With the announcement that McLaren and Mercedes have severed ties on their street legal supercar development program, there are rumours that McLaren is set to develop a successor to the F1 supercar, and the intention is to once again build the greatest driver's car ever built.
What do you think the car's specs should look like?
I am hoping for the following:
1. central driving position
2. 725 hp variable vane twin turbo flywheel-less BMW V8
3. carbon fibre, titanium, and magnesium construction
4. 2200 lbs max weight
5. RWD
6. Mid engine
7. 6 speed manual or 7 speed F1 style paddle shifting
Except for the engine, I think I just described the F1. :mask: :rockon:
An F1 with a 7-speed DSG-type transmission and more power styled a little differently and with even more advanced materials. All-aluminum engine maybe?
Make it faster than the old one.
QuoteMake it faster than the old one.
More importantly, faster than the Veyron
Right.
This seems like a really big risk. If you are Mclaren do you retire on top with one of the best super cars of all time, or do you try to best yourself and chance falling on your face?
Not that big of a risk. To me, Jordan's carrer isn't tarnished because of those last few seasons with Washington.
Are you talking about the Caparo T1?
(http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/04/17-caparo-t1/Caparo-T1-2-lg.jpg)
Quote from: 850CSi on May 31, 2007, 11:08:35 AM
More importantly, faster than the Veyron
The Veyron is an amazing piece of machinery.
Quote from: Lebowski on May 31, 2007, 12:00:18 PM
Fixed it.
If you appreciate it for what it's meant to be, it's a fine machine. It's fast as hell, very attractive, and packed with creature comforts. The Saleen S7 doesn't have any creature comforts, and feelds like a wild animal. The Veyron can be a comfortable cruiser as well.
Quote from: Payman on May 31, 2007, 11:41:56 AM
Are you talking about the Caparo T1?
(http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/04/17-caparo-t1/Caparo-T1-2-lg.jpg)
That's not a McLaren although designed by Gordon Murray.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on May 31, 2007, 12:10:48 PM
If you appreciate it for what it's meant to be, it's a fine machine. It's fast as hell, very attractive, and packed with creature comforts. The Saleen S7 doesn't have any creature comforts, and feelds like a wild animal. The Veyron can be a comfortable cruiser as well.
I agree, everyone rags in the Veyron, saying it's too heavy, too ugly, can't handle etc etc. But every review of people that have actually driven the Veyron, well they've all been absolutely floored by it.
Here's what C&D said.
"We've never driven any other car that achieves and maintains high speeds so confidently and effortlessly. Veyrons will never be commonplace and will surely be decorating the 18th fairway at Pebble Beach within the next few decades. If any automobile is worth more than a million bucks, we're happy to nominate the Veyron 16.4."
Here is what R&T said.
" However, we'll let renowned McLaren F1 designer Gordon Murray share his expert opinion on engineering and styling of the Veyron in the following pages. I'll focus on what it is like to drive this amazing exotic during the car's introduction in Sicily. In three words:
Amazing!
Thrilling!
Un-be-liev-able!"
And finally here is what MT said.
"Comparisons with the Ferrari Enzo, Maserati MC12, Mercedes-Benz SLR, and the McLaren F1 of a decade ago are inevitable but irrelevant"
"Bugatti has delivered on every one of the Veyron's considerable promises. It meets the criteria set forth by Chairman Piech when it was announced and does so with aplomb. Luxurious, elegant, imposing, exclusive, crazy expensive, and mind-bendingly fast, the Veyron sets a new high watermark for grand-touring transport."
And Jeremy Clarkson was ranting and raving like a maniac about the Veyron, and he said that the saddest thing of all was that after his test, he'll probably never get to drive it again.
Haters can sit around all day blowing hot air about a car they've never driven and never will drive, but I'm gonna accept the opinions of the lucky people who did drive the beast because I will never have the pleasure of driving it myself.
QuoteIf you appreciate it for what it's meant to be, it's a fine machine. It's fast as hell, very attractive, and packed with creature comforts. The Saleen S7 doesn't have any creature comforts, and feelds like a wild animal. The Veyron can be a comfortable cruiser as well.
It's one of the ugliest "supercars" ever built and weighs as much as a 5-Series. I don't see what's so special about an engine that's kept going by FOUR turbochargers. With VW's budget on that thing, you could do anything.
If I want creature comforts, I'll buy an S-Class at a tenth of the cost.
Quote from: 850CSi on May 31, 2007, 01:12:53 PM
I don't see what's so special about an engine that's kept going by FOUR turbochargers.
Actually, that is extremely impressive.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 31, 2007, 10:16:39 AM
With the announcement that McLaren and Mercedes have severed ties on their street legal supercar development program, there are rumours that McLaren is set to develop a successor to the F1 supercar, and the intention is to once again build the greatest driver's car ever built.
What do you think the car's specs should look like?
I am hoping for the following:
1. central driving position
2. 725 hp variable vane twin turbo flywheel-less BMW V8
3. carbon fibre, titanium, and magnesium construction
4. 2200 lbs max weight
5. RWD
6. Mid engine
7. 6 speed manual or 7 speed F1 style paddle shifting
Except for the engine, I think I just described the F1. :mask: :rockon:
All the above except F/I. Should be N/A IMO.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 31, 2007, 02:15:54 PM
All the above except F/I. Should be N/A IMO.
I like NA myself, but those variable vane turbos seem to have eliminated all the negative effects of turbocharging.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 31, 2007, 02:20:58 PM
I like NA myself, but those variable vane turbos seem to have eliminated all the negative effects of turbocharging.
They are quite good! :D
Quote from: Champ on May 31, 2007, 11:15:37 AM
This seems like a really big risk.?
McLaren put their reputation on the line every couple of weeks. They're a racing company. Risk is what they do (I'm pleased to say).
They should have stuck to their guns in the first place and insisted the SLR be mid-(rear)-engined. Compromising there when they should have stood up to the Merc paymasters has proved to be the real mistake which has tarnished the McName.
Quote from: Tave on May 31, 2007, 11:19:43 AM
Not that big of a risk. To me, Jordan's carrer isn't tarnished because of those last few seasons with Washington.
for a minute there I thought you meant Eddie Jordan.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on May 31, 2007, 11:53:14 AM
The Veyron is an amazing piece of machinery.
You're right but thats all it is. A piece of machinery; it's an engineering marvel and that's all.
Please get rid of the center driving position.
And why the V8 and no V12?
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:13:15 AM
Please get rid of the center driving position.
Sacrilege! :nono:
Quote from: Tave on June 01, 2007, 09:22:20 AM
Sacrilege! :nono:
Why? Would you like the harder ingress/egress just for a wierd driving position?
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:23:25 AM
Why? Would you like the harder ingress/egress just for a purer wierd driving position?
Fixed, and yes I would. The car's so small anyway it's not like it even matters.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:23:25 AM
Why? Would you like the harder ingress/egress just for a wierd driving position?
Weird? It's the purest driving position you can possibly get. BTW, these specs are what I want to see, not what McLaren will be doing, so the TT V8 probably won't happen.
Quote from: Tave on June 01, 2007, 09:26:11 AM
Fixed, and yes I would. The car's so small anyway it's not like it even matters.
How is it purer?
Wierder...
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:29:07 AM
How is it purer?
Wierder...
Centre of the car. You sit right at the rotational axis so you don't experience any body roll and you are also the same distance from both sides of the car. Who wouldn't want to sit in the middle? It would be like driving a race car.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:29:07 AM
How is it purer?
The car is dynamically balanced latitudally regardless of the driver's weight. Have you noticed how cars behave differently turning left opposed to turning right? This one would provide the same corning feel independent of the direction. You'd also be in a better position to judge the apexes of right-handed curves.
I'm really amazed that I have to explain
WHY anyone would prefer a center-driving position to another car guy. :devil:
Quote from: Tave on June 01, 2007, 09:34:32 AM
The car is dynamically balanced latitudally regardless of the driver's weight. Have you noticed how cars behave differently turning left opposed to turning right? This one would provide the same corning feel independent of the direction. You'd also be in a better position to judge the apexes of right-handed curves.
I'm really amazed that I have to explain WHY anyone would prefer a center-driving position to another car guy. :devil:
That's why people stick the battery in the trunk opposite to the driver's side. Plus you're a n00b if you can't judge apexes of right-hand turns. :nono:
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:36:59 AM
That's why people stick the battery in the trunk opposite to the driver's side. Plus you're a n00b if you can't judge apexes of right-hand turns. :nono:
You are the noob. :rolleyes:
Quote from: HEMI666 on June 01, 2007, 09:38:51 AM
You are the noob. :rolleyes:
Why, because I don't like the "centre" driving position? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:39:51 AM
Why, because I don't like the "centre" driving position? :rolleyes:
No, because you don't like it for illogical reasons.
Whatever man. The only reason other manufacturers don't do it is packaging. The seat position is one of my favorite aspects of the original car. Anyone with half a brain can understand why.
I can understand why you like it, i just don't like middlehand drive.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 01, 2007, 09:36:59 AM
That's why people stick the battery in the trunk opposite to the driver's side. Plus you're a n00b if you can't judge apexes of right-hand turns. :nono:
OOOoooo, them's awfully tall words comming from a BOY who doesn't even have a car. Let's do an experiment: when you finally DO get a car bring it out to Laramie and we'll see if you can keep up on Roger's Canyon Road.
Or, for that matter, on the alternating right and left handers between Lewis and Harney or Lewis and Ivinson. My friend couldn't in his Teg.
QuoteWhatever man. The only reason other manufacturers don't do it is packaging. The seat position is one of my favorite aspects of the original car. Anyone with half a brain can understand why.
+1
Quote from: Tave on June 01, 2007, 09:46:37 AM
OOOoooo, them's awfully tall words comming from a BOY who doesn't even have a car. Let's do an experiment: when you finally DO get a car bring it out to Laramie and we'll see if you can keep up on Roger's Canyon Road.
Or, for that matter, on the alternating right and left handers between Lewis and Harney or Lewis and Ivinson. My friend couldn't in his Teg.
Years of video gamez have given me supreme reflexes and judging abilitiez. :praise:
Quote from: JYODER240 on June 01, 2007, 08:18:56 AM
You're right but thats all it is. A piece of machinery; it's an engineering marvel and that's all.
I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. It's Superhero fast, super rare, and it's an engineering marvel that puts the ultimate smile on the face of anyone lucky enough to drive it.
And "that's all"? Shit, you'd think you were driving an Enzo instead of a coupe on a warmed-over sedan platform shared with a crossover sport ute. :rolleyes:
565's post was dead on: if any of you "Veyron haters" got the chance to experience one, I'd bet you'd change your tune. Sure it's expensive, but it's not the same kind of car as the S7 or the Enzo or the F1, and it's not fair to judge the car based on the same expectations. It's like complaining that the Cadillac CTS-V doesn't perform as well as the Z06. Having said that, the Veyron is a LOT faster around a track than you people give it credit for. And yes, it's a straight line MONSTER. "Only 1000hp? And that's not impressive because it uses FOUR TURBOS!" Sure, and there are
so many THOUSAND HP QUAD TURBO V16 cars on the road, there's nothing special about this one. :rolleyes:
Any car that can leave Jeremy Clarkeson speechless is impressive for that fact alone. :lol:
And I'm just ribbing you about your car, JYODER, I have no beef with you or your 350Z. :mrcool:
I don't care much about the driving position, but I think that making a new car even faster than the bugatti would probably compromise the driving experience.? I would say make the car redline limited to about 220mph or so, and make it great by being unbelievably fast at nurburgring and other famous tracks.? ?
The old car had a 6064cc v12, 7500rpm redline, ~600hp, 479lb-ft, and the car weighed about 2600lbs (as tested by C/D).? And that was 15 years ago.
I'd like to see something like this:
As tested weight, under 2750lbs
7.0L V12 8000-8500rpm redline
750hp+
550lb-ft+
over 450lb-ft from really low, like 2500rpm
rwd
good weight distribution
and a dsg/smg tranny.?
2750 lb is way too much.. target weight should be under 2000lb! Anything more is too heavy!
The key to a good sports car is acceleration, handling and braking, adding power only enhances one thing, acceleration, which reduciing weight enhances all 3.. so lower weight!
Quote from: NomisR on June 04, 2007, 02:54:39 PM
2750 lb is way too much.. target weight should be under 2000lb!? Anything more is too heavy!
The F1 had a curb weight of 2200 and the car was made entirely out of carbon fibre, titanium, and magnusium. They had a target weight of 2000 lbs and couldn't meet it.
Quote from: mojammer on June 04, 2007, 12:59:37 PM
The old car had a 6064cc v12, 7500rpm redline, ~600hp, 479lb-ft, and the car weighed about 2600lbs (as tested by C/D).? And that was 15 years ago.
The F1 had a 2200 lbs curb weight and the car had 627 hp.
Quote from: HEMI666 on June 04, 2007, 03:22:48 PM
The F1 had a curb weight of 2200 and the car was made entirely out of carbon fibre, titanium, and magnusium.? They had a target weight of 2000 lbs and couldn't meet it.
Sure it can.. smaller car.. just trim the engine weight..
Quote from: NomisR on June 04, 2007, 03:33:57 PM
Sure it can.. smaller car.. just trim the engine weight..
Have you ever seen a McLaren F1 in person? It's a very small car. I sat in one and I was blown away by how small that car is. It's only 11" longer then a Miata and it is actually 5" lower then a Miata.
Quote from: HEMI666 on June 04, 2007, 03:46:18 PM
Have you ever seen a McLaren F1 in person?? It's a very small car.? I sat in one and I was blown away by how small that car is.? It's only 11" longer then a Miata and it is actually 5" lower then a Miata.
Yeah I know it's small, but again, most of the weight's certainly not in the body work. With technology today, I'm sure they can get the weight down to 2000lb if they try hard enough. Hell, I can get my car a lot lighter if I went all carbon fiber too, so if they went with something similar to a Lotus Chasis except with a all carbon fiber, it's achievable.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 31, 2007, 10:16:39 AM
2. 725 hp variable vane twin turbo flywheel-less BMW V8
I heard a rumor that McLaren & co. is working on such turbos attached to a BMW 6-liter V12, intending to produce in excess of 850hp.
Making it too light will compromise high-speed stability.
Quote from: 850CSi on June 04, 2007, 05:06:47 PM
Making it too light will compromise high-speed stability.
You can just get a buttload of downforce. I remember the Mclaren F1 had things like fans to help suck it to the ground.
Quote from: 565 on June 04, 2007, 06:14:36 PM
You can just get a buttload of downforce.? I remember the Mclaren F1 had things like fans to help suck it to the ground.
Yeah, just tons of downforce and tons of HP to compensate for the downforce for top speed... :ohyeah:
Quote from: NomisR on June 04, 2007, 03:55:41 PM
Yeah I know it's small, but again, most of the weight's certainly not in the body work. With technology today, I'm sure they can get the weight down to 2000lb if they try hard enough. Hell, I can get my car a lot lighter if I went all carbon fiber too, so if they went with something similar to a Lotus Chasis except with a all carbon fiber, it's achievable.
I wouldn't be putting 700+ hp into a bonded chassis.
Quote from: 565 on June 04, 2007, 06:14:36 PM
You can just get a buttload of downforce.? I remember the Mclaren F1 had things like fans to help suck it to the ground.
Drag. You can't beat the laws of aerodynamics. The old F1's weight was probably just about perfect IMO.
Quote from: 850CSi on June 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Drag. You can't beat the laws of aerodynamics. The old F1's weight was probably just about perfect IMO.
You can beat the laws of aerodynamics. With more power.
Quote from: HEMI666 on May 31, 2007, 10:16:39 AM
With the announcement that McLaren and Mercedes have severed ties on their street legal supercar development program, there are rumours that McLaren is set to develop a successor to the F1 supercar, and the intention is to once again build the greatest driver's car ever built.
What do you think the car's specs should look like?
I am hoping for the following:
1. central driving position
2. 725 hp variable vane twin turbo flywheel-less BMW V8
3. carbon fibre, titanium, and magnesium construction
4. 2200 lbs max weight
5. RWD
6. Mid engine
7. 6 speed manual or 7 speed F1 style paddle shifting
Except for the engine, I think I just described the F1. :mask: :rockon:
HEMI666:? ?The Nethead here's back from family time in Awfucket.? ?Memorial Day's big in our family due to the number of veterans amongst the men (my late father was in the Marines in the South Pacific from Guadalcanal through some months of the occupation of Japan, my late maternal uncle lost half a leg at Normandy, a late maternal uncle-by-marriage was career Air Force, a first cousin was also one term in the Air Force, his late brother and I each did one term in the Army, another first cousin once removed is in the Coast Guard and his brother will join in September, and my late maternal grandfather joined the Army but World War 1 ended while he was in basic training so the entire basic training battalion was discharged).?
But I digress...it's time to go turboshaft in exotics.? They cost like Hell anyway so why not advance the breed with a helicopter turboshaft??
In my lifetime, I don't think any single car dominated its class like Andy Granatelli's 1967 turboshaft Indy racer driven by--of course--
Parnelli Jones :clap:? ? The engine was a civil helicopter turboshaft of around 1500 HP, and it had about a quarter-lap lead by the end of the first lap!? It was beyond utter domination!? A gear in the transmission broke late in the race or it would have won in what would have been the greatest upset in modern automotive history.? USAC immediately placed huge restrictions upon turboshaft engines--and after the Lotus-turboshafts dominated the 1968 race even with the hugely-restricted turboshaft engines, 4WD was also banned by USAC because the turboshafts produced so much power that only 4WD could get it all to the pavement.?
With forty more years of development, today's turboshaft engines would produce colossal supercars.? They would probably require AWD or all that power would go up in smoke.? McLaren might just be the people to make all this work--the Lotus engineers that produced the magnificent 1968 Lotus Indy cars have all retired or died.? Turboshafts use a version of diesel fuel, too, although they're thirsty...Still to be solved is the issue of exhaust heat--turboshaft exhaust is extremely hot, and turboshafts put out tremendous amounts of exhaust.? The Indy turboshafts exhausted upwards to prevent frying the racecars behind them.? I dunno if a streetable version of the upwards exhaust would be practical--the EPA, the NHTSA, and who knows who else would whine about some detail or other, but that's to be expected.? Australia may be the only country with the technology and the laws to make turboshaft streetcars a reality.
It would be? Do explain. I'm intrigued.
Quote from: NomisR on June 04, 2007, 02:54:39 PM
2750 lb is way too much.. target weight should be under 2000lb! Anything more is too heavy!
The key to a good sports car is acceleration, handling and braking, adding power only enhances one thing, acceleration, which reduciing weight enhances all 3.. so lower weight!
lotus owners. :rolleyes: :lol:
Quote from: FordSVT on June 03, 2007, 07:20:46 AM
I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. It's Superhero fast, super rare, and it's an engineering marvel that puts the ultimate smile on the face of anyone lucky enough to drive it.
And "that's all"? Shit, you'd think you were driving an Enzo instead of a coupe on a warmed-over sedan platform shared with a crossover sport ute.? :rolleyes:
565's post was dead on: if any of you "Veyron haters" got the chance to experience one, I'd bet you'd change your tune. Sure it's expensive, but it's not the same kind of car as the S7 or the Enzo or the F1, and it's not fair to judge the car based on the same expectations. It's like complaining that the Cadillac CTS-V doesn't perform as well as the Z06. Having said that, the Veyron is a LOT faster around a track than you people give it credit for. And yes, it's a straight line MONSTER. "Only 1000hp? And that's not impressive because it uses FOUR TURBOS!" Sure, and there are so many THOUSAND HP QUAD TURBO V16 cars on the road, there's nothing special about this one.? :rolleyes:
Any car that can leave Jeremy? Clarkeson speechless is impressive for that fact alone.? :lol:
And I'm just ribbing you about your car, JYODER, I have no beef with you or your 350Z.? ?:mrcool:
I'm not saying that it's not fast or impressive but it's just a tool to make speed. It's the opposite of an Elise. An Elise is about a pure driving experience that's involving, and fun. The Veyron is about bragging rights. It was made to be the fastest production car ever built and it accomplishes that. The Veyron is an engineering marvel but won't be confused for a car that connects you with the road.
Quote from: omicron on June 05, 2007, 10:13:54 AM
It would be? Do explain. I'm intrigued.
omicron: OmiDude, Australia has huge engineering talent and every other Australian has a racing license--and knows how to use it, too!
Australia isn't burdened with the excessive regulation of every fart and tinkle that occurs within its borders--here, you have to fill out a three-part form just to cut one in a staff meeting. If that gas happened to come out of a tailpipe, then there's testing and validation required by the EPA, the NHTSA, the PTA, the CIA, the UAW, the ATF, the VFW, the NFL, and the Daughters of the Confederacy before production is legal.
And speaking of Daughters :ohyeah:, what's the ration of women to men in Australia? Decades ago, I heard that ratio was fantastic :tounge:--but everything seems to improve by the square of the distance away when a story gets told and re-told by horny young men. :lol:
Quote from: Nethead on June 06, 2007, 10:37:57 AM
omicron: OmiDude, Australia has huge engineering talent and every other Australian has a racing license--and knows how to use it, too!
Australia isn't burdened with the excessive regulation of every fart and tinkle that occurs within its borders--here, you have to fill out a three-part form just to cut one in a staff meeting. If that gas happened to come out of a tailpipe, then there's testing and validation required by the EPA, the NHTSA, the PTA, the CIA, the UAW, the ATF, the VFW, the NFL, and the Daughters of the Confederacy before production is legal.
And speaking of Daughters :ohyeah:, what's the ration of women to men in Australia? Decades ago, I heard that ratio was fantastic :tounge:--but everything seems to improve by the square of the distance away when a story gets told and re-told by horny young men. :lol:
1.01 females for every male.
Quote from: omicron on June 06, 2007, 11:07:17 AM
1.01 females for every male.
That's only 50.5% of the population. That sucks. In North America and Europe it's 52%.
Demographic statistics are fascinating!
*diverts course of thread*
Quote from: omicron on June 06, 2007, 11:07:17 AM
1.01 females for every male.
Alas, another urban wetdream bites the dust... :cry: