https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/12/toyota-owners-have-to-pay-8-mo-to-keep-using-their-key-fob-for-remote-start/
Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start
Feature requires subscription even though it doesn't use connected services.
Automakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.
Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise—they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.
In terms of technology, this remote-start feature is no different from using the fob to unlock the car. The fobs use a short-range radio transmitter to send the car a signal that is encrypted with rolling codes. The car then decrypts the signal and performs the requested action, whether it's to lock or unlock the doors, beep the horn, or start the engine. RF key fobs have been around since the 1980s, and GM added a factory-installed remote-start option in 2004 (no subscription needed).
Key fob remote start has nothing to do with an app, nor does the car or the fob communicate with any servers managed by Toyota.
Toyota has been offering factory-installed remote start on 2018 and newer vehicles equipped with Audio Plus or Premium Audio. To use it, owners have to be within 50 feet of the vehicle and double-press the fob's lock button before holding the lock button down for a few seconds.
Yet recently, as 2018 Toyotas have passed their third birthday, owners have been discovering that the fob's functionality is dependent on maintaining an active Remote Connect subscription. Vehicles equipped with Audio Plus receive a free three-year "trial," while Premium Audio vehicles receive 10 years. Once those subscriptions expire, though, the key fob remote start stops working. Toyota didn't change the rules, though that detail was buried in the fine print. When the time comes, Toyota simply cuts off access to one of the functions on the key fob already in the owner's possession. To get the feature back, owners have to pony up $8 per month or $80 per year.
But if you have a Toyota built before November 12, 2018, you won't have to pay, even though key-fob remote start for those vehicles was also tied to Remote Connect. Toyota said it has "enhanced" those cars so that owners can use the feature without a subscription.
Why the cutoff? It may seem like an arbitrary date, but it happens to be when Toyota stopped building cars with 3G chips. As telecoms sunset their 3G networks, owners of older Toyotas will have no way to subscribe to or use Remote Connect services. Since key fob remote start doesn't require an Internet connection, Toyota just flipped a switch and gave it to everyone in that group.
It's a nice gesture, but it reinforces the fact that there's no technical reason to include RF-powered key fob features in a remote services package.
I refuse to buy a car that requires $8 to use all the buttons on the keyfob. Total horseshit.
Wow. Just wow. TBH, this is the sort of thing I would have expected from Jim Hackett era Ford. Not Toyota, though.
Pretty shitty.
When I bought the 4Runner, the dealer was pretty surprised I wasn't interested in any of the "connected services." it took some convincing for him to get the techs to actually turn it all off.
The remote start still works though- maybe he lied to me?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 13, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
Pretty shitty.
When I bought the 4Runner, the dealer was pretty surprised I wasn't interested in any of the "connected services." it took some convincing for him to get the techs to actually turn it all off.
The remote start still works though- maybe he lied to me?
How about navigation?
Subscription based apps and services should be banned, unless you're obtaining a new item or service on a regular basis.
This doesn't make any sense? Like, technology wise, why would RF based remote start be tied to a connectivity subscription? How would they even cut it off unless it was using cellular somehow?
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 13, 2021, 04:38:24 PM
How about navigation?
Yeah; no reason why it shouldn't- GPS is receive only. I probably don't get traffic updates or stuff like that, but that's what waze is for anyways.
Quote from: MrH on December 13, 2021, 04:45:17 PM
This doesn't make any sense? Like, technology wise, why would RF based remote start be tied to a connectivity subscription? How would they even cut it off unless it was using cellular somehow?
I think the car ignores the remote if you aren't subscribed? And the car has connectivity.
Pre-2018 cars will continue to work because they will lose their 3G connectivity, so they won't know your subscription status.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 13, 2021, 04:02:44 PM
I refuse to buy a car that requires $8 to use all the buttons on the keyfob. Total horseshit.
WORD.........
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 13, 2021, 05:01:58 PM
I think the car ignores the remote if you aren't subscribed? And the car has connectivity.
Pre-2018 cars will continue to work because they will lose their 3G connectivity, so they won't know your subscription status.
There must be access to the controller such that Toyota can remotely toggle remote start functionality on or off over the air. Wonder what else they can do? Or what a hacker might be able to do.
The wonders of the internet of things. The future is now.
Brilliant
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 13, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
Pretty shitty.
When I bought the 4Runner, the dealer was pretty surprised I wasn't interested in any of the "connected services." it took some convincing for him to get the techs to actually turn it all off.
The remote start still works though- maybe he lied to me?
At least when we got our GX, the dealer was pretty straight forward with us telling us that the remote start function is only available for free for 3 years, after that you have to pay.. but considering we got the Mark Levinson sound system, maybe it's 10 years? :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 13, 2021, 05:01:58 PM
I think the car ignores the remote if you aren't subscribed? And the car has connectivity.
Pre-2018 cars will continue to work because they will lose their 3G connectivity, so they won't know your subscription status.
Yeah, just seems weird to have that as a check. What if you're in the mountains with no cell service, and you go to remote start? How does it run that loop to check if you have a subscription, because you won't have any connectivity?
I think I need to read the actual Toyota write up on this, instead of the ars technica interpretation of it.
Quote from: MrH on December 14, 2021, 08:06:16 AM
Yeah, just seems weird to have that as a check. What if you're in the mountains with no cell service, and you go to remote start? How does it run that loop to check if you have a subscription, because you won't have any connectivity?
I think I need to read the actual Toyota write up on this, instead of the ars technica interpretation of it.
It's probably not a continuous check that requires network connection at all times. My guess is the toggle is turned on when you are a subscriber and stays on, regardless of network connectivity. When you cancel your subscription, Toyota remotely toggles the feature to off the next time your car connects to the network and confirms you no longer have a subscription and it stays off.
Subscribe, yank the cable, unsubscribe. SOLVED
Quote from: MrH on December 14, 2021, 08:28:06 AM
Subscribe, yank the cable, unsubscribe. SOLVED
That would certainly be one way to test it. Disable or block the 4G antenna/receiver. The car may throw some other faults or lose other functionality. Depends on how they've integrated it.
At this rate, I'm going to start building Factory Five commuter cars. Bluetooth stereo and that's it for infotainment. Could even make them EVs, just without all the other BS that automakers are starting to push.
Quote from: MrH on December 14, 2021, 08:28:06 AM
Subscribe, yank the cable, unsubscribe. SOLVED
It used to work with old cable service.
I guarantee there'll be some hack to get around this, probably on the internet soon.
Nothing like jeopardizing millions in sales for $80/year....
This is discussed like crazy on the Maverick forum- because there's a lot of features with the Ford Pass which would friend on 4g. But so far looks like Ford is only charging for WiFi, not other internet features...
Whatever this paywalling software on vehicles bullshit thing is, it is spreading.
Of course there is Tesla, Toyota, and now
Zero Motorcycles https://www.motorcycle.com/features/2022-zero-new-batteries-software-performance-upgrades-and-a-new-sr.html
With the app, you can pay to unlock features of the motorcycle such as faster charging, more power, heated grips. You buy all of the hardware when you buy the bike, but you can't use it u til you pay to unlock it.
This is not some $80 video game. This is a vehicle that costs $$$$$$$$$ to own.
This has got to stop.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 14, 2021, 11:43:11 AM
Whatever this paywalling software on vehicles bullshit thing is, it is spreading.
Of course there is Tesla, Toyota, and now
Zero Motorcycles https://www.motorcycle.com/features/2022-zero-new-batteries-software-performance-upgrades-and-a-new-sr.html
With the app, you can pay to unlock features of the motorcycle such as faster charging, more power, heated grips. You buy all of the hardware when you buy the bike, but you can't use it u til you pay to unlock it.
This is not some $80 video game. This is a vehicle that costs $$$$$$$$$ to own.
This has got to stop.
Wait until the execs learn about loot boxes...
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2021, 11:44:56 AM
Wait until the execs learn about loot boxes...
I hear every pedestrian kill gives you 100 store credits, and you can double it with a 3+ kill streak.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 14, 2021, 11:47:03 AM
I hear every pedestrian kill gives you 100 store credits, and you can double it with a 3+ kill streak.
No points systems. Loot boxes are for purchase only. You will receive a random feature unlock for 2 months with each box purchase. Duplicates will extend the feature access by 2 additional months. Unlockable features to will include:
-Various horn tones
-Access to Sport mode
-Smart cruise
-Automated driving functions
-Remote starting
-Satellite radio
-Navigation
-Ability to open the sunroof
-Seat heaters
-Seat coolers
-Heated steering wheel
-Various colors for interior accent lighting
-Cosmetic "themes" for digital gages and infotainment screens
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2021, 12:03:49 PM
No points systems. Loot boxes are for purchase only. You will receive a random feature unlock for 2 months with each box purchase. Duplicates will extend the feature access by 2 additional months. Unlockable features to will include:
-Various horn tones
-Access to Sport mode
-Smart cruise
-Automated driving functions
-Remote starting
-Satellite radio
-Navigation
-Ability to open the sunroof
-Seat heaters
-Seat coolers
-Heated steering wheel
-Various colors for interior accent lighting
-Cosmetic "themes" for digital gages and infotainment screens
But I heard there was a limited edition that gave you a 10% battery boost if you cold hold a wheelie for a whole mile.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 14, 2021, 12:16:48 PM
But I heard there was a limited edition that gave you a 10% battery boost if you cold hold a wheelie for a whole mile.
Think of the promotion potential. Instead of rebates, dealers could offer loot boxes with vehicle purchase. "Receive 6 free loot boxes if you buy during our holiday promotion".
As with video games, 99% of loot drops will be low-value cosmetic stuff like horn tones or screen themes. Boxes will cost $3 each, or $12 for a 5 pack.
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2021, 12:23:46 PM
Think of the promotion potential. Instead of rebates, dealers could offer loot boxes with vehicle purchase. "Receive 6 free loot boxes if you buy during our holiday promotion".
As with video games, 99% of loot drops will be low-value cosmetic stuff like horn tones or screen themes. Boxes will cost $3 each, or $12 for a 5 pack.
I hate loot boxes. I only use points to buy them, and I never buy points. I save my points from leveling up.
Yeah, my next car is going to be a Stanley Steamer.
I guess they didn't learn from BMW locking their owners out of carplay
Quote from: r0tor on December 14, 2021, 01:14:47 PM
I guess they didn't learn from BMW locking their owners out of carplay
BMW at least had a somewhat reasonable excuse for the charge (their wireless interface would require updates to stay compatible as ACP updated, so they were providing some value-add through continued app maintenance for the interface). When the remote start HW is self contained in the vehicle and fob, what is Toyota actually providing for $8 that would be needed to facilitate that functionality? It would be one thing if it allowed you to remote start from anywhere via an App that Toyota maintained, and transmitted via 4G network.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 14, 2021, 12:57:29 PM
Yeah, my next car is going to be a Stanley Steamer.
Tough on dirt.
Gentle on carpets.
But Wait There's More
https://www.jdpower.com/automotive-news/mercedes-benz-eqs-rear-wheel-steer-requires-subscription
Quote from: r0tor on December 15, 2021, 06:55:13 AM
But Wait There's More
https://www.jdpower.com/automotive-news/mercedes-benz-eqs-rear-wheel-steer-requires-subscription
Yeah, if consumers don't stick together with a collective middle finger towards this ridiculousness (and they won't), its just going to get much worse.
Used car market will remain very strong.
Quote from: r0tor on December 15, 2021, 06:55:13 AM
But Wait There's More
https://www.jdpower.com/automotive-news/mercedes-benz-eqs-rear-wheel-steer-requires-subscription
:confused:
May the El Camino live forever.
The subscription thing is here and much more is on the way. As more cars use screens instead of buttons all that needs done is to gray the button out after the subscription expires. It would simplify production since option choice would happen after sale.
Quote from: r0tor on December 15, 2021, 06:55:13 AM
But Wait There's More
https://www.jdpower.com/automotive-news/mercedes-benz-eqs-rear-wheel-steer-requires-subscription
Gross.
Quote from: Rich on December 15, 2021, 04:37:03 PM
The subscription thing is here and much more is on the way. As more cars use screens instead of buttons all that needs done is to gray the button out after the subscription expires. It would simplify production since option choice would happen after sale.
It is already obscene that the average new car costs over $45K. I don't think I'll ever buy a car new enough to have a screen. 1996 is new enough.
Quote from: r0tor on December 15, 2021, 06:55:13 AM
But Wait There's More
https://www.jdpower.com/automotive-news/mercedes-benz-eqs-rear-wheel-steer-requires-subscription
What the hell. What the goddamn hell.
If there wasn't such a huge EV push, I could see multi-displacement systems locking out cylinders unless the subscription is paid. 10 speed transmission? You only get 5 speeds unless you pay a subscription. 4 wheel brakes? You only get to use 2 unless you pay a monthly fee.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 15, 2021, 05:09:16 PM
If there wasn't such a huge EV push, I could see multi-displacement systems locking out cylinders unless the subscription is paid. 10 speed transmission? You only get 5 speeds unless you pay a subscription. 4 wheel brakes? You only get to use 2 unless you pay a monthly fee.
EVs already basically do this.
The next step would be pay-on-demand.
Need extra range next week for that cross country trip? Pay an extra $40/day to access the reserve tank and cruising gear!
Quote from: MX793 on December 14, 2021, 11:44:56 AM
Wait until the execs learn about loot boxes...
1 in every 12 million times you start your car, they'll unlock an extra 100 horsepower, but you can buy boxes with a better chance of getting legendary items like brakes or turn signals!