This weekend our traffic enforcement

[Raza]

I suggest you read some more of what Jefferson had to say about the responsibilities that come with freedom then.

I think I'm okay, really.  I go by the Spiderman ethos.

[dsred]

You know I kinda blew this post off too quickly earlier- I was kinda in the middle of something and was taking a break.  I think I'm gonna come back to it.  

I think when an officer gets into a fight and then uses his taser aon a 17 year old or so- in a school- and then gets dragged through the liberal anti police media- and the public reads the liberal trash rag and starts making comments online about how the police officer was rogue and used police abuse and even called for him to be killed- I tend to get a little anti people.  When a Lansing man robbed a bank (if I remember right)at gun point and lead police on a footchase shoots at the cops and crawled under a porch- the police spend half an hour trying to get the man to come out peacefully- they send in the k-9 and he shoots and kills the dog and officers return fire killing - the 3 month media frenzy against the officers involved and their desire to see them fired - and worse - I start to not trust the people.  

When a police officer shoots a man for swinging a large metal rake at his head and kills him- and the people demand that he gets prison time- I start to lose trust in people.  When a police officer is sitting in his patrol car and a man pulls up to him like he is going to ask questions and shoots the officer in the face- I start to distrust people.  When a police officer pulls up behind a car that is sitting on the side of the road apparently broken down and the driver gets out and kills him- I start to lose trust in people

When an officer is called to a home because a man hears noises outside his house- and the officer checks the area- then runs the guys name and finds out he hads a warrant for probation violation and tries to get to his pistol under his belt to shoot the officer because he doesn't want to spend the 10 days required on the warrant and then escapes to lead the officers on a 15 mile 120 mph chase- I start to lose trust in people.

My point is that I don't trust one single citizen- When I approach you I intend to kill you if you try to hurt me until you prove to me you are not a threat.  Citizens will lie to get officers in trouble when nothing they have done was wrong.  It happens every single day-

I know we're not suppoesed to "bash" LEO's, but I just can't take this guy anymore.

You know what.... boo hoo hoo frickin hoo.... You my friend are exactly the kind of LEO that society DOES NOT NEED. It is NOT "us (cops) against them (citizens)".

We all have choices in life bub. It seems like you don't like yours. Maybe you need to take up a less stressful line of work. For your own good and everyone else's....

On Edit: Read thru the rest of the thread and saw that "Hounddog" claims to be your mentor. Now I understand everything.

PS- Bravo Raza. You are definitely more right than wrong on this, although the delivery could use a little work. Most cops aren't in it to "protect and serve". They are in it for the power and perks the job provides. I thought the recent changes in regards to physcological testing were designed to rectify that but in many departments nepotism and cronyism still reigns supreme.

[dsred]

It has to be that way because if you are a trained driver, and you are driving at 80% of your ability (which is what a respected school will teach) and the rest of the drivers around you are driving at 80% of their ability, then it is you which is the dangerous one.  Why? you ask?  Because it is you who is creating the dangerous situations simply because you are driving faster than the others (generally), and making a situation where they will not be able to correct any improper actions they commit in relation to your more controlled speeds.  Example~ you are traveling 25mph faster than the traffic.  A much lesser trained person starts to merge into your lane.  They do not have the training to deal with your closing speed, and may do anything from over-react to under-react.  The fault was yours.

So, it because you are creating a dangerous situation, you must be treated the same as anyone else creating a similarly dangerous situation.

This has to be the biggest case a flawed logic I have ever seen.

[L. ed foote]

We don't trust you as a matter of survival, something someone who has never served in the military or law enforcement can possibly understand.   

I've never served in the military nor have I been in LE, and I can understand the idea of "having someone's back."

[the nameless one]

I was merely using a base-line number of 10% as an illustration of how the numbers wouldn't even be close.  I do not believe that there are currently even 1,000 corrupt officers currently employed in this country.  Unfortunately, I have nothing to back up my beliefs. 

I do, however, believe that there are 30,000,000 criminals in this country.  Incarcerated or otherwise.

The number of criminals is readily quantifiable if you use the criteria I stated. I don't know what definition of "criminal" or criteria you are using to reach a 30 million number.

[Soup DeVille]

The number of criminals is readily quantifiable if you use the criteria I stated. I don't know what definition of "criminal" or criteria you are using to reach a 30 million number.

Speeding is a crime. 99% of all motorists ahve sped at one time or another. Therefore, approximately 150 million people in this country are criminals.

[the nameless one]

Speeding is a crime. 99% of all motorists have sped at one time or another. Therefore, approximately 150 million people in this country are criminals.

Ah, no. A speeding offense, at least in my state, is not a crime. It is :
2. "Traffic infraction" means any offense defined as "traffic
infraction" by section one hundred fifty-five of the vehicle and traffic
law.
A 'crime" is defined as :
"6. "Crime" means a misdemeanor or a felony."
Source:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a5.html

[Soup DeVille]

Ah, no. A speeding offense, at least in my state, is not a crime. It is :
2. "Traffic infraction" means any offense defined as "traffic
infraction" by section one hundred fifty-five of the vehicle and traffic
law.
A 'crime" is defined as :
"6. "Crime" means a misdemeanor or a felony."
Source:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a5.html

OK then...

[dazzleman]

I've never served in the military nor have I been in LE, and I can understand the idea of "having someone's back."

Growing up in the projects is more than the equivalent of military or law enforcement training, man....

[sparkplug]

I find sometimes respected businessmen do crooked things and act without integrity. You don't say everyone is crooked. We have to have proof. In fact the law of the land is that a person is innocent until guilty. We should regard our police with the same respect. They are here to protect and serve, as well as protect the donut industry. Their jobs on the road are to enforce speed limits on the road and enforce DUI/DWI laws because speeding and drunk driving are without a doubt the two biggest factors in vehicular accidents. They do this to protect the citizens who drive these roads lawfully. It is for our benefit. They don't do it perfectly. But what to you want. Without men to enforce the law and without respect for the laws of the land then you would have anarchy. Can you imagine what the highways would be without them. Imagine if everybody drove 120mph in a school zone.

[L. ed foote]

Without men to enforce the law and without respect for the laws of the land then you would have anarchy. Can you imagine what the highways would be without them.

If you've driven for any length of time, you know that people travel at various speeds above the limit.  Having enforcement won't change that.

[etypeJohn]

The analogy stands. 
Only if the spill can take an overt action to kill or injure you.  Would you help a volunteer fire unit that was short handed rescue kids from a burning building?


And no.  I wouldn't help an officer.  They took a job where they would put their own life in risk on a daily basis.  If they didn't want that job, they wouldn't have taken it.  They could have done anything in the world.  Sales, accounts, tending bar, but they chose a job where they could get a badge and a gun and have some power over people.  They wouldn't have taken the job if they didn't want their lives in danger.

Apparently those who say it's a thankless job are correct after all.  Maybe its a difference in generations and the values instilled in each.  Given the circumstances where I could help an officer and that help was accepeted (many times the officer doesn't want or need a citizen's help) I would certainly do what I could to help.

[Champ]

Can you imagine what the highways would be without them. Imagine if everybody drove 120mph in a school zone.

That clearly wouldn't happen if everyone knew cops were gone.  People generally drive what is safe for their current conditions, and some writing on a metal sign generally isn't right 100% of the time.

[Tave]

I agree with Rohan on the point of public scrutiny.  Well, to a point.  Far too often, people are quick to lay guilt on the police without knowing all the facts or the policies that dictate their actions.  On the other hand officers must learn how to avoid alienating the average citizen. I have found that the more a department works with their communities the better the support.   

What a rational post. This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[hounddog]

Growing up in the projects is more than the equivalent of military or law enforcement training, man....

Except that those in gangs will not do what is required to ensure your (as their partner) safety, including taking a round for their partner.  They also are not willing to die trying to retrieve a downed comrade.  Gang bangers run because they have no "code" which requires honor above all else.

[hounddog]

I've never served in the military nor have I been in LE, and I can understand the idea of "having someone's back."

You can, because you seem someone with honor based on your many intelligent posts.  And there are many here who share you qualities, however, there are some here who could not understand that conviction, let alone the principle of honor. 

[hounddog]

This has to be the biggest case a flawed logic I have ever seen.

You are right.  The driver who was speeding and was involved in a crash where the speed was a large cause of said crash, surely isn't more than 51% at fault.  

[hounddog]

I know we're not suppoesed to "bash" LEO's, but I just can't take this guy anymore.

You know what.... boo hoo hoo frickin hoo.... You my friend are exactly the kind of LEO that society DOES NOT NEED. It is NOT "us (cops) against them (citizens)".

We all have choices in life bub. It seems like you don't like yours. Maybe you need to take up a less stressful line of work. For your own good and everyone else's....

On Edit: Read thru the rest of the thread and saw that "Hounddog" claims to be your mentor. Now I understand everything.

PS- Bravo Raza. You are definitely more right than wrong on this, although the delivery could use a little work. Most cops aren't in it to "protect and serve". They are in it for the power and perks the job provides. I thought the recent changes in regards to physcological testing were designed to rectify that but in many departments nepotism and cronyism still reigns supreme.

Do you have any proof to support you claims?  Rohan was simply llustrating that it appears to many officers that the society they are willing to die for does not support thier efforts.  He was clearly using those examples to demonstrate as to why LEO's become disconnected with society. 

If you do not like his, my, or any other LEO posts, please feel free not to read them. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

You are right.  The driver who was speeding and was involved in a crash surely isn't more than 51% at fault.   

Perhaps certain other parties should have signaled and looked before pulling into the evile speeder's right of way.

[hounddog]

Perhaps certain other parties should have signaled and looked before pulling into the evile speeder's right of way.

Please note I edited my post to be more specific.

[the nameless one]

That clearly wouldn't happen if everyone knew cops were gone.  People generally drive what is safe for their current conditions, and some writing on a metal sign generally isn't right 100% of the time.

What would stop them from driving 100 MPH in the school zone? Civilization might last a day or to without the police, but within a week you'd have anarchy. It wouldn't even be safe for you to be on the road at all,let alone drive 100 MPH in a school zone, because the carjackers would be preying on anyone who wasn't armed without repercussion. Those of you with fancier sports cars might as well kiss them all goodbye because someone going to stick a gun up your nostril and kick you out of the drivers seat. You'll be lucky if thats all they do to you.

[Champ]

What would stop them from driving 100 MPH in the school zone? Civilization might last a day or to without the police, but within a week you'd have anarchy. It wouldn't even be safe for you to be on the road at all,let alone drive 100 MPH in a school zone, because the carjackers would be preying on anyone who wasn't armed without repercussion. Those of you with fancier sports cars might as well kiss them all goodbye because someone going to stick a gun up your nostril and kick you out of the drivers seat. You'll be lucky if thats all they do to you.

Hi this is my friend "off on a tangent," although it looks like you two have already met.

[L. ed foote]

You can, because you seem someone with honor based on your many intelligent posts. 

Check's in the mail! 

[the nameless one]

That wasn't a tangent, that was an observation. A tangent would have taken several paragraphs.

[dazzleman]

Except that those in gangs will not do what is required to ensure your (as their partner) safety, including taking a round for their partner.  They also are not willing to die trying to retrieve a downed comrade.  Gang bangers run because they have no "code" which requires honor above all else.

All true, but Foote turned out to be a good guy despite having lived in a rough environment.  That's a good base for much of what is required of LEOs.

[dazzleman]

That clearly wouldn't happen if everyone knew cops were gone.  People generally drive what is safe for their current conditions, and some writing on a metal sign generally isn't right 100% of the time.

I think you give some people too much credit.  Enforcement will always be necessary.

[James Young]

Rohan writes:

I'm shocked you can't prove your anti police BS.

No more than you can prove that you?re doing god?s work as a LEO.   I put out observations and evidence of particular behaviors, give explanations that also predict future behavior and synthesize all this with extant bodies of knowledge, some common, some esoteric.

If you want to believe that I?m just anti-police and not just anti-institutional behavior, then you can certainly enjoy that delusion.  You won?t learn anything from it but you may enjoy it.

1st- Link showing it cost over a trillion dollars- not saying it's not true I'ld jus tlike to see if you can prove it.  And- yes let's throw more money at the education system because as we all know more money for teachers is the answer.

This is not the sort of thing that you?ll find with an Internet link.  You?re going to have to go to some scholarly journals.  You can find articles about this in the The  Southern Economic Journal, in The American Economic Review, and The International Journal of Finance and Economics.

To be fair, there are lots of ?studies? out there, primarily from insurance companies and shock artists, that try to show that the reduced fatalities after NMSL was implemented actually saved money.  It is not true, of course, since fatality rates fell before NMSL and then rose right afterwards.  However, the large drop in absolute numbers of fatalities was because the amount of driving dropped off dramatically.  But I digress.

If you believe that leaving kids ignorant is acceptable, you?re certainly entitled to that opinion but the cost of that ignorance will be extremely high.  Or perhaps you?re just a cranky old reactionary. 

Do you have some proof that was the ONLY reason the pd's were created?  Could it possibly be that maybe these small villages wanted police services?  No- couldn't possibly be that.   ???

No, it couldn?t be since they don?t perform police functions except traffic stops, leaving real LE functions to the county sheriffs.  The traps in Ohio and Oklahoma have been forthcoming in their use of citations as the major source of revenue for those villages.  Caney, Stringtown and Roland (all OK) were on the verge of bankruptcy when a bill sneaked through (literally in the wee hours of the morning and by self-admitted mistake) that allowed them to once again prey on motorists.

Yeah- it's the police who are fanatics.  Not guys like you.  And by the way so your sitting in prison somewhere for a drug charge?

Some of them are.  The news is replete with instances of cops voiding citations for sexual favors, lying in court testimony, planting evidence, etc.  The problem is not the number who do it but the body of ?good cops? who let them get away with it.  Why do you think that we have at least 200 cases where death penalties have been overturned due to actual innocence but a conviction occurred because of flawed procedure or false testimony? 

I don?t use drugs.  I?m not in prison (in fact, I?m at a five-star resort with the sun setting behind the mountains, sipping a nice glass of the chardonnay that we make).

However, you missed the critical part of my post:  you must remove your blinders because they limit not only your sight but your vision, your perception, your ability to grow  and your life.  You keep making the same stupid mistakes and voicing the same unfounded opinions.  For example, have you even considered that the war on drugs does more harm than the drugs themselves.  Of course you didn?t.

I'll answer this one honestly- every patrol deputy is sent to both AI-1 and AI-2 and before they go to them they aren't allowed to fill out anything more than car/deer and simple fender bender stuff and all of that is reviewed by a shift AI and then by a Sgt and then sent on to our Traffic Crash Division which is a fancy name for a deputy who is our most trained and highest level AI.  But all those measure s are standard - it gives him a chance to review our info and determine if we've made good sound choices.  But I have to admit we do take lots of crashes.

Whoa, break out that jargon again.  The answer lies in thoughtful analysis, not jargon.
?TNO? is ?the nameless one,? deputy sheriff from Tompkins County, NY, and a long-time advocate of citizens speaking out for extra speed enforcement.  It doesn?t seem to happen that way at all the other places with which I?m familiar ? and believe me, I ask about it --  so I?ve asked him to explain why TC is so anomalous but he can?t do it.

The point about the 80+ year-olds was that they?re not complaining about lack of speed enforcement but too much of it.

What data is mine?  I didn't present any data so don't call it mine.

NHTSA gets their data in large part from police reports.  If you?ve ever completed an accident report, that went straight to NHTSA (by law for fatal and, I believe, injury crashes). 

Yeah because- you know- all 12 year olds are really concerned enought to make sure that speed limits get dropped.

That doesn?t even make sense.  Even as a 12-year-old, I did not try to lower (or raise, which is probably what you meant) speed limits.  At that point, what I did was a search of the literature.  Later, in my thirties, I lobbied state legislators in OK, TX and CA; I wrote articles; I spoke in public forums about the damage of NMSL; I spoke truth to authority. My group and I were right and the authorities were wrong as is abundantly clear in retrospect.  They lied and it cost America huge money and a huge shot to civil liberties, pioneering the nanny state and all its damages. 

You are a troll of the highest order and for that one thing I salute you.

Wow, thanks.  That?s like being called ugly by a toad.

[omicron]

[hounddog]

No more than you can prove that you’re doing god’s work as a LEO. 

You may have Randy confused with me.  I am very religious, and I make no bones about it.  As far as I know, Randy is only on the fringes of belief. 

[James Young]

You may have Randy confused with me.  I am very religious, and I make no bones about it.  As far as I know, Randy is only on the fringes of belief. 

It was a metaphor.