http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/autos/epa-cheating-vw/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom (http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/autos/epa-cheating-vw/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom)
Quote"The effectiveness of these vehicles' pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations," said the Environmental Protection Agency's notice to the company. "This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times the standard."
Glad I don't own one of these. :lol:
What??? Automakers game the tests? Shocking.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 18, 2015, 12:47:04 PM
What??? Automakers game the tests? Shocking.
And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 18, 2015, 12:57:20 PM
And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.
All automakers are gaming all tests, so if everyone "loses" does anyone really lose?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 18, 2015, 01:08:28 PM
All automakers are gaming all tests, so if everyone "loses" does anyone really lose?
There is a difference between trying to optimise your products to get a higher score in a test, and what VW allegedly did. Programing your car to shift earlier, or giving vehicle tallllll gearing is fair game imo.
This is not good. Doesn't make me want a TDi any less though.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 18, 2015, 12:57:20 PM
And they were caught. And this will apparently cost them billions. They lost this game.
Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.
He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.
It took the EPA long enough to catch them.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.
He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.
Optimizing the car to perform under the conditions that it's tested in is one thing. Programming the car so that it actually functions differently only when it's being tested is way slimier.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.
He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.
EPA is an unchecked hegemony of the state, thusly, surely bet there is some language in some law that forbids such "fraud".
Quote from: Rockraven on September 18, 2015, 02:21:12 PM
This is not good. Doesn't make me want a TDi any less though.
You might want to get one before they get recalled and "fixed." If VW set their cars up to only engage emissions systems during testing there is a good chance that keeping the system active all of the time has negative effects on the way the car operates.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.
He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.
If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 18, 2015, 03:17:41 PM
EPA is an unchecked hegemony of the state, thusly, surely bet there is some language in some law that forbids such "fraud".
It may be hegemony, and there are surely 1000 ways the EPA can be improved, but in the end without regulation cars today would still pollute like in the 1950s.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 18, 2015, 03:07:43 PM
Whether it is cheating- in a legal sense- is a question.
He EPA said that hose vehicles must pass their tests. They did. That VW programmed the car to pass the test isn't surprising, and its probably not even fraud in the way he EPA would like to call it.
I'm not a lawyer.
But, I'd say VW certainly misrepresented it's product to it's customers. There are many, many car buyers who really do care if their car pollutes excessively and it could be argued they bought the VW product based in part on VW's representations to those customers that the cars met EPA requirements. The reasonable expectation would be the cars will continuously perform to EPA standards, not just while being tested. I'd honestly be surprised if we don't see a class action suit against VW come out of this.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 18, 2015, 03:47:10 PM
If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.
Actually, the "fix" is relatively straightforward, just not pleasant for VW or the vehicle owners. They recall the vehicles and reflash the engine controller to run in "EPA test mode" all the time. Yes, fuel economy will take a hit. VW will then probably have to issue new fuel economy estimates and will probably be forced to reimburse owners for the loss in fuel economy.
The question is whether or not the EPA test procedure prohibits programming the car to function differently when it detects that test equipment has been plugged into the ODB-II port. If there is indeed a loophole there, expect it to be promptly closed.
I hate diesel cars. noisy stinking, overcomplicated piles of ass. I realize Europeans love the damn things.
Over-complicated? Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.
The EPA is obviously the problem, here. They don't create realistic standards for diesel emissions. Then the govt expects CAFE to be met, as well.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 04:17:30 PM
Over-complicated? Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Otto_from_the_Simpsons.gif)
Yup, pretty simple.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 04:06:55 PM
Actually, the "fix" is relatively straightforward, just not pleasant for VW or the vehicle owners. They recall the vehicles and reflash the engine controller to run in "EPA test mode" all the time. Yes, fuel economy will take a hit. VW will then probably have to issue new fuel economy estimates and will probably be forced to reimburse owners for the loss in fuel economy.
The question is whether or not the EPA test procedure prohibits programming the car to function differently when it detects that test equipment has been plugged into the ODB-II port. If there is indeed a loophole there, expect it to be promptly closed.
If EPA test mode has lower emissions but lower fuel economy, it would explain why everyone's VW diesels beat the EPA ratings.
I own a TDI Beetle. I like the diesel clatter and it suits the old school vibe my car has. A lot of diesel cars require urea but the ones going to be recalled by VW do not. I think the new Passat diesel requires urea.
I wonder if the recall will involve adding urea or will that require engine redesign.
Either way, VW was apparently gaming the system bad and they'll pay for it.
Quote from: ifcar on September 18, 2015, 04:29:49 PM
If EPA test mode has lower emissions but lower fuel economy, it would explain why everyone's VW diesels beat the EPA ratings.
That's a good point. The fuel economy test may also be run with the same ECU mapping as the emissions test. In which case, VW may not be penalized for overstating EPA mileage estimates and their estimates may still be valid.
Quote from: veeman on September 18, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
I own a TDI Beetle. I like the diesel clatter and it suits the old school vibe my car has. A lot of diesel cars require urea but the ones going to be recalled by VW do not. I think the new Passat diesel requires urea.
I wonder if the recall will involve adding urea or will that require engine redesign.
Either way, VW was apparently gaming the system bad and they'll pay for it.
Adding urea injection to a car that doesn't already have it (and I don't believe the 2.0 TDI was designed to use it) will not be a simple back-fit. More likely, if forced to "fix it", they'll re-flash the ECU to use the same engine mapping as what was used to pass the emissions test in the first place. Much simpler solution to implement.
VW could partner with the ASPCA. Adopt a stray cat. Let it live in car. Inject its urine into the exhaust. Everybody wins.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 04:17:30 PM
Over-complicated? Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.
Modern turbo diesel cars and light trucks are heavily complicated and damn expensive to fix. All electronic controls/complicated, expensive emissions systems. Gas engines are way less complicated, even turbos and direct injection ones.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 04:41:52 PM
Adding urea injection to a car that doesn't already have it (and I don't believe the 2.0 TDI was designed to use it) will not be a simple back-fit. More likely, if forced to "fix it", they'll re-flash the ECU to use the same engine mapping as what was used to pass the emissions test in the first place. Much simpler solution to implement.
Thanks!! Then that would suck because a big psychological draw is not having to refuel as often. I get over 500 miles a tankful. If performance goes noticeably down that would not be acceptable either. Looks like I'll be joining a class action lawsuit if I don't get adequate renumeration.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on September 18, 2015, 03:17:16 PM
Optimizing the car to perform under the conditions that it's tested in is one thing. Programming the car so that it actually functions differently only when it's being tested is way slimier.
Slimy, yes. Illegal? Not quite cut and dried.
Quote from: CLKid on September 18, 2015, 03:57:56 PM
I'm not a lawyer.
But, I'd say VW certainly misrepresented it's product to it's customers. There are many, many car buyers who really do care if their car pollutes excessively and it could be argued they bought the VW product based in part on VW's representations to those customers that the cars met EPA requirements. The reasonable expectation would be the cars will continuously perform to EPA standards, not just while being tested. I'd honestly be surprised if we don't see a class action suit against VW come out of this.
I would see that as a case that needs to be presented by a group representing he owners; not by the EPA.
But, I'm no lawyer either.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 04:17:30 PM
Over-complicated? Definitely mechanically simpler than an Otto engine.
Not at all, if it's a N/A gasoline engine and about even if it's not.
http://youtu.be/-8zumymOPvI (http://youtu.be/-8zumymOPvI)
VW is like Tom Brady :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 18, 2015, 05:23:51 PM
Not at all, if it's a N/A gasoline engine and about even if it's not.
Diesels don't need to be turbocharged or supercharged (though they work much better if they are). No ignition. No throttle. They require no electricity at all to run. Fuel injection can be handled completely mechanically with the injectors driven off of the camshaft.
Quote from: MX793 on September 18, 2015, 06:29:54 PM
Diesels don't need to be turbocharged or supercharged (though they work much better if they are). No ignition. No throttle. They require no electricity at all to run. Fuel injection can be handled completely mechanically with the injectors driven off of the camshaft.
But of course no diesels are like that today - turbo + related stuff, more complicated fuel system (ultra high fuel pressure and more complicated/expensive injectors) and urea treatment.
Nether are gasoline engines...
Quote from: GoCougs on September 18, 2015, 08:58:00 PM
But of course no diesels are like that today - turbo + related stuff, more complicated fuel system (ultra high fuel pressure and more complicated/expensive injectors) and urea treatment.
Um, take a look at the typical diesel-powered refrigeration unit made by Carrier or similar. They're pretty dirt simple, N/A diesel engines. Kubota makes some for small tractors and generator sets and the like as well.
Doesn't look good. VW may take a huge hit from this.
It's crazy a car company would do this. The ramifications from getting caught are going to be pretty severe. Aside from a massive fine, there's surely going to be a class-action suit from the half-million owners.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 19, 2015, 11:57:29 AM
It's crazy a car company would do this. The ramifications from getting caught are going to be pretty severe. Aside from a massive fine, there's surely going to be a class-action suit from the half-million owners.
+1
I wonder if they're doing the same thing for Euro 6, as well
Quote from: 2o6 on September 19, 2015, 04:40:15 PM
I wonder if they're doing the same thing for Euro 6, as well
Do the latest Euro requirements have the same NOx limits as the US? In the past, the EPA has been more stringent about NOx and particulates than Euro regs, which focused more on carbon emissions.
Quote from: MX793 on September 19, 2015, 05:56:06 AM
Um, take a look at the typical diesel-powered refrigeration unit made by Carrier or similar. They're pretty dirt simple, N/A diesel engines. Kubota makes some for small tractors and generator sets and the like as well.
Not exactly daily drivers though, are they?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 19, 2015, 05:15:09 PM
Not exactly daily drivers though, are they?
Didn't specify "in cars or trucks". They don't really make any "simple" gas engines for cars anymore, either.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 19, 2015, 11:57:29 AM
It's crazy a car company would do this. The ramifications from getting caught are going to be pretty severe. Aside from a massive fine, there's surely going to be a class-action suit from the half-million owners.
You forget how deep German car owners Stockholm syndrome goes. This has not at all affected my desire for a new GTI
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 19, 2015, 06:56:02 PM
You forget how deep German car owners Stockholm syndrome goes. This has not at all affected my desire for a new GTI
The product is still great... the problem is crippling EPA regulations, and the damage they can do when you cross them.
I'd rather "crippling" regulations 99% of companies manage to meet without issue than the air quality of a third world country. That shit is going to be a big piece of china's downfall
Quote from: MX793 on September 19, 2015, 05:56:06 AM
Um, take a look at the typical diesel-powered refrigeration unit made by Carrier or similar. They're pretty dirt simple, N/A diesel engines. Kubota makes some for small tractors and generator sets and the like as well.
C'mon, man.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 19, 2015, 08:41:10 PM
I'd rather "crippling" regulations 99% of companies manage to meet without issue than the air quality of a third world country. That shit is going to be a big piece of china's downfall
It's worked wonders in Europe, esp. Paris:
(http://www.curbingcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/smog-Paris-Tour-Eiffel-before-and-after.jpeg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 19, 2015, 08:41:10 PM
I'd rather "crippling" regulations 99% of companies manage to meet without issue than the air quality of a third world country. That shit is going to be a big piece of china's downfall
Don't get me wrong... the EPA has mostly been a success and I'm thankful it exists. But WRT vehicle emissions I think they've gotten too restrictive and controlling.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 19, 2015, 10:08:01 PM
Don't get me wrong... the EPA has mostly been a success and I'm thankful it exists. But WRT vehicle emissions I think they've gotten too restrictive and controlling.
VW did not miss emissions by .02% they missed by 1000 -4000%, while at the same time they ran commercials like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVPyHrPZbVM&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVPyHrPZbVM&feature=youtu.be)
If in your commercial someone gets arrested for not composting, what is the punishment for cheating at emissions testing? :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 19, 2015, 09:33:25 PM
It's worked wonders in Europe, esp. Paris:
(http://www.curbingcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/smog-Paris-Tour-Eiffel-before-and-after.jpeg)
Lol right because every developed country with emissions standards has deadly smog
Come on bro even you aren't this obtuse
Quote from: GoCougs on September 19, 2015, 09:33:25 PM
It's worked wonders in Europe, esp. Paris:
(http://www.curbingcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/smog-Paris-Tour-Eiffel-before-and-after.jpeg)
Lol I've seen worse before and after pictures in villages with no cars, could just be all the old ladies out sweeping dust.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 19, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
VW did not miss emissions by .02% they missed by 1000 -4000%, while at the same time they ran commercials like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVPyHrPZbVM&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVPyHrPZbVM&feature=youtu.be)
If in your commercial someone gets arrested for not composting, what is the punishment for cheating at emissions testing? :lol:
I can't even... that sounds like an old Rambler running on leaded gas. You still can't see anything coming from a TDi tailpipe on the road. :huh:
Quote from: Rockraven on September 20, 2015, 07:22:33 AM
I can't even... that sounds like an old Rambler running on leaded gas. You still can't see anything coming from a TDi tailpipe on the road. :huh:
They reportedly failed NOx (which has been a problem for diesels in the US since diesels emit more NOx than petrol engines), not particulates or hydrocarbons. You wouldn't be able to see NOx.
Oh Jesus, this is going to be catastrophic...
Following the government investigation of Volkswagen's diesel emissions, The Detroit News reports the automaker ordered its U.S. dealerships to halt sales of new 2016 and remaining 2015 TDI car models with 2.0-liter diesel engines.
According to the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board, VW dodged federal emissions requirements for some 482,000 of its diesel cars — including the Passat, Jetta, Golf, Beetle, SportWagens and Audi A3 — manufactured from 2009 to 2015. The models contain a "defeat device" which exists to detect when the car is under testing conditions, allowing for it to activate the full emissions-control systems only in those circumstances.
In other words, environmental officials say that the street cars are emitting between 10 and 40 times the amount of allowable nitrogen oxide pollution, which is not only illegal but harmful to both the environment and public.
The EPA is taking action on 2016 diesel models. Christopher Grundler, director of the EPA Office of Transportation of Air Quality, said that the government will not grant VW a "certificate of conformity" to sell the 2016 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines, meaning they cannot be sold.
VW dealers have been waiting for the 2016 models to replenish showrooms. Most U.S. VW dealers don't have any remaining 2015 diesel cars to sell.
VW is barred from selling 2016 model vehicles with the 2.0 liter diesel engine until "they get answers to the questions of how these vehicles are being operated. Volkswagen couldn't explain why we're getting these excess emissions," Grundler said.
Meanwhile, whatever 2015 models remain on lots have also been ordered not to be sold. As Automotive News notes, four-cylinder TDI models account for 20 to 25 percent of VW's U.S. sales, so this is going to hurt.
In addition, VW has ordered an outside investigation to find out what happened and "reverse the damage this has caused," CEO Martin Winterkorn said in an apologetic statement.
According to the EPA, the agency is now checking to see if other automakers are bypassing the laws on diesel engines as well.
While no official recall is underway just yet, the News reports:
EPA said VW violated federal law and, in theory, could face fines of up to $18 billion — $37,500 per vehicle — as well as criminal prosecution. Both agencies issued notices of non-compliance to VW Friday, a step necessary before ordering a recall.
The EPA will not take action to stop VW owners from driving their personal cars until a solution is made available, but VW did remove its "clean diesel" advertisements from YouTube and television.
EPA is so greedy. What would they do with $18billion? Pay lobbyists?
By the way the same guys that investigated this also tested a diesel X5. It passed emissions on real world driving unlike the vee dubs.
EPA is one of the worse federal agencies - from pushing power into the hands of ME dictators to killing jobs to stifling innovation to destroying wealth to harming the environment. It's awful and WtP should never have put up with it.
I hate diesels of course but this *almost* makes me want to go buy a VW TDi.
The winner is the EPA. The loser is the consumer.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 20, 2015, 11:36:00 AM
By the way the same guys that investigated this also tested a diesel X5. It passed emissions on real world driving unlike the vee dubs.
Lol I salute your fanboism :lol:
Lol yeah. All I can think of, "can I get a diesel Jetta wagon for pennies on the dollar and flash it?!"
Mother Nature hates me for sure.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 20, 2015, 11:36:00 AM
By the way the same guys that investigated this also tested a diesel X5. It passed emissions on real world driving unlike the vee dubs.
BMW Diesels use Urea.
On Twitter right now:
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/20/9f66f002f1528f1be34a5889a12df42f.jpg)
Yikes. Now starts the dogpile on VW.
Lincoln is talking shit because more of their lineup is lame as shit and Audi has been kicking their ass everywhere for the past 20 years.
Have you driven a Lincoln MKC by any chance?
I really haven't heard anything about Lincoln's in a long time. Then out of no where, I was watching one of Doug Demuro's what car would you buy videos, and everybody on there was talking about it being a class leader. They all loved the thing and were saying it was the best pick around $35k. It was weird.
The trouble with the MKC is how nice the Escape Titanium is
The problem with the escape is the interior looks like Vader's helmet. All black, glossy in a lot of places. Just miserable.
Also the back seat is too low.
Lexus NX, plz
Quote from: MrH on September 20, 2015, 07:33:50 PM
The problem with the escape is the interior looks like Vader's helmet. All black, glossy in a lot of places. Just miserable.
I don't know, I like it. I also like Sync. Actually, I don't think there's anything about the Escape I didn't like.
Quote from: MrH on September 20, 2015, 06:31:26 PM
Have you driven a Lincoln MKC by any chance?
I really haven't heard anything about Lincoln's in a long time. Then out of no where, I was watching one of Doug Demuro's what car would you buy videos, and everybody on there was talking about it being a class leader. They all loved the thing and were saying it was the best pick around $35k. It was weird.
They're nice as Ubers.
Update: This morning Volkswagen Canada also announced they were halting sales of TDI models. The CBC reports Environment Canada is in talks with the EPA "to further examine this issue and assess potential implications for Canada."
VW stock is down 20% this morning.
You wonder if they'll ever recover.
Of course they will. People still buy Toyotas and Chevys, and those things supposedly killed people!
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on September 21, 2015, 11:17:08 AM
You wonder if they'll ever recover.
The German auto industry survived the late 90s
This is a blip
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 21, 2015, 11:21:04 AM
Of course they will. People still buy Toyotas and Chevys, and those things supposedly killed people!
Yeah I suppose the GM thing was a lot worse.
But when it comes to their diesel cars, that's the question. They'd have to figure out a way to make them pass the EPA requirements and I kinda wonder why they didn't just figure it out in the first place. Surely the Germans, some of the most innovative and capable car engineers on the planet, would be able to figure out a way. Maybe they could, it was too expensive and they decided to cheat.
Either way, I'm sure they regret the course of action they took. It's a shame too because diesels are a good alternative and, at least around here, diesel is much cheaper than regular gas.
They do pass the EPA requirements.
I feel like the circumvention of the DPF is more of an emissions parts longevity thing rather than a large performance issue.
Also, I would not be surprised if for 2017+ these cars switch to Urea-based after-exhaust treatment.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 21, 2015, 12:18:54 PM
They do pass the EPA requirements.
I feel like the circumvention of the DPF is more of an emissions parts longevity thing rather than a large performance issue.
Also, I would not be surprised if for 2017+ these cars switch to Urea-based after-exhaust treatment.
I thought they changed to an AdBlue system for MY2016.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 21, 2015, 12:31:25 PM
I thought they changed to an AdBlue system for MY2016.
On the 2.0? I thought urea injection was only on the larger engines.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2015, 11:21:48 AM
The German auto industry survived the late 90s
This is a blip
This is intentional, premeditated circumventing of the rules + cover up. Not some engineering screw-up with a later cover up effort (like at GM or Takata). I think the planning and intentionality of it all makes a big difference. VW is in deep.
Anyone think Peich's exit is tied to this :popcorn:
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 21, 2015, 12:45:46 PM
This is intentional, premeditated circumventing of the rules + cover up. Not some engineering screw-up with a later cover up effort (like at GM or Takata). I think the planning and intentionality of it all makes a big difference. VW is in deep.
Yeah, but Brady was playing again this weekend. 'Murricans will forgive a cheater if it works for them....
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2015, 01:09:49 PM
Anyone think Peich's exit is tied to this :popcorn:
I thought peich was already out and replaced by winterkorn
VW stock is tanking. Time to buy!
Quote from: MrH on September 21, 2015, 01:38:51 PM
VW stock is tanking. Time to buy!
Not much to buy, the company is mostly private.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 21, 2015, 01:09:49 PM
Anyone think Peich's exit is tied to this :popcorn:
I was thinking that as well. I am not sure in which constellation. Either Piëch was responsible for this and had to go, or he found out that Winterkorn did this and tried (failed) to slaughter him.
Quote from: MX793 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
On the 2.0? I thought urea injection was only on the larger engines.
The Passat uses the 2.0 L engine with urea injection; it is among the models that contained the programming to fib its way through the EPA emissions testing and was found by the researchers who discovered the "defeat device" to have 5-20x the allowable NOx, even with the urea injection.
I don't like this idea of unlimited liability when it comes to automakers. If the EPA's test is not realistic, then the problem is their test.
If you own a TDI who's going to make you go in and have it detuned?
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 21, 2015, 06:05:26 PM
I don't like this idea of unlimited liability when it comes to automakers. If the EPA's test is not realistic, then the problem is their test.
It's not a matter of the EPA test being unrealistic, it's a matter of VW having programmed the cars to completely ignore the running conditions that make it pass said test when it's not undergoing testing. It's about VW deliberately scheming a way around the EPA test.
QuoteIf you own a TDI who's going to make you go in and have it detuned?
If you live in a state that requires annual emissions testing (e.g. California) the state would likely refuse renewing its registration until the condition was remedied.
Oh shit, that last one is a valid point. :mask:
So, wonder what the outcome will be for all current inventory? Do they scramble for a power robbing reflash?
I can't be the only one hoping prices take a dive, can pick one up cheap and flash it with an APR tune :lol:
Only thing I can think of is how cheap a Golf TDI is gonna get
A major selling point of the TDi, besides fuel economy and longevity, was high resale value. There's going to be a lot of pissed off owners.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 21, 2015, 06:05:26 PM
I don't like this idea of unlimited liability when it comes to automakers. If the EPA's test is not realistic, then the problem is their test.
If you own a TDI who's going to make you go in and have it detuned?
If the EPA's test is not realistic, why is everyone else able to pass it without these silly tricks?
Quote from: MrH on September 21, 2015, 06:25:09 PM
So, wonder what the outcome will be for all current inventory? Do they scramble for a power robbing reflash?
I can't be the only one hoping prices take a dive, can pick one up cheap and flash it with an APR tune :lol:
But then u have to drive a diesel car. Keep in mind, fuel consumption is proportional to the inverse of gas mileage, and there are plenty of gas cars that get close to what the TDIs do, without the nasty particulates, complex emissions controls or "stinky" exhausts (not to mention the awful engine notes, peaky powerbands and price premiums).
What I am hoping is that regular VWs get cheaper too, though I don't think people's attn span goes that long. Wouldnt mind a new Tiguan and GTI to replace the current fleet.
There goes my Tiguan TDi dreams. :cry:
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 21, 2015, 07:01:30 PM
Only thing I can think of is how cheap a Golf TDI is gonna get
Saw blurb that the EPA or whatever convening authority will go after owners of current cars.
I will say this "scandal" reads like a Soviet political purge. It is glorious.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 21, 2015, 07:50:59 PM
I will say this "scandal" reads like a Soviet political purge. It is glorious.
It sure does
I don't think any sort of value will affect current VW TDI cars.
It's not like, say, the GM diesels back in the 1980's that were a liability because they literally did not run. The VW TDI cars still generally perform well.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 21, 2015, 08:01:38 PM
It's not like, say, the GM diesels back in the 1980's that were a liability because they literally did not run. The VW TDI cars still generally perform well.
GM should try the same trick again. Take the L86 V8, raise the compression sky high without strengthening anything, and inject diesel fuel without modifying the heads or shape if the combustion chamber. Bam, diesel engine.
If your state DMV won't allow you to register your TDI-powered car unless it has been 'repaired' then yeah, it'll definitely affect the value of the car. If the 'repair' entails reducing power and fuel economy (which they most likely will) that will definitely affect the value of the car too.
My hope is that VW has a planned defense and unlike GM and Toyota fights harder though I like the fact that either way there will be far less diesel-powered vehicles on the road and we'll be better off for it.
The EPA test is realistic, but intentionally repeatable and has the car navigating a very specific trace exactly the same way every time. Apparently the VW program can recognize when its being tested and act accordingly.
Or there might be other telltales, such as the GPS not registering actual movement that triggers "EPA mode."
Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 21, 2015, 09:22:03 PM
Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.
Yes, but I am sure in court you start at -10 once the jury is told the company was founded by Hitler. :lol:
Quote from: Galaxy on September 21, 2015, 09:42:10 PM
Yes, but I am sure in court you start at -10 once the jury is told the company was founded by Hitler. :lol:
Yet oddly enough, beloved by aging hippies and über liberals of all ages.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 21, 2015, 11:38:56 PM
Yet oddly enough, beloved by aging hippies and über liberals of all ages.
The People's Kar
I want to know what exactly what the car was doing. The car that failed (one of them) was the new Passat 2.0TDI with Urea. Was the car programmed to stand and use far more Urea than usual in "testing"?
Quote from: 2o6 on September 22, 2015, 07:02:03 AM
I want to know what exactly what the car was doing. The car that failed (one of them) was the new Passat 2.0TDI with Urea. Was the car programmed to stand and use far more Urea than usual in "testing"?
Cat piss useage is not part of fuel economy. But maybe it should be.
NOx emissions tend to go hand in hand with higher combustion temperatures. I suspect they ran the motors a bit rich in testing to reduce temperature.
As I understand it, US emissions regs are very stringent on NOx compared to Euro regs, whereas Euro regs are more stringent for carbon. Running rich should hurt carbon emissions, but help NOx to some degree. I wonder if the default engine mapping is the same as what's run in Euro market cars and the inserted the defeat device mapping just to get past US testing.
I don't care about emissions at all.
Still I want to see VW burn for this and probably will not buy a VW product based on this. Why? Because of their willingness to intentionally cheat in every sense of the word on this. The EPA rules may be draconian, but VW's response to it calls into question everything that they do, and everything that they have done. What about their safety features? Do they only work under testing circumstances as well? I think it's even warranted to look into their racing success, where playing by the rules is everything. I think the FIA needs a close hard look at Audi's string of Leman's Victories, especially with their TDI engines to see if similar cheating has occurred.
If they are willing to go so far here, where else has similar philosophy been used in their cars? I think it's foolish to think this is the only place where VW has been dishonest.
Quote from: 565 on September 22, 2015, 07:25:01 AM
I don't care about emissions at all.
Still I want to see VW burn for this and probably will not buy a VW product based on this. Why? Because of their willingness to intentionally cheat in every sense of the word on this. The EPA rules may be draconian, but VW's response to it calls into question everything that they do, and everything that they have done. What about their safety features? Do they only work under testing circumstances as well? I think it's even warranted to look into their racing success, where playing by the rules is everything. I think the FIA needs a close hard look at Audi's string of Leman's Victories, especially with their TDI engines to see if similar cheating has occurred.
If they are willing to go so far here, where else has similar philosophy been used in their cars? I think it's foolish to think this is the only place where VW has been dishonest.
Do you honestly think large corporations are honest?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 21, 2015, 09:22:03 PM
The EPA test is realistic, but intentionally repeatable and has the car navigating a very specific trace exactly the same way every time. Apparently the VW program can recognize when its being tested and act accordingly.
Or there might be other telltales, such as the GPS not registering actual movement that triggers "EPA mode."
Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.
This article said it didn't require so much complexity:
QuoteOne key part of the unfolding Volkswagen diesel-emissions scandal is that the vehicles in question operated in two different modes: "On Road" and "Dyno." But merely having two different modes isn't a problem.
The 482,000 Volkswagen and Audi diesel vehicles in question use an Engine Control Unit, or ECU, designed by Robert Bosch GmbH, a German multinational engineering and electronics company. In addition to the ECU, Bosch supplies other key components, such as the computers that control the braking and Electronic Stability Control systems. This is where the Dyno mode—also known as Test mode—comes into play.
Emissions system and fuel economy testing is conducted while a vehicle is placed on a dynamometer—think of it as a two big rollers or a treadmill—rather than driving on the road. The vehicle has only its driving wheels rolling (the front ones, in the case of VW vehicles). But the rear tires are stationary.
The vehicle could otherwise interpret the test procedure as a dangerous situation or malfunction, activating traction control or stability control. By enabling a test mode, the vehicle will be able to operate during the test process. Once the test is complete and the car is restarted, the car reverts to its normal function. And once the cars are in on-the-road mode, they emit nitrogen oxide at 40 times the federal standard, according to the EPA.
The existence of a testing mode isn't a red flag. Most new vehicles have a similar setting. The concern here is that the VW models in question performed differently during the EPA tests to meet emissions targets that differ from their performance in the real world.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-exploited-test-mode (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-exploited-test-mode)
Quote from: 2o6 on September 22, 2015, 07:26:05 AM
Do you honestly think large corporations are honest?
I think large corporations operate based on what they think they can get away with. Someone at VW clearly lacked judgment and thought they could get away with this. If a company has the balls to do something like this, then you have to think what else they are capable of. Every system is called into question.
I also think that if you get caught lying to a Government Agency on such a immense scale you shouldn't be surprised there are consequences. Hopefully the EPA fines VW into the ground.
Quote from: 565 on September 22, 2015, 07:25:01 AM
What about their safety features? Do they only work under testing circumstances as well?
To make sure the tests are "fair" to every manufacturer, the tests are precisely carried out and exactly measured/monitored.
Car manufacturers use all kinds of "tricks" to get a "high score" in the "game" called "safety tests".
I read of someone saying that a car was brought in and got "medium" score in a frontal crash test. They took the exact same type car, adjusted the seat and/or headrest (without any other changes) and brought it back and got a "superb" score.
It's always the same exact result of government making things "fair and equal"- someone will figure out how to take advantage of the system.
"So let's be clear about this: Our company was dishonest with the EPA and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you." - Michael Horn, president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagens-u-s-ceo-admits-we-totally-screwed-up/ (http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagens-u-s-ceo-admits-we-totally-screwed-up/)
So what's going to happen to all those VW diesels? Recall them? Replace them? Refund them?
What a shitshow.
I can think of one way in which VW has been dishonest- there's no way my car is only putting down 200 hp at the crank.
You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.
Anything's possible, though the group that discovered the inconsistency with VW also test a BMW and found the results met regulations.
Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.
Quote from: MX793 on September 21, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
On the 2.0? I thought urea injection was only on the larger engines.
They made the switch on the Golf and Jetta last year. All new engine for 2015, came with a bump in power and mileage but requires yearly urea treatments. The 2014 Golf and Jetta TDIs are non-urea.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 18, 2015, 03:47:10 PM
If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.
Nah, if what I said was accurate, the difference has been negligible. We're talking about 53-54 mpg on steady-state highway driving versus 55-56 pre-flash. Either way I'm still crushing EPA estimates, but it is a little concerning that VW would risk so much for such a meager reward.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on September 22, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.
There's nothing to suggest that other companies are doing the same thing. The one thing that really separated the VW 2.0 L engine from their competitors' engines was that in most applications VW didn't use selective catalytic reduction (SCR): it didn't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF; except in the Passat). Not having to provide SCR substantially reduces the cost to build the cars, and not having to refill a DEF tank is more convenient and less costly to the consumer. VW could build their TDI Jettas and Golfs cheaper than anyone else could build a compact diesel therefore they could sell them with less of a price premium, and they could market the convenience of not having to add DEF. It's no wonder that VW became synonymous with "Clean Diesels" in North America: they purported to build them so clean they didn't need all the extra emissions equipment everyone else had.
For years there had been rumours about companies bringing diesels to North America; Honda, Subaru, Mazda all said they'd bring their diesels over, but none of them did. Why? They couldn't get their engines to have the same level of driveability as VW's while still meeting US emissions standards
without SCR/DEF. The only other carmaker that sells a compact car with a diesel in North America is GM, and the Chevy Cruze Diesel uses SCR/DEF.
So now we know why no one else could make a small diesel that met emissions standards without SCR and provided the high level of driveability that Volkswagen did: Volkswagen couldn't either, they just programmed the cars to only be compliant with the emissions standards while the cars were being tested. When they weren't being tested the cars were programmed to deliberately ignore the running conditions that allowed them to pass the emissions test.
Like MX793 said, the same researchers who discovered the VW programming also tested a BMW X5 (which uses SCR/DEF) and it passed the emissions tests in normal driving, but anything's possible. I bet we'll see every single diesel sold in North America re-tested for emissions compliance, to make sure VW wasn't pulling the same shenanigans with its V6 and V10 diesels and to make sure no one else did what VW did.
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.
They made the switch on the Golf and Jetta last year. All new engine for 2015, came with a bump in power and mileage but requires yearly urea treatments. The 2014 Golf and Jetta TDIs are non-urea.
Nah, if what I said was accurate, the difference has been negligible. We're talking about 53-54 mpg on steady-state highway driving versus 55-56 pre-flash. Either way I'm still crushing EPA estimates, but it is a little concerning that VW would risk so much for such a meager reward.
Your recall was an attempt to rectify this, however the EPA informed VW on September 3 that this attempt failed.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 22, 2015, 11:43:12 AM
Your recall was an attempt to rectify this, however the EPA informed VW on September 3 that this attempt failed.
Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?
Quote from: 93JC on September 22, 2015, 11:20:41 AM
There's nothing to suggest that other companies are doing the same thing. The one thing that really separated the VW 2.0 L engine from their competitors' engines was that in most applications VW didn't use selective catalytic reduction (SCR): it didn't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF; except in the Passat). Not having to provide SCR substantially reduces the cost to build the cars, and not having to refill a DEF tank is more convenient and less costly to the consumer. VW could build their TDI Jettas and Golfs cheaper than anyone else could build a compact diesel therefore they could sell them with less of a price premium, and they could market the convenience of not having to add DEF. It's no wonder that VW became synonymous with "Clean Diesels" in North America: they purported to build them so clean they didn't need all the extra emissions equipment everyone else had.
For years there had been rumours about companies bringing diesels to North America; Honda, Subaru, Mazda all said they'd bring their diesels over, but none of them did. Why? They couldn't get their engines to have the same level of driveability as VW's while still meeting US emissions standards without SCR/DEF. The only other carmaker that sells a compact car with a diesel in North America is GM, and the Chevy Cruze Diesel uses SCR/DEF.
So now we know why no one else could make a small diesel that met emissions standards without SCR and provided the high level of driveability that Volkswagen did: Volkswagen couldn't either, they just programmed the cars to only be compliant with the emissions standards while the cars were being tested. When they weren't being tested the cars were programmed to deliberately ignore the running conditions that allowed them to pass the emissions test.
Like MX793 said, the same researchers who discovered the VW programming also tested a BMW X5 (which uses SCR/DEF) and it passed the emissions tests in normal driving, but anything's possible. I bet we'll see every single diesel sold in North America re-tested for emissions compliance, to make sure VW wasn't pulling the same shenanigans with its V6 and V10 diesels and to make sure no one else did what VW did.
Yep, exactly. I was wondering why the Mazda6 diesel wasn't here yet. They kept saying they couldn't pass emissions and wanted to do it without urea injection. It all makes sense now.
EPA already said today they'll be testing the V6's. Even though VW is saying those are fine because they have urea injection, I'm wondering if they also ran rich and cool just to ensure they pass.
I'd love for nothing more than a fire sale on A7 TDIs. :praise:
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 12:04:05 PM
Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?
You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.
is the emissions test with only drivewheels on rollers and something plugged into the computer???
That's what VW was telling the computer to watch for and "be nice" for..
State inspection now doesn't include an emissions test each time. They assume if you have no check engine lights, you're still good based on the original certification for the engine.
And yes, the ECU was programmed to look for key things to indicate it was under going an EPA test, in which case it ran really rich to keep temperatures and NOx emissions low in order to pass.
Quote from: ifcar on September 22, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.
That's only for the EPA test. I'm not sure how other states work but in California they just hook up to your OBD port and if you have no check engine lights or codes you're good to go, so a horribly polluting TDI would be fine.
I think some states may use sniffers, but most just scan the OBD port for engine and emissions codes.
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 12:04:05 PM
Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?
You're passing emissions testing 'cause your car never really got "fixed': it still has that same sequence in it that switches it over to "test" mode when it's on the dyno. The software update was just a last-ditch effort to placate the EPA.
Quote from: MrH on September 22, 2015, 12:06:27 PM
Yep, exactly. I was wondering why the Mazda6 diesel wasn't here yet. They kept saying they couldn't pass emissions and wanted to do it without urea injection. It all makes sense now.
EPA already said today they'll be testing the V6's. Even though VW is saying those are fine because they have urea injection, I'm wondering if they also ran rich and cool just to ensure they pass.
I'd love for nothing more than a fire sale on A7 TDIs. :praise:
I hear out of warranty A7s/Cayennes/Touaregs come with free engine hoists, service manuals and a full set of tools :ohyeah:
VW could be in mortal danger over this. The fines, penalties, sales hit etc, could be enough to put it under. Everyone is piling in.
Sooo.... 10 Millionen cars world wide are effected, although it is not clear if that causes them to not meet emissions in all cases. A Jetta with the software designed to cheat in the US, might still meet emission tests in Brazil.
Still, if I were the VW station Chief in China I would now head for the airport. In cases like this the chinese take "heads must roll" literally.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 22, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
Sooo.... 10 Millionen cars world wide are effected, although it is not clear if that causes them to not meet emissions in all cases. A Jetta with the software designed to cheat in the US, might still meet emission tests in Brazil.
Still, if I were the VW station Chief in China I would now head for the airport. In cases like this the chinese take "heads must roll" literally.
Do the Chinese even have emissions regulations?
Quote from: MX793 on September 22, 2015, 03:03:53 PM
Do the Chinese even have emissions regulations?
Yes, the tailpipe must visibly smoke in order to let the pedestrians know you're coming.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 22, 2015, 03:06:26 PM
Yes, the tailpipe must visibly smoke in order to let the pedestrians know you're coming.
Surprisingly sensible and reasonable.
Quote from: MX793 on September 22, 2015, 03:09:47 PM
Surprisingly sensible and reasonable.
I hope the tailpies are pointed out the fronts if the vehicles, then. They will be more visible to both drivers and pedestrians. They would then be called headpipes.
Quote from: ifcar on September 22, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.
I read the California EPA release on the earlier recall, and it isn't clear what's happening. The reflash definitely changed the emissions, and reduced particulates. While the NOx levels were still "significantly higher than expected," that doesn't necessarily mean that they exceeded permitted levels. As bizarre as this whole thing is, it seems even more strange that they would do the recall but leave the test-defeat active, but who knows. CA EPA has apparently rejected the recall in favor of some yet-to-be-determined future action designed to "return these vehicles to the claimed certified configuration."
I don't really care if it meets the claimed specs so long as it doesn't exceed the allowable ppm. The CA EPA statement (http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf) goes out of its way to avoid making that assertion, and you would think they would come right out and say it if the reflashed vehicles were completely outside of applicable limits.
This is frustrating as an owner, and doubly so because even a layman can physically see that the newest round of passengers diesels are emitting orders-of-magnitude-less amounts of particulates compared to our domestic diesel pickups.
LOL, no wonder my car passed inspection, NC doesn't require an emissions test for inspection on diesels.
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 04:07:15 PM
LOL, no wonder my car passed inspection, NC doesn't require an emissions test for inspection on diesels.
Time to roll some coal.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 22, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
VW could be in mortal danger over this. The fines, penalties, sales hit etc, could be enough to put it under. Everyone is piling in.
If it comes to that, I am sure the German government would foot the bill at whatever cost necessary to keep them afloat.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2015, 04:28:42 PM
If it comes to that, I am sure the German government would foot the bill at whatever cost necessary to keep them afloat.
VW is pretty huge, though.
Quote from: Raza on September 22, 2015, 04:30:11 PM
VW is pretty huge, though.
Yes but the German government is hugerer. :lol:
You did it for GM.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2015, 04:31:02 PM
Yes but the German government is hugerer. :lol:
You did it for GM.
I see. I wasn't clear. I meant VW is so large that I doubt it will come to a bailout situation.
Quote from: Raza on September 22, 2015, 04:32:55 PM
I see. I wasn't clear. I meant VW is so large that I doubt it will come to a bailout situation.
I agree. They could probably take a hit in the 20-30 billion range and still survive. A decade to recover or so however.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 22, 2015, 04:41:25 PM
I agree. They could probably take a hit in the 20-30 billion range and still survive. A decade to recover or so however.
I don't know. A year or two and a debt issue and it will be long forgotten.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 22, 2015, 04:31:57 PM
VAG is pretty huge
Are we talking 'bout the same thing... or are you still Russian wife shopping?
Quote from: Rockraven on September 22, 2015, 05:18:37 PM
Are we talking 'bout the same thing... or are you still Russian wife shopping?
Wife must acknowledge the hugeness of VAG.
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 03:52:02 PM
This is frustrating as an owner, and doubly so because even a layman can physically see that the newest round of passengers diesels are emitting orders-of-magnitude-less amounts of particulates compared to our domestic diesel pickups.
If GM, Ford and FCA/Cummins are to be believed, their big pickups meet Tier II Bin 5... (Or under Tier III, the new "LEV160" rating.)
VW gets most of its sales in China. Very few diesel cars are sold in China so VW will be fine there. I think VW will be badly hurt in the U.S. TDI accounts for one quarter to one third of total sales and so right now at every single U.S. dealership there are loads of cars sitting there unable to be sold. More importantly there is the public perception problem now. They're walking around with a scarlet A on their chest. As it is VW has not been doing well in the U.S. while their rivals are posting increased sales. I think they'll survive in the U.S. but many dealerships will close. This will be sad because they're currently the only mainstreamer automaker for sale in the U.S. from Europe.
$10k off Golf R! All will be forgiven then with me! :lol:
Quote from: veeman on September 22, 2015, 07:28:47 PM
VW gets most of its sales in China. Very few diesel cars are sold in China so VW will be fine there. I think VW will be badly hurt in the U.S. TDI accounts for one quarter to one third of total sales and so right now at every single U.S. dealership there are loads of cars sitting there unable to be sold. More importantly there is the public perception problem now. They're walking around with a scarlet A on their chest. As it is VW has not been doing well in the U.S. while their rivals are posting increased sales. I think they'll survive in the U.S. but many dealerships will close. This will be sad because they're currently the only mainstreamer automaker for sale in the U.S. from Europe.
Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad. It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).
Quote from: MX793 on September 22, 2015, 07:44:33 PM
Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad. It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).
I agree
Once I get the required recall, my mileage will drop and/or I'll have less power. There will be greater wear on the engine as well. I'll probably end up with a gas card from VW.
No matter what, there is nothing good which will come to a current TDI owner and most will jump ship when it comes time to switch cars.
There's not going to be any buyback. And the car just took a nosedive on the resale market, unless VW decides to quit selling TDI.
The only feasible thing VW could do to make it up is substantially increase my warranty. I doubt they will do that however...
Quote from: MX793 on September 22, 2015, 07:44:33 PM
Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad. It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).
One or more of those things you mention will happen however because, otherwise, there would have been no reason for VW to take such a risky gamble and cheat.
I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.
The amont of extra pollution is negligible.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 22, 2015, 08:40:54 PM
I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.
The amont of extra pollution is negligible.
That just sets a precedent for other manufacturers to try and sneak around the system, knowing that if they get caught it's just a simple fine and fix. I think the EPA wants to make an example of VW to keep their (perceived) power/authority over automakers.
Quote from: MX793 on September 22, 2015, 07:44:33 PM
Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad. It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).
Again people forget how god awful VWAG (and Mercedes) cars were from like 1998-2005. With VWAG pretty much every turbocharged engine had some serious issue, usually related to oil. I think all VWAG cars had ignition coil problems. MB had issues like rusting shock tower perches and just generally unacceptable design/reliability issues. And yet people still roll the dice on them used and remember the cars fondly. Problems weren't quite "malaise era domestic" level but they were damn close and worse IMO because the cars were so much more expensive and designed with "German Engineering".
So just like with Toyota and the "unintended acceleration" BS or even GM with the ignition recalls I think they should be OK. VWAG's brands are strong as fuck, their cars are desirable, and I don't think resale values will remain low. Those are pretty much the only 3 things that matter for selling cars these days.
I can't picture any sort of class action netting anything more than Hyundai's MPG fiasco from a year or so ago.
Everyone has forgotten about that, seems like.
Besides, doesn't the EPA sticker number show the MPG when the car isn't cheating? So there's going to be a negligible difference, since these cars generally beat EPA testing, and probably still will.
Quote from: veeman on September 22, 2015, 08:02:09 PM
Once I get the required recall, my mileage will drop and/or I'll have less power. There will be greater wear on the engine as well. I'll probably end up with a gas card from VW.
No matter what, there is nothing good which will come to a current TDI owner and most will jump ship when it comes time to switch cars.
There's not going to be any buyback. And the car just took a nosedive on the resale market, unless VW decides to quit selling TDI.
The only feasible thing VW could do to make it up is substantially increase my warranty. I doubt they will do that however...
I think this is all drastically overblown.
VW cheated, and owners should be compensated, but it's not like you were advertised getting Bugatti Veyron power and now you've got the power of a 3cyl Mirage.
I feel like the differences will be negligible at best.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2015, 05:50:49 AM
I can't picture any sort of class action netting anything more than Hyundai's MPG fiasco from a year or so ago.
Everyone has forgotten about that, seems like.
Besides, doesn't the EPA sticker number show the MPG when the car isn't cheating? So there's going to be a negligible difference, since these cars generally beat EPA testing, and probably still will.
Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing. In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai.. Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on September 22, 2015, 08:40:54 PM
I wish the EPA would just fine them, make them fix it on new models within 6 months, and get it over with. All of this vindictive grandstanding is unproductive and doesn't do anybody any good.
The amont of extra pollution is negligible.
Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.
The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...
Quote from: MX793 on September 23, 2015, 05:55:16 AM
Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing. In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai.. Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.
Nothing triggers test mode. Test mode is already active when the car is at the EPA's testing facilities.
I read that most cars have a "test mode" that EPA and other places use, so that way the computer doesn't get confused if there's certain conditions that might confuse the ECU (like one set of wheels moving but not another)
The test mode isn't secret, but the behavior in test mode is.
Talked to a guy with a (2012?) TDI wagon yesterday, he was laughing at it, figures it's not a big deal, still likes the car.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2015, 05:56:06 AM
Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.
The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...
If they can't levy fines how can they ever be effective?
Quote from: MX793 on September 23, 2015, 05:55:16 AM
Depending on what triggers test mode, it may have been in test mode during fuel economy testing. In which case, assuming the fix is to permanently use the test mode ECU map, published fuel economy figures will be unchanged and there would be no penalties like what happened with Hyundai.. Owners will simply go from beating EPA to getting EPA mileage.
Don't forget that the EPA only tests about 15 percent of the car models available for sale. the EPA publishes the manufacturer's estimates for the remaining 85 percent. So who, other than the manufacturer, knows what was going on during that testing.
Quote from: CLKid on September 23, 2015, 07:31:49 AM
Don't forget that the EPA only tests about 15 percent of the car models available for sale. the EPA publishes the manufacturer's estimates for the remaining 85 percent. So who, other than the manufacturer, knows what was going on during that testing.
The manufacturer is supposed to use EPA procedures when determining fuel economy. You're correct that the EPA only tests a small sample themselves, though I believe they audit test reports.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2015, 05:56:06 AM
Agreed. The prospect of the EPA swelling its coffers by sucking the life out of VW does not thrill me. It's a serious crime, but not a capital crime.
The EPA is not a paragon of virtue, to put it mildly...
The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.
Quote from: MX793 on September 23, 2015, 07:34:02 AM
The manufacturer is supposed to use EPA procedures when determining fuel economy. You're correct that the EPA only tests a small sample themselves, though I believe they audit test reports.
And of course auditing itself usually just means testing a small % of the results.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2015, 07:11:07 AM
If they can't levy fines how can they ever be effective?
Well I supposed they could have mass hangings. But why do you ask that question?
Are you saying a fine that stops short of a mortal blow is not a fine?
Quote from: Tave on September 22, 2015, 11:13:06 AM
Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.
Seems you're right: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/22/anatomy-of-volkswagons-deception-the-recall-that-never-fixed-any-cars/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/22/anatomy-of-volkswagons-deception-the-recall-that-never-fixed-any-cars/)
QuoteVolkswagen's decision to equip 11 million vehicles with devices to cheat emissions tests worldwide has sent the company into an acute corporate crisis in recent days. But on Dec. 2, 2014, the company assured U.S. and California regulators that its engineers had a straightforward solution.
Volkswagen told officials then that a software change would remedy the overflow of pollution emitted by its diesel cars, according to state and federal letters to the company. At the time, Volkswagen proposed a "voluntary recall" of about 500,000 vehicles. State and federal officials approved the plan.
That fix was either a technical failure or, some officials said, another ruse.
By May of this year, California tests showed that "the recall calibration did reduce emissions to some degree but NOx [nitrogen oxide] emissions were still significantly higher than expected."
The extent of the recall, which is discussed in letters between government and company officials, is unknown. Company officials wouldn't say this week how many recall notification letters Volkswagen issued to consumers, and how many consumers brought their cars in for the purported fix.
But the incident is one of the highlights in what federal and state officials have likened to a cat-and-mouse game between regulators and one of the world's largest automakers.
"They basically ran out of excuses," said Stanley Young, spokesperson for the California Air Resources Board. "They would say the tests weren't at the right temperature, or some other issue. We had them in [to our offices] several times."
Quote from: SJ_GTI on September 23, 2015, 08:29:34 AM
The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.
But they also "justify" their existence, and can ask for more money/employees...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2015, 08:46:23 AM
But they also "justify" their existence, and can ask for more money/employees...
I am going to guess that the republican controlled House and Senate, which has been reducing the EPA's budget in recent years, will not be giving them more money/employees.
On the bright side of this, I would not mind seeing diesel having its green credentials revoked. They really are a bit smelly & smoky. Last month it was good to get back to Atlanta (not exactly a clean-air paradise itself) after spending a week inhaling diesel smoke in SE England.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on September 23, 2015, 08:48:55 AM
I am going to guess that the republican controlled House and Senate, which has been reducing the EPA's budget in recent years, will not be giving them more money/employees.
which means they fight harder to justify their existence?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2015, 09:11:20 AM
which means they fight harder to justify their existence?
OK...? Not even sure what your point is to be honest.
Holy shit, he resigned!
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2015, 05:54:25 AM
I think this is all drastically overblown.
VW cheated, and owners should be compensated, but it's not like you were advertised getting Bugatti Veyron power and now you've got the power of a 3cyl Mirage.
I feel like the differences will be negligible at best.
I agree that something like this is on par with a fender bender. Annoying and disheartening but relatively minor inconvenience. Still good to bitch about it though. And I want a longer warranty :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2015, 08:56:57 AM
On the bright side of this, I would not mind seeing diesel having its green credentials revoked. They really are a bit smelly & smoky. Last month it was good to get back to Atlanta (not exactly a clean-air paradise itself) after spending a week inhaling diesel smoke in SE England.
Couldn't agree more. The US needs fewer diesels and this will most certainly help.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on September 23, 2015, 08:29:34 AM
The EPA doesn't have coffers. neither the employees nor the department itself gets to keep or use the fines they collect.
Sure they do, and the very worst kind - the near bottomless pit of irrational action (such as a fine of $30,000+ per offending vehicle).
VW con produced as much extra air pollution as all UK power generation, industry, ag & vehicles
https://boingboing.net/2015/09/23/vw-con-produced-as-much-extra.html
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 23, 2015, 08:33:27 AM
Well I supposed they could have mass hangings. But why do you ask that question?
Are you saying a fine that stops short of a mortal blow is not a fine?
I'm saying laws and regulations are pointless if there is no way to enforce them. The only way realistic way to do that is through fines.
I do think the process should be more transparent and less arbitrary, but ultimately VW knowingly cheated the system which has consequences.
How exactly would you prefer this all go instead?
Quote from: Laconian on September 23, 2015, 11:24:42 AM
VW con produced as much extra air pollution as all UK power generation, industry, ag & vehicles
https://boingboing.net/2015/09/23/vw-con-produced-as-much-extra.html
Breaking up the world's largest automaker just to prove a point to other manufacturers seems a bit extreme (I know you're not suggesting that but still).
Quote from: thecarnut on September 23, 2015, 11:30:00 AM
Breaking up the world's largest automaker just to prove a point to other manufacturers seems a bit extreme (I know you're not suggesting that but still).
Government needs targets to justify itself and this is gloriously perfect.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 11:49:58 AM
Government needs targets to justify itself and this is gloriously perfect.
Yes, imagine that, the Environmental Protection Agency targeting a company that went out of its way to skirt emissions regulations. The nerve of the EPA doing its job
The EPA is immoral.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:00:29 PM
The EPA is immoral.
Then how would pollution prevention work in Cougistan? Without regulation (and effective enforcement) companies would not need to cheat. They would simply tell you to breath in their pollution and live with it. Well die with it actually.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 23, 2015, 12:06:53 PM
Then how would pollution prevention work in Cougistan? Without regulation (and effective enforcement) companies would not need to cheat. They would simply tell you to breath in their pollution and live with it. Well die with it actually.
Not sure exactly, through two related things I am exactly sure about is the only moral mode of interaction is through voluntary contract and this whole problem starts with corporations being artificially too big and powerful courtesy of immoral government action (corporatism, cronyism, loose fiscal policy, etc.).
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:21:05 PM
Not sure exactly, through two related things I am exactly sure about is the only moral mode of interaction is through voluntary contract and this whole problem starts with corporations being artificially too big and powerful courtesy of immoral government action (corporatism, cronyism, loose fiscal policy, etc.).
without gubment they would pollute the air more, who would care??
So, where is Char?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2015, 12:46:31 PM
without gubment they would pollute the air more, who would care??
This is an irrational premise - there is immorality afoot if government is vested whereby citizens are not.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-unassuming-engineer-who-exposed-volkswagen_5601e295e4b0fde8b0d05376?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-unassuming-engineer-who-exposed-volkswagen_5601e295e4b0fde8b0d05376?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:21:05 PM
Not sure exactly, through two related things I am exactly sure about is the only moral mode of interaction is through voluntary contract and this whole problem starts with corporations being artificially too big and powerful courtesy of immoral government action (corporatism, cronyism, loose fiscal policy, etc.).
????
Cougslandia is just 1 country not a whole planet
If TDI VWs were sold in your country you would have this problem. Unless you banned or regulated them.... which would require govt action :partyon:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:50:24 PM
This is an irrational premise - there is immorality afoot if government is vested whereby citizens are not.
LOL if a company starts polluting the environment what should be done then "morally"??
Situation a- company knows they are polluting, does it anyway, citizens don't know company is polluting
sit b- company and citizens don't know they're polluting
sit c- company doesn't know, citizens don't know for certain, but citizens complain
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:21:05 PM
Not sure exactly, through two related things I am exactly sure about is the only moral mode of interaction is through voluntary contract and this whole problem starts with corporations being artificially too big and powerful courtesy of immoral government action (corporatism, cronyism, loose fiscal policy, etc.).
I would be happy to sign a contract with you not to posion you. For a small fee.
Local news here is today all about the ripple effect hitting the Mexican Puebla VW plant that builds Beetles, Golfs and Jettas for the NA market. Suppliers are already talking about stoppages. It´s a village.
If VW stops selling diesels, I think someone may actually pick up the torch and carry on
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2015, 01:05:19 PM
If VW stops selling diesels, I think someone may actually pick up the torch and carry on
will take awhile. who do you have in mind?
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 23, 2015, 01:09:02 PM
will take awhile. who do you have in mind?
GM and Fiat have plenty
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 12:21:05 PM
Not sure exactly, through two related things I am exactly sure about is the only moral mode of interaction is through voluntary contract and this whole problem starts with corporations being artificially too big and powerful courtesy of immoral government action (corporatism, cronyism, loose fiscal policy, etc.).
BTW
Public roads are immoral. You should stop using them.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2015, 01:15:39 PM
GM and Fiat have plenty
Still have to federalize etc
Plus GM has had an answer to VW's most popular TDI (Cruze)... nobody cared.
Fiat is circling the drain in the US, retro is over.
Just as pretty much no one buys a hybrid that isn't a Toyota (and Prius in particular), so it goes with VWAG diesels.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 01:39:46 PM
Just as pretty much no one buys a hybrid that isn't a Toyota (and Prius in particular), so it goes with VWAG diesels.
:confused:
400,000+ in the US is not "no one"
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 01:39:46 PM
Just as pretty much no one buys a hybrid that isn't a Toyota (and Prius in particular), so it goes with VWAG diesels.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/Ve9pOjJRxkW2c/200_s.gif)
Quote from: mzziaz on September 23, 2015, 12:49:44 PM
So, where is Char?
Probably so overwhelmingly excited by this that he had to be hospitalized.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 23, 2015, 01:15:39 PM
GM and Fiat have plenty
Not plenty that meet the stricter U.S. standards -- the very issue that VW had.
Some owners have been targeted, and many are de-badging the TDi off their cars.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 23, 2015, 03:40:04 PM
Some owners have been targeted, and many are de-badging the TDi off their cars.
Why? :confused:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 23, 2015, 03:48:12 PM
:canada:
Haven't heard of it happening up here. Some guys belonging to a TDi owners forum had their cars vandalized.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 23, 2015, 03:50:13 PM
Haven't heard of it happening up here. Some guys belonging to a TDi owners forum had their cars vandalized.
Oh, my bad.
:erjerbs:
Quote from: Rockraven on September 23, 2015, 03:40:04 PM
Some owners have been targeted, and many are de-badging the TDi off their cars.
Like I said, it's playing out like a Soviet political purge.
WTF have we done to ourselves?
people are sick.
Not seeing any fire sales on "cheater" TDIs yet...
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 23, 2015, 01:03:57 PM
Local news here is today all about the ripple effect hitting the Mexican Puebla VW plant that builds Beetles, Golfs and Jettas for the NA market. Suppliers are already talking about stoppages. It´s a village.
Yeah, the ripple through the whole industry is going to be massive.
I haven't talked to any of my contacts at VW-heavy suppliers, but I'm sure they're still all panicking right now. If the same thing happened to my biggest customer, I'd immediately be taking time off to go job searching.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 23, 2015, 07:08:14 PM
Not seeing any fire sales on "cheater" TDIs yet...
They're under a stop-sale order.
Quote from: ifcar on September 23, 2015, 08:06:04 PM
They're under a stop-sale order.
Shouldn't effect the used ones.
Quote[after 1 year of dilly-dallying around the regulators ] Only when Volkswagen learned that the certification of some of its 2016 model-year cars was partially dependent on the maker fully responding to lingering questions over the older cars' real-world tailpipe emissions did the maker begin to respond in earnest. After weeks of receiving unsatisfactory replies, the agencies in question let VW know that several of its diesel models would not be certified for 2016. Volkswagen did not respond to C/D inquiries for comment.
With the prospect of not being allowed to sell diesels in the U.S. (current estimates indicated diesels make up about 25 percent of Volkswagen's U.S. sales), the maker finally retreated and admitted it had knowingly installed a "sophisticated software algorithm" that permitted the diesels to reduce the amount of NOx emissions while undergoing testing.
Why should this affect sales of 2016 models?
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 23, 2015, 10:12:58 PM
Why should this affect sales of 2016 models?
The EPA is holding their certification until they can verify or rebuke VW's claims.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 24, 2015, 02:57:55 AM
The EPA is holding their certification until they can verify or rebuke VW's claims.
I think that ship has sailed, as VW has admitted fully that the engines were certified in the past due to lies. 2016s are being withheld pending a solution that makes the cars emit less for real, and I guess for some reason running in test mode at all times is unpalatable to VW.
Quote from: ifcar on September 24, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
I think that ship has sailed, as VW has admitted fully that the engines were certified in the past due to lies. 2016s are being withheld pending a solution that makes the cars emit less for real, and I guess for some reason running in test mode at all times is unpalatable to VW.
Running rich may shorten the life of other emissions components.
So you can either have low NOx emissions or low CO2 emissions.
We need both.
So diesels are out.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 24, 2015, 06:19:19 AM
So you can either have low NOx emissions or low CO2 emissions.
We need both.
So diesels are out.
It's possible to achieve both (other manufacturers do), but it's more expensive to build and engine that satisfies both.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 24, 2015, 06:19:19 AM
So you can either have low NOx emissions or low CO2 emissions.
We need both.
So diesels are out.
Because Big Corn is in the EPA's pockets. It is no mistake that the regulations are unfair to diesel cars. LOL, Big Corn... in a pocket.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 24, 2015, 06:46:49 AM
Because Big Corn is in the EPA's pockets. It is no mistake that the regulations are unfair to diesel cars. LOL, Big Corn... in a pocket.
OT
Actually it's the Dept of Agriculture that's the government arm of Big Corn. Useful for reaching into our pockets to subsidize corn production.
(which is why all that syrup makes Americans enormously fat)
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 24, 2015, 07:20:17 AM
(which is why all that syrup makes Americans enormously fat)
"sugar" is just dried up sugarcane syrup. from overseas. :huh:
I figured Big Corn would want more CO2, no? Wouldn't that let the corn grow even bigger...?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on September 24, 2015, 08:00:46 AM
I figured Big Corn would want more CO2, no? Wouldn't that let the corn grow even bigger...?
But they are anti-NOx, since that causes acid rain which hurts corn.
The current CEO of Porsche Matthias Müller will be the new CEO of VW AG according to report. VW has also fired three more executives. The current head of R&D at VW Heinz-Jakob Neußer, the former head of R&D at VW (and current head of R&D at Audi) Ulrich Hackenberg, and Wolfgang Hatz who is both head of R&D at Porsche, and head of engine development for the entire VW Group have all been let go. More purging is expected as they work through the ranks.
Wow...
Quote from: Galaxy on September 24, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
The current CEO of Porsche Matthias Müller will be the new CEO of VW AG according to report. VW has also fired three more executives. The current head of R&D at VW Heinz-Jakob Neußer, the former head of R&D at VW (and current head of R&D at Audi) Ulrich Hackenberg, and Wolfgang Hatz who is both head of R&D at Porsche, and head of engine development for the entire VW Group have all been let go. More purging is expected as they work through the ranks.
jobs for everyone!!
The Dieselgate fallout is expanding to other countries, too.
South Korea is now investigating VW diesel emissions.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2015/09/21/0200000000AEN20150921008800320.html (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2015/09/21/0200000000AEN20150921008800320.html)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 24, 2015, 10:59:08 AM
jobs for everyone!!
I will apply.
"Vat is your biggest strength"
"Well, for starters I have never ordered for the destruction of the environment through cheating emissions regulations"
Quote from: Galaxy on September 24, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
The current CEO of Porsche Matthias Müller will be the new CEO of VW AG according to report. VW has also fired three more executives. The current head of R&D at VW Heinz-Jakob Neußer, the former head of R&D at VW (and current head of R&D at Audi) Ulrich Hackenberg, and Wolfgang Hatz who is both head of R&D at Porsche, and head of engine development for the entire VW Group have all been let go. More purging is expected as they work through the ranks.
Deserving sacrificial lambs to show VW is working hard to mitigate the issue, in hopes of looking proactive so the potential 18 billion dollar fine will shrink. My understanding is that VW employs pretty strong central control. This decision to circumvent the law didn't just involve some low level programmers, so the firings listed in Galaxy's note were certainly justified.
Soon the new CEO will appear on television stepping off of an airplane and waving a piece of paper proclaiming "We regard the agreement for these firings, along with the earlier CEO resignation, as symbolic of the desire of our company never to lie about evading pollution laws again".
The next piece of the puzzle is, What was the justification for doing so?
They must have/had some sort of legal double speak or idea about loophole exploitation.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2015, 12:57:43 PM
The next piece of the puzzle is, What was the justification for doing so?
They must have/had some sort of legal double speak or idea about loophole exploitation.
The stupid and irrational plan to make VW the world's largest carmaker... apparently at any cost.
There was no doubt pressure, esp. in the US where VWAG is just a footnote in the market. I find it hard to believe they had grand plans to overtly lie and try to get away with it if but for nothing else that it's easy to find out (which IMO shows the absolute failure that is government - EPA looks just as bad as VW here in not catching this). I think they had a strategy or some such to try to justify what they did. With the magnitude of the persecution their internal meetings probably said its best to try to get out in front with the sacrificial lambs rather than try to fight it.
Et tu, BMW?
God punishes all who worship the false idol that is diesel.
Some of you guys have this weirdass vendetta against diesels and hybrids that makes little sense to me
It's simple; VW wanted to sell TDI engines here post 2009, and thought they could save a few bucks by cheating the test instead of fitting SCR or any sort of exhaust after treatment.
VAG has is coming close to GM level badge engineering and parts sharing, and I'm not surprised that they took the easy way out. Last I checked, VAG is also one of the most profitable automakers out right now. They probably didn't want to make the car less profitable to fit SCR or Urea treatments, and it probably boiled out to just being cheaper to write a program to pass.
I'm almost sure cars like the Diesel Cruze have a thinner profit margin.
I think most will forget. I don't predict any sort of real value lost with current gen TDI cars.
EPA MPG standards should remain the same since the cars were in test mode when the MPG test was done.
I don't expect any real power loss or too severe drop in economy (gone from beating the hell out of the EPA figures to just matching them) but I wouldn't be surprised if the emissions equipment on the car has longevity issues.
VW might lose sales, but others might pick up the slack. Would not be surprised if GM and Fiat release another diesel car, especially an uplevel Fiat car.
I'm certain Volkswagen isn't the only car maker cheating the system in this manner.
They're just the first ones to get caught.
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 24, 2015, 04:57:57 PM
God punishes all who worship the false idol that is diesel.
The EPA is awful, but I ain't getting too aggro over this particular issue. Diesels are indeed awful and nasty for both people and the environment, and by the time they get even remotely as clean as a gasoline engine, cost, economy and performance suffer.
Autobild already retracted their stupid report about BMW. Probably after getting threatened with legal action that - given the damage to BMW's stock price yesterday - would probably bankrupt that stupid pro-VW pamphlet.
Legal action still may come anyways.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2015, 06:51:12 PM
The EPA is awful, but I ain't getting too aggro over this particular issue. Diesels are indeed awful and nasty for both people and the environment, and by the time they get even remotely as clean as a gasoline engine, cost, economy and performance suffer.
How clean is a modern sedan diesel engine compared to its gasoline brother?
From what I've read, VW has an interesting history of bribes, prostitutes, entrapment and other questionable business practices.....which goes back decades. What a complete mess.
The other question is how are other automakers that aren't effected going to take VW's crisis and turn it into an opportunity. Because you know that's already started to happen.
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 25, 2015, 02:13:55 AM
How clean is a modern sedan diesel engine compared to its gasoline brother?
Much cleaner. Diesels' downfall is particulate matter, which is highly carcinogenic and a huge health problem in major cities.
Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on September 25, 2015, 02:44:52 AM
The other question is how are other automakers that aren't effected going to take VW's crisis and turn it into an opportunity. Because you know that's already started to happen.
At least in the US, there is no real opportunity for other automakers. As I stated previously most don't buy retail a passenger diesel vehicle that isn't a VW (just like most don't buy a hybrid that isn't a Toyota) and competitor automakers know this. Even then, VW doesn't sell many diesels.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2015, 10:59:42 PM
At least in the US, there is no real opportunity for other automakers. As I stated previously most don't buy retail a passenger diesel vehicle that isn't a VW (just like most don't buy a hybrid that isn't a Toyota) and competitor automakers know this. Even then, VW doesn't sell many diesels.
I tried to get my dad to consider getting a diesel something when he was somewhat looking around two or so years ago. I thought it was a good option but he stuck with the Pilot, which is still going strong.
Good thing he did. :lol: :facepalm:
The one thing diesel has going for it, at least around here, is that it's significantly cheaper than gasoline.
I wonder what the emissions are really like with this:
(http://image.trucktrend.com/f/10462585+re0+ar0+st0/0810dp_03_z%2B2008_volkswagen_touareg_v10_tdi%2Bv10_tdi_engine.jpg)
That's a big engine.
Well, that one is going to blow smoke and oil all over the place with all those holes they cut in it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 26, 2015, 02:43:38 AM
Well, that one is going to blow smoke and oil all over the place with all those holes they cut in it.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but I wonder if the level of pollution is exactly proportional to the engine size or if it's more of a leveling off type graph. I'm guessing the former though I suppose I don't know what I base that on but it makes sense. I'm sure you know the answer.
You don't see too many W-10 diesels around but I've always thought it'd be cool to have one. The amount of torque they produce is astounding, albeit trashing the air quality in the process.
Actually, none of it is reay exactly proportional when it comes to engines; lots of different things going on.
EPA pollution standards are based on parts per million, which makes it proportional to the air that passes through the engine. Larger engines move more air per revolution, but also tend to turn slower- and then turbos increase that.
Two cars going down the highway at the same speed; one being a four cylinder 2.5 revving at 3000 and the other a 5 liter V8 revving at 1500 might be producing roughly the same amount of pollution.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 26, 2015, 05:57:32 AM
Actually, none of it is reay exactly proportional when it comes to engines; lots of different things going on.
EPA pollution standards are based on parts per million, which makes it proportional to the air that passes through the engine. Larger engines move more air per revolution, but also tend to turn slower- and then turbos increase that.
Two cars going down the highway at the same speed; one being a four cylinder 2.5 revving at 3000 and the other a 5 liter V8 revving at 1500 might be producing roughly the same amount of pollution.
I knew you'd know.
:ohyeah: :lol:
But yeah, that makes sense.
I wonder what'll happen to all those expensive Audi diesels....I dunno that there's going to be too much demand after this fiasco.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 25, 2015, 10:59:42 PM
At least in the US, there is no real opportunity for other automakers. As I stated previously most don't buy retail a passenger diesel vehicle that isn't a VW (just like most don't buy a hybrid that isn't a Toyota) and competitor automakers know this. Even then, VW doesn't sell many diesels.
VW doesn't sell many diesels??? They accounted for almost 25% of their sales in NA, and probably much closer to 50% everywhere else. That's like saying Toyota doesn't sell many hybrids.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 26, 2015, 07:24:58 AM
VW doesn't sell many diesels??? They accounted for almost 25% of their sales in NA, and probably much closer to 50% everywhere else. That's like saying Toyota doesn't sell many hybrids.
In the US market...
VWAG's market share in the US is roughly 3.5%. If 25% of their US sales are diesel, then VWAG diesels account for less than 1% of all US auto sales. I'd ballpark it at somewhere around 100,000 per year. For comparison, the Toyota Corolla alone has more than 3x that volume (as does every other model in the 10 most popular list).
The said there were upwards of 400,000 cars affected by this fiasco, but I think that's globally.
In other news, I love it when you open the hood of an Army truck and there's a notice that it's exempt from federal emissions standards......
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 26, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
The said there were upwards of 400,000 cars affected by this fiasco, but I think that's globally.
In other news, I love it when you open the hood of an Army truck and there's a notice that it's exempt from federal emissions standards......
Those are even a lot cleaner than they used to be though. Unless there are still some M35s hanging around in your unit.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 26, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
The said there were upwards of 400,000 cars affected by this fiasco, but I think that's globally.
In other news, I love it when you open the hood of an Army truck and there's a notice that it's exempt from federal emissions standards......
I've been hearing ~480,000 in the US sold from '09 to now.
Quote from: MX793 on September 26, 2015, 07:45:28 AM
VWAG's market share in the US is roughly 3.5%. If 25% of their US sales are diesel, then VWAG diesels account for less than 1% of all US auto sales. I'd ballpark it at somewhere around 100,000 per year. For comparison, the Toyota Corolla alone has more than 3x that volume (as does every other model in the 10 most popular list).
I think it is fair to say that it was a blessing in disguise that VW was not more successful in the US.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 26, 2015, 09:10:55 AM
In other news, I love it when you open the hood of an Army truck and there's a notice that it's exempt from federal emissions standards......
The german army thought they were exempt from european emission standards in Afghanistan. Until they were informed otherweise.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 26, 2015, 11:11:10 AM
The german army thought they were exempt from european emission standards in Afghanistan. Until they were informed otherweise.
LOL
Quote from: Galaxy on September 26, 2015, 11:11:10 AM
I think it is fair to say that it was a blessing in disguise that VW was not more successful in the US.
The german army thought they were exempt from european emission standards in Afghanistan. Until they were informed otherweise.
Lots of military regulations always seemed bizarre to me; we're coming with more firepower than god to blow shit up, but its OK because we've got a PZEV rating on our trucks and we never break the speed limit.
Just like about 20 years ago, the army stopped painting the tips of its ammo silver, because the silver paint was toxic if ingested. I'm sure lots of people are happier now that they're being shot with slightly less toxic bullets.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 26, 2015, 11:30:11 AM
Lots of military regulations always seemed bizarre to me; we're coming with more firepower than god to blow shit up, but its OK because we've got a PZEV rating on our trucks and we never break the speed limit.
Just like about 20 years ago, the army stopped painting the tips of its ammo silver, because the silver paint was toxic if ingested. I'm sure lots of people are happier now that they're being shot with slightly less toxic bullets.
Cheaper than stamping: "Caution: Contains Toxic chemicals. Do not place in mouth or ingest" on every bullet.
Taking the paint away probably made them cheaper, too.
Quote from: MX793 on September 26, 2015, 12:48:47 PM
Cheaper than stamping: "Caution: Contains Toxic chemicals. Do not place in mouth or ingest" on every bullet.
Taking the paint away probably made them cheaper, too.
They replaced the silver paint with white.
Hahahahaha.
I've always maintained that VW had some of the worst engineers out there, this only confirms my hypothesis. I hope this ahit company folds and Raza cries in the corner over shitty, smelly, slow, expensive German Chryslers.
Finally the wise one weighs in.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 26, 2015, 07:24:58 AM
VW doesn't sell many diesels??? They accounted for almost 25% of their sales in NA, and probably much closer to 50% everywhere else. That's like saying Toyota doesn't sell many hybrids.
That 100,000 is only 0.5% in the US, and it's spread across multiple models. No competitor is looking at let's say 30,000 Jetta TDI sales/year (not sure on actual volume, just guessing) and seeing a lot opportunity. Chevy is trying with the Cruze diesel, and it beats the Jetta TDI in every comparo I've read, esp. in mpg, and pretty much on one is buying it. Same goes for Toyota and hybrids - pretty much on one buys a hybrid that isn't a Toyota, despite many automakers trying for the last 12+ years.
The Cruze diesel isn't heavily marketed and is available only in the fully-loaded version. VW has much greater breadth of options. It's part of why Nissan failed with the Titan -- the few versions that it had got great reviews, but pickup buyers are used to a lot more choice.
Quote from: ifcar on September 27, 2015, 07:24:14 AM
The Cruze diesel isn't heavily marketed and is available only in the fully-loaded version. VW has much greater breadth of options. It's part of why Nissan failed with the Titan -- the few versions that it had got great reviews, but pickup buyers are used to a lot more choice.
Well, at least GM isn't lying and cheating to sell theirs.
Quote from: Char on September 27, 2015, 08:16:05 AM
Well, at least GM isn't lying and cheating to sell theirs.
Naturally, Government Motors couldn't possibly be the subject of any EPA investigations.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 27, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
Naturally, Government Motors couldn't possibly be the subject of any EPA investigations.
Do you have some inside knowledge of why they should be?
Quote from: Char on September 27, 2015, 11:52:15 AM
Do you have some inside knowledge of why they should be?
How much do they owe the government? What happens if they can't sell cars, how does the gubment get it's coin back??
hint: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/09/much-gm-bailout-really-cost/ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/09/much-gm-bailout-really-cost/)
(ignore the silly blaming everything on Obama)
Audi says 2.1 million TDI engines put into their A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5 models feature Volkswagen's emission decreasing software, but only about 13,000 of those units made it to United States.
Reuters reports that 1.42 of those 2.1 million cars reside in Western Europe, with over half a million sold in Germany alone. This news shouldn't really come as a surprise since Volkswagen already admitted that 11 million VW Group diesels are affected by the scandal, although the focus stayed on the EU5 Type EA189 engine so far.
While Skoda, Seat, Volkswagen and Audi has confirmed their involvement, Porsche remains in the clear for now despite using VW's diesel technology as well.
Christ
About time: City of Blight: Amid VW Scandal, Polluted Paris Asks If Time to Dump Diesel (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/city-blight-amid-vw-scandal-polluted-paris-asks-if-time-n434516).
You've got a huge vendetta against diesels and it's kinda weird
Quote from: 2o6 on September 28, 2015, 08:35:16 AM
You've got a huge vendetta against diesels and it's kinda weird
diesels stole his lunch money in 3rd grade
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x163/fairalbion/train_zpskokfjgzp.jpg)
:clap:
It really is staggering how much we polluted during the steam/industrial era.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 28, 2015, 09:43:00 AM
:clap:
It really is staggering how much we polluted during the steam/industrial era.
?? it was just wood or coal burning.
Modern powerplants still do the same, they're just not in the middle of the city
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
?? it was just wood or coal burning.
Modern powerplants still do the same, they're just not in the middle of the city
Really? I haven't seen anything like that in decades.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
?? it was just wood or coal burning.
Modern powerplants still do the same, they're just not in the middle of the city
Modern coal-fired plants are quite efficient
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidized_bed_combustion
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2015, 06:57:21 AM
How much do they owe the government? What happens if they can't sell cars, how does the gubment get it's coin back??
hint: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/09/much-gm-bailout-really-cost/ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/01/09/much-gm-bailout-really-cost/)
(ignore the silly blaming everything on Obama)
US Govt sold its last stake in GM at the end of 2013
Quote from: 2o6 on September 28, 2015, 08:35:16 AM
You've got a huge vendetta against diesels and it's kinda weird
His diesel grudge may be his most normal/rational jihad
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 28, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
?? it was just wood or coal burning.
Modern powerplants still do the same, they're just not in the middle of the city
Sure, but nowadays coal fired plants have a shit load of regulations to follow. You don't see black smoke pouring out of them.
I noticed an NYT item---the government has a formula to estimate how many people have died due to VW's deception.
I think that is a bit much.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 28, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
About time: City of Blight: Amid VW Scandal, Polluted Paris Asks If Time to Dump Diesel (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/city-blight-amid-vw-scandal-polluted-paris-asks-if-time-n434516).
Nope, that predates the VW problem by many months
Quote from: Char on September 27, 2015, 11:52:15 AM
Do you have some inside knowledge of why they should be?
Some times back Cadillac was caught cheating on emissions. 470,000 cars were effected and they were only fined less than $50 Millions. Now they are pretending up to $18 Billion from VW for a similar case and numbers.
Quote from: AltinD on September 29, 2015, 07:58:04 AM
Some times back Cadillac was caught cheating on emissions. 470,000 cars were effected and they were only fined less than $50 Millions. Now they are pretending up to $18 Billion from VW for a similar case and numbers.
That was 20 years ago, and with emissions much closer to the legal limit.
Quote from: ifcar on September 29, 2015, 08:07:42 AM
That was 20 years ago, and with emissions much closer to the legal limit.
I also don't think the fines are fixed. There is some level of discretion. Caddy may have negotiated lower fines than the max penalty, and VW may also not be held to the maximum penalty. Note that people are saying fine of "up to" 18 billion. That is a potential worst case scenario, not necessarily the final ruling.
I think though the level of deceipt in this case will hurt VW. Intention means a lot
Quote from: MX793 on September 29, 2015, 08:27:44 AM
I also don't think the fines are fixed. There is some level of discretion. Caddy may have negotiated lower fines than the max penalty, and VW may also not be held to the maximum penalty. Note that people are saying fine of "up to" 18 billion. That is a potential worst case scenario, not necessarily the final ruling.
Right, based on a max fine of $37,500 per affected car -- which may be a higher cap than was allowed in 1995.
Also, I was reading that Cadillac's $45 million fine was a record high up to that point, so the same argument could have been made then that it was unprecedented. Plus, that level of fine didn't discourage VW.
Quote from: ifcar on September 29, 2015, 08:32:23 AM
Right, based on a max fine of $37,500 per affected car -- which may be a higher cap than was allowed in 1995.
Also, I was reading that Cadillac's $45 million fine was a record high up to that point, so the same argument could have been made then that it was unprecedented. Plus, that level of fine didn't discourage VW.
I'd rather see an owner buyback, based on pre-scandal blue book
retail values, than the EPA padding its bank account with fines.
Well the city of Wolfsburg has reacted quickly. They have put a stop to any new hires, and have stopped all investments. Wolfsburg itself is debt free (some of the institutions are not however) so they should be relatively okay, if they stay thirfty for a while. Wolfsburg gets someting like 50% of it's tax revenue from VW AG.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 29, 2015, 08:43:01 AM
I'd rather see an owner buyback, based on pre-scandal blue book retail values, than the EPA padding its bank account with fines.
As an owner of a TDI, that would be my preference, although I doubt that will happen. They've already announced a 'retrofit' and mentioned that not all TDIs have the hack 'activated'.
Maybe they could just set it up so when you put the DSG in 'drive' you get full emissions control and 'sport' mode turns them off. Like the turbo button on an old x86 computer.
I would like to see the EPA keep the money and step up their budget to make sure things like this don't keep happening.
And I hope VW goes under and someone buys them out - the only thing that would make them good would be to build something that isn't a VW.
Quote from: Jon? on September 29, 2015, 12:36:03 PM
Maybe they could just set it up so when you put the DSG in 'drive' you get full emissions control and 'sport' mode turns them off. Like the turbo button on an old x86 computer.
LOL those turbo buttons never got turned off, and neither would anyone who noticed the 'sport' mode gave more power/ better mpgeez
Quote from: Char on September 29, 2015, 12:42:39 PM
I would like to see the EPA keep the money and step up their budget to make sure things like this don't keep happening.
And I hope VW goes under and someone buys them out - the only thing that would make them good would be to build something that isn't a VW.
LOL It wasn't even the EPA who figured this out.
And maybe you need therapy for the vw-trauma you've experienced
I'm pretty sure the EPA doesn't get the fines sent to them directly anyway. Could be mistaken though.
Quote from: Jon? on September 29, 2015, 12:51:31 PM
I'm pretty sure the EPA doesn't get the fines sent to them directly anyway. Could be mistaken though.
Sure they do. Then they pay off their lobbyists, and whatever's left goes to the end-of-the-fiscal-year pizza party. Looks like this year's will have an open bar and strippers.
I see that a bunch of Seats are similarly equipped.
Quote from: Jon? on September 29, 2015, 12:51:31 PM
I'm pretty sure the EPA doesn't get the fines sent to them directly anyway. Could be mistaken though.
It will help recoup all of the Cash for Clunkers rebate money that was paid out for people to buy fuel efficient VW diesels. I read an article stating that over 50 million dollars in "green vehicle" rebates were given out for the purchase of diesel VWs.
Quote from: MX793 on September 29, 2015, 04:59:04 PM
I read an article stating that over 50 million dollars in "green vehicle" rebates were given out for the purchase of diesel VWs.
That is positively glorious.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 29, 2015, 05:04:45 PM
That is positively glorious.
I knew you'd get a kick out of that.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 29, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
LOL It wasn't even the EPA who figured this out.
And maybe you need therapy for the vw-trauma you've experienced
Because the EPA is underfunded.
It's not the EPA that VW is a bunch of failures.
Quote from: Char on September 29, 2015, 09:27:31 PM
Because the EPA is underfunded.
LOL give them all the money in the universe and the EPA wouldn't have figured out VW's scam.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 30, 2015, 06:30:40 AM
LOL give them all the money in the universe and the EPA wouldn't have figured out VW's scam.
Why would that be? Because as soon as someone holds a federal job, the become automatically incompetent?
Quote from: Char on September 30, 2015, 08:10:00 AM
Why would that be? Because as soon as someone holds a federal job, the become automatically incompetent?
no but they do the work they are assigned.
I have a feeling that there's going to be some backdoor conversations between Obama, who appoints the head of the EPA, and Merkel. Germany is one of the U.S. biggest and most important allies and VW is by far the biggest German company.
There's going to be a large fine but it won't be 18 billion dollars.
It's gonna go down like this:
Obama: You've been doing a great job. Keeping our environment clean. Just want to reiterate how important Germany is as an ally of ours. Keep up the good work. You've got a bright future.
Gina McCarthy (Administrator of the EPA): Thank you very much Mr. President. It's an honor to serve.
I don't think it's going to be that serious at all.
Quote from: MX793 on September 29, 2015, 04:59:04 PM
It will help recoup all of the Cash for Clunkers rebate money that was paid out for people to buy fuel efficient VW diesels. I read an article stating that over 50 million dollars in "green vehicle" rebates were given out for the purchase of diesel VWs.
Wasn't that MPG related, rather tha emissions related?
Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2015, 09:19:37 AM
Wasn't that MPG related, rather tha emissions related?
Yes, and as long as the new vehicle got more than 22 MPG combined, you got the rebate; more efficient vehicles didnt garner more cash; so most of the Jetta TDI's competitors were eligible anyways.
It is logical however, that some of the cheater VWs were bought under the cash for clunkers program: which by all measurements was a miserable failure.
Quote from: veeman on September 30, 2015, 09:03:34 AM
I have a feeling that there's going to be some backdoor conversations between Obama, who appoints the head of the EPA, and Merkel. Germany is one of the U.S. biggest and most important allies and VW is by far the biggest German company.
There's going to be a large fine but it won't be 18 billion dollars.
It's gonna go down like this:
Obama: You've been doing a great job. Keeping our environment clean. Just want to reiterate how important Germany is as an ally of ours. Keep up the good work. You've got a bright future.
Gina McCarthy (Administrator of the EPA): Thank you very much Mr. President. It's an honor to serve.
I fully expect some horse trading behind the doors. That will probably include Winterkorn (or whoeever, 12 additional People have been suspended today) becoming the new neighbour of Bernie Madoff. Plus maybe the EUs investigation into Google breaking privacy laws and what not will be swept
under the rug.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2015, 09:19:08 AM
I don't think it's going to be that serious at all.
How do you define serious? This will be a 2 digit billion bill, after lawsuits and all.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 30, 2015, 09:19:08 AM
I don't think it's going to be that serious at all.
Seriously?
This is a shitshow of epic proportions.
I think not serious to the pont where the heads of state get involved is a relatively safe assumption. Then again, our current head of state seems fit to get involved in school suspensions and whatever else be thinks will gar er him some spotlight time, so who knows?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 30, 2015, 10:35:06 AM
I think not serious to the pont where the heads of state get involved is a relatively safe assumption. Then again, our current head of state seems fit to get involved in school suspensions and whatever else be thinks will gar er him some spotlight time, so who knows?
+1
What could happen to VW is as bad as what happened to GM, Ford, and Chrysler during the recession. It took the U.S. Govt to save the Big 3's collective ass. It will take the German govt to save VW's ass. Merkel for sure has people giving her info on VW's exact financial status. She will do whatever it takes to make sure there aren't large scale German layoffs.
Quote from: veeman on September 30, 2015, 11:01:36 AM
What could happen to VW is as bad as what happened to GM, Ford, and Chrysler during the recession. It took the U.S. Govt to save the Big 3's collective ass. It will take the German govt to save VW's ass. Merkel for sure has people giving her info on VW's exact financial status. She will do whatever it takes to make sure there aren't large scale German layoffs.
Ford never took a bailout, but your point stands. Heads of State absolutely are involved.
Quote from: Char on September 30, 2015, 08:10:00 AM
Why would that be? Because as soon as someone holds a federal job, the become automatically incompetent?
The EPA has thousands of STEM employees yet they couldn't uncover what some guy and a few students so easily did?
The real news (or not really, confirmation to those who don't ignore these things) is the gross incompetence of government which looks a heckuva lot worse the VW trying to run its scam.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 30, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
Ford never took a bailout, but your point stands. Heads of State absolutely are involved.
Ford most certainly did, to the tune of ~$6B in loans in 2009.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 11:35:55 AM
Ford most certainly did, to the tune of ~$6B in loans in 2009.
link?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 11:29:59 AM
The real news (or not really, confirmation to those who don't ignore these things) is the gross incompetence of government which looks a heckuva lot worse the VW trying to run its scam.
which is why I don't want government more involved in healthcare, education, etc...
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 11:29:59 AM
The EPA has thousands of STEM employees yet they couldn't uncover what some guy and a few students so easily did?
The real news (or not really, confirmation to those who don't ignore these things) is the gross incompetence of government which looks a heckuva lot worse the VW trying to run its scam.
You are forgetting the fact the EPA doesn't actually conduct most emissions testing themselves. Rather, manufacturers are allowed to "self-certify" their cars meet the EPA standards. This is a prime example why private enterprise can not be trusted. If the EPA were to conduct all the test themselves, the chances of something like this happening would be greatly reduced.
Quote from: Madman on September 30, 2015, 02:16:11 PM
You are forgetting the fact the EPA doesn't actually conduct most emissions testing themselves. Rather, manufacturers are allowed to "self-certify" their cars meet the EPA standards. This is a prime example why private enterprise can not be trusted. If the EPA were to conduct all the test themselves, the chances of something like this happening would be greatly reduced.
Given the way this defeat device code worked, it's doubtful the EPA would have found it without significantly altering their test procedures. The group that uncovered it found it because they were conducting testing differently from the EPA procedure.
Quote from: Madman on September 30, 2015, 02:16:11 PM
If the EPA were to conduct all the test themselves, the chances of something like this happening would be greatly reduced.
LOL
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 11:35:55 AM
Ford most certainly did, to the tune of ~$6B in loans in 2009.
Not the same thing.
Quote from: Madman on September 30, 2015, 02:16:11 PM
You are forgetting the fact the EPA doesn't actually conduct most emissions testing themselves. Rather, manufacturers are allowed to "self-certify" their cars meet the EPA standards. This is a prime example why private enterprise can not be trusted. If the EPA were to conduct all the test themselves, the chances of something like this happening would be greatly reduced.
Test engineering 101 = design against faults, intentional or otherwise. The EPA looks terrible and incompetent to anyone who knows anything about testing.
Regulation exists first and foremost to be gamed by the Smart Guys
TM. It is glorious.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 02:29:12 PM
Test engineering 101 = design against faults, intentional or otherwise. The EPA looks terrible and incompetent to anyone who knows anything about testing.
Regulation exists first and foremost to be gamed by the Smart GuysTM. It is glorious.
Yeah, VW were really smart! :rolleyes:
That's why this debacle will cost them dearly.
Quote from: FoMoJo on September 30, 2015, 02:25:33 PM
Not the same thing.
How is government giving loan to someone who otherwise couldn't get it not a bailout? Government (i.e., WtP) pay for the risk, lost opportunity cost and below-market interest rate.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 02:44:00 PM
How is government giving loan to someone who otherwise couldn't get it not a bailout? Government (i.e., WtP) pay for the risk, lost opportunity cost and below-market interest rate.
The government made the loans available to all automakers as a 'green' initiative. Ford didn't need a 'bailout' as did GM and Chrysler in order to prevent them from going under. You know this but diehard GM fans cannot accept the fact that Ford was the only major US automaker that managed its finances during a very critical economical conundrum.
Didn't "need" is correct hence, no "bailout". Using available funds that are available at reasonable rates and payback time is smart business sense. Ford used the money towards developing their EcoBoost programme. As for the new Camaro, the GM fans can have it. Nothing really new there. ;)
Perhaps didn't "need" but $6B is a lot, and Ford used the money same as did GM and Chrysler - to retool plants and design new cars.
I don't think GM fans care either way - new Camaro is about to go on sale ;).
The ability for Ford to "manage" its finances (being closely held so as to leverage assets to get the private loans) is the same reason why it struggled/s with product and approaches to the market now and throughout its history.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 30, 2015, 03:21:15 PM
Perhaps didn't "need" but $6B is a lot, and Ford used the money same as did GM and Chrysler - to retool plants and design new cars.
I don't think GM fans care either way - new Camaro is about to go on sale ;).
The ability for Ford to "manage" its finances (being closely held so as to leverage assets to get the private loans) is the same reason why it struggled/s with product and approaches to the market now and throughout its history.
Not sure why the sequence was altered :confused:.
We know that each and all of domestics 'struggled' with product during certain periods. However, during the golden eras...now for example...there is enough impressive product from each of the manufacturers to satisfy their fans...although neither GM or Chrysler could match Ford (for very long) during the raucous days of the '50s and '60s. The light-weight 427 FE was a diamond among the lumps of coal produced by the other two. :ohyeah:
Lol gm fanboiism
Hoo boy... :facepalm:
http://shiftcarblog.kinja.com/here-s-what-happened-when-i-tried-to-sell-my-tdi-scanda-1733924086 (http://shiftcarblog.kinja.com/here-s-what-happened-when-i-tried-to-sell-my-tdi-scanda-1733924086)
He's baiting, I think he's full of shit and it's a Jalopnik style of article. Again
How did he pay 32k for a Diesel Jetta?
A base TDI non wagon is still 18k private party trade.
Also, Carfax low balls people all the time. That's why carfax is like that.
And of course they won't take a trade for that car right now.
Over the weekend I went to two dealerships with my 2011 TDI to see what their reaction would be to a trade.
The VW dealership offered me pretty much full KBB wholesale on it. I happen to live in a state that does not test diesel emissions, so perhaps that made them less skittish.
I swung by a Cadillac dealership, test drove an ATS and they lowballed the trade, citing the impending recall.
I'm seeing local Autotrader ads for my car, with higher mileage and roughly the same features, going for between $14-16k. Whether or not they'll sell is another question.
Quote from: Jon? on October 01, 2015, 10:06:08 AM
Over the weekend I went to two dealerships with my 2011 TDI to see what their reaction would be to a trade.
The VW dealership offered me pretty much full KBB wholesale on it. I happen to live in a state that does not test diesel emissions, so perhaps that made them less skittish.
I swung by a Cadillac dealership, test drove an ATS and they lowballed the trade, citing the impending recall.
I'm seeing local Autotrader ads for my car, with higher mileage and roughly the same features, going for between $14-16k. Whether or not they'll sell is another question.
Car dealerships are opportunistic. They're reliant on the dumbass who's going to panic trade their TDI, low ball them, put them into a shittier car that has been in-house financed, then sell their TDI at normal market rate (which will be minimally affected by the TDI fiasco)
Quote from: 2o6 on October 01, 2015, 10:08:13 AM
Car dealerships are opportunistic. They're reliant on the dumbass who's going to panic trade their TDI, low ball them, put them into a shittier car that has been in-house financed, then sell their TDI at normal market rate (which will be minimally affected by the TDI fiasco)
truth
Yeah, dude sounds like a moron (though that was probably the intent), and not only because all of that money and time burned in leasing. Jesus.
Quote from: Jon? on October 01, 2015, 10:06:08 AM
I swung by a Cadillac dealership, test drove an ATS and they lowballed the trade, citing the impending recall.
You should have asked for a less than invoice price for the ATS, citing the inevitable recalls. :lol:
Quote from: 2o6 on October 01, 2015, 09:56:32 AM
He's baiting, I think he's full of shit and it's a Jalopnik style of article. Again
How did he pay 32k for a Diesel Jetta?
A base TDI non wagon is still 18k private party trade.
Also, Carfax low balls people all the time. That's why carfax is like that.
And of course they won't take a trade for that car right now.
It was only 30K, which lines up with the as tested price I've found in the press of loaded up models. I just priced out a 1.8T Golf SportWagen at over $32K on VW's website. Before they pulled them, a loaded out Golf SportWagen TDI would run $34K.
Quote from: CLKid on October 01, 2015, 04:47:21 PM
You should have asked for a less than invoice price for the ATS, citing the inevitable recalls. :lol:
Actually, since they already have their 2016s on the lot they were pushing the 2015s, so you're accurate about the 'below invoice'.
I view recalls as opportunities to visit the dealership, sample the coffee and danishes and sit in their latest offerings. Like a day spa without the towels.
Its the joke that never gets old..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA&feature=youtu.be)
Or maybe it does? :lol:
Quote from: Madman on October 02, 2015, 09:35:35 AM
Its the joke that never gets old..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA&feature=youtu.be)
Or maybe it does? :lol:
With VW it is ironically fitting. I think they timed the text well with his gestures.
Quote from: CLKid on October 01, 2015, 04:47:21 PM
You should have asked for a less than invoice price for the ATS, citing the inevitable recalls. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm. More is coming out. It's looking like it was an internal scam - VWAG's top power train engineers couldn't deliver the required emissions for the desired economy/performance targets so the gamed the tests to do so.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 05, 2015, 05:58:43 PM
Hmmm. More is coming out. It's looking like it was an internal scam - VWAG's top power train engineers couldn't deliver the required emissions for the desired economy/performance targets so the gamed the tests to do so.
I haven't been following this thread, but what else would it have been? I assumed this was issue the whole time.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on October 05, 2015, 06:25:28 PM
I haven't been following this thread, but what else would it have been? I assumed this was issue the whole time.
I take "internal scam" to mean that the folks in powertrain knew about it, but higher ups were completely in the dark.
Highly convenient spin for the higher ups.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 06, 2015, 06:29:46 AM
Highly convenient spin for the higher ups.
+1
Shit always rolls downhill.
Quote from: MX793 on October 05, 2015, 06:32:51 PM
I take "internal scam" to mean that the folks in powertrain knew about it, but higher ups were completely in the dark.
The letter that Bosch sent to VW makes that a bit hard to believe.
Quote from: Galaxy on October 06, 2015, 11:50:07 AM
The letter that Bosch sent to VW makes that a bit hard to believe.
linky?
this is so much fun to read about.....
Quote from: Galaxy on October 06, 2015, 11:50:07 AM
The letter that Bosch sent to VW makes that a bit hard to believe.
Who did the letter go to? Was it sent to the CEO or just folks within the powertrain group?
I was referring to this.
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says (http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says)
Quote from: Galaxy on October 06, 2015, 03:49:33 PM
I was referring to this.
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says (http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says)
For testing purposes, it would seem that they would need just a handful of these devices. That they must have ordered millions of them from Bosch should have given a bit more concern to Bosch than simply writing a letter saying that they shouldn't use the devices in production vehicles.
Seems Bosch was just covering their ass for the inevitable...unless they too thought that it would never be discovered.
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 06, 2015, 04:16:41 PM
For testing purposes, it would seem that they would need just a handful of these devices. That they must have ordered millions of them from Bosch should have given a bit more concern to Bosch than simply writing a letter saying that they shouldn't use the devices in production vehicles.
Seems Bosch was just covering their ass for the inevitable...unless they too thought that it would never be discovered.
It's software, not a physical device that VW needed to order 11 million copies of.
Quote from: ifcar on October 06, 2015, 04:27:52 PM
It's software, not a physical device that VW needed to order 11 million copies of.
Exactly. Unless they needed to purchase a license for each application of the software, which is highly unlikely.
VW asking Bosch to write them a piece of code that makes the engine control module behave differently from its original design for testing or development purposes isn't that unusual. And such technical exchanges between subcontractor and client seldom go to the highest levels. Bosch's response of "here's the code you wanted, BTW this would be illegal to use in any production vehicle" likely didn't get seen by anyone outside of the powertrain group to whom they sent the software.
Quote from: ifcar on October 06, 2015, 04:27:52 PM
It's software, not a physical device that VW needed to order 11 million copies of.
There was mention of 'components' delivered to VW from Bosch, in the article, that were at the centre of the issue. Software can only do so much and, in a situation such as this, it would seem to require peripheral components in order for the software to be able to recognize and react to a situation.
measuring the power loss
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html)
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 06, 2015, 05:26:37 PM
measuring the power loss
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-power-vws-cheating-194429238.html)
Only 2 peak hp, and 15 at some point in the low range.
Lol..vw should have let it ride like that
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 06, 2015, 05:05:28 PM
There was mention of 'components' delivered to VW from Bosch, in the article, that were at the centre of the issue. Software can only do so much and, in a situation such as this, it would seem to require peripheral components in order for the software to be able to recognize and react to a situation.
The components themselves did not make up a "cheating" device. VW, like a number of other automakers, sources engine/vehicle control components from Bosch for use in their vehicles. Things like ignition systems, fuel management control modules, ABS control modules, stability control, etc... In this case, VW was using Bosch for their fuel management and exhaust gas treatment control components. At VW's request, Bosch wrote some special software (presumably for testing purposes) for those controllers which resulted in the "bypass device". This is something of a misnomer because the "device" is not some separate piece of non-essential hardware installed in the car to cheat the emissions test, but rather a piece of code that altered the function of normal automotive components such that they behaved differently in an emissions test environment so that the car would pass the test.
Quote from: MX793 on October 06, 2015, 07:30:24 PM
The components themselves did not make up a "cheating" device. VW, like a number of other automakers, sources engine/vehicle control components from Bosch for use in their vehicles. Things like ignition systems, fuel management control modules, ABS control modules, stability control, etc... In this case, VW was using Bosch for their fuel management and exhaust gas treatment control components. At VW's request, Bosch wrote some special software (presumably for testing purposes) for those controllers which resulted in the "bypass device". This is something of a misnomer because the "device" is not some separate piece of non-essential hardware installed in the car to cheat the emissions test, but rather a piece of code that altered the function of normal automotive components such that they behaved differently in an emissions test environment so that the car would pass the test.
I'd bet Bosch never thought that code would be put into cars sold to consumers.
Then there's this.
Volkswagen's troubles in the US could be deepening
Business Insider
By Mohammed Hadi
5 hours ago
Volkswagen's troubles in the US could be deepening after Bloomberg News reported that the company's death and injury claims were substantially lower than any other automaker.
Bloomberg's Jeff Green and Jeff Plungis cite a study of government data by financial advisory firm Stout Risius Ross Inc., which shows that the largest automaker's reported death and injury claims at a rate that was 9 times higher than Volkswagen did. In other words, VW's numbers are suspiciously low.
This has nothing to do with the emissions scandal that's currently engulfing VW. (About 11 million cars worldwide, mostly in Europe, are affected and with poisonous emissions as high as 40 times over the U.S. limit.)
Other carmakers have been caught under reporting death and injury claims. Honda was fined $70 million by US regulators earlier this year for the same reason.
There's no evidence in Bloomberg's story that suggests Volkswagen is deliberately underreporting claims, but the numbers are low enough that some people are questioning their accuracy.
Volkswagen's US spokeswoman declined to comment to Bloomberg. Business Insider has separately reached out for a response.
Meanwhile VW's US head is blaming "a couple of software engineers" for all the emissions cheating. Note that he didn't say higher ups weren't aware of the software, only that if wasn't a corporate decision and the board didn't approve it. All that sounds suspiciously like a classic "plausible deniability" set up.
Top U.S. VW Exec Blames 'A Couple of Software Engineers' for Scandal
by Associated Press and Reuters
Volkwagen's top executive in the U.S. told lawmakers on Thursday that cheating on emissions with the use of software in diesel cars was not a corporate decision, but something that "individuals did."
"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," Michael Horn, VW's U.S. head, said about the software code designed to cheat on emissions tests, which the company put in diesel cars since 2009.
"This was not a corporate decision. There was no board meeting that approved this," he added later, under questioning by members of the House of Representatives Oversight and Investigations panel.
Lawmakers were skeptical of the explanation from Horn, who testified under oath that three unidentified employees had been suspended since the EPA announced Sept. 18 that VW rigged its diesel cars to bypass U.S. emissions standards for clean air.
Rep. Chris Collins, R-N.Y., said he could not accept VW's characterization that "this was the work of a couple of rogue engineers," adding: "This didn't happen in one day." Collins, an engineer, said it appears that VW executives "are complicit in a massive cover-up at the highest levels that continues to this day."
Turning to another matter, Horn said Volkswagen does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million U.S. cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers.
"We know we can fix these vehicles to meet emissions standards," Horn said, adding that a potential fix would likely have a "slight impact on performance. One or two miles of top speed might be missing."
Earlier, Horn offered a "sincere apology" for the scandal after committee members said the company violated the public's trust.
All this stuff is pretty yawntastic. Everybody (media) is just repeating themselves at this point. It's not causing people to crash and burn.
Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi's cars are shown to emit significantly more NOx pollution on the road than in regulatory tests
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.
"The issue is a systemic one" across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. NOx
More: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row)
Death to diesels!
This is seriously like Cougspocolypse coming to real life. :lol:
Ah ha! I knew it couldn't just be VW. The entire industry is fighting against unrealistic emissions standards by saying fuck it.
Fucking VW.
Quote from: Morris Minor on October 10, 2015, 11:43:47 AM
Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi's cars are shown to emit significantly more NOx pollution on the road than in regulatory tests
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.
"The issue is a systemic one" across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. NOx
More: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row)
Assisine. Of course cars emit more when driven in the real-world, the test is a just a standardized cycle. Same reason "your mileage may vary".
Quote from: 93JC on October 10, 2015, 12:38:19 PM
Assisine. Of course cars emit more when driven in the real-world, the test is a just a standardized cycle. Same reason "your mileage may vary".
Yeah. Accelerating at 3.3mph/second isn't gonna be the same as Joe Blow flooring it out of a stop light.
I saw a blurb somewhere that Samsung is now under investigation for gaming electronics regulatory power consumption tests ;).
Like I said previously, practically speaking, regulation exits to be gamed, thusly logically speaking, many are doing it, not just VW and it is glorious.
The fairy tale outcome would be that WtP recognize the insidiousness of regulation and ban the lot of it, but no, WtP are too distracted with our dope and welfare to care about it (or wars, or domestic spying, or rampant rights violations, etc.).
So your answer is to have no regulation and pray the "market" will magic the problems away?
Quote from: Char on October 11, 2015, 03:03:18 PM
So your answer is to have no regulation and pray the "market" will magic the problems away?
Welcome to Cougs Fantasyland!
So you Lefties still don't feel guilty about all this gaming of your precious regulations, and not just VW (and likely much if not all the rest of the auto industry) - Big Finance, Big Oil, Big Tech, Big Pharma, etc.?
It's glorious I tell you, glorious!
Quote from: GoCougs on October 11, 2015, 07:39:31 PM
So you Lefties still don't feel guilty about all this gaming of your precious regulations, and not just VW (and likely much if not all the rest of the auto industry) - Big Finance, Big Oil, Big Tech, Big Pharma, etc.?
It's glorious I tell you, glorious!
You complain so much about diesels being allowed to create smog in Paris, yet you're also criticizing the U.S. for having stricter emissions regulations. What should be done instead? Let each individual car buyer decide how much they care about everyone else's air? It certainly didn't stop the French from buying cars that pollute more.
Quote from: ifcar on October 11, 2015, 07:46:00 PM
You complain so much about diesels being allowed to create smog in Paris, yet you're also criticizing the U.S. for having stricter emissions regulations. What should be done instead? Let each individual car buyer decide how much they care about everyone else's air? It certainly didn't stop the French from buying cars that pollute more.
The free market is the swiftest and harshest regulator of all, and the beauty is it's hard to predict what form that would take. The market decides - not me, not you, and not the fetid heel of government. My hunch is something along the lines of how an HOA works.
On absolute thing that is known WRT this topic is that there are so many distortions on so many levels - from global warmology to irrational amounts of consumer credit to a ginormous corporatist auto industry that simply removing one distortion is no better or no worse than letting it stand.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 11, 2015, 08:29:34 PM
The free market is the swiftest and harshest regulator of all, and the beauty is it's hard to predict what form that would take. The market decides - not me, not you, and not the fetid heel of government. My hunch is something along the lines of how an HOA works.
On absolute thing that is known WRT this topic is that there are so many distortions on so many levels - from global warmology to irrational amounts of consumer credit to a ginormous corporatist auto industry that simply removing one distortion is no better or no worse than letting it stand.
LOL. HOA's are the WORST form of power-hungry/corrupt government, only at a much smaller scale.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 12, 2015, 07:48:25 AM
LOL. HOA's are the WORST form of power-hungry/corrupt government, only at a much smaller scale.
+1
Quote from: Rockraven on October 12, 2015, 07:48:25 AM
LOL. HOA's are the WORST form of power-hungry/corrupt government, only at a much smaller scale.
Like governments, HOA's depend a lot on what the rules are as well as who is running them. If you elect someone to your HOA who fundamentally believes that all HOA's are inherently bad/immoral, don't be surprised when your HOA is run badly.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 12, 2015, 02:09:10 PM
Like governments, HOA's depend a lot on what the rules are as well as who is running them. If you elect someone to your HOA who fundamentally believes that all HOA's are inherently bad/immoral, don't be surprised when your HOA is run badly.
No, the problem with those is that they attract the worst sort of duplicitous "I know what's good for you" busybodies. The problem is that they think they are helping.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 12, 2015, 02:45:11 PM
No, the problem with those is that they attract the worst sort of duplicitous "I know what's good for you" busybodies. The problem is that they think they are helping.
What are you saying "no" to?
I said:
QuoteHOA's depend a lot on what the rules are as well as who is running them
Are you saying all HOA's are bad everywhere (which seems impossible considering how popular they are) or that HOA's cannot have bad rules as well as bad people running them?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 12, 2015, 02:56:33 PM
What are you saying "no" to?
I said:
Are you saying all HOA's are bad everywhere (which seems impossible considering how popular they are) or that HOA's cannot have bad rules as well as bad people running them?
I'm saying, no; its not because they think HOAs are immoral; its because they honestly think they are trying to do good.
But thanks for spending the time bolding and re-editing your own post. I find it hard to read words that aren't in bold type.
And yes, every time I complain about anything, always take that as universal statement without exception. This is after all, the Internet.
My brother just called me about his GFs car, it's a 2009 Passat.
Apparently the morons at VW removed the parking brake handle and replaced it with a button...apparently a failure prone button. (Google it) And what is worse, VW's answer to this? Tow it to the dealer.
What an epic pile of shit each and every single one of these cars are: no trolling, completely fucking serious. These are quite possibly the worst 'engineered' hipsteresque douchebag cars.
I really like the new Jetta base model with the 1.4-turbo. Almost everything about it except the active braking system bullshit, and that it is $18K.
I really like the GTI. Want to drive soon. VW might need my $.
If I had to spend more money on a VW, I think I'd go straight to the GTD... that is, if is sold here. Other than that, Golf R all the way.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 12, 2015, 07:50:22 PM
If I had to spend more money on a VW, I think I'd go straight to the GTD... that is, if is sold here. Other than that, Golf R all the way.
The GTD does everything worse than a GTI, that makes no sense...then again, buying a VW doesn't either.
As far as I know, my step-sister's 07? ish Rabbit has been problem free. :huh: Anecdotal though, I know.
Lol yeah, it was definitely a 2007 because it actually came with the guitar.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/03/vw-gives-customers-the-axe-electric-guitar-comes-with-every-veh/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/03/vw-gives-customers-the-axe-electric-guitar-comes-with-every-veh/)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 12, 2015, 03:25:18 PM
I'm saying, no; its not because they think HOAs are immoral; its because they honestly think they are trying to do good.
But thanks for spending the time bolding and re-editing your own post. I find it hard to read words that aren't in bold type.
And yes, every time I complain about anything, always take that as universal statement without exception. This is after all, the Internet.
Yeah, I don't know WTF he was saying either
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 12, 2015, 03:25:18 PM
I'm saying, no; its not because they think HOAs are immoral; its because they honestly think they are trying to do good.
But thanks for spending the time bolding and re-editing your own post. I find it hard to read words that aren't in bold type.
And yes, every time I complain about anything, always take that as universal statement without exception. This is after all, the Internet.
I still don't understand what you are saying "no" to.
It seems like you are saying the same thing I said, which is the people running HOA's can make HOA's bad. But then again you said "no" so I am misunderstanding something.
And I have no idea what your last two sentences here are even referring to.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on October 13, 2015, 03:07:07 AM
Yeah, I don't know WTF he was saying either
OK. :huh:
I am just confused at this point. I am not sure how what I said was unclear.
I am saying that HOA's are not inherently bad (maybe I could have been clearer on that).
I am also saying that HOA's can be run badly. The two main reasons that can make them bad are 1. Crappy rules and 2. Crappy people running the HOA.
Soup DeVille then replied with the answer of "no" (which would normally mean he is disagreeing with what I said), but then made an example that perfectly fits in to example #2.
So I am trying to figure out exactly what he is disagreeing with. The only other things I said were that not all HOA's are bad (which he can disagree with of course, but then his post didn't actually say anything about it) and that crappy rules can make an HOA bad (which again he can disagree with, of course).
Quote from: Char on October 12, 2015, 05:31:01 PM
My brother just called me about his GFs car, it's a 2009 Passat.
Apparently the morons at VW removed the parking brake handle and replaced it with a button...apparently a failure prone button. (Google it) And what is worse, VW's answer to this? Tow it to the dealer.
What an epic pile of shit each and every single one of these cars are: no trolling, completely fucking serious. These are quite possibly the worst 'engineered' hipsteresque douchebag cars.
Tell me which other brands have push-button parking brakes. (hint it's not only VW)
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1050069_electronic-parking-brakes-whats-the-point (http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1050069_electronic-parking-brakes-whats-the-point)
Wow, I can barely speak with all these words being shoved in my mouth.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 13, 2015, 06:35:20 AM
Wow, I can barely speak with all these words being shoved in my mouth.
Don't choke on 'em!
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 13, 2015, 06:35:20 AM
Wow, I can barely speak with all these words being shoved in my mouth.
You are a weird dude. I was just trying to figure out what you were saying "no" to. You said no to...something...? I just cannot tell what.
Its not that big of a deal, was just curious. :huh:
I am also not sure how any words got shoved in your mouth. :huh:
What the fuck are you guys even arguing about HOAs so much for. This thread is for VW bashing.
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 13, 2015, 11:53:24 AM
What the fuck are you guys even arguing about HOAs so much for. This thread is for VW bashing.
I didn't even know I was arguing. :huh:
This thread got weird, but I guess it is CarSpin, after all. :lol:
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 13, 2015, 11:53:24 AM
What the fuck are you guys even arguing about HOAs so much for. This thread is for VW bashing.
Because the only rational regulation is the free market, and an easily-understood manner and method of it is something along the lines of an HOA (though I'd add also things like buying shares in a corporation and the NCAA would likely be in play too).
What is an HOA if not a very small scale government?
HOA = voluntary contract + private property/private rules = antithesis of government.
So, as a first (somewhat) concrete result of this dieselgate VW announced that the Phaeton II planned for year end 2016, beginning of 2017 will be pushed back, and relaunched as an all electric car. Most likely based on Porsche's 800 Volt technology (Mission-E).
Not sure what the are going to do with the Glass Factory in the mean time. I doubt that the Phaeton I will survive much longer.
The MQB plattform will get a plug in hybrid/electric kitt called MEB.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 01:54:41 PM
HOA = voluntary contract + private property/private rules = antithesis of government.
It's not voluntary if you live in a neighborhood governed by said HOA. It's voluntary inasmuch as you can voluntarily choose to live elsewhere if you don't like the HOA.
You're free to choose not to live in a country if you don't like its government.
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2015, 03:33:05 PM
It's not voluntary if you live in a neighborhood governed by said HOA. It's voluntary inasmuch as you can voluntarily choose to live elsewhere if you don't like the HOA.
You're free to choose not to live in a country if you don't like its government.
It's 100% voluntarily to chose to live in a neighborhood with an HOA. In fact sometimes you have to choose to try really hard (and many do), such as established neighborhoods or NYC co-ops.
If true capitalism is an HOA, then count me the fuck out.
Quote from: Rupert on October 13, 2015, 05:00:15 PM
If true capitalism is an HOA, then count me the fuck out.
Don't give up hope yet.
"True" capitalism is many things - HOA or avoiding HOA like the plague - remember, it's private property = private rules which means YOU make the rules for YOU.
I have a carburetor and a jug of oil on my front porch. Also haven't mowed the lawn in almost a month.
No HOA FTW! :praise:
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 05:24:48 PM
Don't give up hope yet.
"True" capitalism is many things - HOA or avoiding HOA like the plague - remember, it's private property = private rules which means YOU make the rules for YOU.
Private property = HOA committee rules. HOA committee makes rules for YOU. Don't like rules, join committee or move away. HOA IS GOVERNMENT. To claim otherwise is stupid.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2015, 06:27:16 PM
Private property = HOA committee rules. HOA committee makes rules for YOU. Don't like rules, join committee or move away. HOA IS GOVERNMENT. To claim otherwise is stupid.
Nope.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 06:51:14 PM
Nope.
Yup. How can you not grasp such a simple concept? You are free to buy a home in a neighbourhood GOVERNED by a committee (HOA), same as you are free to live in a country governed by a committee (Congress, Parliament, etc). Don't like the rules, you are free to leave the neighbourhood, or country. Cover your ears and stomp all you want, but HOAs are government, and the worst kind at that. End of story.
Quote from: Rockraven on October 13, 2015, 06:57:50 PM
Yup. How can you not grasp such a simple concept? You are free to buy a home in a neighbourhood GOVERNED by a committee (HOA), same as you are free to live in a country governed by a committee (Congress, Parliament, etc). Don't like the rules, you are free to leave the neighbourhood, or country. Cover your ears and stomp all you want, but HOAs are government, and the worst kind at that. End of story.
The shitty part about countries is you aren't free to leave. Since every square inch of the planet is claimed by a country, you need permission to enter another country (and stay) before you can leave. Fuck the world.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 13, 2015, 07:00:44 PM
The shitty part about countries is you aren't free to leave. Since every square inch of the planet is claimed by a country, you need permission to enter another country (and stay) before you can leave. Fuck the world.
Yep.
Relax, everywhere else is worse; usually much worse.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 06:51:14 PM
Nope.
Government: Noun
1. The political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration
3. the governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.; administration
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government)
Sounds like an HOA to me.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 07:17:07 PM
Relax, everywhere else is worse; usually much worse.
Nope.
Why are we saying "an HOA"? H is not a vowel.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on October 13, 2015, 08:25:12 PM
Why are we saying "an HOA"? H is not a vowel.
Because "H" is pronounced "aych", which begins with a vowel sound.
But it's a home owners association
Not h
Shrugs
I've always pronounced HOA as a word and not as each individual letter. Must be the military in me
Quote from: HotRodPilot on October 13, 2015, 08:55:30 PM
But it's a home owners association
Not h
Shrugs
I've always pronounced HOA as a word and not as each individual letter. Must be the military in me
Oh, is
That what all those marines were saying...
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 13, 2015, 07:00:44 PM
The shitty part about countries is you aren't free to leave. Since every square inch of the planet is claimed by a country, you need permission to enter another country (and stay) before you can leave. Fuck the world.
Prior to nation states, the world was a much much shittier place to live. There were very territorial tribes (like the Native Americans had) and instead of gubment dictating your life, the tribal chiefs dictated your life. And living to a ripe old age was much less common than now.
Quote from: veeman on October 13, 2015, 09:37:43 PM
Prior to nation states, the world was a much much shittier place to live. There were very territorial tribes (like the Native Americans had) and instead of gubment dictating your life, the tribal chiefs dictated your life. And living to a ripe old age was much less common than now.
Sure, as long as you stay in your safe bubble and pay your taxes.
Humans are a plague upon the world. I'm human, so I say fuck the world.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 13, 2015, 09:11:23 PM
Oh, is That what all those marines were saying...
:nono:
Marines say "oorah". Army and Air Force say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_wgw8CsQA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_wgw8CsQA)
Quote from: MX793 on October 13, 2015, 07:22:07 PM
Government: Noun
1. The political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration
3. the governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.; administration
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/government)
Sounds like an HOA to me.
Sounds nothing like an HOA.
Quote from: 93JC on October 13, 2015, 10:13:49 PM
:nono:
Marines say "oorah". Army and Air Force say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_wgw8CsQA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_wgw8CsQA)
Get enough of 'em yelling in unison, it all sounds the same.
(It was a joke, BTW)
Quote from: GoCougs on October 13, 2015, 05:24:48 PM
"True" capitalism is many things - HOA or avoiding HOA like the plague - remember, it's private property = private rules which means YOU make the rules for YOU.
Cougs speaks of "True Capitalism" in exactly the same manner as Soviet-era Russians spoke of one day achieving "True Communism." Both these forms of extremist dogma are ideological pipe dreams that are completely unworkable in the real world. In that regard, Cougs has more in common with Karl Marx than he would like to admit!
Ok, back to VW.
The head of Skoda they moved to take over VW US already quit. :wtf: This is a total cluster.
Quote from: MrH on October 14, 2015, 07:16:21 AM
Ok, back to VW.
The head of Skoda they moved to take over VW US already quit. :wtf: This is a total cluster.
That is to bad. Vahland did such a good job at Skoda, and before that he was head of VW in China where he was also obviously a success.
Vee Dubs loss. Sounds like a smart guy, hopefully a competitor picks him up.
Quote from: Madman on October 14, 2015, 06:41:45 AM
Cougs speaks of "True Capitalism" in exactly the same manner as Soviet-era Russians spoke of one day achieving "True Communism." Both these forms of extremist dogma are ideological pipe dreams that are completely unworkable in the real world. In that regard, Cougs has more in common with Karl Marx than he would like to admit!
So what do you feel WtP owe you today?
Apparently now the FTC is investigating VW for fraudulent advertising by way of their "clean diesel" ad campaign.
(http://thumbs.imagekind.com/3457349_650/Vladimir-Lenin-_art.jpg?v=1392238740)
More important that the autocratic corporate culture aspect, is the "everyone's doing it so it's not really cheating" side of the story. My hunch is that, yes, everyone's doing it.
VW scandal: 'Culture of fear' led to 'dependence on diesel with no alternative plan', says professor
Leading business academic blames 'aggressive growth strategy' and 'shouting as a substitute for a management style' for the Volkswagen emissions scandal
More: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/volkswagen/news/emissions-scandal-culture-of-fear-led-to-dependence-on-diesel/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/volkswagen/news/emissions-scandal-culture-of-fear-led-to-dependence-on-diesel/)
Hahaha - now vacuum cleaner dude Dyson has been caught cheating: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/dyson-to-be-sued-over-volkswagen-style-cheating-claims.html?__source=xfinity (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/dyson-to-be-sued-over-volkswagen-style-cheating-claims.html?__source=xfinity)|mod&par=xfinity.
Like I said previously, bet a handsome some that most companies are gaming this sort of stuff.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2015, 10:04:54 AM
Hahaha - now vacuum cleaner dude Dyson has been caught cheating: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/dyson-to-be-sued-over-volkswagen-style-cheating-claims.html?__source=xfinity (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/29/dyson-to-be-sued-over-volkswagen-style-cheating-claims.html?__source=xfinity)|mod&par=xfinity.
Like I said previously, bet a handsome some that most companies are gaming this sort of stuff.
This is incorrect. CNBC is government-controlled and does not report any factual information.
More VW violations accused: Touareg, Cayenne, A6, A7, A8, Q5.
According to the EPA, an emissions test lasts 1,370 seconds and these cars are programmed to turn off some of their emissions controls after running for 1,371 seconds if they sense they're being tested, and don't turn these controls on at all on the road. The result: up to 9x the allowable NOx limits.
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf (http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf)
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 01, 2015, 10:10:56 AM
This is incorrect. CNBC is government-controlled and does not report any factual information.
I didn't see any facts or figures in that article. Just some dude bitching about a vacuum.
Hahahaha! But again, color me unconvinced that VW is the only automaker doing this.
lol
WTF? HOA's? EPA?, VW'S, Lenin? WTF? :muffin:
Quote from: ifcar on November 02, 2015, 12:17:03 PM
More VW violations accused: Touareg, Cayenne, A6, A7, A8, Q5.
According to the EPA, an emissions test lasts 1,370 seconds and these cars are programmed to turn off some of their emissions controls after running for 1,371 seconds if they sense they're being tested, and don't turn these controls on at all on the road. The result: up to 9x the allowable NOx limits.
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf (http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf)
What a weird number. 22.83 minutes. ?!
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 02, 2015, 06:41:57 PM
What a weird number. 22.83 minutes. ?!
I'm sure the test is very controlled. Each part of the test has a specific function or attempts to produce a different result. It's not like some dude was just like uhhhh let's test em for 1,371 seconds.
Man, VW is just taking hit after hit.
I dunno how they begin to recover though somehow they have to.
The guy who I always have deliver me to & from Heathrow Airport has been a loyal VW diesel user, most recently he's taken to Skoda station wagons. He's going to be very upset about this; fuel costs are a huge part of his business overheads.
Quote from: Morris Minor on November 03, 2015, 09:23:44 AM
The guy who I always have deliver me to & from Heathrow Airport has been a loyal VW diesel user, most recently he's taken to Skoda station wagons. He's going to be very upset about this; fuel costs are a huge part of his business overheads.
Europe has different emissions standards anyway.
VW is giving diesel owners $1,000 in a desperate attempt to keep them in the fold.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/11/vw-tdi-goodwill-program-will-pay-owners-1-000.html (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/11/vw-tdi-goodwill-program-will-pay-owners-1-000.html)
Somehow, I think it will take more than that to keep many owners happy.
Sort of...
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--qqMRIltc--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1511717458341440294.png)
Velocity Bob says it happened because of the culture established by Piech: Road & Track - One Man Established the Culture That Led to VW's Emissions Scandal (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/).
"I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now."
That makes a lot of sense, honestly.
far easier to ignore problems or push them under the rug than to own up to them...!
EPA will soon start testing cars in the real world, instead of just a lab.
http://gizmodo.com/epa-decides-to-start-properly-testing-cars-post-dieselg-1741365377?trending_test_b&utm_expid=66866090-62.YkETBcIMTk2uX1oytHipyg.2&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pistonheads.com%2Fgassing%2Ftopic.asp%3Fh%3D0%26t%3D1542617%26d%3D13096.45906%26nmt%3D (http://gizmodo.com/epa-decides-to-start-properly-testing-cars-post-dieselg-1741365377?trending_test_b&utm_expid=66866090-62.YkETBcIMTk2uX1oytHipyg.2&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pistonheads.com%2Fgassing%2Ftopic.asp%3Fh%3D0%26t%3D1542617%26d%3D13096.45906%26nmt%3D)
Lab tests will still be used to determine the official numbers but the road test will serve to weed out the cheaters.
Thank Jebus, that is a very nice outcome of this VW mess. I hope the real world is actually real world-ish. Maybe this will spell the death knell of the upshift-happy specsheet queens.
We'll see. Bet a handsome some there was plenty of lobbying by automakers to keep the EPA emissions test a lab test that a 6th grader could cheat.
Thought this was pretty good, although the author makes no mention of the urea/water injection systems that address the particulates problem.
"MONTREAL — AS scandals go, it was a juicy one. Volkswagen, one of the world's highest grossing automakers, persuaded consumers it had created a new generation of so-called clean diesel cars — until investigators discovered that defeat devices, which activated emissions controls only when the cars were tested, were concealing the fact that its vehicles emitted up to 40 times the permitted levels of pollutants during regular use.
Volkswagen has been punished with consumer opprobrium, a costly recall and plummeting sales. Yet the public outrage over the fraud obscures a much larger issue.
Volkswagen played a leading role in convincing people to accept a technology that in many countries is causing a precipitous decline in air quality for millions of city-dwellers: the diesel engine."
More...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/opinion/sunday/the-dirty-truth-about-clean-diesel.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/opinion/sunday/the-dirty-truth-about-clean-diesel.html)
Urea injection does nothing for particulates.
Quote from: MX793 on January 06, 2016, 09:01:22 AM
Urea injection does nothing for particulates.
Yup I stand corrected. It works against NOx but, for particulates, you need filters.