I just got back from the local auto mall's used car warehouse, looking for a replacement for my Mazda, and I'm just blown away by the prices on used cars these days.
2011 base model (the one with steel wheels), no options Camaro - $21K. It was low mileage (a few K more than my Mustang) and CPO but still... That was a $23K dollar car when new! A brand new base V6 model stickers for just under $24K (before haggling, rebates, etc...)!
Then I see one of the cars I had seen listed on their webpage that I was interested in. '09 Jetta base model with 55K miles for $9,990. That's on the higher end of the retail book value, implying a pretty clean car. Clean it was not. Every one of the wheels (or wheel covers) had serious curb damage. Scrapes, cracks, and gouges. Passenger's front corner had obvious damage from hitting something. Scrapes and patches of missing paint. The damage extended onto the front fender sheet metal where the exposed metal was rusting and the paint around it blistering. You could see it from 50 feet away. The passenger's side rocker was folded or buckled under. Not sure what would have caused that other than somebody maybe trying to jack the car up and putting it in the wrong spot. Plus the myriad smaller dents and dings that you'd expect on a 6 year old car. A few minor door dings and even some light hail damage I can stomach, but there's no way that much cosmetic damage can demand top dollar, even with the low miles.
Then there was an '07 Honda Fit automatic with just over 100K miles. Obvious damaged paint on the driver's front corner and the bumper and front fender didn't mate up correctly. Looked like at least one broken bumper clip, possibly a bent fender. Price on the window was $9K, IIRC (webpage lists $8500, but that may be an internet special price). Seems steep to me (KBB and NADA put retail at ~7.5K).
Outside of the stealership, I see an '08 Rabbit 3-door MT on Craigslist. Average miles for the age. Can't tell exactly how the body looks from the few pictures posted. Looks like a base model with cloth seats and whatnot. Radio antenna is broken. Seller advertises that the AC "needs a recharge". Tires advertised as "good for one more season", which I take to mean there's less than 50% of the usable tread left. They're asking $9500 for it. Retail value on that car, assuming dealership condition (which means no busted antenna, fully functional AC, and new tires) is just under $9K at the high end. Private party for a car in "good" condition is like $7K. I'll be shooting them an email to check out the car and if it otherwise looks good, I'll see if they'll take something more reasonable for it.
Anybody else seeing this in their area or is this a localized phenomena?
Is this local auto mall Driver's Village?
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 19, 2014, 03:36:12 PM
Is this local auto mall Driver's Village?
Yes. But the nutty pricing is not isolated to them.
One has to ignore sticker prices. They're always way too high and always have been. KBB (based on data of sales) on a CPO 2011 base LS Camaro is $18,015 (@ 45k miles which I couldn't change).
Quote from: GoCougs on September 19, 2014, 03:53:13 PM
One has to ignore sticker prices. They're always way too high and always have been. KBB (based on data of sales) on a CPO 2011 base LS Camaro is $18,015 (@ 45k miles which I couldn't change).
Yeah, assume that the list prices are inflated to make room for haggling -- when I helped my grandmother buy her Hyundai Accent, the AutoTrader listing was for $8,000 and when we got to the dealer the window sticker was like $11,000.
craigslist prices are equally nuts here on the jersey shore.
Prices here can get a bit bonkers too. You just have to be choosy and prepare to haggle. Subaru,Toyota and Honda especially being high in the used market.
Yeah, they can be nuts. All of a sudden people think cars are going out of style or something. So if something is rare (in any perceivable way), good on gas, has more than one door, highly sought after (in whatever illogical way), the seller feels that he or she can jack up the price. Rare practical four door with the highly sought after four mismatched tire package and cloth seats! Good on gas! 350,000 miles, Subaru AWD! $14,000.
Used car prices are ridiculous. I used to buy my cars in the US because your prices were so much lower than ours, but there is really no point now. I bought my G37 in Vancouver because it was actually $2000 less than what I could get it anywhere in the US for. Almost every vehicle I look at now, the American price is within +/- 10% of the Canadian price, whereas it used to be as much as 50% less. I got my Explorer for $14,000 less in Seattle and my SVT Focus for $10,000 less in San Jose. Now the difference in price isn't worth the time or the plane ticket.
People finally wised up that they don't need a new car every 3 years, add in the recent economic crunch, people are keeping them longer and are no longer ashamed to BUY a used car.
Supply and demand, yada yada...
I also remember reading that the floods/hurricanes up in NJ added to other storms (Katrina) wipe out thousands and thousands of used cars, further pushing the used car market up. In some cases, it makes sense to buy new rather than used.!
My price range is always the 100k+ miles, when the majority of people are getting rid of them anyway, so that seems fairly stable, but gone are the days I'd buy a $3000 car and expect it to last several years with no major issues.
Yeah, used car prices are stupid high. I put 15k miles and have owned my Element for a year. I bought it from a dealership. I've lost $1000-$1500 in value. Not bad at all IMO.
I noticed this when I was car hunting a few years ago. There wasn't much incentive to buy used when you could get a similar model new for a few grand more.
Cash for clunkers?
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 20, 2014, 02:33:15 PM
Cash for clunkers?
Naww, the numbers for that just don't add up for the prices we're seeing.
A big part of it is the ultra-low APR "we'll finance everybody" credit scams are less prevalent.
I'm hoping to get about 8 for my Z, which is pretty ridiculous. It should really be like 4-5.
In 2003 I bought my first Accord, which was a 93, for $2200 with 93K miles on it. 10 years later, a 10 year old Accord with way more miles goes for like 3-4x as much. It's pretty silly, but that's the game I guess.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2014, 07:28:50 AM
I'm hoping to get about 8 for my Z, which is pretty ridiculous. It should really be like 4-5.
In 2003 I bought my first Accord, which was a 93, for $2200 with 93K miles on it. 10 years later, a 10 year old Accord with way more miles goes for like 3-4x as much. It's pretty silly, but that's the game I guess.
Hmm...I'll buy your Z for 4. I'll through some snow tires on it and make it my winter car/grocery getter.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2014, 07:28:50 AM
I'm hoping to get about 8 for my Z, which is pretty ridiculous. It should really be like 4-5.
In 2003 I bought my first Accord, which was a 93, for $2200 with 93K miles on it. 10 years later, a 10 year old Accord with way more miles goes for like 3-4x as much. It's pretty silly, but that's the game I guess.
You're selling the Z?
Dealerships are really out to lunch around here, frankly just another reason to avoid them. It used to be not as bad because even though they always had high sticker prices, they would at least deal off them. Now it's all this "no haggle" bs that is bunch of shit.
I prefer private party's for used car shopping.
Quote from: Lebowski on September 21, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
You're selling the Z?
he doesn't need it anymore. He's going to carpool with char.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 21, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
Dealerships are really out to lunch around here, frankly just another reason to avoid them. It used to be not as bad because even though they always had high sticker prices, they would at least deal off them. Now it's all this "no haggle" bs that is bunch of shit.
I prefer private party's for used car shopping.
Private party asking prices are just as nutty around here. They seem to think they can ask about the same money the dealerships are, and often for vehicles that are in worse shape than what you'll get in the dealerships.
Quote from: MX793 on September 21, 2014, 01:34:27 PM
Private party asking prices are just as nutty around here. They seem to think they can ask about the same money the dealerships are, and often for vehicles that are in worse shape than what you'll get in the dealerships.
I've seen some private parties around here doing the same. With everybody asking too much money it just makes more sense to buy new if you're looking at slightly used. I've seen dealership selling a few year old car for the damn near the price of a new model.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 21, 2014, 01:37:18 PM
I've seen some private parties around here doing the same. With everybody asking too much money it just makes more sense to buy new if you're looking at slightly used. I've seen dealership selling a few year old car for the damn near the price of a new model.
Methinks there is method to their madness!
Quote from: ifcar on September 21, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
Methinks there is method to their madness!
I wouldn't give them that much credit. Car dealers arent usually the brightest in the bunch. The only reason they aren't overcharging on new cars is due to msrp.
Quote from: Lebowski on September 21, 2014, 12:34:23 PM
You're selling the Z?
Yea.... commute is 25K/yr, racking up a few too many speeding tickets and the lack of practicality is starting to get to me
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2014, 04:53:10 PM
Yea.... commute is 25K/yr, racking up a few too many speeding tickets and the lack of practicality is starting to get to me
If I can use an Accent as a pickup truck, you can use the Z as a commuter. Mod it up, commuting style.
I know it has no trunk, but can you get a roof rack and some Yakima/Thule cargo box? Yeah $, but so is swapping cars.
Since it will probably block the rear window, you can install a backup camera.
25k/year probably costs a fortune in tires. Look at minis-sizing the wheels for higher profile/cheaper tires, maybe even equal sizing all around so you can do rotations... Unless the brakes are just too big, I dunno.
It can run on regular gas, right? So do that, too. Unless it can't, in that case, get an ecu tune so you can.
Just thoughts.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 21, 2014, 01:21:29 PM
he doesn't need it anymore. He's going to carpool with char.
:fogey: :lol:
I would recommend filling up the hatch with concrete to reduce speeding tickets.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 21, 2014, 05:52:01 PM
I would recommend filling up the hatch with concrete to reduce speeding tickets.
This would only reduce drag
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 21, 2014, 05:52:01 PM
I would recommend filling up the hatch with concrete to reduce speeding tickets.
hmmm, lower center of gravity, more traction, but better inertia= better to go faster :lol:
Down here depreciation is still crazy. Especially on euro luxury sedans.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 21, 2014, 09:21:50 PM
Down here depreciation is still crazy. Especially on euro luxury sedans.
Are people good about maintenance down there? What are the warranties like?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 22, 2014, 06:53:25 AM
Are people good about maintenance down there? What are the warranties like?
It's a crap shoot. For most new cars people will stick to the manufacturer's recommended maintenance while the warranty is still valid. After that, who knows? Most people do not keep service records, even among enthusiasts like in the club.
Warranties are lower than in the US for most if not all brands. And CPO programs are in their infancy, at most with a 12 month warranty.
BMW specifically offers a 3 year warranty with maintenance.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 21, 2014, 09:21:50 PM
Down here depreciation is still crazy. Especially on euro luxury sedans.
Depending on the tier level of the Luxury sedan, depreciation for them where I live is rather high as well. We're talking high end 5 series and up type vehicles though. Some Lexus models do ok, but overall, most high level Lux drops like a stone after a few years.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 21, 2014, 07:11:10 PM
This would only reduce drag
Perhaps he should also disconnect 2 of the injectors. Saves gas and reduces horsepower.
Quote from: Northlands on September 22, 2014, 07:52:41 AM
Depending on the tier level of the Luxury sedan, depreciation for them where I live is rather high as well. We're talking high end 5 series and up type vehicles though. Some Lexus models do ok, but overall, most high level Lux drops like a stone after a few years.
A 2012 5er here has lost about 43-50% in value already. The higher the trim the worse (or better depending on viewpoint) it gets. 2013 M5s list for 30-40% below their new price.
The few people I know who have bought high end luxury cars on the used market have all regretted it though. They didn't really have enough coin to comfortably buy them new and then they get flustered as the cost of maintaining them is much higher than their previous Camcord.
200+ dollars a tire, 1000 dollar minimum every time car is taken to the dealer, high insurance, etc. etc. Then they really will take a bath if they try to unload it because now it's a 2nd owner luxury car they're trying to sell.
The person who buys a new MB E class or S class usually knows exactly what they're getting into and they're willing and able to pay to get into that club. The person who buys the 3 year old used E class instead of the Toyota Avalon they were planning often doesn't really get what it costs to be in that club.
This is just from my experience though with relatives/friends.
Who the hell buys a used car and then takes it to the dealer for routine maintenance?
Quote from: veeman on September 22, 2014, 09:29:22 PM
The few people I know who have bought high end luxury cars on the used market have all regretted it though. They didn't really have enough coin to comfortably buy them new and then they get flustered as the cost of maintaining them is much higher than their previous Camcord.
200+ dollars a tire, 1000 dollar minimum every time car is taken to the dealer, high insurance, etc. etc. Then they really will take a bath if they try to unload it because now it's a 2nd owner luxury car they're trying to sell.
The person who buys a new MB E class or S class usually knows exactly what they're getting into and they're willing and able to pay to get into that club. The person who buys the 3 year old used E class instead of the Toyota Avalon they were planning often doesn't really get what it costs to be in that club.
This is just from my experience though with relatives/friends.
100% agree. In general luxury cars aren't very good at being cars really when accounting for the huge step function in cost to own/maintain/repair, save for Lexus.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2014, 10:09:46 PM
Who the hell buys a used car and then takes it to the dealer for routine maintenance?
You gonna take your 2012 S550 to Jiffy Lube?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 11:31:07 PM
You gonna take your 2012 S550 to Jiffy Lube?
You think you're getting a better job done at the dealership?
Protip: when buying used cars, know a decent mechanic, or be prepared to work on it yourself.
Yeah, on cars like Accords, buying slightly used doesn't really make sense at all. I'd rather pay a couple grand more and get it new.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
You think you're getting a better job done at the dealership?
Protip: when buying used cars, know a decent mechanic, or be prepared to work on it yourself.
+1
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
You think you're getting a better job done at the dealership?
Protip: when buying used cars, know a decent mechanic, or be prepared to work on it yourself.
Protip: if you buy a used S550 and have to "be prepared" (i.e., can't afford to take it to the dealer for service and repairs) you can't afford the car (which was veeman's excellent point).
Quote from: MrH on September 23, 2014, 01:55:17 AM
Yeah, on cars like Accords, buying slightly used doesn't really make sense at all. I'd rather pay a couple grand more and get it new.
Buying slightly used is still a better deal financially - and you'd better pay a lot less than a couple grand of list.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 08:25:58 AM
Buying slightly used is still a better deal financially - and you'd better pay a lot less than a couple grand of list.
Depends actually- if you're buying just 1-3yrs old it could swing either way, used car prices are nuts high right now..
And that's just if you're paying cash- if someone has to get a loan, it might make more sense for them to get a new car at 0% than a few percent on a used car...
Quote from: MX793 on September 19, 2014, 03:31:20 PM
I just got back from the local auto mall's used car warehouse, looking for a replacement for my Mazda, and I'm just blown away by the prices on used cars these days.
Anybody else seeing this in their area or is this a localized phenomena?
Keep in mind what you are seeing are asking prices, not the price the cars actually sell for.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
Protip: if you buy a used S550 and have to "be prepared" (i.e., can't afford to take it to the dealer for service and repairs) you can't afford the car (which was veeman's excellent point).
Fortunately there are very good independent shops that specialise in high end euro brands exactly for this. But still, there you save maybe 20% - 30% vs the dealer. You still have to go in knowing that shit can get expensive at any time.
So you're mostly right IMO.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2014, 08:28:24 AM
Depends actually- if you're buying just 1-3yrs old it could swing either way, used car prices are nuts high right now..
And that's just if you're paying cash- if someone has to get a loan, it might make more sense for them to get a new car at 0% than a few percent on a used car...
Yeah, the depreciation hit just isn't as big as it used to be. That extra couple grand also buys you peace of mind at the very least.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
Protip: if you buy a used S550 and have to "be prepared" (i.e., can't afford to take it to the dealer for service and repairs) you can't afford the car (which was veeman's excellent point).
No point in paying more than you have to just because you can.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
Protip: if you buy a used S550 and have to "be prepared" (i.e., can't afford to take it to the dealer for service and repairs) you can't afford the car (which was veeman's excellent point).
I agree
Nobody is buying S550s anyway.... lease n toss....
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
You think you're getting a better job done at the dealership?
Protip: when buying used cars, know a decent mechanic, or be prepared to work on it yourself.
Thats my motto! "You better know how to turn a wrench or have a good friend that does!" I tell people all the time "If it was expensive when new it'll be just as expensive when it's old!"
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on September 23, 2014, 06:05:12 PM
Thats my motto! "You better know how to turn a wrench or have a good friend that does!" I tell people all the time "If it was expensive when new it'll be just as expensive when it's old!"
Or at the very least, a good mechanic you can trust.
The absolute last resort is taking the car to the dealership for anything outside of warranty work.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
Or at the very least, a good mechanic you can trust.
The absolute last resort is taking the car to the dealership for anything outside of warranty work.
I agree! I have two guys that will handle the work that I can't! One is kind of high (still cheaper than the stealership) and all he works on is high end cars!
Me car prices...
2010 Accent GS 3dr 5spd
New
MSRP: $11,995
Now with 60K
Edmund's TMV
Trade: $4,450
Private: $5,422
Retail: $6,403
KBB
Trade: $4,619
Private: $5,812
Retail: $7,686
Actual dealer asking prices:
$10,991 ('10 auto) 55K http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/4670000969.html (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/4670000969.html)
$9,836 ('10 SE auto 59K) http://norfolk.craigslist.org/ctd/4676043928.html (http://norfolk.craigslist.org/ctd/4676043928.html)
$9,288 ('10 4dr 66K) http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/ctd/4658149763.html (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/ctd/4658149763.html)
$5,995 ('09 auto 87K) http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/ctd/4672877819.html (http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/ctd/4672877819.html)
crazy!
I always refer to Accords because that's my life. I bought a 93 Accord with 93K miles in 2003 for $2200. A 2004 Accord today with more miles goes for about 3-4x as much.
One funny thing though is how much of a beating certain cars are still taking and what their depreciation says about the change in priorities. A 2004 MB S500 goes for about $1-2K LESS than a same year Accord. Seems like the avg American has been humbled by the recession and is putting a higher value on basic transportation rather than cheap luxury.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 24, 2014, 01:54:54 PM
I always refer to Accords because that's my life. I bought a 93 Accord with 93K miles in 2003 for $2200. A 2004 Accord today with more miles goes for about 3-4x as much.
One funny thing though is how much of a beating certain cars are still taking and what their depreciation says about the change in priorities. A 2004 MB S500 goes for about $1-2K LESS than a same year Accord. Seems like the avg American has been humbled by the recession and is putting a higher value on basic transportation rather than cheap luxury.
Wow. People really like them some Accord.
Quote from: veeman on September 24, 2014, 02:24:09 PM
Wow. People really like them some Accord.
I bet Camry's are in a similar price category. Popular mid-sizers that are reliable will hold their value.
Big time.
Long gone are the days when you bought a Mercedes to drive into the ground. They are bought and built to be seen in, which makes an old one immediately useless.
The last one came out in 2007... those are retailing at just over the $20K mark. I think in 2-3 years they will be in the 4 digit range too.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 24, 2014, 02:36:05 PM
Big time.
Long gone are the days when you bought a Mercedes to drive into the ground. They are bought and built to be seen in, which makes an old one immediately useless.
The last one came out in 2007... those are retailing at just over the $20K mark. I think in 2-3 years they will be in the 4 digit range too.
My boy is in the market for a 07-08 S550 and I could believe how cheap they are!!!
The entry fee is low.... but the cost to stay is still like a $100K car.... OUT of warranty
He should seriously consider something else. S Class is an old man car.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 24, 2014, 01:54:54 PM
I always refer to Accords because that's my life. I bought a 93 Accord with 93K miles in 2003 for $2200. A 2004 Accord today with more miles goes for about 3-4x as much.
One funny thing though is how much of a beating certain cars are still taking and what their depreciation says about the change in priorities. A 2004 MB S500 goes for about $1-2K LESS than a same year Accord. Seems like the avg American has been humbled by the recession and is putting a higher value on basic transportation rather than cheap luxury.
Speaking from experience, old Benzes (especially S classes) are a huge liability. I think our 2002 sold for something like $3000. They're just not the right kind of car to buy on a budget. From what I see, old Benzes tend to be really popular with a certain crowd, but that's it.
Quote from: Raza on September 28, 2014, 07:11:36 AM
Speaking from experience, old Benzes (especially S classes) are a huge liability. I think our 2002 sold for something like $3000. They're just not the right kind of car to buy on a budget. From what I see, old Benzes tend to be really popular with a certain crowd, but that's it.
A ten year old S class is coming up on getting some pretty seriously expensive replacement parts. Only stupid people trying to look richer than they are or guys with the Will and know how to do a lot of that themselves will be interested.
And guys that wrench on their own cars typically don't buy S classes anyways.