional swat team covering 52 communities. Does Keene provide regional support to neighboring communities?

Quote from: saxonyron on January 26, 2014, 01:54:45 PM
How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously. 

So, there has to be a rash of SWAT/SRT teams being flattened before being prepared is acceptable? 

LE has been aware of secondary explosive devices since they were used during WWI to ensnare Allied troops in German trenches.  Their use during the IRA attacks were stuff of legend.  Now, we have them being used in America.

How many specialized LE officers have to be killed before it is ok to use such equipment?  Need I remind YOU what SWAT stands for?

QuoteI have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

HOW? 

What makes having an unarmed armored vehicle equal to giving up liberties?  If anything, a better argument is that such a device is being used for perpetuating civil peace.  Civil Peace being the primary mission for LE.

Quote from: saxonyron on January 26, 2014, 01:54:45 PMThat about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

You should probably realize that a Bearcat is not an MRAP and an MRAP is not a Bearcat. The Bearcat is essentially an up-armored pickup truck designed for and marketed to LE. They are not necessarily IED-resistant. MRAP's were designed and sold to the military and were specifically designed to deflect blasts of anti-vehicle mines and, later, IED's in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. These are now being given to civilian PD's because there is a surplus of them coming home without a mission...they are more than armored enough to protect against the light arms that civilian LE deals with in tactical situations, so they are being shoehorned into a role for which they were not specifically designed but do work for.

Now, let's just disregard all that and address the fact that IED's are becoming more and more common in this country. If you look at many of the recent active shooters, you'll see that they frequently are being found with some kind of improvised explosives on their person. Small IED's were used during Columbine. There was a group that planned attacks on abortion clinics that had planned to use IED's planted outside to attack first responders. The knowledge to attach these to cell phones or other short-range remote detonators like we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan is out there and is easily accessible to criminals. How long do you think it's going to be before one of these active shooters with a little more planning decides to plant pipe bombs around his target and detonate them as LE responds? Realistically, IED-resistant specialized vehicles are not out of the realm of common sense in modern LE.

As for this being some kind of attack on civil liberty, I'd have to agree with Tony on this when he asks, "how this is an attack on civil liberty?" There's nothing inherently authoritarian or fascist about LE having a specialized armored vehicle. LE has had access to specialized armored vehicles for decades. The difference between now and 30 years ago is, they're not necessarily budget-restricted because we now get hand-me-downs from the feds. Back then, only the biggest departments had them...not because they were the only ones who needed them, but because they were the only ones who could afford them.

Quote from: bing_oh on January 27, 2014, 07:10:14 AM
You should probably realize that a Bearcat is not an MRAP and an MRAP is not a Bearcat. The Bearcat is essentially an up-armored pickup truck designed for and marketed to LE. They are not necessarily IED-resistant. MRAP's were designed and sold to the military and were specifically designed to deflect blasts of anti-vehicle mines and, later, IED's in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. These are now being given to civilian PD's because there is a surplus of them coming home without a mission...they are more than armored enough to protect against the light arms that civilian LE deals with in tactical situations, so they are being shoehorned into a role for which they were not specifically designed but do work for.

Now, let's just disregard all that and address the fact that IED's are becoming more and more common in this country. If you look at many of the recent active shooters, you'll see that they frequently are being found with some kind of improvised explosives on their person. Small IED's were used during Columbine. There was a group that planned attacks on abortion clinics that had planned to use IED's planted outside to attack first responders. The knowledge to attach these to cell phones or other short-range remote detonators like we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan is out there and is easily accessible to criminals. How long do you think it's going to be before one of these active shooters with a little more planning decides to plant pipe bombs around his target and detonate them as LE responds? Realistically, IED-resistant specialized vehicles are not out of the realm of common sense in modern LE.

As for this being some kind of attack on civil liberty, I'd have to agree with Tony on this when he asks, "how this is an attack on civil liberty?" There's nothing inherently authoritarian or fascist about LE having a specialized armored vehicle. LE has had access to specialized armored vehicles for decades. The difference between now and 30 years ago is, they're not necessarily budget-restricted because we now get hand-me-downs from the feds. Back then, only the biggest departments had them...not because they were the only ones who needed them, but because they were the only ones who could afford them.

There's a lot of hype out there with MRAP's.  As you said the Bearcat is an armored vehicle with an F450 chassis. 

Could always go with this setup.  Looks safe.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Be_r9YOIcAAAcDY.jpg)

Quote from: Catman on January 27, 2014, 07:52:43 AMThere's a lot of hype out there with MRAP's.  As you said the Bearcat is an armored vehicle with an F450 chassis.

It's all over-reaction and conspiracy theory bs. "The feds are giving the cops TANKS!" this and "the police are becoming an occupying army" that. Ok, if the feds were giving M1A2's to local PD's, I could see an issue...that's a tank. But, MRAP's? Comeon...there's nothing particularly scary about an armored truck. The funny thing is, one of the big talking points against the MRAP's (They're mine resistant! What do the cops need something that's mine resistant for?!) is also one of the things that I've heard PD's are bitching about. Part of the mine resistant design means that the MRAP is high off the ground, making them difficult for tactical teams to mount and dismount and leaving an open spot underneath for bad guys to shoot at them.

The ridiculousness starts with no one here being upset with many police departments using these:

(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCAX5SBRZ.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCAX5SBRZ.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCAB4E0S7.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCAB4E0S7.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCASNDU0D.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCASNDU0D.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCAIEF3VT.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCAIEF3VT.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCAZP2W55.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCAZP2W55.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCA6HAQ55.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCA6HAQ55.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCA9PZK0W.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCA9PZK0W.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCA90JU5T.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCA90JU5T.jpg.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/lawhog/imagesCAC5WHOT.jpg) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/lawhog/media/imagesCAC5WHOT.jpg.html)

The sad thing is, they all have roughly the same ballistics defeating properties, while more than half of these are more capable than the one people here are crying about.  The only thing the Bear is more capable of doing is having the potential to defeat IED's and landmines.   :facepalm:  :facepalm:

I guess having a tall personnel carrier is a bad thing to have.

How madman sees the police in the US

3rd ID TF 1-64 Baghdad Thunder Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGQxR1FXta8#)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2014/02/04/scenes-from-a-militarized-america-iowa-family-terrorized/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2014/02/04/scenes-from-a-militarized-america-iowa-family-terrorized/)

Members of a Des Moines family say they were terrorized in their own home by Ankeny police.
Sally Prince is afraid to stay in her own home. "I've been so traumatized. I don't sleep at night," Prince says.
On Thursday, Ankeny police executed a search warrant looking for someone they suspected of using stolen credit cards to buy clothes and electronics.
The whole search was caught on surveillance video.
Ankeny police tell us they knocked first, but the video shows one officer pounding on the side of the house and seconds later, officers use a battering ram to force their way in.
The video also shows an officer destroying a security camera outside the home.
Two people in the house were arrested on unrelated charges, and the family says none of the items listed on the warrant were found.
Prince's son, Justin Ross, was in the bathroom when police burst in, and he was carrying a gun that he has the legal right to carry. "I stood up, I drew my weapon, I started to get myself together to get out the door, I heard someone in the main room say police. I re-holstered my weapon sat back down and put my hands in my lap," Ross recalls.
"This is over property purchased with a stolen credit card," Prince adds. "It doesn't make any sense to go to such extremes for something that simple."
Two of the people there had no criminal history. Justin Ross was honorably discharged from the Army recently.  The third person does have an arrest record, but the most serious charge was theft and that charge was dismissed.
The family says they would have answered the door if police had just knocked.
Ankeny police executed the warrant in Des Moines because the alleged theft took place in Ankeny, but the suspects live in Des Moines.
Ankeny police say they do not have a written policy governing how search warrants are executed. They're not commenting further because it's an ongoing investigation.

Can they even go across jurisdictions and do this? 

And the update on this makes the whole situation even more troubling.  They did it because one of the guys there had a gun permit... :huh:

Very disturbing. A good lesson here on at least a few levels.

First when WtP vote for more handouts from government; Obamercare, mortgage bailouts, TARP, and C4C, unions, minimum/living wage laws, etc., etc.; we also vote for police militarization. Remember, the two most catastrophic police states in history - Nazi German and Soviet Russia - came to power under the tender auspices of the welfare state; and the welfare state cannot exist without the police state and more of the former begets and demands more of the latter.

Secondly, see, gun nuts were right about gun registration's only practical use is to target law abiding citizens.

A good (and hilarious) solution. But then such doors would be outlawed  :facepalm: :

Turkish Police Door Fail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlsAkFjL8l0#ws)

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2014, 03:51:06 PM
Very disturbing. A good lesson here on at least a few levels.

First when WtP vote for more handouts from government; Obamercare, mortgage bailouts, TARP, and C4C, unions, minimum/living wage laws, etc., etc.; we also vote for police militarization

:nutty:

Quote from: NomisR on February 05, 2014, 02:07:59 PM
And the update on this makes the whole situation even more troubling.  They did it because one of the guys there had a gun permit... :huh:

That's just stupid.

Of all the people who've pulled a gun on a cop over the years; how many have had a permit? How many cops have been shot by lawful permit holding gun owners? I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say far, far fewer than those who've been shot by those without the required permits.

Why would you intentionally create a high risk situation for a non violent crime because the suspect is known to be a law abiding gun owner?

Quote from: saxonyron on January 26, 2014, 01:54:45 PM
That about sums up Keene.  My Bro in law in a cop just outside of Keene, knows it intimately. He was floored when they pulled the stunt. 3 in-laws went to Keene State College.  Sure Hounddog, plenty of bad guys that need neutralizing, and yes, Greg, I'm a tin foil hatted lunatic (but I listen to more NPR than talk radio, sooo....), please take an objective step back.  How many SWAT teams were obliterated by lunatic gunmen in the past 40 years?  Back in the dark days when they used the standard issue SWAT trucks? I can see big cities needing this, but seriously.  No one is going to convince me that a sleepy village like Keene needs an MRAP.  Especially a brand new procured one,  not surplus equipment.  Do you guys remember what that acronym stands for??   Mine Resistant Ambush Protected.  If this is essential equipment for local police forces, in you LEO's opinion, I question the your thought processes.  Maybe the lure of "free" federal money is just too much to resist, so we can rationalize anything.   

I have to defer to Ben Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  Really think about his quote.  It's painfully accurate in this situation.

Seriously, nothing happens in Keene, LOL

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/)

The Pumpkin Riot of 2014. Never forget haha

Animals :nutty:.

Quote from: FoMoJo on October 21, 2014, 01:08:43 PM
Animals :nutty:.

Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 21, 2014, 03:01:56 PM
Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

:lol:  I read some of it

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 21, 2014, 03:01:56 PM
Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

Black Twitter has a field day with everything. :lol:

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 21, 2014, 03:01:56 PM
Black Twitter was having a field day with this.

LOL I bet.  Privileged white animals.

Quote from: Catman on October 21, 2014, 08:34:07 AM
Seriously, nothing happens in Keene, LOL

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/keene-new-hampshire-pumpkin-festival-turns-to-mayhem/)

:lol: Thank God they had their MRAP to overrun the drunken college students who lost control at the FinnaRage Rave. Still no excuse for military vehicles in local PD's. Don't you be drinking that Coolaide! :nono: