It's a shame that so many people are dying, but uh - if people can't be trusted to understand this, should they be driving in the first place...? The act of driving a car by itself means piloting a two ton death machine that requires judgment and awareness, with fatal consequences to others.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/business/deadly-convenience-keyless-cars-and-their-carbon-monoxide-toll.html
"Deadly Convenience: Keyless Cars and Their Carbon Monoxide Toll
Weaned from using a key, drivers have left cars running in garages, spewing exhaust into homes. Despite years of deaths, regulatory action has lagged."
It's a shame that other people like kids and stuff get killed like this, but these are Darwin's laws playing out as prescribed.
So now what?
CO detectors on the outside of the car? Mandatory idle shut down timers? You know the answer won't be "stop doing that!"
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 14, 2018, 05:42:51 AM
So now what?
CO detectors on the outside of the car? Mandatory idle shut down timers? You know the answer won't be "stop doing that!"
If only there was something you can physically switch off, like... I don't know... a key?
My solution is make people sit through real training, and spend time on all the nonsense items like "don't run people over. Don't get out of the driver seat if it's not in park. Turn the car off when you're not actually driving it."
And LOTS of hands-on training from qualified instructors.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 14, 2018, 05:56:12 AM
My solution is make people sit through real training, and spend time on all the nonsense items like "don't run people over. Don't get out of the driver seat if it's not in park. Turn the car off when you're not actually driving it."
And LOTS of hands-on training from qualified instructors.
A sensible solution that is not going to happen.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 14, 2018, 05:42:51 AM
So now what?
CO detectors on the outside of the car? Mandatory idle shut down timers? You know the answer won't be "stop doing that!"
Well, to be fair, a lot of people die from CO poisoning when it's snowy out and they let their cars idle with the exhaust blocked. I agree that this is ridiculous, but a CO sensor is cheap.
And people wonder why everything is loaded with interlock switches and nannies. Lawn tractors have pressure switches under their seats to shut them off if no one is sitting in the seat.
It's really not a big problem, minuscule number of fatalities. But it's the New York Times - running stories about heartless corporations murdering people is the thing. Far more people have died, or are confined to bariatric-sized wheelchairs, from following government guidelines on diet.
"The exact number of deaths related to carbon monoxide from keyless-ignition vehicles left running is unknown, as no federal agency keeps comprehensive records. Through 2016, the most recent year for which data is available, the safety agency had investigated only four fatal incidents. From news reports, lawsuits, police and fire records and incidents tracked by advocacy groups, The Times has identified 28 deaths and 45 injuries since 2006, but the figures could be higher."
Curious how frequently this happened with traditional keyed ignition switches. My guess is that someone absent-minded enough to forget to shut their car off in their garage, and not notice DRLs still being on and the sound of the running engine, would likely do the same with a keyed ignition.
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2018, 06:24:47 AM
And people wonder why everything is loaded with interlock switches and nannies. Lawn tractors have pressure switches under their seats to shut them off if no one is sitting in the seat.
Lol shit, last summer I couldn't figure out why my Troy-Bilt ride-on wouldn't start. It has the interlock switch under the seat, and I pulled it apart, chased other wires and checked connections, checked the battery, did some swearing, etc. After awhile I discovered another interlock switch on the plastic extraction shroud. Some grass had gotten between that and the machine, so I cleaned it out and tightened it back up to make switch contact. Success. :banghead:
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 14, 2018, 06:45:13 AM
It's really not a big problem, minuscule number of fatalities. But it's the New York Times - running stories about heartless corporations murdering people is the thing. Far more people have died, or are confined to bariatric-sized wheelchairs, from following government guidelines on diet.
I don't think anyone has become morbidly obese on 2,000 calories a day.
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2018, 06:55:44 AM
Curious how frequently this happened with traditional keyed ignition switches. My guess is that someone absent-minded enough to forget to shut their car off in their garage, and not notice DRLs still being on and the sound of the running engine, would likely do the same with a keyed ignition.
Many recent cars in the US no longer have DRLs. Others have a delay-off feature, and seeing the lights on wouldn't necessarily be a red flag of any kind.
Not trying to be heartless, but they attribute 28 deaths to keyless ignition CO poisoning since 2006. That's a hair over two deaths per year...this shouldn't be a priority for new/additional safety regulations
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 14, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
Many recent cars in the US no longer have DRLs. Others have a delay-off feature, and seeing the lights on wouldn't necessarily be a red flag of any kind.
Fair point on the delayed lighting. Every car I've ever driven, keyed or keyless, sounds a chime if you open the driver's door when the car is running or ignition is on (or key is in the ignition).
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2018, 06:55:44 AM
Curious how frequently this happened with traditional keyed ignition switches. My guess is that someone absent-minded enough to forget to shut their car off in their garage, and not notice DRLs still being on and the sound of the running engine, would likely do the same with a keyed ignition.
I wonder how many of these deaths involved hybrid cars. Could be that the car was indeed off when they parked, then turned back on once the battery was drained.
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2018, 09:29:16 AM
Fair point on the delayed lighting. Every car I've ever driven, keyed or keyless, sounds a chime if you open the driver's door when the car is running or ignition is on (or key is in the ignition).
Just tested it on my wife's Durango. Yes, it beeps annoyingly when the key is out of range. But, the key isn't out of range until I'm 8 or 9 feet from the door, and if the door is closed at that point, its quiet enough that it would be easy to miss.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 14, 2018, 10:22:36 AM
Just tested it on my wife's Durango. Yes, it beeps annoyingly when the key is out of range. But, the key isn't out of range until I'm 8 or 9 feet from the door, and if the door is closed at that point, its quiet enough that it would be easy to miss.
Some cars honk the horn. My Mustang does when you're more than like 4 feet away. I'm talking about the door ajar chime (typically the same chime you get when you leave the lights on after shutting off the car and open the door. Every car I've ever been in, if the car is running and you open the door, it provides an audible alert (ring/ping/Bing chime) the instant the door opens.
A carbon monoxide detector activated automated shutoff in cars left in park with the engine on would be a good thing. It would save a few lives a year. I have no idea how much this would add to the cost of a car. Probably a lot less than a back up camera, stability control, antilock brakes, airbags, seat belts, bumpers, etc.
Cars with keyless / push start have sensors to detect if the fob is in the vehicle. How about, if no fob is detected AND the car has remained idle for a specified period of time (10 minutes?), kill the engine.
This sounds like a nothingburger for busybodies.
Christ, talk about sensationalist journalism
Probably the same number of people have died over the years trying to copulate with their vehicles.
Quote from: CALL_911 on May 14, 2018, 11:43:00 AM
Christ, talk about sensationalist journalism
It comes from living in an advanced society where people have nothing to worry about.
Quote from: Lebowski on May 14, 2018, 11:00:48 AM
Cars with keyless / push start have sensors to detect if the fob is in the vehicle. How about, if no fob is detected AND the car has remained idle for a specified period of time (10 minutes?), kill the engine.
3 lines of code. I like it
Quote from: MX793 on May 14, 2018, 06:24:47 AM
And people wonder why everything is loaded with interlock switches and nannies. Lawn tractors have pressure switches under their seats to shut them off if no one is sitting in the seat.
I had to bypass that crap.
On the other hand, I had to make a belt guard for my '67 Simplicity to keep my pants from being sucked up in the generator belt, which is exposed and outside the engine cover.
My old truck is prehistoric. A manual choke, a four on the floor that rarely needs 1st, no accessory position on the ignition, no clutch safety switch, single speed wipers, no ding ding when the lights get left on or its running low on fuel. No seat belts...
The typical millennial would pass out in shock. :muffin:
This is just stupid. These idiots can't remember to turn off their cars (Or remove their infants from the back seat) but I'll bet my right hand they'll remember to grab their Cell Phone! What has this world come to.......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 14, 2018, 04:50:27 PM
This is just stupid. These idiots can't remember to turn off their cars (Or remove their infants from the back seat) but I'll bet my right hand they'll remember to grab their Cell Phone! What has this world come to.......
:lol:
Everything is subordinate to the smartphone.
Old people vote. Poor memory, poor coordination, poor reflexes, poor eyesight...probably shouldn't have a driver's license. Try getting a law requiring greater testing for the elderly to drive.
Yet another reason to buy manual transmissions.
Quote from: Tave on May 17, 2018, 05:27:28 AM
Yet another reason to buy manual transmissions.
How does that prevent you from forgetting to shut your car off after you pull into your garage?
Quote from: MX793 on May 17, 2018, 05:33:59 AM
How does that prevent you from forgetting to shut your car off after you pull into your garage?
Because taking your foot off the clutch kills the engine. :nutty: Unless you're one of those savages who likes to park out of gear. :shakesfist:
That actually reminds me; do new manual cars still do that auto-shutoff thing? Or do they get an exemption from that?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 05:51:16 AM
That actually reminds me; do new manual cars still do that auto-shutoff thing? Or do they get an exemption from that?
Stop-start? They can have it, the M3 had it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 05:51:16 AM
That actually reminds me; do new manual cars still do that auto-shutoff thing? Or do they get an exemption from that?
I think it depends. IIRC the Golf R auto has stop/start but the Golf R manual does not (mine does not, but I think it started on the auto the year after I bought mine). I don't think there is a mechanical reason they can NOT have it though.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on May 17, 2018, 06:02:57 AM
I think it depends. IIRC the Golf R auto has stop/start but the Golf R manual does not (mine does not, but I think it started on the auto the year after I bought mine). I don't think there is a mechanical reason they can NOT have it though.
Seems like it would be annoying to the driver, but IDK.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 06:27:58 AM
Seems like it would be annoying to the driver, but IDK.
It would only stop if gearshift was in neutral, and depressing the clutch would immediately restart the engine. Pretty seemless, but if it bothered you there was a button to turn it off.
Quote from: Tave on May 17, 2018, 05:37:43 AM
Because taking your foot off the clutch kills the engine. :nutty: Unless you're one of those savages who likes to park out of gear. :shakesfist:
I'm one of those savages if I'm on flat ground (like my garage) :huh:
Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2018, 06:43:01 AM
I'm one of those savages if I'm on flat ground (like my garage) :huh:
Decisions like that are why god punished you with baldness. :devil:
Quote from: Lebowski on May 17, 2018, 06:30:36 AM
It would only stop if gearshift was in neutral, and depressing the clutch would immediately restart the engine. Pretty seemless, but if it bothered you there was a button to turn it off.
That makes sense.
I am not sure if it would bother me or not TBH.
I assumed it would bother me, but it didn't, even w/ all the stop n go and traffic that is my typical driving environment.
Carports for safety.
Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2018, 06:43:01 AM
I'm one of those savages if I'm on flat ground (like my garage) :huh:
Same here. Neutral with the parking brake on unless I'm on a decent hill, then I supplement the brake by also putting the car in gear.
Jesus, you park your car without putting it in gear? Bloody millennials. ;) Next thing you'll say is you don't push in the clutch when starting the engine, I suppose. :rolleyes:
whut? It's not hard to leave it in gear so I've ALWAYS done that. And sometimes not used parking brake if it was in garage/ flat. Always parking brake the rest of the time.
How is it hard to leave in gear?
Nobody should trust a parking brake anyways.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 10:18:02 AM
How is it hard to leave in gear?
Nobody should trust a parking brake anyways.
Putting it in neutral before shutting it off is an extra step anyways. :lol:
Quote from: Lebowski on May 17, 2018, 07:26:47 AM
I assumed it would bother me, but it didn't, even w/ all the stop n go and traffic that is my typical driving environment.
A Renault I rented had that feature and it was pretty invisible to me as well. I'd be ok with it on a future car
It's ok if the auto start is seamless.
GM cars are OK. BMW's have the worst auto start.
Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2018, 06:43:01 AM
I'm one of those savages if I'm on flat ground (like my garage) :huh:
So do I. Now in a parking lot or whatever it's in gear. In the garage it's almost always out of gear.
I just about always parked neutral on flat ground, which was most places.
It makes it easy when I get home drunk to just take it out of gear and coast into the garage.
I've seen people fail to fully engage their parking brake on gentle slopes and have the car start to roll away from them. Or have a car with a bad brake that is fully engaged to the same. Seems like a pointless risk to take even if you're fairly certain the ground is level.
But regardless, if you're actively thinking about how to shut off the car, you're still a step ahead of the Darwin finalists in the OP. Manuals win again.
Ehhh. I don't trust cable operated parking brakes. Comes from living in a salty road car eating state, and never knowing when the cable is just gonna say "fuck it" and snap. Even when good, they don't hold well from going in reverse.
I always park in gear, but TBH not because of distrust of my handbrake. It's just habit.
I parked in neutral when I had stickshift. I don't like to rest the car on whatever the "P" locking mechanism is so I always use the parking brake now.
Quote from: 2o6 on May 17, 2018, 11:51:24 AM
It's ok if the auto start is seamless.
GM cars are OK. BMW's have the worst auto start.
My mom's 3-series has it, and man it feels like absolute shit.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 12:25:05 PM
Ehhh. I don't trust cable operated parking brakes. Comes from living in a salty road car eating state, and never knowing when the cable is just gonna say "fuck it" and snap. Even when good, they don't hold well from going in reverse.
Agreed. Especially if they don't get used all the time, they just fail.
My A4 was one of those fancy hydraulic/electric/whatever ones and I had confidence in it, but would park in gear on slopes anyways.
It was a driving test item for me: parallel park the car, on a hill, next to the kerb. You had to leave it in gear, handbrake on, steering angled away the kerb. Switch off engine.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 17, 2018, 12:57:07 PM
I parked in neutral when I had stickshift. I don't like to rest the car on whatever the "P" locking mechanism is so I always use the parking brake now.
The parking pawl locks the output shaft of the transmission. They can be broken, but it takes a lot of force. Its also a beefy, protected mechanism that doesn't wear out, opposed to the cable which is often exposed underneath the car, or the brakes which wear out. (Yes, I know the parking brake is often a seperate, smaller drum brake inside the rear discs, but it wears out too- especially when it goes outnof adjustment and doesn't release completely).
I park in neutral with the handbrake unless on a hill, then I'm in gear. I don't remember the exact details, but I had a friend park his car in 1st gear and had remote start on it but he didn't have the hand brake engaged. The car kept cranking, lurching forward, not catching, then repeating and he had to chase after it. Pretty bummed I wasn't there to experience it.
Always park in gear + parking brake.
I have always parked a manual in gear, parking brake on. And I tend to use the parking brake more than most people in an auto as well, I like redundant.
In the 4.5 years I've daily driven a manual shift yourself, I've never parked in gear. Now that I think about it, that's pretty dumb to do on a slope. I'm used to by habit turning on the car with right foot on the brake but my left foot not on the clutch, then releasing the brake with the parking brake still on. Then I fiddle with my phone setting the Waze and fiddle with the heat/ac settings until I get going. The times when parking lot attendants or car dealership service technicians have parked my car, I'm jolted when I turn the car on and the car lurches forward.
I use the parking brake a lot on the automatics I have especially when loading up the SUV with luggage.
In one of my earlier visits to the USA I was allowed out in my father-in-law's Chevy Citation (what a treat.)
I could not start the thing. Did not realize it had an interlock on the clutch: depress the clutch, turn the key, life will be good.
In the UK you paid for starting the car in gear (fender benders etc)
Quote from: Xer0 on May 17, 2018, 03:59:59 PM
I park in neutral with the handbrake unless on a hill, then I'm in gear. I don't remember the exact details, but I had a friend park his car in 1st gear and had remote start on it but he didn't have the hand brake engaged. The car kept cranking, lurching forward, not catching, then repeating and he had to chase after it. Pretty bummed I wasn't there to experience it.
LOL
Quote from: veeman on May 17, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
In the 4.5 years I've daily driven a manual shift yourself, I've never parked in gear. Now that I think about it, that's pretty dumb to do on a slope. I'm used to by habit turning on the car with right foot on the brake but my left foot not on the clutch, then releasing the brake with the parking brake still on. Then I fiddle with my phone setting the Waze and fiddle with the heat/ac settings until I get going. The times when parking lot attendants or car dealership service technicians have parked my car, I'm jolted when I turn the car on and the car lurches forward.
I use the parking brake a lot on the automatics I have especially when loading up the SUV with luggage.
This is all wrong. All of it.
I need to go lay down now.
Quote from: veeman on May 17, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
In the 4.5 years I've daily driven a manual shift yourself, I've never parked in gear. Now that I think about it, that's pretty dumb to do on a slope. I'm used to by habit turning on the car with right foot on the brake but my left foot not on the clutch, then releasing the brake with the parking brake still on. Then I fiddle with my phone setting the Waze and fiddle with the heat/ac settings until I get going. The times when parking lot attendants or car dealership service technicians have parked my car, I'm jolted when I turn the car on and the car lurches forward.
I use the parking brake a lot on the automatics I have especially when loading up the SUV with luggage.
Do you daily an antique? Every MT vehicle sold in the US for the past 40+ years has an interlock that requires the clutch be depressed to start the vehicle. Unless someone disables it (necessary to install a remote starter).
Quote from: MX793 on May 18, 2018, 06:12:07 AM
Do you daily an antique? Every MT vehicle sold in the US for the past 40+ years has an interlock that requires the clutch be depressed to start the vehicle. Unless someone disables it (necessary to install a remote starter).
Most do, but there are exceptions. VW didn't for a while, and my '95 Jeep didn't.
In any case, everything he's describing is making my teeth itch.
I will say that my habit of parking in neutral on flat ground likely comes from growing up with dirtbikes and ATVs. These tend to roll easier in neutral than in gear with the clutch disengaged. And since the toys were pushed in and out of the garage, that meant putting them in neutral before parking in the garage made that task a little easier.
That makes sense.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 17, 2018, 09:12:20 PM
This is all wrong. All of it.
I need to go lay down now.
Quote from: MX793 on May 18, 2018, 06:12:07 AM
Do you daily an antique? Every MT vehicle sold in the US for the past 40+ years has an interlock that requires the clutch be depressed to start the vehicle. Unless someone disables it (necessary to install a remote starter).
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 18, 2018, 06:14:24 AM
Most do, but there are exceptions. VW didn't for a while, and my '95 Jeep didn't.
In any case, everything he's describing is making my teeth itch.
Well I just went out and started my car. By golly I do depress the clutch and brake when I start the car but then let go of both the clutch and brake with the parking brake still on. That's when I fiddle with the Waze and HVAC controls.
I'll have to get used to putting the car in gear when I turn it off.
Quote from: Tave on May 17, 2018, 12:23:55 PM
I've seen people fail to fully engage their parking brake on gentle slopes and have the car start to roll away from them. Or have a car with a bad brake that is fully engaged to the same. Seems like a pointless risk to take even if you're fairly certain the ground is level.
But regardless, if you're actively thinking about how to shut off the car, you're still a step ahead of the Darwin finalists in the OP. Manuals win again.
One day my friend left his Wrangler out of gear on flat land. Then an announcement comes over the loud speakers (this was high school) that a Jeep was rolling down the parking lot lane on its own. Turns out, even though the ground was flat, the wind was high enough that it was pushing the car around. :lol:
Quote from: Lebowski on May 17, 2018, 06:56:20 PM
I have always parked a manual in gear, parking brake on. And I tend to use the parking brake more than most people in an auto as well, I like redundant.
Same here. In the S4, I always use the e-brake when I put it in park (engaging before I let my foot off the brake). Old habit from when I drove an automatic regularly.
Quote from: Raza on May 19, 2018, 07:11:54 AM
One day my friend left his Wrangler out of gear on flat land. Then an announcement comes over the loud speakers (this was high school) that a Jeep was rolling down the parking lot lane on its own. Turns out, even though the ground was flat, the wind was high enough that it was pushing the car around. :lol:
Love it.
Quote from: Raza on May 19, 2018, 07:11:54 AM
One day my friend left his Wrangler out of gear on flat land. Then an announcement comes over the loud speakers (this was high school) that a Jeep was rolling down the parking lot lane on its own. Turns out, even though the ground was flat, the wind was high enough that it was pushing the car around. :lol:
Don't know the exact years this effected, but mine was recalled for the parking brake releasing because the ratchet pawl wouldn't engage all the way.