Accord and Camry: Why Do They Sell So Well?

[BMWDave]

justsomeguy3116, welcome to the forums :)

I hope you post here a lot :)

[Antiriceman]

The Accord and Camry article was excellent. The Asian bias is out of control.I own a 2004 Malibu LT. The car is awesome!  It is a huge Camry and Accord eater.

[ifcar]

Thanks, and welcome to the forums! The current Malibu is a great car and a great deal. :)

[BMWDave]

The Accord and Camry article was excellent. The Asian bias is out of control.I own a 2004 Malibu LT. The car is awesome!  It is a huge Camry and Accord eater.

Welcome to the forums :)  Hope you enjoy posting here :)

[Raza]

Camcord!

Nice.

Well, you know where I stand.  The Camry is garbage (dynamically, of course), the Accord is pretty good,  but uninvolving.  When I shopped Camcord, I bought the slower, slightly more expensive Passat because it handled better and had the most involving drive.

I dropped my A4 off for service today and they gave me a FWD A4 automatic as a loaner (I was hoping for an A3, but apparently their whole fleet is FWD A4's  :P ).

Anyway its still a sporty car, even with the 16 inch wheels. At the same time its far more forgiving than my A4 over bumps (especially speed bumps...their are a few where I work where I have to be extremely careful with my A4 or it will hit the bottom). Power is still decent, but not as direct as mine (since I have a 6-speed manual of course).

I can see why you dig the Passat, assuming it drives the same as this A4. I thik I would take a TSX over a FWD A4 or FWD Passat though to be honest. But its close enough that i could see someone else taking the A4 or Passat depending on personal taste.

Sorry for being off-topic Ifcar. I read your article though and thought it was very scary. In other countries it seems like the domestic brands are always given the benefit of the doubt against outside competition. Its the imports that need to be better to get a buyer's attention (even then plenty of buyers will still ignore the imports). Honestly I totally understand that POV.

But to not consider a domestic simply because of its badge? Its...almost insulting to me. By my choice in car you can see I am not some blind domestic fanboy. But I have to admit if a domestic offered a RWD/AWD compact with a 6-speed manual I would be all over it.  

I just can't fathom the mind of a person that will purposefully ignore their own national products. At the risk of sounding like PMC it makes me think they really do take pleasure in the downfall of AMerican industry.  

It feels almost exactly like a FWD A4, down to the auto and everything.  I would take the TSX over it also, especially with a stick, but considering the TSX costs 28K and Acura wanted $500 a month on the same lease as the Passat, a car that was only 3K less.  Considering my brother's 50K E320 was $504 and mine was $550, including tax, I felt the TSX was a ripoff.  

[BMWDave]

This same topic at Autoweek has about 140 replies now and is ten pages long :o

[ifcar]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

[ifcar]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

[BMWDave]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

[ifcar]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

[BMWDave]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

[ifcar]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

How do you know they're from AutoWeek?

And let me just say that AutoWeek may have the worst forum that I have ever encountered. Populated by large numbers of ungrammatical idiots, and having the poorest excuse for forum software that I have ever encountered. I've been on two different free-software forums, and they were ages better.

Rant over.

[BMWDave]

I wasn't able to access AutoWeek forums yesterday night or most of this morning, it just started working. Sounds like I've got some catching up to do.

Never mind, I'd already seen all of that. No new posts since yesterday mid-afternoon.

The topic just exploded over there...how many pages was it at GMI forums?

35 replies at GMI, probably because there isn't much conflict, it was preaching to the converted over there.

21 replies at The Car Connection, where there is some dispute but few members.

64 replies at C/D, though five of them were a certain member posting lots of pics of a Camry to prove...well, that much wasn't clear.

Wow, so Autoweek really had the most replies.  And I think we got two members from Autoweek (justsomecarguy and Antiriceman)

How do you know they're from AutoWeek?

And let me just say that AutoWeek may have the worst forum that I have ever encountered. Populated by large numbers of ungrammatical idiots, and having the poorest excuse for forum software that I have ever encountered. I've been on two different free-software forums, and they were ages better.

Rant over.

I noticed one guy (justsomecarguy) who posted at Autoweek and then became a member here, and I dont really know where the other guy came from for sure.

And yes, their forum software is absolute, absolute, crap!  

[ifcar]

Anti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

[BMWDave]

Anti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

They both made 1 I believe.

[ifcar]

Anti-rice and a proud Malibu owner, I'm guessing he showed up from GMI. :D

Have either made more than one post?

They both made 1 I believe.

And we'll never see them again.  

[johndoe29]

Honda and Toyota are still one step above all other models in the midsize sedan category.  For the price you pay, you're gettin a lot more car in these to vehicles (Accord and Camry) than in others from Ford, Chevy, etc.  Both acceleration and fuel economy are better from these makers, reliability is still one step above others, and luxurious amenities such as heated, leather seats, world-class navigation systems (Honda), and the roomiest interiors available also lean consumers towards these models.  And why shouldn't they?  Most competition can not say this of their vehicles.

[ifcar]

What vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

[Raghavan]

What vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

am i allowed to say that i think that the CAmry and Accord are near best in class?

[ifcar]

What vehicles, exactly, are you referring to? Your rather open-ended "etc" suggests that you think the Accord and Camry are best-in-class in all the areas you mentioned, which certainly is not the case.

If that's not what you mean, please clarify, but if it is, the better family sedans can match what you've listed.

am i allowed to say that i think that the CAmry and Accord are near best in class?

Of course, as I am. And do.  

[Yoshi]

II hate to start off on the wrong foot here, but I have to challenge this article. It is a fine editorial, and one that is clearly preaching to the choir here, but there doesn't seem to be much substance in it.

The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous.

You ask why she wants another Camry and she says here current one is ?the best car I ever owned.? Rather than dismissing that claim it should have been clear that it the only reason she and many millions of others need to stick with one nameplate. It?s a part of brand loyalty. You don?t discuss this, but based on her comment it seems reasonable to assume she?s owned other cars? From one of the Big 3 perhaps?

Most humans beings, rational or not, cannot completely detach themselves from their past personal experiences ? or the experiences of those close to them. If she had a prior experience with ? as a hypothetical ? a Chevy and it included constant trips to the dealer to fix annoyances major or minor it will color her perception of the brand for years. If here experience with the Camry involves just regular maintenance ? aside from one unusual trip for the transmission ? it will have a completely different place in her memory.

She doesn?t need to prove to you that the Camry is technically or dynamically superior. That?s not even part of the process for her. Her own experience tells her that the Camry is more reliable than her previous car(s). And it has carved our very specific spot in her emotion and memory.  

I?m hoping people will respond so I can flesh this out a little. I want to leave with this thought though.

GM fully recognizes the lagging perception that it suffers from ? that it is still paying the price for mistakes made in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The Employee program is an attempt to fix that. They have a stable of high-quality, reliable vehicles today, and all reports are that the next generation of vehicles will be stylistically and dynamically outstanding.

They are bringing people in with exceptional deals in the hope that they will develop a satisfied consumer base who has experienced GM quality first-hand. Then the next generation can be launched without having to fight the uphill perception battle.

[Tom]

Yoshi, I think the point was that the woman had a bias.  She was unwilling to try new cars based on a preconcieved notion that the Camry is the best.  Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't consider other models.  

Welcome to Carspin :)  

[TBR]

"The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous."

If everyone viewed the car buying process as purely rational more Toyotas and Hondas would be sold, not less. Those cars don't appeal to peoples emotional sides, people don't drool over Camries (except maybe iffy ). Essentially, what I am saying is that for most Toyota and Honda buyers the car selection process is a by the numbers situation, I highly doubt many people chose a Camry because they are emotionally drawn to it.  

[ifcar]

II hate to start off on the wrong foot here, but I have to challenge this article. It is a fine editorial, and one that is clearly preaching to the choir here, but there doesn't seem to be much substance in it.

The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous.

You ask why she wants another Camry and she says here current one is ?the best car I ever owned.? Rather than dismissing that claim it should have been clear that it the only reason she and many millions of others need to stick with one nameplate. It?s a part of brand loyalty. You don?t discuss this, but based on her comment it seems reasonable to assume she?s owned other cars? From one of the Big 3 perhaps?

Most humans beings, rational or not, cannot completely detach themselves from their past personal experiences ? or the experiences of those close to them. If she had a prior experience with ? as a hypothetical ? a Chevy and it included constant trips to the dealer to fix annoyances major or minor it will color her perception of the brand for years. If here experience with the Camry involves just regular maintenance ? aside from one unusual trip for the transmission ? it will have a completely different place in her memory.

She doesn?t need to prove to you that the Camry is technically or dynamically superior. That?s not even part of the process for her. Her own experience tells her that the Camry is more reliable than her previous car(s). And it has carved our very specific spot in her emotion and memory.  

I?m hoping people will respond so I can flesh this out a little. I want to leave with this thought though.

GM fully recognizes the lagging perception that it suffers from ? that it is still paying the price for mistakes made in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The Employee program is an attempt to fix that. They have a stable of high-quality, reliable vehicles today, and all reports are that the next generation of vehicles will be stylistically and dynamically outstanding.

They are bringing people in with exceptional deals in the hope that they will develop a satisfied consumer base who has experienced GM quality first-hand. Then the next generation can be launched without having to fight the uphill perception battle.

Welcome to CarSPIN, and you certainly have a great start as a thoughtful, intelligent, and insightful poster. Starting out on the wrong foot would be coming and saying, in full, "i think the articles dumb. i have an accord, it has lots of miles on it and its a great car."  

Personally, I believe that any decision should be as rational as possible, particularly an expensive purchase. Brand loyalty goes firmly against all of that, and I am firmly against brand loyalty, for the reasons of bias stated in the article.

Yes, she has owned other cars. I'm afraid I don't know them all, but her previous car was a 1984 Celica (which she was not particularly fond of, but I believe it was reliable except for a rust issue that eventually killed it off), and her husband was driving at the time an 86 (?) 300ZX and an 88 Firebird. She bought the 96 Camry (after no cross-shopping) on a friend's recommendation.


As to the GM Employee Discount Program, there is a topic elsewhere on these forums about an article that compared GM's "conquest rate" (the percentage of buyers who traded in a non-GM car) of before and during the discount, and they were almost identical, suggesting what I had believed from the start: GM is merely winning its own customers, they are all just coming at once to get a better price (explaining the lack of a sales decline from import brands at the same month GM sales went up by almost 50%).

[ifcar]

"The entire premise seems to be that buying a car should be a purely rational process, devoid of emotion, memory or perception. That?s preposterous."

If everyone viewed the car buying process as purely rational more Toyotas and Hondas would be sold, not less. Those cars don't appeal to peoples emotional sides, people don't drool over Camries (except maybe iffy ). Essentially, what I am saying is that for most Toyota and Honda buyers the car selection process is a by the numbers situation, I highly doubt many people chose a Camry because they are emotionally drawn to it.

I disagree there. It's not the same sort of emotion that auto enthusiasts have, but an emotion nonetheless. It's the simple recollection of a simple and rarely flawed ownership experience that brings back the Toyota loyalists.

The Camry is not bought by those who want to think about either their buying or ownership experience. It's by people who want to go to one dealer, buy one car, and never have to think about it until they decide they want a new one.

The problem is not the ownership experience. I don't fault Camryites for that aspect. It's the laziness and fear to look around at something else that, in some cases, will offer the same experience either better, or for less money.

[Yoshi]

Happy to be here.

Camcords do create emotions, is just not the emotions of an enthusiast. People get emotional attachments to toothpaste after all -- there are Crest loyalists out there.

I suppose my issue with the rationality of car buying comes from experience. In my own personal choices, and in the choices of those I've know, the car is probably the most emotional purchace anyone makes.

There's a reason people dedicate their lives to maintaining classics. There's a reason Lexus and Infiniti has to be created. There a reason people own and drive H1s and Enzos in Manhattan.

The issues we have with those who blindly buy Camrys or Accords can be applied to anyone with a long-held loyalty. Those who will never consider anything other than a BMW. People whose whole goal in life is to own a Mercedes, though they've never driven one. Those who maintain that Volvo's still have a measurable advantage in the safety department. We can make all the rational arguements we want, but cars are an inherently irrational purchase -- which is why BILLIONS is spent on advertising, racing and promotions to sell them.

And I didn't mean to suggest that GM's effort was successful, just my belief on the thought process that lead to it. Since it's my damned theory I'm also going to suggest they extended it because they didn't like the demographics of the buyers they'd seen to date.

[BMWDave]

Yoshi, welcome to the forums :)  Its good to have you on board :)

[ifcar]

The issues we have with those who blindly buy Camrys or Accords can be applied to anyone with a long-held loyalty. Those who will never consider anything other than a BMW. People whose whole goal in life is to own a Mercedes, though they've never driven one. Those who maintain that Volvo's still have a measurable advantage in the safety department. We can make all the rational arguements we want, but cars are an inherently irrational purchase -- which is why BILLIONS is spent on advertising, racing and promotions to sell them.

I agree with you for all of your examples, but we differ at the conclusion. Cars CAN be a largely irrational decision, and are for most people. But they SHOULDN'T be, and spending a few hours researching and comparing cars can do a lot to limit the irrationality and help to find the best possible car.

And I didn't mean to suggest that GM's effort was successful, just my belief on the thought process that lead to it. Since it's my damned theory I'm also going to suggest they extended it because they didn't like the demographics of the buyers they'd seen to date.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and one that I don't recall seeing anywhere else.
While I suppose that is possible, I don't think that they have any indication that continuing a promotion would modify the demographics of those responding to it, unless they manage to come up with a new way to market the deal, which they haven't.

[Yoshi]

We do differ on the conclusion because I firmly believe that cars should be irrational. As wonderful as they are from a technical or engineering standpoint, my interest in them is as cultural objects.

Look at how communities spring up around specific models or brands -- how particular aspects of a vehicle clearly reflect the culture of its homeland. Actually, that's what's got me excited about the new Lexus models, they've got the first hints of a truly Japanese design in them.

Opposite sides of the same coin you and I.

And I am drawing wild, and unsubstantiated conclusions on the GM front. I know a couple people in marketing there and would like to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I accept that this was just a wild grab for sales it will depress me.  

[ifcar]

We do differ on the conclusion because I firmly believe that cars should be irrational. As wonderful as they are from a technical or engineering standpoint, my interest in them is as cultural objects.

Look at how communities spring up around specific models or brands -- how particular aspects of a vehicle clearly reflect the culture of its homeland. Actually, that's what's got me excited about the new Lexus models, they've got the first hints of a truly Japanese design in them.

Opposite sides of the same coin you and I.

And I am drawing wild, and unsubstantiated conclusions on the GM front. I know a couple people in marketing there and would like to give them the benefit of the doubt. If I accept that this was just a wild grab for sales it will depress me.

The Accord and Camry really don't fit in with the sort of irrationality that you discuss. The owner loyalty found there is simply out of fear that if they try anything different, it won't provide them with as good of a pleasant but boring driving experience, despite the fact that there are other vehicles out there that could comparably or better satisfy them. That sort of irrationality has only to do with which vehicle they happened to buy and like first, and it simply is not good for anyone.

As for your GM theory, you may very well be right. I just haven't seen the same conclusion reached anywhere else, and find it an interesting one.