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Auto Talk => Luxury Talk => Topic started by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 12:13:27 PM

Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 12:13:27 PM
Most of you probably remember the most recent IFCAR comparo (minivans), and here's the ultra-luxury group:

http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.ultraluxsedans.htm (http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.ultraluxsedans.htm)

Vehicles included:
Audi A8 4.2
BMW 750i
Jaguar XJ8 L
Lexus LS430
Mercedes-Benz S430
Volkswagen Phaeton 4.2

Before you bring it up, I am aware that the review is still a bit rough around the edges, with some data missing. However, none of it should be critical to the review (I believe only the features added to the vehicle), but if it is, just ask and I'll find the info. Many links outside of the comparison do not work, but everything important to the comparison itself should.

If you have questions, please ask. If you disagree with anything, please bring it up for an INTELLIGENT debate (IE not "Well, I thought this should have been in first place, and I saw another comparison that agrees with me, so you're wrong.") If you see errors (in either content or with the site) please let me know.

BTW, it costs money to run a site, so if viewers could please click on a few ads, I'd appreciate it.

Enjoy!
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on May 29, 2005, 12:41:29 PM
It looks pretty good to me IFcar, I also gave you about 20 hits to your links to pay the bills.  




You're very welcome.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 12:46:40 PM
QuoteIt looks pretty good to me IFcar, I also gave you about 20 hits to your links to pay the bills.  




You're very welcome.
And you're very thanked.

I guess post whores are good for something then...  :P  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 12:50:26 PM
did you actually drive and test out these cars?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
Quotedid you actually drive and test out these cars?
Yep.  :praise:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 12:51:35 PM
Quote
Quotedid you actually drive and test out these cars?
Yep.  :praise:
nice. B)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 12:52:34 PM
Quote
Quote
Quotedid you actually drive and test out these cars?
Yep.  :praise:
nice. B)
Yep.  :praise:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on May 29, 2005, 12:53:02 PM
The 430s are really further up there in price then I thought.  When I was at the dealer for service the other day they had a black CLS on the floor.  If you only need room for four it would be a great choice.  It was pretty stunning besides this one spot behind the rear doors.  There is a strange insert there that makes the car look scratched, absolutely strange.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 12:54:24 PM
QuoteThe 430s are really further up there in price then I thought.  When I was at the dealer for service the other day they had a black CLS on the floor.  If you only need room for four it would be a great choice.  It was pretty stunning besides this one spot behind the rear doors.  There is a strange insert there that makes the car look scratched, absolutely strange.
yeah, the CLS looks better than the S class, except for the fat ass.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on May 29, 2005, 12:58:58 PM
Quote
QuoteThe 430s are really further up there in price then I thought.  When I was at the dealer for service the other day they had a black CLS on the floor.  If you only need room for four it would be a great choice.  It was pretty stunning besides this one spot behind the rear doors.  There is a strange insert there that makes the car look scratched, absolutely strange.
yeah, the CLS looks better than the S class, except for the fat ass.
It took me a bit of looking at it but I really warmed up to the rear of the car after walking around it a few times.  I didn't like it at first but the more I looked at it the more it grew on me.  In pics it does look chnky but it doesn't come off that way in front of you.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 01:00:11 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteThe 430s are really further up there in price then I thought.  When I was at the dealer for service the other day they had a black CLS on the floor.  If you only need room for four it would be a great choice.  It was pretty stunning besides this one spot behind the rear doors.  There is a strange insert there that makes the car look scratched, absolutely strange.
yeah, the CLS looks better than the S class, except for the fat ass.
It took me a bit of looking at it but I really warmed up to the rear of the car after walking around it a few times.  I didn't like it at first but the more I looked at it the more it grew on me.  In pics it does look chnky but it doesn't come off that way in front of you.
i haven't seen one in person, so maybe my opinion will change when i see one.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: giant_mtb on May 29, 2005, 01:00:50 PM
Ironic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  I didn't even know there were people around here who could afford an 80K car..geez.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 01:01:40 PM
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:10:25 PM
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: giant_mtb on May 29, 2005, 01:11:07 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
Well how do you do it?!  Is it your charm?  :P  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 01:11:51 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
soo, do you dress up in a nice suit or something when you go to the dealership?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:13:05 PM
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: giant_mtb on May 29, 2005, 01:13:43 PM
Quote
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:14:36 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
soo, do you dress up in a nice suit or something when you go to the dealership?
Do you think that the wealthy wear suits wherever they go?  :rolleyes:

A polo shirt and any nicer-than-jeans pants work just fine.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
ditch the car somewhere, dress up nicely, walk into the dealership and request a test-drive. :rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:16:35 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
I have no other significant hobbies, so I can spend a lot of time with this one. You'd be surprised how willing even the luxury car dealerships are to provide a test drive.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: giant_mtb on May 29, 2005, 01:17:52 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
I have no other significant hobbies, so I can spend a lot of time with this one. You'd be surprised how willing even the luxury car dealerships are to provide a test drive.
I see...

What is your profession?  Like your career...do you have one and just do cars on the side?  (sorry to hijack...)
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:20:49 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
I have no other significant hobbies, so I can spend a lot of time with this one. You'd be surprised how willing even the luxury car dealerships are to provide a test drive.
I see...

What is your profession?  Like your career...do you have one and just do cars on the side?  (sorry to hijack...)
I try not to discuss my reality life online too much, but my actual job has approximately nothing to do with my hobby. Maybe someday enough people will click on IFCAR.net ads that I can live comfortably on just that income, but that day has not arrived.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on May 29, 2005, 01:25:11 PM
Go in and ask for the keys, it's easy.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 01:57:56 PM
I liked the review, and thought it was well done.  Just one question...was price the only reason that the Bimmer fell behind the Audi?  Because it doesnt seem to do anything better.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 01:59:47 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.? :angry:? lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?? Do you have some secret identity or something?!? :o? :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
Pretty much any dealership wants to sell cars, and if they see a well dressed man wishing to take a test-drive, they have no reason not to let him.  I dont believe you need special connections, or anything like that.  You need connections to test drive Maseratis, and Ferraris (if you are even able to do that at all).
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 01:59:52 PM
QuoteI liked the review, and thought it was well done.  Just one question...was price the only reason that the Bimmer fell behind the Audi?  Because it doesnt seem to do anything better.
That was it. The A8 had low-priced competence, and the 750i had high-priced excellence. And considering that competence by the standards of $80,000 cars is already excellence, the A8 came out ahead.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:01:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
Pretty much any dealership wants to sell cars, and if they see a well dressed man wishing to take a test-drive, they have no reason not to let him.  I dont believe you need special connections, or anything like that.  You need connections to test drive Maseratis, and Ferraris (if you are even able to do that at all).
Go frequently enough though, and they start to figure out that you aren't exactly there to buy a car. Thus, always take a different person with you when you go, if possible.  :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: giant_mtb on May 29, 2005, 02:02:35 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
Pretty much any dealership wants to sell cars, and if they see a well dressed man wishing to take a test-drive, they have no reason not to let him.  I dont believe you need special connections, or anything like that.  You need connections to test drive Maseratis, and Ferraris (if you are even able to do that at all).
Go frequently enough though, and they start to figure out that you aren't exactly there to buy a car. Thus, always take a different person with you when you go, if possible.  :lol:
You've got this all figured out, don't you.  :P  :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:03:56 PM
"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:04:52 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIronic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).
These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't. :lol:
Pretty much any dealership wants to sell cars, and if they see a well dressed man wishing to take a test-drive, they have no reason not to let him.  I dont believe you need special connections, or anything like that.  You need connections to test drive Maseratis, and Ferraris (if you are even able to do that at all).
Go frequently enough though, and they start to figure out that you aren't exactly there to buy a car. Thus, always take a different person with you when you go, if possible.  :lol:
You've got this all figured out, don't you.  :P  :lol:
To a science.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:06:23 PM
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:10:45 PM
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:14:34 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:18:18 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.? Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?? I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.
AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:21:58 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.
AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?
Yes. It's found here. (http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.ultraluxsedans.3rdplace.htm)  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:23:33 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.? Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?? I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.
AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?
Yes. It's found here. (http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.ultraluxsedans.3rdplace.htm)  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.
Lol :lol:

My point was that all the sport mags have found the 7er to be more sporty than the Jag.  I wouldnt go to CR for a sporty review. B)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:24:32 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.
The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.
C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.
Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.
AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?
Yes. It's found here. (http://ifcar.net/reviews.comparisons.ultraluxsedans.3rdplace.htm)  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.
Lol :lol:

My point was that all the sport mags have found the 7er to be more sporty than the Jag.  I wouldnt go to CR for a sporty review. B)
No one said that you should.  :blink:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:25:55 PM
Usually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:27:41 PM
QuoteUsually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.
Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 02:29:03 PM
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QuoteUsually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.
Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.
Did you get a chance to toss them around at higher speeds, or did you only drive them in normal ways?  (I guess you cant toss around a test drive car).  And I sent you another PM about the issue.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 02:33:39 PM
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QuoteUsually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.
Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.
Did you get a chance to toss them around at higher speeds, or did you only drive them in normal ways?  (I guess you cant toss around a test drive car).  And I sent you another PM about the issue.
Higher speeds meaning 80 mph? No. Higher speeds meaning highway speeds? Yes.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 04:37:00 PM
At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 04:37:39 PM
QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 04:47:17 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 04:52:52 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 04:53:50 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 04:56:33 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.
relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Lexus requires only the sacrifice of sporty handling, while too many of the others sacrifice comfort, refinement, and price. For most people, who don't necessarily require sporty handling, the LS430 makes the most sense.

And I would completely disagree with anyone who calls the ride overly soft, unless they just mean they'd prefer it firmer for additional agility, at which point I'd only partly disagree.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 04:57:09 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.
relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.
Its still 20K though.  Which is a big difference.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 04:57:53 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.
relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.
Its still 20K though.  Which is a big difference.
not for the buyer of a 80k car.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:05:13 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
A $15,000 price difference for comparably-equipped vehicles IS significant, especially to those who are already paying $70,000. The wealthy do not have unlimited funds either.

It is always very easy to keep going once you say "it's only a little more". Once you get up to $100K, "it's not so much more" up to a Mercedes S600, and from there on and on until you reach a Maybach.

You have to set a limit somewhere.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 05:05:42 PM
Let me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 05:06:59 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Maser is about 20K more.
if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.
Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.
A $15,000 price difference for comparably-equipped vehicles IS significant, especially to those who are already paying $70,000. The wealthy do not have unlimited funds either.

It is always very easy to keep going once you say "it's only a little more". Once you get up to $100K, "it's not so much more" up to a Mercedes S600, and from there on and on until you reach a Maybach.

You have to set a limit somewhere.
Well said.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:07:13 PM
QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
agreed. if someone actually has the money to blow 80k on a CAR, they're probably quite rich, with more money in the bank, so $20k won't seem like much to them.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 05:07:13 PM
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QuoteAt this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).
The Lexus requires only the sacrifice of sporty handling, while too many of the others sacrifice comfort, refinement, and price. For most people, who don't necessarily require sporty handling, the LS430 makes the most sense.

And I would completely disagree with anyone who calls the ride overly soft, unless they just mean they'd prefer it firmer for additional agility, at which point I'd only partly disagree.
Sounds to me that both the LS430 and 750li require only one sacrifice. With the LS430 it is a fun driving experience and with the 750li it is money. I personally think that at this level a car that you would enjoying driving is worth an extra $10,000.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 05:07:35 PM
QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:08:13 PM
Not all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:09:03 PM
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QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:09:37 PM
QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
must be up to their eyes in debt. :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 05:09:53 PM
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QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.? So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.
Lets say he was only planning on spending 80K, because he needed that 20K for something else.  Its not just 5K more, its a significant chunk of the car's value that he would be paying extra.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 05:13:48 PM
QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:13:58 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
must be up to their eyes in debt. :lol:
They are. Every one of them.

At least they have chosen to live in a relatively modest neighborhood. Many people who aren't that much more successful are living in million-dollar monster homes next to the country club or on the waterfront, and are still driving luxury cars.

Idiots.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 05:14:41 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
must be up to their eyes in debt. :lol:
They are. Every one of them.

At least they have chosen to live in a relatively modest neighborhood. Many people who aren't that much more successful are living in million-dollar monster homes next to the country club or on the waterfront, and are still driving luxury cars.

Idiots.
One day it will catch up to them.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:15:08 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:15:43 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
must be up to their eyes in debt. :lol:
They are. Every one of them.

At least they have chosen to live in a relatively modest neighborhood. Many people who aren't that much more successful are living in million-dollar monster homes next to the country club or on the waterfront, and are still driving luxury cars.

Idiots.
they must be drowning in debt!
they're probably waiting for the bank to repossess their belongings too. :rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:16:01 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
must be up to their eyes in debt. :lol:
They are. Every one of them.

At least they have chosen to live in a relatively modest neighborhood. Many people who aren't that much more successful are living in million-dollar monster homes next to the country club or on the waterfront, and are still driving luxury cars.

Idiots.
One day it will catch up to them.
Most definitely.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:17:08 PM
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QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.
Lets say he was only planning on spending 80K, because he needed that 20K for something else.  Its not just 5K more, its a significant chunk of the car's value that he would be paying extra.
usually buyers this high in the car buying range won't be nitpicking about $20k. if they like it, they'll buy it, and if the buyer really needed the $20k extra, then he really shouldn't be buying an $80k car, should he?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 05:18:53 PM
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QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.? So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.
Lets say he was only planning on spending 80K, because he needed that 20K for something else.  Its not just 5K more, its a significant chunk of the car's value that he would be paying extra.
usually buyers this high in the car buying range won't be nitpicking about $20k. if they like it, they'll buy it, and if the buyer really needed the $20k extra, then he really shouldn't be buying an $80k car, should he?
He shouldnt be buying the car, but as ifcar pointed out, not all luxury car buyers are responsible.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 05:22:08 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 05:23:53 PM
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QuoteLet me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.
I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.
True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.
Lets say he was only planning on spending 80K, because he needed that 20K for something else.  Its not just 5K more, its a significant chunk of the car's value that he would be paying extra.
usually buyers this high in the car buying range won't be nitpicking about $20k. if they like it, they'll buy it, and if the buyer really needed the $20k extra, then he really shouldn't be buying an $80k car, should he?
He shouldnt be buying the car, but as ifcar pointed out, not all luxury car buyers are responsible.
so he can be a little less responsible and get another $20k.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 05:33:53 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Catman on May 29, 2005, 06:05:05 PM
I would buy the Audi if I could.  That car has some serious presence on the road. :o  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 06:06:01 PM
QuoteI would buy the Audi if I could.  That car has some serious presence on the road. :o
not as much as a maserati. :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 06:06:50 PM
Quote
QuoteI would buy the Audi if I could.  That car has some serious presence on the road. :o
not as much as a maserati. :lol:
The Audi has a LOT of presence, but the maserati has more, simply because its a Maserati.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Colonel Cadillac on May 29, 2005, 07:04:27 PM
I have to say that I disagree with the "its just 20K" arguement. Let's remember back to Marth Stewart, she was going to lose $160,000 (or so), some number that was not nearly going to damage her net-worth even a percentage point, and yet she still made sure that all her shares were sold. This is the same way to those buying the 80K car, 20K is still a pretty big number in their minds.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 07:05:41 PM
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Quote
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 07:09:45 PM
The BMW would have at least placed second, since it was better than the Audi in every respect but price.  Hell, it might have even placed first.  That leaves the Lexus in about third.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 07:11:57 PM
QuoteThe BMW would have at least placed second, since it was better than the Audi in every respect but price.  Hell, it might have even placed first.  That leaves the Lexus in about third.
That is pretty much the same as my prediction.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 07:18:59 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?
If price wasn't a factor the order would probably be:

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
 
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 07:23:33 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?
If price wasn't a factor the order would probably be:

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
Oh wow, I didn't figure the S430 would move much if at all (though I didn't actually read it, I pretty much just clicked through it and looked at the pros and cons).  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 07:25:21 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?
If price wasn't a factor the order would probably be:

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
Oh wow, I didn't figure the S430 would move much if at all (though I didn't actually read it, I pretty much just clicked through it and looked at the pros and cons).
I've always liked the S-Class except for price. Great ride/handling combination, very comfortable seats, quite refined. And the new seven-speed auto helped acceleration and fuel economy this year.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 07:45:48 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?
If price wasn't a factor the order would probably be:

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
Oh wow, I didn't figure the S430 would move much if at all (though I didn't actually read it, I pretty much just clicked through it and looked at the pros and cons).
I've always liked the S-Class except for price. Great ride/handling combination, very comfortable seats, quite refined. And the new seven-speed auto helped acceleration and fuel economy this year.
it didnt feel old?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 07:50:03 PM
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QuoteNot all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.
First, the Maserati is my personal choice because it is worth $20,000 more to me and as I already explained if I was willing to spend $70,000 on one car I could probably afford pretty much any car because of my attitude towards money. Second, I don't even no how this got twisted into this argument as I never said the Quattroporte was better than the 750li (though, obviously enough, it is imho) I just said it was my choice.
I'm just pointing out that many luxury buyers don't have that sort of financial responsibility.
While that maybe I do have a hard time believing that a bank that is willing to loan someone $80k for a highly depreciating item like a vehicle won't loan that same person another $20k. And, the lack of finiancial responsibility of potential consumers shouldn't determine the result of a comparision test.
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that many people paying $70,000 for a car can't even afford that. Even they should be able to recognize that they can't go higher, and, judging by the LS430's popularity over the S-Class, many do not.
I get your point loud and clear, however, considering that the buyers of these cars should be able to purchase pretty much any car except for a handful of exotics (though, as you pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, though it should be) I don't think that price should be weighed too heavily when comparing them. Just out of curiousity, where would the LS430 have placed if price wasn't a factor?
If price wasn't a factor the order would probably be:

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
Oh wow, I didn't figure the S430 would move much if at all (though I didn't actually read it, I pretty much just clicked through it and looked at the pros and cons).
I've always liked the S-Class except for price. Great ride/handling combination, very comfortable seats, quite refined. And the new seven-speed auto helped acceleration and fuel economy this year.
it didnt feel old?
"Feel old"?  :rolleyes:

Try describing what exactly you mean.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 07:50:56 PM
Being that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 07:53:44 PM
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 08:02:32 PM
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 08:04:08 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
Not sure what that would have to do with age, but no, nothing serious like that.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 29, 2005, 08:04:39 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
If its a new car, then it shouldnt feel old, not matter when it came out.  The things you are describing come with usage of the car.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 29, 2005, 08:10:06 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
If its a new car, then it shouldnt feel old, not matter when it came out.  The things you are describing come with usage of the car.
Actually, older designs typically have weaker chassis(s) and are therefore more prone to flex. A lack of steering feel can develop over time as the various parts of the suspension get well worn, but it can also be present from the get go due to an outdated design. And, the biggest complaint I have heard about the S-class (besides price) that could at all be related to its age is its seating position? (don't recall ever hearing about chassis flex or poor steering feel)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 29, 2005, 08:11:53 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
If its a new car, then it shouldnt feel old, not matter when it came out.  The things you are describing come with usage of the car.
Actually, older designs typically have weaker chassis(s) and are therefore more prone to flex. A lack of steering feel can develop over time as the various parts of the suspension get well worn, but it can also be present from the get go due to an outdated design. And, the biggest complaint I have heard about the S-class (besides price) that could at all be related to its age is its seating position? (don't recall ever hearing about chassis flex or poor steering feel)
Car and Driver complained that the seating position was too high, but I like a high seating position myself.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 08:16:32 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteBeing that its been around for a long time, hes asking you if it felt old compared to other cars.
Again, what is "feeling old"?
chassis flex, muted handling feedback, etc.
Not sure what that would have to do with age, but no, nothing serious like that.
well, as the cars get newer, the chassis gets stiffer, etc, and the s-class is quite old, so i was asking about chassis flex, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 29, 2005, 10:37:03 PM
Hmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:

Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 10:37:51 PM
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 29, 2005, 10:42:23 PM
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 10:43:45 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 29, 2005, 10:47:02 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 29, 2005, 10:48:19 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
or a Sienna. I think ifcar likes comfort and luxury over sport. personal taste.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 30, 2005, 05:07:02 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.? What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 30, 2005, 05:23:03 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.
Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.  ;)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 30, 2005, 05:27:42 AM
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Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.? What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.
Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.  ;)
;) Got it

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 30, 2005, 05:31:48 AM
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Why was it chosen? It was the best-in-class in the following areas:

1. Comfort
Exceptionally smooth and absorbent ride, excellent seat comfort.

2. Refinement
The smoothest and the quietest.

Those are two of the most important aspects of a $70,000 luxury sedan.

It was also impressive, though not best-in-class, in the following areas:

3. Price
Second only to the A8 is gizmos for the dollar.

4. Acceleration
Not 750i quick, but still respectable.

5. Interior Quality
Behind the VW cousins, but still impressive.


And where does it fall behind?

1. Handling
Not fun to drive. While a serious flaw, especially compared to the others, each of the other cars also had serious flaws, and the LS's was deemed the least significant.

-The Phaeton had numerous serious flaws, including ride comfort, seat comfort, handling, and refinement.
-The S430 was extremely expensive, something like $20,000 more than a comparably-equipped LS430.
-The XJ8 was not as comfortable or refined as the standards of this class demand.
-The 750i had a very high price, probably $15,000-$20,000 more than a comparably-equipped LS430.
-The A8 had a stiff ride.
-The LS430 had soft handling.

By my standards, the LS430's flaws came out to be the least significant overall, especially considering where it stood out in other areas. You could also argue that it falls behind in styling, and I'd agree. However, styling was not a factor here.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 30, 2005, 05:33:07 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteHmm...the LS430 got first place.  What a surprise... :rolleyes:
that's cos Ifcar's a toyota troll...
It's dynamically inferior, and is only the best at isolating the driver from the road.  It wasn't chosen on the basis of "fun to drive" because my Passat is moreso...it couldn't have been chosen on luxury, since the A8 is built as well if not better, it couldn't have been spaciousness, since it's smaller than all the others, and it certainly couldn't have been styling, since it looks like a short wheelbase S class that's been inflated.  I don't understand the obsession--it's not fun to drive, it doesn't soak up bad road conditions particularly well (for example, the 750i has a firmer ride, but when fitted with the 18" rims is just as comfortable--even the 19" rims don't lower ride quality much).  All it really is is cheap, but then again, the XJ8, a vastly superior car is also cheap, relatively of course, and is not only more artful a sedan, but also leagues above dynamically.  Automobear's Car of the Bear 2004, by the way.
Raza, that's how ifcar is. You give him $100,000, and he'll go out straight to the toyota dealer and buy himself a Sienna. :rolleyes:
I'm not trying to hate on ifcar though--the LS430 is a good car, if you don't have much of a pulse, or your dream auto is a Town Car.
I agree with you, and Ifcar said the main reason was price.  Without price as a consideration, the LS would have fallen at least behind the Bimmer and Audi.
Not behind the Audi. Take another look at the order that I posted.  ;)
;) Got it

1. S430
2. 750i
3. LS430
4 & 5: A8 and XJ8, not sure which way
6. Phaeton
Correct. The Audi ended up as high as it did because of its price as well; without that factor it falls behind, too.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 30, 2005, 08:12:40 AM
If I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430

Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 30, 2005, 08:27:55 AM
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 30, 2005, 02:29:28 PM
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on May 30, 2005, 02:36:24 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
:D  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 30, 2005, 05:58:06 PM
Ifcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 30, 2005, 06:21:48 PM
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 30, 2005, 06:23:13 PM
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 30, 2005, 06:32:26 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.
It gets to 60 in 5.1 seconds (absolutely amazing!) and the Bimmer does it in 5.4.  Very close numbers.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 30, 2005, 06:33:54 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
on price, yes, and it could've given the BMW a run for it's money in performance.
It gets to 60 in 5.1 seconds (absolutely amazing!) and the Bimmer does it in 5.4.  Very close numbers.
it would've been a great car to include in its comparo, because the Super v8 @ $90,000 is what takes on the 760li, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 30, 2005, 06:35:00 PM
Take availability into account...Maybe he couldnt drive one.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 30, 2005, 06:36:17 PM
QuoteTake availability into account...Maybe he couldnt drive one.
:shrugs: i'll ask him later.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 30, 2005, 07:23:37 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 30, 2005, 07:25:03 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:42:37 AM
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 31, 2005, 07:15:46 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Ford 500?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on May 31, 2005, 11:04:35 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Ford 500?
The only part of the Five Hundred that looks at all like the Passat is the roof arch, but other that they are completely different.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 31, 2005, 12:45:50 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Ford 500?
The only part of the Five Hundred that looks at all like the Passat is the roof arch, but other that they are completely different.
That's what you think.  I see alot of Passat in it.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 31, 2005, 03:40:27 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 03:42:05 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.  750i
2.  XJ8
3.  S430
4.  Phaeton
5.  A8
6.  LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.
I'm inclined to agree there. The interior and exterior are the car's strongest points IMO. It also has the exclusivity factor, it's the least common of these six.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 31, 2005, 03:51:12 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIf I were to rate them, I'd say:

1.? 750i
2.? XJ8
3.? S430
4.? Phaeton
5.? A8
6.? LS430
That is pretty much my order, except I would switch the Phaeton with the A8.
Snob   ;)

I put the Phaeton there because it offers 90% of the fun of the A8 at a much lower price.
I put the Phaeton there because it is way too bland for a car that expensive.
yeah, it looks like a bloated passat.
Not at all, IMO.  If you've seen one in person, it looks extremely classy and very well put together.  Solid car.
I'm inclined to agree there. The interior and exterior are the car's strongest points IMO. It also has the exclusivity factor, it's the least common of these six.
I'm sure thats not how it was intended ;) , but VW sells very little of these.  The car looks brilliant in person, and almost has as much presence or more than an A8.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:09:40 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:13:08 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:15:03 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:21:25 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:24:57 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:27:37 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:28:55 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.
so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:40:40 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.
so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?
Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:41:31 PM
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QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.
so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?
Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.
nvm... makes sense. just asked that because i'm more oriented with sport. :praise:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: SJ_GTI on May 31, 2005, 05:54:38 PM
Ifcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:55:13 PM
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QuoteIfcar: why didn't you test the XJR? It has an MSRP of around $76k, still cheaper than the BMW...
I'm sure it goes higher with options, and that puts it at a high price.  Even still, he wasnt testing the S600 or the A8 6.0 or the 760i.  The XJR doesnt really belong with the other cars.  Of course you could always argue it belongs based on price alone.
The XJR might have fit in, but there weren't going to be two Jag XJs in the comparo. And the standard version competes more directly with the other five vehicels.
Just the XJR, not the XJ too. and this may be imo, but i think it's the perfect competitor regarding price, performance, and luxury. besides, as i've said befor,e the Super V8 competes with the higher 760li, etc.
And the regular XJ8 competes with the S430. What's your point?
my point is that the XJR would've competed more favorable agains the other rivals (maybe not in price, but in everything else), and not be the most expensive car. In otherwords, it'd be the perfect car to test.
It would also lose out in comfort and refinement, the XJR is geared decidedly towards sport over comfort.
:shrugs: what about the BMW? wouldn't it have scored higher than that?
Nope. The BMW offers a better balance of sport and comfort/refinement even than the standard XJ8 L; the XJR would be worse off in that area.
so you're saying if you tested the XJR, it've scored less?
Almost certainly. Refinement and comfort take top priority over sport IMO among ultra-luxury sedans, and coupling a loss in those areas with a greatly diminished price advantage, the XJR would have ended up behind the S430.
nvm... makes sense. just asked that because i'm more oriented with sport. :praise:
Judging by the sales of the XJR vs. the others (notably the least-sporty Lexus) the average consumer looking for that type of vehicle favors comfort over sport, which is why the comparison test was weighted that way.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:55:32 PM
QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
IFCAR likes quiet and numb. :rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 05:56:45 PM
QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 05:57:44 PM
Quote
QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
i have. refined as in how smooth it is while turning and transitions, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: SJ_GTI on May 31, 2005, 05:58:49 PM
Quote
QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 06:00:01 PM
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Quote
QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
disconnection with the road, spongy handling, isolation, etc.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: SJ_GTI on May 31, 2005, 06:00:43 PM
PS I don't disagree with using the standard XJ8(L), but I don't think it makes sense to call and XJR less refined than the standard XJ8. If anything I would expect it to be more refined.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 06:16:07 PM
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 06:24:02 PM
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.
well, you're just a wierd guy! :lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on May 31, 2005, 06:38:08 PM
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Quote
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.
well, you're just a wierd guy! :lol:
:rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 06:39:34 PM
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.
well, you're just a wierd guy! :lol:
:rolleyes:
<_<  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 31, 2005, 07:28:49 PM
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.
well, you're just a wierd guy! :lol:
:rolleyes:
<_<
:ph34r:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 07:29:21 PM
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Quote
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QuoteIfcar, how do you define refinement? Apparently it is different for me.

For me a car's refinement is going to be how well it handles transitions, or surprises, in situations that aren't just normal everyday occurance. For instance, how a car handles road imperfections while making a spirited turn.

I bring this up because while I see your point about the XJ losing some comfort points in "R" trim, but if anything it will be a more refined, sophisticated car able to handle changing conditions even better.

To me it sounds like you are using refined as a synonym for "quiet and numb."
I'm using "refined" to mean "smoother/quieter", not more agile. Never heard it used that way before.
I didn't say more agile. My Z3 was far more agile than my A4 but less refined. In simpler terms my Z3 could be tossed around corners far faster than my A4, but it sufferred from things like bump steer, sudden oversteer, etc...

Know what I mean?

If smoother/quieter is refinement, what is comfort?
Refinement: Noise levels, including the engine sound (I meant engine smoothness, not ride smoothness, in case that confused you there)
Comfort: Ride smoothness, control, and absorbency, and seat room and shape.

I certainly wouldn't classify anything handling-related in either of those areas.
well, you're just a wierd guy! :lol:
:rolleyes:
<_<
:ph34r:
???
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 31, 2005, 07:42:31 PM
Dont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 07:55:34 PM
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
i WAS on topic.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on May 31, 2005, 07:58:16 PM
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
i WAS on topic.
I wasnt specifically talking to you... ;)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 07:59:19 PM
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QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
i WAS on topic.
I wasnt specifically talking to you... ;)
you could've added a smiley! :angry:
:lol:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 31, 2005, 08:06:08 PM
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 08:07:27 PM
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on May 31, 2005, 08:11:15 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on May 31, 2005, 08:12:41 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
it's still a nice ride, just not as cool as an XJR.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on June 01, 2005, 06:25:48 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 06:30:54 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on June 01, 2005, 06:53:48 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
there is? never heard of that before.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 10:03:15 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
there is? never heard of that before.
A 80 year old will buy a BMW 3 series, but a 20 year old will never buy a Buick Century.  Thats basically the logic of the saying.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: R33 GT-R on June 01, 2005, 10:06:01 AM
How about don't shit where you eat.    :P  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 10:07:43 AM
QuoteHow about don't shit where you eat.    :P
huh?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on June 01, 2005, 02:25:59 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on June 01, 2005, 02:40:18 PM
QuoteHow about don't shit where you eat.    :P
That's also a good piece of advice.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on June 01, 2005, 02:41:15 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.
Responsiveness...I'm not asking for all of them to be Caterhams, I just want some feeling and some confidence in its athleticism.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on June 01, 2005, 02:51:55 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.
Responsiveness...I'm not asking for all of them to be Caterhams, I just want some feeling and some confidence in its athleticism.
But I would assume that you don't consider yourself to be the typical consumer.  ;)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on June 01, 2005, 02:53:03 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.
Responsiveness...I'm not asking for all of them to be Caterhams, I just want some feeling and some confidence in its athleticism.
But I would assume that you don't consider yourself to be the typical consumer.  ;)
That's true.  But even my father hated the LS430's driving characteristics.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on June 01, 2005, 02:53:36 PM
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QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.
Responsiveness...I'm not asking for all of them to be Caterhams, I just want some feeling and some confidence in its athleticism.
But I would assume that you don't consider yourself to be the typical consumer.  ;)
Cars can have smooth, quiet rides and still be fun to drive,and, from your review it sounds like the BMW came closest to doing that.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: ifcar on June 01, 2005, 03:25:02 PM
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QuoteDont turn this thread into smiley whoring...let get back on topic.
Sorry.  I thought it was going that way, and it's hard to fight--like the current in the ocean.

Anyway, the LS430 is outclassed in this class.  It belongs with the old Deville and Town Car.  It's the best of those, though.
the LS is a great car. pretty ingenious features.
It's an old person mobile.
Which age group did you think could afford to buy an $80,000 vehicle? MOST luxury sedans are bought mostly by the middle-aged and up.
He means the style of driving...and LS is very laid back.  Theres a saying, and old man will buy a young mans car, but a young man will never buy a old mans car.
While that may be the case, not all young people are going after sporty handling.
Responsiveness...I'm not asking for all of them to be Caterhams, I just want some feeling and some confidence in its athleticism.
But I would assume that you don't consider yourself to be the typical consumer.  ;)
Cars can have smooth, quiet rides and still be fun to drive,and, from your review it sounds like the BMW came closest to doing that.
The BMW and Mercedes both came close, but for $20,000 more they aren't going to win.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 07:07:32 PM
Well that brings us to the price argument again.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on June 01, 2005, 07:08:48 PM
QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 07:10:07 PM
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on June 01, 2005, 07:39:15 PM
Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 07:48:04 PM
Quote
Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on June 01, 2005, 07:48:40 PM
Quote
Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
$30k diff. and the wierd thing is that the audi won! :o  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 01, 2005, 07:49:12 PM
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Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
$30k diff. and the wierd thing is that the audi won! :o
Yup.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raghavan on June 01, 2005, 07:52:47 PM
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
$30k diff. and the wierd thing is that the audi won! :o
Yup.
:rolleyes:  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on June 08, 2005, 10:48:47 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Probably because those three are the large luxury cars that would most likely be purchased by high style people. So, I suspect that styling probably played a bigger role than anything else in determining the outcome.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 09, 2005, 02:28:43 PM
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Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Probably because those three are the large luxury cars that would most likely be purchased by high style people. So, I suspect that styling probably played a bigger role than anything else in determining the outcome.
Do you think styling should play an outcome?  All the sedans undoubtedly have lots of road presence, so its just a question of which one you like more, which is totally subjective.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on June 09, 2005, 02:29:46 PM
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Quote
Quote
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Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Probably because those three are the large luxury cars that would most likely be purchased by high style people. So, I suspect that styling probably played a bigger role than anything else in determining the outcome.
Do you think styling should play an outcome?  All the sedans undoubtedly have lots of road presence, so its just a question of which one you like more, which is totally subjective.
I agree with that, but I think the point of the comparo was to compare the large luxury cars that the rich and famous would most likely buy.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 09, 2005, 02:41:35 PM
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Probably because those three are the large luxury cars that would most likely be purchased by high style people. So, I suspect that styling probably played a bigger role than anything else in determining the outcome.
Do you think styling should play an outcome?  All the sedans undoubtedly have lots of road presence, so its just a question of which one you like more, which is totally subjective.
I agree with that, but I think the point of the comparo was to compare the large luxury cars that the rich and famous would most likely buy.
But who are they to say that an actor (just an example) would want an A8 over a Jaguar just because of they styling.  Styling is subjective, and should be left that way.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: TBR on June 09, 2005, 02:47:17 PM
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Quote
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Quote
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QuoteWell that brings us to the price argument again.
i wanted to add something interesting: MT did a comaparo between an Audi A8, a jag super v8, and a maserati quattroporte.
So?  I believe the A8 was a W12, although I'm not totally sure.  And even still, it just reinforces the notion that the Jag Super competes with cars like the Quattraporte.
as i said, so iffy could've compared teh XJR, but apparently, his opinion and my opinion on comfort vary, so whatever.
and the A8 was a V8. ;)
I see.  I dont know why MT would do that comparo, being that the Audi is cheaper than the others by a lot.
Probably because those three are the large luxury cars that would most likely be purchased by high style people. So, I suspect that styling probably played a bigger role than anything else in determining the outcome.
Do you think styling should play an outcome?  All the sedans undoubtedly have lots of road presence, so its just a question of which one you like more, which is totally subjective.
I agree with that, but I think the point of the comparo was to compare the large luxury cars that the rich and famous would most likely buy.
But who are they to say that an actor (just an example) would want an A8 over a Jaguar just because of they styling.  Styling is subjective, and should be left that way.
I never said that was the only determining factor, just that more weight was probably put on it than normal. I was saying that the reason those particular cars were selected for the comparision was probably because of their styling.  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on June 09, 2005, 05:05:18 PM
Styling is subjective, but design is not.  

To use Robert Cumberford's example, the 300C is a car that is designed well and styled poorly, whereas the the SSR is styled well (somewhat, in his opinion) and designed poorly.  

The subject needs to be addressed.  In my reviews, (though I've yet to do a full blown comparo) I pretty much always address styling and design, whether it be good or bad (Porsche, Scion, whatever).  
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: BMWDave on June 10, 2005, 05:43:31 AM
QuoteStyling is subjective, but design is not.  

To use Robert Cumberford's example, the 300C is a car that is designed well and styled poorly, whereas the the SSR is styled well (somewhat, in his opinion) and designed poorly.  

The subject needs to be addressed.  In my reviews, (though I've yet to do a full blown comparo) I pretty much always address styling and design, whether it be good or bad (Porsche, Scion, whatever).
Where do you draw the thin line between subjective styling and non subjective "design"?
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: Raza on June 10, 2005, 01:25:02 PM
Quote
QuoteStyling is subjective, but design is not. 

To use Robert Cumberford's example, the 300C is a car that is designed well and styled poorly, whereas the the SSR is styled well (somewhat, in his opinion) and designed poorly. 

The subject needs to be addressed.  In my reviews, (though I've yet to do a full blown comparo) I pretty much always address styling and design, whether it be good or bad (Porsche, Scion, whatever).
Where do you draw the thin line between subjective styling and non subjective "design"?
Design is more mathematical, more proportional.  Take the Mona Lisa:  Great design, bad styling (that is, she's ugly).  Golden rectangles, you know.
Title: IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans
Post by: thewizard16 on June 11, 2005, 05:57:58 PM
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QuoteWhere the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o  :lol:
Online, I'm IFCAR, but offline I'm Bill Ford.  :rolleyes:
<_<

Seriously though...how do you get all these chances to drive all these cars?
ditch the car somewhere, dress up nicely, walk into the dealership and request a test-drive. :rolleyes:
Interestingly, there is an art to "acting rich". It's exceptionally good at getting test drives of expensive cars. I've noticed that friendly, but uncompromising, and a bit impatient are often good ways to come across. Acting insulted if they inquire about money helps too. Also, ifcar is right. The rich don't wear suits everywhere, they more often than not seem to dress down. The only billionaire I know wears blue jeans and a polo shirt everywhere. I mean, dress nice, but not formal nice.

That said, I REALLY want to go drive the cars from this test.