Author Topic: Honey trap speed limits  (Read 415 times)

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Offline Morris Minor

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Honey trap speed limits
« on: August 08, 2019, 04:15:58 am »
There's a newly-widened road about 20 miles from here. When it was a two-lane the limit was 50.
During the widening project the limit was dropped to 40 - reasonable enough.
Now the work is complete: four wide lanes, billiard-table smooth, nicely re-striped.
Yes you guessed it - the 40 limit was retained.

I was driving home after the rush hour yesterday and there they were: four Hemi Chargers from the county sheriff's department , in black with low-vis markings. They were lined up faced into the road, spaced at intervals on the apex of a gentle curve where drivers on the other side of the road could not see them. Hidden somewhere else must have been the radar car - I did not see it.

Anyone coming the other way would not have stood a chance - lambs straying into a wolf pack.

40 on that road feels like you are crawling - it's way below natural - so it's a rich seam for the county to mine.

This cannot be a safety issue. If it were I would see them during rush hours, nailing the cretins who race through traffic, tailgating & jinking between lanes. But average speeds in rush hours are lower, so revenue gathering opportunities are correspondingly reduced.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:40:49 am by Morris Minor »
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Online RomanChariot

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 08:43:11 am »
They changed a road near me about 20 years ago. They put in a new section and widened the road to four lanes (2 each way). They then slapped a 30mph speed limit on it. Going that speed was excruciating but they enforced it heavily, especially at the bottom of the 2 bridges where cars tended to pick up speed. About 10 years later they decided to up the artificially low limit to 40mph and surprisingly there wasn't a drastic increase in fatalities.

The standard operating procedure around here seems to be that they place a "safety" based speed limit on all new roads that is really low and then when they get enough complaints they do a study to determine the speed that 80% of the drivers maintain on the road and up the speed limit. Of course, if the drivers didn't choose to speed they would never increase the speed limits. It's a nice catch-22.
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Offline giant_mtb

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2019, 08:46:51 am »
Did they put a center turning lane in when they widened it?

Offline Morris Minor

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2019, 09:15:03 am »
Did they put a center turning lane in when they widened it?
It now has a raised kerb median with breaks for turns onto side roads
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Online NomisR

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2019, 10:09:31 am »
I guess being in the US, you're used to a much faster speed, when I was driving in Japan and Taiwan, everyone is crawling in their cars.  I'm surprised at how slow people are driving especially when I was in Japan considering those are wide open roads.  I was just driving like a typical American of course.. I wonder if I got any speeding tickets in my aunt's car.  :lol:

Online dazzleman

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 05:42:14 am »
This is why a speeding ticket in the US confers bragging rights rather than social stigma.  Policies like this breed disrespect for the law.
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Offline Morris Minor

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 06:04:41 am »
Update: There was bit of a shitstorm - so the county raised the limit to... 45, which is still egregiously low, but less so than 40.
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Offline 12,000 RPM

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 06:27:54 am »
Stupid

The little country roads by my job are limited to 55. 65 is entirely reasonable. Sounds like that road could do about the same

I feel like people would be happier if police depts just asked for more money... with justification of course
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Offline AutobahnSHO

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 04:32:30 pm »
So I drive a 35mph road to work, single lane both directions, it's hilly and a little windy but most do 45mph. There's been an undercover car there in the mornings, half of the time sitting waiting, the other half already got someone.

On base they bumped up one of the main roads (4 lanes with turn lanes at most instersections) from 35 to 40mph and everyone seems to do 38. Until speed drops to 30, then they do 38. :rage:
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Offline Morris Minor

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 05:11:20 pm »
It would be interesting to see the stats: e.g. how many million Americans die every year doing say 40 in a 35 limit.
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Offline AutobahnSHO

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 07:48:45 pm »
It would be interesting to see the stats: e.g. how many million Americans die every year doing say 40 in a 35 limit.

There's a lot that goes into crashes/ fatalities. I'd say the most issues are where people feel they have to push the limits to get where they want to go, in less time:
-redlight running (T-bones)
-but then there are a lot of rearend crashes when they have redlight cameras
-poor merge areas, others. 

Military bases are wacky because they are very very very risk averse- they don't want any chance for crashes/ fatalities so you see lower speed limits, better sight lines, wider roads than you would see off-base.
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Online NomisR

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2019, 03:08:19 pm »
There's a lot that goes into crashes/ fatalities. I'd say the most issues are where people feel they have to push the limits to get where they want to go, in less time:
-redlight running (T-bones)
-but then there are a lot of rearend crashes when they have redlight cameras
-poor merge areas, others. 

Military bases are wacky because they are very very very risk averse- they don't want any chance for crashes/ fatalities so you see lower speed limits, better sight lines, wider roads than you would see off-base.

Rear end crashed along with red light running crashes are all easily remedied by increasing the duration in which all lights are in red along with increasing the duration of yellow lights.  Most of the time, those lights are reduced in order to increase revenue collection for red light cameras. 

Offline BimmerM3

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2019, 03:43:02 pm »
Rear end crashed along with red light running crashes are all easily remedied by increasing the duration in which all lights are in red along with increasing the duration of yellow lights.  Most of the time, those lights are reduced in order to increase revenue collection for red light cameras. 

I'm not sure I buy that. Longer yellow lights would just mean more people accelerating through them.
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Online NomisR

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2019, 05:01:00 pm »
I'm not sure I buy that. Longer yellow lights would just mean more people accelerating through them.

Those people who are going to speed through them will speed through them regardless, but longer yellow prevents people from stopping short creating rear end collisions.  Having longer lull period between red and green prevents t-boning for people running those yellows.

Offline AutobahnSHO

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 12:04:37 pm »
Those people who are going to speed through them will speed through them regardless, but longer yellow prevents people from stopping short creating rear end collisions.  Having longer lull period between red and green prevents t-boning for people running those yellows.

You'd think so, but people learn the length of the gap and use it.
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Offline Eye of the Tiger

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2019, 12:07:09 pm »
You'd think so, but people learn the length of the gap and use it.

The length should be known. There should be a countdown timer, just like the pedestrian signals. Intentionally witholding crucial information creates artificial danger.
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Online RomanChariot

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2019, 01:06:23 pm »
The length should be known. There should be a countdown timer, just like the pedestrian signals. Intentionally witholding crucial information creates artificial danger.

That's a good idea.
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Online FoMoJo

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2019, 01:14:18 pm »
The length should be known. There should be a countdown timer, just like the pedestrian signals. Intentionally witholding crucial information creates artificial danger.
So when they see it counting down they step on the gas to try and get there before it passes 1 and end up flying through a past yellow light while some other fool is getting a jump on the green going the other way.  I see this happening with drivers watching the pedestrian count down signals.
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Offline BimmerM3

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2019, 01:20:05 pm »
So when they see it counting down they step on the gas to try and get there before it passes 1 and end up flying through a past yellow light while some other fool is getting a jump on the green going the other way.  I see this happening with drivers watching the pedestrian count down signals.

Is that really a problem? I occasionally see someone take their foot off the brake and let the crawl start moving them forward, but I effectively never see someone actually pull into the intersection before the light turns. I'm sure it's happened once or twice in my life, but definitely not often enough that I'd design intersections around those people.
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Offline Eye of the Tiger

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2019, 01:45:48 pm »
So when they see it counting down they step on the gas to try and get there before it passes 1 and end up flying through a past yellow light while some other fool is getting a jump on the green going the other way.  I see this happening with drivers watching the pedestrian count down signals.

There is no logical justification for withholding important traffic control information in an attempt to control stupid people's behaviour. The stupid people can have their licenses suspended and be thrown in prison. The rest of us can increase road safety, make traffic flow more efficiently, and save gas.
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Offline CaminoRacer

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2019, 03:01:06 pm »
Brazil has countdown timers for green, yellow and red lights and I never saw any problems with them.
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Offline Eye of the Tiger

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2019, 03:08:30 pm »
Brazil has countdown timers for green, yellow and red lights and I never saw any problems with them.

Enlightened traffic lights.
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Online NomisR

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2019, 03:47:11 pm »
So when they see it counting down they step on the gas to try and get there before it passes 1 and end up flying through a past yellow light while some other fool is getting a jump on the green going the other way.  I see this happening with drivers watching the pedestrian count down signals.

I'm not sure why this is an issue.  You increase the yellow duration but also increase the time between red to green, so there's a duration where all lights are red.  So if anyone's in the intersection before it completely clears, someone is completely running a red light in a situation where no traffic laws or light changes would have made a difference.  If that's the case then what can you do about it? 

Online FoMoJo

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 03:48:17 pm »
Is that really a problem? I occasionally see someone take their foot off the brake and let the crawl start moving them forward, but I effectively never see someone actually pull into the intersection before the light turns. I'm sure it's happened once or twice in my life, but definitely not often enough that I'd design intersections around those people.
The problem is those blasting through the light after it changes.  For those going the other way, the second the light changes to green, they jump into the intersection without really checking.  Lots of accidents at intersections.
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Offline CaminoRacer

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 04:09:45 pm »
The problem is those blasting through the light after it changes.  For those going the other way, the second the light changes to green, they jump into the intersection without really checking.  Lots of accidents at intersections.

Nah people don't jump the green anymore. They stare at their phone until the people behind them start honking. :lol:
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Online FoMoJo

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 04:44:09 pm »
Nah people don't jump the green anymore. They stare at their phone until the people behind them start honking. :lol:
True too.
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Offline BimmerM3

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 08:18:16 pm »
The problem is those blasting through the light after it changes.  For those going the other way, the second the light changes to green, they jump into the intersection without really checking.  Lots of accidents at intersections.

Oh, yeah, that does happen, but I don't think a yellow light timer would have much of an effect either way there. It might even help
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Online FoMoJo

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 07:41:53 am »
Oh, yeah, that does happen, but I don't think a yellow light timer would have much of an effect either way there. It might even help
I agree, the only real deterrent for those who run lights after yellow is a stiff fine.  Unless a cop is sitting on the corner, the only other solution is cameras.
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Online NomisR

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 08:50:50 am »
Oh, yeah, that does happen, but I don't think a yellow light timer would have much of an effect either way there. It might even help

But what I proposed was not just the yellow though but also the time between changing red to green, both combined has shown to help.  Yellow is only to prevent rear end accidents because that has shown as a cause for rear end accidents.  Longer period between red and green has shown to prevent t-bone accidents because there's a period where nobody should be in the intersection.  If there's any accidents that happens as a result, it's pure inattentiveness or intentionally running a red that no amount of policing or light changes would fix.

Offline giant_mtb

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Re: Honey trap speed limits
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 09:26:14 am »
I just keep an eye on the pedestrian timers for basic intersections with lights.  Gets more complicated when you have turning lights and such.