Author Topic: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.  (Read 1435 times)

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Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 04:12:31 pm »
Well, if you must. As you know, I'm always here to help when asked.

See the C&D test above. Using the 395 hp Ram as a proxy, which in that test weighed ~500 lbs more and was towing ~1,200 lbs more vs. the F-150, was only 0.8 seconds slower in the 30-50 mph towing test. Also keep in mind that the C&D test was of a $70k F150 with the 450 hp Ecoboost, not the 375 hp F150 used in the video. Sure, the C&D test wasn't at extreme elevation, but the "12-seconds-slower" premise is literally impossible.

The trucks accomplished the same task in the same time and Ecoboost, true to form, got worse mpg.

Two different tests, two different sets of conditions (temperature, altitude, etc)...  I'm dealing specifically with the TFL hill climb video, as that was a same day, same conditions, 1-for-1 test.  Once 60 mph was reached, both the Coyote and EcoBoost trucks were able to maintain 60 mph.  Since they weren't allowed to violate the speed limit, any difference in times is in the initial 35-60 mph acceleration at the bottom of the hill.  There was an 8 second difference in times, ergo, the 5.0 was 8 seconds slower on that initial acceleration from 35 to 60 mph at the bottom of the hill.  That is significant.  The 5.0 tested was a 2WD model that was also 700 lbs lighter than the 3.5TT used in the same test (the trailer being pulled was the same weight for both trucks).  So not only was the V6TT much quicker in the TFL test, it did so with a sizable weight handicap.  Of course, the combination of more weight and much harder acceleration will consume more fuel.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 04:14:18 pm by MX793 »
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 04:14:58 pm »
1 mpg difference between them.  And the Dodge is both mild hybrid and has cylinder deactivation.  The Ford was far and away the strongest.  In the laden acceleration test, it blew the doors off of the others.

Percentages. It's all about percentages. Oh, and again, the premise. Plus don't forget that hybridization and cylinder deactivation doesn't really work. Plus, in finality, note that the Ram in that test weighs ~500 lbs more and was towing ~1,200 lbs more vs. the F150.

1 mpg in with these vehicles is 6-9%. It's not going to be a deal breaker for buyers but the faint damnation is actually quite extreme. Turbos and intercoolers and OHCs and all the rest of it, and Ecoboost almost always trails the competition's positively ancient pooprod mills when it comes to mpg.

Ecoboost, in total, underperforms, and has caused Ford more problems than it solved. Ergo, my moderate hunch that the pooprod Godzilla family could eventually be a replacement across the board, rather than in just the Raptor.

Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2019, 04:45:54 pm »
Two different tests, two different sets of conditions (temperature, altitude, etc)...  I'm dealing specifically with the TFL hill climb video, as that was a same day, same conditions, 1-for-1 test.  Once 60 mph was reached, both the Coyote and EcoBoost trucks were able to maintain 60 mph.  Since they weren't allowed to violate the speed limit, any difference in times is in the initial 35-60 mph acceleration at the bottom of the hill.  There was an 8 second difference in times, ergo, the 5.0 was 8 seconds slower on that initial acceleration from 35 to 60 mph at the bottom of the hill.  That is significant.  The 5.0 tested was a 2WD model that was also 700 lbs lighter than the 3.5TT used in the same test (the trailer being pulled was the same weight for both trucks).  So not only was the V6TT much quicker in the TFL test, it did so with a sizable weight handicap.  Of course, the combination of more weight and much harder acceleration will consume more fuel.

12 seconds literally cannot exist.

The 5.0L in the video does not weigh 700 lbs less. According to Ford, curb weight difference is ~320 lbs for 2WD 5.0L XLT vs. 4WD Ecoboost Lariat. Towing 8,900 lbs with ~5,000 lb trucks means +/- 320 lbs literally also does not exist. But again, even if it, did, it's damnation by comparison - all this Ecoboost complexity and drama, only to equal the N/A V8? Ouch.

Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2019, 04:49:16 pm »
12 seconds literally cannot exist.

The 5.0L in the video does not weigh 700 lbs less. According to Ford, curb weight difference is ~320 lbs for 2WD 5.0L XLT vs. 4WD Ecoboost Lariat. Towing 8,900 lbs with ~5,000 lb trucks means +/- 320 lbs literally also does not exist. But again, even if it, did, it's damnation by comparison - all this Ecoboost complexity and drama, only to equal the N/A V8? Ouch.

What 12 seconds are you talking about?  There was an 8 second difference between the V6 and V8 trucks in the TFL test.

The guys in TFL said that between the 4WD and other options, the trucks they tested had a 700 lbs difference is actual as-tested weight.

EDIT:

Here, let me post the video right at the pertinent timestamps since you apparently didn't really watch or pay attention.

Time for the Ecoboost (7:58.88):
https://youtu.be/k8CafR1YxqE?t=392

Time for the Coyote (8:06.99):
https://youtu.be/k8CafR1YxqE?t=681

Specifically, they started accelerating hard from 35 mph at ~4:21 in the video and stopped by ~4:34 in the Ecoboost.  And that was with some wheelspin on snow/ice.  They started accelerating ~9:07 in the video and hit 60 at ~9:29 (roughly 21-22 seconds) in the Coyote.

Discussion on the weight difference:
https://youtu.be/k8CafR1YxqE?t=230
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 05:07:22 pm by MX793 »
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2019, 05:01:58 pm »
What 12 seconds are you talking about?  There was an 8 second difference between the V6 and V8 trucks in the TFL test.

The guys in TFL said that between the 4WD and other options, the trucks they tested had a 700 lbs difference is actual as-tested weight.

Perhaps the Ecoboost truck had the optional stereo.

Offline Eye of the Tiger

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2019, 05:57:30 pm »
12 seconds literally cannot exist.

The 5.0L in the video does not weigh 700 lbs less. According to Ford, curb weight difference is ~320 lbs for 2WD 5.0L XLT vs. 4WD Ecoboost Lariat. Towing 8,900 lbs with ~5,000 lb trucks means +/- 320 lbs literally also does not exist. But again, even if it, did, it's damnation by comparison - all this Ecoboost complexity and drama, only to equal the N/A V8? Ouch.

You are right, of course. 12 seconds can not exist, nor can any other quantity of any unit of time. Time has either already happened, or is going to happen; it either previously existed, or is going to exist. The present existence of any amount of time is literally impossible. The present moment is not even a real thing. The instantaneous moment is immeasureable, and therefore unable to be proven or even defined. The present can only exist as an idea of a consecutive quantity time that has passed and will occur, but can never actually exist.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 06:00:11 pm by Eye of the Tiger »
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Offline BimmerM3

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2019, 12:07:50 pm »
You are right, of course. 12 seconds can not exist, nor can any other quantity of any unit of time. Time has either already happened, or is going to happen; it either previously existed, or is going to exist. The present existence of any amount of time is literally impossible. The present moment is not even a real thing. The instantaneous moment is immeasureable, and therefore unable to be proven or even defined. The present can only exist as an idea of a consecutive quantity time that has passed and will occur, but can never actually exist.

:lol:

This is surprisingly similar to my reaction when I read that statement.
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Offline SJ_GTI

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2019, 12:31:13 pm »
You are right, of course. 12 seconds can not exist, nor can any other quantity of any unit of time. Time has either already happened, or is going to happen; it either previously existed, or is going to exist. The present existence of any amount of time is literally impossible. The present moment is not even a real thing. The instantaneous moment is immeasureable, and therefore unable to be proven or even defined. The present can only exist as an idea of a consecutive quantity time that has passed and will occur, but can never actually exist.

thosearethefacts.gif

Offline FoMoJo

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2019, 12:32:19 pm »
You are right, of course. 12 seconds can not exist, nor can any other quantity of any unit of time. Time has either already happened, or is going to happen; it either previously existed, or is going to exist. The present existence of any amount of time is literally impossible. The present moment is not even a real thing. The instantaneous moment is immeasureable, and therefore unable to be proven or even defined. The present can only exist as an idea of a consecutive quantity time that has passed and will occur, but can never actually exist.
Perhaps you just need the right bottle. :huh:
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Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2019, 12:41:44 pm »
Some have theorized that just as there is a a quantum level of matter- a point at which matter cannot physically get smaller and remain matter, there is also a quanta of time: the basic unit of time- the "tick" of the universe if you will. Hypothetically, this might be something on the order of 10 to -80 power of one second.

If this is true, and if multiverse theory is true, and if at any one moment there is a minimum of 12 x 10 to the 80th power universes, then there is in fact 12 seconds in existence at any one moment.
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Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2019, 12:43:40 pm »
I also get the feeling that none of y'all have ever towed something up a mountain before.
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Offline FoMoJo

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2019, 12:59:52 pm »
Some have theorized that just as there is a a quantum level of matter- a point at which matter cannot physically get smaller and remain matter, there is also a quanta of time: the basic unit of time- the "tick" of the universe if you will. Hypothetically, this might be something on the order of 10 to -80 power of one second.

If this is true, and if multiverse theory is true, and if at any one moment there is a minimum of 12 x 10 to the 80th power universes, then there is in fact 12 seconds in existence at any one moment.
That seems very complicated.  If an occurrence can be a measure of time and given the relationship of time to the speed of light, the universe is full of 12 second events which continue to travel towards us.  Of course, once we view them, they continue on towards whatever the infinite bounds of the universe are.                   
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2019, 01:04:48 pm »
Actually, if I may be so bold, I think you guys are overthinking it. Twelve seconds does not exist, and it's not ethereal - it's concrete - whether under the guise of GR&R, control loop theory, logic or data.

Offline RomanChariot

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2019, 01:06:16 pm »
I also get the feeling that none of y'all have ever towed something up a mountain before.

I have, but only the small mountains they call the Rockies.
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2019, 01:10:13 pm »
So Ecoboost is a dead cat bounce, but at least we are in all agreement that diesel F-150 is even a worse idea - at $4k upcharge or otherwise. Jesus:




Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2019, 01:38:57 pm »
I have, but only the small mountains they call the Rockies.

Well, you've not said anything dumb on that matter yet either. 
We should get into the sympathy business.  There is a killing to be made.

Offline CaminoRacer

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2019, 01:51:12 pm »
One time I towed 65,000 lbs with my Ferd Ranger diesel up Pikes Peak. Only took 12 seconds.
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Offline shp4man

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2019, 01:53:51 pm »
One time I towed 65,000 lbs with my Ferd Ranger diesel up Pikes Peak. Only took 12 seconds.

Would have been faster with a Guerilla Pooprod.  :lol:

Offline RomanChariot

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2019, 02:09:21 pm »
Well, you've not said anything dumb on that matter yet either. 


Give me time.
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Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2019, 02:12:11 pm »
Actually, if I may be so bold, I think you guys are overthinking it. Twelve seconds does not exist, and it's not ethereal - it's concrete - whether under the guise of GR&R, control loop theory, logic or data.

I fail to see what GRR Martin has to do with any of this.
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2019, 02:58:59 pm »
I fail to see what GRR Martin has to do with any of this.

Exactly my point.

Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2019, 06:04:19 pm »
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the "12 second difference" that he keeps on about.  Where did the number come from?  What, from any of the posted videos or articles, shows a 12 second difference and what was it a difference between?
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Offline FoMoJo

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2019, 06:13:18 pm »
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the "12 second difference" that he keeps on about.  Where did the number come from?  What, from any of the posted videos or articles, shows a 12 second difference and what was it a difference between?
Between his ears? :huh:
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Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2019, 06:23:18 pm »
Here's a video with a direct, same day comparison of the 2019 GMC Sierra 6.2, F150 3.5EB, and Ram 5.7.



The Ford got the worst mileage, but was far and away the quickest up the hill.  Over 6 seconds quicker than the GMC and more than 10 seconds better than the Ram.

The Ram reported the best fuel mileage by a pretty large margin (4.7 vs 3.8 vs 3.3).  That said, and this was true of the other test comparing Ford vs Ford, they use the truck's digital MPG readout for their fuel economy value.  IME, those can be pretty inaccurate.  Though I'm not sure how one would accurately determine fuel mileage on such a short jaunt with the basic equipment TFL has (they'd have to meter how much fuel was in the tank at the bottom of the hill, then drain the tank at the top, which they weren't set up to do).
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Offline Eye of the Tiger

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2019, 06:32:13 pm »
Best towing truck is K1500 4.3 with Electronic Fuel Injection.
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2019, 06:40:43 pm »
Oh, man! If you must. But first, here we are, the Ram wins another overall test.

As much as we love 12SECONDSSpin, the trucks had the same time. Please watch the video again, and other such videos by the channel - whether it's traffic or admission that any of these trucks have reserve power and can easily hold 60 mph.

On-board MPG is extremely accurate for it uses the PWM control of the fuel injectors. Whatever the method, Ecoboost almost always finished last in MPG, onboard calculation or less accurate methods. 

Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2019, 06:44:38 pm »
Oh, man! If you must. But first, here we are, the Ram wins another overall test.

As much as we love 12SECONDSSpin, the trucks had the same time. Please watch the video again, and other such videos by the channel - whether it's traffic or admission that any of these trucks have reserve power and can easily hold 60 mph.

No, they did not get the same times.  They accelerate from a lower speed to 60, then hold 60 the whole way up the hill (assuming the truck has the power to do so, which all of these do).  If one has a lower time, it's because it accomplished that initial acceleration faster.

Quote
On-board MPG is extremely accurate for it uses the PWM control of the fuel injectors. Whatever the method, Ecoboost almost always finished last in MPG, onboard calculation or less accurate methods. 

Then why does every vehicle I've ever owned with such a readout read at least 5% off compared to what I get when I fill the tank and then do the math on fuel in vs miles driven?
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Offline Soup DeVille

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2019, 06:54:22 pm »
Miles driven doesn't include reverse and idle time. For any given trip, from start to stop, modern on board fuel economy readouts should be very accurate. Older systems might not be.
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Offline MX793

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2019, 07:03:13 pm »
Miles driven doesn't include reverse and idle time. For any given trip, from start to stop, modern on board fuel economy readouts should be very accurate. Older systems might not be.

The vehicle's dash readout will decrement the trip MPG while sitting and idling in traffic.  At least on my cars it does.  Like if I gas up, then drive two miles down the road and hit a red light, I can watch the readout tick down about 1 mpg per second while I'm sitting there.  I have records for my first couple of years with the current Mustang.  It's dash readout has averaged over 4% higher than what I get when I divide the gallons put in by the miles driven on the trip meter (resetting also resets the MPG readout).  I've seen over a 7% difference on some fillups.  Obviously, some of that error can be my filling, but that will be no more than 1%.
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Offline GoCougs

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Re: If you can't beat 'em join 'em - Ford goes pooprod for 2020 Super Duty.
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2019, 07:10:26 pm »
"I want my twelve seconds." That kid on the bike would be angry I think.

Anyway, the reason why the gas pump method is off is because the tank-is-full shutoff is a rather crude process and thus terrible measurement device.

As stated prior, onboard MPG calculation takes into account the PWM pulses of the injectors (resolution to the milli gallon or better) and other things not mentioned prior, such as idling and and even gasoline volume changes due to temperature fluctuation.