Author Topic: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!  (Read 4353 times)

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Offline GoCougs

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #270 on: March 13, 2019, 08:11:57 am »
Engines have an engineered factor of safety of at least 200% or more... Meaning they are designed to mechanically handle at least twice the rated power as stock.  As long as you get there with proper fueling, spark, and boost control its not creating any more stress or wear.

Boost yer motor to ~550 hp and let us know how it goes...

But no, that's not how It works. Every single vehicle sold is designed to an extreme cost structure, and no automaker is investing $$$ for such overhead in a motor.

Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #271 on: March 13, 2019, 08:16:38 am »
r0tor is fully emotionally invested. He can and will be happy to buy a new engine.
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Offline giant_mtb

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #272 on: March 13, 2019, 08:54:20 am »
Engines have an engineered factor of safety of at least 200% or more... Meaning they are designed to mechanically handle at least twice the rated power as stock.  As long as you get there with proper fueling, spark, and boost control its not creating any more stress or wear.

You have two bridges, identical, both rated for 10 tons.  One bridge is only for bicycles.  1,000 bicycles cross it a year.  The other bridge takes normal automotive traffic.  1,000 cars weighing ~2 tons cross it a year.

Which bridge is gonna experience more stress and wear?

Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #273 on: March 13, 2019, 09:04:14 am »
Stress is not wear.

Yes, higher power creates more stress. The question is whether or not it increases strain (metal stretching) or vibration induced wear to an extent that it becomes problematic; and the answer is "definitely maybe."

You don't have to snap off a bottom bearing to increase wear on the engine; but if things start flexing even slightly above what is expected, you start doing bad things to bearing surfaces, and in some cases start causing metal fatigue.

I don't think he's doing anything unreasonable right now; but its his car, he can make that decision.
We should get into the sympathy business.  There is a killing to be made.

Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #274 on: March 13, 2019, 10:16:50 am »
Boost yer motor to ~550 hp and let us know how it goes...

But no, that's not how It works. Every single vehicle sold is designed to an extreme cost structure, and no automaker is investing $$$ for such overhead in a motor.

Its safely fuel limited to around 400hp and the transmission is also rated for about the same.  There are tunes sold that bring it up to that amount and people are driving with those tunes without issue.  To go above that requires more mods

To your other fallacy, the same identical engine is sold in a lower price model with 200hp (only limited by the tune).
It is rumored to be released as a limited edition with 350hp (with only a different tune).
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #275 on: March 13, 2019, 10:18:03 am »
You have two bridges, identical, both rated for 10 tons.  One bridge is only for bicycles.  1,000 bicycles cross it a year.  The other bridge takes normal automotive traffic.  1,000 cars weighing ~2 tons cross it a year.

Which bridge is gonna experience more stress and wear?

Unless your hitting a fatigue stress limit - the bridge doesn't give two shits
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #276 on: March 13, 2019, 10:18:39 am »
r0tor is fully emotionally invested. He can and will be happy to buy a new engine.

Your right... I should have put dubs on it and crappy coilovers instead
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #277 on: March 13, 2019, 10:37:54 am »
Its safely fuel limited to around 400hp and the transmission is also rated for about the same.  There are tunes sold that bring it up to that amount and people are driving with those tunes without issue.  To go above that requires more mods

To your other fallacy, the same identical engine is sold in a lower price model with 200hp (only limited by the tune).
It is rumored to be released as a limited edition with 350hp (with only a different tune).
Rated by who?

And unless you have part numbers for that 350hp version your theory is bunk. Manufacturers beef up internals within engine families all the time.
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #278 on: March 13, 2019, 10:43:16 am »
So why is a 280hp engine sold as a 200hp one?  The answer is the car and power train was designed around its highest spec and limited for the lower specs to save development costs.  90% of the chassis components on my car are shared by the Quadrofogogogolollippoplgios. This is a relatively low production car where development and tooling costs are huge.
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Offline CaminoRacer

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #279 on: March 13, 2019, 10:54:02 am »
Why are they selling beefy components if they don't need to? Developing less-beefy components is simple. (certainly more simple than trying to make it beefier)
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #280 on: March 13, 2019, 11:06:42 am »
Crash testing, emissions testing, certifications, tooling, development costs...
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Offline giant_mtb

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #281 on: March 13, 2019, 11:21:03 am »
Unless your hitting a fatigue stress limit - the bridge doesn't give two shits

You're missing the point. But that's okay.

Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #282 on: March 13, 2019, 11:31:22 am »
For fucks sake... OEMs will even offer upgrades under warranty

But no, clearly the OEMs take their power outputs to the absolute limits   :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

https://www.shopbmwusa.com/PRODUCT/5618/BMW-M-PERFORMANCE-POWER-AND-SOUND-KIT

https://performanceparts.ford.com/performance-packs/
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Offline BimmerM3

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #283 on: March 13, 2019, 11:33:30 am »
Or it just depends on the specific vehicle/manufacturer and discussing this in generalities is completely pointless.

Some engines are well-known for being overbuilt. Others are well-known for not being overbuilt. :huh:
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #284 on: March 13, 2019, 12:46:05 pm »
Its safely fuel limited to around 400hp and the transmission is also rated for about the same.  There are tunes sold that bring it up to that amount and people are driving with those tunes without issue.  To go above that requires more mods

To your other fallacy, the same identical engine is sold in a lower price model with 200hp (only limited by the tune).
It is rumored to be released as a limited edition with 350hp (with only a different tune).

But you claimed 100-200% margin - that's 560+ hp, which is wholly unrelated to this assemblage of words, phrases and symbols.

Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #285 on: March 13, 2019, 12:50:18 pm »
Its quite possible it won't suffer immediate catastrophic structural failure until 500 hp plus; that's a long ways from being happy and reliable and staying out of the danger zone of the stress/strain curve.

We should get into the sympathy business.  There is a killing to be made.

Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #286 on: March 13, 2019, 01:07:04 pm »
But you claimed 100-200% margin - that's 560+ hp, which is wholly unrelated to this assemblage of words, phrases and symbols.

Your intentionally mixing up component design factor of safety with system design conditions.  The core engine and components are designed for 200% of load and actually need to be to keep out of fatigue issues... but turbos and injectors and cam profiles ect need to be selected for the actual range of power.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:09:32 pm by r0tor »
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #287 on: March 13, 2019, 01:35:30 pm »
But you claimed 100-200% margin - that's 560+ hp, which is wholly unrelated to this assemblage of words, phrases and symbols.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again until a higher HP version of this engine comes out with all the same part numbers for the internals.......... :huh:

And even if it's the same many of the peripherals will have to be the same too. For example the Infiniti V6-TT lets its turbo spin faster in the RS version thanks to a turbo speed sensor. The base V6-TT can prob do the same exact power but it's riskier

This all could have been avoided if you had just bought the 340i :zzz:
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Offline 2o6

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #288 on: March 13, 2019, 05:08:25 pm »
This sounds like the rhetoric that the "Trifecta" tune guys at the Chevy Sonic/Trax/Cruze forums say. It's all fun and games until a turbine loses a fin.

Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #289 on: March 13, 2019, 05:55:17 pm »
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again until a higher HP version of this engine comes out with all the same part numbers for the internals.......... :huh:

And even if it's the same many of the peripherals will have to be the same too. For example the Infiniti V6-TT lets its turbo spin faster in the RS version thanks to a turbo speed sensor. The base V6-TT can prob do the same exact power but it's riskier

This all could have been avoided if you had just bought the 340i :zzz:

The engine at this power level has about a much of a chance of exploding as your chassis has of cracking in half from your shitty suspension
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Offline AutobahnSHO

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #290 on: March 13, 2019, 08:19:48 pm »
Heh.

There are reasons it didn't come with that power from the factory, but that's your decision.
Will
 
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Offline giant_mtb

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #291 on: March 13, 2019, 09:29:39 pm »
I mean, he's not wrong that ~10% over normal isn't going to ruin anything. You'll be just fine. If you were reaching for levels of 25% or more, I'd err on the side of caution for a brand new/under warranty vehicle.

Play it safe and enjoy.

Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #292 on: March 14, 2019, 07:14:31 am »
The engine at this power level has about a much of a chance of exploding as your chassis has of cracking in half from your shitty suspension
Someone's in their feelings :pullover:
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Offline dazzleman

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #293 on: March 17, 2019, 06:23:21 am »
I should add some more review stuff I guess...

- the thing is extremely good in the snow.  Between the rear biased awd, the rear lsd, and the stability control it turns and accelerates fantastically in the snow and you can easily get it into small controlled drifts.  If it had more ground clearance I would easily choose it over our Jeep for bad storms (that never really likes to turn in the snow under power)... Stelvio is probably a winter Rockstar

- still stuck on 0.9gs for peak lateral... Damn cold/ice/potholes are probably going to make that record hold for awhile

- cracked off a 4.46 0-60mph run this week (aided by nice 40deg air)

- still averaging about 29mpg.  Should only get better this spring/summer/fall.

So so far it has been reliable, fuel efficient, comfortable, big enough for the family, extremely frikkin fun, and great all weather grocery getter... Pretty much why I always wanted a sports sedan  :praise:

 :ohyeah:  Sweet.  I hope it continues to treat you well and give you some good driving fun, man.
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #294 on: April 08, 2019, 02:47:51 pm »
Weather warmed up, RX8 is out of hibernation... Have some general musings...

-  The pirelli's all seasons are noticeably suckier in warmer temps.  I noticed that on tire rack they scored very high for snow ratings and now they sort of feel like soft squishy winter tires in warmer temps.  Wish for the PSS's on the RX8...

-  a little bit of tire squirm and chassis movement really does showcase the Giulia is essentially RWD with a rear lsd.  That unique feeling of rotation in the rear axel is definitely shared between the Giulia and RX8.

-  The steering is noticeably heavier and slower in the RX8.  I also noticed a lot more tramlining in the RX8.  Feel wise the RX8 is still better, but the margin is very small.

-  Everything feels just a touch more analog in the RX8... because it is

-  I would take the Giulia active suspension over the Bilstein coilovers.  The roads are terrible right now and several times I found myself bracing for impact in the RX8 on the ride home.  But then on the flip side, the Giulia is also even more locked down than the RX8 (although the Bilstein are set pretty soft at the moment) in the twisties.

-  Holy fuck the RX8 is loud.

-  Engine wise it's a linear screamer that sounds sexy as hell vs a boosted tractor engine... Cruising I prefer the Giulia as it's effortless power and coming on boost is a fun feeling.  For fun though you can't ignore the sounds of the RX8... so intoxicating.

-  Transmission wise I haven't really made up my mind.   The paddles work so well on the Giulia.  You can relax when you want and take control when you want. I find the short ratios however annoying and require too much attention when having fun. I also like the feel of engine braking with the 6 speed RX8 much better....maybe this is an untalked about advantage of a DCT over a slushie automatic.

I want to start driving the RX8 more to keep mileage down on the Giulia... But damn I feel like a masochist doing it - braking my back, going deaf, and getting 50% worse fuel mileage.
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Offline CaminoRacer

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #295 on: April 24, 2019, 08:38:51 am »


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Offline FoMoJo

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #296 on: April 24, 2019, 08:53:21 am »
Infotainment and blue tooth are anathema to an Alfa.  One cannot blame it for disabling those systems.  As a former Alfa driver, no sound is more pleasing than the burble of the exhaust note in the still morning air and any distraction from that as well as the extreme sensation of whisking along a quiet, twisting country road should be discontinued.  Nothing handles like an Alfa; nor sounds as sweet.
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Offline r0tor

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #297 on: April 24, 2019, 10:13:29 am »
There is an issue isolated to the USA where the XM radio updates fuck with the infotainment... There is a flash update available

If infotainment gremlins are the worst of Alfa's issues on their return - I'd say they have done a great job with the Giulia/Stelvio
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Offline Laconian

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #298 on: April 24, 2019, 11:14:00 am »
Infotainment and blue tooth are anathema to an Alfa.  One cannot blame it for disabling those systems.  As a former Alfa driver, no sound is more pleasing than the burble of the exhaust note in the still morning air and any distraction from that as well as the extreme sensation of whisking along a quiet, twisting country road should be discontinued.  Nothing handles like an Alfa; nor sounds as sweet.

Did it have a V6? I've only heard Alfa V6es in videos, and :wub:
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Offline FoMoJo

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Re: ALPHA.... I mean Alfa!!!!!
« Reply #299 on: April 24, 2019, 11:35:05 am »
Did it have a V6? I've only heard Alfa V6es in videos, and :wub:
It was their 1750 I4, but very advanced for the time...

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