Link (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=2221)
I am very upset at this comparo. R&T is supposed to be a enthusiast, sport oriented magazine. The 545i won in every aspect of performance, brushing aside the other two cars. And yet they lowered the score because of styling, ride, and interior functionality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Road and Track was supposed to be the most sport oriented mag...it sounds like they are becoming a CR.
Thoughts?
Reading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
QuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
QuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Meh, after reading the other reviews this is nothing new.
BMW is the most sporty, GS is the most luxurious, and the Infiniti is the best blend (and the cheapest).
Based on quotes like "...the BMW pulls ahead in the driving-related categories only to lose ground for its styling, comfort and ergonomics. That said, the 545i remains the enthusiast's choice for any kind of serious road work. Of our three, it's still the fastest, best-handling and most satisfying car to drive..." I have to imagine I would prefer the 545i since I like its style the best and comfort/ergonomics seem about the same for me between all these cars. That along with the fact that the 545i also gives me the right type of transmission (6MT).
Honestly though its hard for me to imagine spending the extra money over a 530i. I've never owned a V8 though so who knows, maybe I would be different if I was used to that big torque.
QuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
QuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
QuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
*whips out calculator*
I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
*whips out calculator*
I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.
Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
*whips out calculator*
I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.
Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.
I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.
I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
*whips out calculator*
I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.
Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.
I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.
I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).
I don mind price as a determining factor...that isnt subjective at all, and is a very big consideration in buying a car....but ranking down a car because some tester at Road and Track doesnt like the exterior and interior styling annoys me a lot.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteReading their conclusion, it makes more sense that the M45 that "did most everything well, never tripped up and kept us coming back for more" would win, over a flawed luxury car with some measures of additional sport. And don't forget that the M45 was $12,000 less.
You're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Well, they did say that it was the best in everything performance related. They did say its handling was ver good, and all that. And in a performance oriented magazine, I wouldnt think gripes over the interior functionality would knock a car out of first place.
Interior functionality was worth almost nothing. Price was. The 545i lost 10 points relative to the M45 in that area.
Didn't the M45 win regardless of price?
*whips out calculator*
I guess it does. The rest of the difference seems to have come from the interior and exterior styling ratings.
Which was my point...you shouldnt take off points for interior functionality and exterior styling (both complete subjective), while the comparison is about sport, in which the 545i won a decisive victory.
I also disagree with the use of styling as a determining factor, (it was interior styling, not functionality, that the 545i lost a lot of points on) but sport obviously isn't and shouldn't be the only consideration in a $60K luxury sedan. Had they weighted price properly, the M45 would have won anyway.
I've always hated the chart-derived comparison orders, because it means that the editors don't get the same say in where the vehicles will place (though I assume the order would have been the same without the chart).
I don mind price as a determining factor...that isnt subjective at all, and is a very big consideration in buying a car....but ranking down a car because some tester at Road and Track doesnt like the exterior and interior styling annoys me a lot.
Pretty stupid. But I suppose we could say that the ends justify the means; they came out with an order that I almost agree with by mistake, but they came out with an order that I almost agree with.
Overall I think it was a good review even though I would personally rank them differently.
In all honesty style does seem like a silly category for giving points though. The only more rediculous point system I have seen is the one with "gotta have it" factor. :lol:
Well, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
QuoteOverall I think it was a good review even though I would personally rank them differently.
In all honesty style does seem like a silly category for giving points though. The only more rediculous point system I have seen is the one with "gotta have it" factor. :lol:
Style is not completely subjective.
Well, technically it is, by design is not. It's formulaic and mathematic. So, style, a category that is comprised of both styling and design, is technically partially subjective.
QuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
QuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
We've noticed. ;)
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
We've noticed. ;)
I know. I was just replying to his comment that he didnt see much of the old and that he's already seen more new M's than old ones. ;)
QuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them. But I found it to be a much better looking sedan. At the time, the best Infiniti sold. 95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them. But I found it to be a much better looking sedan. At the time, the best Infiniti sold. 95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.
I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them. But I found it to be a much better looking sedan. At the time, the best Infiniti sold. 95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.
I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.
And way too skinny. It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it. But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive. The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working. I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them. But I found it to be a much better looking sedan. At the time, the best Infiniti sold. 95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.
I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.
And way too skinny. It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.
It looked muscular, but the design didn't flow and it looked like a brick.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, if the M45 looked half as good as the 545i and was available with a manual (or even an F1) I might consider it.? But it's too smoothed, bloated, and just not very attractive.? The only thing that would make it a good buy is the price, and that strategy seems to be working.? I've already seen more of the new M series than I have of the old.
The old M was a flop. This new one has a good price and good looks, and particularly power, going for it. I would take a 545i over it anyday of the week though.
Of course the old one was a flop--they sold maybe 4 of them. But I found it to be a much better looking sedan. At the time, the best Infiniti sold. 95% of the luxury of the Q45 with the same power, less weight, and a better suspension.
I don't ever think i've seen an old M in person. Too blocky though.
And way too skinny. It was badged off a Nissan Cedric from Japan, and was not tailored for American Tastes.
It looked muscular, but the design didn't flow and it looked like a brick.
It was still not tailored to American tastes...I dont think the fact that it looked like a brick specifically hampered sales.
It was as they tagged it...an intelligent muscle car. That was the appeal. I'm sorry it was lost on everyone else, but the 300C is such a huge success....
QuoteIt was as they tagged it...an intelligent muscle car. That was the appeal. I'm sorry it was lost on everyone else, but the 300C is such a huge success....
it's as Dave said, it wasn't designed for the American market.
QuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.
But we agree that they are extemely important factors. What do you think a person senses when he drives the car? Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.
But we agree that they are extemely important factors. What do you think a person senses when he drives the car? Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.
Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only. As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.
But we agree that they are extemely important factors. What do you think a person senses when he drives the car? Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.
Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only. As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.
The less mass, the better the handling, usually. 200 pounds is a lot!
i don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...
Quotei don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...
I wouldn't nitpick 200lbs, but steering feel I would definitely nitpick.
QuoteQuotei don't think people will be nitpicking for 200lbs and steering feel in a sport luxury sedan...
I wouldn't nitpick 200lbs, but steering feel I would definitely nitpick.
that's because you are a car enthusiast. Most drivers aren't. And the kind of person who buys these cars are people looking for prestige, and luxury more than sport.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
Some of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.
This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.
When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.
Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.
QuoteSome of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.
This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.
When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.
Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.
I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.
Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but
it's by no means far behind."
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in... :rolleyes:
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
What do you think makes it drive like it drives? Steering feel and ratio? Maybe thats one thing, but the four factors Faris mentioned are tremendous factors that affect a car's driving abilities.
Of course they are. But if they represented every aspect of handling, then no one would have to conduct handling tests. Just the same as the way that engine power specs, even combined with vehicle weight, can't accurately measure acceleration.
But we agree that they are extemely important factors. What do you think a person senses when he drives the car? Its all these factors coming together in a cohesive package.
Of course they are important factors, but they aren't the only factors. There are simply too many different variables that can effect the handling ability of a car for anyone to determine which one handles better by spec sheet only. As heavy as these cars are, I really don't think 200 lbs probably makes that much of a difference.
The less mass, the better the handling, usually. 200 pounds is a lot!
Sorry, but I don't think 200 lbs is going to make that much of a difference when we are comparing a 3800 lb car to a 4000 lb one.
QuoteQuoteSome of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.
This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.
When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.
Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.
I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.
Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.
A 530i would be my choice. The 545 is way too heavy IMO.
QuoteQuoteQuoteSome of you are saying that the 200lbs aren't a big deal. Trust me, you'd notice that an M35 would likely feel a lot lighter on its feet than an M45.
This is especially important because of the M45's weight distrubution when compared with the 5.
When you do the math, as far as weight goes, the M45 is basically a 5-Series with nearly 200lbs. put on the front axle.
Personally speaking, I don't like that fact, especially when I think that the 545 is already way too heavy.
I totally agree with you, which is why if I was buying a car in this class (size) my first choice would be a 530i sport. Under 3500 lbs.
Heck, even the new 525i would be tempting. 3400 lbs and 215 HP is not a bad or slow combination.
A 530i would be my choice. The 545 is way too heavy IMO.
A 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in... :rolleyes:
they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in... :rolleyes:
they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.
If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe. I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in... :rolleyes:
they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.
If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe. I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.
I guess Infiniti fails to realize that HP is not the factor that determines a sport car.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou're acting like there is a significant difference between the level of sport found in the BMW vs. the Infiniti, which there really isn't.
Uh, yeah there is...
The 545i is 200 lbs. lighter, is available with a manual transmission, has better weight distribution, and is smaller in every dimension.
If you think that degree of sport is based on dimensions, then you just need to pull up a spec sheet on all three cars. :rolleyes:
200 lbs, transmission, and weight distribution are all huge factors.
Obviously, they are not the only important factors, otherwise there would be no need to actually DRIVE a car to see how it drives.
Okay. And with those factors, the 5-Series is also KNOWN to be more precise and have overall better steering.
My entire point was that the level of sport IS very different in the M45 and the 545.
R/T would disagree with you that the levels of sport are "very" different, and they're the ones making the order:
"Our blasts through Death Valley confirm this, the Infiniti cornering confidently without ever losing ground to the BMW. It still lacks the 545i's trademark handling crispness and communicative steering feel, but it's by no means far behind."
BMW is no longer the world-class performer in handling, etc. they may be the best, but other rivals are catching up quickly.
And BMW will sit idly by as its competitors close in... :rolleyes:
they won't sit idly, but their rivals are coming faster and faster.
If Infiniti still wants to play the number game, I've seen the old 330Ci match the 280HP G35 coupe. I can't even imagine how strongly the new 330i will decimate the G35.
i mean in handling. any company can bolt on more hp and make a car go faster.
Raza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
QuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
QuoteQuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?
QuoteA 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!
What about a 325i... !!!???
That would be crazy...
Think, Raza... 3200 lbs... and 310HP...
It could all be done for under $40K...
QuoteQuoteQuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?
Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.
QuoteQuoteA 530i with an AA supercharger? Wot!
What about a 325i... !!!???
That would be crazy...
Think, Raza... 3200 lbs... and 310HP...
It could all be done for under $40K...
its not all about hp. :lol:
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?
Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.
:shrugs: it always seemed to me that BMW's were always one class higher than they should be size-wise.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
because it's probably BIGGER than a 530i?
Not Even close. The 5er is a good amount larger in every dimension.
:shrugs: it always seemed to me that BMW's were always one class higher than they should be size-wise.
The 5er is bigger in every respect than the G35, but extensive use of lightweigh materials keep the weight down. BMW now seems the most concerned about keeping weight down. A lot of their cars are lighter than the previous version, or only have minor weight gains. The 5, and Z4, to name a few, are lighter than their predecesors.
QuoteQuoteRaza, keep in mind that the G35 is nearing the end of its product cycle while the E90 is just beginning its cycle.
The G35 still has a good 2-3 years for its product cycle.
And what are they gonna do, give it a V8?
I'm still trying to figure out why the damn thing weighs more than a 530i.
No, they will make it more refined with a higher quality interior and a better ride. Also, I think it is time you shut up about the G35's weight since it is only 100 lb heavier than the considerably smaller 330i.