The Craigslist/eBay/AutoTrader Thread

[GoCougs]

An LS will run cleaner and more efficiently they can be dressed up to look "stock" if needed

An LS (and its LT/Vortec/EcoTech brethren) will never, ever pass for anything made circa 1975 .

[Submariner]

Did pre smog cars see an increase in value in the 70s?  Seems to me that was the only way to get any kind of real power unless you modded the engines (was that possible?) on the new emission control models.

[shp4man]

Did pre smog cars see an increase in value in the 70s?  Seems to me that was the only way to get any kind of real power unless you modded the engines (was that possible?) on the new emission control models.

The price difference between a 75 Corvette and a 76 model is pretty substantial. With the right parts, you can get 500 HP from a late 70s Chrysler 440.

[Payman]

In the '70s, not really. They were seen at the time as being obsolete and outdated. The malaise era cars of the time barely lasted beyond their loans and warranties, and the scrap yards filled up with them. It wasn't until late into the malaise era, mid to late '80s, that people started to look back at the pre '74 stuff and realized these were pretty cool cars that were beginning to become scarce.

[Soup DeVille]

Did pre smog cars see an increase in value in the 70s?  Seems to me that was the only way to get any kind of real power unless you modded the engines (was that possible?) on the new emission control models.

It was totally possible to mod those engines- for the most part they were the same engines as before with a lot of crap bolted on and with restrictive heads and intakes.

[JWC]

The price difference between a 75 Corvette and a 76 model is pretty substantial. With the right parts, you can get 500 HP from a late 70s Chrysler 440.

The cheapest used Datsun Z in the late seventies, in California, was the 260Z. Still carbed, but with all the smog. No one wanted it. I also remember that vehicles coming into California, ones not originally sold there, had to be fitted with a smog device before being allowed to stay in the state. I remember selling the kits; a thermoswitch mounted inline of the upper radiator hose that, if I remember, retarded spark.

Shop may remember also the smog patrol in the late seventies California. A vehicle that emitted smoke from the tailpipe for more than something like 10 seconds could be pulled over and ticketed. If it smoked more than that, it was subject to being impounded. The patrol cars were orange & white, where CHP was black & white.

[CaminoRacer]

An LS (and its LT/Vortec/EcoTech brethren) will never, ever pass for anything made circa 1975 .

Depends on who's looking at it. And I don't know what CA regulations are for post-75 cars. Is it a sniffer test? A visual inspection? both? I've seen LS's dressed up like engines from the 50s in show cars and they were decently believable if you weren't an expert.

The engine in my El Camino passed emissions standards for late 80s cars, with cat-less headers and high flowing intake/air cleaner. A fuel injected LS would do even better.

[GoCougs]

Did pre smog cars see an increase in value in the 70s?  Seems to me that was the only way to get any kind of real power unless you modded the engines (was that possible?) on the new emission control models.

If you talk to the old timers, cars from the muscle/pony car heyday were fun and all that but just as with cars from previous eras, neither the tech nor market desire existed to build cars that would endure - the five digit odometer was not a cost-cutting endeavor. No one at the time would have ever expected the collectible fervor that eventually followed, and by and large, the cars were not desirable by most in the '70s.

Yes, a smog motor could be modded, but with muted results, because of catastrophically low compression ratios (which is usually only fixed with new pistons, aka, a complete rebuild). But it's like buying a new Mustang or Camr today and throwing cams in it. Yes, it's possible, but too expensive and too much of a hassle for most owners as it voids the warranty and is asking for reliability headaches.

[GoCougs]

Depends on who's looking at it. And I don't know what CA regulations are for post-75 cars. Is it a sniffer test? A visual inspection? both? I've seen LS's dressed up like engines from the 50s in show cars and they were decently believable if you weren't an expert.

The engine in my El Camino passed emissions standards for late 80s cars, with cat-less headers and high flowing intake/air cleaner. A fuel injected LS would do even better.

The claim was visual state inspection; so, someone with decent knowledge, reference materials and some measure of expectation of job performance. Have been to many many shows and have never seen any such LS dressed up so: the LS and its brethren has no distributor and corresponding snake's nest of plug wires, which would be spotted at 20 paces.

[CaminoRacer]

The claim was visual state inspection; so, someone with decent knowledge, reference materials and some measure of expectation of job performance. Have been to many many shows and have never seen any such LS dressed up so: the LS and its brethren has no distributor and corresponding snake's nest of plug wires, which would be spotted at 20 paces.

The top shows in the country have cars with modified LSs to look more original. LA Roadster show, Goodguys, StreetRod Nationals, etc. I'm not talking about local shows.

Here's an "Oldsmobile Rocket"



But besides that, it's not that hard to get around CA's laws. You don't have to use an LS, you can build the SBC or Ford engine with better pistons, heads, etc. Put the stock air box on it for inspection.

[RomanChariot]

Emission inspections on newer cars around here are all done by reading the on-board diagnostic system. On older cars they still do a sniffer test and a visual inspection for required emission equipment. That means for many older cars they will be looking for a smog pump. They also check for a catalytic converter.

[FoMoJo]

It was totally possible to mod those engines- for the most part they were the same engines as before with a lot of crap bolted on and with restrictive heads and intakes.

I understood that even the materials, engine alloys, etc. took a nosedive.  No need for strong metals when power was so substantially reduced.

[GoCougs]

The top shows in the country have cars with modified LSs to look more original. LA Roadster show, Goodguys, StreetRod Nationals, etc. I'm not talking about local shows.

Here's an "Oldsmobile Rocket"



But besides that, it's not that hard to get around CA's laws. You don't have to use an LS, you can build the SBC or Ford engine with better pistons, heads, etc. Put the stock air box on it for inspection.

Inspired by, sure, but that would not past any sort of visual inspection - it's not anything other than LS, particularly WRT to a first gen Olds V8, since it not only had a distributor but also siamese'd center exhaust ports (aftermarket header shown):

[CaminoRacer]

Inspired by, sure, but that would not past any sort of visual inspection - it's not anything other than LS, particularly WRT to a first gen Olds V8, since it not only had a distributor but also siamese'd center exhaust ports (aftermarket header shown):

They're looking for the smog equipment and if it passes the sniff test. Close enough, especially since that engine wasn't dressed up to pass smog, just look more like a Rocket for the Oldsmobile it's in.

LA has the biggest collection of car enthusiasts in the country. People find ways to get around the inspections.

[JWC]

They're looking for the smog equipment and if it passes the sniff test. Close enough, especially since that engine wasn't dressed up to pass smog, just look more like a Rocket for the Oldsmobile it's in.

LA has the biggest collection of car enthusiasts in the country. People find ways to get around the inspections.

They always have. I've mentioned before that I had a friend/co-worker that owned a 1969 Firebird with the L-6 OHC 4v. That what it was when inspected. In the two year period between, it was a modified V-8. He would take a weekend to remove the v8 and installed the stock OHC 6cyl.

A lot of A/C Beetles got the same treatment, but the engine swap was a one-two hour chore.

[shp4man]

It would be relatively easy to disguise a SBC stroker 383 as a wheezing POS 305 in smog motor. 

[Soup DeVille]

I understood that even the materials, engine alloys, etc. took a nosedive.  No need for strong metals when power was so substantially reduced.

To some extent, yes. There were still substantial gains to be found.

[GoCougs]

To some extent, yes. There were still substantial gains to be found.

Maybe. Show me a block with higher nickel content, say, and I'll show you a motor with other compromises, such as less cast material.

Way more V8s were built and sold in the malaise era than in the muscle/pony car heyday - both from mostly dumping the inline-6 as the base motor and the rise of trucks as everyday drivers started by the then-new '73 "square body" GM trucks which sold a total of ~1,700,000 units (yes, you read that right!) in its first year alone.

Any motor has limits on how hard they can be built, but by and large, any motor of the malaise era could take a good deal of modding.

[GoCougs]

It would be relatively easy to disguise a SBC stroker 383 as a wheezing POS 305 in smog motor. 

Now THAT is easy to do, and surely has been done countless times. Trying with an LS? Not so much (ever).

[CaminoRacer]

You know that Chevy sells crate engines that meet CA regulations, right? Here's an LT1 ready to bolt right into any 1975-1995 car in California.

https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/e-rod-lt1

[FoMoJo]

Maybe. Show me a block with higher nickel content, say, and I'll show you a motor with other compromises, such as less cast material.

Way more V8s were built and sold in the malaise era than in the muscle/pony car heyday - both from mostly dumping the inline-6 as the base motor and the rise of trucks as everyday drivers started by the then-new '73 "square body" GM trucks which sold a total of ~1,700,000 units (yes, you read that right!) in its first year alone.

Any motor has limits on how hard they can be built, but by and large, any motor of the malaise era could take a good deal of modding.

Less material, less weight.  A stronger lighter engine.

[Soup DeVille]

Maybe. Show me a block with higher nickel content, say, and I'll show you a motor with other compromises, such as less cast material.

Way more V8s were built and sold in the malaise era than in the muscle/pony car heyday - both from mostly dumping the inline-6 as the base motor and the rise of trucks as everyday drivers started by the then-new '73 "square body" GM trucks which sold a total of ~1,700,000 units (yes, you read that right!) in its first year alone.

Any motor has limits on how hard they can be built, but by and large, any motor of the malaise era could take a good deal of modding.

I don't know whether you're agreeing or disagreeing here.

[Submariner]

You know that Chevy sells crate engines that meet CA regulations, right? Here's an LT1 ready to bolt right into any 1975-1995 car in California.

https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/e-rod-lt1

Wild.  Carberated engines new from the factory.

So Cali limits what engines you can put in cars of a certain era?

[CaminoRacer]

It's fuel injected, when it says CARB it's talking about the California emissions regulations.

I don't know all of the specifics since I don't live in CA nor do I care much about old cars newer than 1975. But the gist is you're not supposed to touch the emissions equipment that came on the car. The Chevy crate engines are approved by CARB since they come with cats and pass modern emissions testing.

[Submariner]

Ha, I meant something like this: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/small-block-engine/350-ho

[GoCougs]

Less material, less weight.  A stronger lighter engine.

My bet is probably not. There is no $$ benefit to making an engine stronger than it needs to be, or lighter, when everything else is cast iron, and the vehicle itself is on average 4,000+ lbs.

[GoCougs]

I don't know whether you're agreeing or disagreeing here.

Me either.

My bet is quality of blocks did not change, at least not purposefully, due to changes in material or alloys (i.e., because of much lower output of the malaise era).

The hi-po stuff such as AL blocks and heads and forged cranks were long gone by 1973, sure, but that stuff was super rare to begin with, and IMHO their absence does not constitute a "nose dive" in materials or alloys.

Most V8s ever modified came from the malaise era, and most held up just fine to minor/moderate changes (basically bringing them up to the peak of their original design intent - ~300-350 hp for small blocks, ~400-500 hp for big blocks).

[GoCougs]

Ha, I meant something like this: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/small-block-engine/350-ho

Note the disclaimer though - PARTS FOR USE IN COMPETITION ONLY (which means not legal for street use).

Of course, everyone ignores that, as they should, as 99% chance that even in an elevated state of tune such crate motors will run cleaner than the worn out 40+-year-old POS lump currently in the target vehicle.

[CaminoRacer]

Ha, I meant something like this: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines/small-block-engine/350-ho

Oh, yes. Chevy (and Ford) sell a decent amount of new crate engines for classic cars. Those aren't certified for cars newer than 1975 like the one I posted, but you could easily swap that one in a late 70's Camaro and make 2-3x the HP of the stock engine. If you kept the emissions control devices (at least for the inspection) it would pass just fine

[CaminoRacer]

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/3yAJ7jdE/1991-bmw-m5