A RWD Pontiac G6 is coming in 2010. That will be really cool. I wonder if there will be a RWD G5 down the road.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-rear-wheel-drive-pontiac-g6-due-in-2010.html
That's awesome!
And if the G5 became RWD, then the Cobalt will be RWD too...
Cheap RWD cars coming!!!
Torana concept to go into production? Thank you, O Pontiac, for assuring sales volume.
Bad move. They need to have a sporty-looking FWD car without sporty substance to satisfy people who want a fast-looking but comfortable family sedan, the ones who have been buying the Grand Am and G6 in vast quantities. They need what the current G6 is, what the Dodge Avenger is, but better. They don't need everything in their line to be designed at the tiny enthusiast section of the market.
Quote from: ifcar on June 04, 2007, 10:33:15 AM
Bad move. They need to have a sporty-looking FWD car without sporty substance to satisfy people who want a fast-looking but comfortable family sedan, the ones who have been buying the Grand Am and G6 in vast quantities. They need what the current G6 is, what the Dodge Avenger is, but better. They don't need everything in their line to be designed at the tiny enthusiast section of the market.
It's about time Pontiac became the enthusiast brand GM always hailed it to be.
Quote from: ifcar on June 04, 2007, 10:33:15 AM
Bad move. They need to have a sporty-looking FWD car without sporty substance to satisfy people who want a fast-looking but comfortable family sedan, the ones who have been buying the Grand Am and G6 in vast quantities. They need what the current G6 is, what the Dodge Avenger is, but better. They don't need everything in their line to be designed at the tiny enthusiast section of the market.
The people who want a sport-looking FWD car can buy a Saab then.
RWD. :rockon: Plus this is a great way for Pontiac to become the enthusiast division of GM (which they really aren't right now).
Quote from: HEMI666 on June 04, 2007, 10:37:45 AM
It's about time Pontiac became the enthusiast brand GM always hailed it to be.
Agreed. It's the only way the marque will survive, IMHO.
I tend to agree with Ifcar.
Most people buying cars don't really know much about them. The G6 has been reasonably successful. It has decent sales volume and sells for singificantly more than the car it replaced (the Grand Am). Its not a great car but it is pretty nice IMHO.
GM needs to stick with a strategy and make their cars better with each generation. Instead it always seems like they are a bit scatterbrained. They will make a decent car and then cancel it just because it wasn't hailed as the next big thing.
I posted something similar on GMI about the Cobalt, but many car companies would love to have the volume that the G6 pulls in. GM would be better served by building on a mild success rather than trying to start from scratch in a whole new segment.
I think Ifcar has a good point. They've been selling fwd Grand Ams for ages. It's had a sporting look to it, but still provides a fairly comfortable family aspect to it. If it went more " hardcore " :rolleyes: this particular model will sell less. Plus it won't be sharing with the Malibu anymore , and cost a little more to produce it.
However, I do agree GM should make a sport division. Pontiac was supposed to be it before. I'd personally like to drive a rwd G6 ( or similar sized car ).
Quote from: Northlands on June 04, 2007, 11:21:40 AM
I think Ifcar has a good point. They've been selling fwd Grand Ams for ages. It's had a sporting look to it, but still provides a fairly comfortable family aspect to it. If it went more " hardcore "? :rolleyes:? this particular model will sell less. Plus? it won't be sharing with the Malibu anymore , and cost a little more to produce it.?
However, I do agree GM should make a sport division. Pontiac was supposed to be it before.? I'd personally like to drive a rwd G6 ( or similar sized car ).
The Malibu is supposed to be RWD too, so it will still share a platform. Ignore this. It's wrong.
Quote from: HEMI666 on June 04, 2007, 11:26:51 AM
The Malibu is supposed to be RWD too, so it will still share a platform.
I've never heard the Malibu is going to RWD. I am 99.999% sure it will stay FWD. The Malibu is the defintive FWD family car in Chevy's lineup.
I have heard (on the interwebs) that the Impala may go RWD, sharing a platform with the Pontiac G8/Chevy Camaro. This is a different platform than what is being discussed for the G6 though.
I just don't see the demand for RWD vehicles. The Chrysler 300C looks more distinctive, has better powertrains, and in general gets far better write-ups than the Impala...yet the boring Impala easily outsells the 300C.
I think SJ_GTI is right. The Malibu got larger with it's last redesign, so buyers of large FWD sedans wouldn't be alienated when the Impala switched over to RWD (on the Zeta platform, I believe).
I thought I'd heard that the Malibu was staying FWD since the Impala was going RWD.
I have to disagree with IFCAR. If people want a FWD family car, buy a Chevy or a Saturn. The G6 has never done well in any of IFCARs comparos as a family car anyway, might as well move it to be a total performance sedan package.
There will always be the Chevy SS for people that want FWD.
I am so glad that RWD cars are slowly coming back. :praise:
Sorry, I was thinking of the Impala.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 04, 2007, 11:43:46 AM
The G6 has never done well in any of IFCARs comparos as a family car anyway, might as well move it to be a total performance sedan package.
People don't buy the G6 because they are looking for the most practical family car. they need a practical family car, but want something sporty. The G6, while maybe not as functional as a Malibu or Camry as far as space, is pretty roomy (nice rear legroom, though headroom isn't great) and has a comfy ride while still looking like a sporty car.
Now I will say the Aura seems to fit into the same space that the G6 was in, but so far the G6 far outsells the Aura.
Quote from: ifcar on June 04, 2007, 10:33:15 AM
Bad move. They need to have a sporty-looking FWD car without sporty substance to satisfy people who want a fast-looking but comfortable family sedan, the ones who have been buying the Grand Am and G6 in vast quantities. They need what the current G6 is, what the Dodge Avenger is, but better. They don't need everything in their line to be designed at the tiny enthusiast section of the market.
I recently read a letter in a Motor Trend, I believe that said "Why would I spend extra money on a Charger when I could get an Avenger with similar looks for less?", paraphrased of course, though the language was no less simple. The average consumer, even ones that read car magazines, doesn't seem to be able to tell the advantages or disadvantages of either setup. I don't see how this could hurt at all. Sure, there would be performance, enthusiast minded variants, but the average car would be just soft and compliant as a standard E class or 5 series, two midsize, RWD sedans. If they keep interior space similar, then they shouldn't lose sales; only gain a reputation.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 04, 2007, 11:51:44 AM
People don't buy the G6 because they are looking for the most practical family car. they need a practical family car, but want something sporty. The G6, while maybe not as functional as a Malibu or Camry as far as space, is pretty roomy (nice rear legroom, though headroom isn't great) and has a comfy ride while still looking like a sporty car.
Now I will say the Aura seems to fit into the same space that the G6 was in, but so far the G6 far outsells the Aura.
There's nothing to keep a RWD G6 from having good rear legroom, and having a comfy ride (in base trim).? GM has sooooo many FWD sedans for sale, and I'd appreciate it if they had more RWD ones.? It isn't like the general public knows a difference in RWD or FWD.? If the volume sales that Pontiac might lose in the switch to RWD, it'd be great if they could bring Oldsmobile back and sell the RWD cars that enthusiasts want.? If you want a RWD sedan with a manual from GM your only choices now are
G6 G8 or CTS, and they both are pretty big cars.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 04, 2007, 12:02:44 PM
If you want a RWD sedan with a manual from GM your only choices now are G6 or CTS, and they both are pretty big cars.
And in the case of the CTS, it's a bit more than a lot of folks are willing to pay (myself included). I'm a used car buyer anyway, though.
just making the cars rwd won't make them sell, they have to be GOOD rwd cars.
RWD does make sense for sporty cars...look at the 240SX. It's a cult classic because of the RWD.
I don't see how this makes sense for a G6, however. The packaging benefits and perceived security of FWD are too much to ignore, IMO.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on June 04, 2007, 01:48:59 PM
RWD does make sense for sporty cars...look at the 240SX. It's a cult classic because of the RWD.
I don't see how this makes sense for a G6, however. The packaging benefits and perceived security of FWD are too much to ignore, IMO.
That doesn't stop people from buying the other RWD cars on the market.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on June 04, 2007, 01:48:59 PM
RWD does make sense for sporty cars...look at the 240SX. It's a cult classic because of the RWD.
I don't see how this makes sense for a G6, however. The packaging benefits and perceived security of FWD are too much to ignore, IMO.
The popularity of the 240SX showed up years after it had been discontinued due to the drifting craze. It was not very popular when it was actually in production, especially the last couple of years. IIRC, they didn't even sell 4000 a year in '97 and '98.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 04, 2007, 11:37:39 AM
I just don't see the demand for RWD vehicles. The Chrysler 300C looks more distinctive, has better powertrains, and in general gets far better write-ups than the Impala...yet the boring Impala easily outsells the 300C.
IIRC, nearly 50% of Impalas go to fleets.
I think its a good move...
I had a thought they needed to do this after seeing the G8 at the NYAS. There you had a real bonefied sport sedan (but on the large side). You turn around and saw some wannable G6 GXP. For me, it just tarnished the G8. Put this new G6 along side of the G8, and now you have the makings of a lineup that will appear to the audience POntiac is suppose to appeal to - enthusiasts.
I tihnk its a good idea. Pontiac needs to be a bargain BMW and leave FWD econo-cars to Chevy. They are afterall, the catch-all brand, from Trucks to subcompacts. As long as Pontiac styles it right I think it will sell well without incentives.
Quote from: MX793 on June 04, 2007, 04:22:45 PM
IIRC, nearly 50% of Impalas go to fleets.
I'm sure a substantial portion of 300s also goes to fleets.
Quote from: MX793 on June 04, 2007, 04:21:07 PM
The popularity of the 240SX showed up years after it had been discontinued due to the drifting craze. It was not very popular when it was actually in production, especially the last couple of years. IIRC, they didn't even sell 4000 a year in '97 and '98.
Regardless of that, I'd say there would be a market for it now if it was cheap and RWD. Although since the Z moved downmarket from the Z32, it's not necessary anyway.
Eh. :huh: Just kill off the Pontiac brand entirely. Give Chevy a handful of affordable RWD performance cars to sell alongside their FWD cars. With that plan, there would be no need for Pontiac.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 04, 2007, 10:38:41 AM
The people who want a sport-looking FWD car can buy a Saab then.
RWD. :rockon: Plus this is a great way for Pontiac to become the enthusiast division of GM (which they really aren't right now).
Grand Am shoppers as a whole probably aren't going to be able to afford a Saab.
Quote from: TheIntrepid on June 04, 2007, 09:55:49 PM
Grand Am shoppers as a whole probably aren't going to be able to afford a Saab.
Who buys Grand Ams? The last one was butt-ugly...especially the interior. :confused:
Quote from: USA_Idol on June 04, 2007, 09:57:18 PM
Who buys Grand Ams? The last one was butt-ugly...especially the interior. :confused:
On my 20 minute drive to work this morning, I must have driven by 30 Grand Ams. Looks be damned, people still buy them. Once they're used, they're pretty affordable.
I can't get past the interior of the Grand Am. What were Pontiac designers drinking when they thought that up? :partyon:
Quote from: TheIntrepid on June 04, 2007, 09:55:49 PM
Grand Am shoppers as a whole probably aren't going to be able to afford a Saab.
I don't care. I don't want to be stuck with a FWD car just because some douchebags who don't know anything about cars want FWD.
Quote from: USA_Idol on June 04, 2007, 09:52:57 PM
Eh. :huh: Just kill off the Pontiac brand entirely. Give Chevy a handful of affordable RWD performance cars to sell alongside their FWD cars. With that plan, there would be no need for Pontiac.
Dude, they'd have like 40 models that way. I'd love to see Pontiac become the poor man's BMW as has been suggested in this thread. Not necessarily a great
market move -- only time will tell on that count -- but I, personally, like the idea quite a bit.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 05, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
I don't care. I don't want to be stuck with a FWD car just because some douchebags who don't know anything about cars want FWD.
You're not buying it anyway. Taking the advice of people who aren't in the market for the product is not a smart business move.
Quote from: ifcar on June 05, 2007, 12:06:06 PM
You're not buying it anyway. Taking the advice of people who aren't in the market for the product is not a smart business move.
If i were in the market for a 4 door family sedan (something most of us will have to buy at one point or the other), this would probably be it.
But you're not right now, and your priorities are likely to change if you actually are.
Ok, if you say so. :huh:
Quote from: mazda6er on June 05, 2007, 11:58:54 AM
Dude, they'd have like 40 models that way. I'd love to see Pontiac become the poor man's BMW as has been suggested in this thread. Not necessarily a great market move -- only time will tell on that count -- but I, personally, like the idea quite a bit.
Chevy is GM's volume brand, anyway. A few more models won't hurt. :lol:
Quote from: mazda6er on June 05, 2007, 11:58:54 AM
Dude, they'd have like 40 models that way. I'd love to see Pontiac become the poor man's BMW as has been suggested in this thread. Not necessarily a great market move -- only time will tell on that count -- but I, personally, like the idea quite a bit.
I agree. They already have the grille designs down to start copying BMW, so why not :praise:
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 05, 2007, 02:54:38 PM
I agree. They already have the grille designs down to start copying BMW, so why not :praise:
I believe it was BMW that copied the Pontiac Montana when designing the new grilles, Vinsan.
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=9471.msg470492#msg470492 date=1181077431
I believe it was BMW that copied the Pontiac Montana when designing the new grilles, Vinsan.
of course! how ludicrous of me not to acknowledge the striking and inspirational design of the Pontiac Montana :mask:
All of Subaru's designs are basically built of different variations of the same platform and they can sell affordable cars with AWD. I can't see why Pontiac couldn't do the same save for one thing: CAFE.
Quote from: mazda6er on June 05, 2007, 11:58:54 AM
Dude, they'd have like 40 models that way. I'd love to see Pontiac become the poor man's BMW as has been suggested in this thread. Not necessarily a great market move -- only time will tell on that count -- but I, personally, like the idea quite a bit.
I honestly think it is a great move. BMW is one of the great brands, and is idolized by all of the other automakers. If you can get 7/8ths of a BMW at 1/2 the price I think it would be a huge hits. That is what the G8 looks to be.
Quote from: goldenlover1101 on June 05, 2007, 08:30:43 PM
I honestly think it is a great move. BMW is one of the great brands, and is idolized by all of the other automakers. If you can get 7/8ths of a BMW at 1/2 the price I think it would be a huge hits. That is what the G8 looks to be.
Yeah but the majority of the public doesn't want a BMW because of their performance they want one because it's a BMW.
Quote from: JYODER240 on June 05, 2007, 09:09:40 PM
Yeah but the majority of the public doesn't want a BMW because of their performance they want one because it's a BMW.
True, but those who can't afford one will want the next best thing
Quote from: goldenlover1101 on June 05, 2007, 09:11:03 PM
True, but those who can't afford one will want the next best thing
The Pontiac badge isn't the next best thing.
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car? Think...
Quote from: the Teuton on June 05, 2007, 09:21:40 PM
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car?? Think...
Exactly.
Quote from: the Teuton on June 05, 2007, 09:21:40 PM
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car?? Think...
I see them all the time. A big portion of the Bimmers I see are stick (I have a weird habit of looking in the windows of parked cars), more so than other cars in the class.
Quote from: 565 on June 05, 2007, 09:35:09 PM
I see them all the time. A big portion of the Bimmers I see are stick (I have a weird habit of looking in the windows of parked cars), more so than other cars in the class.
why look at most bimmers when you have a Z06 to look at :huh:
Quote from: 565 on June 05, 2007, 09:35:09 PM
I see them all the time. A big portion of the Bimmers I see are stick (I have a weird habit of looking in the windows of parked cars), more so than other cars in the class.
I did that, too, in Pittsburgh, and I saw more stick VWs than BMWs.
Quote from: M_power on June 05, 2007, 09:39:14 PM
why look at most bimmers when you have a Z06 to look at? :huh:
Haha I look inside alot of cars to see what kind of transmission they have or whether they have navi or not. It's a weird habit that makes me look like a potential car thief.
Quote from: 565 on June 05, 2007, 09:35:09 PM
I see them all the time. A big portion of the Bimmers I see are stick (I have a weird habit of looking in the windows of parked cars), more so than other cars in the class.
I do the same thing. Then I break in and steal shit.
Just kidding. But not really.
Quote from: JYODER240 on June 05, 2007, 09:09:40 PM
Yeah but the majority of the public doesn't want a BMW because of their performance they want one because it's a BMW.
Bingo!
Quote from: the Teuton on June 05, 2007, 09:21:40 PM
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car?? Think...
Like 4 times today.
:lol:
Actuallly, I see a fair amount.
Quote from: JYODER240 on June 05, 2007, 09:09:40 PM
Yeah but the majority of the public doesn't want a BMW because of their performance they want one because it's a BMW.
The vast majority of people that I have dealt with buy a BMW because of the performance image the brand has not just its luxory image. So, while it may not actually be the cars true performance that wins them over, it most definately is the idea that their car is "sporty".
BTW, for those talking about sticks in BMW, ~15% of new BMWs are sold with manuals, one of the higher %s in the industry IIRC.
Quote from: 565 on June 05, 2007, 10:05:42 PM
Haha I look inside alot of cars to see what kind of transmission they have or whether they have navi or not. It's a weird habit that makes me look like a potential car thief.
I do that to all the car i ride by on my bike too.
Quote from: the Teuton on June 05, 2007, 09:21:40 PM
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car?? Think...
The guy in the office right next to me drives a 330xi with a 6-speed manual. :huh:
There's a 5-series in the parking lot that is also a 6-speed (maybe a 5-speed actually, its an E39 not E60). I also see a manual 325ci, 9-5, TL, and B5 A4 in my parking lot, all with manuals. When I lived in Montreal, I would say a significant portion of BMW's were manual transmission, especially 3-series.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 06, 2007, 07:19:14 AM
The guy in the office right next to me drives a 330xi with a 6-speed manual. :huh:
There's a 5-series in the parking lot that is also a 6-speed (maybe a 5-speed actually, its an E39 not E60). I also see a manual 325ci, 9-5, TL, and B5 A4 in my parking lot, all with manuals. When I lived in Montreal, I would say a significant portion of BMW's were manual transmission, especially 3-series.
Rare here. I see mostly 325i autos.
Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=9471.msg471237#msg471237 date=1181137822
Rare here.? I see mostly 325i autos.?
I see plenty of 3-series and 5-series with automatics as well, they are clearly the majority. I was responding to the implication that seeing a BMW with a manual was a rare event.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 06, 2007, 08:00:38 AM
I see plenty of 3-series and 5-series with automatics as well, they are clearly the majority. I was responding to the implication that seeing a BMW with a manual was a rare event.
Where I live, it is. I can't remember the last time I saw one. Not even an M.
Pretty much all the BMW's here are autos, the only BMW's in my school parking lot that are manuals are a 318ti and two E30 coupes. :(
Lots of BMWs here are manuals... :huh:
If anything, I think the rarest brand to see a manual in (besides brands that offer only automatics, like Buick) is Toyota. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Toyota with a manual, other than my one uncle's Echo.
At my last job, of the 4 BMW's in the lot - all were Auto's.
From my Valet past, I would say it was probably 75%-25% Autos OVER Manuals in BMW. Also surprising we get more Auto Vettes than we did Manuals.
Of course 100% of the Saabs at my work are auto. (I'm the only one!)
Quote from: 93JC on June 06, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
Lots of BMWs here are manuals... :huh:
If anything, I think the rarest brand to see a manual in (besides brands that offer only automatics, like Buick) is Toyota. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Toyota with a manual, other than my one uncle's Echo.
I saw a 5speed Camry V6 once. :mask:
There are three Bimmers in our company's parking lot and all three are manuals. I hate it that so many manufacturers won't even offer a manual in their cars. I understand the reasoning though since only 10% of all vehicles sold have a manual.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 06, 2007, 12:49:23 PM
I saw a 5speed Camry V6 once. :mask:
They do exist. The first car I ever drove (well, attempted to drive) with a manual transmission with my mothers Camry.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 06, 2007, 01:14:47 PM
They do exist. The first car I ever drove (well, attempted to drive) with a manual transmission with my mothers Camry.
Toyota Paseo for me.
Quote from: the Teuton on June 05, 2007, 09:21:40 PM
When was the last time you saw a BMW with a stick that wasn't an ///M car or a sports car? Think...
Farris'.
Quite a few, actually.
Quote from: Champ on June 06, 2007, 12:48:29 PM
At my last job, of the 4 BMW's in the lot - all were Auto's.
From my Valet past, I would say it was probably 75%-25% Autos OVER Manuals in BMW. Also surprising we get more Auto Vettes than we did Manuals.
Of course 100% of the Saabs at my work are auto. (I'm the only one!)
The automatic is the "standard" transmission for the Corvette. The 6 speed manual was actually an extra cost option (about $800) on the C5 generation. I think they made it a no cost option for the C6.
Quote from: MX793 on June 06, 2007, 04:20:39 PM
The automatic is the "standard" transmission for the Corvette. The 6 speed manual was actually an extra cost option (about $800) on the C5 generation. I think they made it a no cost option for the C6.
there ya go!
In the GTO, the manual was indeed also an option, but it eradicated a gas guzzler tax, so it was cheaper than the standard automatic.
Quote from: Raghavan on June 06, 2007, 08:43:17 AM
Pretty much all the BMW's here are autos, the only BMW's in my school parking lot that are manuals are a 318ti and two E30 coupes. :(
My 7 series is an auto, as are all post-'88 7 series. A manual in one would be out of place.
Quote from: ChrisV on June 07, 2007, 11:49:10 AM
My 7 series is an auto, as are all post-'88 7 series. A manual in one would be out of place.
7-series BMW's are rare in and of themselves though. They are a small proportion of overall BMW sales.
Quote from: ChrisV on June 07, 2007, 11:49:10 AM
My 7 series is an auto, as are all post-'88 7 series. A manual in one would be out of place.
Man, watch
The Transporter! 735i with a manual. It looked awesome.
Quote from: Raza on June 07, 2007, 11:57:49 AM
Man, watch The Transporter! 735i with a manual. It looked awesome.
But that's the small engine. It NEEDS a manual just to keep up with traffic. ;) We didn't get the 735 here in the US in that generation (the E38, from '95-2001) and the '88-93 E32 735 didn't have a manual here.
Quote from: ChrisV on June 08, 2007, 07:01:13 AM
But that's the small engine. It NEEDS a manual just to keep up with traffic. ;) We didn't get the 735 here in the US in that generation (the E38, from '95-2001) and the '88-93 E32 735 didn't have a manual here.
But in Europe, engines up to the 740i were available with a stick. I don't think the 750i/li was, though.
Great car though. If I wanted a large executive sedan, it would definitely be on the list.
I think the 735i would actually be a pretty decent performer. It's the 728i which I think would be a bit underpowered.