Audi to add ceramic brakes as an option to A8

[BMWDave]

Audi to add ceramic brakes as an option to A8
JENS MEINERS | Automotive News Europe
Posted Date: 7/12/05
MUNICH, Germany -- Audi AG will offer carbon ceramic brakes on the A8 sedan starting this month. That makes Audi the fourth automaker after Porsche AG, Ferrari and Mercedes to offer the high-performance option.

Ceramic braking discs are much lighter than regular brakes - about 11 pounds a wheel in the Audi A8, compared with 22 pounds for regular metal discs. They do not rust and typically last about four times as long as conventional steel brakes. Audi claims they can last about 186,000 miles under standard braking conditions.

The technology was inspired by the carbon brakes used in Formula One racing. Composite ceramic brakes debuted on a production car in 2001 when Porsche offered them as an option on the 911 car. Since 2004 the option also is available on the Boxster. Porsche charges $9,443 for the technology, which is standard on the $545,944 Carrera GT supercar.

SGL Carbon of Wiesbaden, Germany, supplies the brakes to Audi and Porsche.

Italy's Brembo S.p.A. supplies ceramic brakes to Ferrari and Mercedes.

Ferrari introduced ceramic brakes as standard equipment on the 2002 Enzo limited edition. The technology is a $16,643 option on the F430 and is part of the $28,220 handling package available for the 575M Maranello and 612 Scaglietti.

Durability issue

Brembo pioneered the technology in 1980 for the Formula One racetrack. It took more than 20 years to get the brakes into production models because durability and responsiveness at low temperatures had to be improved.

The result is a better brake feel, no fade even under extremely adverse conditions, and a real-life stopping distance reduced by as much as 5 feet when going from 62 mph to zero because of the ceramic brake's quicker response.

Audi has not set pricing, but a company spokesman said it aims to undercut Porsche's prices significantly.

The brakes will be available as an option worldwide on the top-of-the-line A8 with the 450-hp, 12-cylinder gasoline engine. Audi sold 1,850 units globally last year. An Audi source said the company is expecting an initial take rate of about 20 percent, or close to 400 units annually.

Audi expects that the percentage of its models with ceramic brakes will rise sharply as soon as it brings the technology into volume production. The cost of the ceramic discs, which is now about 30 times as high as steel discs, then could drop to a cost three to four times as high.

Possible models

Likely candidates for the technology would be Audi's high-performance RS models, the upcoming mid-engine sports car based on the Le Mans concept, as well as lower-powered A8 models. While the current ceramic brake is designed for 19-inch wheels, Audi is developing a version for 18-inch wheels.

The technology will help Audi gain an edge over its chief competitors. BMW doesn't offer the brakes, and Mercedes uses them only on the limited-edition, 626-hp SLR McLaren.

BMW spokesman Thomas Gubitz said the company has reservations about the performance of ceramic brakes at low temperatures. He also cited the good performance of BMW's current conventional brakes.

"It's very easy. If it's possible to reach the same performance numbers with a normal brake, it makes no sense to use ceramics."

[Raghavan]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

[TBR]

I can understand these things being available on the RS4 or next S6, but why would a large lux buyer care whether or not his brakes will fade under conditions that a car will almost never see except on a track?  

[cozmik]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

Dude, in cars, 5 feet is huge. 5 feet can mean the difference between sliding underneeth that big rig and killing yourself and stopping safely. 5 feet is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides how do you determine that 44 lbs of a 4000 lb car is a lot but 5 feet of a 170 ft stopping distance is not? You tell me which is getting a better ratio of performance difference there...

[Raghavan]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

Dude, in cars, 5 feet is huge. 5 feet can mean the difference between sliding underneeth that big rig and killing yourself and stopping safely. 5 feet is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides how do you determine that 44 lbs of a 4000 lb car is a lot but 5 feet of a 170 ft stopping distance is not? You tell me which is getting a better ratio of performance difference there...

no, for the price, i expected at least 10-15 feet shorter distances. I never said that 44 pounds of a 4000+ car is alot. infact, i said that no one will care because it's so heavy. I just never expected ceramic brakes to be so much lighter is all.

[ifcar]

10-15 feet is never going to happen, the spread between the best and worst cars in a class is typically no more than that.

[Raghavan]

10-15 feet is never going to happen, the spread between the best and worst cars in a class is typically no more than that.

well, for the price and this so called technology, that's what i was expecting.

[ifcar]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

[Raghavan]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

how is another 5 feet unrealistic? especially when the brakes cost 10k...

[cozmik]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

Dude, in cars, 5 feet is huge. 5 feet can mean the difference between sliding underneeth that big rig and killing yourself and stopping safely. 5 feet is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides how do you determine that 44 lbs of a 4000 lb car is a lot but 5 feet of a 170 ft stopping distance is not? You tell me which is getting a better ratio of performance difference there...

no, for the price, i expected at least 10-15 feet shorter distances. I never said that 44 pounds of a 4000+ car is alot. infact, i said that no one will care because it's so heavy. I just never expected ceramic brakes to be so much lighter is all.

See bold. The A8 is about 4000 lbs, thus you implied that 44 lbs from a 4000 lb car was a lot. You did not say no one would care because it was so heavy, you just simply said they wouldn't care, no reason given.  

[giant_mtb]

They're putting them on the wrong cars, and they aren't worth it, IMO.

Sure, for the higher-performance models it's not a bad idea.

[Raghavan]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

Dude, in cars, 5 feet is huge. 5 feet can mean the difference between sliding underneeth that big rig and killing yourself and stopping safely. 5 feet is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides how do you determine that 44 lbs of a 4000 lb car is a lot but 5 feet of a 170 ft stopping distance is not? You tell me which is getting a better ratio of performance difference there...

no, for the price, i expected at least 10-15 feet shorter distances. I never said that 44 pounds of a 4000+ car is alot. infact, i said that no one will care because it's so heavy. I just never expected ceramic brakes to be so much lighter is all.

See bold. The A8 is about 4000 lbs, thus you implied that 44 lbs from a 4000 lb car was a lot. You did not say no one would care because it was so heavy, you just simply said they wouldn't care, no reason given.

i said that 44 lbs is a lot, not related to anything. then i said, would i luxurycar buyer even car about those 44 lbs. i never said that 44lbs off of a 4000+ car was a lot. i just didn't know that you could save that many pounds by switching to ceramic brakes.

[Raza]

wow. 5 feet shorter stopping distances.
but 44 pounds is a lot, but will a luxury car buyer even care? Audi should've debuted these things on the RS6 and the RS4, cars that actually are sports sedans, not luxo barges.

Dude, in cars, 5 feet is huge. 5 feet can mean the difference between sliding underneeth that big rig and killing yourself and stopping safely. 5 feet is nothing to sneeze at.

Besides how do you determine that 44 lbs of a 4000 lb car is a lot but 5 feet of a 170 ft stopping distance is not? You tell me which is getting a better ratio of performance difference there...

no, for the price, i expected at least 10-15 feet shorter distances. I never said that 44 pounds of a 4000+ car is alot. infact, i said that no one will care because it's so heavy. I just never expected ceramic brakes to be so much lighter is all.

See bold. The A8 is about 4000 lbs, thus you implied that 44 lbs from a 4000 lb car was a lot. You did not say no one would care because it was so heavy, you just simply said they wouldn't care, no reason given.

The A8 is much, much more than 4000 pounds.

[ifcar]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

how is another 5 feet unrealistic? especially when the brakes cost 10k...

They don't. According to the article, they cost $9K on the Carrera GT, and that price will be "significantly undercut" on the A8.

And having realistic expectations is necessary despite the cost. Technology isn't magic, and shorter braking distances aren't even the sole benefit.

[BMWDave]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

how is another 5 feet unrealistic? especially when the brakes cost 10k...

They don't. According to the article, they cost $9K on the Carrera GT, and that price will be "significantly undercut" on the A8.

And having realistic expectations is necessary despite the cost. Technology isn't magic, and shorter braking distances aren't even the sole benefit.

yup...were talking about less fade, more heat resistance, etc.  And they come standard on  the CGT.

[saxonyron]

Audi expects that the percentage of its models with ceramic brakes will rise sharply as soon as it brings the technology into volume production. The cost of the ceramic discs, which is now about 30 times as high as steel discs, then could drop to a cost three to four times as high

That's the key - this is new technology.  The fact that it's in the A8 reflects the fact that it's the top of the line.  For the money, I'd never do it - kind of like being the 1st one with a DVD playing laptop 4 or 5 yrs ago - the price plummets once they become yesterday's news.  But the performance gains are great.  I'm sure a big benefit will also be in brake feel, as well as the 5 less feet.  Hell, just to not have to worry about warped rotors ever again is worth it!  I guarantee that in less than 10 yrs, this will be a common option for luxo cars and hi-perf cars.  It just makes sense.

[Raghavan]

i wonder if we'll se them on econo cars one day.

[saxonyron]

i wonder if we'll se them on econo cars one day.

I'd guess not - no more likely than you find vented 4 wheel discs on an economy car today.  Hell, aren't a few makers still churning out drums?

[giant_mtb]

i wonder if we'll se them on econo cars one day.

I'm sure we will...they probably used to wonder the same thing about disc brakes - if they were going to use all-discs one day instead of drums.  And look!  It sure happened!    

[ifcar]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

how is another 5 feet unrealistic? especially when the brakes cost 10k...

They don't. According to the article, they cost $9K on the Carrera GT, and that price will be "significantly undercut" on the A8.

And having realistic expectations is necessary despite the cost. Technology isn't magic, and shorter braking distances aren't even the sole benefit.

yup...were talking about less fade, more heat resistance, etc.  And they come standard on  the CGT.

Not to mention a much longer life, didn't they estimate 150K miles in the article?

[BMWDave]

That's just a highly unrealistic expectation. It would be like expecting that paying for an engine upgrade from a 325i to a 330i would shave three seconds from its 0-60.

how is another 5 feet unrealistic? especially when the brakes cost 10k...

They don't. According to the article, they cost $9K on the Carrera GT, and that price will be "significantly undercut" on the A8.

And having realistic expectations is necessary despite the cost. Technology isn't magic, and shorter braking distances aren't even the sole benefit.

yup...were talking about less fade, more heat resistance, etc.  And they come standard on  the CGT.

Not to mention a much longer life, didn't they estimate 150K miles in the article?

They said 186K miles which is absolutely insane for the life of a brake.