I'm tired of Sporty and his shit thread, so I decided to make my own.
I don't know what I'll do it on yet, but we'll figure it out. What about a 2012 Mazda 3 that belongs to the GF?
The first thing you should figure out: The CORRECT section for your shit (whatever it is, it ain't luxury or anywhere near it)
You two should just have angry make-up sex and put this whole silly kerfuffle behind you.
I think you should buy your own car and stop depending on your girlfriend for rides.
Here we go......
(http://i.imgur.com/O6aygTB.png)
Haven't seen much more beta here than a build thread with nothing to build, made out of revenge over a disagreement over the internet. I think Char hit "n" when he meant to hit "m" in the title.
:popcorn:
Sporty vs Char :rockon:
Quote from: AltinD on September 21, 2014, 03:52:34 AM
The first thing you should figure out: The CORRECT section for your shit (whatever it is, it ain't luxury or anywhere near it)
You don't know I drive.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on September 21, 2014, 08:53:09 AM
:popcorn:
+1
Came here for entertainment, so far Score is Sporty 1 Char -1
Man, first time I've seen a build thread with no actual car to build...
It's a fantasy build :huh:.
Mini Cooper?
http://www.revell.com/model-kits/cars/85-4035.html#.VB8Y04r3bCQ (http://www.revell.com/model-kits/cars/85-4035.html#.VB8Y04r3bCQ)
This will be fun.
A build thread by someone that refuses to tell people what he drives. I'm sure whatever mythical beast he drives has all sorts of special and unmentionable performance parts. Sure to put down huge amounts of power which can not be disclosed.
I guess I shouldn't be too hard on him, people generally don't want to discuss such personal details about what they drive to a bunch of strangers on a car forum.
Too much at stake
(http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ekrzykol1qb3mmfo1_500.jpg)
(http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/nissan/quest/1996/oem/1996_nissan_quest_passenger-minivan_xe_fq_oem_1_500.jpg)
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3342/1/8352500001_large.jpg)
Quote from: 68_427 on September 21, 2014, 05:14:01 PM
(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3342/1/8352500001_large.jpg)
oh now it's on!!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2014, 07:22:56 AM
Here we go......
(http://i.imgur.com/O6aygTB.png)
Haven't seen much more beta here than a build thread with nothing to build, made out of revenge over a disagreement over the internet. I think Char hit "n" when he meant to hit "m" in the title.
:clap:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/b9832f.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/1194c8x.jpg)
You've got a metal pipe. That's a good start.
Now to find the rest of the car.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 21, 2014, 09:51:32 PM
You've got a metal pipe. That's a good start.
Now to find the rest of the car.
Y pipe by Burns Stainless. The VG30E from the quest needs to breathe!
Y pipes are for slowcars. X pipe for racecar.
MCAT flashcards, huh? Ohhhhhhh boy
VG30ET swap
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 21, 2014, 10:21:05 PM
Y pipes are for slowcars. X pipe for racecar.
Stop posting.
DETT or bust
Char! Style, luxury and comfort. :ohyeah:
(http://s27.postimg.org/cl4ftk8cj/232.jpg)
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 21, 2014, 10:32:41 PM
MCAT flashcards, huh? Ohhhhhhh boy
What else is he going to do while waiting in the Quest for mommy to come out of the store?
Y does a Y pipe need a brand on it?
That's how you know you're getting a true Y-pipe and not a T-pipe. Engineering and stuff.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 22, 2014, 01:27:26 PM
Y does a Y pipe need a brand on it?
It's tuned to the exhaust gas pulses of the engine, hopefully that means extra horsepower.
Y-pipe usually means 4 cyl, turbo.
I'm gonna go with Cobalt SS.
I vote GTI
Man the MCAT flash cards explain so much. Kid's a frustrated premed
Nice, so that pipe will probably net what? 20? maybe 30 whp?
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 22, 2014, 01:59:39 PM
Man the MCAT flash cards explain so much. Kid's a frustrated premed
Oh man... That was awesome Sherlock. Seriously. :clap:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 01:45:41 PM
Y-pipe usually means 4 cyl, turbo.
Where in a turbo 4 cylinder's exhaust stream would a y pipe fit?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 22, 2014, 01:59:59 PM
Nice, so that pipe will probably net what? 20? maybe 30 whp?
5-10whp for a full "Race" exhaust if I'm lucky.
Stock Vs reflash
(http://i57.tinypic.com/bgegpk.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2zq8rd3.jpg)
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 22, 2014, 01:59:39 PM
Man the MCAT flash cards explain so much. Kid's a frustrated premed
Not in PreMed, not a kid. Keep guessing.
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:19:57 PM
Not in PreMed, not a kid. Keep guessing.
Uh, that was actually props given your behavior. You should have taken it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 22, 2014, 02:14:09 PM
Where in a turbo 4 cylinder's exhaust stream would a y pipe fit?
How does a GTI or TSX or all sorts of other such 4 cyl cars have "dual" exhaust?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 02:25:12 PM
Uh, that was actually props given your behavior. You should have taken it.
I know what it was supposed to mean, and I don't care.
Someone on this forum actually already knows what car it is (I told them), I'll keep dropping hints.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 02:28:19 PM
How does a GTI or TSX or all sorts of other such 4 cyl cars have "dual" exhaust?
TSXs don't have a true dual system, it just splits at the muffler.
(http://www.andysautosport.com/images/skunk2/413-05-2030.jpg)
That's not what this is, it's (hopefully) a true single from the exhaust manifolds back. Lighter weight, better exhaust gas scavenging., more power.
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:28:54 PM
I know what it was supposed to mean, and I don't care.
Someone on this forum actually already knows what car it is (I told them), I'll keep dropping hints.
I don't think anybody really cares what you drive. So your little secretive game is pretty pathetic.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 22, 2014, 02:34:51 PM
I don't think anybody really cares what you drive. So your little secretive game is pretty pathetic.
So why comment about it, why are you in this thread? Exactly. :golfclap:
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:53:44 PM
So why comment about it, why are you in this thread? Exactly. :golfclap:
Your right, I do care. It's one of the few things left in life that give me any excitement. I can't wait for the day you reveal to us all your astounding piece of automotive hardware. You reign above us dabbling little morsels down to us. Teasing us with a glimpse at greatness.
Though in a way I hope you never tell, for that day we will all be so profoundly shocked that all our grasps at automotive enthusiasm will have been for nothing.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 22, 2014, 03:03:45 PM
Your right, I do care. It's one of the few things left in life that give me any excitement. I can't wait for the day you reveal to us all your astounding piece of automotive hardware. You reign above us dabbling little morsels down to us. Teasing us with a glimpse at greatness.
Though in a way I hope you never tell, for that day we will all be so profoundly shocked that all our grasps at automotive enthusiasm will have been for nothing.
Fair enough, I won't.
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 03:17:15 PM
Fair enough, I won't.
and the internets greatest mystery will continue
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:31:24 PM
TSXs don't have a true dual system, it just splits at the muffler.
(http://www.andysautosport.com/images/skunk2/413-05-2030.jpg)
That's not what this is, it's (hopefully) a true single from the exhaust manifolds back. Lighter weight, better exhaust gas scavenging., more power.
Both generations of TSX use separate mufflers + y-pipe (one can plainly see the separate mufflers behind each exhaust tip, plus the y junction):
1st gen:
(http://img.netcarshow.com/Acura-TSX_2005_1600x1200_wallpaper_13.jpg)
2nd gen :
(http://wikicarshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2011%20cars/2010%20Acura%20TSX%203.5%204dr%20Sedan%20Back%20View.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 03:35:10 PM
Both generations of TSX use separate mufflers + y-pipe (one can plainly see the separate mufflers behind each exhaust tip, plus the y junction):
1st gen:
(http://img.netcarshow.com/Acura-TSX_2005_1600x1200_wallpaper_13.jpg)
2nd gen :
(http://wikicarshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2011%20cars/2010%20Acura%20TSX%203.5%204dr%20Sedan%20Back%20View.jpg)
Cougs: 1
Char: 0
I officially challenge Char to an autocross race. Fastest time on same course wins, no handicaps.
Looks like an M50 curve
Quote from: Submariner on September 22, 2014, 03:36:45 PM
Cougs: 1
Char: 0
To me this is plainly someone's alter ego as He has alluded to some intimate 'SPIN knowledge.
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 22, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
I officially challenge Char to an autocross race. Fastest time on same course wins, no handicaps.
Who's going to drive char's car?
:lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 03:35:10 PM
Both generations of TSX use separate mufflers + y-pipe (one can plainly see the separate mufflers behind each exhaust tip, plus the y junction):
1st gen:
(http://img.netcarshow.com/Acura-TSX_2005_1600x1200_wallpaper_13.jpg)
2nd gen :
(http://wikicarshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2011%20cars/2010%20Acura%20TSX%203.5%204dr%20Sedan%20Back%20View.jpg)
You just restated the same thing I said - It's NOT a true dual system, it splits at the mufflers.
Char is right.
(http://www.mileoneparts.com/media/images/oe/collision/4/4830160.gif)
Char 1
Cougs 0
Turbo guys? Really? With that dyno?
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!
N/A 250 crank hp.
Z4 3.0si?
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 22, 2014, 04:15:27 PM
N/A 250 crank hp.
Z4 3.0si?
(http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx292/mmotorwerks/Z430si91tuned.jpg)
Quote from: SVT666 on September 22, 2014, 03:57:35 PM
Char is right.
(http://www.mileoneparts.com/media/images/oe/collision/4/4830160.gif)
Char 1
Cougs 0
There is a y-junction/pipe and then the pipe splits to feed into two separate mufflers. Char's kick-ass stainless steel y-pipe (KASSY) would be at this split.
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:31:24 PM
TSXs don't have a true dual system, it just splits at the muffler.
That's not what this is, it's (hopefully) a true single from the exhaust manifolds back. Lighter weight, better exhaust gas scavenging., more power.
Char was envisioning a GTI-like system with a single pipe + single muffler that simply has two exhaust outlets (and hence, no opportunity to use his KASSY, unless he goes with an aftermarket system):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-myREnOUKSCg/TWtPiiuhMxI/AAAAAAAAAGk/MHTxCrZ0ZR8/s1600/VW+Golf+6+GTI+x+Arqray+2.jpg)
Aftermarket GTI exhaust system (KASSY compatible):
(http://awe-tuning.com/media/products/awe/Mk6/20T_Exhaust/gallery/img/AWE_Mk6_exhaust_roundtips_800.jpg)
FYI I really really don't recommend getting in the middle here.
Did you see the original TSX picture I posted?
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
Did you see the original TSX picture I posted?
You posted no such pic, but you posting a pic that proves yourself wrong does not help your wrongness. Take your wrongess like a man and carry on with your "build" thread, KASSY and all.
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 02:31:24 PM
TSXs don't have a true dual system, it just splits at the muffler.
(http://www.andysautosport.com/images/skunk2/413-05-2030.jpg)
That's not what this is, it's (hopefully) a true single from the exhaust manifolds back. Lighter weight, better exhaust gas scavenging., more power.
:hammerhead:
Exactly, your KASSY would to right at the y-junction (though that system looks to have a flange rather than weld).
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2014, 04:05:30 PM
Turbo guys? Really? With that dyno?
With but ~215 hp he's setting himself up for a massive eating of crow. It's gonna be brutal.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 22, 2014, 03:40:17 PM
Looks like an M50 curve
I think, and said, N52 in the past. I believe in another thread he confirmed as much.
That the lil homie has to go to such lengths to hold people's attention is downright depressing.
I think it looks more like an L38 engine.
Iron duke
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 22, 2014, 07:00:21 PM
I think, and said, N52 in the past. I believe in another thread he confirmed as much.
That the lil homie has to go to such lengths to hold people's attention is downright depressing.
Quote from: Char on September 21, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
You guys are literally getting worked up over me, the biggest troll on the board. You're not as clever as you believe - I'm not playing your game, you're playing mine.
Cry more.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 06:29:38 PM
Exactly, your KASSY would to right at the y-junction (though that system looks to have a flange rather than weld).
You are on some HEAVY drugs. Why would anyone tune a Y pipe for a turbocharged application?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 22, 2014, 04:49:54 PM
kick-ass stainless steel y-pipe (KASSY)
The 944 has the Computer Assisted Shift Indicator System (CASIS). It's a glorified shift light, but I call it Cassy.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 22, 2014, 07:10:36 PM
Iron duke
But, looking at that torqie curve, it is obviously with a turbo with a Y-pipe.
obviously you just take old-fashioned donuts and run your intercooler lines through there so your intake air is icy
Quote from: Char on September 22, 2014, 07:29:05 PM
You are on some HEAVY drugs. Why would anyone tune a Y pipe for a turbocharged application?
Why would anyone "tune" a Y pipe for
any application?
Quote from: Rupert on September 22, 2014, 07:42:49 PM
The 944 has the Computer Assisted Shift Indicator System (CASIS). It's a glorified shift light, but I call it Cassy.
dat '80's tech
Other than tube diameter and maybe angle of the Y, what could you possibly even tune.
Yea most y pipes, especially at the back end of the exhaust, are not tuned.
And in any case, not sure why anyone would tune an exhaust- Cougs has said repeatedly that OEMs never leave any power on the table ;)
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 22, 2014, 11:17:21 PM
Other than tube diameter and maybe angle of the Y, what could you possibly even tune.
Only complete exhaust systems are "tuned."
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 08:47:14 AM
Only complete exhaust systems are "tuned."
By improving one section it would totally be possible to get a better "tune"..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2014, 08:54:58 AM
By improving one section it would totally be possible to get a better "tune"..
Generally no. Plus, by definition only "improving" one section is not tuning.
An exhaust is only as good as the worst part.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 23, 2014, 09:07:06 AM
An exhaust is only as good as the worst part.
There's no such thing as a "worst part" on any modern exhaust system.
There is ALWAYS such thing as a "worst part". Especially if it's GM.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 23, 2014, 10:15:02 AM
There is ALWAYS such thing as a "worst part". Especially if it's GM.
Well the worst part on any new car is probably the catalytic converter...
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
There's no such thing as a "worst part" on any modern exhaust system.
Those cats hanging off the log manifolds are probably some of the worst parts.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
There's no such thing as a "worst part" on any modern exhaust system.
That's retarded. Take a perfectly "tuned" exhaust and add a bad bend and you just messed it all up. That bad bend would be "the worst part", and fixing it has potential for better performance from the engine.
In the same thought, sure the OEMs build the best exhaust they can- FOR A PRICE, there is always room to improve it, and just like with a computer, you look at the "bottleneck" and upgrade that part first.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:06:58 AM
Generally no. Plus, by definition only "improving" one section is not tuning.
Who's definition is that?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
There's no such thing as a "worst part" on any modern exhaust system.
LOL
Your belief in he infallibility of automakers at times borders on the comical.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 23, 2014, 11:49:11 AM
Those cats hanging off the log manifolds are probably some of the worst parts.
Circa 1975 sure; automakers had to smog up motors but in modern times there's simply too much $$$ spent on powertrain development to botch exhaust (or intake or air filter or w/e ricer add-on du jour).
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2014, 11:57:32 AM
That's retarded. Take a perfectly "tuned" exhaust and add a bad bend and you just messed it all up. That bad bend would be "the worst part", and fixing it has potential for better performance from the engine.
In the same thought, sure the OEMs build the best exhaust they can- FOR A PRICE, there is always room to improve it, and just like with a computer, you look at the "bottleneck" and upgrade that part first.
Why would an automaker spend millions on a powertain only to "add a bad bend" to the exhaust system?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
LOL
Your belief in he infallibility of automakers at times borders on the comical.
What would push it over the border?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
Why would an automaker spend millions on a powertain only to "add a bad bend" to the exhaust system?
They wouldn't. But let's say they didn't spend the time/cash to thoroughly examine all the variants, it's totally possible a better bend could be found.
Why on earth do you think HP and mileage go up every decade??? It's not because the cars made 20yrs ago were perfectly efficient... There's also a reason aftermarket parts are bought and used.
:deadhorse"
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 23, 2014, 02:51:01 PM
:deadhorse"
why doesn't he keep the flies of the poor animal's face, too?
:huh:
I don't know what the arguement is - you can make 5+whp (sometimes even more than 10whp) depending on the car. Look at the 7th Generation Accord V6. A full bolt on 370Z, including intake, header and or testpipe/high flow catalyst/exhaust and a tune can make upwards of 40-50whp
I'd be happy to post the dynos.
me too
(http://www.badassoftheweek.com/trex.jpg)
(http://www.frankwu.com/Guitar.jpg)
ROFL
(http://boredboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/funny-dinosaur-front-lawn-costume-yard.jpg?d914da)
(http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/wedding-party-dinosaur.jpg)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
LOL
Your belief in he infallibility of automakers at times borders on the comical.
It all fits into the larger narrative of Smart Guys
TM, the superiority of big business over small business and capitalism solving all problems in the world.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 23, 2014, 04:29:46 PM
me too
(http://www.badassoftheweek.com/trex.jpg)
(http://www.frankwu.com/Guitar.jpg)
Never been a fan, and I hated Jurassic Park.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 23, 2014, 04:40:04 PM
It all fits into the larger narrative of Smart GuysTM, the superiority of big business over small business and capitalism solving all problems in the world.
Or, if you live in a world where everything is a clean sheet design without time or budget constraints, where last minute bean counter changes never happen, or where off the shelf designs are never shoehorned into applications where they just kinda fit.
Strangely familiar argument.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 02:38:48 PM
Why would an automaker spend millions on a powertain only to "add a bad bend" to the exhaust system?
You can't be this stupid....
Quote from: Char on September 23, 2014, 04:07:30 PM
Look at the 7th Generation Accord V6. A full bolt on 370Z, including intake, header and or testpipe/high flow catalyst/exhaust and a tune can make upwards of 40-50whp
Wait you can bolt a 370Z onto an Accord? Whoa
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 23, 2014, 05:30:24 PM
Wait you can bolt a 370Z onto an Accord? Whoa
In Sporty's case - you put a Accord in a 350Z.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 23, 2014, 04:49:53 PM
Strangely familiar argument.
Can you skip ahead to the point where we give a fuck?
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2014, 06:30:08 PM
Can you skip ahead to the point where we give a fuck?
Whatever is in your ass... it can be removed.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2014, 02:46:29 PM
They wouldn't. But let's say they didn't spend the time/cash to thoroughly examine all the variants, it's totally possible a better bend could be found.
Why on earth do you think HP and mileage go up every decade??? It's not because the cars made 20yrs ago were perfectly efficient... There's also a reason aftermarket parts are bought and used.
HP and mileage don't go up every decade because of a lack of bends.
Aftermarket parts like KASSY and CAIs and grounding kits are bought and used by people like Char (i.e., 'nuff said).
Quote from: Char on September 23, 2014, 04:07:30 PM
:huh:
I don't know what the arguement is - you can make 5+whp (sometimes even more than 10whp) depending on the car. Look at the 7th Generation Accord V6. A full bolt on 370Z, including intake, header and or testpipe/high flow catalyst/exhaust and a tune can make upwards of 40-50whp
I'd be happy to post the dynos.
The "argument" is you do not know what you are talking about. KASSY is rice, lol at detecting 5whp on a chassis dyno, and there's a very good reason why a tune will void a power train warranty (i.e., also bad premise).
I don't trust dynos unless there is a pretty serious effort at a scientific approach.
Quote from: Rupert on September 23, 2014, 08:23:27 PM
I don't trust dynos unless there is a pretty serious effort at a scientific approach.
All i know is that there's a serious difference between the dynos installed at the manufacturers and the dinky 24 inch roller Mustang dynos used by most tuning shops.
One if the calibration dynos at ford in Allen Park actually sits inside a hyperbaric chamber
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 08:36:03 PM
All i know is that there's a serious difference between the dynos installed at the manufacturers and the dinky 24 inch roller Mustang dynos used by most tuning shops.
One if the calibration dynos at ford in Allen Park actually sits inside a hyperbaric chamber
Or you can use a dynojet that's actually calibrated by dynojet - and reads the same as another one across town.
I'm amused at people who criticize chassis dynos and have never used one themselves.
I've watched the exact same car make two runs within an hour of one another and get results that were 7-8 HP different.
They're good tools, but they shouldn't be worshipped as the supreme and flawless references that some internet bench racers treat them.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 08:36:03 PM
All i know is that there's a serious difference between the dynos installed at the manufacturers and the dinky 24 inch roller Mustang dynos used by most tuning shops.
One if the calibration dynos at ford in Allen Park actually sits inside a hyperbaric chamber
Well, all you should need to show a power change is same atmospheric conditions before and after changes, same other-conditions for the car (same plugs unless you're testing plugs, for example), same dyno-conditions, and a bunch of dyno runs for each before and after (statistically valid sample, seems like n=5 to 10 would be enough).
And I would never trust any dyno outside of the OEM (pretty much) to actually give the real number.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2014, 08:58:30 PM
I've watched the exact same car make two runs within an hour of one another and get results that were 7-8 HP different.
They're good tools, but they shouldn't be worshipped as the supreme and flawless references that some internet bench racers treat them.
Right, on the other hand, a difference of 100 hp is pretty clear (unless there are some huge methodology mistakes).
Quote from: Rupert on September 23, 2014, 08:23:27 PM
I don't trust dynos unless there is a pretty serious effort at a scientific approach.
They can be trusted, just not trusted to reliably discern 5 or 10 hp, or anything close to that.
Quote from: Char on September 23, 2014, 08:53:35 PM
Or you can use a dynojet that's actually calibrated by dynojet - and reads the same as another one across town.
I'm amused at people who criticize chassis dynos and have never used one themselves.
Does it help if one has designed a chassis dyno?
Simply peruse the chassis dyno results of the SAE-rated Ford Raptor with the 411 hp 6.2L vs. the SAE-rated 2011 Mustang GT with the 412 hp 5.0L. There is typically a wide variation between the two despite the fact that actual engine output is identical (there is also a fairly wide variation of the same car on different chassis dynos).
Chassis dynos suck for absolute accuracy because they don't actually measure torque (or most don't). They measure acceleration of a drum and convert that to power and torque. The issue as demonstrated by the Raptor vs. Mustang is the typical chassis dyno cannot measure drive train inertia and efficiency so when there is a large difference (Raptor will have beefier gears, axle, tranny, wheels and t-case) it throws off accuracy.
Chassis dyons are better for relative measurements but the only real way to use them effectively is do not unbolt the car from the dyno between upgrades/changes as differences in tie down force, tire pressure, diff fluid temp, atmo conditions, etc., will muck with results a fair amount. Even then, you will not reliably discern 5 hp.
Obviously chassis dynos are better than butt dynos but trying to tout a 5 hp gain because of an air filter or KASSY is :facepalm:. The only dyno that counts is an engine dyno, or a highly engineered chassis dyno which will be built for a single use application (which you will NOT see at Jim Bob's Tuning Shop).
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:12:54 PM
They can be trusted, just not trusted to reliably discern 5 or 10 hp, or anything close to that.
Right. Like I later explained, never trust someone's posted dyno numbers on the internet (for reasons other than the dyno itself, as well as the dyno itself), but careful relative measurement can be fine.
5-10 hp gains are useless anyway.
So is this autocross challenge gonna happen?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 09:21:19 PM
Does it help if one has designed a chassis dyno?
Simply peruse the chassis dyno results of the SAE-rated Ford Raptor with the 411 hp 6.2L vs. the SAE-rated 2011 Mustang GT with the 412 hp 5.0L. There is typically a wide variation between the two despite the fact that actual engine output is identical (there is also a fairly wide variation of the same car on different chassis dynos).
Chassis dynos suck for absolute accuracy because they don't actually measure torque (or most don't). They measure acceleration of a drum and convert that to power and torque. The issue as demonstrated by the Raptor vs. Mustang is the typical chassis dyno cannot measure drive train inertia and efficiency so when there is a large difference (Raptor will have beefier gears, axle, tranny, wheels and t-case) it throws off accuracy.
Chassis dyons are better for relative measurements but the only real way to use them effectively is do not unbolt the car from the dyno between upgrades/changes as differences in tie down force, tire pressure, diff fluid temp, atmo conditions, etc., will muck with results a fair amount. Even then, you will not reliably discern 5 hp.
Obviously chassis dynos are better than butt dynos but trying to tout a 5 hp gain because of an air filter or KASSY is :facepalm:. The only dyno that counts is an engine dyno, or a highly engineered chassis dyno which will be built for a single use application (which you will NOT see at Jim Bob's Tuning Shop).
Again, how many dynos have you been on, have you used personally?
Quote from: Char on September 24, 2014, 01:55:22 AM
Again, how many dynos have you been on, have you used personally?
What does this even mean? If I've designed it I've used it, and it was a manifold more accurate than sucky roller-based chassis dyno.
Chassis dynos can be okay if they're used properly but justifying $200 spent on KASSY ain't one of them.
Chassis dynos are good for looking at powerband changes. I.e. an intake will usually be good for some HPs up top. A "chip" or dyno tune smoothing out A/F ratios and ignition timing will take the lumps out of a dyno etc. Drivetrain losses are generally pretty linear and won't make for weird lumps or drops in power at ends of the powerband.
I still think we need to discuss how OEM exhausts cannot be improved upon for making power though. Cougs was your degree ABET accredited? How did they give you a degree w/o a class in fluid dynamics?
Chassis dynos are awful for "power band changes." Simply peruse the many stock charts for peak power and torque RPM points that are way different than stock.
No, there is no discussion needed about OEM exhaust, just as there is no discussion needed about CAI, grounding kits, or bigger spark plug wires, or w/e.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 08:48:00 AM
No, there is no discussion needed about OEM exhaust, just as there is no discussion needed about CAI, grounding kits, or bigger spark plug wires, or w/e.
-1
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 08:48:00 AM
No, there is no discussion needed about OEM exhaust, just as there is no discussion needed about CAI, grounding kits, or bigger spark plug wires, or w/e.
Sure there is. A stamped, crush bent exhaust with various resonators and baffled mufflers will not flow like anything closer to an open parabolic diffuser. There have been extensive flow and engine dyno tests that prove this.
Cold air intakes have been proven to be effective as well.... documented through logs from data channels through OBDII scanners.
I have changed ground wires 3 times- not for more power, but because on my old Accords the starter to ground cable was so gunked with corrosion I would have trouble starting the car. Again though, testing has shown the effectiveness of these kits- a simple before/after of voltage drops at various points shows the effectiveness. "My gauges were brighter"
Similarly various folks with extensive experience drag racing have seen consistent E.T. drops at the drag strip with the install of various bolt ons. So yea, even without a chassis dyno there's proof that various bolt ons actually work.
Don't forget about "forever" oil, no discussion there either.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2014, 02:37:50 PM
Circa 1975 sure; automakers had to smog up motors but in modern times there's simply too much $$$ spent on powertrain development to botch exhaust (or intake or air filter or w/e ricer add-on du jour).
So if you take a car and exchange the loggy-with-a-honeycomb manifolds out for standard log manifolds, much less something with runners, you'll see zero difference. Oooookay.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 24, 2014, 01:19:24 PM
So if you take a car and exchange the loggy-with-a-honeycomb manifolds out for standard log manifolds, much less something with runners, you'll see zero difference. Oooookay.
Stamped choppy flow exhausts are perfect for performance, thats why you see that cheap choked up shit in all levels of motorsport. Catalytic converters choking up the exhaust stream are great too, they love them in F1. Same with single throttle bodies- why minimize pressure drop from atmosphere to the valves when you can create a huge vacuum box and introduce more pumping losses with 1 single throttle body far far away from the valves? After all 1 throttle body per engine costs way more than 1 throttle body per cylinder...
Etc. etc... Cougs is right, questioning OEMs is a fool's errand, no way the exhaust on something like a $20K Civic is compromised in any way for cost, emissions, noise or any other myriad of factors manufacturers consider in the design of a mass production road legal car.
Stop being sensible, y'all!!!!
This is a lesson you all should have implicitly learned while growing up by running a car on the street with open headers, or more poignantly, dicking around with a 2-stroke motor bike or weed eater without a muffler. Until you've done this you it's hard to understand that it's not about "more flow" or "less restriction" or "no bends" or w/e.
Guys, we've been here before many many times. You're not going to improve upon the performance of a stock motor in a modern car by bolting on this sort of stuff. Forgetting the technical details you all full well know it doesn't cost Ford any more to put a CAI into the Mustang GT than the current air box, or for GM to put in "less restrictive" mufflers on the Camaro SS.
Lastly, you all full well know that choked hp = less mpg, and no auto maker is gonna botch an air filter box or exhaust and cost themselves ever precious mpg.
(http://www.z1motorsports.com/imageGallery/main.php/d/146789-1/Z1Z34400hpPKvsStock.jpg)
Stock vs useless aftermarket parts like intake, header, testpipe and an ECU tune.
Is that over 60whp, or is my math wrong?
So they pushed redline to 8k on stock internals?
Will that hold up? I can't believe the motor would make power that high without a different cam or degreeing.
Do you work for z1?
Do I have to buy parts from someone else now?
Quote from: Char on September 24, 2014, 03:13:07 PM
(http://www.z1motorsports.com/imageGallery/main.php/d/146789-1/Z1Z34400hpPKvsStock.jpg)
Stock vs useless aftermarket parts like intake, header, testpipe and an ECU tune.
Is that over 60whp, or is my math wrong?
Yes, your math is wrong - HP jumps 70 hp not 60. But your Internetry is broken too. Forget the tech details, I can reeducate you with simple Socratic logic:
First, is a "tune" is not a bolt on?
Second, why doesn't the VQ37 come from the factory with an 8,000 rpm red line?
Third, why does a "tune" void an engine warranty?
Fourth, why don't you question the consistent ~50 lb-ft difference between the two torque curves across all shown RPM?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 24, 2014, 03:34:38 PM
So they pushed redline to 8k on stock internals?
Will that hold up? I can't believe the motor would make power that high without a different cam or degreeing.
Do you work for z1?
Do I have to buy parts from someone else now?
I call shins on that dyno, particularly the constant 50 lb-ft difference between the two torque curves.
Further, in going from the 306 hp 3.5L to the 328 hp 3.7L, Nissan added displacement, VVL, higher compression ratio, shorty headers, higher flowing heads and new cams.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 04:14:37 PM
higher flowing heads
No such thing, first heads were perfect
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 02:55:12 PM
Guys, we've been here before many many times. You're not going to improve upon the performance of a stock motor in a modern car by bolting on this sort of stuff. Forgetting the technical details you all full well know it doesn't cost Ford any more to put a CAI into the Mustang GT than the current air box, or for GM to put in "less restrictive" mufflers on the Camaro SS.
Hey Cougs, pop quiz
What's easier for gas to flow through... a baffled chamber or a straight pipe
Hey Cougs, bonus question
If OEM configurations are the most powerful why do race teams change parts out
Hey Cougs, rhetorical question
What effect do govt regulations have on powertrain design for road legal cars
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 24, 2014, 03:34:38 PM
So they pushed redline to 8k on stock internals?
Yes, actually quite common on the VHR/HR motors.
Will that hold up? I can't believe the motor would make power that high without a different cam or degreeing.
I haven't seen any blown motors as a result. No, cams aren't needed (the intake cam have variable lift, and both cams have variable timing, which is adjusted in the tune
Do you work for z1?
No.
Do I have to buy parts from someone else now?
The whole package is about $1400 from Z1 now, but I would do a different set of headers and intakes compared to what they offer.
.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 03:56:17 PM
Yes, your math is wrong - HP jumps 70 hp not 60. But your Internetry is broken too. Forget the tech details, I can reeducate you with simple Socratic logic:
I knew it was 70, but over 60hp just sounds more meaningful.
First, is a "tune" is not a bolt on?
No, it's not a physical part that is bolted on to the car.
Second, why doesn't the VQ37 come from the factory with an 8,000 rpm red line?
Long term wear and the fact that it doesn't make much power above 7500 in factory tune
Third, why does a "tune" void an engine warranty?
Says who?
Fourth, why don't you question the consistent ~50 lb-ft difference between the two torque curves across all shown RPM?
Why would I question that?
βeta :wanker:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 24, 2014, 04:37:00 PM
No such thing, first heads were perfect
Why would automakers spend millions putting kinks in the intake ports?
Cougs once again achieves the seemingly impossible. Char and Sporty are now on the same side of the ongoing argument here!
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 24, 2014, 06:19:14 PM
Cougs once again achieves the seemingly impossible. Char and Sporty are now on the same side of the ongoing argument here!
He's all about bringing unity.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 24, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
Why would automakers spend millions putting kinks in the intake ports?
I dunno. I know the SHO engine had funky intake ports because the longer ones were "tuned" to be the right length for the cylinders on the other side of the engine for low RPMs, then over around 3-4k RPMs the short ones opened up via butterfly valve for more air to the cylinder on the nearside.
(http://www.newcougar.org/forums/attachments/3-0l-duratec-performance/32406d1203533206-2001-taurus-w-2004-cams-engine-sho_taurus_engine.jpg)
Also engineering figured out the right length for that crosspiece on the end for optimal airflow, yes it's hollow and has a sensor. (Intake and throttle body are on the rightside of this image, which is the driver's side of the car.)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 24, 2014, 06:35:46 PM
I dunno. I know the SHO engine had funky intake ports because the longer ones were "tuned" to be the right length for the cylinders on the other side of the engine for low RPMs, then over around 3-4k RPMs the short ones opened up via butterfly valve for more air to the cylinder on the nearside.
(http://www.newcougar.org/forums/attachments/3-0l-duratec-performance/32406d1203533206-2001-taurus-w-2004-cams-engine-sho_taurus_engine.jpg)
Also engineering figured out the right length for that crosspiece on the end for optimal airflow, yes it's hollow and has a sensor. (Intake and throttle body are on the rightside of this image, which is the driver's side of the car.)
Variable intake manifold. My car has it.
So here it is, in all of it's dirty glory:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2il1mhl.jpg)
(Pre LCI)E90 328i 6 Speed ZSP
Interior shot -(Same as mine - Aluminum trim, but no ZHP knob and I'm too lazy to take pictures)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/11rswtx.png)
Stock engine bay (dyno testing the car)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/amcv9i.png)
Intake testing
(http://i60.tinypic.com/6pntj8.png)
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 24, 2014, 06:28:02 PM
He's all about bringing unity.
My Internetry knows no bounds.
Ha, ha. BMW owner. How fitting.
Axe the CAI though bro. Enjoy the car for what it is. If you want more performance buck up to a 330i or 335i.
Funny enough CAI usually suck the air closer to the engine, in other words, warmer air than the OEM intake brings, many OEM intakes come from the fender air....
(And I totally most CAI are dumb.)
The intakes tested: modified stock intake box, Injen short ram (tube style), AFE SI sealed intake box
(http://i60.tinypic.com/6pntj8.png)
What we did -
Tested the car completely stock out of the box
Tested the car with a tune (also received a revised tune, but not dyno tested)
Tested the car with the intakes - AFE SI gained the most power
(http://i59.tinypic.com/f41yyq.png)
Car now has Euro OEM intake box (higher volume, no charcoal filter, K&N filter) and OEM 3 stage intake manifold (330i, 130i, Z4si) and Updated tune
(http://i60.tinypic.com/25u2mi9.jpg)
On top of the engine cover is a part of the Dinan intake, basically a DIY E90 M3 intake duct and tubing. I'll get around to it this month, but it's not made for the Euro Intake box, so it will take some work.
Dinan intake process (not me, but it's why I haven't started yet)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2vs3u2t.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2cse355.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/27xqyxj.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2eati05.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/etza7a.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/iz6w7a.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/1072ypx.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/30uu9eu.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2n7gp48.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/6qw2lt.jpg)
E90 M3 intake
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2ld94wg.jpg)
Euro intake box vs USDM intake box
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2vafmrq.png)
You can clearly see the Euro intake box is larger, and the filter has more surface area - it also doesn't include the stupid charcoal filter inside. It will be adapted to use the Dinan Intake tubing.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2q1gx7n.jpg)
Car is currently waiting for new coilpacks and an eccentric shaft sensor (which controls the valvetronic system) to be rerun on the dyno. Hoping for an additional 10-20wtq and 10-15whp from the 3 stage intake manifold and tune.
A lot of work for no gain. But I'm sure it will sound different.
Also not pictured:
BMW Style 161 wheels 8.5" rear and 8.5" front for a sqaure setup. Currently running 225/255 Tires (will be square setup) Intake scoops (Have no idea if they work, but they look cool)
Looks like this
(http://www.e92-lighting.com/images/rpi.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 08:15:04 PM
A lot of work for no gain. But I'm sure it will sound different.
Rrrriiiigghhhht, so BMW just made the 3 stage intake manifold for no reason. Sounds legit.
Automatic and AWD (I'm RWD and manual)
(http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q409/viper81156/Dyno%20Thread/Desi4life10DynoThread.jpg)
Every build needs a goal (or should have one)
-235-245whp/220wtq+
-Keep fuel economy the same (currently mid to high 20s in the city and low 30s on the highway)
-Mid to low 14s in the 1/4mile
-Able to lap competitively with decently prepped E46 330i/ZHP cars
-Be completely streetable and drivable by anyone. (No strage noises or smells, no harsh impacts from the suspension)
Installing the 3 stage intake manifold. Pretty straight forward and easy - you'll need new gaskets and make sure the DISA valves (which are responsible for changing the chamber volume) are in good shape if you buy used.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2afen9s.jpg)
Water pump preventative maintence -
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/LuckyStrike24/Sam%20N52%20Water%20Pump%20Thermostat%20328i/20140918_082349.jpg)
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/LuckyStrike24/Sam%20N52%20Water%20Pump%20Thermostat%20328i/20140918_083346.jpg)
True to BMW fashion, there is an oil leak
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/LuckyStrike24/Sam%20N52%20Water%20Pump%20Thermostat%20328i/20140918_110423.jpg)
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/LuckyStrike24/Sam%20N52%20Water%20Pump%20Thermostat%20328i/20140918_110413.jpg)
What's planned next?
Eccentric shaft and Coil packs need to be replaced
Redyno the car with the newest updated tune
ZHP shift knob
Install the Dinan intake
BMW peformance black out grill (mine is OEM silver, I hate it)
N55 335is Engine mounts
Rogue Engineering/E46 M3 Transmission mounts
Nice to see pics. Very clean. Wouldn't have thought the V8's intake would fit, I'd have guessed an E46 M3 intake would have been an easier fit.
I think going with a square setup for the wheels/tires makes a lot of sense. It will make the car a lot more balanced and less understeery.
Regarding the engine mods apart from any power gains I guess they make for a nicer engine sound, which on the N/A six is already very nice.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2014, 07:49:33 PM
Ha, ha. BMW owner. How fitting.
Ahem.
Did you replace the water pump with a stock new one? IIRC there are aftermarket ones with metal impellers that are supposed to last longer.
:facepalm:
Quote from: Char on September 24, 2014, 08:25:33 PM
Every build needs a goal (or should have one)
-235-245whp/220wtq+
-Keep fuel economy the same (currently mid to high 20s in the city and low 30s on the highway)
-Mid to low 14s in the 1/4mile
-Able to lap competitively with decently prepped E46 330i/ZHP cars
-Be completely streetable and drivable by anyone. (No strage noises or smells, no harsh impacts from the suspension)
So basically a 335i
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 24, 2014, 08:46:58 PM
So basically a 335i
A 335i is still significantly more powerful. About 40-50 hps to the wheel more.
But this build has its advantages. Not as finicky as the turbo and nice N/A sounds and throttle response.
I called it being an E90 like 6 months ago. I know that powerband. See, I know things.
+1 on getting an x35i though...........
135i with the DCT... hubba hubba.
What is finicky about a stock 335?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 24, 2014, 08:59:08 PM
What is finicky about a stock 335?
The usual you know HPFP, injectors, coils, carbon buildup, so on and so forth.
All bmw's have a "run down" of common problems. I'm sure 335 ownership is no more finicky than any other model.
Well that definitely won't beat me around an autox course. Good thing you ignored the challenge.
335is are shit, and that's why I don't own one. Constant misfire and injector issues, oil leaks, and carbon buildup the N55 fixed a lot of that, but they cost a lot more and long term are questionable.
Unlike the E46 M52/M54 engines, the E90 uses an electronic water pump. $400 for the pump plus 70ish for the thermostat. The job also has to be done below the car, but the cool part is the water pump actually bleeds itself....
DINAN styled thier intake off of the E90 M3, don't know how effective it is.
I wanted a G37 sedan manual, but there were none around on my price range when I was looking.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 24, 2014, 07:55:33 PM
Funny enough CAI usually suck the air closer to the engine, in other words, warmer air than the OEM intake brings, many OEM intakes come from the fender air....
(And I totally most CAI are dumb.)
I've heard that argument again and again, but my gut feeling is that at any decent speed, air is moving around in the engine bay way too quickly for it to get hotter in one area than in another.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 24, 2014, 08:58:30 PM
I called it being an E90 like 6 months ago. I know that powerband. See, I know things.
+1 on getting an x35i though...........
135i with the DCT... hubba hubba.
Or you just google image searched his dyno and found it on an E90 forum. :lol:
Also, big LOL on putting any worth in 1 lb/ft differences on a chassis dyno. What do you think that thing is actually calibrated to? Why do different dyno brands give such a HUGE difference in results, but you trust one dyno from one run to another down to the lb-ft? There's a smoothing factor on the whole dyno too, which just throws more inaccuracies into the equation.
Nothing about that intake comparison is remotely statistically significant.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 24, 2014, 11:12:12 PM
I've heard that argument again and again, but my gut feeling is that at any decent speed, air is moving around in the engine bay way too quickly for it to get hotter in one area than in another.
That's my point. CAI is sucking air that has already been past the radiator. OEM usually draws from outside the engine bay altogether...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 04:09:40 AM
That's my point. CAI is sucking air that has already been past the radiator. OEM usually draws from outside the engine bay altogether...
All the air comes from outside the engine bay.
I mean, I get what the argument is, I just don't think it makes much of a difference when you're driving 60 MPH.
I wouldn't have a beef if they called them "massive flow intake". They might allow more air through, for better efficiency, but it is NOT colder air than the OEM.
They are warm air intakes.
And no, air from the fender is not from the engine bay. At least all the fenders I've seen..
Again, if it's as simple as changing the shape of the intake molding, why would OEMs leave out all of these efficiency gains?
The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 02:46:46 AM
Or you just google image searched his dyno and found it on an E90 forum. :lol:
I tried that. No results. But in my perpetual car search I've seen dynos for that car many times. Nothing else has that powerband... except maybe a bolt on TSX :evildude:
And yea I would look at intake manifold pressures and temperatures rather than a dyno
Intake manifold swaps are for more than peak power. I picked up about 20 whp swapping a prelude mani onto my 1st accord. Throttle response was also greatly improved.
I hope char picked that manifold up for cheap tough. The new kit is like $1000
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 06:27:43 AM
Again, if it's as simple as changing the shape of the intake molding, why would OEMs leave out all of these efficiency gains?
Because they aren't looking for maximum power.
There was a thread on one of my forums where a member worked at a company that makes parts for different manufacturers. HE claimed that they had a muliti million dollar project that they were working on, but it was ultimately scrapped because of cost. The manufacturer wanted to lower the manufacturing cost a half of a 1 cent per bolt. Needless to say he wasn't very happy about it (I believe the manufacture was either Hyundai or GM) \\
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 02:59:34 AM
Also, big LOL on putting any worth in 1 lb/ft differences on a chassis dyno. What do you think that thing is actually calibrated to? Why do different dyno brands give such a HUGE difference in results, but you trust one dyno from one run to another down to the lb-ft? There's a smoothing factor on the whole dyno too, which just throws more inaccuracies into the equation.
Nothing about that intake comparison is remotely statistically significant.
If you're looking for peak values, it's only 1lb-ft difference at peak, but depending on the intake (modified stock box being green on that dyno) some make less area under the curve than others. The AFE was the clear winner of all the intakes - more peak power, and consistent power gains (we ran all intakes multiple times) The Injen intake (red) was the worst, even though it had the best mid range, it lost power ever single run after the first due to rising intake temperatures.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 24, 2014, 11:12:12 PM
I've heard that argument again and again, but my gut feeling is that at any decent speed, air is moving around in the engine bay way too quickly for it to get hotter in one area than in another.
Yes and no - There was a test on another car (E46) and found that when the car was stopped and idling, the intake temps shot up. This could cause a slight loss of power when your staging at the track, due to IAT sensor reading these higher temps. Intakes that gather their air from the front of the car and/or the bottom absolutely show lower air tempetures compared to gathering air in the engine bay - even while the car was moving.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 07:06:53 AM
I tried that. No results. But in my perpetual car search I've seen dynos for that car many times. Nothing else has that powerband... except maybe a bolt on TSX :evildude:
And yea I would look at intake manifold pressures and temperatures rather than a dyno
Intake manifold swaps are for more than peak power. I picked up about 20 whp swapping a prelude mani onto my 1st accord. Throttle response was also greatly improved.
I hope char picked that manifold up for cheap tough. The new kit is like $1000
You couldn't have searched the images - I purposely changed the hosting site to make it more difficult to find.
I figured you would have scrambled its tracks. Again though it's pretty obviously an N52 power band.... all the Japanese NA 6s have rounder torque curves and DOHC VTEC motors almost always have either a VTEC spike or two humps for each cam profile. E90 330i torque rating is like 225lb-ft from 1800-5000 or something like that.
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 07:37:01 AM
Because they aren't looking for maximum power.
There was a thread on one of my forums where a member worked at a company that makes parts for different manufacturers. HE claimed that they had a muliti million dollar project that they were working on, but it was ultimately scrapped because of cost. The manufacturer wanted to lower the manufacturing cost a half of a 1 cent per bolt. Needless to say he wasn't very happy about it (I believe the manufacture was either Hyundai or GM)
I work for a big suspension supplier. I used to do the vast majority of the business cases for $1b/year interior supplier. I understand these things.
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 07:37:01 AM
If you're looking for peak values, it's only 1lb-ft difference at peak, but depending on the intake (modified stock box being green on that dyno) some make less area under the curve than others. The AFE was the clear winner of all the intakes - more peak power, and consistent power gains (we ran all intakes multiple times) The Injen intake (red) was the worst, even though it had the best mid range, it lost power ever single run after the first due to rising intake temperatures.
You've missed the point entirely. What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used? Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment? Are the readings repeatable? Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?
That information isn't close to being statistically significant. I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data. And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc. And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 07:53:10 AM
And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?
Joe just has to print out a number (graph) higher than the last one. ;)
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 07:53:10 AM
I work for a big suspension supplier. I used to do the vast majority of the business cases for $1b/year interior supplier. I understand these things.
You've missed the point entirely. What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used? Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment? Are the readings repeatable? Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?
That information isn't close to being statistically significant. I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data. And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc. And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?
Yes. I'm not looking for "accuracy" though, I'm looking for precision - how often the dyno will measure the same result over time. The dyno figures I posted have been replicated on another dyno across town.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 07:41:50 AM
I figured you would have scrambled its tracks. Again though it's pretty obviously an N52 power band.... all the Japanese NA 6s have rounder torque curves and DOHC VTEC motors almost always have either a VTEC spike or two humps for each cam profile. E90 330i torque rating is like 225lb-ft from 1800-5000 or something like that.
Could have been a J30 from an Accord
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/JiggaJatt/scan0002.jpg)
1 lb/ft gains are useless IRL.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 06:25:25 AM
I wouldn't have a beef if they called them "massive flow intake". They might allow more air through, for better efficiency, but it is NOT colder air than the OEM.
They are warm air intakes.
And no, air from the fender is not from the engine bay. At least all the fenders I've seen..
Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a CAI comparison test a few years ago and measured incoming air temp for each one, and depending on the design and where the CAI took the air from, air temperature most certainly does improve.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 06:57:15 AM
The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.
No. They design it the intake air box to be quiet.
Quote from: SVT666 on September 25, 2014, 10:05:31 AM
No. They design it the intake air box to be quiet.
Ok. That I can totally understand.
Why do the
vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?
Quote from: SVT666 on September 25, 2014, 10:04:30 AM
Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a CAI comparison test a few years ago and measured incoming air temp for each one, and depending on the design and where the CAI took the air from, air temperature most certainly does improve.
Improve from what?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 10:35:43 AM
Ok. That I can totally understand.
Why do the vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?
None of my cars did. Grills or behind the headlight, only the aftermarket intakes take it from the fender area. Hydrolock is a concern.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 10:35:43 AM
Ok. That I can totally understand.
Why do the vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?
Most cars, at best, pull air from just in front of the radiator. That's at best, and again is to prevent hydrolock.
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 10:46:38 AM
None of my cars did. Grills or behind the headlight, only the aftermarket intakes take it from the fender area. Hydrolock is a concern.
You're wrong. Most air boxes take air from the fender. This is the snorkel from the airbox of a 1996 Mustang GT. It draws air from inside the fender.
(http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/Mustang1995GT/Silencer.jpg)
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
Yes. I'm not looking for "accuracy" though, I'm looking for precision - how often the dyno will measure the same result over time. The dyno figures I posted have been replicated on another dyno across town.
:rolleyes: Yes, I know that.
And another data point on another dyno does not make it valid. You're outta your league man. Stick to trollin forums instead :lol:
Quote from: SVT666 on September 25, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
You're wrong. Most air boxes take air from the fender. This is the snorkel from the airbox of a 1996 Mustang GT. It draws air from inside the fender.
(http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/Mustang1995GT/Silencer.jpg)
:facepalm:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 06:57:15 AM
The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.
(http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/boss-302-v8-wards-best-engines.jpg)
Stock vs WMS Intake
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s227/Harek05/5172008/newpics086.jpg)
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
Who is arguing that?
So you spent how much just to get slightly lower intake temps when staging at a track?
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 25, 2014, 11:13:17 AM
So you spent how much just to get slightly lower intake temps when staging at a track?
$150 for 4/whp-tq. I'm happy about it.
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 11:08:10 AM
:rolleyes: Yes, I know that.
And another data point on another dyno does not make it valid. You're outta your league man. Stick to trollin forums instead :lol:
No you didn't, which is why I had to correct you. Who are you again?
LOL IF the dyno is accurate/precise, 4whp-tq could be gained because got gas somewhere else or it's a few degrees warmer/cooler or the tires were inflated a few psi different etc...
On this one I agree with Cougs- leaving it strapped to the dyno and making the changes then immediately run it again is the most accurate you'd get. Anything under 5-10hp is probably EDIT: could be margin of error.
What a great community.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 12:01:48 PM
LOL IF the dyno is accurate/precise, 4whp-tq could be gained because got gas somewhere else or it's a few degrees warmer/cooler or the tires were inflated a few psi different etc...
On this one I agree with Cougs- leaving it strapped to the dyno and making the changes then immediately run it again is the most accurate you'd get. Anything under 5-10hp is probably EDIT: could be margin of error.
Car wasn't removed for testing. Go on, tell me more about how you have never used a dyno.
Quote from: MrH on September 25, 2014, 07:53:10 AM
You've missed the point entirely. What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used? Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment? Are the readings repeatable? Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?
That information isn't close to being statistically significant. I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data. And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc. And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?
Also let's not forget accuracy of a validated measurement system is measured in % of full scale; for example 3% full scale of 1,000 lb-ft so if measuring 200 lb-ft peak that is 200 lb-ft +/- 30 lb-ft (note I'm making these numbers up but it's gonna be something along those lines).
Chassis dynos can be okay for big measurements or a quick succession of relative measurements during a tuning session (as in messing around with the jets in a carb or ignition timing or w/e) whereby variation (such as atmo conditions, tie down tension, tire pressure, diff oil temp, etc., are minimized by leaving the car on the dyno) but even then precision is highly unlikely to pick up anything less than 5-10 hp.
Any third party proof that things like tie down tension or diff oil temp make a difference on a dyno though?
Dynos correct for differing atmospheric conditions.
So, this thread is about modding a slow, poverty bimmer for 5hp. How is this not beta?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 12:29:33 PM
Any third party proof that things like tie down tension or diff oil temp make a difference on a dyno though?
Dynos correct for differing atmospheric conditions.
One does not need proof other than the ginormous variation in factory stock cars with SAE rating (the 412hp Mustang GT dynos anywhere from 340 to 395 hp)
All those things have variability and all those things will affect torque. Even the gear used will affect torque.
"Correct" is a misnomer. It will approximate.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 12:29:33 PM
Any third party proof that things like tie down tension or diff oil temp make a difference on a dyno though?
Dynos correct for differing atmospheric conditions.
Not really, no. There are correction factors applied to the number the dyno produces. Those factors employ a number of assumptions, and the biggest one is that the engine maintains the same volumetric efficiency at different altitudes, and that it does so correctly and accurately.
They're good tools, but they're not perfect tools.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2014, 12:25:11 PM
Also let's not forget accuracy of a validated measurement system is measured in % of full scale; for example 3% full scale of 1,000 lb-ft so if measuring 200 lb-ft peak that is 200 lb-ft +/- 30 lb-ft (note I'm making these numbers up but it's gonna be something along those lines).
Chassis dynos can be okay for big measurements or a quick succession of relative measurements during a tuning session (as in messing around with the jets in a carb or ignition timing or w/e) whereby variation (such as atmo conditions, tie down tension, tire pressure, diff oil temp, etc., are minimized by leaving the car on the dyno) but even then precision is highly unlikely to pick up anything less than 5-10 hp.
Says who? I'm not looking for accuracy - I'm looking for precision. Different shops, on different days were able to replicate the same results. I don't care if it read that my car had 150hp vs 220hp, as long as there is repeatable results, I'm happy.
You went to two different shops just to make sure your CAI is barely worth it?
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 25, 2014, 02:12:37 PM
You went to two different shops just to make sure your CAI is barely worth it?
Who said I did that? Not that I have to explain myself to you (or anyone)
1. Dyno the car stock
2. Dyno the car with a tune
3. Dyno the car with different intakes to see which is the most effective
4. Charity event dyno day (different dyno)
5. Intake manifold dyno
My dyno time is cheap.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2014, 01:29:17 PM
One does not need proof other than the ginormous variation in factory stock cars with SAE rating (the 412hp Mustang GT dynos anywhere from 340 to 395 hp)
How do we know whether that variance is due to the cars, or the dynos? ;)
That'd be pretty shoddy manufacturing if the engines had that much power variance.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 02:50:11 PM
How do we know whether that variance is due to the cars, or the dynos? ;)
It depends on the dyno. Some dynos, like a dyno dynamics, absolutely read lower compared to a dynojet like I use. I'd say the most "accurate" is a dynapack dyno, as it bolts directly to the hubs.
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 02:07:00 PM
Says who? I'm not looking for accuracy - I'm looking for precision. Different shops, on different days were able to replicate the same results. I don't care if it read that my car had 150hp vs 220hp, as long as there is repeatable results, I'm happy.
I understand. Repeatability isn't going to be anything better than 5-10 hp.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 02:50:11 PM
How do we know whether that variance is due to the cars, or the dynos? ;)
There's variance everywhere. The car (atmo conditions, tire pressure, etc.), the setup (tie down tension, the gear, etc.) and even the dyno itself (set up factors).
Quote from: mzziaz on September 25, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
So, this thread is about modding a slow, poverty bimmer for 5hp. How is this not beta?
:huh:
I'm just here for the ultra entertainment. :popcorn:
While some customizations I really dig, the majority of rice I don't care for- and about the only thing worse is sauerkraut... :lol:
I don't understand what is being built here.
Mostly ego, but it looks like we're still in the tear down phase.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 25, 2014, 04:52:25 PM
I don't understand what is being built here.
OP is taking a 528 and going balls out, turning the dial right past 10 to at least 10.0897.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2014, 04:30:56 PM
There's variance everywhere. The car (atmo conditions, tire pressure, etc.), the setup (tie down tension, the gear, etc.) and even the dyno itself (set up factors).
Nah. If chassis dynos were so useless and cars could vary in power by 10-15% and be considered "in range", Ford wouldn't have been forced to eat crow and make changes after the fact on the '99 Cobra.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang4.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang4.htm)
QuoteAfter fielding a few dozen owner complaints, mostly from drag racers, Ford recalled all 1999 SVT Cobras on the ground to replace the manifold or ream out the existing one. Ford also charged nothing to replace mufflers (found to be too restrictive), recalibrate the engine computer, and substitute a more durable accessory-belt tensioner. A decal was affixed in the engine bay to certify the work once it was done.
Huh, imagine that. :hmm: An OEM got it wrong and had to derestrict mufflers (among other parts) to net more horsepower. Whoda thunk it? Why would a muffler have restrictions in the first place.... I thought HP trumped all for OEMs.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 05:17:15 PM
Whoda thunk it? Why would a muffler have restrictions in the first place....
fake
animals
bollocks
:lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 25, 2014, 05:17:15 PM
Nah. If chassis dynos were so useless and cars could vary in power by 10-15% and be considered "in range", Ford wouldn't have been forced to eat crow and make changes after the fact on the '99 Cobra.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang4.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-2004-ford-mustang4.htm)
Huh, imagine that. :hmm: An OEM got it wrong and had to derestrict mufflers (among other parts) to net more horsepower. Whoda thunk it? Why would a muffler have restrictions in the first place.... I thought HP trumped all for OEMs.
In the end, it is still OEM.
Fast fact: No aftermarket part can beat OEM.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 25, 2014, 05:04:41 PM
OP is taking a 528 and going balls out, turning the dial right past 10 to at least 10.0897.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 25, 2014, 05:21:12 PM
fake
animals
bollocks
:lol:
http://www.neuticles.com (http://www.neuticles.com)
?
None of that makes since. Ford botching some manufacturing processes isn't related to what a chassis dyno can or can't do.
If made to spec no SAE-rated engine is gonna have variance of 10-15% in power - more like 1-3 hp.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 25, 2014, 05:22:26 PM
?
Those are outbursts which are usually used only one at a time, separately, bollocks popped up just yesterday. I used them totally erroneously....
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2014, 05:26:08 PM
None of that makes since. Ford botching some manufacturing processes isn't related to what a chassis dyno can or can't do.
If made to spec no SAE-rated engine is gonna have variance of 10-15% in power - more like 1-3 hp.
So the Rustang GT's 55WHP/16% variance on chassis dynos is due to tire pressures and diff oil temps? You aren't making any 'since'.
Current Civics (and possibly other Hondas) don't even have exhaust manifolds any more. They have a rectangular downspout looking thing because the exhaust runners are cast into the head. Now that's Cougs-level unfuckwithability.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 25, 2014, 10:51:47 PM
Current Civics (and possibly other Hondas) don't even have exhaust manifolds any more. They have a rectangular downspout looking thing because the exhaust runners are cast into the head. Now that's Cougs-level unfuckwithability.
Just like the middle exhaust ports on a flathead Ford!
Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 25, 2014, 10:51:47 PM
Current Civics (and possibly other Hondas) don't even have exhaust manifolds any more. They have a rectangular downspout looking thing because the exhaust runners are cast into the head. Now that's Cougs-level unfuckwithability.
Yea, Honda ruined the K series with that bullshit around 2008. So all the Accords & Civic Si's from like 2009-2010 on have that bullshit. Only thing it's good for is turbocharging. It's a cast in log manifold
Quote from: Char on September 25, 2014, 11:21:52 AM
No you didn't, which is why I had to correct you. Who are you again?
Somebody who understands this a whole lot better than you.
Show me a calibration certificate and a gage R&R. Then we can start talking the validity of this data.
Quote from: MrH on September 26, 2014, 07:02:05 AM
Somebody who understands this a whole lot better than you.
Show me a calibration certificate and a gage R&R. Then we can start talking the validity of this data.
I'm not claiming to have any of that, nor am I claiming that they are the pinnacle of accurate. If you can prove to the contrary (and I know you can't or you would have) I'd pay attention. So far, I had to teach you the difference between accuracy and precision.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on September 25, 2014, 10:51:47 PM
Current Civics (and possibly other Hondas) don't even have exhaust manifolds any more. They have a rectangular downspout looking thing because the exhaust runners are cast into the head. Now that's Cougs-level unfuckwithability.
Their V6s are the same way.
I can only image a VTEC motor being that much more highly tuned from the factory (i.e., any sort of bolt on - CAI, exhaust, w/e - could be a detriment).
If bolt-ons had no effect on horsepower and any effect observed was a result of simple margin of error in the measuring device, wouldn't we expect somewhere around 50% of bolt-ons dynos to produce readings below stock output?
I mean I'm not a fancy-schmancy engineer, but it would appear statistically impossible for the hundreds of thousands if not millions of these things to all have produced the same ~5 hp bump over stock as the result of a margin of error. That'd be like dropping a pencil from the Empire State Building and having it land perfectly vertical.
Quote from: Tave on September 26, 2014, 09:56:27 AM
That'd be like dropping a pencil from the Empire State Building and having it land perfectly vertical.
multiple times
Quote from: Char on September 26, 2014, 08:39:57 AM
I'm not claiming to have any of that, nor am I claiming that they are the pinnacle of accurate. If you can prove to the contrary (and I know you can't or you would have) I'd pay attention. So far, I had to teach you the difference between accuracy and precision.
The onus is on you to produce the cert; he can't prove the cert doesn't exist. (Even if it did exist it'd have to have all sorts of caveats many of which many aren't followed.)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 26, 2014, 09:49:53 AM
Their V6s are the same way.
I can only image a VTEC motor being that much more highly tuned from the factory (i.e., any sort of bolt on - CAI, exhaust, w/e - could be a detriment).
I would wager that it's simply cheaper for them to cast the runners into the head.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 26, 2014, 09:49:53 AM
Their V6s are the same way.
I can only image a VTEC motor being that much more highly tuned from the factory (i.e., any sort of bolt on - CAI, exhaust, w/e - could be a detriment).
Lol. Most VTEC engines are far from "highly tuned". And even the ones that are have yielded gains from bolt ons. It's only once you get up to the limits of what is possible from the ICE (i.e. the 120-125HP/L of the S2000) where bolt ons become tricky, and even then Honda had to leave something on the table for noise, emissions and cost compromises.
Quote from: Tave on September 26, 2014, 09:56:27 AM
If bolt-ons had no effect on horsepower and any effect observed was a result of simple margin of error in the measuring device, wouldn't we expect somewhere around 50% of bolt-ons dynos to produce readings below stock output?
I mean I'm not a fancy-schmancy engineer, but it would appear statistically impossible for the hundreds of thousands if not millions of these things to all have produced the same ~5 hp bump over stock as the result of a margin of error. That'd be like dropping a pencil from the Empire State Building and having it land perfectly vertical.
No, we would not expect such a thing, because "stock" output is an unknown on a chassis dyno. You're also bending the premise - the issue is increase in performance, which isn't always about increases in (peak) hp.
Firstly, there are tons of threads and tests with users no seeing any material gain with various bolts ons (in itself a reverse red herring - just because a chassis dyno says there isn't a gain doesn't mean there isn't).
Second, when mucking with exhaust flow, a gain up top usually results in a loss down low and lesser throttle response if other systems (cam, timing, port design, valves, etc.) aren't addressed, with the net result being a car that isn't any faster. This is why factory exhaust cut-out systems only operate at higher RPMs.
Quote from: MX793 on September 26, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
I would wager that it's simply cheaper for them to cast the runners into the head.
Did I say anything to the contrary ;)?
I'm sure it is, plus it's also less labor to assemble.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 26, 2014, 10:30:28 AM
Second, when mucking with exhaust flow, a gain up top usually results in a loss down low and lesser throttle response if other systems (cam, timing, port design, valves, etc.) aren't addressed, with the net result being a car that isn't any faster. This is why factory exhaust cut-out systems only operate at higher RPMs.
:facepalm:
What next.... "backpressure is a good thing"
And factory cutouts operate at higher RPMs because noise regulation tests only test below a certain RPM (~4500)
Here are some pretty informative posts by a guy who designs exhausts for a living, and did some testing with an engine dyno. No its not NASA grade +/-0.001 HP but all the testing was done on the same day on the same engine. All the stuff you are talking about doesn't jive with his test results
http://my350z.com/forum/intake-exhaust/438890-jic-ti-80mm-ok-for-n-a.html#post7435408 (http://my350z.com/forum/intake-exhaust/438890-jic-ti-80mm-ok-for-n-a.html#post7435408)
TLDR: nothing beyond header secondaries matters aside from minimizing restrictions as much as possible. Only power to be extracted from an N/A exhaust is through scavenging... once exhaust streams merge down to one channel there is no more scavenging that can occur. Only restrictions in flow, which is bad mmkay. OEMs are forced to introduce flow restrictions like mufflers and cheap nasty crush bends because of restrictions like cost and noise regulations.
Yo, bro, I spoke nothing of back pressure and he didn't use an engine dyno (see lower right of charts for "Dynapack Chassis Dynamometer") which to a some extent negates his standing as an expert. I do agree with that post that exhaust system design is vastly more than just improved flow or reduced restriction or bigger pipes or w/e. Also note his initial pipe size test said bigger pipes = little or even negative gains (and as I said previously anyone who has messed around with motor bikes or running an open exhaust knows that that is generally the case, unless other things are done).
Quote from: GoCougs on September 26, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
Yo, bro, I spoke nothing of back pressure and he didn't use an engine dyno (see lower right of charts for "Dynapack Chassis Dynamometer") which to a some extent negates his standing as an expert. I do agree with that post that exhaust system design is vastly more than just improved flow or reduced restriction or bigger pipes or w/e. Also note his initial pipe size test said bigger pipes = little or even negative gains (and as I said previously anyone who has messed around with motor bikes or running an open exhaust knows that that is generally the case, unless other things are done).
Yea, bigger secondary pipes. Once the two sides merge, the setup that yielded the most power was the parabolic diffuser, which is the "biggest pipe" of all (lowest flow restriction; lower than an open pipe even). Once there is no more scavenging to do you just want to move the fluid as quickly/easily as possible, which bigger pipes and less restrictive mufflers do.
Quote from: Char on September 26, 2014, 08:39:57 AM
I'm not claiming to have any of that, nor am I claiming that they are the pinnacle of accurate. If you can prove to the contrary (and I know you can't or you would have) I'd pay attention. So far, I had to teach you the difference between accuracy and precision.
The onus is on me to prove an unknown dyno in god knows where isn't calibrated? :wtf:
I know the difference between accuracy and precision. :facepalm: I was trying to speak in non-engineering terms. If you want me to get technical, I'd be glad to.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 26, 2014, 11:00:37 AM
:facepalm:
What next.... "backpressure is a good thing"
And factory cutouts operate at higher RPMs because noise regulation tests only test below a certain RPM (~4500)
Here are some pretty informative posts by a guy who designs exhausts for a living, and did some testing with an engine dyno. No its not NASA grade +/-0.001 HP but all the testing was done on the same day on the same engine. All the stuff you are talking about doesn't jive with his test results
http://my350z.com/forum/intake-exhaust/438890-jic-ti-80mm-ok-for-n-a.html#post7435408 (http://my350z.com/forum/intake-exhaust/438890-jic-ti-80mm-ok-for-n-a.html#post7435408)
TLDR: nothing beyond header secondaries matters aside from minimizing restrictions as much as possible. Only power to be extracted from an N/A exhaust is through scavenging... once exhaust streams merge down to one channel there is no more scavenging that can occur. Only restrictions in flow, which is bad mmkay. OEMs are forced to introduce flow restrictions like mufflers and cheap nasty crush bends because of restrictions like cost and noise regulations.
Tony from Motordyne is actually a rocket scientist. Seriously.
Quote from: MrH on September 26, 2014, 01:08:00 PM
The onus is on me to prove an unknown dyno in god knows where isn't calibrated? :wtf:
I know the difference between accuracy and precision. :facepalm: I was trying to speak in non-engineering terms. If you want me to get technical, I'd be glad to.
Knock yourself out - you'd still be wrong.
Quote from: Char on September 26, 2014, 01:09:47 PM
Knock yourself out - you'd still be wrong.
Still waiting on that gage R&R. If you can find one on any chassis dyno, I'd love to read it.
Infinite troll feedback loop. :facepalm:
Quote from: Laconian on September 27, 2014, 01:28:29 PM
Infinite troll feedback loop. :facepalm:
Where is the power button?
Ctrl+break
This is a fairly nice setup.
I helped a buddy of mine put a 330i intake manifold on his 325i, as well as a ram air duct intake box, bmw performance exhaust, and bmw performance suspension...
After all that though my gerbil wheel powered car still easily hangs with it in a straight line.
Glad I have the 330Ci. Worth every penny. :lol:
Quote from: r0tor on September 28, 2014, 11:04:09 AM
This is a fairly nice setup.
I helped a buddy of mine put a 330i intake manifold on his 325i, as well as a ram air duct intake box, bmw performance exhaust, and bmw performance suspension...
After all that though my gerbil wheel powered car still easily hangs with it in a straight line.
GLS
Giggled lots silently
Quote from: r0tor on September 28, 2014, 11:04:09 AM
This is a fairly nice setup.
I helped a buddy of mine put a 330i intake manifold on his 325i, as well as a ram air duct intake box, bmw performance exhaust, and bmw performance suspension...
After all that though my gerbil wheel powered car still easily hangs with it in a straight line.
That's because the 325i runs less lift and closes the throttlebody at high RPMs to cut down on power. Without software, he will still will be slower than a 328/330i. The BMW performance stuff does pretty much squat for power too, but they look and sound nice.
325i valve lift vs 330i valve lift
(http://www.325ix.com/pics/2014/S54ix/MSV70/325i%20VVL%2020x20.png)
(http://www.325ix.com/pics/2014/S54ix/MSV70/330i%20VVL%2020x20.png)
The reason given (besides the obvious) is to promote cylinder filling at lower RPMs, and there is still the issue of the throttle body closing early, like so
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29040&stc=1&d=1150666878)
It's down over 30whp on my car stock, and while the manifold is a gainer, but software even more so on the 325i.
So if you can still beat him - congratulations I guess?
Quote from: Char on September 28, 2014, 03:10:39 PM
That's because the 325i runs less lift and closes the throttlebody at high RPMs to cut down on power. Without software, he will still will be slower than a 328/330i. The BMW performance stuff does pretty much squat for power too, but they look and sound nice.
Also has the 330 throttle body and ecu tune... only a moron would go through that trouble and not retune it
So congratulations your bmw can keep up with a na 1.3L?
Quote from: r0tor on September 28, 2014, 04:21:52 PM
So congratulations your bmw can keep up with a na 1.3L?
Sure, I'm guessing your RX8 is a mid 14 second car? That's about where a stock 330i is :huh:
Quote from: r0tor on September 28, 2014, 04:20:58 PM
Also has the 330 throttle body and ecu tune... only a moron would go through that trouble and not retune it
Why? Your friend sounds clueless if he tries to put a 330i TB on a 325i - the part number is the same. Basically, you raced a stock 330i and won, which sounds a bit off, but believable. (mid 90'smph trap speed vs high 80s/low 90s)
Need more sauerkraut for a real build thread
Sorry but not a build... :huh:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Sorry but not a build... :huh:
A 325 built up to be almost as good as my bone stock one?
Dis thread haz good info, i learn much. Thanku for opportunity, i love America. In my country we only have donkey, very much hard to tune donkey. Only man with much money can afford tuned donkey.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 28, 2014, 07:17:45 PM
A 325 built up to be almost as good as my bone stock one?
It's a 328i, and it's already better ;)
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 28, 2014, 07:23:08 PM
Dis thread haz good info, i learn much. Thanku for opportunity, i love America. In my country we only have donkey, very much hard to tune donkey. Only man with much money can afford tuned donkey.
lolololol
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 28, 2014, 07:23:08 PM
Dis thread haz good info, i learn much. Thanku for opportunity, i love America. In my country we only have donkey, very much hard to tune donkey. Only man with much money can afford tuned donkey.
:clap:
You could try a mule, perhaps. I know they are bigger, but I am not sure of the power:weight.
Don't be an ass.
So wats the ETA for the PSS9s and M3 subframe/suspension/brake swap
When are u throwing on some 260Ms
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 29, 2014, 04:59:56 AM
So wats the ETA for the PSS9s and M3 subframe/suspension/brake swap
When are u throwing on some 260Ms
Brakes will likely remain stock with upgrades pads - MAYBE I might spring for the 330i caliper carriers and rotors (which are slightly larger) but I think the stock brakes with proper airflow will be more than adequate.
As for the suspension - the E90 cars share more with the M3 than the E46 cars did - I want to say that BMW claimed that 6% of the parts are shared between the E46 non M and M3 vs something like 60%? and even then most of the parts I want can be retrofit.
M3 Subframe bushing are nice - supposedly. Maybe more for the 335i guys with more power, but for the N/A guys I think it will be the last step (especially considering the labor involved) a few suspension shops and Turner (who races the E90) Suggested the bushings be swapped last after everything is upgraded. For those of you who don't know, the stock non M subframe bushings are weak and deflect a bunch - m3 bushings use more metal and offer more control.
(http://www.treffbilder.de/images/70918823/dscn3423yqu2.jpg)
M3 control arms are also on the list - they offer increased caster and camber, which these cars love. Price isn't bad either.
Pss10s - I would LOVE to buy a set, but at $1900+, I don't think it will ever happen. They also have another problem: They are too low and too soft - neither on is great for a DD or a weekend warrior.
(http://www.treffbilder.de/images/75427291/t0h_5608_1oct2.jpg)
(http://www.treffbilder.de/images/16958001/dng_4041_1wpn2.jpg)
I'll probably end up with Ground Control's kit, including their camber plates.
As for wheels, OEM are just too heavy. I came from owning OZ Superleggera 17X8s that tipped the scales at around 15-16lbs each. Fantastic wheels, and VERY strong. I think I will go in the same direction with these - light and strong
Apex ARC 8
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8176/7901873176_01ebdc40a1_c.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8298/7845550856_cacd571726_b.jpg)
I'm thinking 17X9" Square, the wheels themself are around 16lbs too.
What about just doing a motor swap? A VW 2.0t with some nice bolt ons would really put a little pep in her step.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 29, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
What about just doing a motor swap? A VW 2.0t with some nice bolt ons would really put a little pep in her step.
MOAHR POWER
Sounds like a plan
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 29, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
What about just doing a motor swap? A VW 2.0t with some nice bolt ons would really put a little pep in her step.
I'd rather light my car on fire and push it off a cliff. Pretty much the same thing really.
Seems like it'd just be cheaper/easier to buy a 330i.
Quote from: Char on September 29, 2014, 10:18:12 AM
I'd rather light my car on fire and push it off a cliff. Pretty much the same thing really.
:huh:, just tryin to help. You don't have to be such a meanie.
*sniff*
I just want to be part of things, I'm trying my best.
:cry:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 29, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
Seems like it'd just be cheaper/easier to buy a 330i.
yup
Quote from: GoCougs on September 29, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
Seems like it'd just be cheaper/easier to buy a 330i.
Considered one - too high of miles and first year N52 teething issues. Also, tuned 328i are actually more powerful - so there is that.
I really wanted a G35/G37 sedan - but when I saw the cost of insurance - yeah, the 328i is fine for a few years.
I thought this was an 06 325i
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 29, 2014, 11:48:02 AM
I thought this was an 06 325i
What the hell kind of cryptic shitass thread is this when we're 10 pages in and not even sure what the car is?
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 29, 2014, 12:03:42 PM
What the hell kind of cryptic shitass thread is this when we're 10 pages in and not even sure what the car is?
He has to trickle out information, other wise the direct shock of seeing the greatness would result in the complete shutdown of all automotive forums everywhere.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 29, 2014, 12:13:03 PM
He has to trickle out information, other wise the direct shock of seeing the greatness would result in the complete shutdown of all automotive forums everywhere.
Julian???? Did Julian re-invent himself??????
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 29, 2014, 12:03:42 PM
What the hell kind of cryptic shitass thread is this when we're 10 pages in and not even sure what the car is?
Try page 6.
FYI guys all E90 6 bangers are 3.0L in the US.
So when does the real project car show up.
Surely nobody keeps a lease special BMW 3er a secret for so long.
Engine swap time.
Current engine goes into an old MG, M3 V8 goes into the 328i.
FYI you can buy the M3 arms from TRW direct and save a bundle over BMW. Did this as well on my buddies car while installing the bmw performance suspension and m3 sway bars.
BTW doesnt that CAI duct by the foglight block the factory brake duct?
You got a BMW? I thought you hate German cars!? :confused:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 29, 2014, 06:57:35 PM
You got a BMW? I thought you hate German cars!? :confused:
No, just overly complex German cars with problems caused by over engineering and expensive parts replacement and maintenance issues.
Oh, wait...
Quote from: r0tor on September 29, 2014, 05:35:25 PM
FYI you can buy the M3 arms from TRW direct and save a bundle over BMW. Did this as well on my buddies car while installing the bmw performance suspension and m3 sway bars.
BTW doesnt that CAI duct by the foglight block the factory brake duct?
The TRW stuff just comes with the BMW/ M badges scraped off, but you're right same exact thing. How hard was the installation?
No idea on the Dinan, I hope it doesn't completely cut off the brake cooling duct - that would be disappointing.
Online trying to Order the Ignition Coil refresh kit $315 and $300 for the valvetronic sensor replacement kit. Ugh.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 29, 2014, 08:32:17 PM
No, just overly complex German cars with problems caused by over engineering and expensive parts replacement and maintenance issues.
Oh, wait...
With a BMW, I know what shit storm I'm expecting. With VW, you can't even begin to predict the amount of fuckups you'll have. The 335i is almost to that point - except it's one car and VW is the company as a whole.
After seeing the maintenance my friend has had to do on his M5 I was just like LOL fuck BMW. Then my mom started having all these nightmares with her 7. Fuck BMW's. Give me a VW any day.
Quote from: thecarnut on September 29, 2014, 09:09:43 PM
After seeing the maintenance my friend has had to do on his M5 I was just like LOL fuck BMW. Then my mom started having all these nightmares with her 7. Fuck BMW's. Give me a VW any day.
Lol yeah. I thought it was bad when my friend tried to flip an E46.
But when my coworker popped the hood on his 135i, my immediately reaction: "oh fuck THAT"
That was so crammed in there. Zero room to work on anything. I'd love to get a new M235i...with an extended warranty.
The E46 isn't so bad. It at least has a dipstick.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 29, 2014, 09:27:07 PM
The E46 isn't so bad. It at least has a dipstick.
:golfclap:
The E46 was easy - oil leaks and window regulators. The 335 N54...I have no idea where to start.
Id rather burn oil than leak it... usually oil consumption is not as bad as an oil leak. W/an oil leak an engine can just GO, oil burn the system still has pressure till u get really low.
N54/N55, just make sure the HPFP is replaced, and budget for a walnut blasting every couple of years. And buy an extended warranty and a beater car :)
Oil leaks also cause engine fires.
Quote from: Char on September 29, 2014, 08:47:41 PM
The TRW stuff just comes with the BMW/ M badges scraped off, but you're right same exact thing. How hard was the installation?
No idea on the Dinan, I hope it doesn't completely cut off the brake cooling duct - that would be disappointing.
Online trying to Order the Ignition Coil refresh kit $315 and $300 for the valvetronic sensor replacement kit. Ugh.
Sounds about right, every couple months you have to spend 600-1000 on parts to fix shit. Pretty much any BMW over 50K out of warranty is like that, I fail to see how a 335 would be such a "disaster".
slightly more car for 50% more money
http://carsort.com/compare/BMW-3-Series-vs-Volkswagen-Jetta (http://carsort.com/compare/BMW-3-Series-vs-Volkswagen-Jetta)
first two replies on the Bimmer Forum favor a Jetta
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1653426-bmw-328i-vs-vw-jetta-tdi (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1653426-bmw-328i-vs-vw-jetta-tdi)
(one drove the Sportwagon and bought a Subaru :lol: )
mixed results here
http://www.truedelta.com/BMW-3-Series/reliability-13/vs-Jetta-280 (http://www.truedelta.com/BMW-3-Series/reliability-13/vs-Jetta-280)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2014, 06:07:31 AM
Id rather burn oil than leak it... usually oil consumption is not as bad as an oil leak. W/an oil leak an engine can just GO, oil burn the system still has pressure till u get really low.
N54/N55, just make sure the HPFP is replaced, and budget for a walnut blasting every couple of years. And buy an extended warranty and a beater car :)
N55's don't have carbon buildup and don't have HPFP issues.
Oil leaks are absolutely better than buring oil - for one, the issue is is external can be more easily rectified. If your burning oil, the problem will only get worse and indicates a problem with the rings - good luck on that.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 30, 2014, 07:10:32 AM
Sounds about right, every couple months you have to spend 600-1000 on parts to fix shit. Pretty much any BMW over 50K out of warranty is like that, I fail to see how a 335 would be such a "disaster".
I replaced 1 coil between 2 of my M52TU engines, and I'm replacing the whole set on my N52 (including spark plugs.) They are a wear item, they will go bad. Are you going to complain about replacing the timing belt in the J35 Accord?
Quote from: Char on September 30, 2014, 08:22:50 AM
N55's don't have carbon buildup and don't have HPFP issues.
Oil leaks are absolutely better than buring oil - for one, the issue is is external can be more easily rectified. If your burning oil, the problem will only get worse and indicates a problem with the rings - good luck on that.
Lot of hi po engines burn oil... S62, VQ35, H22A, yadda yadda. They run fine forever, just keep a quart in the tank.
Engines that leak... Porsche's first watercooled ones are the biggie.... no thx. Rather a little oil past a ring than all the oil out of a seal.
Quote from: Char on September 30, 2014, 08:27:23 AM
I replaced 1 coil between 2 of my M52TU engines, and I'm replacing the whole set on my N52 (including spark plugs.) They are a wear item, they will go bad. Are you going to complain about replacing the timing belt in the J35 Accord?
Everything is a wear item, Like the 1000 dollars worth of control arms on my E39, or the 500 dollar cooling system, or the valve cover and intake gaskets.....etc.
I've spent more "fixing" one bmw then I ever have on 20 japanese cars.
Not bashing, just pointing out that with any german car you have to pay to play.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 30, 2014, 08:43:40 AM
Everything is a wear item, Like the 1000 dollars worth of control arms on my E39, or the 500 dollar cooling system, or the valve cover and intake gaskets.....etc.
I've spent more "fixing" one bmw then I ever have on 20 japanese cars.
Not bashing, just pointing out that with any german car you have to pay to play.
I've owned Japanese cars and still perfer them over German cars, but the grass isn't always greener. Have you even tried to replace the water pump on a BMW M52/54/S52 series engine?
I can do the job in less than 30 minutes - the N52 uses an electric pump, so the process is more expensive and a little more difficult. My Japanese cars leaked oil at the valve cover and burned it too, my M series motor also burned a few quarts here or there.
Maintence is maintence, some cars are more affordable and more reliable than others. Yes, Miata will be cheaper to maintain than a 3 series - but it's also slower and less practical too. Name another RWD manual Sedan YOU would buy over a 3 series - and tell me how it's cheaper to own.
Its easy to get good at something when u get a lot of practice. BMWs give u a lot of practice on replacing cooling system components.
And when are u starting the clock on that 30 minutes.... are u jacking up the car, replacing the pump, and then putting the car back down in under 30 mins... that sounds pretty optimistic
I can change my oil in 15 minutes... if I don't count hauling all the shit down and up 2 flights of stairs etc etc.
Because jacking up a car takes two hours.
Quote from: Char on September 30, 2014, 09:23:05 AM
I've owned Japanese cars and still perfer them over German cars, but the grass isn't always greener. Have you even tried to replace the water pump on a BMW M52/54/S52 series engine? I can do the job in less than 30 minutes - the N52 uses an electric pump, so the process is more expensive and a little more difficult. My Japanese cars leaked oil at the valve cover and burned it too, my M series motor also burned a few quarts here or there.
Maintence is maintence, some cars are more affordable and more reliable than others. Yes, Miata will be cheaper to maintain than a 3 series - but it's also slower and less practical too. Name another RWD manual Sedan YOU would buy over a 3 series - and tell me how it's cheaper to own.
Hey, I'm just still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a 328 being a walk in the park but a 335 is a nightmare to be avoided. Then paying a bunch of money to "bridge the gap" all the while still paying a bunch of money for typical BMW maintenance items.
What would I buy over a 3 series? I would buy a 3 series, I guess I never stated otherwise. But I'd have to pay much more to maintain it then a G37 that's for sure, I doubt that is even debatable.
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 30, 2014, 09:32:56 AM
Because jacking up a car takes two hours.
It does when you're my M5 friend. :facepalm: :lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 30, 2014, 09:41:20 AM
Hey, I'm just still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a 328 being a walk in the park but a 335 is a nightmare to be avoided. Then paying a bunch of money to "bridge the gap" all the while still paying a bunch of money for typical BMW maintenance items.
What would I buy over a 3 series? I would buy a 3 series, I guess I never stated otherwise. But I'd have to pay much more to maintain it then a G37 that's for sure, I doubt that is even debatable.
I could have owned a 335i - and I didn't. It would require the same maintence and then some on top of a 328i. Is it faster? ABSOLUTELY. Better aftermarket support? ABSOLUTELY. Are the ownership cost higher? ABSOLUTELY.
I wanted something that was dependable first, good fuel economy and fun. I'm still in school, money is still an issue. I looked for a G35/7 but couldn't find any in my price range (at the time) with a manual. And I did price out the insurance cost - $50-70/mo higher. -$600 -$840 per year higher in insurance, plus the cost of gas. Yes, the 3 series was a more practical choice.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2014, 09:30:12 AM
Its easy to get good at something when u get a lot of practice. BMWs give u a lot of practice on replacing cooling system components.
And when are u starting the clock on that 30 minutes.... are u jacking up the car, replacing the pump, and then putting the car back down in under 30 mins... that sounds pretty optimistic
I can change my oil in 15 minutes... if I don't count hauling all the shit down and up 2 flights of stairs etc etc.
You don't have to jack the car up.
Quote from: hotrodalex on September 30, 2014, 09:32:56 AM
Because jacking up a car takes two hours.
No... I dont even jack the cars up for the oil change... but hauling all the tools up and down the stairs to the lot takes a while.
I'll jack you up.
Quote from: Char on September 29, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
With a BMW, I know what shit storm I'm expecting. With VW, you can't even begin to predict the amount of fuckups you'll have. The 335i is almost to that point - except it's one car and VW is the company as a whole.
:lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 30, 2014, 06:07:31 AM
Id rather burn oil than leak it... usually oil consumption is not as bad as an oil leak. W/an oil leak an engine can just GO, oil burn the system still has pressure till u get really low.
N54/N55, just make sure the HPFP is replaced, and budget for a walnut blasting every couple of years. And buy an extended warranty and a beater car :)
I mean, there are leaks and there are leaks... I think every car I've ever owned except maybe the Miata has leaked some oil, generally less than a quart per oil change. I would prefer that to burning oil, any day.
Quote from: Rupert on October 01, 2014, 11:47:24 AM
I mean, there are leaks and there are leaks... I think every car I've ever owned except maybe the Miata has leaked some oil, generally less than a quart per oil change. I would prefer that to burning oil, any day.
Agree. It does make a mess of things though, and that does suck.
I can't remember the last car I owned that leaked oil. I don't even think Sonoma leaked or burned oil.
I don't believe you, unless the context is you've forgotten most of your cars.
Quote from: Rupert on October 02, 2014, 10:03:22 PM
I don't believe you, unless the context is you've forgotten most of your cars.
My first car leaked oil from the distributor seal.
My second car leaked none.
My third car leaked none.
My fourth car leaked none.
Fifth... Don't even remember.
Sixth none.
Seventh none.
I lost count.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2946/15300169449_9613ac1012_c.jpg)
Active Autowerks, a big name in the BMW community just developed a set of long tubes for the N52, I know my next mod. (mock up prototype above)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3956/15300697218_a4d9c03aab_b.jpg)
25whp tuned? Why not. (Test car has a single stage intake manifold automatic on a Mustang Dyno)
Those are gonna be like $5000 though
No. You are not getting 25WHP from a set of headers (and that graph plainly tells you so).
Lmao... they used 2 different cars for the dyno proof
Needs more scrutiny.
Firstly, getting 25WHP on a car with 175 WHP just by adding a header???
Second, the advantage of adding a big ass header is the same from 2,500 rpm to 6,600 rpm???
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2014, 07:02:52 AM
Those are gonna be like $5000 though
Nah, even Super Sprint headers are about $1700, these are promised to be under $1000 and Schmiedmann are around $800.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2014, 07:58:02 AM
No. You are not getting 25WHP from a set of headers (and that graph plainly tells you so).
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/801/rhx0.jpg)
Sure.
Stock manifold with cat removed. Flow is terrible (as you can clearly see) but that's woth 13whp on it's own.
Super Sprint headers Dyno Dynamics
Before
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1060003&d=1405465540)
After
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1068551&d=1406757297)
Quote from: r0tor on October 17, 2014, 02:30:39 PM
Lmao... they used 2 different cars for the dyno proof
I noticed that too and called them out on it - both are automatic cars, the highest they baselined with on their Mustang dyno is about 175 or so.
A Manual car with Super Sprint and dyno tune for comparison -
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8653532724_f8ee3ee5e8_b.jpg)
According to them, the dynojet showed around 24Xwhp SAE. Good enough for me.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2014, 02:55:24 PM
Needs more scrutiny.
Firstly, getting 25WHP on a car with 175 WHP just by adding a header???
Second, the advantage of adding a big ass header is the same from 2,500 rpm to 6,600 rpm???
Have at it.
Maybe if the stock manifold came from the factory full of steel wool.
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 17, 2014, 05:20:41 PM
Maybe if the stock manifold came from the factory full of steel wool.
They are terrible.
Update on the car: New coils and Spark plugs will be in tomorrow. Found an awesome deal, so I scooped them up. Hopefully this will get rid of the hesitation issue I've been having (as well as the misfire) Looking to hit the dyno again next week to see where I'm at.
I don't think spark plugs will cure any driveability problems with a Quest. They are inherent to the design.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2014, 02:55:24 PM
Needs more scrutiny.
Second, the advantage of adding a big ass header is the same from 2,500 rpm to 6,600 rpm???
Bingo on that.
3 torque curves in almost perfect parallel screams that they biased the dyno.
Quote from: r0tor on October 17, 2014, 05:36:54 PM
Bingo on that.
3 torque curves in almost perfect parallel screams that they biased the dyno.
????
Have you seen the N52 Torque curve? Have you seeen the dyno?
Look at that again and tell me it's perfectly parallel. Look at the follow up post with the dynos as well.
A header will benefit at a particular rpm band due to resonance tuning and at higher rpms due to flowing better. The 1st and 2nd torque lines show almost a uniform seperation throught the entire rpm band. That is utter BS and is only possible by biasing the dyno as with the header ypu shoukd see gains in 1 or 2 areas of the rev band.
Look at your graph of the high flow cat. The toque curves converge at low rpms and have gains at high rpms due to a decrease in flow restriction. This is correct.
Look at the last plot. The intake/header blue line does not diverge from the orange line until late in the rpm band. This is correct.
90% of that "gain" on the header is pure bullshit.
This is priceless
Quote from: r0tor on October 17, 2014, 06:16:25 PM
A header will benefit at a particular rpm band due to resonance tuning and at higher rpms due to flowing better. The 1st and 2nd torque lines show almost a uniform seperation throught the entire rpm band. That is utter BS and is only possible by biasing the dyno as with the header ypu shoukd see gains in 1 or 2 areas of the rev band.
Look at your graph of the high flow cat. The toque curves converge at low rpms and have gains at high rpms due to a decrease in flow restriction. This is correct.
Look at the last plot. The intake/header blue line does not diverge from the orange line until late in the rpm band. This is correct.
90% of that "gain" on the header is pure bullshit.
LOL, I posted 3 different dynos of headers on these cars - it is what it what it is I guess. The dyno tuned car didn't change fueling because the major gains came from cam phasing and spark adjustment.
Where is Sonoma header dyno chart?
Quote from: 68_427 on October 17, 2014, 06:27:50 PM
Where is Sonoma header dyno chart?
Somewhere. But I can tell you from memory that it didn't turn out as expected.
Quote from: Char on October 17, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
LOL, I posted 3 different dynos of headers on these cars - it is what it what it is I guess. The dyno tuned car didn't change fueling because the major gains came from cam phasing and spark adjustment.
Go ahead and pay thousands of dollars for a product that was dyno proved by someone tweaking the torque calibration on the dyno... isnt my money -shrug-
Rotor is under the assumption that there shouldn't be a gain throughout the the RPM band as uniform as what's shown him. He should let Kooks know about that:
(http://files.americanmuscle.com/forum/KooksDynoGraph.jpg)
:popcorn:
Quote from: r0tor on October 17, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
Go ahead and pay thousands of dollars for a product that was dyno proved by someone tweaking the torque calibration on the dyno... isnt my money -shrug-
I totally agree there was some manipulation, but there is NO doubt in my mind about the potency of proper manifolds. The fact that the car tested with their prototypes didn't have a proper baseline done, the fact they didn't list how many runs they took to find their true baseline. Yes, the gain before and after tune seems too linar, but I only care about the final result.
Quote from: 68_427 on October 17, 2014, 06:27:50 PM
Where is Sonoma header dyno chart?
Here, though I'm not quite sure where you are going with it.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j128/ncasler/pub/sonoma_dyno.jpg)
Oh yeah forgot you revved it like a bitch. Should have gone to at least 8K rpm
Quote from: 68_427 on October 17, 2014, 06:47:36 PM
Oh yeah forgot you revved it like a bitch. Should have gone to at least 8K rpm
Don't forget shortly after that the flexplate destroyed itself..
From all that power.
You wanna make me a header? If you can beat the $100 for an ebay replica I'll buy from you.
Quote from: 68_427 on October 17, 2014, 06:50:49 PM
You wanna make me a header? If you can beat the $100 for an ebay replica I'll buy from you.
My welding has gotten much better, but I do not currently have access to a CNC machine. Also no, I can't beat the cost of Chinese labor.
I'll come pick it up if you install it too. Then we can rally race on land
For less than $100, I could probably fab one up out of PVC pipe, and cut the flange out of a sheet of plywood. Then we can race for pinks.
If only BMW made a more powerful model than the range topper 328. But, since they don't then I don't see the reason someone shouldn't spend thousands of dollars for whp gains that barely break into the double digits.
Here's a classic header comparo test on an ENGINE DYNO - an increase in peak torque/power usually comes at the expense lower down in the rev range. This is also why "improvements" with exhaust "flow" rarely net any sort of performance gain, and can often times hurt part throttle driveability, and ultimately how automakers arrive at their exhaust design after spending millions $$$. Chassis dynos are frauds and otherwise misapplied and vastly overused.
(http://ultimateheaders.com/images/products/dyno-results/graphs/LS7-vs-Ultimate-LG.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2014, 07:40:16 PM
Here's a classic header comparo test on an ENGINE DYNO - an increase in peak torque/power usually comes at the expense lower down in the rev range. This is also why "improvements" with exhaust "flow" rarely net any sort of performance gain, and can often times hurt part throttle driveability, and ultimately how automakers arrive at their exhaust design after spending millions $$$. Chassis dynos are frauds and otherwise misapplied and vastly overused.
(http://ultimateheaders.com/images/products/dyno-results/graphs/LS7-vs-Ultimate-LG.jpg)
1. Yeah, you haven't seen the N52 exhaust manifolds (if you want to call them that)
2. You're wrong.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 17, 2014, 07:21:45 PM
If only BMW made a more powerful model than the range topper 328. But, since they don't then I don't see the reason someone shouldn't spend thousands of dollars for whp gains that barely break into the double digits.
30-40whp gains are impressive no matter what platform it's on. But hey, it's a good thing I'm using my wallet and not yours, right?
Quote from: Char on October 17, 2014, 06:38:42 PM
I totally agree there was some manipulation, but there is NO doubt in my mind about the potency of proper manifolds. The fact that the car tested with their prototypes didn't have a proper baseline done, the fact they didn't list how many runs they took to find their true baseline. Yes, the gain before and after tune seems too linar, but I only care about the final result.
My head hurts
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2014, 07:40:16 PM
Here's a classic header comparo test on an ENGINE DYNO - an increase in peak torque/power usually comes at the expense lower down in the rev range. This is also why "improvements" with exhaust "flow" rarely net any sort of performance gain, and can often times hurt part throttle driveability, and ultimately how automakers arrive at their exhaust design after spending millions $$$. Chassis dynos are frauds and otherwise misapplied and vastly overused.
(http://ultimateheaders.com/images/products/dyno-results/graphs/LS7-vs-Ultimate-LG.jpg)
:golfclap:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 17, 2014, 07:21:45 PM
If only BMW made a more powerful model than the range topper 328. But, since they don't then I don't see the reason someone shouldn't spend thousands of dollars for whp gains that barely break into the double digits.
because INTERNET
Quote from: 68_427 on October 17, 2014, 06:47:36 PM
Oh yeah forgot you revved it like a bitch. Should have gone to at least 8K rpm
I would pay to see a Vortec 4300 rev to 8K
Stock bottom and top ends. Whats the worst that could happen???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Quote from: r0tor on October 17, 2014, 08:08:14 PM
My head hurts
Mine too, I'm about to crawl into bed, so I'll make this quick.
I think the final numbers and before numbers are correct and unaltered, but I don't think the comparison is absolutely accurate. More than likely, they took the worst pre run and compared it to the best post tune run to make the difference look more dramatic.
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 17, 2014, 08:36:51 PM
:golfclap:
Different cars are different. He posted a crate motor with optimized exhaust runners compared to another set of headers- what does that have to do with my car?
This is the stock exhaust manifold
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/TheGunner/128i/file_zps131b51d6.jpg)
Vs
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/TheGunner/128i/file_zps555b2513.jpg)
(equal length, longer primary, and tuned collector headers)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 17, 2014, 08:36:59 PM
because INTERNET
Yeah, 40whp more than stock is STUPID. Hey, welcome to last 3 pages where I stated I didn't want a 335i.
For opening up the flow, you'll get high end power and sacrifice the low end. That's a standard observation across any engine, thus Cougs graph is 100% relevant.
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 17, 2014, 10:41:33 PM
For opening up the flow, you'll get high end power and sacrifice the low end. That's a standard observation across any engine, thus Cougs graph is 100% relevant.
Broad and baseless.
Tell us how BMW makes magic engines.
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 17, 2014, 11:53:12 PM
Tell us how BMW makes magic engines.
Shut up and go to sleep, You have no fucking clue what you're talking about and it's getting old.
:cry:
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 18, 2014, 12:06:24 AM
:cry:
I know, right?
(http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/27649778+w640+h427+q80+re0+cr1/modp_1006_05_o%2B2006_nissan_350z_roadster%2Btest.jpg)
350Z Long tube header 30whp gains, no losses, no big deal.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1006-2006-nissan-350z-roadster/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1006-2006-nissan-350z-roadster/)
Char is right, at least on this one. This is an NC with just a full exhaust vs stock:
(http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/download/file.php?id=689)
Sure, OEM's spend a ton of money designing exhausts, but they're not designing it for power. They've got to meet emissions and sound requirements, too. Hence you end up with a stock header that looks like this:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4RoIMz5MWvc/UQ0Xk_42YSI/AAAAAAAAIFg/35L3ZHWwwEU/s1600/DSC00410OEheaderfullpic.jpg)
Look at the choke point right here:
(http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/download/file.php?id=1267)
Having your exhaust that restricted isn't going to do anything for your power or torque.
Impossible, Cougs told me OEMs extract max power and nobody can do better
10-15% more whp from just exhaust? C'mon, guys, we've been here before - simple logic tells you that is a dog that just don't hunt.
Also, if you do not reference an engine dyno test your opinions are invalid.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 18, 2014, 09:17:01 AM
10-15% more whp from just exhaust? C'mon, guys, we've been here before - simple logic tells you that is a dog that just don't hunt.
Also, if you do not reference an engine dyno test your opinions are invalid.
I don't play by your rules. Everyone in this thread who has been around a car already knows you're wrong. Moving on, my coils and plugs should be here, I'm just waiting.
Notice on those last two how the power gains increase with rpm?
Also, 30 whp with just headers? Why the hell didn't Nissan or BMW improve their manifold by just a little to get the incremental power gains for refreshed models?
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 18, 2014, 10:20:43 AM
Notice on those last two how the power gains increase with rpm?
Also, 30 whp with just headers? Why the hell didn't Nissan or BMW improve their manifold by just a little to get the incremental power gains for refreshed models?
What's your point? You're still not losing power or torque anywhere compared to the stock system.
This is the only forum I've seen where you guys actually argue that headers don't make for more power. :facepalm:
I'm not saying that headers don't make more power - I have headers on my car. But they won't make an equal power gain throughout the rev range. Nor will they get you 30 HP at the wheels unless something was seriously wrong before.
Not sure why you're arguing about equal power gains throughout the rev range when Cougs is arguing that you actually lose power/torque down low with a different system. And who cares if you get more power up top, when you're still improving your bottom end?
30HP at the wheels for the 328 vs 330 sounds feasible. They probably choked the fuck out of the 328 to keep it from stepping on the 330's toes. I wouldn't expect to see that big of a bump out of a 330, but that's all speculation.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 18, 2014, 11:19:54 AM
Not sure why you're arguing about equal power gains throughout the rev range when Cougs is arguing that you actually lose power/torque down low with a different system. And who cares if you get more power up top, when you're still improving your bottom end?
30HP at the wheels for the 328 vs 330 sounds feasible. They probably choked the fuck out of the 328 to keep it from stepping on the 330's toes. I wouldn't expect to see that big of a bump out of a 330, but that's all speculation.
It's the same: the 330i is only one model year and has a 3 stage intake manifold. The 328i has a single stage intake manifold.
And look at the dyno again and look at the torque gains, it's not perfectly parallel, it seems midrange benefits the most.
Quote from: Char on October 18, 2014, 09:22:16 AM
I don't play by your rules. Everyone in this thread who has been around a car already knows you're wrong. Moving on, my coils and plugs should be here, I'm just waiting.
You should play by my rules - you'd stop being wrong.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 18, 2014, 11:13:36 AM
What's your point? You're still not losing power or torque anywhere compared to the stock system.
This is the only forum I've seen where you guys actually argue that headers don't make for more power. :facepalm:
Lots of forums advocate grounding kits and CAIs and filters and 3" exhaust, etc., etc., and all under the general umbrella of a chassis dyno testing - and much if is BS, so you're in luck with the 'SPIN.
Here is a test of a stock LS7 with factory manifolds vs. ginormous long tube headers you couldn't even fit in a Corvette (http://ultimateheaders.com/dyno.shtml). Anyway, they did get + 20 hp and + 8 lb-ft but then again look at the curve - the stock LS7 manifolds make more hp/torque up till about 4,000 rpm. Also note his is on an engine dyno - 20 hp/8 lb-ft equate to a lot less when measured at the wheels (~25% loss or ~15 hp/6 lb-ft) such that you'd probably not see an increase in performance in a 505 hp car, and coupled with the loss in power/torque below 4,000 rpm, in sum total you'd have a car that wasn't any faster at WOT and wasn't as drivable.
So, my advice on all this, beyond of course asking me, is first look for testing done only on an engine dyno (preferably by a third party) and otherwise ignore any test results done on a chassis dyno. Second, THINK about your premise. For example this curve simply invalidates its own premise - how can "flow" be improved almost equally throughout the rev range?
Quote from: thecarnut on October 18, 2014, 08:07:16 AM
(http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/download/file.php?id=689)
Quote from: GoCougs on October 18, 2014, 01:10:41 PM
Lots of forums advocate grounding kits and CAIs and filters and 3" exhaust, etc., etc., and all under the general umbrella of a chassis dyno testing - and much if is BS, so you're in luck with the 'SPIN.
Here is a test of a stock LS7 with factory manifolds vs. ginormous long tube headers you couldn't even fit in a Corvette (http://ultimateheaders.com/dyno.shtml). Anyway, they did get + 20 hp and + 8 lb-ft but then again look at the curve - the stock LS7 manifolds make more hp/torque up till about 4,000 rpm. Also note his is on an engine dyno - 20 hp/8 lb-ft equate to a lot less when measured at the wheels (~25% loss or ~15 hp/6 lb-ft) such that you'd probably not see an increase in performance in a 505 hp car, and coupled with the loss in power/torque below 4,000 rpm, in sum total you'd have a car that wasn't any faster at WOT and wasn't as drivable.
So, my advice on all this, beyond of course asking me, is first look for testing done only on an engine dyno (preferably by a third party) and otherwise ignore any test results done on a chassis dyno. Second, THINK about your premise. For example this curve simply invalidates its own premise - how can "flow" be improved almost equally throughout the rev range?
It's not equal, the largest gains are obviously being shown where the demand for flow is the highest.
Quote from: Char on October 19, 2014, 11:01:03 AM
It's not equal, the largest gains are obviously being shown where the demand for flow is the highest.
In other words, you're not gonna best a factory exhaust on a factory engine.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 01:03:22 PM
In other words, you're not gonna best a factory exhaust on a factory engine.
No, this is wrong. Chassis dynos from aftermarket part sellers are just not the best evidence of this- but other things, like pretty basic fluid dynamics analyses of stock exhausts, are.
Again if a factory exhaust can't be improved upon, explain how a catalytic converter is better for exhaust flow than open pipe.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 01:03:22 PM
In other words, you're not gonna best a factory exhaust on a factory engine.
:facepalm: :popcorn:
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 01:03:22 PM
In other words, you're not gonna best a factory exhaust on a factory engine.
Annnnnddd there's where I disagree as well.
But power gains from headers will be less on a factory engine than on a modified engine. Which is where I take issue with 30 WHP gains when the engine is otherwise stock except for a lame CAI.
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 19, 2014, 02:19:51 PM
Annnnnddd there's where I disagree as well.
But power gains from headers will be less on a factory engine than on a modified engine. Which is where I take issue with 30 WHP gains when the engine is otherwise stock except for a lame CAI.
Well, lots of header tests out there of a stock engine on an engine dyno and every single one I'm able to find shows the exact results as shown with the LS7 test I posted above - at best a wee bit of gain and a wee bit of loss of power at lower RPMs. Push me far enough, and under the general auspices of measurement systems (i.e., GRR, accuracy specs, etc.) and I'll declare these gains/losses as invalid.
Again, this can all be addressed with logic - less than optimal exhaust design = lower mpg and lower performance. No one has yet to counter how an automaker will spend tens/hundreds of millions $$$ to design an engine/power train only to somehow "compromise" on exhaust to then be shown up Jim Bob's Headers?
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
Well, lots of header tests out there of a stock engine on an engine dyno and every single one I'm able to find shows the exact results as shown with the LS7 test I posted above - at best a wee bit of gain and a wee bit of loss of power at lower RPMs. Push me far enough, and under the general auspices of measurement systems (i.e., GRR, accuracy specs, etc.) and I'll declare these gains/losses as invalid.
Again, this can all be addressed with logic - less than optimal exhaust design = lower mpg and lower performance. No one has yet to counter how an automaker will spend tens/hundreds of millions $$$ to design an engine/power train only to somehow "compromise" on exhaust to then be shown up Jim Bob's Headers?
Automakers must sell as many cars as cheaply as they can to make a profit.
Tell me what good a single exhaust pipe to dual mufflers does. Why do they exist??
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
Well, lots of header tests out there of a stock engine on an engine dyno and every single one I'm able to find shows the exact results as shown with the LS7 test I posted above - at best a wee bit of gain and a wee bit of loss of power at lower RPMs. Push me far enough, and under the general auspices of measurement systems (i.e., GRR, accuracy specs, etc.) and I'll declare these gains/losses as invalid.
Again, this can all be addressed with logic - less than optimal exhaust design = lower mpg and lower performance. No one has yet to counter how an automaker will spend tens/hundreds of millions $$$ to design an engine/power train only to somehow "compromise" on exhaust to then be shown up Jim Bob's Headers?
LS7 = high performance engine with parts optimized for the most gains. There are no E90/92 M3 headers, because the factory units are perfect (when the catalyst are deleted) This is not the case with the N52
Quote from: GoCougs on October 19, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
Again, this can all be addressed with logic - less than optimal exhaust design = lower mpg and lower performance. No one has yet to counter how an automaker will spend tens/hundreds of millions $$$ to design an engine/power train only to somehow "compromise" on exhaust to then be shown up Jim Bob's Headers?
Easy- you keep ignoring the simple fact that the manufacturer has to design to dozens of parameters that work against full on performance. Fuel economy itself works against full on performance- a street car is generally driven in the lower registers of the RPM range, so manufacturers will tune engines to that use at the expense of full on high RPM performance. You yourself have cried about the "tyranny" of EPA fuel economy testing- you don't think manufacturers have to make concessions on design to get those numbers up?
Jim Bob's headers can beat an OEM in many ways. Jim Bob is not constrained by things like cost, fuel economy, emissions, etc. Jim Bob might not have the expertise or resources of an OEM, but he doesn't have to- again, you still have yet to answer the simple question of how the honeycomb lattice of a catalytic converter is better for horsepower or fuel economy than an open pipe. Same with short, cast, unequal length headers vs long tubes, etc. etc. If OEM designs are so great for performance, why don't we see stuff like catalytic converters and charcoal canisters in any unrestricted form of motorsport? Your assertion that OEMs = optimal has been repeatedly torn to shreds.
Quote from: Char on October 19, 2014, 04:45:29 PM
LS7 = high performance engine with parts optimized for the most gains. There are no E90/92 M3 headers, because the factory units are perfect (when the catalyst are deleted) This is not the case with the N52
This also doesn't pass logic muster. BMW has WAY more $$$$, like 10/100/1000x more, into 3er development than GM has into the Z06 simply owing to 3er sales volume >>>>>> Z06 (or even Corvette) sales volume.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 20, 2014, 07:48:03 AM
Easy- you keep ignoring the simple fact that the manufacturer has to design to dozens of parameters that work against full on performance. Fuel economy itself works against full on performance- a street car is generally driven in the lower registers of the RPM range, so manufacturers will tune engines to that use at the expense of full on high RPM performance. You yourself have cried about the "tyranny" of EPA fuel economy testing- you don't think manufacturers have to make concessions on design to get those numbers up?
Jim Bob's headers can beat an OEM in many ways. Jim Bob is not constrained by things like cost, fuel economy, emissions, etc. Jim Bob might not have the expertise or resources of an OEM, but he doesn't have to- again, you still have yet to answer the simple question of how the honeycomb lattice of a catalytic converter is better for horsepower or fuel economy than an open pipe. Same with short, cast, unequal length headers vs long tubes, etc. etc. If OEM designs are so great for performance, why don't we see stuff like catalytic converters and charcoal canisters in any unrestricted form of motorsport? Your assertion that OEMs = optimal has been repeatedly torn to shreds.
Simply back up your claims (engine dyno testing only of course) and then be prepared for some precision Internetry.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2014, 08:13:36 AM
This also doesn't pass logic muster. BMW has WAY more $$$$, like 10/100/1000x more, into 3er development than GM has into the Z06 simply owing to 3er sales volume >>>>>> Z06 (or even Corvette) sales volume.
This seems like a logical fail. You're saying development costs are directly correlated with sales volume? By that measure, did Toyota spend more developing the Camry than Porsche did developing the 918?
Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2014, 08:26:34 AM
Simply back up your claims (engine dyno testing only of course) and then be prepared for some precision Internetry.
You backed up my claims for me with your LT1 dyno graph. Torque is a direct measure of an engine's efficiency at a given RPM... that LT1 will be slower and burn more gas if kept in the lower RPMs with that header setup.
And dont make demands on others when you refuse to acknowledge others' points or answer simple questions... I'll ask for the 100th time... is the honeycomb lattice of a catalytic converter better for horsepower/torque/performance/engine efficiency than a straight pipe? Show your math and engine dyno proof.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 20, 2014, 08:29:47 AM
This seems like a logical fail. You're saying development costs are directly correlated with sales volume? By that measure, did Toyota spend more developing the Camry than Porsche did developing the 918?
Toyota sold 730,000 Camry/Avensis in 2013. At an average sales price of lets say $25,000, that is $17.5B revenue/year, and given the Camry model run is 5 years, that is $87.5B. The 918 costs ~$1MM and is expected to sell a few dozen maybe a few score. I'll be generous and say 100.
$87.5B vs. $100MM revenue - which is gonna engender more development $$$? Of course Toyota spent WAY more on Camry/Avensis development.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2014, 09:28:31 AM
Toyota sold 730,000 Camry/Avensis in 2013. At an average sales price of lets say $25,000, that is $17.5B revenue/year, and given the Camry model run is 5 years, that is $87.5B. The 918 costs ~$1MM and is expected to sell a few dozen maybe a few score. I'll be generous and say 100.
$87.5B vs. $100MM revenue - which is gonna engender more development $$$? Of course Toyota spent WAY more on Camry/Avensis development.
Then why is the Camry still rolling with a 6 year old I4 and 12 year old V6 with a very run of the mill low tech chassis, while the 918 is one of the most technologically advanced cars in automotive history? :confused:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 20, 2014, 09:23:44 AM
You backed up my claims for me with your LT1 dyno graph. Torque is a direct measure of an engine's efficiency at a given RPM... that LT1 will be slower and burn more gas if kept in the lower RPMs with that header setup.
And dont make demands on others when you refuse to acknowledge others' points or answer simple questions... I'll ask for the 100th time... is the honeycomb lattice of a catalytic converter better for horsepower/torque/performance/engine efficiency than a straight pipe? Show your math and engine dyno proof.
Meh, this is tiring. You are not gonna improve a stock exhaust on a stock engine (or at least improve performance/mpg).
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 20, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Then why is the Camry still rolling with a 6 year old I4 and 12 year old V6 with a very run of the mill low tech chassis, while the 918 is one of the most technologically advanced cars in automotive history? :confused:
The reality confuses exactly no one familiar with/versed in product design or manufacturing.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2014, 09:48:06 AM
Meh, this is tiring. You are not gonna improve a stock exhaust on a stock engine (or at least improve performance/mpg).
Ummm actually I have improved exhausts on those metrics many times. I'll ask again Cougs, how does a catalytic converter improve performance/mpg over an open pipe? It's getting tiring because you can't defend the fundamental holes in your plot here.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 20, 2014, 09:55:48 AM
The reality confuses exactly no one familiar with/versed in product design or manufacturing.
You are presenting your assumptions/opinions as fact...
Since you are so certain... you must have a $$$$ amount spent on development for the Camry vs the 918, yes? You don't think Porsche had to spend to develop the carbon fiber manufacturing techniques or high level PHEV tech? Meanwhile the Camry is by and large the lowest tech entrant in its segment... and since we are presenting empty speculation as fact I'm "sure" the Camry's manufacturing techniques are not that advanced. Camry is low tech and cheap to make because Toyota can lead sales and meet objectives doing so... that reality confuses exactly no one familiar with the auto industry.
That inline-6 with the magnesium core and aluminum sleeves is a beautiful engine. I can't imagine wanting to hack it apart for small gains. Maybe Char is frustrated that he doesn't quite have enough oomph to pull away from all those Civic Sis.
Quote from: Tave on October 20, 2014, 11:33:54 AM
Maybe Char is frustrated that he doesn't quite have enough oomph to pull away from all those Civic Sis.
:huh:
Quote from: Tave on October 20, 2014, 11:33:54 AM
That inline-6 with the magnesium core and aluminum sleeves is a beautiful engine. I can't imagine wanting to hack it apart for small gains. Maybe Char is frustrated that he doesn't quite have enough oomph to pull away from all those Civic Sis.
He is doing bolt-ons AFAIK, that doesn´t mess with the engine IMO.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 20, 2014, 12:07:47 PM
He is doing bolt-ons AFAIK, that doesn´t mess with the engine IMO.
The engine or it's attached parts, whatevs.
This is hacking up an N52
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u233/rom3n/n52dynocopy_zps5f527fb8.jpg~original)
Not my cup of tea, but I can see the appeal.
Anyhow, the goal is to make the car better than it was before, most of the parts are actually OEM, including the intake manifold and the airbox
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8367/8558962297_3f5857ca7f_b.jpg)
(3 stage manifold and tune vs stock)
And finish off here
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8653532724_f8ee3ee5e8_b.jpg)
(FBO including headers and intake manifold)
Which is about...100whp less than a E9X M3
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7152/6550097557_4ef5148503_o.png)
M3 with filter, axelback and tune.
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u233/rom3n/n52dynocopy_zps5f527fb8.jpg~original)
Let me guess, the blue is a stock car, the red is after a grounding strap and a tune.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 21, 2014, 02:00:58 PM
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u233/rom3n/n52dynocopy_zps5f527fb8.jpg~original)
Let me guess, the blue is a stock car, the red is after a grounding strap and a tune.
:lol:
Quote from: thecarnut on October 18, 2014, 08:07:16 AM
(http://www.mazdatalkforum.com/download/file.php?id=1267)
That is the worst header/manifold I have ever seen, what a POS. So much for superior Mazda engineering.
A new dyno was released today:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1117316&stc=1&d=1415890963)
1) stock 207 whp - 190 wtq
2) AA tune 219 whp - 204 wtq
3) 3 stage with AA tune 233 whp - wtq 222
Those are DE VQ numbers, we are hoping for 25Xwhp with headers, putting it in range of a bolt on VQ35DE - not bad.
Who is this "we" that has continually been referenced throughout the thread?
Dude's got a whole raceteam behind him bruh.
Quote from: hotrodalex on November 13, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
Dude's got a whole raceteam behind him bruh.
Over 100HP/L bruh.
Quote from: Tave on November 13, 2014, 10:55:20 AM
Who is this "we" that has continually been referenced throughout the thread?
He's using it to effectively insert himself into these tuning scenario's. After reading this thread, his use of we, one would assume he works for the majority of these tuners/suppliers.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 13, 2014, 01:51:04 PM
He's using it to effectively insert himself into these tuning scenario's. After reading this thread, his use of we, one would assume he works for the majority of these tuners/suppliers.
Or my tuner and myself, but your theory works too!
Quote from: Char on November 13, 2014, 12:05:25 PM
Over 100HP/L bruh.
Close I think but a bit less. 233whp from 3.0L.
E46 M·s dyne between 260 and 290 rwhp (of course those are 3.2).
This thread is like Shaman was ripped from the C&D grave and turned into a Bavarian worshipping yuppie
heh Good times
Quote from: Char on November 13, 2014, 12:05:25 PM
Over 100HP/L bruh.
How awkward do you feel that you'd see nothing but taillights from a V6 Camcord?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 13, 2014, 04:53:38 PM
Close I think but a bit less. 233whp from 3.0L.
E46 M·s dyne between 260 and 290 rwhp (of course those are 3.2).
233 is around 280hp - 250whp would be at or over 300hp
E46 M3s are 333hp and you are correct, dyno at about 260-280whp.
Quote from: r0tor on November 13, 2014, 07:03:46 PM
This thread is like Shaman was ripped from the C&D grave and turned into a Bavarian worshipping yuppie
Ha.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 14, 2014, 09:43:19 AM
How awkward do you feel that you'd see nothing but taillights from a V6 Camcord?
Hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it could. I wouldn't feel any way about it, I'm happy with my
RWD Manual Sedan.
I'm thinking about building my car for STX - give me an attainable goal to reach for and have fun doing it.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946030 (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946030)
I'm impressed at his progress, I was never a fan of the 1s smushed face though.
Not bad for a BMW
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7508/16035689042_f4c906edf7_h.jpg)
Final numbers.
Quote from: Char on December 16, 2014, 10:28:54 AM
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7508/16035689042_f4c906edf7_h.jpg)
Final numbers.
Nice man.
I thought u had a 325i
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 16, 2014, 10:34:02 AM
I thought u had a 325i
??? I have a 328i - the 325/330i were only available in 2006. All the same either way.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on December 16, 2014, 10:33:34 AM
Nice man.
Not me, not yet. My final number will be close (hopefully).
So you just post random dyno's of other people cars in your build thread?
:facepalm: :wtf:
I thought Char had a Golf GTI!? :evildude:
Can threw a few codes for a failed Valvetronic sensor and bad vanos solenoid. The hardest part of the job is getting the valve cover off, replacing the sensor is super easy. Also replaced the valve cover gasket, cleaned and swapped the vanos (vvt) solenoid. (Which didn't help, it needs to be replaced outright) and put it back together. I'll replace the solenoid this week (takes 10 minutes) and do a dyno to see where I'm at before more mods.
Check out how clean the engine is.
I had an oil leak around the spark plugs in my old E46, had a friend's shop fix it since I didn't feel like tearing it all apart. Made me appreciate my pooprod V8.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/samessue/3%20stage%20dyno_zps9p7w3qbk.png)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/samessue/3%20stage%20dyno%20SAE_zpsalm2vfjm.png)
OEM 3 stage manifold, Dinan modified intake box, tune - that's it.
A/F seems to actually be the stock map, so I'm looking to get that modified otherwise, this is making pretty solid power for what was a 90* day with a tiny fan in front.
Some of those gains are barely 3-4 percent, how do you know that isnt just mostly run variation data "noise".
That's a 20whp gain over my stock dyno, but what I posted was just today's runs in the Florida heat.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 18, 2015, 07:54:47 PM
Some of those gains are barely 3-4 percent, how do you know that isnt just mostly run variation data "noise".
He doesn't. That's why it's funny. The best part, the "improved" dynos above are actually making less power down low. Even if that data was 100% perfect, it's still a wash.
Quote from: MrH on April 18, 2015, 09:56:35 PM
He doesn't. That's why it's funny. The best part, the "improved" dynos above are actually making less power down low. Even if that data was 100% perfect, it's still a wash.
I didn't know you were blind.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/15yt7og.jpg)
Looks like more than a 2-4% increase to me.
how much money for 7-9.5% gain?.....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 19, 2015, 05:49:55 AM
how much money for 7-9.5% gain?.....
$300 For the intake manifold
$500 for the tune - (I got the 3 stage file as a freebie)
$260 Dinan intake which was on sale, and the ex bought it (I doubt it did anything)
If I could have done it all over again, I might have gone with a different tuner, there is still plenty of power left on the table, the car is still running the stock fuel curve.
Exciting stuff
Quote from: MrH on April 18, 2015, 09:56:35 PM
He doesn't. That's why it's funny. The best part, the "improved" dynos above are actually making less power down low. Even if that data was 100% perfect, it's still a wash.
It's even worse. Over just three consecutive samples power variation is 7-8 hp which means the "test system" accuracy is probably at least 2x that. Add a bit of flubbing of dyno parameters by the shop to bait ricers and you have the awfulness of dudes spending ~$1,000 on Stuff That Doesn't Make Any Difference.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 19, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
It's even worse. Over just three consecutive samples power variation is 7-8 hp which means the "test system" accuracy is probably at least 2x that. Add a bit of flubbing of dyno parameters by the shop to bait ricers and you have the awfulness of dudes spending ~$1,000 on Stuff That Doesn't Make Any Difference.
shhhhhhhhhhh Don't crush the awesomeness. Or the fact that "just a tune" means killing the life expectancy on the motor (because if a tune is needed to take advantage of "just a little bit of airflow change", well then :huh: )...
Could it be 90 degree heat cause my car to pull some timing up to and lose a bit of power? Nah...dynos aren't accurate and factory parts lose power.
Quote from: Char on April 19, 2015, 04:44:47 PM
Could it be 90 degree heat cause my car to pull some timing up to and lose a bit of power? Nah...dynos aren't accurate and factory parts lose power.
So, IOW, a chassis dyno is only good for AT BEST 5% accuracy so for a ~200 whp motor a +/- 10 hp change means nothing.
LOL at spending over $1k on a tune and intake. :facepalm:
Quote from: thecarnut on April 19, 2015, 07:50:48 PM
LOL at spending over $1k on a tune and intake. :facepalm:
Those are actually REALLY good prices for those products, especially considering the brand of car.
But where do you see I spend $1000 on an intake and tune?
This build thread is like being a fly on the wall at NASA during the 60s. Its really incredible high level stuff
I wish it was a Quest, maybe something would have even happened to it.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 19, 2015, 06:58:51 PM
So, IOW, a chassis dyno is only good for AT BEST 5% accuracy so for a ~200 whp motor a +/- 10 hp change means nothing.
Then by the same token, isn't it possible the power gains are even more than he is showing on the final reports?
If the variation is
+/- 10 hp, his results might actually be BETTER than he thinks. :lol:
Quote from: Char on April 20, 2015, 12:26:38 AM
Those are actually REALLY good prices for those products, especially considering the brand of car.
But where do you see I spend $1000 on an intake and tune?
Quote from: Char on April 19, 2015, 10:55:51 AM
$300 For the intake manifold
$500 for the tune - (I got the 3 stage file as a freebie)
$260 Dinan intake which was on sale, and the ex bought it (I doubt it did anything)
If I could have done it all over again, I might have gone with a different tuner, there is still plenty of power left on the table, the car is still running the stock fuel curve.
Intake manifold + Intake + tune = 1060
obviously he lumped in the manifold and intake as one in an attempt to make you look bad.
Yes you did "intake" work, yes you had it tuned, yes you gained 20whp and yes you spent 1000 dollars. But he didn't have to twist it around like that.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 20, 2015, 04:36:41 AM
This build thread is like being a fly on the wall at NASA during the 60s. Its really incredible high level stuff
:lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 20, 2015, 04:36:41 AM
This build thread is like being a fly on the wall at NASA during the 60s. Its really incredible high level stuff
You're right, I could be rice out a civic that cost the same money as a 325i and still do everything worse.
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 09:01:42 AM
You're right, I could be rice out a civic that cost the same money as a 325i and still do everything worse.
Yea like have more problems... like water pumps that break enough that one can have the privilege of becoming an expert at replacing them
Or burn more fuel on an 80 MPH commute
Etc. etc.
Plus my bike "does everything better" than your 328i, uses less gas, costs less to insure, is more reliable and offers a way purer driving experience. Only thing the 325i would have net me is the approval of some kid on the internet w/a God complex and anger issues. I really missed out
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 21, 2015, 09:25:24 AM
Yea like have more problems... like water pumps that break enough that one can have the privilege of becoming an expert at replacing them
Or burn more fuel on an 80 MPH commute
Etc. etc.
Plus my bike "does everything better" than your 328i, uses less gas, costs less to insure, is more reliable and offers a way purer driving experience. Only thing the 325i would have net me is the approval of some kid on the internet w/a God complex and anger issues. I really missed out
M54 =/= N52.
I've had 2 cars that had a M54, plus a friend's car with one. You're damn right that I'm good at replacing a part that literally is 4 bolts and a belt to remove. On my N52 the pump made it to
75,000 miles before I decided not to chance it a replace it.
My 328i still (as of this moment) averages over
32-34MPG on the highway at 80mph.
My 328i still drives like stock and does everything a normal car can do (unlike your bike) like carry 4 additional people.
Why are you so butthurt over MY car when you have your own miserble thread to cry in? I'm not upset and my jimmies aren't rustled - made made as much power as I estimated and I'm on track to make more, in a car
I enjoy driving. Enjoy your shit sandwhich sir.
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 01:06:31 PM
M54 =/= N52.
I've had 2 cars that had a M54, plus a friend's car with one. You're damn right that I'm good at replacing a part that literally is 4 bolts and a belt to remove. On my N52 the pump made it to 75,000 miles before I decided not to chance it a replace it.
My 328i still (as of this moment) averages over 32-34MPG on the highway at 80mph.
My 328i still drives like stock and does everything a normal car can do (unlike your bike) like carry 4 additional people.
Only cars Ive had to change water pumps on are the ones where it was attached to timing belts for maintenance. Thats unacceptable.
I couldnt care less about your convenient anecdotes either. My driving is pretty much spot on with EPA combined estimates in any car I drive on my commute. Z did ~20. Bike does 40. Civic does 29. EPA rates N52 3s at 21, Fuelly is not much better (~23), and thats on premium. Your biased 1 sample size statistical analysis on BMW reliability also doesnt mean shit and doesnt line up with the mountain of contrary evidence specific to the N52 3s, be it from CR or TD. So shit gas mileage and questionable reliability vs good gas mileage and reliability, for a daily driver for someone with very little time and appetite for spending $$$ to chase demons... no thx.
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 01:06:31 PM
Why are you so butthurt over MY car when you have your own miserble thread to cry in? I'm not upset and my jimmies aren't rustled - made made as much power as I estimated and I'm on track to make more, in a car I enjoy driving. Enjoy your shit sandwhich sir.
Only one butthurt here is you on how thoroughly unimpressed we are by this "epic build". And lol @ telling me to stay out of this thread after how thoroughly u shit up my Z thread. U can dish it but u cant take it huh? ;) Naw Im just here to pay what I owe and enjoy the show. Now go ahead and post another dyno, maybe this time someone will care lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvsWm3S99M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvsWm3S99M)
Looks like a nice addition to the intake work you've done...10WHP!!!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 21, 2015, 02:08:27 PM
Only cars Ive had to change water pumps on are the ones where it was attached to timing belts for maintenance. Thats unacceptable.
I couldnt care less about your convenient anecdotes either. My driving is pretty much spot on with EPA combined estimates in any car I drive on my commute. Z did ~20. Bike does 40. Civic does 29. EPA rates N52 3s at 21, Fuelly is not much better (~23), and thats on premium. Your biased 1 sample size statistical analysis on BMW reliability also doesnt mean shit and doesnt line up with the mountain of contrary evidence specific to the N52 3s, be it from CR or TD. So shit gas mileage and questionable reliability vs good gas mileage and reliability, for a daily driver for someone with very little time and appetite for spending $$$ to chase demons... no thx.
Only one butthurt here is you on how thoroughly unimpressed we are by this "epic build". And lol @ telling me to stay out of this thread after how thoroughly u shit up my Z thread. U can dish it but u cant take it huh? ;) Naw Im just here to pay what I owe and enjoy the show. Now go ahead and post another dyno, maybe this time someone will care lol.
Bitch, you're not paying me much of anything. :rolleyes:
20WHP for $700 is awesome for ANY N/A Platform - could your civic do that? What's that, I'm on track for another 20whp more without breaking a sweat. Has the car been reliable? Yes, it has NEVER left me stranded.
Unlike you, I had a goal in mind when I purchased my car, it didn't do it on emotion like a woman/child would do. I'm not a illogical frothing at the mouth brand whore like yourself who bought a Honda Civic to rice out over a 350Z. You bought a Civic, a car that hasn't been relevant at anything the 6th generation, pretty much every other car does everything better. Now you're going to take that money you didn't save to make it "Almost" a car you could have bought in the first place. So please, don't be upset with me you make poor decisions - that's not MY fault.
Here comes the obligatory BMW douchebag comment.
Here comes more Comments about how my "build sucks" because it's not 3 pages of me being too much of a pussy to make someone bleed my brakes properly.
Here comes comments about how this is so underwhelming because I only post when there is something significant and don't drag ass about how my family sedan wallows down the street.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 21, 2015, 02:16:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvsWm3S99M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvsWm3S99M)
Looks like a nice addition to the intake work you've done...10WHP!!!
SWEET HOW MUCH ARE THEY I NEED TO GO GET MY BEFORE AND AFTER DYNO THEN INSTALL THIS
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 05:26:27 PM
Bitch, you're not paying me much of anything. :rolleyes:
20WHP for $700 is awesome for ANY N/A Platform - could your civic do that? What's that, I'm on track for another 20whp more without breaking a sweat. Has the car been reliable? Yes, it has NEVER left me stranded.
Unlike you, I had a goal in mind when I purchased my car, it didn't do it on emotion like a woman/child would do. I'm not a illogical frothing at the mouth brand whore like yourself who bought a Honda Civic to rice out over a 350Z. You bought a Civic, a car that hasn't been relevant at anything the 6th generation, pretty much every other car does everything better. Now you're going to take that money you didn't save to make it "Almost" a car you could have bought in the first place. So please, don't be upset with me you make poor decisions - that's not MY fault.
Here comes the obligatory BMW douchebag comment.
Here comes more Comments about how my "build sucks" because it's not 3 pages of me being too much of a pussy to make someone bleed my brakes properly.
Here comes comments about how this is so underwhelming because I only post when there is something significant and don't drag ass about how my family sedan wallows down the street.
Poor decisions lol
U did a build to impress a bunch of strangers who dont like, care about or have even a shred of respect for u
U keep coming back to a message board where u called everyone stupid (and again did a build to impress said idiots)
U measure the character of a man by the car he drives. How much is a 10 year old non ///M BMW worth, LOL.
Poor decisions lol. Wen u get the chance go check out my house thread. Priorities, one of us has them, and its not you.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 21, 2015, 07:43:39 PM
Poor decisions lol
U did a build to impress a bunch of strangers who dont like, care about or have even a shred of respect for u
U keep coming back to a message board where u called everyone stupid (and again did a build to impress said idiots)
U measure the character of a man by the car he drives. How much is a 10 year old non ///M BMW worth, LOL.
Poor decisions lol. Wen u get the chance go check out my house thread. Priorities, one of us has them, and its not you.
I build my car for me (and currently STX SCCA) You're the only one who is getting emotional over my actions
I didn't call everyone stupid, but if I did insult someone, I'm sure they deserved it.
Now? Nothing, the car has depreciated like a rock, good thing I didn't buy it to impress anyone. Still wondering why you would even consider a Civic when it's so cheap to buy a E90 now.
I didn't even know you had a house thread - just goes to show how much I really pay attention to you.
Nissan Quest can't run in STX class. Dumbass.
lol this thread is amazing.
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 07:52:08 PM
I didn't call everyone stupid, but if I did insult someone, I'm sure they deserved it.
Lol no
Quote from: thecarnut on April 21, 2015, 07:56:51 PM
lol this thread is amazing.
Yes but for totally different reasons for one person.
I think i know what's going on here between these two.
:wub:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 21, 2015, 07:57:05 PM
Lol no
Yes.
Don't say stupid shit and we wouldn't have a problem. You think you can troll me by entering this thread, but I bet your forgot I made this to rustle your jimmies. I literally spend 0 time on this forums, because I can't be bothered to explain why the VW Jetta is a POS to Raza for the 15th time while him and sporty attempt to deepthroat the exhaust pipe.
TBH this latest round of Char-hating is kinda uncalled for and relatively unprovoked.
Yeah people need to relax. I've spent over $2500 on ricer mods for my lesbo wagon.
Quote from: Char on April 21, 2015, 08:37:41 PM
Yes.
Don't say stupid shit and we wouldn't have a problem.
Hee hee hee
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 21, 2015, 10:31:01 PM
TBH this latest round of Char-hating is kinda uncalled for and relatively unprovoked.
It's maybe a little strong but d00d has been very rude to people his whole time here for no reason.
Quote from: 68_427 on April 21, 2015, 10:42:16 PM
Yeah people need to relax. I've spent over $2500 on ricer mods for my lesbo wagon.
U havent been a disrespectful little gnat from the word go though.
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 21, 2015, 10:31:01 PM
TBH this latest round of Char-hating is kinda uncalled for and relatively unprovoked.
Well thats just like your opinion dude.
More questionable dynos please.
Meh this bores me now, have fun with your intake
:popcorn:
You would expect this level of loathing over car modifications in a tree huggers forum rather than an "automotive enthusiast" forum
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 05:33:28 PM
:popcorn:
You would expect this level of loathing over car modifications in a tree huggers forum rather than an "automotive enthusiast" forum
A lot of the "automotive enthusiast" world is filled up with pricks who spend money on stupid things.
I spent as more money then Char did on his mods in the last month on tires and much more then that on wheels -shrug-
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 05:33:28 PM
:popcorn:
You would expect this level of loathing over car modifications in a tree huggers forum rather than an "automotive enthusiast" forum
As usual u miss the point, nobody is loathing the car mods
Speaking to his point about $700 & 30whp tho, heres 50whp for what can be like $700 ($300 Hondata reflash, $250 race header, $100-150 intake)
(https://www.hondata.com/reflash_05-06_rsx_race_header.html)
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 06:37:56 PM
I spent as more money then Char did on his mods in the last month on tires and much more then that on wheels -shrug-
Do u want an award?
https://www.hondata.com/reflash_05-06_rsx_race_header.html (https://www.hondata.com/reflash_05-06_rsx_race_header.html)
From an engine 2/3 the size no less :huh:
Here's a gain of 32HP (not peak) for $300 from a 2.4L
https://www.hondata.com/reflash_tsx_06.html (https://www.hondata.com/reflash_tsx_06.html)
Dont care enough to dig but mixing and matching OEM parts on K series engines can yield nice gains too
I suppose eeking that out of a BMW makes it special? Maybe to BMW guys :huh:
Wow, "32" HP over s 400rpm band because the stock tune apparently has a bad dead spot... 2-3 HP for 6,000 rpms, and <10 for the remaining 1,000 rpms
This is impressive???
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 07:23:49 PM
Wow, "32" HP over s 400rpm band because the stock fine apparently has a bad dead spot... 2-3 HP for 6,000 rpms, and <10 for the remaining 1,000 rpms
This is impressive???
I like how u purposely overlooked the link with the 40-50lb-ft gain from idle to the 8500 RPM fuel cutoff on the little 2 liter
Makes more WHP than your RX-8 at the crank, gets double the gas mileage too lol. Let me stop
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 22, 2015, 07:26:41 PM
I like how u purposely overlooked the link with the 40-50lb-ft gain from idle to the 8500 RPM fuel cutoff on the little 2 liter
Makes more WHP than your RX-8 at the crank, gets double the gas mileage too lol. Let me stop
It has a race header with no cats and wouldn't pass emissions testing. Yippee
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 22, 2015, 06:51:52 PM
Do u want an award?
Do you want an award for buying a house to overcompensate for your insecurities?
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 07:30:29 PM
It has a race header with no cats and wouldn't pass emissions testing. Yippee
U can put a cat on after the exhaust.
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 07:33:28 PM
Do you want an award for buying a house to overcompensate for your insecurities?
And what insecurities are those? :popcorn: Surely it had nothing to do with being tired of living in and throwing money away on renting apartments. If making threads about purchases = overcompensating for insecurities u are the pot calling the kettle black. U cant match me bro.
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 07:23:49 PM
Wow, "32" HP over s 400rpm band because the stock tune apparently has a bad dead spot... 2-3 HP for 6,000 rpms, and <10 for the remaining 1,000 rpms
This is impressive???
***Sparta voice***
THIS.......IS.........NATURAL......ASPIRATION.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 22, 2015, 07:43:40 PM
U can put a cat on after the exhaust.
And what insecurities are those? :popcorn: Surely it had nothing to do with being tired of living in and throwing money away on renting apartments. If making threads about purchases = overcompensating for insecurities u are the pot calling the kettle black. U cant match me bro.
You can put a cat on after the exhaust (header I hope your meant). Then you don't have the power gains as stated. If it was the case that the cats were there, it wouldn't be stated that the codes for the O2 sensors being gone are disabled.
Char did a bunch of research and made a pretty fun car to drive moderately more fun to drive for a reasonable price. WTF is your problem with that? Is this an automotive enthusiast forum or a better housewives forum?
I don't recall myself ever trying to brag about spending money on a house in someone's build thread.... As far as your insecurities, its fairly obvious - but I will let you guess...
Quote from: r0tor on April 23, 2015, 06:03:41 AM
You can put a cat on after the exhaust (header I hope your meant). Then you don't have the power gains as stated. If it was the case that the cats were there, it wouldn't be stated that the codes for the O2 sensors being gone are disabled.
Char did a bunch of research and made a pretty fun car to drive moderately more fun to drive for a reasonable price. WTF is your problem with that? Is this an automotive enthusiast forum or a better housewives forum?
I don't recall myself ever trying to brag about spending money on a house in someone's build thread.... As far as your insecurities, its fairly obvious - but I will let you guess...
I wasnt bragging about spending money on a house, I was making the point that my priorities changed and buying + building a car to win the approval of some kid on a message board didnt fit in with them.
Char shit up my thread so Im just returning the favor. Note how nobody has shit up any of your build updates? Again the car isnt the issue here.
And dont be a coward, u put it out there, so follow through. What are my insecurities? Lay it all out on the table.
Quote from: 68_427 on April 21, 2015, 10:42:16 PM
Yeah people need to relax. I've spent over $2500 on ricer mods for my lesbo wagon.
You are self-aware and whimsical and pleasant to speak with. When you want to do something silly to your wagon, you nut up, make it happen, and own it.
Char has spent 15 pages and almost a year paying someone else to perform the easiest DIY "mod" this side of a Hello Kitty seat cover, all the while talking down to the other posters, bragging about his supposed vast wealth of automotive knowledge, and posting pictures of other people's projects.
Quote from: Tave on April 23, 2015, 06:45:01 AM
You are self-aware and whimsical and pleasant to speak with. When you want to do something silly to your wagon, you nut up, make it happen, and own it.
Char has spent 15 pages and almost a year paying someone else to perform the easiest DIY "mod" this side of a Hello Kitty seat cover, all the while talking down to the other posters, bragging about his supposed vast wealth of automotive knowledge, and posting pictures of other people's projects.
The problem with these type of statements is that you look ignorant when the actual facts come to light.
I haven't done any mods to my car since last year, with the exception of installing the Dinan intake over my EU airbox. The holdup? I don't own a rivet gun or a dremel tool, which I finally had access to. The car has had the intake manifold installed since April of LAST YEAR, shit I even ran it on the dyno afterwards (2 different times) and found that I had LOST power
(http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1037901&stc=1&d=1401767347)
(http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1037902&stc=1&d=1401767347)
From there it was a few months of shaking down issues and doing repairs so it wouldn't become issues - Coil packs/spark plugs, Water Pump/Thermostat and finally the problem was a bad valvetronic sensor/Vanos Solenoids (which originally didn't throw any codes) which is where my last update left off.
What you see now is a NEW dyno of al the mods that were already installed on the car.
Basically, if you're going to talk shit, at least know what the fuck you're talking about. That also begs another question - what have you done lately?
Quote from: r0tor on April 22, 2015, 07:23:49 PM
Wow, "32" HP over s 400rpm band because the stock tune apparently has a bad dead spot... 2-3 HP for 6,000 rpms, and <10 for the remaining 1,000 rpms
This is impressive???
It's not (and it's also not realistic either) basically the tuner lowers the Vtec engagement point changes the cam timing, and like you notice in the dyno there really isn't any peak gains to speak of.
Quote from: Char on April 23, 2015, 09:47:37 AM
The problem with these type of statements is that you look ignorant when the actual facts come to light.
I haven't done any mods to my car since last year, with the exception of installing the Dinan intake over my EU airbox. The holdup? I don't own a rivet gun or a dremel tool, which I finally had access to. The car has had the intake manifold installed since April of LAST YEAR, shit I even ran it on the dyno afterwards (2 different times) and found that I had LOST power
(http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1037901&stc=1&d=1401767347)
(http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1037902&stc=1&d=1401767347)
From there it was a few months of shaking down issues and doing repairs so it wouldn't become issues - Coil packs/spark plugs, Water Pump/Thermostat and finally the problem was a bad valvetronic sensor/Vanos Solenoids (which originally didn't throw any codes) which is where my last update left off.
What you see now is a NEW dyno of al the mods that were already installed on the car.
Basically, if you're going to talk shit, at least know what the fuck you're talking about. That also begs another question - what have you done lately?
Uh, those are identical dyno graph but simply offset.
You been had bruh.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 23, 2015, 10:09:17 AM
Uh, those are identical dyno graph but simply offset.
You been had bruh.
Same graph, different correction factors.
Quote from: Char on April 23, 2015, 10:24:38 AM
Same graph, different correction factors.
So if it's the same run, but the power is different?
Does it actually mean anything?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 23, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
So if it's the same run, but the power is different?
Does it actually mean anything?
Some people like STD numbers, I prefer SAE.
QuoteOverview:
Most of the stated horsepower numbers are "Corrected" values. The correction standards were developed to discount the observed horsepower readings taken at different locations and weather conditions. It is obvious that an engine builder in Colorado could not produce as much horsepower as a shop at sea level. There is just less oxygen for the engine to burn at the higher altitude. What are less obvious are the other weather condition effects on the engine. So in order to compensate for this all advertised horsepower is "corrected" to several different industry standards.
SAE:
"SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), USA. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 29.23 InHg (99 kPa) of dry air and 77 F (25°C). This SAE standard requires a correction for friction torque.
STD:
STD is Another power correction standard determined by the SAE. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 29.92 InHg (103.3 kPa) of dry air and 60 F (15.5°C). Because the reference conditions include higher pressure and cooler air than the SAE standard, these corrected power numbers will always be about 4 % higher than the SAE power numbers. Friction torque is handled in the same way as in the SAE standard."
Here is some quick math (using assumptions and round numbers):
STD:
Air Temperature: 60F
Absolute Pressure: 29.92 inches Hg
Relative Humidity: 0%
Relative Horsepower : 104.8%
Air Density: 1.223kg/m3
Relative Air Density: 99.8%
Density Altitude: 67feet
Virtual Temperature: 60F
Vapor Pressure: 0 inches Hg
Dyno Correction Factor: .955
SAE:
Air Temperature: 77F
Absolute Pressure: 29.23 inches Hg
Relative Humidity: 0%
Relative Horsepower : 100%
Air Density: 1.157kg/m3
Relative Air Density: 94.4%
Density Altitude: 1952feet
Virtual Temperature: 77F
Vapor Pressure: 0 inches Hg
Dyno Correction Factor: 1
When Char got here IMO he livened up the place with the crazy aggression. I can understand the initial hate but I'd think by now we'd be past that. But he has been on the right side of a few arguments.
And that E90 is sweet IMO.
FWIW I once thought Cougs was obnoxious. Not anymore after keeping an open mind.
It's the Internet who cares about some crazyness.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on April 23, 2015, 11:54:38 AM
When Char got here IMO he livened up the place with the crazy aggression. I can understand the initial hate but I'd think by now we'd be past that. But he has been on the right side of a few arguments.
And that E90 is sweet IMO.
FWIW I once thought Cougs was obnoxious. Not anymore after keeping an open mind.
It's the Internet who cares about some crazyness.
You BMW trolls sure stick together.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 23, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
You BMW trolls sure stick together.
Until we leave for VW!
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on April 23, 2015, 12:06:14 PM
Until we leave for VW!
Well, when it comes to trolling I think you are both ready for the move to VW. :lol:
Quote from: Char on April 23, 2015, 09:47:37 AM
Basically, if you're going to talk shit, at least know what the fuck you're talking about. That also begs another question - what have you done lately?
Banged an entire dorm of freshman hotties.
Quote from: Char on April 23, 2015, 09:47:37 AM
From there it was a few months of shaking down issues and doing repairs so it wouldn't become issues - Coil packs/spark plugs, Water Pump/Thermostat and finally the problem was a bad valvetronic sensor/Vanos Solenoids (which originally didn't throw any codes)
Mmmm that BMW reliability.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 22, 2015, 07:59:41 PM
***Sparta voice***
THIS.......IS.........NATURAL......ASPIRATION.
:lol: :clap:
Quote from: Char on April 23, 2015, 09:47:37 AM
blah blah blah--don't tell me what happened is what happened--blah blah blah
OK buddy whatevs
QuoteBasically, if you're going to talk shit, at least know what the fuck you're talking about. That also begs another question - what have you done lately?
Not much, but about a month ago one of my O2 sensors went rogue, so I took it to my tuner and he replaced it under warranty.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2rnyibr.jpg)
I drive a lot, so good fuel economy is nice to have. On the highway, depending on speed I can get around 31-35mpgs, and mixed with city driving it can go to about 26-27mpg if I can stay out of it. It's nice that I didn't have to compromise with this tune.
:rastaman:
My 540I got 25-26 mixed. :huh:
So........
"Coulda had a V8"
Everyone on the internet seems to do 40-50% better than EPA/Fuelly... I dont believe it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 30, 2015, 08:00:36 AM
Everyone on the internet seems to do 40-50% better than EPA/Fuelly... I dont believe it.
Are you talking about me?
I was shocked the 540 did as well as it did. The car I had afterwards(2000 saab 9-3 turbo) struggled to get 22-23 on a tankful.
I'm guessing the extra gear in the 5er and the lower RPM's from the torque of the V8 helped a lot.
1997 subie 2.2L gets 23mpg all day long, 26.5 on highway with cruise @80mph with full car
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 30, 2015, 08:00:36 AM
Everyone on the internet seems to do 40-50% better than EPA/Fuelly... I dont believe it.
Seriously... I struggle to hit 25 mpg in the Miata.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on April 30, 2015, 08:02:24 AM
Are you talking about me?
I was shocked the 540 did as well as it did. The car I had afterwards(2000 saab 9-3 turbo) struggled to get 22-23 on a tankful.
I'm guessing the extra gear in the 5er and the lower RPM's from the torque of the V8 helped a lot.
Im just speaking in general. Like with your 540i Fuelly is showing ~19 as the median MPG, and EPA says 16 on average for the 6MT and 5AT w/the 3:15 FD. So Im not saying u are lying, but I wouldnt use ur experience as some indicator of what I would see. On all my cars I always average pretty much exactly the EPA 50/50 rating, within the bounds of the city/hwy depending on what I'm doing. Like with the Z when I was working from home I would get the occasional 17-18 MPG tank. On road trips I could do no better than ~26 MPG at satisfactory speeds. So I always take peoples super high MPGs with a grain of salt, shit never works out for me that way.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 30, 2015, 08:00:36 AM
Everyone on the internet seems to do 40-50% better than EPA/Fuelly... I dont believe it.
I don't. I average about 20-21 MPG most of the time (about 19 MPG in the winter). Even on pure highway runs I don't do much better than 23/24 MPG.
Quote from: thecarnut on April 30, 2015, 08:11:57 AM
Seriously... I struggle to hit 25 mpg in the Miata.
I got a consistent 28mpg on mine, stock everything but tires.
Mine gets 47 mpg, bitches
My buddies 325i with similar mods gets about the same milage as char posted
Quote from: r0tor on May 01, 2015, 10:44:04 AM
My buddies 325i with similar mods gets about the same milage as char posted
Im sure it does, most dont
I picked up a set of OEM Blackline tailights.
Look like this - planning on picking up the Mtech Rear bumper(pictured) and performance spoiler(not pictured) too...after suspension + headers.
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=430560&stc=1&d=1284607057)
Also considered LCI read tail lights/CSL spoiler/Perfomance rear bumper
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d39/creaminz/wide6.jpg)
but that is too much flash for not a lot of go. Besides, I'm better of selling this car and buying an LCI :rolleyes:
Nice. I've always liked those smoked taillights. Looks subtle but not stupid like blacked out lights.
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=430682&stc=1&d=1284624403)
Too much? I think it may be too much.
LCI taillights (and everything) look so much better
Quote from: Char on May 14, 2015, 12:40:54 PM
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=430682&stc=1&d=1284624403)
Too much? I think it may be too much.
Yes, too much.
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 14, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
LCI taillights (and everything) look so much better
I do like them more, but I'm not huge on spending money on cosmetics. Fuck, now I'm going to source parts. The Bumper is Mtech/Msport, I need to find one.
I love ducktails (I have one on my car) but I don't like that one. I think it needs to be more squared off.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3989014990_139477e05d_b.jpg)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=352735&stc=1&d=1267083004)
Better? I prefer this one.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 14, 2015, 01:08:26 PM
I love ducktails (I have one on my car) but I don't like that one. I think it needs to be more squared off.
I like them too, but something more subtle would look better. In the pictures it looks huge and cartoonish.
Also that roof spoiler certainly adds to an overall(negative) appearance.
Less is more, in most cases when it comes to exterior styling.
Quote from: Char on May 14, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
I do like them more, but I'm not huge on spending money on cosmetics. Fuck, now I'm going to source parts. The Bumper is Mtech/Msport, I need to find one.
Na I feel that
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 14, 2015, 01:10:44 PM
I like them too, but something more subtle would look better. In the pictures it looks huge and cartoonish.
Also that roof spoiler certainly adds to an overall(negative) appearance.
Less is more, in most cases when it comes to exterior styling.
I didn't even notice the roof spoiler until you pointed it out. Never, not on my car. (same for M bumpers and Quad exhaust systems)
Quote from: Char on May 14, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3989014990_139477e05d_b.jpg)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=352735&stc=1&d=1267083004)
Better? I prefer this one.
Looks better...
Those roof spoilers look horrible, I thought euro guys where supposed to be better than the ricers but I've been seeing way to many of those things.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 14, 2015, 01:15:33 PM
Those roof spoilers look horrible, I thought euro guys where supposed to be better than the ricers but I've been seeing way to many of those things.
LOL, no, they are worse. 3 times the rice, and they think it's ok because it has a name brand on it.
Quote from: Char on May 14, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3989014990_139477e05d_b.jpg)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=352735&stc=1&d=1267083004)
Better? I prefer this one.
Much better. I prefer it as well.
Just ordered some Rogue Engineering Transmission mounts - should reduce/eliminate some of the trans movement during more aggressive driving. Stock ones are poop.
(http://www.benzboost.com/images/imported/2013/02/transmount8-1.jpg)
(http://www.benzboost.com/images/imported/2013/02/transmount9-1.jpg)
M3 Mounts are an upgrade, but M3 guys upgrade to these too, so why not go one step better? I had these before on my last car, and they worked well.
Also...so does this look ok? Fuck you guys got me on exterior mods.
Oem spoiler
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=354516&stc=1&d=1267579293)
(http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr12/RuthDanielle1222/rear1.jpg).
But not CSL
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=253360&stc=1&d=1238390483)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=841092&stc=1&d=1365108133)
Unless I do the LCI taillights and trunk...?
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0531/8245/products/e90_DD_csl_trunk_03_1024x1024.jpg?v=1405012323)
Ugh, what a waste of money. I still need more go fast parts!
I like the first car the most, smoked tails with the OEM spoiler. The giant ducktail gives it a case of unflattering whale tail.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 15, 2015, 03:39:56 PM
I like the first car the most, smoked tails with the OEM spoiler. The giant ducktail gives it a case of unflattering whale tail.
Pff, Channeling my inner Porsche...until I can afford one.
Quote from: Char on May 15, 2015, 03:48:50 PM
Pff, Channeling my inner Porsche...until I can afford one.
Porsche whale tails are nice because they're squared off. The E90 looks pretty blocky (at least from the rear) so putting a big, swoopy ducktail on it looks weird IMO. It'd look better if it were squared off as well.
Also I like the non LCI lights over the LCI lights, especially tinted. Just IMO though.
Fuck CSL, the OEM lip looks good. The taillights are the shittiest part of the pre-LCI E90, the stock ones look bad, the blacklines also look bad. LCI would be the way to go, but I wouldn't really be down to drop that kind of dough on it either.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 15, 2015, 03:53:52 PM
Also I like the non LCI lights over the LCI lights, especially tinted. Just IMO though.
Your O is wrong dammit
LCI lights look so squinty.
inb4 das racist
I just don't like the shape of the Pre Lci anymore -even in all red. I was ruined when I saw the difference in person, but by then it was too late, I bought my car.
(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/3093/l617.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2605/5840542110_62c9b7cb2d_z.jpg)
But No, this is secondary to wheels, headers and other minor bits.
Yeah they don't look good in all red, but I really like them smoked with the red and white.
All red LCI looks nice though.
The CSL ducktail is terrible looking on the e90
- definitely avoid duck tails
- pre lci rears look just fine too me
- smoked look good, the small spoilers look good
- looking at these pics made me miss my E90
YOU STILL ROLLIN ON STOCKERS?
Every one gives me shit for doing cosmetics before fixing my engine, but at least I'll look fly on the side of the road. :lol:
There is only one wheel I want -
APEX ARC -8 17X9 ET30 Hyper Black
(these are 18)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i77/koreez88/my%20car/IMG_1702ps.jpg)
These are 17
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1002804&stc=1&d=1396289623)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=948170&stc=1&d=1386089637)
The 17" wheels are 16.55lbs each (compared to the over 30lbs for the stock wheels) And being 17" wheels, tires are cheap.
before that though, I'm planning on picking up the best shift knob for a BMW - a ZHP knob.
(http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/418804_x600.jpg)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=509028&stc=1&d=1302645055)
And hopefully headers and a retune!!
Hmm... I'm going to forward those wheels to my buddy. He was looking at some CSL style wheels of questionable quality. These might be a bit more legit.
Quote from: r0tor on May 21, 2015, 09:54:25 AM
Hmm... I'm going to forward those wheels to my buddy. He was looking at some CSL style wheels of questionable quality. These might be a bit more legit.
Most popular track wheels for BMWs. My buddy picked up a set during the group buy they had for his Z4M coupe.
16.5 lbs is good for that size. My wheels are 15lbs but only 7.5" wide.
Yeah that's a good weight for 17x9. That's how Mich the wheels I want weigh as well.
My friend has some arc wheels on his M5. It looks pretty nice.
Im a big fan of 16 spoke BBS reps. My dream wheels are NSX Zanardis
Quote from: 68_427 on May 28, 2015, 04:12:59 AM
16.5 lbs is good for that size. My wheels are 15lbs but only 7.5" wide.
What would Taylor Swift want dude? Girth - go wide.
9.5" here :praise:
Car is getting a bunch of stuff today
- 255/40/17 tires for the front (currently 225s) for a full square setup. The car has 17x8.5" Style 161 wheels
- Silicone intake hose - more sounds a bit more power (not much)
- ZHP shift knob just because
- Ultimate pedals (http://www.ultimatepedals.com (http://www.ultimatepedals.com)) a gift from another forum member. $200 for a brand new set, why not?!
- Probably biting the bullet and ordering the headers/tune/Simon tool
OR
-Ground Control Full coilover kit (street/school kit)
-Misc maintenance items, including Giubo and maybe 335i IS motormounts (this is pushing my budget here)
-SN2010 Helmet
Comments or suggestions welcome.
"Comments or suggestions welcome."
Are you sure about that?
:popcorn:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 11, 2015, 10:58:16 AM
"Comments or suggestions welcome."
Are you sure about that?
You can't hurt me.
Lyl, this is worst minivan ever
Lel.
Ground Control coilovers + silicon intake hose to make more powrah! I can't even make this shit up :lol:
GCs + Konis are prob the most legit coilover out there short of PSSs or KWs or shit of that nature
Im more :confused: about the dude who called everyone idiots asking those same folks for direction on his build
But i aint here to start shit, I did enough damage here, just want to see where this goes.
Quote from: MrH on June 11, 2015, 12:00:16 PM
Lel.
Ground Control coilovers + silicon intake hose to make more powrah! I can't even make this shit up :lol:
Wait what?
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=809/CA=165 (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=809/CA=165)
Where does it state it adds power? Where did I?
intake silencer delete (more for sound than power)
(http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Project-Cars/Project-E46-M3/i-nzQ9kFW/2/L/E46%20M3%20Graph%202-L.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 11, 2015, 12:16:11 PM
GCs + Konis are prob the most legit coilover out there short of PSSs or KWs or shit of that nature
Im more :confused: about the dude who called everyone idiots asking those same folks for direction on his build
But i aint here to start shit, I did enough damage here, just want to see where this goes.
I only have enough for one or the other right now. I'm leaning towards the headers - and next swoop do the coilovers and wheels.
I considered the Bilstein PSS10, but the spring rate was too soft AND it's higher cost overall - Camber plates are not included.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590114 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590114)
(http://www.treffbilder.de/images/75427291/t0h_5608_1oct2.jpg)
(http://www.treffbilder.de/images/75427160/t0h_5606_1jyn2.jpg%5Bimg%5D)http://www.treffbilder.de/images/16958001/dng_4041_1wpn2.jpg (http://www.treffbilder.de/images/16958001/dng_4041_1wpn2.jpg)[/img]
Quote from: Char on June 11, 2015, 10:53:11 AM
Car is getting a bunch of stuff today
- 255/40/17 tires for the front (currently 225s) for a full square setup. The car has 17x8.5" Style 161 wheels
- Silicone intake hose - more sounds a bit more power (not much)
- ZHP shift knob just because
- Ultimate pedals (http://www.ultimatepedals.com (http://www.ultimatepedals.com)) a gift from another forum member. $200 for a brand new set, why not?!
- Probably biting the bullet and ordering the headers/tune/Simon tool
OR
-Ground Control Full coilover kit (street/school kit)
-Misc maintenance items, including Giubo and maybe 335i IS motormounts (this is pushing my budget here)
-SN2010 Helmet
Comments or suggestions welcome.
Congrats.That is getting to be a very nice E90.
Quote from: Char on June 11, 2015, 12:21:42 PM
Where does it state it adds power? Where did I?
Quote from: Char on June 11, 2015, 10:53:11 AM
- Silicone intake hose - more sounds a bit more power (not much)
:popcorn:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 11, 2015, 12:42:39 PM
Where did I say the coilovers make more power. I'll wait.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 11, 2015, 12:39:37 PM
Congrats.That is getting to be a very nice E90.
Buying is one thing, putting all this one is another...Still need M3 subframe bushings, M3 Strut bracing, front swaybar and wheels!
Quote from: Char on June 11, 2015, 12:54:06 PM
Buying is one thing, putting all this one is another...Still need M3 subframe bushings, M3 Strut bracing, front swaybar and wheels!
Pretty embarrassing, but I have a couple sweet mods that I bought and never installed. :mask:
Hell it took me 3 months to get my diff installed. I got tired of looking at it sitting next to my bed one day and got it done.
I think 255s all around may be a bit much? May be too stable to have fun with the back (given the power).
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 11, 2015, 01:16:53 PM
I think 255s all around may be a bit much? May be too stable to have fun with the back (given the power).
ZSP already comes with a staggered 225/255 - I'm just upsizing the fronts as well.
Quote from: thecarnut on June 11, 2015, 01:07:45 PM
Pretty embarrassing, but I have a couple sweet mods that I bought and never installed. :mask:
Hell it took me 3 months to get my diff installed. I got tired of looking at it sitting next to my bed one day and got it done.
You're officially "That guy" I feel the pain. I'm sure I'll be staring at this stuff for a while.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 11, 2015, 01:16:53 PM
I think 255s all around may be a bit much? May be too stable to have fun with the back (given the power).
That is not a bad size. I had 225/245 on the Z, weighs about the same. At the limit that thing understeered a good bit. The grip was def at odds with the balance of the chassis. But the VDS was super picky about front/rear tire size bias, and the car came with brand new tires. So I left it alone.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 11, 2015, 12:39:37 PM
Congrats.That is getting to be a very nice E90.
Ohh why don't you just blow him already...........
:lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 11, 2015, 02:17:08 PM
Ohh why don't you just blow him already...........
:lol:
FY
You modding jap crap is super cool but this sucks in some way however. I see.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 11, 2015, 02:27:33 PM
FY
You modding jap crap is super cool but this sucks in some way however. I see.
You bmw boys never could take a joke.
Headers ordered, I will install them and drive down to Active for a final dyno tune.
Just need to order the ZHP knob and call it done.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 11, 2015, 02:35:41 PM
You bmw boys never could take a joke.
Can hardly blame them though, what with VW taking away all their club members and such.
Quote from: Char on June 11, 2015, 12:27:29 PM
I considered the Bilstein PSS10, but the spring rate was too soft AND it's higher cost overall - Camber plates are not included.
Your metric on whether the springs are too soft is the fucking Carousel at the ring?! :wtf:
Quote from: MrH on June 12, 2015, 07:28:09 AM
Your metric on whether the springs are too soft is the fucking Carousel at the ring?! :wtf:
Did you read what the OP posted in the thread? Goodness, I can't tell if you're just this stupid or...
As far as I know, Bilstein uses progressive springs vs linear like Ground Control and TCKline - also the spring rates are actually listed:
Bilstein PSS10
Front: 385 lb/in
Rear: 615 lb/in
TC Kline Coils
Front: 350 lb/in
Rear: 700 lb/in
Herp.
QuoteThe car is just too low, even on the highest settings. Of course I did want it to be lower than the stock suspension (I did not even have the M suspension which is already 10mm lower), but it should not look totally slammed as it does now. Of course, optics are only one consideration (and are very subjective), but the practical disadvantages of the present ride height are considerable:
It seems to me - and my garage confirmed this - that the springs are far too weak for the car, resulting in the weight of the car compressing the springs so much that even at the highest setting it sits far too low, and has too little spring travel left. Most likely this is a result of Bilstein offering the identical kit for all 3 series, be it a 316i E90 or a 335i E93 - which all differ greatly in weight. In the German car forums I encountered a few other people with the same problem.
Derp.
Wat are the motion ratios and the Bilstein's rates
Progressive springs can be great if the rates are right.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 12, 2015, 08:43:49 AM
Wat are the motion ratios and the Bilstein's rates
Progressive springs can be great if the rates are right.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=739949 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=739949)
QuoteAs Orb has posted:
The motion ratio for the car:
• Front: 0.96^2
• Rear: 0.563^2
Calculation for wheel rates:
Coil spring rate * Motion ratio = Wheel spring rate
Stock 335i example.....
E.g. 145lb/in * 0.96^2 = 134 lb/in
E.g. 460 lb/in * 0.563^2 = 146 lb/in
= good balance.
Stock M3 e92:
• Front: 160 lb/in * 0.96^2 = 147lb/in
• Rear: 550 lb/in * 0.563^2 = 174lb/in
Quote from: Char on June 12, 2015, 08:42:50 AM
Did you read what the OP posted in the thread? Goodness, I can't tell if you're just this stupid or...
As far as I know, Bilstein uses progressive springs vs linear like Ground Control and TCKline - also the spring rates are actually listed:
Bilstein PSS10
Front: 385 lb/in
Rear: 615 lb/in
TC Kline Coils
Front: 350 lb/in
Rear: 700 lb/in
Herp.
Derp.
If they're progressive springs, they don't have just a single rate...
Quote from: MrH on June 12, 2015, 10:06:38 AM
If they're progressive springs, they don't have just a single rate...
Of course, and I believe that is the max rate. Look, if you can get me a deal on the Coilovers - I'll buy them. The dampers are monotube and obviously Bilstein knows their stuff, but I would be swapping out the springs for Linear ones with a slightly higher rate and adding camber platers. At full MSRP, that is like
$2500+
I'm thinking about the Bilstien PSS system with Progressive Spings (400/600) and a good set of camber plates.
I have the headers here (had them for a while actually) looking to get them on soon.
I installed the intake silencer delete, revs better, sounds a bit better, probably 3-5hp at the most.
Rogue Transmission mounts are waiting on me to decide what I'm going to do with the engine mounts, before they both go in. I'll probably do transmission fluid at the same time (Redline D4 seems to be the go-to choice)
Ultimate pedals are here, but not installed. I want to do it with the ZHP shift knob, but I want to do the shift knob with the CDV delete and transmission mounts (which I want to do as stated above earlier...sigh)
My mechanic wants to do my oil pan gasket, just buy materials, so I think this will be a good moment to do the oil filter housing gasket perhaps.
Car needs new rear brake pads
Car will be getting M3 front control arms (more caster, camber, and better 'feel') and rear subframe bushings, but this is in the next month or two.
As mentioned before, suspension will be a huge front swaybar, amberplates (holy balls they are expensive) and Bilstien B14 (non damper adjustable) coilovers with linear springs...add in track pads and light wheels (eventually...) and I'd say we would be pretty much done.
Do you track this car?
:popcorn:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 10, 2015, 06:02:24 AM
Do you track this car?
It's going to be my STX autocross car and probably see a few HPDE's, why?
Quote from: Char on July 10, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
It's going to be my STX autocross car and probably see a few HPDE's, why?
I'm writing a book.
Just saw you mentioned some mods that were track oriented, so was just wondering.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 10, 2015, 03:45:23 PM
Just saw you mentioned some mods that were track oriented, so was just wondering.
Like what? Brake pads or coilovers? I like the coilovers for the flexibility to pick my spring rate and ride height, I don't care for adjustable dampers.
Did a bunch of upgrades:
Oil pan gasket
Oil filter housing gasket
Flushed brakes and clutch
Oil change (of course)
Center support bushing replaced
Headers installed
335is motor mounts installed (supposedly stiffer)
Rogue Engineering transmission mounts
Clutch delay valve deleted
(Found out the car had SS brake lines)
The car drives....like wow, wven with the software not optimized, the power is just amazing - top end feels 335i strong and pulls all the way tp 7000rpm. Can't wait for a retune and dyno, hopefully over 24x-25xwhp...
Congrats on somehow fitting BMW motor mounts to your Mercury Villager.
That's great and all, but 335i top end ain't saying much. The N54 wheezes up high
Yea its all about that low end/midrange. I found the top end of the 335i I drove to be pretty disappointing.
Quote from: Char on August 29, 2015, 08:09:36 PM
Did a bunch of upgrades:
Oil pan gasket
Oil filter housing gasket
Flushed brakes and clutch
Oil change (of course)
Center support bushing replaced
Headers installed
335is motor mounts installed (supposedly stiffer)
Rogue Engineering transmission mounts
Clutch delay valve deleted
(Found out the car had SS brake lines)
The car drives....like wow, wven with the software not optimized, the power is just amazing - top end feels 335i strong and pulls all the way tp 7000rpm. Can't wait for a retune and dyno, hopefully over 24x-25xwhp...
I didn't realize I was upgrading my car every time I changed the oil. WOO!
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on August 29, 2015, 08:33:11 PM
Congrats on somehow fitting BMW motor mounts to your Mercury Villager.
It's a Nissan Quest, and it took a ton of fabrication.
Quote from: CALL_911 on August 29, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
That's great and all, but 335i top end ain't saying much. The N54 wheezes up high
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 30, 2015, 05:05:24 AM
Yea its all about that low end/midrange. I found the top end of the 335i I drove to be pretty disappointing.
I said that too before I was using one as a loner. No reason to shift at 7000rpm, I was shifting at about 6000rpm - but the grunt from 3-5000 was amazing and started to taper off till then, it's still pretty damn fast.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 30, 2015, 01:42:32 PM
I didn't realize I was upgrading my car every time I changed the oil. WOO!
It was the good stuff, imported from Japan.
And now for some pictures.
Pre: Notice how dirty it is. :rolleyes:
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/lillyautomotive/Sam%20take%202/IMG_20150825_022408_zpszsehbyef.jpg)
You can see some of the stuff here
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/lillyautomotive/Sam%20take%202/20150825_021440_zps9cqlfcmv.jpg)
Stock manifolds:
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/lillyautomotive/Sam%20take%202/20150825_205341_zpskh0dqgbs.jpg)
Oil Pan off
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/lillyautomotive/Sam%20take%202/20150825_211954_zpsdil9t7hh.jpg)
Header and mounts in
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah144/lillyautomotive/Sam%20take%202/20150828_125100_zpsvlxol1tp.jpg)
There are a bunch of pics of stuff being done, but here are a few. Car needs a bath badly, I think I'll take a nice drive to the wash and do it. ;)
Sweet. I'm a fan
:(
?
Vaguebooking
Warped head from a blown HG from the weekly water pump failure? :lol:
Naw seriously though what happened.
I cringe at the ROI.
Got wasted by a new beetle. Cuz toon blew up
Totalled. :(
:golfclap:
What.
Wot
m8
ok heres the ting take a corner at 35 or 45racing a ***** had a blow out sled into the crub hit 2 fents 2 burshes 4 brick and a trash can but anywho now I have a load cam knock it sounds like but I'm not sure my oil pan may have got pushed back alittle so I dont know if my oil pump got damgaed and itsn't get oil to the top of the cams does anyone have any ideas what else it could be and yea I spanked the little rice hatch back???
That is unfortunate.
Sorry man.
Fuuuucccckkk that sucks dude, what happened?
Pls tell me u had full coverage.
I think VW is having a sale right now, 0% interest.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 28, 2015, 07:33:08 AM
I think VW is having a sale right now, 0% interest.
Do they have any Honda Elements for sale?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 28, 2015, 05:34:31 AM
Fuuuucccckkk that sucks dude, what happened?
Pls tell me u had full coverage.
+1
Was it your fault?
This thread is pure vaguebooking.
Quote from: Laconian on October 28, 2015, 10:58:48 AM
This thread is pure vaguebooking.
vaguebookery was invented to get attention while hiding mistakes
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1186779&page=7 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1186779&page=7)
Here you go.
My fault. Insurance is offering me next to nothing on a car I paid over twice as much for, and uh...losing all the parts I put on.
Now you know.
I have stated value policies, for exactly that reason. No insure company will pay for aftermarket parts on a standard replacement cost policy without an endorsement for the higher value of a modified car.
Stated value, I'll never have anything else.
Also I lol'd at this one.
"Pics of the damage, or did I miss it? Dyno graph of how it sits now?"
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 28, 2015, 05:40:50 PM
I have stated value policies, for exactly that reason. No insure company will pay for aftermarket parts on a standard replacement cost policy without an endorsement for the higher value of a modified car.
Stated value, I'll never have anything else.
Well for one thing, they tried to write my car up as a base and it's a Sport (ZSP) and was compared to base model cars which is what they based their evaluation on. I sent him a counter of all Sport model cars 11 -17k.
Fuck them.
they always start with a lowball offer, lots of people take it.
Of course they atart low, and you can normally negotiate up, but he won't get a dime for any of those aftermarket parts.
That totally sucks man. Very sorry.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 28, 2015, 06:16:20 PM
Of course they atart low, and you can normally negotiate up, but he won't get a dime for any of those aftermarket parts.
I'm trying. I already found a replacememt. Msport 328i 6speed.
How is it totalled..... did you bend the frame?
It doesn't look that bad imo... if you could live without airbags just replace the wheel, rad support and bumper and you're probably good to go.
Damn dude, that sucks.
Just remember, E90>E92
Quote from: Char on October 28, 2015, 07:05:52 PM
I'm trying. I already found a replacememt. Msport 328i 6speed.
Why don't you buy something else, I'm saying that seriously. It's rarely fun owning the same car over and over again.
It's rarely ever as good the second time around. Especially for something as quasi run of the mill as an E90 328i (no swipes). At least give a G35 a try like you have always wanted to.
The G is too thirsty, unless I get this new job, my commute is almost 100mi per day.
(http://velgenwheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2-E92-MSport-LCI-Velgen-VMB5-Matte-Silver.jpg)
Can't think of another 6er coupe that doesn't look like poop inside and out. The Mustang looked terrible on the inside, the Camaro was the same, the FRS is slow and pricey for what it is. What else?
Ive always liked the genesis v6 coupe, but the interior is very dated imo. The obvious low.point of that car.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 28, 2015, 07:25:42 PM
How is it totalled..... did you bend the frame?
Bumper cover, bumper support, hood, grille inserts, upper and lower core support. Plus labor and repainting. It's an easy 7K in work.
Quote from: Char on October 28, 2015, 08:29:57 PM
The G is too thirsty, unless I get this new job, my commute is almost 100mi per day.
(http://velgenwheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2-E92-MSport-LCI-Velgen-VMB5-Matte-Silver.jpg)
Can't think of another 6er coupe that doesn't look like poop inside and out. The Mustang looked terrible on the inside, the Camaro was the same, the FRS is slow and pricey for what it is. What else?
VW Eos
That particular E92 looks good, but I don't think they've aged well, while the E90 (at least the LCI) still looks good- better than the F30
Your E90 was specced exactly how I would have wanted mine if I had the chance to get one. RIP
Mite be time to do that 4 banger life bro. N52 mileage is not much better.
BRZ might be the wave man. N52 E90 might have more around town torque but I feel like on pure WHP/lb, the cars are matched with bolt ons. Plus it is a much less compromised platform.... over 500lb less weight and a much lower center of gravity. Most importantly though, based on what you say about your driving you should be able to hit 30+ MPG combined on your commute no problem. It is loud, a little cheap and def less practical but it seems like the kind of car that will put a smile on your face. My $0.02
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 29, 2015, 04:38:15 AM
BRZ might be the wave man. N52 E90 might have more around town torque but I feel like on pure WHP/lb, the cars are matched with bolt ons. Plus it is a much less compromised platform.... over 500lb less weight and a much lower center of gravity. Most importantly though, based on what you say about your driving you should be able to hit 30+ MPG combined on your commute no problem. It is loud, a little cheap and def less practical but it seems like the kind of car that will put a smile on your face. My $0.02
They are totally matched with bolt ons, but the E90 really did get 30ish hwy and high high, 20s on my drive (almost 30ish) and it was powerful on a non optimized tune.
Insurance would be lower on the BRZ, but I really like the E92, and I committed to buy that Msport (Mtec bumpers, trim) and the price is very reasonable for how rare the car is, plus service records.
Change is hard.
I know I've given you some shit in the past but that you owned up to this being your fault to strangers shows a lot of maturity. I'm impressed. Sorry to hear about the car though. It sucks, but you still have your life and are able to have more car shenanigans.
Hopefully the next car will be better than the last.
Quote from: Char on October 29, 2015, 08:26:43 AM
They are totally matched with bolt ons, but the E90 really did get 30ish hwy and high high, 20s on my drive (almost 30ish) and it was powerful on a non optimized tune.
Insurance would be lower on the BRZ, but I really like the E92, and I committed to buy that Msport (Mtec bumpers, trim) and the price is very reasonable for how rare the car is, plus service records.
Change is hard.
Got a link to it? Don't worry, I'm not going to buy it out from under you. Just curious.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 28, 2015, 07:25:42 PM
How is it totalled..... did you bend the frame?
Airbags are not cheap. Add in the headliner, related components, paint work, body work, miscellaneous repairs, and a likely supplemental claim, it's easily not worth fixing it in the insurance company's eyes.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on October 29, 2015, 09:24:52 AM
you owned up to this being your fault to strangers shows a lot of maturity. I'm impressed. Sorry to hear about the car though. It sucks, but you still have your life and are able to have more car shenanigans.
+1
Quote from: MrH on October 29, 2015, 10:11:12 AM
Got a link to it? Don't worry, I'm not going to buy it out from under you. Just curious.
Have fun driving to FL
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18745532#post18745532 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18745532#post18745532)
Quote from: Char on October 29, 2015, 01:35:37 PM
Have fun driving to FL
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18745532#post18745532 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18745532#post18745532)
Funny you mention that. I'm actually in Florida right now :lol:
Looks good. Seems like a lot for a car with 63k miles though.
Way too much $$$ plus it looks absolutely terrible lowered.
Yea it looks pretty awful lowered
E90 335i?
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 29, 2015, 02:26:41 PM
E90 335i?
Turbo motor is a beast, in a bad way
$19K is a LOT for that IMO, but you want what you want. It kind of sucks because you need a car right now, but it would be better IMO to take some time with this purchase. Speaking from experience it's never as good the second time and I'm weary of buying even mildly modded cars.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 29, 2015, 02:26:01 PM
Yea it looks pretty awful lowered
Wat.
I expected to get that from Cougs but not you.
In any case I think it looks clean and the lowering looks good but it's too much money as everyone else has said.
It will 17K, comes with the stock 18s and hopefully stock springs.
Msports are rare. Very Rare. I found 1 sedan (328i Msport) in Tx...and there was a guy here locally selling his for 24k (not ready to pay that much) And obviously, I want a manual - the good news is he sent me pages of service notes, dealer maintained 1 owner. With a E9x, I know the shit to expect, with a X brand car, who knows.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 29, 2015, 02:26:41 PM
E90 335i?
I rail on VW for fucking up, but this car is a close second. N55 is much better, but I like N/A.
And it will be lowered, it will be full bolt on and it will have a proper set of 17" wheels.
Cars are meant to be driven, this will be no different. The Performance Exhaust will be sold too. Sounds amazing on stock headers, but terribly loud with headers and adds like 0 hp.
For that kind of cash you could get the cleanest 330i ZHP E46 that you could find. That's a beauty IMO.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 29, 2015, 03:48:59 PM
For that kind of cash you could get the cleanest 330i ZHP E46 that you could find. That's a beauty IMO.
N52 > M54. Honestly, the E90 gives up nothing to the ZHP.
Yea its like the B series vs K series..... no contest even with the same displacement
E46 looks better, I'm guessing it's a bit lighter too. Interior is looks better too.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on October 29, 2015, 08:02:05 PM
E46 looks better, I'm guessing it's a bit lighter too. Interior is looks better too.
It's lighter, but the interior is not better.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 29, 2015, 02:50:38 PM
Wat.
I expected to get that from Cougs but not you.
In any case I think it looks clean and the lowering looks good but it's too much money as everyone else has said.
Pretty much agree with this. Looks good, but 19k seems pricey.
Quote from: Char on October 29, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
It will 17K, comes with the stock 18s and hopefully stock springs.
Msports are rare. Very Rare. I found 1 sedan (328i Msport) in Tx...and there was a guy here locally selling his for 24k (not ready to pay that much) And obviously, I want a manual - the good news is he sent me pages of service notes, dealer maintained 1 owner. With a E9x, I know the shit to expect, with a X brand car, who knows.
17k sounds more reasonable. And yeah at some point if it is exactly the car you want with exactly the right options, sometimes it is worth paying a bit over market rather than just hunting for the best "deal."
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 30, 2015, 06:22:49 AM
17k sounds more reasonable. And yeah at some point if it is exactly the car you want with exactly the right options, sometimes it is worth paying a bit over market rather than just hunting for the best "deal."
I want an E9x, I want N/A and if I could justify the 10k increase, poor fuel economy and potential expensive repairs, An M3 would be the ticket. Bit I'll be cheap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-3-Series-328I-SEDAN-SPORT-6-SPEED-ALLOY-WHEELS-/371470831909?forcerrptr=true&hash=item567d631125:g:YhYAAOSwI-BWKsvr&item=371470831909 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-3-Series-328I-SEDAN-SPORT-6-SPEED-ALLOY-WHEELS-/371470831909?forcerrptr=true&hash=item567d631125:g:YhYAAOSwI-BWKsvr&item=371470831909)
You nerds are complaining the car looks terrible lowered? the fuck? That's not even low.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 02, 2015, 02:12:05 AM
You nerds are complaining the car looks terrible lowered? the fuck? That's not even low.
On CarSPIN, modifications are :nono:
The concept of individualizing and enhancing a car beyond OEM spec is verboten. It's really bizarre.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 02, 2015, 06:00:04 AM
On CarSPIN, modifications are :nono:
The concept of individualizing and enhancing a car beyond OEM spec is verboten. It's really bizarre.
I don't know where you came up with that. Since 98% of all the posts here are not even auto related, I don't see how there could be such a outspoken consensus against anything automotive around here.
How is the FRS and Gen voupe? Mustang V6?
I actually think the Genesis coupe (post facelift) V6 is a really cool car. From what I've read though it could use quite a bit of polishing.
Genesis Coupe is a low key gem if you can get past the looks and weight. It's basically a mainstreamer grade G37.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqaWYn3eDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqaWYn3eDU)
Lot of aftermarket support too. I just personally can't get past the looks. It's just not a good looking car to me.
FRS is pretty great, but no torque.
The Genny coupe has a terrible shifter clutch relationship, and mediocre steering
I really feel like the BRZ will be a good match for dude. The torque problem can be rectified and the chassis is unmatched for the money.
I'm trying to be open minded about what I want/can afford.
Let's be honest here - we all love cars, but is $500/mo (payment +insurance) really reasonable to drive one? It seems...silly.
I know I'll mod it, but right now I just feel like I'm in a funk - like it really doesn't matter anymore and maybe something boring/cheap would be a better option. Am I just depressed or
The answer...
...is Miata.
Quote from: Char on November 08, 2015, 11:04:49 AMAm I just depressed or
No, just growing up. Priorities change. Not to say everyone who mods cars is immature. But if it doesn't feel right to go right back into it, it's probably for a very good reason.
Or just get a cheap fun car?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 08, 2015, 11:33:15 AM
The answer...
...is Miata.
+1
Cheap to start , unlimited mod options
Quote from: HotRodPilot on November 08, 2015, 11:46:53 AM
Or just get a cheap fun car?
Like?
I have a Chevy Cruz as a rental - literally one of the worst cars I've driven. The brakes are spongy, and really don't grab unless you step into it like a panic stop, the steering is typical FWD light and darty and the engine - oh wow. Literally the worst part about this car is the hamster under the hood, it's unimpressive my all metrics. It vibrates so much with the A/C on, I rather be hot than deal with it, not to mention it drains all 5hp the gutless wonder has to spare.
I stood on the pedal and watched the car accelerate 1 mph per second from 60-70mph. There is no power anywhere except for the first 10-20mph amd it falls on it's face. The car is so gutless, you cant overtake anyone anywhere -ever. The transmission is constantly downshifting to put you somewhere in the 'powerband' (I use that term very loosely) and never finds it. The car requires almost full throttle for any manuver, and as a result turns WORSE fuel economy than my 3er.
Windows have no auto up feature and it sits too high up. What an epic pos.
So please, name a fun 4 door/coupe. Accord Sport maybe?
Keep your tits on. I don't think anyone was gonna suggest a Chevy Cruz rental as a cheap fun car. :wtf:
If a Cruze is one of the worst you've driven, you must not have driven many cars
Quote from: CALL_911 on November 08, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
If a Cruze is one of the worst you've driven, you must not have driven many cars
I can't see a Cruz being worse than that minivan or whateverthehell he had before.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2015, 02:00:03 PM
Keep your tits on. I don't think anyone was gonna suggest a Chevy Cruz rental as a cheap fun car. :wtf:
Thibking about driving it makes me angry. It's so slow - like irredeemably slow. I have a light foot, so to struggle to get 27mpg on this car (redout is constantly way below that) because its transmission is constantly hunting for the truths of the universe is even more annoying.
I just...I don't know. I'll be 30 soon, and if this is what I have to look forward to, I don't like it.
And the thought of paying 500+/mo for the 'privilege' to drive 100mi a day (2 hrs basically) plus gas just...is aggravating me too.
I'm just really angry about a lot of things. Thia far as job I took recently, the bullshit insurance offer, the fact that the Patriots and my fantasy football team isn't doing what I want, and now the desire to want to do other things. Maybe I'll find peace inside myself, or maybe I'll just keep terrorizing you all here. Who knows.
Quote from: Char on November 08, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
Thibking about driving it makes me angry. It's so slow - like irredeemably slow. I have a light foot, so to struggle to get 27mpg on this car (redout is constantly way below that) because its transmission is constantly hunting for the truths of the universe is even more annoying.
I just...I don't know. I'll be 30 soon, and if this is what I have to look forward to, I don't like it.
Oh come on, don't be so dramatic. Turning 30 doesn't mean you have to buy a Chevy Cruze?
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Oh come on, don't be so dramatic. Turning 30 doesn't mean you have to buy a Chevy Cruze?
I don't want to get old. :(
Mercury Cougar
E46, Si, rx-8, g35/37, used pony car, wrx/sti, Evo,
E36, Svt focus, fc rx-7, Sentra ser,
Quote from: HotRodPilot on November 08, 2015, 02:57:29 PM
E46, Si, rx-8, g35/37, used pony car, wrx/sti, Evo,
E36, Svt focus, fc rx-7, Sentra ser,
Half of those cars aren't reliable dds.
lolwut.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 08, 2015, 03:32:50 PM
lolwut.
Oh what earth is a Evo, Ratted out B15, and Rotary powered anything considered reliable daily drivers?
Quote from: Char on November 08, 2015, 03:15:39 PM
Half of those cars aren't reliable dds.
Lol, which leaves half that are.
And a rental Chevy Cruze is hardly representative of what's available. It's overweight and auto- 2 traits you would not go for. Obvious choice is the Civic Si.... 8th gen for low $$$, 9th gen if you need more torque and possibly a warranty. Lot of other options too... Focus/Fiesta ST, FRS/BRZ, etc. Also kind of funny to dismiss cars for not being reliable as a BMW dude but w/e.
Personally I think you are attaching way too much gravitas to this decision. End of the day it's just a car. Not hard to find something reliable and fun if you don't tie your car to your purpose for being or image or w/e. Nobody cares. A freeing realization that comes with age :ohyeah:
Summit?
Can accept 4g63 and I'm assuming EVO I drivetrain. Practical, reliable, cheap to insure. CASE CLOSE
Quote from: CALL_911 on November 08, 2015, 02:04:16 PM
If a Cruze is one of the worst you've driven, you must not have driven many cars
Cruzes are pretty nice, but it's not designed to be fast and the trans runs to 6th as soon as possible
Quote from: Char on November 08, 2015, 02:07:00 PM
Thibking about driving it makes me angry. It's so slow - like irredeemably slow. I have a light foot, so to struggle to get 27mpg on this car (redout is constantly way below that) because its transmission is constantly hunting for the truths of the universe is even more annoying.
I just...I don't know. I'll be 30 soon, and if this is what I have to look forward to, I don't like it.
th as quick as possible.
I can usually coax 40+ MPG out of the Cruze; the Cruze's MPG's are its strong point....I mean it's a basic commuter car, it's not designed to be that fast, tbh.
There is a metric shit ton of cars out there for cheap and has a billion mods out there for it. One of my favorites is the EP3, the K20 is something special and the car is really great handling.
Or you can get another E90.
lol Char is age 29?! LMFAO!
O wow, yea I missed that. I thought he was legit 10 yrs younger.
i thot he was sum 12 yr old finally got hes own ipad so he just went trollin here lul
Get an E46 M3. It'll be loads more fun than a non-M E90 and the maintenance is reasonable.
Or if you can make it, an E90/92 M. It really has no big problems other than -maybe- the rod bearings but you don't need to worry about that before 80K miles so get a relatively low mileage one and sell it before that needs attention.
Def not getting an E9x M3 in his budget, and I'd be weary of an E46 within it to be honest. Plus insurance and operating costs will kill. Another E9x 328i or the 128i would probably be the best look for him from BMW, but I don't think another BMW is a good idea.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 09, 2015, 07:25:24 AM
Get an E46 M3. It'll be loads more fun than a non-M E90 and the maintenance is reasonable.
Or if you can make it, an E90/92 M. It really has no big problems other than -maybe- the rod bearings but you don't need to worry about that before 80K miles so get a relatively low mileage one and sell it before that needs attention.
Those are expensive
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 09, 2015, 07:25:24 AM
Get an E46 M3. It'll be loads more fun than a non-M E90 and the maintenance is reasonable.
Or if you can make it, an E90/92 M. It really has no big problems other than -maybe- the rod bearings but you don't need to worry about that before 80K miles so get a relatively low mileage one and sell it before that needs attention.
I don't have a budget really, but I like to stay frugal - that's not to say I could afford a low mileage E92 - they are essentially 30K+ for a clean early model. And then there is insurance, gas and consumables.
I think the most frustrating part is not being where I thought I'd be financially at this age. I'd love a M3...but I don't want to be car poor to have one.
It's going to be the 328i coupe sporty, unless the V6 stang and Brz can sway me.
https://youtu.be/8EsO83qRYEk
Quote from: Char on November 09, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
I don't have a budget really, but I like to stay frugal - that's not to say I could afford a low mileage E92 - they are essentially 30K+ for a clean early model. And then there is insurance, gas and consumables.
I think the most frustrating part is not being where I thought I'd be financially at this age. I'd love a M3...but I don't want to be car poor to have one.
It's going to be the 328i coupe sporty, unless the V6 stang and Brz can sway me.
Why not a Rustang GT?
I saw a clean, lowered E90 today and get the appeal. It's a good looking car.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 09, 2015, 01:58:42 PM
Why not a Rustang GT?
I saw a clean, lowered E90 today and get the appeal. It's a good looking car.
My friend's 15' GT got 22+mpg on the highway. No way.
Did I mention I do 100mi a day driving (hopefully that will change soon) but between the $100 increase on insurance and 50/week increase in gas I'm looking at almost a mortgage payment just to get to work.
The E90 got 30mpg and insurance was about 150/mo for very good coverage. Really hard to argue against that.
Im guessing good coverage included collision coverage..... your payment shouldn't be too high, $7-10K financed over like 3-5 years will be like $150-300/mo depending on your credit. $150 for insurance and then another $200 or so for gas, that's livable for a professional. E9x M3 will be as bad or worse than the Rustang on gas.
Personally if you are stressing about where you are financially I would fall back on anything better than basic transportation. There is still a lot of fun basic shit. Mazda3, my Civic Si, Fiesta ST, FR-S etc etc. I am really not seeing what the issue is. If you have the time just go drive them all this weekend.
I don't understand - there are plenty of E90-E92's out there for around 10K. They may be pre 328i, but the 325 and 330i are still pretty good, and it's basically the same car you had.
Yes, this was a point dude was all too eager to make when I was car shopping. I find it bizarre now that he's not so quick to pull the trigger again but I'm not going to give him grief about it. Kind of seems like a no brainer and isn't really a decision worth agonizing over.... lot of good suggestions here; go drive em and buy the one you like the most :huh:
JMHO, but I would go with a VW Routan if I was in your shoes.
Quote from: Char on November 09, 2015, 02:04:37 PM
My friend's 15' GT got 22+mpg on the highway. No way.
Did I mention I do 100mi a day driving (hopefully that will change soon) but between the $100 increase on insurance and 50/week increase in gas I'm looking at almost a mortgage payment just to get to work.
The E90 got 30mpg and insurance was about 150/mo for very good coverage. Really hard to argue against that.
Motorcycle? I'm doing almost 100 miles a day, pay $30/mo for insurance and get 40 mpg...
Fiesta ST, Mazda6, Mazdaspeed 3 etc would all be solid choices to look at I think.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 09, 2015, 03:54:44 PM
Motorcycle? I'm doing almost 100 miles a day, pay $30/mo for insurance and get 40 mpg...
Fiesta ST, Mazda6, Mazdaspeed 3 etc would all be solid choices to look at I think.
Lol. You can't be a pussy and ride a motorcycle 100 miles per day.
A new Mirage would get 40 MPGz.
Quote from: 2o6 on November 09, 2015, 02:17:06 PM
I don't understand - there are plenty of E90-E92's out there for around 10K. They may be pre 328i, but the 325 and 330i are still pretty good, and it's basically the same car you had.
Ok, maybe I didn't articulate my position well enough and that's my fault.
I drive 100mi per day
I spend 2 hours in traffic a day
I still like modifying and working on cars
I still would like to play with the idea of autocrossing
Have great credit, so it makes no sense for me to pay off early/fast, as my interest is almost nothing.
What cars WON'T work.
FWD cars that cost as much as used RWD car won't work. Why would I pay more/Same to compromise?
That takes out the SI, and Accord Sport
Then there are cars like the Mustang GT or G37 which are HORRIBLE on gas, and raise insurance 100/month - gas is another 50-70+ a week (250-350/mo) we are talking about
700-800/mo for a
CAR, just to get to work. I don't own a house (I'd like to...eventually)
The E92 I was/am looking at was the only manual I could find...within reason. I don't know what E92 coupes you're finding for 10K, but I would pick it up. A E90 (sedan) is more likely for those prices...but I want a coupe.
I don't know, I guess this whole responsibility thing sucks...I actually have other hobbies than can I guess I want to pursue....
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 09, 2015, 04:06:50 PM
Lol. You can't be a pussy and ride a motorcycle 100 miles per day.
A new Mirage would get 40 MPGz.
Why would I buy a bike?
You know what's really sad?
The gti pretty much fits your requirements to a t.
:lol:
TSX with a stick.
Quote from: Char on November 09, 2015, 06:06:15 PM
Ok, maybe I didn't articulate my position well enough and that's my fault.
I drive 100mi per day
I spend 2 hours in traffic a day
I still like modifying and working on cars
I still would like to play with the idea of autocrossing
Have great credit, so it makes no sense for me to pay off early/fast, as my interest is almost nothing.
What cars WON'T work.
FWD cars that cost as much as used RWD car won't work. Why would I pay more/Same to compromise?
That takes out the SI, and Accord Sport
Then there are cars like the Mustang GT or G37 which are HORRIBLE on gas, and raise insurance 100/month - gas is another 50-70+ a week (250-350/mo) we are talking about 700-800/mo for a CAR, just to get to work. I don't own a house (I'd like to...eventually)
The E92 I was/am looking at was the only manual I could find...within reason. I don't know what E92 coupes you're finding for 10K, but I would pick it up. A E90 (sedan) is more likely for those prices...but I want a coupe.
I don't know, I guess this whole responsibility thing sucks...I actually have other hobbies than can I guess I want to pursue....
Looks like you not gon find a car, then
(http://pictures.dealer.com/t/tomwoodautogroup/0842/3ba91e0f9c863775f0b5e3516397b384x.jpg)
Miata. Seriously. As a "tide me over for cheap until I decide what else to get" car, minimum.
Even after acquiring another car you might like it enough to keep it.
I've noticed that F430 prices are starting to look pretty attractive.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 09, 2015, 06:25:09 PM
You know what's really sad?
The gti pretty much fits your requirements to a t.
:lol:
:lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 09, 2015, 06:25:09 PM
You know what's really sad?
The gti pretty much fits your requirements to a t.
:lol:
Dealers will probably make it worth your while too. They will definitely wet his whistle
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 09, 2015, 06:25:09 PM
You know what's really sad?
The gti pretty much fits your requirements to a t.
:lol:
Not at all.
Coupe? Nope.
FWD? Yes.
VW? Yes
Unreliable? Probably
The TSX, even if it's a Sedan...sounds nice.
Quote from: Char on November 10, 2015, 11:45:30 AM
Not at all.
Coupe? Nope.
FWD? Yes.
VW? Yes
Unreliable? Probably
The TSX, even if it's a Sedan...sounds nice.
TSX isn't a coupe, and is FWD. VW reliability has improved a lot over the last decade too. But w/e you want to do things the hard way.
Given your requirements yeah the E92 looks like the best choice. The BRZ may handle well but is a penalty box for such a long commute IMO. Maybe the Mustang V6 or the Genesis would work.
FWD sucks so all others meh.
Unless that hour long commute is up and down a mountain 2 lane road , drive wheels will be irrelevant 99% of the time. No shame in basic transportation
I wouldn't DD a V6/I6 if I'm going to spend hours in traffic each way. But that's just me.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2015, 12:18:36 PM
Unless that hour long commute is up and down a mountain 2 lane road , drive wheels will be irrelevant 99% of the time. No shame in basic transportation
That's true, but having the right drive wheels the other 1% of the time can make it completely worth it.
I don't think I can ever have an FWD car as an only vehicle. I've been spoiled. Thankfully, I'm not picky about anything else other than a manual trans and light weight so I have plenty of options.
Quote from: Laconian on November 10, 2015, 12:24:44 PM
I wouldn't DD a V6/I6 if I'm going to spend hours in traffic each way. But that's just me.
If his commute is all highway it can be OK. When I was a good boy I got ~29-30 MPG on the highway in my 3.0 Maxima.
Are the hours spent in motion or in stop-and-go? My VQ monster gets 15mpg in heavy traffic.
I'm not sure why he just doesn't buy a 330i and call it a day
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 10, 2015, 12:14:06 PM
Given your requirements yeah the E92 looks like the best choice. The BRZ may handle well but is a penalty box for such a long commute IMO. Maybe the Mustang V6 or the Genesis would work.
FWD sucks so all others meh.
The Genesis is more of a penalty box than the Toyota twins.
It's not that big of a deal, drive wheels included. Get out and drive some damn cars instead of online quarterbacking
Quote from: 2o6 on November 10, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
I'm not sure why he just doesn't buy a 330i and call it a day
That would be too easy. He wants a RWD coupe. Though a TSX would be nice :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on November 10, 2015, 12:24:44 PM
I wouldn't DD a V6/I6 if I'm going to spend hours in traffic each way. But that's just me.
Why, so I can drive a slow penalty box to do this?
Quote from: 2o6 on November 10, 2015, 12:56:48 PM
I'm not sure why he just doesn't buy a 330i and call it a day
I don't want an e46 unless it's an M3. But the 330i E90 was only 1 model year in Sedan form.
If i had a garage, I could have 2 cars. A Corolla and a e30, or a Miata. The BRZ/FRS seems solid, and feedback on the Mustang though? Brand new they are cheap!
I'm all but sold on the E92 (it's the only MSport I could find) but I don't want to be ignorant and regret this choice! It's just a car!!
Quote from: 2o6 on November 10, 2015, 12:59:16 PM
The Genesis is more of a penalty box than the Toyota twins.
It's not that big of a deal, drive wheels included. Get out and drive some damn cars instead of online quarterbacking
I'd be surprised if the Gen Coupe was more of a penalty box than the Frizbee twins. I've admittedly only sat in the Frizbee (took a couple of test drives in the Gen Coupe, one was like 45 minutes), but I found the Gen Coupe's cabin to equal the Frizbee's in terms of quality, Genesis came with more amenities, and the seats were more comfortable. My biggest complaint with the Gen coupe, and this may have been fixed by now, is that the clutch/throttle were extremely difficult to work with when taking off from a stop. Throttle was way too touchy at initial tip-in and the clutch was vague and had a very abrupt friction point. And the shifter felt like it came from a piece of agricultural equipment.
V6 Mustang with a set of decent shocks and springs would be a really nice car. That 3.7 is a fantastic engine. Good mid-range, likes to rev, sounds good, and will get 30+ on the highway. Biggest downside is that Ford only sells it in base trim now (no leather, no premium stereo, etc) and offers very few options for it. You can at least still get the optional shorter rear end gears.
Just get a CPO E36 M3 TDI C63 AMG GTR VW.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 10, 2015, 05:36:08 PM
Just get a CPO E36 M3 TDI C63 AMG GTR VW.
Solid idea, but why not the Type R GTI version?
Quote from: Char on November 10, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Solid idea, but why not the Type R GTI version?
Only if it's the Nautica Edition.
Here's an example of a nicely done V6 Mustang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rn7AfTfAOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rn7AfTfAOg)
Quote from: Char on November 10, 2015, 05:24:03 PM
If i had a garage, I could have 2 cars. A Corolla and a e30, or a Miata. The BRZ/FRS seems solid, and feedback on the Mustang though? Brand new they are cheap!
I'm all but sold on the E92 (it's the only MSport I could find) but I don't want to be ignorant and regret this choice! It's just a car!!
If you are OK to spend 10+ hours a week in a Corolla, why not split the difference and get a stripper Mazda3?
I've always been a fan of the low key, cheap, beater daily driver while putting your money into something a bit nicer for a pleasure vehicle.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 11, 2015, 07:38:40 AM
I've always been a fan of the low key, cheap, beater daily driver while putting your money into something a bit nicer for a pleasure vehicle.
+1
Put miles on the DD but, have the option to drive the "fun" car. It was glorious when I used to grab my keys to go to work and choose between Miata or Subaru.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 11, 2015, 07:38:40 AM
I've always been a fan of the low key, cheap, beater daily driver while putting your money into something a bit nicer for a pleasure vehicle.
Yea this is a good approach. Just have to make sure you can get enough out of the fun ride to justify keeping it, especially if $$$ is tight.
Yeah, I think you want the bulk of your money in your DD though, not your fun vehicle.
I don't understand having a beater as your DD that you drive 80% of the time, and all your money in a vehicle you barely drive. That was my main reason for dumping the BRZ. Too much cash tied up in the fun car that wasn't driven much. There are a lot of interesting, fun, relatively cheap toys out there.
Quote from: MrH on November 11, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
Yeah, I think you want the bulk of your money in your DD though, not your fun vehicle.
I don't understand having a beater as your DD that you drive 80% of the time, and all your money in a vehicle you barely drive. That was my main reason for dumping the BRZ. Too much cash tied up in the fun car that wasn't driven much. There are a lot of interesting, fun, relatively cheap toys out there.
The DD doesn't really need to be a beater to be cheap. It just depends on the individual.
Quote from: MrH on November 11, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
Yeah, I think you want the bulk of your money in your DD though, not your fun vehicle.
I don't understand having a beater as your DD that you drive 80% of the time, and all your money in a vehicle you barely drive. That was my main reason for dumping the BRZ. Too much cash tied up in the fun car that wasn't driven much. There are a lot of interesting, fun, relatively cheap toys out there.
If I'm not going to enjoy driving the commute, might as well be in something boring. Plus, as Charlie said, it doesn't have to be a shitty car. You can get a nice first or second gen LS for cheap, and it'll be reliable and luxurious and a nice place to be in on a daily commute. Gas costs would suck but hey, the car is cheap.
Quote from: MrH on November 11, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
Yeah, I think you want the bulk of your money in your DD though, not your fun vehicle.
I don't understand having a beater as your DD that you drive 80% of the time, and all your money in a vehicle you barely drive. That was my main reason for dumping the BRZ. Too much cash tied up in the fun car that wasn't driven much. There are a lot of interesting, fun, relatively cheap toys out there.
Says you.....:lol:.
My daily driving is boring, sure I"d love to be in a C63 or something. But for the most part it's a non event(driving wise).
My front brake kit on my 300ZX costs more than my DD pickup, and to tell you the truth I'm more than fine with it. More money for fun stuff.
I think part of it depends on your commute too. FBC I can't imagine you having a long commute. Back when I was stuck in my car for 2-3 hours a day I could have gone for an S Class.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 11, 2015, 01:10:37 PM
I think part of it depends on your commute too. FBC I can't imagine you having a long commute. Back when I was stuck in my car for 2-3 hours a day I could have gone for an S Class.
I'm about 20-25 miles from work, one way. It's a pretty mild commute that I take mostly side(county) roads on rather than the freeway.
Though still, even if I had a 50-60 mile commute that included heavy metro driving I'd still rather just pick up some old comfortable cheap car(like a grand prix or something) for around 2-3K and pile the miles on that. While saving my cash for something much more fun.
But I do tend to be on the extreme end of this type of thing. I was just thinking the other day about what I'd really love to buy next. With (hopefully) some improvements in the business and some increases in sales I could possibly see myself being able to buy something well into my "dream car" price range. I could see a lightly used GT3 or 430 in my future, if some things were to line up. The point of mentioning that, and the funny part about it, was that I chuckled at the fact that I'd still be driving some 2K dollar 20 year old beater of a truck around on a day to day basis.
For most people, they just couldn't fathom that type of automotive extreme.
Yeah, I don't understand your car selection. I'd just make do with one less toy and get something more bearable for the daily grind.
You literally have 3 toys, and a $2k beater truck. What if you want to take a road trip?
Quote from: MrH on November 11, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
Yeah, I don't understand your car selection. I'd just make do with one less toy and get something more bearable for the daily grind.
You literally have 3 toys, and a $2k beater truck. What if you want to take a road trip?
I could just rent a car. But I do see your point, hence why I got such a chuckle out of my previous post. I'm sure given my appearance(lebowskish) and my rusted, dented, loud(exhaust manifolds leak) POS truck; nobody would believe how nice my other cars are. It's amusing, but doesn't concern me really. I actually like my truck, it's been dead reliable, I've changed the oil like 5 times in the 70-80K miles I've owned it. :lol:
Quote from: MrH on November 11, 2015, 03:26:33 PM
You literally have 3 toys, and a $2k beater truck. What if you want to take a road trip?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 11, 2015, 03:50:13 PM
I could just rent a car.
:lol:
Picked it up and couldn't be happier!
Dont vaguebook like a bitch, what did you get bro.
A fake M3.
Haima M3
VagueSpin
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 15, 2015, 11:15:21 AM
Dont vaguebook like a bitch, what did you get bro.
Totally agreed, I fucking hate that shit
Touraeg V8 with paper service floormats
Jetta Celebration
Quote from: 2o6 on November 15, 2015, 01:31:15 PM
Jetta Celebration
Jetta with a guitar and a bicycle?
I was trying to upload a photo (the orientation was wrong each time) so hold your tits.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/samessue/20151115_170428_zpshbn2py2i.jpg) (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/samessue/media/20151115_170428_zpshbn2py2i.jpg.html)
Get your damn pictures up. My tits are bouncing around so much that I have two black eyes.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 15, 2015, 03:19:44 PM
Get your damn pictures up. My tits are bouncing around so much that I have two black eyes.
Look up.
Alright that looks a lot better than the pic you posted before. Congrats, that thing looks fantastic.
I am glad you made the decision that made you happy. Low key, E9xs are good cars, and are really cheap. I personally just couldn't risk going with something I didn't know when commuting 300-400 miles a week to a new job.
And yea it looks pretty good.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 15, 2015, 04:30:14 PM
I am glad you made the decision that made you happy. Low key, E9xs are good cars, and are really cheap. I personally just couldn't risk going with something I didn't know when commuting 300-400 miles a week to a new job.
And yea it looks pretty good.
Single owner car with full records. I know the problem areas, so I know what I'm looking for...except now the car has a fault I can't clear (oil change is due 90miles ago) because someone broke into my rental a few weeks ago and stole my stuff, including my OBD interface cable. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Char on November 15, 2015, 04:45:52 PM
Single owner car with full records. I know the problem areas, so I know what I'm looking for...except now the car has a fault I can't clear (oil change is due 90miles ago) because someone broke into my rental a few weeks ago and stole my stuff, including my OBD interface cable. :rolleyes:
Bluetooth FTW but congrats! Sweet looking ride!
Looks good
Got a baseline dyno yet?
I don't know where you live, but that's exactly the kind of setup I expect to see in really warm places. White. Tinted windows. Clean. :lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 15, 2015, 05:37:36 PM
Got a baseline dyno yet?
I know your kidding, but Saturday.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 15, 2015, 05:38:38 PM
I don't know where you live, but that's exactly the kind of setup I expect to see in really warm places. White. Tinted windows. Clean. :lol:
Fla and thank you.
ZCP wheels look so good. Congrats
Congrats. Very nice.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 15, 2015, 10:35:47 PM
ZCP wheels look so good. Congrats
+1
But seriously...portrait instead of landcape? WTF...?
:lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 18, 2015, 02:30:02 PM
+1
But seriously...portrait instead of landcape? WTF...?
:lol:
Audi buyers are tech savvy, BMW buyers are busy coordinating their beenies and lanyards.
She needs a name -
Names I already used:
Trisha
Sara
Tara
Emma
I'm thinking Anna or Kara.
Planning a baseline run on Saturday and do some minor things like give her a good cleaning (pay for a detailing probably).
Long term plans will be to sell the wheels (both sets) as the likelihood of bending a wheel is high, and grabbing a set of APEX wheels (I might just keep a set for street wheels, who knows)
Planning a nice intake (I guess I can't do a Dinan, there is a chassis brace in the way) so I'll probably do AFE's intake.
AFE's secondary delete pipes
Super Sprint's Y to a nice muffler/ Res combo. Car currently has a BMW Performance exhaust which sounds fantastic (it burbles!) but it isn't every loud (which is fine) With headers, I understand it's enough to wake the dead.
And I'll probably do M3 Subframe bushings and control arms.
:rolleyes:
Ok.
My car's name is Summit. It doesn't need changing.
Quote from: Char on November 15, 2015, 04:45:52 PM
Single owner car with full records. I know the problem areas, so I know what I'm looking for...except now the car has a fault I can't clear (oil change is due 90miles ago) because someone broke into my rental a few weeks ago and stole my stuff, including my OBD interface cable. :rolleyes:
You can clear that code without a scanner. I used to do it in my E90. Look it up in YouTube.
No, do not name your car. It is just a car bro.
I liken dudes naming cars to dudes having sex dolls. Just not quite rite :lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 08:06:08 PM
:rolleyes:
Kara.
It's a personal thing, not for 'bro' conversation.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 19, 2015, 06:22:45 AM
No, do not name your car. It is just a car bro.
I liken dudes naming cars to dudes having sex dolls. Just not quite rite :lol:
We call ours "silver", "red", and "Sandy".
because we needed to be able to answer
"Which car do you want to take?"
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 18, 2015, 09:42:53 PM
You can clear that code without a scanner. I used to do it in my E90. Look it up in YouTube.
NOAH WEIGH. :mrcool:
Kara? Trisha?
Are you naming them after strippers that broke your heart? :confused:
Quote from: MrH on November 19, 2015, 09:46:44 AM
Kara? Trisha?
Are you naming them after strippers that broke your heart? :confused:
I thought strippers have trashy names like ' Candy' and 'Brittney-Lynn'
Quote from: Char on November 19, 2015, 08:55:00 AM
Kara.
It's a personal thing, not for 'bro' conversation.
:rolleyes:
My car's name is ES300 because that's what Lexus wanted to call it.
Past car names in my family:
"Mazda"
"BMW"
"Camaro"
"Bug"
"El Camino"
"Mustang"
"Focus"
"Acura"
"Jeep"
"Saturn"
"Honda"
Quote from: Char on November 19, 2015, 08:55:00 AM
Kara.
It's a personal thing, not for 'bro' conversation.
Is that the name of the girl you wanted who dated the VW dude :lol:
If you wanna name your car, I say don't force/rush it. Wait a while until you have an "aha!" moment with it
Quote from: MrH on November 19, 2015, 09:46:44 AM
Kara? Trisha?
Are you naming them after strippers that broke your heart? :confused:
Hahahah that's exactly what I thought
Female strippers? I don't think so ;).
Anyway, how is it anyone under the age of ~50 can still claim to have problems posting images in this day and age?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 19, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
Female strippers? I don't think so ;).
Anyway, how is it anyone under the age of ~50 can still claim to have problems posting images in this day and age?
You'd he surprised at how bad people are at technology, regardless of age.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 19, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
Female strippers? I don't think so ;).
Anyway, how is it anyone under the age of ~50 can still claim to have problems posting images in this day and age?
Took Benz Boy like a year to realize the silence switch on his iPhone was why it wouldn't ring.
Quote from: Char on November 19, 2015, 08:55:00 AM
Kara.
It's a personal thing, not for 'bro' conversation.
Oh, this is good trolling material.
Congrats, btw. Very nice car. Did you get a 28 again?
I'm waiting for all you to look like huge douchebags when the whole Kara thing ends up being about a family member.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 19, 2015, 11:58:53 PM
I'm waiting for all you to look like huge douchebags when the whole Kara thing ends up being about a family member.
Why would ANYONE want to ride their family member??? I've never heard of naming a car after family before.....
Quote from: 68_427 on November 19, 2015, 11:58:53 PM
I'm waiting for all you to look like huge douchebags when the whole Kara thing ends up being about a family member.
Close! My first car was a gift from a family friend, and I named it after her, after that it's just been a habit since. The E90 was named Emma because it flowed well.
Touching
Dilemma here:
Sold my 18s (looking to sell my 19s as well)
I have a few options that recently opened up:
APEX ARC8 wheels - $1200 (plus tires and hardware)
http://www.apexraceparts.com/apex-products/e90-e92/17x9-ET30-APEX-ARC-8-Wheel.html#.VlhuAZ8o7qA (http://www.apexraceparts.com/apex-products/e90-e92/17x9-ET30-APEX-ARC-8-Wheel.html#.VlhuAZ8o7qA)
Super Sprint Section 1 $260 http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-178020-e82-128i-e9x-325i328i330i-supersprint-section-1-cat-delete-straight-pipes.aspx (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-178020-e82-128i-e9x-325i328i330i-supersprint-section-1-cat-delete-straight-pipes.aspx)
And maybe this section 2: http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-178042-e82-128i-supersprint-section-2-straight-pipe-resonator-delete.aspx (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-178042-e82-128i-supersprint-section-2-straight-pipe-resonator-delete.aspx)
Doing the SS exhaust means I would be selling my PE as well, which sounds fantastic normally, but not as much when the rest of the exhaust is modified. Also, the PE adds Zero power, and probably weighs as much as stock, so there is minor gains to be had there.
The wheels are 17×9, weigh almost half as much as the 19s (16.5 vs 30lbs) and tires are SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper.
Opinions?
One more thing, I can use the PE Y pipe, which is about the same as the SS piece, but makes selling the PE more difficult.
I like the ARC8 wheels. I want a set of BBS RGR replicas and those come close. But anyway I think going smaller is better.
I feel like SS is hella overpriced and overrated. When it comes to exhausts, I have always had great luck with an oversized single pipe to a turbo style muffler. With my N/A Maxima I went with a 3" system from the cat back. Sounded phenomenal. On my F22A Accord I did 2.5". Sounded pretty good too. With the Civic I want to go turbo eventually so I will probably do 3" again. There is no benefit to backpressure beyond the Y-pipe so you might as well go as big as what makes sense. But I have always found SS pricing to be a bit insulting and out of control.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 27, 2015, 01:04:23 PM
I like the ARC8 wheels. I want a set of BBS RGR replicas and those come close. But anyway I think going smaller is better.
I feel like SS is hella overpriced and overrated. When it comes to exhausts, I have always had great luck with an oversized single pipe to a turbo style muffler. With my N/A Maxima I went with a 3" system from the cat back. Sounded phenomenal. On my F22A Accord I did 2.5". Sounded pretty good too. With the Civic I want to go turbo eventually so I will probably do 3" again. There is no benefit to backpressure beyond the Y-pipe so you might as well go as big as what makes sense. But I have always found SS pricing to be a bit insulting and out of control.
nOT EVEN TRUE. yOU HAVE TO HAVE bACKPRESSURE OR THE ENGINE WONT RUN RIGT. iT KEEPS THE EXHUAST FROM COMING OUT ALL THE WAY. yOU HAVE TO PUT 1/SQRT(PI)INCHES OF PIPE RADIUS ON PER RPM/LITER DISPLACEMENT TO MAINTAIN GREATER THAN ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE TO THE EXHAUST TIP. oTHERWISE ATMOSPHEREIC PRESSURE WILL ENTER THE EXHAUST. tHE ENGINE CANNOT RUN IF THE EXHAUST IS GOING BACKWARDS AND OUT THE INTAKE BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH bACKPRESSURE. yOU NEED TO ADD bACKPRESSURE WHY THAT IS BECAUSE SOME CARS HAVE AIR PUMPS ON THE EHXUAST SO THEY MAKE ENOUGH toRQUE.
THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT FAKE DYNOGRAPHS
:lol:
Does Rota make wheels with the BMW bolt pattern?
I think a 18x12 with stretched 195's would look pretty sharp on that.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 27, 2015, 01:04:23 PM
I like the ARC8 wheels. I want a set of BBS RGR replicas and those come close. But anyway I think going smaller is better.
I feel like SS is hella overpriced and overrated. When it comes to exhausts, I have always had great luck with an oversized single pipe to a turbo style muffler. With my N/A Maxima I went with a 3" system from the cat back. Sounded phenomenal. On my F22A Accord I did 2.5". Sounded pretty good too. With the Civic I want to go turbo eventually so I will probably do 3" again. There is no benefit to backpressure beyond the Y-pipe so you might as well go as big as what makes sense. But I have always found SS pricing to be a bit insulting and out of control.
Merge collector position is a big deal, I can post Tony from Motordyne debunking the whole 'back pressure' argument completely.
But check this out: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=1066058374&postcount=961 (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=1066058374&postcount=961)
Quote
On the suggestion of some of the forum members, I reworked my 3.5" exhaust.
Original Config:
eBay Headers
4" of 2.25 Dual Pipes
Merge to 3.5"
3.5" Resonator
3.5" Race Muffler
New Config:
eBay Headers
40" of 2.5" Dual Pipe
Dual 2.5" Resonators
Merge to 3.5"
3.5" Resonator
Basically, I moved the merge back to just before the rear subframe on my MZ3 Coupe. This forced me to change to dual resonators before the merge.
The other modification I made was I switched from the stock water pump setup to an electric pump.
The results, we awesome:
(http://www.clownshoemotorsports.com/forum_img/Exhaust_Change.jpg)
I'll give SS credit for solid R&D, but I agree they are absolutely overpriced. THE sec 1 pipe is pretty much spot on, and section 2 is probably the beat location for the merge, but the price is pretty high.
Best exhaust tech info ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTARjxiqlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTARjxiqlo)
In short, you're not gonna beat a factory stock exhaust system on a factory motor. This mistake is believing "more" flow or less "restriction" is better. It's all about system design not freewheeling generic terms. Do custom exhaust for looks or sound, but if you're doing it for performance on a factory motor you're wasting time and money, and lots of times you'll hurt performance, esp. part throttle and lower RPM, and throttle response.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 09:39:50 AM
Best exhaust tech info ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTARjxiqlo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTARjxiqlo)
In short, you're not gonna beat a factory stock exhaust system on a factory motor. This mistake is believing "more" flow or less "restriction" is better. It's all about system design not freewheeling generic terms. Do custom exhaust for looks or sound, but if you're doing it for performance on a factory motor you're wasting time and money, and lots of times you'll hurt performance, esp. part throttle and lower RPM, and throttle response.
Go to 6:50 in the video, and it will contradict everything you just said.
FAIL.
SHAKA, WHEN THE WALLS FELL.
SUMMIT.
-1 INTERNET.
Hang in there - you have to watch the video all the way through (esp. the Hellcat cars).
New performance cars with factory headers do a pretty good job and don't necessarily need replacement unless you are making other mods, but anything stock manifolds should be thrown in the trash.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 29, 2015, 10:55:51 AM
New performance cars with factory headers do a pretty good job and don't necessarily need replacement unless you are making other mods, but anything stock manifolds should be thrown in the trash.
Look at this LS7 engine dyno test of headers vs. manifold on a stock LS7 (http://www.ultimateheaders.com/dyno.shtml). The headers gain up top but lose down below, with the net effect being the car with manifolds will perform/drive better on the track and around town (better throttle response, more power down below) and be just as quick in acceleration, esp. considering the Z06 has such massively tall gears (60 mph in 1st gear). It should also be noted that those long tube headers won't fit a C6 Z06.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 10:23:56 AM
Hang in there - you have to watch the video all the way through (esp. the Hellcat cars).
A stock BMW 328i is hardly a high performance vehicle. We have been over this so many times I'm not even going to get into why you are wrong on this one. But the idea that an exhaust built to cost, noise and environmental restraints leaves nothing on the table WRT performance is ridiculous.
You're free of course to try to prove me wrong, and I'll be extremely forgiving in allowing you to sidestep the necessity of explaining how a podunk exhaust company cracked the code and the hundreds or thousands of BMW (or Porsche or Audi or whoever) power train engineers couldn't. Stock car + stock motor = you're not gonna do better than the stock exhaust (or stock tune or stock intake or w/e).
The code OEMs have to crack != the code some podunk exhaust company has to crack. So it's no use getting into specifics when your premise is wrong.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 12:41:14 PM
You're free of course to try to prove me wrong, and I'll be extremely forgiving in allowing you to sidestep the necessity of explaining how a podunk exhaust company cracked the code and the hundreds or thousands of BMW (or Porsche or Audi or whoever) power train engineers couldn't. Stock car + stock motor = you're not gonna do better than the stock exhaust (or stock tune or stock intake or w/e).
What do you mean by "better?" Is that more of an efficiency/engineering better? Because the other side of this argument just wants power.
Still waiting on that proof, under any premise.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 01:16:47 PM
Still waiting on that proof, under any premise.
Most people who mod for performance mod both exhaust and other aspects of the power train, so that your "stock motor" premise stops applying, no?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 01:16:47 PM
Still waiting on that proof, under any premise.
I can't disprove a flawed theory based on a false premise. I have already discussed at length how OEM exhausts are compromised- for example a 328i is not getting mandrel bent harmonically tuned headers. They get these:
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/5076725908_7bd4c2aa29_b.jpg)
Max power on those is tertiary to cost and emissions (that big soup can is the first stage cat). From the headers the exhaust is compromised on cost and noise reduction. Like I've asked in the past, how do things like catalytic converters, resonators and baffled mufflers help with power production? Why don't race cars or Top Fuel dragsters have the myriad of components you see on OEM street car exhausts? Plenty of dyno charts and simple 2nd year fluid dynamics explain how those kinds of components don't help. But you continue to insist otherwise in spite of this mountain of evidence, owing to your deifying of OEMs. These same OEMs that have had increasing and record numbers of recalls and often still struggle with designing reliable basic components.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 01:16:47 PM
Still waiting on that proof, under any premise.
I went to college. One of my class projects was designing, building, and testing an exhaust system. You, on the other hand, have YouTube videos.
Oh, by the way, I got a "A" on the project :ohyeah:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 29, 2015, 01:53:19 PM
Most people who mod for performance mod both exhaust and other aspects of the power train, so that your "stock motor" premise stops applying, no?
I would argue that most do NOT, just like ITT, mod other aspects of the power train - these days it is expensive and complicated to swap heads, cams and pistons, unlike the days of old. But yes, if you're mucking with internals and the like all bets are off. If you're not though, intake, tune, exhaust, is money wasted if one is chasing performance.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 04:40:24 PM
If you're not though, intake, tune, exhaust, is money wasted if one is chasing performance.
Prove it.
Lols. Cougs be insistent.
It's the next best thing to being correct.`
He keeps backing himself into corners for the sole purpose of trying to convice other people that he isn't.
If you guys only knew how much this feeds my ego, Jesus, you'd haven nothing to do with being this wrong ;).
My favorite though is definitely CAIs - the pseudo science there is spectacular. Puts exhaust to shame.
Are you a even a real person?
I bought a CAI because it saves weight off the front end of the car.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 29, 2015, 09:50:11 PM
I bought a CAI because it saves weight off the front end of the car.
That is a myth. The OEM intake is the only one that saves weight.
I got my CAI purely for noise. There have been datalogs taken that show that they do reduce intake temperatures though.
I'm still waiting for that explanation of how catalytic converters and baffled mufflers make power. Apparently OEMs are so smart they have figured out how to beat fluid dynamics.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 07:53:06 PM
If you guys only knew how much this feeds my ego, Jesus, you'd haven nothing to do with being this wrong ;).
If all it takes is pointing out obvious logic to feed your ego, no wonder you're so well-thought of (in your own circle).
deez headers for the RC-F doe
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8125/8658441115_08f1721b8b_b.jpg)
RC-F needs 2 turbos.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 01, 2015, 06:18:18 AM
RC-F needs 2 turbos.
If the OEM didn't install turbos, then adding turbos will only waste money amd decrease performance.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 01, 2015, 06:32:16 AM
If the OEM didn't install turbos, then adding turbos will only waste money amd decrease performance.
You got it, fine sir!
Quote from: 68_427 on November 30, 2015, 09:53:45 PM
deez headers for the RC-F doe
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8125/8658441115_08f1721b8b_b.jpg)
Look interesting but that many welds (= seams) and direction changes tells you that it's not the Right Thing to do.
I really doubt Toyota would have gone to the considerable expense of those headers if there wasn't some tangible benefit to offset the complexity and higher fabrication cost.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 01, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
Look interesting but that many welds (= seams) and direction changes tells you that it's not the Right Thing to do.
sometimes it is
(http://news.boldride.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/taurus-sho-3.jpg)
But that first pic above looks complicated for no good reason
Quote from: MX793 on December 01, 2015, 10:52:44 AM
I really doubt Toyota would have gone to the considerable expense of those headers if there wasn't some tangible benefit to offset the complexity and higher fabrication cost.
You're correct - the welds, the seams, the material - Toyota would never put that on a production car. That is an aftermarket header by an outfit called Novel out of Japan:
(http://cdn.snsimg.carview.co.jp/minkara/userstorage/000/022/741/283/02fd264b1c.jpg?ct=93ea4efb6fc8)
Quote from: GoCougs on December 01, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
Look interesting but that many welds (= seams) and direction changes tells you that it's not the Right Thing to do.
Here is a stock IS-F header, which for all intents and purposes has the same engine:
(http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-2008-2014/332593d1402695361-deleting-cats-from-stock-headers-question-right-side-exhaust-manifold.jpg)
Explain to us how this stock header, with its unequal length runners, stamped + low diameter collector and huge pre-cat is better for performance than the Novel harmonically tuned catless long tubes.
cuz oemzzzzzz
That stock header looks fucking terrible. :mask:
Quote from: thecarnut on December 02, 2015, 08:00:57 AM
That stock header looks fucking terrible. :mask:
That is only because you don't understand OEM. Don't worry, Cougs will enlighten us soon. Didn't you just replace the header in your car? LOL. Sucker.
curiously, Cougs claims non-OEM tires can be better than OEM.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 02, 2015, 06:01:34 AM
Here is a stock IS-F header, which for all intents and purposes has the same engine:
(http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/is-f-2008-2014/332593d1402695361-deleting-cats-from-stock-headers-question-right-side-exhaust-manifold.jpg)
Explain to us how this stock header, with its unequal length runners, stamped + low diameter collector and huge pre-cat is better for performance than the Novel harmonically tuned catless long tubes.
You confuse engineering and design, and if you knew what the former was about, you wouldn't have to ask. Rather, you should be asking, "Why didn't Lexus's team of hundreds of power train engines design a header like that, and no, I understand it's not about emissions or sound?"
Design to cost and design for manufacturing. A significant cost savings will trump a slight loss in performance or efficiency.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 02, 2015, 10:23:55 AM
That is only because you don't understand OEM. Don't worry, Cougs will enlighten us soon. Didn't you just replace the header in your car? LOL. Sucker.
Damn, I should have kept my stock header. :hammerhead:
Quote from: MX793 on December 02, 2015, 02:29:08 PM
Design to cost and design for manufacturing. A significant cost savings will trump a slight loss in performance or efficiency.
That makes some sense...but...why would they attached a Pepsi can to it?
Quote from: GoCougs on December 02, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
You confuse engineering and design, and if you knew what the former was about, you wouldn't have to ask. Rather, you should be asking, "Why didn't Lexus's team of hundreds of power train engines design a header like that, and no, I understand it's not about emissions or sound?"
Why should I be asking that? What purpose does a catalytic converter serve that doesn't have to do with emissions? And nobody said anything about sound.
You claimed the Novel header has too many "seams and direction changes" and is made from the wrong material. Too many seams/bends/wrong material for what exactly? What is the OEM manifold better at?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 02, 2015, 02:36:43 PM
That makes some sense...but...why would they attached a Pepsi can to it?
Acoustics.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on December 02, 2015, 02:36:43 PM
That makes some sense...but...why would they attached a Pepsi can to it?
In case the engine gets thirsty :rolleyes:
Quote from: MX793 on December 02, 2015, 02:29:08 PM
Design to cost and design for manufacturing. A significant cost savings will trump a slight loss in performance or efficiency.
No, not really, esp. for a fairly exclusive performance car. If such a header design would help with performance and efficiency you can surely bet Toyota of all manufacturers would figure out how to make it a cost effective part.
So, where do we go from here? We can look to high HP front engine cars for which manufacturing costs (at least for performance) are of little or any concern, and we're in luck, as there are a number of examples examples. Note how utterly boring and simple these designs are.
Here's the 662 hp GT500 with a log style manifold:
(http://image.hotrod.com/f/35008556+w660+h495+q80+re0+cr1+ar0+st0/ccrp-1204-650hp-modular-ford-horsepower-000.jpg)
Here's the 707 hp Hellcat motor with a simple shorty-style header:
(http://www.dodge.com/assets/images/vehicles/2016/challenger/performance/engines/2015-challenger-performance-engines-hellcat.jpg)
Here's the 650 hp LT4 Z06 motor with a simple manifold:
(http://www.autofieldguide.com/cdn/cms/Corvette%202(2).jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on December 02, 2015, 02:38:35 PM
Why should I be asking that? What purpose does a catalytic converter serve that doesn't have to do with emissions? And nobody said anything about sound.
You claimed the Novel header has too many "seams and direction changes" and is made from the wrong material. Too many seams/bends/wrong material for what exactly? What is the OEM manifold better at?
You need to be asking that because you do not have the right answer - the truth starts with an appropriate premise.
The OEM manifold is better at have been engineered rather than designed (see above post).
God damn you're an idiot.
This argument isn't really going anywhere. I'm seeing this:
Cougs: From an engineering/efficiency/meeting EPA/etc. standpoint, OEM is the best, aftermarket is garbage.
Everyone else: OEM is garbage for power.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 02, 2015, 03:56:17 PM
No, not really, esp. for a fairly exclusive performance car. If such a header design would help with performance and efficiency you can surely bet Toyota of all manufacturers would figure out how to make it a cost effective part.
So, where do we go from here? We can look to high HP front engine cars for which manufacturing costs (at least for performance) are of little or any concern, and we're in luck, as there are a number of examples examples. Note how utterly boring and simple these designs are.
Here's the 662 hp GT500 with a log style manifold:
(http://image.hotrod.com/f/35008556+w660+h495+q80+re0+cr1+ar0+st0/ccrp-1204-650hp-modular-ford-horsepower-000.jpg)
Here's the 707 hp Hellcat motor with a simple shorty-style header:
(http://www.dodge.com/assets/images/vehicles/2016/challenger/performance/engines/2015-challenger-performance-engines-hellcat.jpg)
Here's the 650 hp LT4 Z06 motor with a simple manifold:
(http://www.autofieldguide.com/cdn/cms/Corvette%202(2).jpg)
All of those engines are supercharged. The IS-F motor is not. Comparison is invalid.
Here are some exhaust manifolds for high performance
NATURALLY ASPIRATED engines.
GT3:
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/pjsgt3/GT3%20exhaust/DSC_0135.jpg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/pjsgt3/media/GT3%20exhaust/DSC_0135.jpg.html)
(http://rennlist.com/forums/attachments/parts-marketplace/958136d1438037500-996-gt3-oem-headers-and-cats-for-sale-20150727_175148.png)
M3:
(http://s301.photobucket.com/user/cvmardre/media/3Apr10SuperchargerinstallM3018.jpg)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aDMAAOSwEeFU8LXY/s-l1600.jpg)
458 Italia:
(http://www.supremepower.com/prod_images/xlarge/FS.FER.458.SHDR_img2.jpg)
Previous Civic Si:
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx82/belizetj/100_2011.jpg)
Etc. etc.
High HP
naturally aspirated cars for which cost is a varying concern (Civics to Ferraris)..... all with tubular, harmonically tuned OEM exhaust manifolds. Imagine that!
And tubular headers are consistently good for ~20-30WHP on the IS-F motor over stock. I wonder why that is :hmm:
:partyon:
Also funny how Cougs was hating on boosted engines before, but is now citing them for his theses. Thats quaint
So, you mean, automakers are more than willing to gin up some sort of fancy header when advantageous - meaning, it's not about "manufacturing costs" or compromise or whatever? Jesus, that proves my point better than I ever could...
N/A vs. S/C is irrelevant to exhaust design - surprised you'd ever try to go there.
Oh, Sporty, your level of fail here is epic but I forgive you (for like the 86th time) but at some point these hits have to start taking their toll, no? Getting steamroller'd like this is not healthy but, well, you asked for it.
TL;DR - if it didn't come from the factory with it, it's not going to help performance. If you disagree you are wrong.
Lol.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 02, 2015, 06:54:52 PM
So, you mean, automakers are more than willing to gin up some sort of fancy header when advantageous - meaning, it's not about "manufacturing costs" or compromise or whatever? Jesus, that proves my point better than I ever could...
N/A vs. S/C is irrelevant to exhaust design - surprised you'd ever try to go there.
Oh, Sporty, your level of fail here is epic but I forgive you (for like the 86th time) but at some point these hits have to start taking their toll, no? Getting steamroller'd like this is not healthy but, well, you asked for it.
TL;DR - if it didn't come from the factory with it, it's not going to help performance. If you disagree you are wrong.
Lol you are all over the place. First factories don't do elaborate headers, then they only do them if it will help, and it only helps if it's OEM. A tubular header is a tubular header. The exhaust doesn't care if it is OEM or aftermarket. And this STILL doesn't answer the question of how catalytic converters "help performance". Let's see how you move the goalposts around that one.
What in the actual fuck is going on here?
Anyhow, I'm on the fence still about my exhaust, might sell, might not. Still waiting on a baseline dyno (maybe today?) before I do anything.
Don't you have AAA roadside dyno service?
It's great, call them up and they'll be there in 15 minutes and take some readings.
I was driving to work one day and came off the sidestreet pretty hot, car felt a bit stronger than usual. Got really excited because I had just cleaned some leaves out of the grill. Thought I should get some readings, so I pulled over, called them up and they had me strapped down spinning the rollers in less than 20 minutes.
Sadly there was no change from the day before when I had them meet me outside of target to run some numbers. Turns out it was pretty windy that day, so I'm guessing it might have been a strong tailwind gust that gave her a little better throttle response.
:rockon:
I let my coverage lapse, maybe I should pony up the dough because just had an exhaust leak welded ($25) and feels like Moahr Powah. Need to check.
So guys, I need some help:
What would YOU do?
This is a N52 with Headers, Tune and a N54 intake manifold:
(http://bimmerperformancecenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/128i-header-intake-tune.png)
A few things, notice the power at redline, the car will actually do 250whp at 7200RPM and max out at 7500RPM.
Here is the follow up (and the email)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2yzg1es.jpg)
QuoteSmall update for you,
Best numbers from the n54 intake and alpha n tune with a custom intake pipe and stock air box w/ filter. It will rev to 7700rpm safely and after 50+ pulls on the dyno, that little 3L is still running strong :) The power after 7500 kinda flat lines at 248hp, so I kept the limiter @ 7500. I was able to get 225tq out of the intake, however, there was a big midrange dip in the powerband. We'll have more info on Monday for you.....The car has AA header, no cats, full custom exhaust. Stock air box w/ stock filter and carbon filter. I removed the air box / intake pipe and picked up zero hp.
N54 Manifolds are cheap, and they have the advantage of being simpler (no DISA valves) but they loose a bunch of power over the 3 stage manifold in the mid range:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1323146&stc=1&d=1448333139)
(old tune vs 3 stage with bolt ons)
What would you do?
Oh, and the cut the stock manifold open and made trumpets - No tb, no MAF and they function like ITB because of valvetronic.
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1324876&stc=1&d=1448679338)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1324877&stc=1&d=1448679341)
Green is the "ITB" line, they tweaked that tune and got something like 265whp...
8000rpm redline, ITB's
Sounds like what you really need is a RB motor. Sure its a 25 year old design, but it would be an upgrade over that bmw motor.
lol - 50 RWP hp on a 200 RWHP motor from exhaust, "tune" and a stock intake manifold - that's the kind of power you get from a power adder...
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on December 14, 2015, 07:25:48 PM
8000rpm redline, ITB's
Sounds like what you really need is a RB motor. Sure its a 25 year old design, but it would be an upgrade over that bmw motor.
I love the RB, but nah. A more livable S54 is what I'm going for.
Nothing says livable like sacrificing mid range torque for HP above 7500 rpms.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 14, 2015, 07:42:18 PM
lol - 50 RWP hp on a 200 RWHP motor from exhaust, "tune" and a stock intake manifold - that's the kind of power you get from a power adder...
Power adder? Only power adder is OEM™ approved design. Plus since when do you even read chassis dynos? I thought they were all BS.
Char I would not sacrifice midrange for top end. On the street midrange is GOD. Higher
average power (especially over the RPMs you spend the bulk of your time in)>>>>>> higher peak power at the expense of everything else.
What's the cost of a used actual S54 engine that you could swap in? I know of no S54 swaps into an E90. It'd be cool but may be too complex.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on December 15, 2015, 09:36:43 AM
Nothing says livable like sacrificing mid range torque for HP above 7500 rpms.
Dat Scream off the Rev Limiter tho
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on December 15, 2015, 10:31:36 AM
What's the cost of a used actual S54 engine that you could swap in? I know of no S54 swaps into an E90. It'd be cool but may be too complex.
So much $$$$$$$. N52 is solid. They just need some aftermarket cams and valvesprings for it. With those I could see it making ~300 crank HP.
Well, first update on the car:
Finally had a chance to do a shakedown on it, and run it at the local track.
Ran a 15.4XX at best with a 93mph trap speed (93.5mph was the highest) 2.4 50ft. The car is absolutely stock save for the massive 19s and the BMW Performance exhaust. If I was a better driver and had some lighter wheels, that would be a high 14 second time. I didn't buy it for drag racing, but it was fun to try it out.
Up next is maintenance and maybe a mod or two!
Make sure it has a fucking air filter.
Took her to Autocross with the 19s, got a cool photo:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2wr1dhi.jpg)
Sweet, only a few tenths of a second slower than a stock 1989 Ford Taurus SHO.
Picked up some new mods:
Super Sprint Section 1
And APEX ARC8 17x9 wheels. Finally!
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2dbw58h.jpg)
This is the 2 runs from today versus my previous best baseline.
So... your results are all within the margin of error? Good consistency.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 30, 2016, 11:29:03 AM
So... your results are all within the margin of error? Good consistency.
MIGHT BE ONE HP MORE YO
Got a higher res version, the lines are too close together.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 01, 2016, 01:55:12 PM
Got a higher res version, the lines are too close together.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/rd7IVj5Zk9M8U/giphy.gif)
:lol: :clap:
It's just old car baseline vs new car bsaeline. Click for larger picture.
Quote from: Char on February 13, 2016, 09:56:00 AM
It's just old car baseline vs new car bsaeline. Click for larger picture.
I actually just printed it out and put it under a microscope. Can really see some impressive gains at 100x magnification.
What's the measurement tolerance on that dyno? Because with 3 values within <5%, I'm guessing you're within the noise.
Also look at both how often the lines cross and how often the lines are within 1% or less.
SHUDDUP NASSIVE POWAH YO
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 13, 2016, 08:11:51 PM
I actually just printed it out and put it under a microscope. Can really see some i
mpressive gains at 100x magnification.
Goodness you're old. You printed it off?
Quote from: MX793 on February 14, 2016, 06:47:34 AM
What's the measurement tolerance on that dyno? Because with 3 values within <5%, I'm guessing you're within the noise.
I'd hope so, they are the same engine and transmission configuration, the only difference being the 212whp run (black car) had a K&N panel filter, and the current 214whp run (white car) has the BMW Performance exhaust, which is just a cat back.
I'd say the dyno is accurate based on that.
U r def deep into the realm of "margin of error"
Quote from: Char on February 14, 2016, 02:20:16 PM
Goodness you're old. You printed it off?
I'd hope so, they are the same engine and transmission configuration, the only difference being the 212whp run (black car) had a K&N panel filter, and the current 214whp run (white car) has the BMW Performance exhaust, which is just a cat back.
I'd say the dyno is accurate based on that.
:facepalm:
Quote from: Char on February 14, 2016, 02:20:16 PM
Goodness you're old. You printed it off?
I'd hope so, they are the same engine and transmission configuration, the only difference being the 212whp run (black car) had a K&N panel filter, and the current 214whp run (white car) has the BMW Performance exhaust, which is just a cat back.
I'd say the dyno is accurate based on that.
LOL
You do realize that each engine that comes out of the factory has a different hp, right?? Supposedly the hp listed is the "minimum" your car should have??
Quote from: Char on February 14, 2016, 02:20:16 PM
Goodness you're old. You printed it off?
I'd hope so, they are the same engine and transmission configuration, the only difference being the 212whp run (black car) had a K&N panel filter, and the current 214whp run (white car) has the BMW Performance exhaust, which is just a cat back.
I'd say the dyno is accurate based on that.
Yup, I'm old. Back in my day when we modified a car it actually made a measurable increase in power.
As I've said many many many times, chassis dynos suck for accuracy. We all know this - look to see how many SAE rated engines test way differently than what they should, and how many times the same engine tests differently based on the dyno manufacturer. Across it all, I'd be shocked if accuracy is better than 5% and it's probably closer to 10%. A very good example is M/T testing the 2011 Mustang GT (http://www.motortrend.com/news/mustang-power-we-dyno-the-2011-ford-mustang-50-v8-and-37-v6-8060/) - forgetting everything else the V8 car "made" ~12 more hp in 4th vs. 3rd gear. So, for a 150 hp motor (;)), at best you're not going to catch improvements (or detriments) under +/- 5% or +/- 8 hp.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2016, 08:12:50 PM
As I've said many many many times, chassis dynos suck for accuracy. We all know this - look to see how many SAE rated engines test way differently than what they should, and how many times the same engine tests differently based on the dyno manufacturer. Across it all, I'd be shocked if accuracy is better than 5% and it's probably closer to 10%. A very good example is M/T testing the 2011 Mustang GT (http://www.motortrend.com/news/mustang-power-we-dyno-the-2011-ford-mustang-50-v8-and-37-v6-8060/) - forgetting everything else the V8 car "made" ~12 more hp in 4th vs. 3rd gear. So, for a 150 hp motor (;)), at best you're not going to catch improvements (or detriments) under +/- 5% or +/- 8 hp.
Accuracy OR precision?
Both cars had roughly the same miles and produced roughly the same power. They are within 2whp of each other (years apart)
As far as precision goes, I've tested it where even months later, the graph overlay is flawless, it can be repeated multiple times over to the same result.
Quote from: MrH on February 14, 2016, 06:28:48 PM
:facepalm:
You're a fucking moron.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 14, 2016, 07:17:48 PM
Yup, I'm old. Back in my day when we modified a car it actually made a measurable increase in power.
What increase in power? This is a
BASELINE dyno, the car is virtually stock,I haven't modified it yet. I compared it to a previous baseline dyno I did an had almost a perfect overlay.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 14, 2016, 06:38:43 PM
LOL
You do realize that each engine that comes out of the factory has a different hp, right?? Supposedly the hp listed is the "minimum" your car should have??
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Char on February 14, 2016, 09:05:02 PM
Accuracy OR precision?
Both cars had roughly the same miles and produced roughly the same power. They are within 2whp of each other (years apart)
As far as precision goes, I've tested it where even months later, the graph overlay is flawless, it can be repeated multiple times over to the same result.
Accuracy and precision are not the same thing:
(http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazine/tct/accuracy_vs_precision_556.jpg)
Again, there's your god laughing at you. The SAME car on the SAME dyno can have quite different readings, even if the dyno were to be perfectly accurate. Tire pressure, tire wear, diff/trans oil temp, atmo conditions (remember, SAE correction factors are estimates), even strap-down force, are all sources of variation.
IMO you're getting hoodwinked by these dynos. Dynos have a place in relative measurements for either large gains or dyno tuning (i.e., don't unbolt the car while doing turning) but in trying to judge these mamby-pamby gains or judge accuracy, they're simply not very good.
For little bolt ons on N/A butt dyno is best
But I feel like a car's on board computer will allow you to glean more info accurately. Airflow, air temperature and fuel input are all measured by the ECU. You log all that shit before and after and you will get a better sense of if a part really opened up flow and if it's actually making more power. I think a lot of ECUs can kind of self-adjust for fuel within a range which will be well within the realm of what's possible with bolt ons.... so if you put an intake on and see that the engine is either leaning out a little more at WOT or dumping more fuel than with the stock one you know it did something, and you will have a much better sense of what changes the parts had than from a noisy ass dyno.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 14, 2016, 10:22:03 PM
Accuracy and precision are not the same thing:
(http://celebrating200years.noaa.gov/magazine/tct/accuracy_vs_precision_556.jpg)
Again, there's your god laughing at you. The SAME car on the SAME dyno can have quite different readings, even if the dyno were to be perfectly accurate. Tire pressure, tire wear, diff/trans oil temp, atmo conditions (remember, SAE correction factors are estimates), even strap-down force, are all sources of variation.
IMO you're getting hoodwinked by these dynos. Dynos have a place in relative measurements for either large gains or dyno tuning (i.e., don't unbolt the car while doing turning) but in trying to judge these mamby-pamby gains or judge accuracy, they're simply not very good.
Yes, it's both precise AND accurate.
I already stated that I've dynoed my same car on the same dyno mutiple times and the measurement (same mods) always comes out nearly the exact same.
The dyno is accurate too, as when you factor in expected drivetrain loss, as well when you compare MY dyno numbers to someone else in a different region.
So this white car is actually a little more powerful than the black car, and it does feel the part a bit. So we'll see what the end result will be.
Car got some APEX ACR 8 17X9 wheels with RE11 rubber, also fitted, and also installed Schroth quick fit Pro. But the car has a misfire, so I bought a new cable to pull codes, and plan on doing some weekend maintenance.
Some pics.
Or the white car has a slightly lighter flywheel
Are those 4 point harnesses? Oh lawd. :facepalm:
six point!
I have 4 point, so I can't comment... :lol:
Arent harnesses supposed to be anchored straight back
(http://www.slingshotforums.com/attachments/belt-installa-gif.19340/)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 17, 2016, 04:41:38 PM
six point!
I have 4 point, so I can't comment... :lol:
I mean that's probably better than your stock belts. :lol:
Still though, why would you use a 4 pt over an OEM 3 point belt? Do you like submarining?
The harness is a bit mucb, isn't it?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 17, 2016, 04:05:59 PM
Or the white car has a slightly lighter flywheel
It doesn't.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 17, 2016, 06:46:03 PM
Arent harnesses supposed to be anchored straight back
(http://www.slingshotforums.com/attachments/belt-installa-gif.19340/)
When it's installed correctly, yes. That's just a picture of the mock up, and I'm not using the bottom (sub) straps.
It's also not DD friendly, but since I already installed the hardpoints, I can no just use the stock belts and pull the quick fit out for Autocross duty.
Get a rollbar, seat and 6 point. I DD'ed mine for years like that.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 17, 2016, 07:14:01 PM
Get a rollbar, seat and 6 point. I DD'ed mine for years like that.
Nah, I like having a usable back seat at times!
Quote from: thecarnut on March 17, 2016, 06:53:35 PM
I mean that's probably better than your stock belts. :lol:
Still though, why would you use a 4 pt over an OEM 3 point belt? Do you like submarining?
There were no stock belts. :lol:
I've thought about installing the 5th belt but I'd have to cut a hole in the seats and I'm lazy. Since I just autox, I keep the shoulder straps a little looser and tighten the lap belts as much as possible.
Quote from: Char on March 17, 2016, 07:30:30 PM
Nah, I like having a usable back seat at times!
How are the belts attached if you dont have a harness bar?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 17, 2016, 07:35:43 PM
How are the belts attached if you dont have a harness bar?
The mount on the seatbeat mounting underneath the back seat and use the rear seatbelt receptacles. I'm being lazy now, so I'll post online pictures, but I'll show you my car when I finally go outside.
(http://www.sportseats4u.co.uk/images/uploads/CategorySideImages/Schroth/SchrothquickfitASM2.jpg)
(http://www.sportseats4u.co.uk/images/uploads/CategorySideImages/Schroth/SchrothquickfitASM.jpg)
Interesting, never seen it done like that before.
I've seen that before. 1/10 would not buckle up and drive.
Angle is too big, belt is supposed to go straight back.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 18, 2016, 04:17:23 AM
Angle is too big, belt is supposed to go straight back.
That's from schroth directly.
Ya, well, what do they know.
And she's still slow.
Essentially stock: BMW performance exhaust, Apex ARC 8 - 245/40/17 (RE11), carbon filter removed (stock filter) and RE silicone intake hose -
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13321855_10153971194071622_3438276197411531705_n.jpg?oh=3792041840fce372611c8336d616e46f&oe=57C6719E)
15.3 @ 93.5mph. About .5 to 1mph faster than when I was on the 19s and and a complete stock intake box.
Major issues include traction, because I can't get my 60ft below 2.3. Too high and you spin, too low and the car bogs. I want to say 3000-4000rpm may be the sweet spot.
Congrats, the 1989 Taurus SHO could do 15.1 :lol:
And I'm guessing that VW cost a lot less...
Anyway I'm jealous, it would be fun to have time/cash to go dragging, and your car is still a nice one.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on March 17, 2016, 08:12:52 PM
I've seen that before. 1/10 would not buckle up and drive.
Yep. It's a ricer recipe for a broken neck. Infinitely better off (at least in a crash) using the factory lap belts. That stuff has to be done right. A harness needs a harness bar and a harness bar needs a cage.
Is that a Passat or MkIV Jetta?
Quote from: MX793 on June 09, 2016, 09:58:15 AM
Is that a Passat or MkIV Jetta?
Definitely a Jetta
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 09, 2016, 09:19:38 AM
Congrats, the 1989 Taurus SHO could do 15.1 :lol:
And I'm guessing that VW cost a lot less...
Anyway I'm jealous, it would be fun to have time/cash to go dragging, and your car is still a nice one.
I'm poor and don't have a job.
Quote from: Char on June 09, 2016, 01:35:45 PM
I'm poor and don't have a job.
why on earth are you driving a high-maintenance, expensive car then?
Quote from: GoCougs on June 09, 2016, 09:45:20 AM
Yep. It's a ricer recipe for a broken neck. Infinitely better off (at least in a crash) using the factory lap belts. That stuff has to be done right. A harness needs a harness bar and a harness bar needs a cage.
Yeah, at least stock belts will stretch and work with the airbags to keep you safe. These belts will just cause you to submarine into the footwell. Either do it properly with a real cage/rollbar and harness bar and seat or don't do it at all.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 10, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
why on earth are you driving a high-maintenance, expensive car then?
http://youtu.be/ZyhrYis509A (http://youtu.be/ZyhrYis509A)
You should be banned!
Quote from: RomanChariot on June 10, 2016, 01:43:02 PM
You should be banned!
Come on Barbie
Let's go party!!!!!!!
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 10, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
why on earth are you driving a high-maintenance, expensive car then?
He bought it when he had a jerb
Isn't a cage illegal in a road car? With a cage don't you need a helmet because otherwise in a crash you'll smash your noggin into the cage? I don't think you're allowed to wear a helmet in a street car daily driving?
Lots of road legal cars with cages in them. Depending on the cage it is advisable to always have a helmet on, but there are some that don't need it.
My dad's Camaro has a 4 point roll hoop that the harnesses loop onto. Safe mounting point + no helmet needed. But the backseat is now unusable (the cross bar is removable but I doubt it will ever be removed)
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 10, 2016, 02:04:37 PM
Come on Barbie
Let's go party!!!!!!!
I hate you so bad! Shave your head with the swooshes on the side and then we'll party ;)
Quote from: RomanChariot on June 10, 2016, 02:44:41 PM
I hate you so bad! Shave your head with the swooshes on the side and then we'll party ;)
Why would you hate me??
Everybody loves me!!!!!
Oh- sorry to hear about the jerb, seems a financially out-there move to be tracking the car.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on June 10, 2016, 12:12:23 PM
Yeah, at least stock belts will stretch and work with the airbags to keep you safe. These belts will just cause you to submarine into the footwell. Either do it properly with a real cage/rollbar and harness bar and seat or don't do it at all.
In a frontal crash - no. These belts should have zero slack (lack of a tensioner) when you're strapped in, but in the unlikely event of a rollover, I can see where that is COULD be an issue. They are not used for daily driving, just autocross.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 10, 2016, 02:09:01 PM
He bought it when he had a jerb
Correct
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 10, 2016, 03:14:40 PM
Oh- sorry to hear about the jerb, seems a financially out-there move to be tracking the car.
$20 won't kill me.
Quote from: Char on June 10, 2016, 04:40:20 PM
$20 won't kill me.
wear and tear on the car tracking it is a lot more than $20...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 11, 2016, 06:21:27 AM
wear and tear on the car tracking it is a lot more than $20...
Contrary to what most of you believe I don't think Char is dumb enough to actually abuse his car at the strip. If I did a couple 1st-3rd pulls in the middle of bumfuck no where I don't think anyone would be telling me I'm putting unnecessary wear and tear on my car.
Quote from: 68_427 on June 13, 2016, 02:08:23 AM
Contrary to what most of you believe I don't think Char is dumb enough to actually abuse his car at the strip. If I did a couple 1st-3rd pulls in the middle of bumfuck no where I don't think anyone would be telling me I'm putting unnecessary wear and tear on my car.
But you are. ;)
I imagine the pressure of people watching and the clock ticking "COULD" lead one to burn the clutch/transmission/engine/tires more than just driving it hard.
But, like everything else on the 'Spin, that's just an opinion. :huh:
Cars are a lot less fragile than people think.
Quote from: MX793 on June 13, 2016, 06:26:05 AM
Cars are a lot less fragile than people think.
I know, but when your only car is an expensive-to-fix vehicle, I'm just saying *I* would not be pushing it's limits.
Autocross isn't really that hard on a car. Drag launching also isn't that bad if done with some care.
Track lapping is the most stressful for the car IMO. Even then you can drive the car at 90-95% instead of 100% and reduce wear and tear a lot.
Yeah, autocross doesn't wear anything except for my tires.
This isn't a post to trash one tuner and talk up another, just retelling my experience:
So on the black car, I was never really happy with the tune I had. With the exception of peak horsepower, the rest of the powerband left a LOT to be desired. In fact, the first tune I got from them was VERY underwhelming:
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/samessue/Tunevsstock_zps2819befe.jpg)
Now, if you've seen other tuners claims, this does NOT match up with reality. I will say I emailed them back at the time to express how disappointed I was, and they sent me another tune which was better in every way, but I never tested it.
Next they sent me a retune for my 3 stage manifold (this is an example of what it does to a stock car, NOT my dyno)
(http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=804588&d=1357664653)
You can clearly see a good increase in torque and power - a tune will optimize that further and provide even more gains. Mine...well, check it out:
Red is my Black car stock
Green is my white car stock
Blue is my black car with the 3 stage manifold and tune
(http://i68.tinypic.com/16krokp.jpg)
Notice the lackluster improvements in torque, it doesn't really make a substantial difference in power over the STOCK CAR until around 4000rpm. Peak power was acceptable, but looking at the A/F tables, it's clear that there is a LOT left on the table!
So enter Bimmer Performance Center:
Nice.
You got that data without the smoothing correcting factor turned up to the highest setting?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on June 14, 2016, 09:40:26 AM
Nice.
Still writing the second half, I think you'll be legitimately impressed.
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2016, 09:44:34 AM
You got that data without the smoothing correcting factor turned up to the highest setting?
Want me to turn it down..for what? These are stock graphs.
To see the variability in the data... :confused:
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2016, 10:53:44 AM
To see the variability in the data... :confused:
So do you want me to turn off the correction factor OR turn down the smoothing. Or both?
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206386 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206386)
^ So BPC comes and creates a thread (after had been having weeks worth of conversations with them through emails) and there is just some fantastic stuff that happens. I'm a big fan of being able to communicate with people directly, and it doesn't get any better than this. It's huge for us, and it's huge for them.
So because we are speaking to the tuner directly, we can bounce ideas off to him: example is the 3 stage manifold has valves that adjust the intake length and volume to produce more power (which is where those 'dips' come from) Every tune I've seen doesn't modify the '4th stage' where one of the valves closes near redline as a soft limiter. I asked Bob (the tuner) if this could be corrected:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1357748&stc=1&d=1454427148)
(Here is the full graph)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1358012&stc=1&d=1454461026)
I am/was just loving the full communication - the fact that the the tunes make power is also a plus (look at the torque compared to mine!)
Anyhow, I got it in my head that the E46 M3 was going to be my benchmark - which I think is a lofty goal. You can see that the 240whp that this car produces with full bolt ons will need more...help if I'm going to keep pace with an M3.
Good thing Bob found running the car in ALFA N mode would allow some additional power - which he was already doing with the N54 (335i) intake manifold:
Tuned N54 manifold with headers and exhaust vs Tuned ALFA N N54 manifold with headers and exhaust:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1368048&stc=1&d=1455991788)
(final full graph)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1368778&stc=1&d=1456077299)
You can see the ALFA N picks up some additional power all the way around, but the N54 manifold gives up too much low to mid range for my tastes.
So I come up with the bright idea of running that same ALFA N on a 3 stage manifold car. More power, more torque - what is the downside?
So here is where things get....tricky.
Here is a 3 stage car he did:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1368790&stc=1&d=1456077878)
Bob goes and does the adjustments and comes back with some results:
Quote
Two Graphs
Stock N52 330i Red
Mods headers, full exhaust, and mods below
250rwhp / 211rwtq 3 Stage manifold with Alpha N tune & issue with 4th stage
250rwhp / 205rwtq N54 intake with our intake & Alpha N tune
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1425307&stc=1&d=1463586795)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1425308&stc=1&d=1463586795)
Overlay of the 2:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1425337&stc=1&d=1463589253)
Did you catch it? It's not the top end, it's the midrange. Bob adjusted the DISA valves to give a "smoother" powerband, which some people prefer (not I) at the expense of peak output. When the smoke clears (I inquired with Bob) he stated that the 3 stage produced 253whp at about 7100RPM and could produce over 225lb-ft!
So, with those mods, the N52 can be about 90% of a S54 -
(N54 manifold full bolt on N52 vs Stock S54)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1441991&stc=1&d=1465912783)
Needless to say, I went ahead and picked up a BPC tune, and it should be here today!
Quote from: Char on June 14, 2016, 02:02:27 PM
So do you want me to turn off the correction factor OR turn down the smoothing. Or both?
Both if you can! what's the correction factor for?
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2016, 05:37:35 PM
Both if you can! what's the correction factor for?
Weather, though it can't correct for oil temperature or ignition timing.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/30a6kcp.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2py3pfa.jpg)
Reminds me of the guys spending thousand$ to drop a few grams from their race bicycle but then eat a few cheeseburgers and weigh 15lbs more anyway.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 29, 2016, 09:44:27 AM
Reminds me of the guys spending thousand$ to drop a few grams from their race bicycle but then eat a few cheeseburgers and weigh 15lbs more anyway.
Yeah, 15lbs is equal to 50whp. Got it.
Quote from: Char on July 01, 2016, 06:58:51 AM
Yeah, 15lbs is equal to 50whp. Got it.
Yeah, cuz all the manufacturers just leave 50whp on a shelf in the back of the manufacturing plant....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 01, 2016, 11:10:10 AM
Yeah, cuz all the manufacturers just leave 50whp on a shelf in the back of the manufacturing plant....
Sure they do. Cost, fuel economy and controls for noise and emissions all work against max horsepower.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 01, 2016, 11:18:06 AM
Sure they do. Cost, fuel economy and controls for noise and emissions all work against max horsepower.
I know.
Anything can be done with enough money.
Emissions controls, depends on how creative you want to get and if you live somewhere with testing.
Noise same thing.
Thinking 50whp is just a cheap bolton is crazy though.
Well technically everything in an engine bolts together...
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 01, 2016, 12:50:23 PM
Well technically everything in an engine bolts together...
LOL but how cheap is it??
And electrical connectors snap on, don't bolt on. Sparkplugs screw in (not bolt-in) and the wires don't bolt on... :mask: :lol:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 01, 2016, 11:36:01 AM
I know.
Anything can be done with enough money.
Emissions controls, depends on how creative you want to get and if you live somewhere with testing.
Noise same thing.
Thinking 50whp is just a cheap bolton is crazy though.
Who said anything about cheap? I did full bolt ons on the black car - this car has a tune, intake manifold in the mail and is waiting on headers - then it will be full bolt ons. And yes - 40whp+ is possible.
Possible. Not reality usually. And we were talking about cheap.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 11, 2016, 05:28:46 AM
Possible. Not reality usually. And we were talking about cheap.
It's possible, it happens and it isn't that expensive.
This project is really coming together. Would be nice to have a recap for those just now joining in the conversation.
I believe it's a aftermarket air filter installed, a couple dozen tuning sessions and a header in the mail? Did I miss anything?
:lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 12, 2016, 07:29:48 AM
This project is really coming together. Would be nice to have a recap for those just now joining in the conversation.
I believe it's a aftermarket air filter installed, a couple dozen tuning sessions and a header in the mail? Did I miss anything?
:lol:
Yeah, a bunch of hating on VWs in other threads.
If I can be excited about my build anyone can
Though with the cost of dyno tunes, parts, and as MCM3 shows BMW reliability I still wonder why the Infiniti G was not chosen as the platform base. The old VQ35DE picks up where the N52 taps out, cars weigh the same, better/cheaper aftermarket support etc. I would love to get an E36 and swap a VQ35 in it
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 12, 2016, 08:36:56 AM
If I can be excited about my build anyone can
Though with the cost of dyno tunes, parts, and as MCM3 shows BMW reliability I still wonder why the Infiniti G was not chosen as the platform base. The old VQ35DE picks up where the N52 taps out, cars weigh the same, better/cheaper aftermarket support etc. I would love to get an E36 and swap a VQ35 in it
You're insane Sporty.
- My M5 troubles frankly have no bearing on "normal" BMW reliability
- If you want to tune, really, nothing could touch an N54 - that swap you suggest is so crazy I figure it has never ever been done or will be done
Also, isn't the VQ a wide motor? I don't think anything but an I6 will fit there
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2016, 12:15:41 AM
Also, isn't the VQ a wide motor? I don't think anything but an I6 will fit there
Anything can be made to fit. Plus I'm not sure the VQ is much larger than the LS, which is on of the go-to swaps for the E36.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 12, 2016, 09:39:54 PM
You're insane Sporty.
- My M5 troubles frankly have no bearing on "normal" BMW reliability
- If you want to tune, really, nothing could touch an N54 - that swap you suggest is so crazy I figure it has never ever been done or will be done
I wasn't suggesting he put the VQ in an E9x. The electronics are too complicated in these newer cars. My points are simple- for the goal he seems to be trying to achieve, a VQ equipped car (i.e. G35 coupe) would have been a better choice (which he has acknowledged in the past), as would the VW 2.0T he keeps bashing and blaming all the problems in his life on. Me wanting a VQ35 E36 was just chatter.... but yes people swap American V8s in all the time, and VQ electronics are simple enough.
An overhead cam engine is gonna be at least 6 inches wider than an LS
Not if it has half the displacement
LS swaps are so overdone. Lingenfelter needs to release their flat plane crank kit, that would make things interesting.
They're done because they work.
It might not tickle our automotive hipster gland, but when you're spending your own money, you generally want to see results other than the admiring glances of passerby.
If people valued results over the admiration of others, they wouldn't chronicle uninteresting low yield builds. And yes, I am guilty of this too.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.
Flat plane crank? Interesting but from a performance POV The GT350 has shown what a dead cat bounce that is (esp. on a non-VVL motor). No thanks. Plus, streetable pooprod motors have real issues at more than ~7,000 RPM (and the reason to do a flat plane crank is for tons of RPM) and a streetable 600 hp LS is a slam dunk.
As stated LS swaps just work. Smaller, cheaper and more power than the Modular/Coyote and more power and lighter than the gen 3 Hemi.
The VQ35 is not a narrow motor...It's not going to fit.
GT350's engine has more character than any OEM LSx ever made, so there's that.
Flat plane crank wouldn't need to prompt a higher redline. 6-7 liter engines don't need revs. What the flat plane crank would do is offer an alternative character for the LSx, making the swap less ubiquitous and monotonous. It's a great motor, but it's overplayed... flat plane crank kit would make things interesting IMO.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2016, 10:45:07 AM
The VQ35 is not a narrow motor...It's not going to fit.
Is it wider than BMW's V8/V12? Both have been fit into the E36, DOHC heads and all. And bear in mind the V8 has a wider V (90 degrees vs 60 for most V6s/V12s).
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 10:51:17 AM
GT350's engine has more character than any OEM LSx ever made, so there's that.
Flat plane crank wouldn't need to prompt a higher redline. 6-7 liter engines don't need revs. What the flat plane crank would do is offer an alternative character for the LSx, making the swap less ubiquitous and monotonous. It's a great motor, but it's overplayed... flat plane crank kit would make things interesting IMO.
Is it wider than BMW's V8/V12? Both have been fit into the E36, DOHC heads and all. And bear in mind the V8 has a wider V (90 degrees vs 60 for most V6s/V12s).
FPC buys you very little in a 2-valve motor. And in an engine that big, the NVH will be atrocious, if not destructive. Think about having a pair of 3+L I4s without counterbalance shafts...
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 12, 2016, 07:29:48 AM
This project is really coming together. Would be nice to have a recap for those just now joining in the conversation.
I believe it's a aftermarket air filter installed, a couple dozen tuning sessions and a header in the mail? Did I miss anything?
:lol:
I didn't have a job until this weeks, so sorry progress hasn't been up to your standards.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 12, 2016, 08:36:56 AM
If I can be excited about my build anyone can
Though with the cost of dyno tunes, parts, and as MCM3 shows BMW reliability I still wonder why the Infiniti G was not chosen as the platform base. The old VQ35DE picks up where the N52 taps out, cars weigh the same, better/cheaper aftermarket support etc. I would love to get an E36 and swap a VQ35 in it
Because my car is about 3300lbs without the driver, gets over 32mpg on the highway and was cheaper (by almost 50/mo) and were more readily available in the configuration I wanted. I went through this months back when you asked about it previously.
I like the G and VQ, but this was a better fit.
Quote from: Char on July 13, 2016, 11:03:54 AM
cheaper (by almost 50/mo)
Worst financial metric known to car owners anywhere
Quote from: Char on July 13, 2016, 11:03:54 AM
I didn't have a job until this weeks, so sorry progress hasn't been up to your standards.
Because my car is about 3300lbs without the driver, gets over 32mpg on the highway and was cheaper (by almost 50/mo) and were more readily available in the configuration I wanted. I went through this months back when you asked about it previously.
I like the G and VQ, but this was a better fit.
A GTI 2.0turd gets 33-34 MPG, is hilariously faster than anything with an N52 that has 4+ seats, weighs about 2900lbs these days, and can be had for cheap. It's not a RWD luxury car but so what? Neither is the Accord Sport you have previously recommended to men here. So I'm just having trouble following your logic.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 02:00:25 PM
A GTI 2.0turd gets 33-34 MPG, is hilariously faster than anything with an N52 that has 4+ seats, weighs about 2900lbs these days, and can be had for cheap. It's not a RWD luxury car but so what? Neither is the Accord Sport you have previously recommended to men here. So I'm just having trouble following your logic.
Faster than who?
It's also a VW with shit quality reliability , handling, and is pretty garbage by every objective measure.
I'm happy with my choice, and if you drove my car, you would be too.
For what it's worth, the VQ is pretty compact AND light.
Quote from: Char on July 13, 2016, 03:59:00 PM
Faster than who?
It's also a VW with shit quality reliability , handling, and is pretty garbage by every objective measure.
I'm happy with my choice, and if you drove my car, you would be too.
For what it's worth, the VQ is pretty compact AND light.
Out of the box a GTI out accelerates and outgrips your car while getting better fuel mileage and being way more practical. BMW is hardly super reliable either. We've been through this already but it's important every now and then to reiterate how your anti VW jihad undermines the little shred of credibility you are so desperate to wield over others. I'm done though, just tired of your anti VW shit.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 04:28:43 PM
Out of the box a GTI out accelerates and outgrips your car while getting better fuel mileage and being way more practical. BMW is hardly super reliable either. We've been through this already but it's important every now and then to reiterate how your anti VW jihad undermines the little shred of credibility you are so desperate to wield over others. I'm done though, just tired of your anti VW shit.
Faster than who, again - what VW and what driver?
Better handling and grip than what? My car? Hardly.
VW is a garbage fuck brand, and the sooner you guys stop acting like it's the second coming to ACTUAL enthusiasts, we can move on.
Can we just stop arguing and get back to the mediocre topic at hand.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 13, 2016, 04:35:11 PM
Can we just stop arguing and get back to the mediocre topic at hand.
the only mediocre topic at hand is people talking about VWs.
If this was a mediocre topic, 1. Why are you here and 2. How did it get so many views?
Sorry I'm not a hard parker with more money than sense.
hard parker?
hard pecker?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 13, 2016, 05:22:24 PM
hard parker?
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/KrK007/Car-BOA-Parking1.jpg)
0-60 in 5.6 seconds is slow?? It's like a full second quicker than a 325i, still half a second quicker than the 330i, about the same in regards to performance as the new F30 328i, and still like a second faster than the old 328 E9X cars..... :huh:
Quote from: Char on July 13, 2016, 04:43:45 PM
the only mediocre topic at hand is people talking about VWs.
If this was a mediocre topic, 1. Why are you here and 2. How did it get so many views?
Sorry I'm not a hard parker with more money than sense.
It's a mediocre topic, but we all check in to watch for your latest VW rant. Now those are amusing.
In case you missed this; nobody here is a VW owner. The only reason it keeps getting brought up is because your responses to anything Volkswagen are hilarious. It's like watching a train wreck.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 13, 2016, 06:10:09 PM
It's like watching a train wreck.
It's like watching a redneck run out of gas in his jacked up pickup on the tracks.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 13, 2016, 05:49:41 PM
hard pecker?
Not interested.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 13, 2016, 05:57:35 PM
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w199/KrK007/Car-BOA-Parking1.jpg)
Close enough:
(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s640x640/e35/sh0.08/11379781_104765983202912_925074752_n.jpg)
the caption literally states "Dope MK5 hard parked"
Quote from: 2o6 on July 13, 2016, 06:07:30 PM
0-60 in 5.6 seconds is slow?? It's like a full second quicker than a 325i, still half a second quicker than the 330i, about the same in regards to performance as the new F30 328i, and still like a second faster than the old 328 E9X cars..... :huh:
WHAT CAR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?!
Not to bench race or anything but a E90 was already in the 5 second range:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-infiniti-g37-vs-bmw-328i-audi-a4-and-acura-tlsportsedans-powertrain.pdf (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-infiniti-g37-vs-bmw-328i-audi-a4-and-acura-tlsportsedans-powertrain.pdf)
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2006-bmw-330i-road-test-driving-impression-page-1 (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2006-bmw-330i-road-test-driving-impression-page-1)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 13, 2016, 06:10:09 PM
It's a mediocre topic, but we all check in to watch for your latest VW rant. Now those are amusing.
In case you missed this; nobody here is a VW owner. The only reason it keeps getting brought up is because your responses to anything Volkswagen are hilarious. It's like watching a train wreck.
You don't have to come to this thread to watch that, trust me.
And PLENTY of people here are VW owners, you're getting a little forgetful there.
Is hard parked a "stance" term or just a term used for douche cars parallel parked? :wtf:
Those PDFs don't really say anything. It just says the current GTI is as fast as those sporty entry level cars....not to mention the GTI is a different type of car, and this is hella silly to compare the two :facepalm:
Not to mention that stance nation tards go after literally every type of car....
I think the only current vw Product we have is SGTI's S4, and I think MX has a beater MKV Jetta to tool around in the winter :huh:
It's a really strange thing you rant about. Like REALLY FUCKING WEIRD.
Char is right, only VW owners stance
(http://www.stancenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Santtu-Kilipinen.jpg)
(https://scrapedcrusaders.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/7694501924_89cf48a7e8_h.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/db/2e/d7/db2ed7eba60760e85273fed8830b69f6.jpg)
Lulz what a fucking idiot.
And "not to bench race" but 5.6 is still faster than 5.9. And for the $500 it would cost to get a tune for the GTI that would culo blast your build you probably couldn't even get an authentic DINAN badge :lol:
But keep fighting the good fight for "real enthusiasts" and "real men" :pee:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 13, 2016, 06:10:09 PM
It's a mediocre topic, but we all check in to watch for your latest VW rant. Now those are amusing.
In case you missed this; nobody here is a VW owner. The only reason it keeps getting brought up is because your responses to anything Volkswagen are hilarious. It's like watching a train wreck.
I drive an S4, which is basically a VW Jetta.
Doesn't dazzleman have an A6? I think that is basically a VW Passat.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 06:17:54 AM
I drive an S4, which is basically a VW Jetta.
Doesn't dazzleman have an A6? I think that is basically a VW Passat.
Ok, but they don't actually say "VW" on the registration papers. You're a VWAG product owner, but not a VW owner.
veeman, Tave and myself all have bonafide VWs.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2016, 06:39:40 AM
veeman, Tave and myself all have bonafide VWs.
OK. Should have remembered yours I suppose.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 14, 2016, 12:44:15 AM
Those PDFs don't really say anything. It just says the current GTI is as fast as those sporty entry level cars....not to mention the GTI is a different type of car, and this is hella silly to compare the two :facepalm:
Not to mention that stance nation tards go after literally every type of car....
I think the only current vw Product we have is SGTI's S4, and I think MX has a beater MKV Jetta to tool around in the winter :huh:
It's a really strange thing you rant about. Like REALLY FUCKING WEIRD.
Wait.
1. I didn't make the comparison between the mystery VW and my car. I literally have no idea what VW you and Sporty are talking about.
2. Yes, the stance nation idiots will rice any car, but VWs were the primary focus. Now we have a bunch of terrible looking cars with former VW owners driving them.
3. Addressed below. SJ's Jetta and Dazzleman's Passat - Sporty has a Jetta, as does Tave.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 14, 2016, 06:33:32 AM
Ok, but they don't actually say "VW" on the registration papers. You're a VWAG product owner, but not a VW owner.
Not really a huge difference. A Fbody was still the same car underneath the sheet metal, regardless of the badge.
I drive a VW all the time. 100 hp of pure fury :thumbsup:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 14, 2016, 08:13:25 AM
I drive a VW all the time. 100 hp of pure fury :thumbsup:
I've owned three. If I added all their Hp together, they might have beaten that.
I had a Jetta once. Aside from having a strange salvage title, it drove pretty good and I made like $600 off it.
I think my next car will be a Jetta.
Quote from: Char on July 14, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
Wait.
Not really a huge difference. A Fbody was still the same car underneath the sheet metal, regardless of the badge.
That comparison isn't even remotely accurate lol
Quote from: Char on July 14, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
Wait.
1. I didn't make the comparison between the mystery VW and my car. I literally have no idea what VW you and Sporty are talking about.
That reading comprehension, tho.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 02:00:25 PM
A GTI 2.0turd gets 33-34 MPG, is hilariously faster than anything with an N52 that has 4+ seats...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 04:28:43 PM
Out of the box a GTI...
I have a genuine VW
LOL at overpriced German car owner ragging on German cars
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on July 14, 2016, 10:55:32 AM
LOL at overpriced German car owner ragging on German cars
Well, now you know I speak from experience.
Quote from: Char on July 14, 2016, 10:54:43 AM
Mark 5, 6 or 7?
IIRC you paid like $20K for your 328i and it's not hard to get an MK7 at that price. So that was my point of reference.
Even if not though, out of the box your car is a hair faster than the MK5-6, but again an equally expensive/intensive "build" and tune would render that moot, all the way down to the carbon-deposited intake valve having MKV (just like your car's big brother ;) )
So no matter how you slice it, in the context of what you want out of your build the EA888 has the N52's goat. If it didn't, BMW wouldn't have replaced it with the N20 :ohyeah:
Re: "what WHP does a tune yield on an MKV GTI"
Yes, 231WHP is about right, along with about 270-280WTQ, for like $500.
Compare that to your build- IM swap, a race header that deletes the pre-cats and by extension is illegal, and apparently a year's worth of monthy dyno tuning- to get that same WHP and a gearing normalized ~250WTQ. Seems weird that spending more to get less = better to you :huh:
Plus you say the G35 would have cost too much... how much have you spent on this build/perpetual tune? :confused: Again out of the box the oldest cheapest G would give you 240/240 out of the box no problem. So if you want to levy such strong judgments of others you should probably not undertake projects of questionable logic yourself..... or undertake a build that yields worse value than the cars you bash.....
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/bcdb160aacf293c4a9091c63ff369e92/tumblr_n0k0vsVLHh1s34cico1_500.gif)
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 14, 2016, 12:54:58 PM
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/bcdb160aacf293c4a9091c63ff369e92/tumblr_n0k0vsVLHh1s34cico1_500.gif)
= this thread :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2016, 12:39:55 PM
Re: "what WHP does a tune yield on an MKV GTI"
Yes, 231WHP is about right, along with about 270-280WTQ, for like $500.
Compare that to your build- IM swap, a race header that deletes the pre-cats and by extension is illegal, and apparently a year's worth of monthy dyno tuning- to get that same WHP and a gearing normalized ~250WTQ. Seems weird that spending more to get less = better to you :huh:
Plus you say the G35 would have cost too much... how much have you spent on this build/perpetual tune? :confused: Again out of the box the oldest cheapest G would give you 240/240 out of the box no problem. So if you want to levy such strong judgments of others you should probably not undertake projects of questionable logic yourself..... or undertake a build that yields worse value than the cars you bash.....
I've done no dyno tuning, I've done data collecting, and would have done that regardless of the car I owned.
The G35/37 was more costly to insure, had poorer fuel economy (my a significant margin) and was harder to find in the configuration I wanted.
The Golf GTI requires a catless downpipe to run the stage 2 tune - which puts it on par with my old car with a tune and intake manifold (and my car was still emissions legal)
No matter how much you polish a turd, it's still going to be a VW
So can we all stop pretending here: VW fucking sucks donkey dick. The cars hot fucking garbage. The engines are garbage. The brand has no real heritage, there is no mythos behind it.
We (you) buy the cars because it's a compromise, because it a box that gets you from a to b -to make money to do/buy things you really want.
I understand that, and for basic transportation, they are almost acceptable, if it weren't for..you know...every other car in existence actually existing.
For people who call themselves enthusiasts, you fawn over the shittiest of cars with the worst set of compromises - it boggles my mind.
No heritage behind it? Well, you can argue whether BMW or Porsche/Volkswagen provided more targets for the allies to blow up all you want, but Volkswagen was selling cars in the US while BMW was still figuring out which side the door was supposed to go on on their silly little vehicles they were building under he license of an Italian refrigerator manufacturer.
You can argue all the rest all you want, but without VW, the history of the automobile would look strangely thin.
Idk man, this car kind of set the template for modern small cars that's followed to this day
:huh:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Btp86FKDfa0/T0LC3ogS1kI/AAAAAAAAQQ0/mivGNAYalcc/s1600/Volkswagen-Golf-I-1974-rear.jpg)
The fastest FWD car on the nurburgring is a VW product. Actually, it's a Seat Leon, which is basically a GTI.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 12:11:37 PM
The fastest FWD car on the nurburgring is a VW product. Actually, it's a Seat Leon, which is basically a GTI.
Ok, but that's sort of like arguing who the healthiest person in the cancer ward is.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 15, 2016, 12:18:03 PM
Ok, but that's sort of like arguing who the healthiest person in the cancer ward is.
Eh, less than 8 mins on that thing is a pretty mean feat.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 12:21:46 PM
Eh, less than 8 mins on that thing is a pretty mean feat.
For sure. Is it slower or faster than the RWD and AWD records though?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 15, 2016, 11:48:19 AM
No heritage behind it? Well, you can argue whether BMW or Porsche/Volkswagen provided more targets for the allies to blow up all you want, but Volkswagen was selling cars in the US while BMW was still figuring out which side the door was supposed to go on on their silly little vehicles they were building under he license of an Italian refrigerator manufacturer.
You can argue all the rest all you want, but without VW, the history of the automobile would look strangely thin.
Not really, their most remarkable/notable contribution to the automotive world was the Beetle. Everything after that was forgettable (and rightfully so) they have done nothing significant, and will never be better than the sum of their subpar parts.
FYI BMW was building cars before the people's party came up with the Beetle.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 11:58:04 AM
Idk man, this car kind of set the template for modern small cars that's followed to this day
:huh:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Btp86FKDfa0/T0LC3ogS1kI/AAAAAAAAQQ0/mivGNAYalcc/s1600/Volkswagen-Golf-I-1974-rear.jpg)
Compact hatches existed before the Golf, and nearly all of them are better.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 15, 2016, 12:33:12 PM
For sure. Is it slower or faster than the RWD and AWD records though?
A lot slower. If wikipedia is to believed, the fastest RWD car is a radical SR8, which is barely street legal version of what is basically an LM car
And the AWD record is the Porsche 918 spyder....which is a hypercar.
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 12:36:43 PM
Compact hatches existed before the Golf, and nearly all of them are better.
:wtf:
I think it's obvious this is supposed to be some alternate troll persona he's pushing. It has all the right indicators, from the venomous hatred to the outrageous claims and insults.
The problem is that it isn't any good, total fail when it comes to professional trolling on an automotive board.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 15, 2016, 12:39:43 PM
I think it's obvious this is supposed to be some alternate troll persona he's pushing. It has all the right indicators, from the venomous hatred to the outrageous claims and insults.
The problem is that it isn't any good, total fail when it comes to professional trolling on an automotive board.
Are we the trial run?
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
:wtf:
Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hatch
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 15, 2016, 12:39:43 PM
I think it's obvious this is supposed to be some alternate troll persona he's pushing. It has all the right indicators, from the venomous hatred to the outrageous claims and insults.
The problem is that it isn't any good, total fail when it comes to professional trolling on an automotive board.
You call it trolling, I call it truth.
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 12:47:54 PM
Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hatch
Yea this is def a troll
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 12:58:00 PM
Yea this is def a troll
Yep. And this thread is his 35 page buffet.
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
I've done no dyno tuning, I've done data collecting, and would have done that regardless of the car I owned.
The G35/37 was more costly to insure, had poorer fuel economy (my a significant margin) and was harder to find in the configuration I wanted.
The Golf GTI requires a catless downpipe to run the stage 2 tune - which puts it on par with my old car with a tune and intake manifold (and my car was still emissions legal)
My power numbers were citing the stage 1 tune with the stock downpipe in place. And again, there are MK7 GTIs for close to what you paid for your car putting down said ~230WHP bone stock. No tune required.
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 11:21:16 AMNo matter how much you polish a turd, it's still going to be a VW
So can we all stop pretending here: VW fucking sucks donkey dick. The cars hot fucking garbage. The engines are garbage. The brand has no real heritage, there is no mythos behind it.
We (you) buy the cars because it's a compromise, because it a box that gets you from a to b -to make money to do/buy things you really want.
I understand that, and for basic transportation, they are almost acceptable, if it weren't for..you know...every other car in existence actually existing.
For people who call themselves enthusiasts, you fawn over the shittiest of cars with the worst set of compromises - it boggles my mind.
VW has as much heritage as BMW, if not more, if you want to play that game. Way more than the Infinitis you can't afford. And H&H only matters to fanbois. H&H doesn't make a CLA or 318ti any less of a turd.
I think you are the only person here who calls himself an "enthusiast" as such labels help give your life meaning. CarSPIN is mainly a politics & conspicuous consumption forum populated by a bunch of guys who somewhat like cars and motorcycles. Not a forum full of guys who define their life's worth by how many HPs they can eek out of a tune.
Like I've asked before and you've been unable to answer- if the 'SPIN hivemind's taste in cars is so shitty, and nobody cares about your build, why do you post here? That you continue to post on a forum full of people who don't give a shit about the things that keep you up at night is the real mind boggling conundrum here.
You guys just can't handle Char droppin truth bombs on the'Spin.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 15, 2016, 01:19:31 PM
My power numbers were citing the stage 1 tune with the stock downpipe in place. And again, there are MK7 GTIs for close to what you paid for your car putting down said ~230WHP bone stock. No tune required.
VW has as much heritage as BMW, if not more, if you want to play that game. Way more than the Infinitis you can't afford. And H&H only matters to fanbois. H&H doesn't make a CLA or 318ti any less of a turd.
I think you are the only person here who calls himself an "enthusiast" as such labels help give your life meaning. CarSPIN is mainly a politics & conspicuous consumption forum populated by a bunch of guys who somewhat like cars and motorcycles. Not a forum full of guys who define their life's worth by how many HPs they can eek out of a tune.
Like I've asked before and you've been unable to answer- if the 'SPIN hivemind's taste in cars is so shitty, and nobody cares about your build, why do you post here? That you continue to post on a forum full of people who don't give a shit about the things that keep you up at night is the real mind boggling conundrum here.
The luz are at a all time high here:
Tune only N52 (330i)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10846030_1111255635569378_1625665783504180654_n.png?oh=5c1538c58a463b68f724269e566b6ba9&oe=57AD9678)
Quote from: BPCThe Red and Blue lines correspond to Before and After, as you can see the broken DISA valve was a big hindrance to not only the performance but efficiency of the motor too.
Once repaired, a custom tune (Green Line) in cooperation with Active Autowerke was installed to take full advantage and netted us with some very healthy results
This was before the most recent tune revision that they did with some additional improvements. That puts it firmly above any GTI stock and stage one - oh and its emissions equipment is still intact.
Second the GTi i 25K, that was Mustang money, which does everything better (and was on my list) but I ended up with the proven choice (for me) The 335i was also on there briefly, but I prefer NA, even if it meant being slower (which is why the Mustang, G35/7 and N52 BMWs were top picks - and all are RWD)
BUT the G wasn't something I couldn't afford, it was something I didn't WANT to afford. Paying another 2 grand a year for marginal (at best) benefits wasn't worth t to me, just like throughly researching yp5ur statements and making good points aren't a priority for you.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 15, 2016, 01:21:41 PM
You guys just can't handle Char droppin truth bombs on the'Spin.
For a guy who drives a Jetta, you're not half bad.
Look at all those dynographs
"Hi, my name is Char."
"Tell me something about yourself."
"I drive a rear wheel drive BMW that makes two hundred and thirty SAE corrected horsepower on a chassis dyno."
"Ummmm.... tell me something else."
"That's it."
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 15, 2016, 01:19:31 PM
My power numbers were citing the stage 1 tune with the stock downpipe in place. And again, there are MK7 GTIs for close to what you paid for your car putting down said ~230WHP bone stock. No tune required.
VW has as much heritage as BMW, if not more, if you want to play that game. Way more than the Infinitis you can't afford. And H&H only matters to fanbois. H&H doesn't make a CLA or 318ti any less of a turd.
I think you are the only person here who calls himself an "enthusiast" as such labels help give your life meaning. CarSPIN is mainly a politics & conspicuous consumption forum populated by a bunch of guys who somewhat like cars and motorcycles. Not a forum full of guys who define their life's worth by how many HPs they can eek out of a tune.
Like I've asked before and you've been unable to answer- if the 'SPIN hivemind's taste in cars is so shitty, and nobody cares about your build, why do you post here? That you continue to post on a forum full of people who don't give a shit about the things that keep you up at night is the real mind boggling conundrum here.
Count me out of the VW loving hivemind.
Char's E92 vs GTI
- Looks like a real car
- Has more fun handling
- A smoother much better sounding engine
- Better interior
- RWD (yeah it actually matters)
So the GTI is faster in a straight line. I don't give a fuck I'd take the bimmer every time forever.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
The Bimmer will get you more bitches too. But I guess that's why no one here cares. :lol:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 15, 2016, 03:03:03 PM
Count me out of the VW loving hivemind.
Char's E92 vs GTI
- Looks like a real car
- Has more fun handling
- A smoother much better sounding engine
- Better interior
- RWD (yeah it actually matters)
So the GTI is faster in a straight line. I don't give a fuck I'd take the bimmer every time forever.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
You're char. I knew it.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 15, 2016, 03:07:01 PM
The Bimmer will get you more bitches too. But I guess that's why no one here cares. :lol:
:golfclap:
As much as I enjoy Char's misplaced hate of VW, I too would never get a GTI over a 3, even though we've established the 3 series has a shitty front suspension design. :lol:
RWD + straight 6 is an enthusiast's wet dream. To argue a 4cyl FWD econobox is better is just silly.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 15, 2016, 03:48:46 PM
As much as I enjoy Char's misplaced hate of VW, I too would never get a GTI over a 3, even though we've established the 3 series has a shitty front suspension design. :lol:
RWD + straight 6 is an enthusiast's wet dream. To argue a 4cyl FWD econobox is better is just silly.
I don't think anyone was saying it was "better" just saying that it's not "crap".
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2016, 03:53:04 PM
I don't think anyone was saying it was "better" just saying that it's not "crap".
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 04:37:34 AM
I wasn't suggesting he put the VQ in an E9x. The electronics are too complicated in these newer cars. My points are simple- for the goal he seems to be trying to achieve, a VQ equipped car (i.e. G35 coupe) would have been a better choice (which he has acknowledged in the past), as would the VW 2.0T he keeps bashing and blaming all the problems in his life on. Me wanting a VQ35 E36 was just chatter.... but yes people swap American V8s in all the time, and VQ electronics are simple enough.
Sporty seemed to be implying he should have gotten a GTI.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 15, 2016, 03:07:01 PM
The Bimmer will get you more bitches too. But I guess that's why no one here cares. :lol:
Lol
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 15, 2016, 03:55:23 PM
Sporty seemed to be implying he should have gotten a GTI.
Well, that's just Sporty. We all know how he is
:lol:
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 15, 2016, 03:48:46 PM
As much as I enjoy Char's misplaced hate of VW, I too would never get a GTI over a 3, even though we've established the 3 series has a shitty front suspension design. :lol:
RWD + straight 6 is an enthusiast's wet dream. To argue a 4cyl FWD econobox is better is just silly.
As someone who did choose a GTI over a 3-series I fully agree with the above.
I am pretty happy with my Jetta though TBH.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 15, 2016, 04:03:03 PM
As someone who did choose a GTI over a 3-series I fully agree with the above.
I am pretty happy with my Jetta though TBH.
Automatic 2.slow
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 15, 2016, 02:43:15 PM
"Hi, my name is Char."
"Tell me something about yourself."
"I drive a rear wheel drive BMW that makes two hundred and thirty SAE corrected horsepower on a chassis dyno."
"Ummmm.... tell me something else."
"That's it."
"I hate VWs."
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 15, 2016, 03:48:46 PM
As much as I enjoy Char's misplaced hate of VW, I too would never get a GTI over a 3, even though we've established the 3 series has a shitty front suspension design. :lol:
RWD + straight 6 is an enthusiast's wet dream. To argue a 4cyl FWD econobox is better is just silly.
I agree. If it was in the budget, I'd have ended up with a 128i
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 15, 2016, 03:07:01 PM
The Bimmer will get you more bitches too. But I guess that's why no one here cares. :lol:
I lol'd pretty hard.
Also, this came in
I get a lot of heat for hating VW, but we literally had someone say they thought a JETTA was more fun than a bonafide sports car - I call him (and those complacent woth that perspective) out on their shit, and I'm a villian.
No real car enthusiasts in the world WOULDN'T laugh at that. Let's be real here.
This is lol worthy
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 15, 2016, 03:55:23 PM
Sporty seemed to be implying he should have gotten a GTI.
To acquire the horse powers, yes
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 07:11:44 PM
I get a lot of heat for hating VW, but we literally had someone say they thought a JETTA was more fun than a bonafide sports car - I call him (and those complacent woth that perspective) out on their shit, and I'm a villian.
No real car enthusiasts in the world WOULDN'T laugh at that. Let's be real here.
We aren't real enthusiasts here. That's a good thing.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 15, 2016, 07:41:22 PM
To acquire the horse powers, yes
If I wanted to swing my dick around for big numbers a S54 or a 335 would be better options and not tied to a shit FWD car with a shit motor. The E888 basically maxes out at 250whp, and then you're looking at a Turbo upgrade.
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 11:27:33 PM
If I wanted to swing my dick around for big numbers a S54 or a 335 would be better options and not tied to a shit FWD car with a shit motor. The E888 basically maxes out at 250whp, and then you're looking at a Turbo upgrade.
You still want to present your automotive penis to strangers for self-validation; you are just doing it with tweezers and a loupe.
And a turbo upgrade would not cost much more than what you have planned, while obviously yielding way more power. Or one could just buy an MK6 Golf R and skip all that hassle, as well as be able to make use of the added power, again for probably less than what you are going to spend on this endeavor.
So if you want to build an E9x 328i go for it.... but spare us the adolescent judgements and decrees from on high, especially when the logic behind them boils down to "VW is shit VW is shit VW is shit VW is shit". You're no less of an asshole or idiot because of the car you drive- in fact you pretty much embody every negative stereotype about BMW owners. Self-righteous, indignant, financially reckless. But at least you don't drive a VW :rolleyes:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 16, 2016, 06:54:53 AM
You're no less of an asshole or idiot because of the car you drive
Last warning. Keep it civil or you'll be gone for a week,
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 16, 2016, 06:54:53 AM
And a turbo upgrade would not cost much more than what you have planned, while obviously yielding way more power. Or one could just buy an MK6 Golf R and skip all that hassle, as well as be able to make use of the added power, again for probably less than what you are going to spend on this endeavor.
Are you really arguing for the GTI as a superior tuning choice for power than an N54(definitely) or S54(true but expensive) bimmer?
Also, I think everyone here knows that the GTI is faster in a straight line and can be upgraded more cheaply than an E92 328i. That making it a better choice than the E92 I don't agree with.
I don't understand why people are simplifying it down to two choices??? I don't understand where this myth that the 2.0T isn't a good motor to tune and there's no aftermarket support or enthusiast following for it??? And why were we comparing or saying that the 2.0T was better?? All I was saying that it wasn't "crap" and that I still don't understand the saying that it's "crap" when it's still objectively fast, tractable, has lots of mods out there...
That's what keeps happening in these threads - you guys simplify this down to all or nothing, when both cars have a storied history of tuning and modifying and being fast and fun to drive. This is literally one of the dumbest carspin debates ever; because I guarantee in a week you'll all be back to extolling and fawning over some other VW 2.0T product. I mean, you guys can't seem to shut the fuck up about the Skoda Octavia VRS and it's literally a long GTI.
(You guys did this with the BRZ too! Remember when everyone loved it? Now you guys practically think it's a damn Yugo!)
Also an S4 isn't a Jetta! They're not even remotely the same.
If the S4 is a Jetta, then a 328i F30 is a Mini Clubman.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 16, 2016, 07:17:54 AM
Are you really arguing for the GTI as a superior tuning choice for power than an N54(definitely) or S54(true but expensive) bimmer?
Also, I think everyone here knows that the GTI is faster in a straight line and can be upgraded more cheaply than an E92 328i. That making it a better choice than the E92 I don't agree with.
I'd wager a late model GTI is faster around a track than a E9x 328 as well, out of the box. In C&D's lightning lap, the last GTI they tested lapped within a second of a E9x 335.
The GTI is a really fast car in very many metrics! There's a reason it keeps winning most hot hatch challenges
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 16, 2016, 06:54:53 AM
You still want to present your automotive penis to strangers for self-validation; you are just doing it with tweezers and a loupe.
And a turbo upgrade would not cost much more than what you have planned, while obviously yielding way more power. Or one could just buy an MK6 Golf R and skip all that hassle, as well as be able to make use of the added power, again for probably less than what you are going to spend on this endeavor.
So if you want to build an E9x 328i go for it.... but spare us the adolescent judgements and decrees from on high, especially when the logic behind them boils down to "VW is shit VW is shit VW is shit VW is shit". You're no less of an asshole or idiot because of the car you drive- in fact you pretty much embody every negative stereotype about BMW owners. Self-righteous, indignant, financially reckless. But at least you don't drive a VW :rolleyes:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 16, 2016, 07:15:09 AM
Last warning. Keep it civil or you'll be gone for a week,
I'm not going to lie and say I don't troll...a lot, but get a fucking grip here dude.
You have been droning on for YEARS for the desire to have a lightweight RWD coupe/sedan with reasonable power and stick.
GUESS WHAT I OWN.
It checked all the right boxes:
Manual
RWD
Coupe
Lightweight
Naturally aspirated
There where other cars I considered - the G37, BRZ, Genesis Coupe and even the Mustang.
I did some reading, and then read more -
G37 was thirsty, had high oil temp issues even without hard driving. Then there was the piss poor fuel economy and higher insurance cost, and higher weight.
The BRZ was just too weak/slow for the price they asked, otherwise I had nothing against this car. I wish I drove it, I assume I would like it (I liked the idea of it)
The Genesis coupe was a bust - dated interior, questionable manual transmission that seemed to just grenade itself.
And Mustang was there briefly, until everyone told me not to bother with a V6/4Cyl when I could buy a V8. The package itself did seem reasonable, but there was always that feeling I would get because I drove a Mustang that wasn't "proper" It's silly, and peer pressure normally doesn't bother me, but this one made me think
**************************
(I'll add in MexicoCity told me to consider the E46 M3 - which I REALLY wish I took more of a consideration for, it's my favorite BMW of all time)
In the end, I got nearly exactly what I wanted. The E92 is glaringly slow compared to other cars, much less a 335i (which was on the list) but it was the right car at the right time, and I don't really regret my decision one bit.
Of all people, I expected YOU to understand where I was coming from. There are PLENTY of cars that make more power, I could have had a 335i and done this:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160315/d6852458aac0727837599fdcb66e9225.jpg)
(Looks like a powerband of a pickup truck)
Sure it's fast, but it's about MORE THAN POWER, it's more than speed. Turbo cars just lack the character that N/A cars have, the unmuffled mechanical sound they produce, the visceral feeling that N/A cars give - it's MORE THAN NUMBERS, it's something that I can't accurately quantify.
Yes everything is moving to Turbochargers
YES there is more HP per dollar in a turbo car
No - I don't care.
I like my car, and I'm extremely happy with my choice though if I could go back and do it over again, I would consider a N55 335i or a E46 M3 regardless of mileage. For the time being, I'm focused on building the car I WANT, how I think BMW should have built it.
Sure it's not logical and it doesn't make complete sense, but it's fun. Isn't that what it should be about?
Quote from: MX793 on July 16, 2016, 08:03:25 AM
I'd wager a late model GTI is faster around a track than a E9x 328 as well, out of the box. In C&D's lightning lap, the last GTI they tested lapped within a second of a E9x 335.
I remember the Mustang V6 being faster than both, along with the
2006 Nissan 350Z - the
King of LL1.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 08:06:01 AM
The GTI is a really fast car in very many metrics! There's a reason it keeps winning most hot hatch challenges
It could be Obama's 3rd term and I would still hate it.
I'm not a fan of hatchbacks, I'm not a fan of VW and I'm not a fan of FWD.
I'm sure it's objectively a good car, but there is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that it's not a steaming pile of shit, no matter what it does. CarSpin has effectively ruined me on liking the brand as a whole - people here are fawning over the
dumbest shit I've seen.
"A LONG WHEELBASE GOLF? SIGN ME RIGHT THE FUCK UP"
"OMG A AWD GOLF- IT'S THE SECOND COMING"
"THE GOLF IS A HATCH, IT'S A GREAT PERFECT PACKAGE"
Like guys - shut the fuck up. It's a hopped up economy car in a ugly little package which until recently included a crap motor (timing belts? Carbon build up?) an AWD system that was essentially trash, and too high of a price that put it in range of REAL cars.
MY Build thread isn't about the Golf - it's fun to troll people who get too emotional over it, but I don't give a fuck about them. They literally have ZERO showing out on any motorsport, meaning it's good on paper and not actually driving.
Great post.
While we're on the subject of the virtues of natural aspiration and irrational decisions.
I need to drive about 500 miles today to go pickup my family. Since the M5 is out of commission the logical choice is of course, the Countryman.
Well - let me tell you this. We're about to find out if the E46 will baby. Wife won't be thrilled when I pull up in it. What's the point of an M car if not carrying the family? Otherwise I'd have gotten a two seater.
Something tells me that logic won't be quite so clear to my wife........
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on July 16, 2016, 08:34:51 AM
Great post.
While we're on the subject of the virtues of natural aspiration and irrational decisions.
I need to drive about 500 miles today to go pickup my family. Since the M5 is out of commission the logical choice is of course, the Countryman.
Well - let me tell you this. We're about to find out if the E46 will baby. Wife won't be thrilled when I pull up in it. What's the point of an M car if not carrying the family? Otherwise I'd have gotten a two seater.
Something tells me that logic won't be quite so clear to my wife........
I wish I listen more to you more (and here I go)
I was wrong, you were right. I should have gotten a S54 E46 M3, it's literally the car I'm building my car to be. In my opinion, no car does a better job of embodying BMW/M than the E46. It still looks great, it's flexible in what it can do (a real usable back seat!) it's performance is STILL impressive and it has the one of the best 6 cylinders on the planet. It's a great car, and hanging out on M3forums just makes me want one more and more.
Still, I think I can make my car 90% of what a E46 M is, while still being streetable/DD friendly, but I know I'll still have the ///M envy....at least until I buy my first Porsche.
It just seems really silly - mostly becuase Porsche and VW are tied at the hip (isn't the 2.0T in the new Cayman??)
Like REALLY silly. :huh:
But people also called me silly when I nearly pulled the trigger on a Manual C-class about a year ago. I liked it more than the E9X cars.
I will say that your vitriol makes me want a Jetta. And I've been pretty lukewarm on VW products as a whole.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 08:51:02 AM
It just seems really silly - mostly becuase Porsche and VW are tied at the hip (isn't the 2.0T in the new Cayman??)
Like REALLY silly. :huh:
But people also called me silly when I nearly pulled the trigger on a Manual C-class about a year ago. I liked it more than the E9X cars.
Pretty sure it's a different engine.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 08:52:45 AM
I will say that your vitriol makes me want a Jetta. And I've been pretty lukewarm on VW products as a whole.
Knock yourself out, you're not hurting me.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 08:51:02 AM
It just seems really silly - mostly becuase Porsche and VW are tied at the hip (isn't the 2.0T in the new Cayman??)
Like REALLY silly. :huh:
But people also called me silly when I nearly pulled the trigger on a Manual C-class about a year ago. I liked it more than the E9X cars.
The 4-bangers in the new 718 Coxster are flat-4s (the new flat-6 with 2 cylinders chopped off). Completely unrelated.
Oh yeah. Oh well.
It still seems really silly.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 07:59:50 AM
(You guys did this with the BRZ too! Remember when everyone loved it? Now you guys practically think it's a damn Yugo!)
I just want to point out that I had complaints about them on day 1. :praise:
Quote from: Char on July 15, 2016, 07:11:44 PM
I get a lot of heat for hating VW, but we literally had someone say they thought a JETTA was more fun than a bonafide sports car - I call him (and those complacent woth that perspective) out on their shit, and I'm a villian.
No real car enthusiasts in the world WOULDN'T laugh at that. Let's be real here.
1. I've actually driven both of them. Have you?
2. The 350Z is not a sports car. It's a GT--the fixed roof and high weight (more than my old Jetta) more than prove that.
3. I've owned two actual sports cars that were actually fun to drive. Have you?
4. You're not a real enthusiast.
5. I do like that generation 3 series though.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 16, 2016, 09:15:50 AM
I just want to point out that I had complaints about them on day 1. :praise:
But what about that Yugo you drive that I saw broken down at an Autozone in the ghetto? :devil:
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2016, 09:16:55 AM
1. I've actually driven both of them. Have you?
2. The 350Z is not a sports car. It's a GT--the fixed roof and high weight (more than my old Jetta) more than prove that.
3. I've owned two actual sports cars that were actually fun to drive. Have you?
4. You're not a real enthusiast.
I've driven in a Jetta, that was enough for me. It's not remarkable by ANY measure.
It's a sports car. Plenty of cars carry more weight than your Jetta, all of them are better.
You had a boxster and a Z4 - I had 2 Z3s and 2 E90s. All of them were "fun to drive" in their own ways.
You don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Go back to fawning over 15 different Golf Variants.
Quote from: Char on July 16, 2016, 08:33:57 AM
It could be Obama's 3rd term and I would still hate it.
I'm not a fan of hatchbacks, I'm not a fan of VW and I'm not a fan of FWD.
I'm sure it's objectively a good car, but there is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that it's not a steaming pile of shit, no matter what it does. CarSpin has effectively ruined me on liking the brand as a whole - people here are fawning over the dumbest shit I've seen.
"A LONG WHEELBASE GOLF? SIGN ME RIGHT THE FUCK UP"
"OMG A AWD GOLF- IT'S THE SECOND COMING"
"THE GOLF IS A HATCH, IT'S A GREAT PERFECT PACKAGE"
Like guys - shut the fuck up. It's a hopped up economy car in a ugly little package which until recently included a crap motor (timing belts? Carbon build up?) an AWD system that was essentially trash, and too high of a price that put it in range of REAL cars.
MY Build thread isn't about the Golf - it's fun to troll people who get too emotional over it, but I don't give a fuck about them. They literally have ZERO showing out on any motorsport, meaning it's good on paper and not actually driving.
2.0T hasn't had a timing belt since around 2008, unless they changed the design again.
Also, motorsport has nothing to do with street cars. That's the oldest lie in the automotive marketer's book. That's why we have supercars with automatic transmissions and everybody creams themselves over them.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 09:19:44 AM
But what about that Yugo you drive that I saw broken down at an Autozone in the ghetto? :devil:
400 hp Yugos are alright :thumbsup:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 16, 2016, 09:28:50 AM
400 hp Yugos are alright :thumbsup:
We should've had a drag race.
Quote from: Char on July 16, 2016, 09:24:01 AM
I've driven in a Jetta, that was enough for me. It's not remarkable by ANY measure.
It's a sports car. Plenty of cars carry more weight than your Jetta, all of them are better.
You had a boxster and a Z4 - I had 2 Z3s and 2 E90s. All of them were "fun to drive" in their own ways.
You don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Go back to fawning over 15 different Golf Variants.
You've been in a Jetta? I'm sure driving in one example of a car has a lot to do with actually driving a sporty edition of one. Very mature and well reasoned response.
It's not a sports car. It's a GT. E90s aren't sports cars either, while we're on the subject.
I had a Boxster
S. Didn't know you had Z3s. Why two? Did you think they'd fixed the rear suspension on the second one? They were nice to look at for their time, but boy did BMW cut costs when bringing that to market.
You're still not an enthusiast. You're just a close-minded kid who lacks the experience to look at things on a case by case basis because putting things in boxes is all your little brain can handle. If that weren't true, you'd be able to either realize that categorical definitions and simplistic "Four legs good, two legs bad" observations were bullshit or at least realize that your objections are irrational. Do you think a Grand Marquis is a better handling car than a Mini? It's okay to irrational likes and dislikes; but passing them off as unequivocal truths and getting pissy when people disagree with you is childish.
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 09:32:26 AM
We should've had a drag race.
Lol that would've been awesome
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2016, 09:25:42 AM
2.0T hasn't had a timing belt since around 2008, unless they changed the design again.
Also, motorsport has nothing to do with street cars. That's the oldest lie in the automotive marketer's book. That's why we have supercars with automatic transmissions and everybody creams themselves over them.
Motorsport = Autocross and eventually HPDE/Solo time. I'm not talking about actual wheel to wheel racing.
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2016, 09:32:56 AM
You've been in a Jetta? I'm sure driving in one example of a car has a lot to do with actually driving a sporty edition of one. Very mature and well reasoned response.
It's not a sports car. It's a GT. E90s aren't sports cars either, while we're on the subject.
I had a Boxster S. Didn't know you had Z3s. Why two? Did you think they'd fixed the rear suspension on the second one? They were nice to look at for their time, but boy did BMW cut costs when bringing that to market.
You're still not an enthusiast. You're just a close-minded kid who lacks the experience to look at things on a case by case basis because putting things in boxes is all your little brain can handle. If that weren't true, you'd be able to either realize that categorical definitions and simplistic "Four legs good, two legs bad" observations were bullshit or at least realize that your objections are irrational. Do you think a Grand Marquis is a better handling car than a Mini? It's okay to irrational likes and dislikes; but passing them off as unequivocal truths and getting pissy when people disagree with you is childish.
Nothing about the Jetta appeals to me, there is literally no reason for me to drive one for leisure. It's a feminine FWD family sedan with a lackluster engine in pretty much all it's forms. Why would I buy one over a Accord V6 or Accord sport 4cyl - or even a Civic Si Sedan?
While we are on the subject, why does a car like the Jetta exist? It competes with both the Civic and the Accord and does nothing better than either one - seriously?
Anyhow, The Z3s were fun for what they where, but being half E30/E36, the whole car was a compromise - pretty much every car is, the key is to know what you were compromising on.
When I clearly have options (like when I was buying a car 8 months ago) I didn't want FWD. Yes there are good FWD cars, no one is disputing that - but why would I SETTLE for FWD when I can have a superior rearwheel drive. You're example of a Grand Marquis and a Mini aren't valid because they cars share nothing besides the fact they are both cars.
We're specifically speaking of cars within the same price range and are similar in size, meaning the biggest distinction is drivetrain. I'm not going to pick a BAD RWD car over a good FWD car - but I'm also not going to pay good money for a dynamically flawed car when there are substanitally better options.
And that's where we differ.
I want to buy the best car I can for X amount of money.
You want a VW.
I want a car that has a lot of great attributes
You want a VW.
If you were attempting to be as objective as you're trying to portray, you would have long since admitted that I have a valid point. No car enthusiast would be lining up to buy a fucking Jetta or GTI over a BMW 2 series...unless they were as clueless as you.
Okie dokie. Well, since trying to engage you like an adult didn't work, I'll just leave you to your weird obsession with me and your fantasy world. You don't know what you're talking about and that'll never change, so there's really no point.
Quote from: Raza on July 16, 2016, 10:00:53 AM
Okie dokie. Well, since trying to engage you like an adult didn't work, I'll just leave you to your weird obsession with me and your fantasy world. You don't know what you're talking about and that'll never change, so there's really no point.
Trust me kiddo, the feeling is mutual.
This is weird
Quote from: 2o6 on July 16, 2016, 10:06:04 AM
This is weird
How?
QuoteYou're still not an enthusiast. You're just a close-minded kid who lacks the experience to look at things on a case by case basis because putting things in boxes is all your little brain can handle.
Yeah, totally trying to engage me in a civil adult like conversation. When I responded in kind, he got butthurt and walked away with his tail between his legs.
This thread refuses to die........... :facepalm:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 16, 2016, 10:12:08 AM
This thread refuses to die........... :facepalm:
You don't have to read it.
Quote from: Char on July 16, 2016, 10:09:57 AM
How?
Yeah, totally trying to engage me in a civil adult like conversation. When I responded in kind, he got butthurt and walked away with his tail between his legs.
We can keep going in circles and trading insults, if you'd prefer that. I just don't see the point. But if you want, we can keep doing it. I'm sure one of us will show the other the light any day now.
You're right though, I wasn't nice in that paragraph. The "little brain" jab was unnecessary. I stand by everything else. I also think your geographical location colors what you think of other cars, since you don't have seasons and possibly have never seen dozens of RWD cars on the side of the road or in ditches after a snowfall. Perhaps then the realities of enthusiast cars that aren't RWD may dawn on you. Of course, if you already can't appreciate light, agile, and immediate street cars, then perhaps it won't.
Quote from: Char on July 16, 2016, 10:12:53 AM
You don't have to read it.
I haven't read it for months but it keeps popping up in my effing replies! :banghead:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 16, 2016, 10:20:10 AM
I haven't read it for months but it keeps popping up in my effing replies! :banghead:
I'm only posting this so it pops up again :devil:
Bro I have no problem with your build and get exactly why you bought the E92. If not for my high annual mileage, lack of desire to gamble with reliability, and quite frankly, YOU, I probably would have bought an E90 sedan instead of the Civic.
My gripe is 100% with your attitude and contradictions, period. You clearly want people to engage with you and talk cars with you in a meaningful way, but then you go out of your way to talk shit about anything and anyone who doesn't see things your way. I'm just throwing back what you put out.
As for me and wanting a sports car, not sure you remember but I had one for about 2 years. Decided that with the Z at least it wasn't for me. Again, saving like $50 a week on gas is nice and adds up quickly; I can stomach totaling the bike on track; my daily driver, not so much. So for me it was pointless to have a sports car that was quite frankly a PITA to live with on a daily basis sometimes if I wasn't getting everything out of it. That's what men do... we think we want something; we try it; if we like it we stick with it; if we don't we toss it and are thankful for the experience. I thought I wanted a sports car, which is why I bought one... turns out either I was wrong or I bought the wrong sports car. Nothing ventured, nothing gained :huh:
And like I said before, there's a difference between enthusiasts and people who just like cars... and I think a big part of that is the attitude. I'm happy to NOT be an enthusiast. I like cars, a lot. As I'm typing this I'm waiting for the paint on a redo of my headlights to dry. The demon Civic is up on jackstands. You see what I've done to my car. But the shit doesn't define who I am. It's just a car. I don't look at people as unworthy or whatever because they don't care about cars or like different shit than I do. I DO look at people in a funny light if they are assholes, ESPECIALLY if they use things I'm into to do so.
So don't cry to me about wanting to be understood when you go out of your way to misunderstand why someone might like different things than you do. The shit is juvenile and annoying.
And low key I am looking forward to see what you do with your build.
Did this just turn into an intervention?
I sense a group hug coming up at the end of all this.
Nah, all you have to do is type two magic consecutive letters and he'll lose his crap again...
(http://i48.tinypic.com/el642g.png)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/a27ij4.png)
??? Thoughts on the spoiler? The rear seems too dead without it.
Yes but no to the pinstripe, and maybe yes to body color.
Even I had a VW...LOL, thread is hilarious. Here's my old car. Had a 55 HP Mexico built 1600 dual port engine. Sold easy for $5k- should have asked more.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0wgc6Lx0h0EubTiLcvHFS79hSNdvWAGhVdxZ4ASUnKe5pqTv6akCfrhWHLjiiYN7Hhu19sbLpZk3TTavBDIbmfX8KCNzOIKPszmDUHuAQO7g3hHEeLA0xgf3bC1R9xKZ5hYs-2RRVLdY7JZ6eQIAk-PZJq-Yqkwzby3wRZI1PtTNISlPiAd4SBWF3yx_lRLrCCaurJLKpLY1bkVMhJvDQPI18VCf3opgqYhB_XRUZV6i24x9DfuHGDtcR9GIM7V_Gi-3IZehCujF12G9TP0sm8WVj6NKdbKG5oykWkn6RD-3HcQtvLP-l14Xp5I834YodV3JddwTJ2sGO__oaYUrXXogTnPqK2QRxhhWE5oMGaXXo3bgXqXSydDhbfMgBUoeWLvw9RTVco7EQ7mAWN01R6Z4tjwYTTYR3L73SBWVzz2_gkD-vfS4CpKqIKrDB0NnlC1tcvXucr-EMPMiWGnZQYyvGERw_RX7UIn3qEcMvtfv6A2YuUuJlJpQ80ezOTzaBCyhW8s4mqkJ4grsRVfHvmFZpmm2WrpPPYnwrZ7fE3EZ3TmtbA8nIFcEeWvqyRJimhSHfTJI-nsRZ2XQhLUeQyj73VYFX10=w1191-h893-no)
Quote from: 68_427 on July 17, 2016, 11:52:28 AM
Yes but no to the pinstripe, and maybe yes to body color.
:hesaid:
How do you feel about the CSL trunk? I know there was no E9x CSL but I like that look more.
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=702698&stc=1&d=1338940894)
I agree with Sporty... CSL trunk looks better.
I kinda prefer the black trunk spoiler. At least on a white.
I did consider it, but the cost (including paint) and the risk of improper fit are making me nervous.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zwsAAOSwstxVgMxl/s-l300.jpg)
(http://www.jl-motoring.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BMTS9214-2.jpg)
The CSL trunk is awesome though, but I think this look pretty tasteful.
I think that lip spoiler looks better in body color.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 17, 2016, 01:17:09 PM
I think that lip spoiler looks better in body color.
Really? The red pin stripe I agree, but body color? No contrast at all?
The reason why I wanted it black is because I had only one other appearance mod planned:
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=676165&stc=1&d=1334550331)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=676166&stc=1&d=1334550331)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=609174&stc=1&d=1321568284)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=609185&stc=1&d=1321568535)
It kind of looks unfinished to me if you leave it black. I can see leaving the front lip black (though I'd paint that too) but I think the trunk lip would look better painted.
I kinda like it black
It's a tough call. The coupe has no discerning features between the wheels and below the windows, so there's a lot of blank acreage. And there's no lip kit or door trim I'm seeing that can break it up. Best bet might be black door handles/mirrors and worst comes to worst some kind of easily removable side decal.
If it were Forza, I'd be tempted to go black. But for real life, I think body color would be best.
Black over white is a nice contrast.
It's a tough call, for sure.
I know of a lot of builds that were pretty much shelved because spoiler color is one of the most difficult decisions to make.
It's one of those decisions you'll have to carry for the rest of your life.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 17, 2016, 08:54:55 PM
It's a tough call, for sure.
I know of a lot of builds that were pretty much shelved because spoiler color is one of the most difficult decisions to make.
It's one of those decisions you'll have to carry for the rest of your life.
:lol: !
FWIW my rear spoiler is black :lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 17, 2016, 08:54:55 PM
It's a tough call, for sure.
I know of a lot of builds that were pretty much shelved because spoiler color is one of the most difficult decisions to make.
It's one of those decisions you'll have to carry for the rest of your life.
Yeah, I may need to hang my hat up over this one.
I like the contrasting color idea but has to match either wheels or be a color which says "yes, I meant to finish with this color"...
Quote from: Char on July 18, 2016, 12:16:43 AM
Yeah, I may need to hang my hat up over this one.
Might as well sell the car.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on July 18, 2016, 11:39:43 AM
Might as well sell the car.
Burn it! Save others from this dilemma!
So I don't know if I updated in a while, but....
I have a 3 stage intake manifold waiting on install..and I'm wondering if (when I add headers) I'm going to run a full blow ALFA N tune.
I also have to replace the Valvetronic sensor, which is hopefully going on this weekend when the IM gets changed over.
M3 Strut brace - no realy performance benefits here, but it was a good price so I grabbed it - it allows access to the shock tower covering for when I upgrade to camber plates.
Looking for a front sway bar and some more track time after this.
Quote from: Char on August 15, 2016, 02:12:11 PM
So I don't know if I updated in a while, but....
I have a 3 stage intake manifold waiting on install..and I'm wondering if (when I add headers) I'm going to run a full blow ALFA N tune.
I also have to replace the Valvetronic sensor, which is hopefully going on this weekend when the IM gets changed over.
M3 Strut brace - no realy performance benefits here, but it was a good price so I grabbed it - it allows access to the shock tower covering for when I upgrade to camber plates.
Looking for a front sway bar and some more track time after this.
Nice. How have you been doing on track? Road or autocross?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 15, 2016, 03:28:54 PM
Nice. How have you been doing on track? Road or autocross?
No AutoX during July August, likely due to heat, and Sebring is currently having a track day, but for experienced drivers only. My season will start in September probably.
I"m having trouble posting - anyone else?
Guess that's what I get for trying to attach photos:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/50163a.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2py8evm.jpg)
Valvetronic sensor replaced and intake manifold swapped.
Id totally get those wheels if they came in a width+offset that would fit
New cams too, right? I mean, they're right there...
Who did the work? It doesn't look easy.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 22, 2016, 06:20:37 PM
New cams too, right? I mean, they're right there...
They dont make them I don't think
What I want to see is someone put N52 cams in an N54/N55. No more top end fall off
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2016, 07:54:26 PM
They dont make them I don't think
What I want to see is someone put N52 cams in an N54/N55. No more top end fall off
Cam profile isn't the reason a turbocharged engines fall off up top.
And the N55 uses Valvetronic, so it already has the same infinitely variable valve lift that the N52 has. Also has Double VANOS cam phasing. An N52 cam isn't going to change much.
Not sure an N52 cam would do much in an N54 since the latter doesn't have Valvetronic while the former does.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 22, 2016, 05:02:07 PM
Id totally get those wheels if they came in a width+offset that would fit
17X9 ET30 16.77lbs.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 22, 2016, 06:20:37 PM
New cams too, right? I mean, they're right there...
I wish, the only options are Shrick (which no one has done...nor are they sure they exist) and regrinds.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 22, 2016, 06:23:39 PM
Who did the work? It doesn't look easy.
I had a friend (987 S behind my car) help me out, he did a lot of the more difficult stuff, but it's not a hard job. Just tedious.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2016, 07:54:26 PM
They dont make them I don't think
What I want to see is someone put N52 cams in an N54/N55. No more top end fall off
Quote from: MX793 on August 22, 2016, 08:09:34 PM
Cam profile isn't the reason a turbocharged engines fall off up top.
And the N55 uses Valvetronic, so it already has the same infinitely variable valve lift that the N52 has. Also has Double VANOS cam phasing. An N52 cam isn't going to change much.
Not sure an N52 cam would do much in an N54 since the latter doesn't have Valvetronic while the former does.
Haven't done a part comparison on the N52 and N55 but I imagine the profiles are going to be slightly different, but maximum lift is the same. The problem with the (especially) N54 and N55 is the head just doesn't flow as well and the smaller turbos
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1290576&page=5
^ You can see a comparison between the two heads: N52's have larger intake and exhaust valves and larger intake and exhaust ports.
Quote from: Char on August 23, 2016, 12:02:22 AM
17X9 ET30 16.77lbs.
I wish, the only options are Shrick (which no one has done...nor are they sure they exist) and regrinds.
I had a friend (987 S behind my car) help me out, he did a lot of the more difficult stuff, but it's not a hard job. Just tedious.
Haven't done a part comparison on the N52 and N55 but I imagine the profiles are going to be slightly different, but maximum lift is the same. The problem with the (especially) N54 and N55 is the head just doesn't flow as well and the smaller turbos
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1290576&page=5
^ You can see a comparison between the two heads: N52's have larger intake and exhaust valves and larger intake and exhaust ports.
Max for my car would be something like 8" wide with a 45 offset, but since I'd need adapters since they don't make 5x100 I'm SOL
Quote from: 68_427 on August 23, 2016, 12:05:59 AM
Max for my car would be something like 8" wide with a 45 offset, but since I'd need adapters since they don't make 5x100 I'm SOL
Don't be a quitter. Camber fixes most everything.
Quote from: Char on August 23, 2016, 12:17:59 AM
Don't be a quitter. Camber fixes most everything.
I'm already at 2* all around. I'm not gonna go much more than that
Quote from: 68_427 on August 23, 2016, 12:21:17 AM
I'm already at 2* all around. I'm not gonna go much more than that
With toe (front) set to 0, you can go higher without any worry of adverse tire wear.
Quote from: MX793 on August 22, 2016, 08:09:34 PM
Cam profile isn't the reason a turbocharged engines fall off up top.
And the N55 uses Valvetronic, so it already has the same infinitely variable valve lift that the N52 has. Also has Double VANOS cam phasing. An N52 cam isn't going to change much.
Not sure an N52 cam would do much in an N54 since the latter doesn't have Valvetronic while the former does.
Engines are air pumps, turbos or not... cams help.
Stock N54/N55s don't boost very hard (~10psi?) so I don't think compressor inefficiency is what chokes it at the top. We know the N55 head is inferior in flow to the N52 as well. I think it could work.
Hell.... *dons flame suit* my car with an appropriately sized turbo and similar amounts of boost makes similar peak power (though obviously less average power and peak torque):
(http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/r18-faq/full-race_r18_civic_power_tq1.jpg)
That all comes down to the better flowing head IMO.
And yes with zero toe camber is a free variable within reason. I am running -1.5-2 all around. Toe is the killer.
Will a freer flowing head get you more power with a turbo? Yes, generally. Will it materially change the shape of the power/torque curves such that the motor doesn't fall off at 5000 RPM, or wherever? No. The reason the power falls off at the higher RPMs has to do with either with the boost control map (how much boost the waste gate bleeds off at higher RPM) or the limits of the turbocharger itself (e.g. compressor design).
All things equal, more aggressive cams = power band shape changes biasing to the top end. Being that the stock turbos in these things can make stock boost all the way to redline I don't think the turbos are choking anything out.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 23, 2016, 09:46:58 AM
All things equal, more aggressive cams = power band shape changes biasing to the top end. Being that the stock turbos in these things can make stock boost all the way to redline I don't think the turbos are choking anything out.
What makes you think the stock turbos can maintain boost pressure up to redline?
And if they can, then the boost control system is cutting the boost at higher RPM, so it's only a matter of reflashing to get the power to carry to redline.
The power falls on its face because the boost is going away at higher rpm. This is either because the boost control is bleeding more air off via the waste gate or because the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air from the motor.
Quote from: MX793 on August 23, 2016, 10:35:23 AM
What makes you think the stock turbos can maintain boost pressure up to redline?
And if they can, then the boost control system is cutting the boost at higher RPM, so it's only a matter of reflashing to get the power to carry to redline.
The power falls on its face because the boost is going away at higher rpm. This is either because the boost control is bleeding more air off via the waste gate or because the compressor can't keep up with the demand for air from the motor.
Here is the stock boost curve for the N54
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=967&pictureid=5480)
Compare that with the torque curve:
(http://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW-335i-335is-dyno-test-N54-vs-N55-torque-750x500.jpg)
If it were just a matter of boost/turbo efficiency the torque curve would not start falling off as the boost is hitting its peak. The turbos have to add boost to maintain a flat torque curve as the RPMs increase. To me that speaks to a breathing problem/choked up cam timing.
Why do turbos have to add boost to maintain a flat torque curve as RPM increases?
That's not a stock boost map. Dude had an aftermarket downpipe.
Picked up a set of rebuilt PSS9 Bilstein coilovers, and I'm going to swap out the springs to a linear spring rate + camber plate and sway bar in the next few week here.
I also got in my file for the intake manifold that I put on, so that needs to be installed.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/23lb30l.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2n096op.jpg)
Genji wallpaper? What system are you playing on?
Quote from: MrH on August 28, 2016, 08:21:44 AM
Genji wallpaper? What system are you playing on?
PS4, the only console that matters hahaha. Samu-R-I is my tag, but I'm not that great...yet.
Owwww shiiiiiit. Bout to beat on Char :lol:
I'm getting a ps4 as well but idk wtf gaingly is
Quote from: 68_427 on August 28, 2016, 11:50:15 AM
I'm getting a ps4 as well but idk wtf gaingly is
Just buy overwatch. Only game you need
But I have gran Turismo on ore order so I can put a bigger bar on the rear
Zarya, Genji, Mei. Dat high skill cap lyfe.
Quote from: Laconian on August 28, 2016, 10:56:36 PM
Zarya, Genji, Mei. Dat high skill cap lyfe.
It's all about Genji...trying to get good with someone else, but he just suits my style more.
Also, my review on the software upgrade:
Tune is installed and the car feels fantastic, which is saying a lot considering the car already had a tune (stage 1, for single stage manifold) on it before.
I originally had the single stage manifold tune (Stage 1) which increased power everywhere, including the top of the RPM range. Unfortunately, the eccentric shaft failed on my car around the same time as the install (and I did know it was a problem beforehand) so I barely got to experience it in all of it's glory.
I recently repaired the eccentric shaft sensor, and swapped the intake manifold with a 3 stage manifold. Immediately noticeable is the increase in torque in the lower RPM ranage, but because I was running the wrong tune - there was a HUGE dip in the middle of the band and a fall off in power near redline.
I'm happy to say that's all in the past now - more power everywhere, or at least more linear power. No drop in the middle of the band with the big DISA transition and no fall off in power at the top of the rev range. It even seems to have gotten quicker from when I first installed the tune. I'll be resetting adaptations and giving it another shakedown, but right now, no complaints.
So, basically, you got vtec.....yo.
Quote from: Laconian on August 28, 2016, 10:56:36 PM
Zarya, Genji, Mei. Dat high skill cap lyfe.
I had to look that up to see what that means. Mei is not a high skill cap. Zarya is just terrible all around :lol:
Can we just turn this into an Overwatch thread?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on August 29, 2016, 01:46:57 PM
So, basically, you got vtec.....yo.
(http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/vtech-mobigo-2-touch-learning-system_4.jpg)
buttmeter is strong with this one
I bought headers.
Quote from: Char on September 24, 2016, 03:53:33 PM
I bought headers.
Do you mean you upgraded to the Nautica headers? The Villager came from the factory with long tube 4-3-2-1 headers. The Nautica Edition used the same headers, but with a special marine grade yellow chrome finish with a pattern of embossed Nautica logos.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 24, 2016, 07:11:06 PM
Do you mean you upgraded to the Nautica headers? The Villager came from the factory with long tube 4-3-2-1 headers. The Nautica Edition used the same headers, but with a special marine grade yellow chrome finish with a pattern of embossed Nautica logos.
:golfclap:
The car has H&R sport Springs with Stock Sport package dampers...as I rack up the miles, the car isn't feeling as planted as before. I have a set of B16 PSS9s I was going to have re-valved for linear springs, but Bilstein isn't really helping me out (frozen adjuster, rear is missing an adjuster), plus the cost is $200 per shock, plus $450 for the linear springs and another $450 for camber plates.
Any suggestions? Might just sell it and get something like BC/Fortune Auto...
Need to flush the brakes lines, clean/swap or replace the vanos solenoids, and flush the cooling system and maintenance should be golden. Headers need to be put on, but I'm worried about the exhaust...
Oh, the PSS9s are used?
I still think BC's on a DD/mildly tracked car is still more than enough suspension.
Quote from: MrH on October 18, 2016, 11:52:21 AM
Oh, the PSS9s are used?
Yeap. They popped up while I was looking for a swapbar, so I grabbed them. Expensive inpulse buy - but one of the front adjusters doesn't turn, and both don't have markings of what they are actually adjusting. There rear has just one (with markings) but the other doesn't, which the seller did disclose - he just swapped them between the two. I was going to send them out for a revalve/build but I'm wondering if any of these issues would even be corrected. I might just sell them for what I paid.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 18, 2016, 11:55:58 AM
I still think BC's on a DD/mildly tracked car is still more than enough suspension.
The only reason I was set on Bilstein was the reported longevity of the shocks, requiring less frequent rebuilds compared to other shock brands.
Just have Bilstein do a standard rebuild then. They should be able to fix the stuck adjuster.
I wouldn't worry about the markings. You can just click them and count how many clicks it is. There should be 9 indentations.
Quote from: MrH on October 18, 2016, 12:03:20 PM
Just have Bilstein do a standard rebuild then. They should be able to fix the stuck adjuster.
I wouldn't worry about the markings. You can just click them and count how many clicks it is. There should be 9 indentations.
They are supposed to click? One of them moves cleanly through the range with nothing that grabs...same with the rear. I'll try calling today.
They should definitely click. A smooth range would suck.
Yeah, they're supposed to. My PSS10s clicked, and all the double adjustable shocks I worked with do too.
How old/how many miles are on this set?
Check the adjuster yourself. You can see how it looks here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNGd4eBoKtk
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 18, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
They should definitely click. A smooth range would suck.
Hmm....
The click vs no click is just a function of how you assemble the top end on the pss9s... I remember playing with that when I installed mine - the click is just a little ball bearing that flops into dimples on the adjuster, if it's not tight enough it doesn't click
Quote from: r0tor on October 18, 2016, 05:31:39 PM
The click vs no click is just a function of how you assemble the top end on the pss9s... I remember playing with that when I installed mine - the click is just a little ball bearing that flops into dimples on the adjuster, if it's not tight enough it doesn't click
The adjusters on the E90 are under the strut itself.
Headers installed, midsection installed and I finally have my stage 3 AFLA N tune here, about to be installed. Intake is in the mail, should be here Wednesday - and then I hit the dyno.
:popcorn:
ALFA N tune installed, uses a MAP sensor, and I had to order a European IAT sensor (to replace the MAF) but I had to get in from overseas, the part isn't available in the US.
The tune is pretty nice, more torque and tbe redline is bumped to 7500 which is really awesome. However, my idle bounces and I have a CEL...so that will have to be fixed.
Going to dyno it Thursday and take it to the track that evening if I can.
No dyno yet, but I did take it to the track.
Previous best MPH was 93.X (almost 94mph)
Current best MPH is 98.89
Almost there...
Nice improvement there
Thank you!
Ultimate goal is 101+mph - realistic goal is 99-100mph.
I've got some ideas, including switching out the stock intake (with the crusty 4)K + unchanged paper filter) so we'll see.
Got a new dyno, 247/217 SAE, the car had E85 in it, but it caused the car to run rich...so update the tune file, run 9n 93 and redyno.
You're making me wanna save up and tear down the EG33 and order cams and shit. STAHP
Quote from: 68_427 on December 04, 2016, 10:38:08 PM
You're making me wanna save up and tear down the EG33 and order cams and shit. STAHP
I am having hardware issues, but the car can (and will) actually do more power - it's fun, you should try it.
Quote from: Char on December 05, 2016, 07:55:54 PM
I am having hardware issues, but the car can (and will) actually do more power - it's fun, you should try it.
Maybe after a year or two. They don't even make head bolts for that engine anymore so I'm stuck with pricey ARP hardware. A rebuild with cams and such would be in the $2K range. The stock JDM engines are rated at 240hp, and my car isn't that heavy (Edmunds says under 3200lbs). Combined with 4.44 axle ratios it should be pretty energetic.
Car is still having an intake issue I can't pin down - but it's driving better and it's pretty quick and torquey. Looking to do suspension and brakes next.
I ran E85 in the car once, and I think it's what lead to my issues.
Fuel pump is probably going, vanos solenoid needs to be cleaned, and I broke a part on the valve cover and it needs to be replaced.
Shit.
But, after this, it should purr - hopefully 100mph+traps and uber reliable. I want to hit Sebring this year.
Also planning on a CO system, my suspension is needing help.
(http://i.imgur.com/QwOgJkq.png)
I need that dog.
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1548234&stc=1&d=1482962727)
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1548256&stc=1&d=1482962836)
Graph is in STD instead of SAE like I normally use, and you'll notice in the first picture the car is running really rich. I was an idiot, and thought I could cool the intake charge by having some E85 in there - since the car targets Lambda and not AFR - that's the result.
Now that I have all the issues on the car sorted (mostly, clutch was defective, will be replacing it again) I'll go back and get a proper dyno.
Also, you can thank Mr.H42 for bringing me back! :clap: :cheers:
Quote from: Char on April 08, 2017, 09:31:57 AM
Also, you can thank Mr.H42 for bringing me back! :clap: :cheers:
:cheers:
GREAT ANOTHER PERSON TO CLOG THE VIDEO GAME THREAD WITH THAT PORN CARTOON FETISH GAME
I'm going to take a break from Engine mods (the car makes good power, but could be more civil) but I have a leak on the Valvecover again. Looks like it wasn't seated right when it was opened last time and it's leaking oil on the headers, and it smells terrible. So if I have to jump back in there, I figuremight as well install new valvetronic lifters.
Basically no one makes cams for the valvetronic motors, and stock lift is limited to a measly 9.9mm (9.7mm actual, probably) of lift. Well one of the guys on the forum modified the rocker for the valvetronic cam to add more lift...like .5mm more:
2006 Manual 330i N52 with 3 stage intake
Mods:
BMW performance intake
BMW performance Exhaust
BPC Tune
Red: Before tune adjustment after installing the mod
Blue: Tune adjustments to only the valvetronic maps
(http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1616419&stc=1&d=1493757070)
(Those are actually my rockers I bought and gave to them to test) Pretty solid gains I'd say. The guy came back with a new set of rocker, modified further to increase the lift to almost .9 - 1mm, so we'll see what they do.
I'm actually looking at a new set of tires, refresh the brakes (SS lines, new fluid, pads and backing plates) and looking into different suspension options.
Ever since I got my car back for the clutch replacement and valve cover replacement, I've noticed that my car was leaking oil. The VC is new, the gasket/etc are new, so what could it be? I assumed it was just a result of the valve cover being pinched in the rear and causing oil to leak out - it happens all the time. I decided it was a good opportunity to do a modified Valvetronic support as well
(https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/884934_x800.jpg)
(https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/543549_x800.jpg)
I did this mod, and went with a 1mm support - which is good and bad.
The bad:
Completely untested (well, they did test it on a turbocharged N52 - crazy gains) but in the long term, any potential for increased wear or failure?
Completely useless without a tune (and any tune makes me a beta tester)
The Good:
-If tuned, works well (like stock)
-Power
Got everything buttoned up, and the car drove and acts like normal. As expected, because the car doesn't know that the lift has been increased, it functions basically the same -
(http://www.325ix.com/pics/2014/S54ix/MSV70/Map%20Comparison/KL_HUBEX.png)
(http://www.325ix.com/pics/2014/S54ix/MSV70/Map%20Comparison/KL_HUBEX2.png)
These are the valvetronic lift tables, showing you the amount of lift at different points for the eccentric cam location. In theory, the car can make 9.9mm of lift stock. However, they never hit that point, and hit a stopping point at 9.7mm. Another thing you'll note is most of the resolution is at the lower lift tables, likely because the cam/valves act like a throttlebody.
From my friend Chris
QuoteThe actual safe maximum is about ~178 degrees - so it looks like with the modified rocker ratio, 10.5mm of lift [on the .5mm supports] should be possible even with a stock cam.
Notice most of the resolution in the curve is at the low end - I think that's the critical part to get correct, as that will affect most of the low load/drivability areas. Once you get to the end of the curve, the valves are mostly open and it probably matters less.
Here is a little more detailed information on it, if you care to read (based on the .5mm version) -
QuoteSo I modified a piece of the Valvetronic valve train and tried it on the N52 test engine I have on the stand.
I am able to measure Eccentric cam angle position and actual valve lift.
So at maximum intake cam lift, I measured and plotted out the stock Eccentric cam position vs valve lift.
Due to the not running engine, the hydraulic lifters were bled down which lost about 1mm of valve lift. I was able to plot from 0* Ecc Cam position to 174* position and got valve lift numbers from 0 to 8.7mm.
Plots below- ADD 1mm to value to get true engine running lifter pumped up valve lift.
Then using the modified part, I remeasured everything and got minimal change, 0.2mm, from Ecc Cam 50* to 140* and above 140* picked up 0.5mm of valve lift.
So it looks like with the modified part, there is minimal valve lift change from 0-140* Ecc Cam position and 0.5mm more intake valve lift between 140-174* Ecc Cam position which corresponds to about 80% to WOT position.
100* Ecc Cam position - stock 5.029mm valve lift - modified 5.156mm valve lift
110* Ecc Cam position - stock 5.663mm valve lift - modified 5.817mm valve lift
120* Ecc Cam position - stock 6.172mm valve lift - modified 6.426mm valve lift
130* Ecc Cam position - stock 6.655mm valve lift - modified 6.910mm valve lift
140* Ecc Cam position - stock 7.122mm valve lift - modified 7.366mm valve lift
150* Ecc Cam position - stock 7.569mm valve lift - modified 8.103mm valve lift
160* Ecc Cam position - stock 8.103mm valve lift - modified 8.611mm valve lift
170* Ecc Cam position - stock 8.560mm valve lift - modified 9.093mm valve lift
174* Ecc Cam position - stock 8.712mm valve lift - modified 9.347mm valve lift
Anyhow, the supports are in and I'm testing a few different tunes out - the WOT maps are pretty much the same, so we are working on part throttle driveability. The oil leak is still there, and it was discovered to be a result of a cracked valve cover - I've order a new one, and will return the defective one (OEM at that!) for a full refund. It's just not a fun job.
As far as power - it's definitely noticeable, and I assume that it will get better when things get sorted. It feels like a solid 15whp at the high end, and about 10wtq bump in torque at the low end.
Your butt cheek calibration is amazing.
Quote from: MrH on August 07, 2017, 09:19:20 AM
Your butt cheek calibration is amazing.
I've been pretty spot on with my estimates, dyno confirmed.
If you had an EV, you'd save yourself the whole oil leak headache. Just sayin'
Quote from: mzziaz on August 07, 2017, 09:50:25 AM
If you had an EV, you'd save yourself the whole oil leak headache. Just sayin'
:lol:
That was really good :lol:
Quote from: mzziaz on August 07, 2017, 09:50:25 AM
If you had an EV, you'd save yourself the whole oil leak headache. Just sayin'
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-earliest-tesla-drive-trains-to-fail-in-60000-miles-owner-data-suggests
I'm so confused with all those cam thingies
Quote from: r0tor on August 07, 2017, 12:09:40 PM
I'm so confused with all those cam thingies
It's analogous to using higher ratio rocker arms in a pooprod motor - in theory it gives the cam more leverage on the valve = more lift at the valve per unit of cam lift. At least with pooprod motors, it's not a perfect solution as the higher ratio can affect valvetrain geometry such that the valve doesn't see the full effect of the leverage (and if it's bad it can cause mechanical problems). Either way, without also modifying other cam characteristics (overlap, duration, etc.) simply increasing lift is pretty much a pig in a poke.
aw come on- everybody knows that fancy words make things faster! :mrcool:
Quote from: GoCougs on August 07, 2017, 12:26:54 PM
It's analogous to using higher ratio rocker arms in a pooprod motor - in theory it gives the cam more leverage on the valve = more lift at the valve per unit of cam lift. At least with pooprod motors, it's not a perfect solution as the higher ratio can affect valvetrain geometry such that the valve doesn't see the full effect of the leverage (and if it's bad it can cause mechanical problems). Either way, without also modifying other cam characteristics (overlap, duration, etc.) simply increasing lift is pretty much a pig in a poke.
... that comment went completely over your head...
...good grief...
Quote from: r0tor on August 07, 2017, 02:28:29 PM
... that comment went completely over your head...
...good grief...
There is some measure of truth in all jest ;).