This weekend our traffic enforcement

[Raza]

Just because a law is on the books doesn't make it right.

Slavery was once legal, remember?

[Eye of the Tiger]

if you go faster the odds of you crashing go up. 

I don't believe that. I bet there low-speed crashes are far more numerous than high-speed crashes. The number of fatal crashes, of course, increases with speed, but using that logic, nobody should move. Ever.
We could also pass a law that requires pedestrians to wear helmets. They would be safer, but nobody would do it.

[dazzleman]

The police were doing their jobs, and I can't hold that against them. But, the whole idea of what happened is just ridiculous.

I'm angry that they pulled over an entire group of traffic that was going the same speed, and was probably no less safe than if they had been traveling at or below the speed limit.

I should be happy that the crime rates are very low around here, but I'm angry that 5-6 cops had nothing better to do that sit on the side of the highway and point their radar guns at traffic. Is it really about "serving and protecting" at that point? I don't want my taxes paying for that kind of bullshittery.

I'm angry because the vast vast vast vast majority, let's make that 99.9%, of drivers could legally be issued a ticket nearly every time they drive. Any law that turns everybody into a lawbreaker is not a just law. Yet, nobody with any power can fight it, because safety has become directly associated with speed, and nobody wants to promote unsafety.

I understand your point, Nick, but I don't think it's worth wasting your time and energy getting angry about it.

Our speed laws are a product of the public's hypocrisy, as well as the ability of a vehement and organized minority to prevail over a less organized majority.

But don't make too much of the last point.  Many are against raising speed limits beyond where they are, and many of these people violate the speed limits that they favor keeping in place.

I think we have to get past the idea that some people seem to have that there's this force that's oppressing us against our will with speed enforcement.  The legislators that we have elected put these speed limits in place and maintain them.

I think we also have to get past the expectation of expecting the law to perfectly address every circumstance.  Safe speeds are the product of a number of different circumstances -- weather, road conditions, traffic, driver ability, type of car, etc.  The law can't possibly address all these factors, so there has to be a judgment made as to where to draw the line.

And we can't just say it's OK for everybody to make their own speed limit, though that is what many, including me, do.  However, when people do that in defiance of the law, they must recognize that they could face legal punishment for it, and not become angry when it happens.  The choice always exists to obey the law.

I personally think that in many cases, our speed limits are on the low side, but to be fair, any time I've been ticketed, I was going well in excess of the speed limit, so it's hard for me to argue that I was ticketed unfairly.  I would prefer higher speed limits on some roads, coupled with stricter penalties for breaking them.  I think that forcing more serious lawbreakers to give up their TIME to projects like community service, rather than just fining them, would be pretty effective for all but the most hard-core offenders.

In the grand scheme of things, the situation you describe with people being tagged for speeding is one of the problems out there that bother me the least.  There are many worse things out there.

[dazzleman]

For the record, I have no problem being named specifically regarding this.  Also for the record, I used to be more even headed.  I have alot of trouble with my temper, something that is new to me these days, and I find myself needing to apologize to people far more often because of it.  My intention is not to be a bully.  If I am being one, I will definately try to correct it.  I am just really passionate about this general topic, and sometimes I display far too much vim and vigor.  I will attempt to curtail some of that in the future. 

As for Randy, I think to say he follows me around is a bit too harsh.  I trained him and was his partner for a few years, so naturally he and I will agree in many areas.  Beyond that, we are like brothers and spend lots of free time together.  He friendship has been unconditional and has helped my family recover from some very bad times.  He has, without any input from me other than the reference phone call, ascended to a high position within only a four year time at his new department.  One that displays just how much he is valued as a police officer within that county.  He is very experienced, and extremely knowledgable even though sometimes not well spoken.  He is a blue~collar fella who is grateful to have been given the opportunities he has.  In my own opinion, most would be lucky to have him as a friend.

Tony, I think it's overkill to call you a 'bully.'  You have the toughness I'd expect from a former football player and cop.  Let's face it -- pansy asses don't deliver the ball to the end zone, and don't come out on top in the daily battle with the criminal element.

I do think you're inclined though to believe a little too much of your own propaganda.  I think Randy goes further than you do in that respect, and has exhibited a potentially hazardous attitude of regarding the public as the enemy.

I can understand picking up that attitude if you work in certain types of communities, but I think it's a mindset that can make a police officer do foolish things, so it's good to take a step back from time to time and examine those attitudes.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I agree with you 100%, Dave, but in this case, the thing that got to me was that a whole line of traffic got ambushed. Who seriously advocates those kind of tactics?

[hounddog]

I agree with you 100%, Dave, but in this case, the thing that got to me was that a whole line of traffic got ambushed. Who seriously advocates those kind of tactics?

In Michigan, it is common to stop a geoup of cars.  In fact, most traffic officers I know have stopped two or three cars at once. 

It is clearly not a safe practice to do, and it is tactically unsound.  But, sometimes it is good for the public to see they can not hide in a group.  I am being honest when I say that I believe most officers write tickets with the right intentions of public safety.  It is the administrators that corrupt that honorable desire with revenue in mind.

[dazzleman]

I agree with you 100%, Dave, but in this case, the thing that got to me was that a whole line of traffic got ambushed. Who seriously advocates those kind of tactics?

Why should that bother you if they were all going 15+ mph over the speed limit?

I don't see what difference it makes how many people were pulled over, as long as the were all breaking the law.

[dazzleman]

In Michigan, it is common to stop a geoup of cars.  In fact, most traffic officers I know have stopped two or three cars at once. 

It is clearly not a safe practice to do, and it is tactically unsound.  But, sometimes it is good for the public to see they can not hide in a group.  I am being honest when I say that I believe most officers write tickets with the right intentions of public safety.  It is the administrators that corrupt that honorable desire with revenue in mind.

Interesting point, Tony.  I've generally found that I can hide in a group.  If the people around me are doing around the same speed I am, I find that my chance of being ticketed is virtually nil.  I've even passed cops at fairly high speed in a large group of cars, and I've never gotten busted under those circumstances.

I applaud the police when they show they can take on a larger group of lawbreakers, whether it be speeders or people engaged in more serious crimes.  The idea that you can get away with something if a lot of other people are doing it too can be a dangerous one for society.

[hounddog]

Tony, I think it's overkill to call you a 'bully.'  You have the toughness I'd expect from a former football player and cop.  Let's face it -- pansy asses don't deliver the ball to the end zone, and don't come out on top in the daily battle with the criminal element.

I do think you're inclined though to believe a little too much of your own propaganda.  I think Randy goes further than you do in that respect, and has exhibited a potentially hazardous attitude of regarding the public as the enemy.

I can understand picking up that attitude if you work in certain types of communities, but I think it's a mindset that can make a police officer do foolish things, so it's good to take a step back from time to time and examine those attitudes.

Thaks, Dave.  I know I come across too strong on occasion.  I am not proud of that, I used to be a much better debater.  Now emotion seems to run my ship, something I am deeply ashamed of.

Randy takes his job very seriously.  Not anymore than any others here, but understand from seeing first hand what can happen to officers when they let their guard down.  We have both lost very good friends to people who were supposed to be "harmless."  I taught him to be untrusting.  But, Randy is now in charge along with another sgt. of his departments training programs.  He buys into what he is selling, plain and simple.  And, he has to for his guys to buy into it as well.  If he fails in his job, someone can die.  He takes that responsibility very seriously.  It just comes across very stiff because of what that responsibility means to him.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Why should that bother you if they were all going 15+ mph over the speed limit?

I don't see what difference it makes how many people were pulled over, as long as the were all breaking the law.

It bothers me because it's bullshit! 

[hounddog]

You ain't nothin' but a hounddog,
Cryin' all the time.
You ain't nothin' but a hounddog,
Cryin' all the time.
You ain't ever caught a rabbit
You ain't no freind of mine...

I love that song.  It is one of two reasons for my 'name.'  Thanks for brining that up.

[hounddog]

It bothers me because it's bullshit! 

That is your right to think that. 
But, you are in the minority here.  Even in the generous confines of this forum where others are generally enthusiastic about fast driving.  Honestly, and without trying to be difficult, that should tell you something.

[dazzleman]

Thaks, Dave.  I know I come across too strong on occasion.  I am not proud of that, I used to be a much better debater.  Now emotion seems to run my ship, something I am deeply ashamed of.

Randy takes his job very seriously.  Not anymore than any others here, but understnad from seeing first hand what can happen to officers when they let their guard down.  We have both lost very good friends to people who were supposed to be "harmless."  I taught him to be untrusting.  But, Randy is now in charge along with another sgt. of his departments training programs.  He buys into what he is selling, plain and simple.  And, he has to for his guys to buy into it as well.  If he fails in his job, someone can die.  He takes that responsibility very seriously.  It just comes across very stiff because of what that responsibility means to him.

There has to be a balance I think.  I don't suggest officers be trusting of people without first verifying that they are in fact harmless.  I always support the police when they use their weapons against people who could credibly have been viewed a threat.  So I don't favor forcing the police to be overly trusting.

But there is a difference between not letting down your guard, and regarding the public in general as an enemy.  I think if an officer's mindset is the latter, it will ultimately hamper his job performance.

[Eye of the Tiger]

That is your right to think that. 
But, you are in the minority here.  Even in the generous confines of this forum where others are generally enthusiastic about fast driving.  Honestly, and without trying to be difficult, that should tell you something.

I'm in the minority here because this thread is where all the cops are!   

[dazzleman]

It bothers me because it's bullshit! 

On the contrary, I think that if a whole group of cars is traveling well in excess of the speed limit, it's a lot more fair to ticket them all than to pick one poor hapless guy and nail him.

Besides, there's strength in numbers.  I always felt a lot better about getting busted if a lot of people were in the same boat, rather than if I were singled out.

[dazzleman]

I'm in the minority here because this thread is where all the cops are!   

How many tickets have you gotten in your years of driving, Nick?

[Eye of the Tiger]

How many tickets have you gotten in your years of driving, Nick?

Four, I think, all for speeding. I admit, I may have deserved a couple of them because I was in/near residential areas, but the others were CRAP!
It's been over two-years now since I've gotten one...

[hounddog]

There has to be a balance I think.  I don't suggest officers be trusting of people without first verifying that they are in fact harmless.  I always support the police when they use their weapons against people who could credibly have been viewed a threat.  So I don't favor forcing the police to be overly trusting.

But there is a difference between not letting down your guard, and regarding the public in general as an enemy.  I think if an officer's mindset is the latter, it will ultimately hamper his job performance.

No disagreement.  I am merely attempting to explain Randy and his 'position.'  I would go so far as to say, "Blame me for his attitude."  

[hounddog]

I'm in the minority here because this thread is where all the cops are!  

Nicely put.

[dazzleman]

Four, I think, all for speeding. I admit, I may have deserved a couple of them because I was in/near residential areas, but the others were CRAP!
It's been over two-years now since I've gotten one...

You've been wronged!!!!!!
Fight the power!!!!!!!

Honestly, thinking that way will get you nowhere.  If getting a ticket bothers you so much, don't speed.

I choose to speed, but then it doesn't really bother me to get a ticket, and it's been 8 years since my last one (that's what silver hair will do for you..... )

When you've gotten pulled over, was it in a group, or just you?  As I said earlier, any time I've been in any sort of trouble, I always found it comforting to be part of a group rather than by myself.  I remember the last time I went to court, how relieved I was to see a long line of people in the same boat.  I had been to court before when there was practically nobody there, and I hated that.  I guess that attitude that I have goes back to my high school days.

[hounddog]

Interesting point, Tony.  I've generally found that I can hide in a group.  If the people around me are doing around the same speed I am, I find that my chance of being ticketed is virtually nil.  I've even passed cops at fairly high speed in a large group of cars, and I've never gotten busted under those circumstances.

I applaud the police when they show they can take on a larger group of lawbreakers, whether it be speeders or people engaged in more serious crimes.  The idea that you can get away with something if a lot of other people are doing it too can be a dangerous one for society.

Here, at least we used to, we had a tactic called "Wolf Pack."  One officer would set up a radar, laser, airplane timed section of the freeway.  Somewhere close by several patrol cars (as many as 5-15 or so) would set up and wait for the first officer running the speed maesurement to call out cars and colors and speeds and such.  The officers would then stay in line to get the next one.  If there happened to be a group they would take off as a group and pick them off one by one until either they had them all or they ran out of cops.

It is good fun, and it is effective in letting people know that area is targeted. Like any business, word of mouth is very important to our efforts.  If people are telling all of their co-workers when they get to the office what they saw, if we can keep just one accident from occuring because of this, we have done our job. We usually stayed in areas that had high crashes, or numerous complaints, or construction areas, etc.  We usually did not stay long, maybe a half an hour to an hour.

[The Pirate]

Here, at least we used to, we had a tactic called "Wolf Pack."  One officer would set up a radar, laser, airplane timed section of the freeway.  Somewhere close by several patrol cars (as many as 5-15 or so) would set up and wait for the first officer running the speed maesurement to call out cars and colors and speeds and such.  The officers would then stay in line to get the next one.  If there happened to be a group they would take off as a group and pick them off one by one until either they had them all or they ran out of cops.

It is good fun, and it is effective in letting people know that area is targeted.  We usually stayed in areas that had high crashes, or numerous complaints, or construction areas, etc.  We usually did not stay long, maybe a half an hour to an hour.

I've witnessed New York State Police doing the very same thing a few times.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You've been wronged!!!!!!
Fight the power!!!!!!!

Honestly, thinking that way will get you nowhere.  If getting a ticket bothers you so much, don't speed.

I choose to speed, but then it doesn't really bother me to get a ticket, and it's been 8 years since my last one (that's what silver hair will do for you..... )

When you've gotten pulled over, was it in a group, or just you?  As I said earlier, any time I've been in any sort of trouble, I always found it comforting to be part of a group rather than by myself.  I remember the last time I went to court, how relieved I was to see a long line of people in the same boat.  I had been to court before when there was practically nobody there, and I hated that.  I guess that attitude that I have goes back to my high school days.

If the cost of a ticket was relative to my current income (ZERO), I would be fine.
When and if I ever have more money that I know what to do with, tickets will become merely a nuisance, like a housefly. I will squash them! 

[Raza]

Dave, you're such an authority whore.  Never once think that the law shouldn't be in place, just because it is, you accept it. 

If the whole country were like you, we'd still be a colony.

[J86]

Dave, you're such an authority whore.  Never once think that the law shouldn't be in place, just because it is, you accept it. 

If the whole country were like you, we'd still be a colony.

Patriot was one TV last ngiht.

Braveheart in the 1700s!!!!!!

[dazzleman]

I've witnessed New York State Police doing the very same thing a few times.

Hah, I bet you've more than 'witnessed' that Adam. 

You've gotten in a lot of trouble for a guy who looks so innocent....

[Eye of the Tiger]

I still think we need to pass a law that requires pedestrians to wear helmets at all times.

[dazzleman]

Dave, you're such an authority whore.  Never once think that the law shouldn't be in place, just because it is, you accept it. 

If the whole country were like you, we'd still be a colony.

That's not the case at all.

I just think that if a law is so objectionable, we should fight to change it, rather than just break it and then bitch about getting busted on a forum.

In my hierarchy of things that really bother me, I put speed enforcement pretty low in the pecking order.  Just as a small example, I find feminazi control of the family courts much more disturbing, even though it has yet to affect me directly.

[hounddog]

Tony, I think it's overkill to call you a 'bully.'  You have the toughness I'd expect from a former football player and cop.  Let's face it -- pansy asses don't deliver the ball to the end zone, and don't come out on top in the daily battle with the criminal element.

I do think you're inclined though to believe a little too much of your own propaganda.  I think Randy goes further than you do in that respect, and has exhibited a potentially hazardous attitude of regarding the public as the enemy.

I can understand picking up that attitude if you work in certain types of communities, but I think it's a mindset that can make a police officer do foolish things, so it's good to take a step back from time to time and examine those attitudes.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that with Randy, police work was his salvation.  Police officers have been his only family for most of his adolescent life and all of his adult life.  It only stands to reason that he would feel so strongly about protecting those he cares most about. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

That's not the case at all.

I just think that if a law is so objectionable, we should fight to change it, rather than just break it and then bitch about getting busted on a forum.

In my hierarchy of things that really bother me, I put speed enforcement pretty low in the pecking order.  Just as a small example, I find feminazi control of the family courts much more disturbing, even though it has yet to affect me directly.

There are many laws that bother me more than speed limits, or traffic laws in general... but this being a car forum and all, that's just what I happen to bitch about most of the time.