Cross-Pond Primer: Brit Autos in the U.S.

[TurboDan]

by BMWDave himself:

http://www.carspin.net/content/archive/200..._car_primer.php

[ifcar]

British manufacturers couldn't be in a better state? While they certainly could be doing worse, they are certainly well below perfection. Most importantly, every one of their major manufacturers has either gone under or been bought out by a foreign company, and even with that aid some (like Jaguar) are still suffering.

They certainly could and should be in much better shape than they are right now.

[BMWDave]

British manufacturers couldn't be in a better state? While they certainly could be doing worse, they are certainly well below perfection. Most importantly, every one of their major manufacturers has either gone under or been bought out by a foreign company, and even with that aid some (like Jaguar) are still suffering.

They certainly could and should be in much better shape than they are right now.

I said for the most part.  And yes, there is always that mythical perfection that every carmaker strives for; to be independently owned, to have tons of money, etc. etc.  But considering that for the most part British manufacturers are doing extremely well at the moment, with Bentley sales up 447 % and Rolls Royce producing a stellar product, with upcoming models, and LR doing extremely well at the moment, those British manufacturers could not be in a better state, figuratively speaking.

[BMWDave]

Dan, was this posted anywhere besides c/d and CarSPIN?

[ifcar]

British manufacturers couldn't be in a better state? While they certainly could be doing worse, they are certainly well below perfection. Most importantly, every one of their major manufacturers has either gone under or been bought out by a foreign company, and even with that aid some (like Jaguar) are still suffering.

They certainly could and should be in much better shape than they are right now.

I said for the most part.  And yes, there is always that mythical perfection that every carmaker strives for; to be independently owned, to have tons of money, etc. etc.  But considering that for the most part British manufacturers are doing extremely well at the moment, with Bentley sales up 447 % and Rolls Royce producing a stellar product, with upcoming models, and LR doing extremely well at the moment, those British manufacturers could not be in a better state, figuratively speaking.

But being independently owned and successful isn't just some idealistic dream, there are lots of other companies that way now worldwide. Just because they used to be in worse shape doesn't mean that they're doing the best that can be expected of them.

[ifcar]

British manufacturers couldn't be in a better state? While they certainly could be doing worse, they are certainly well below perfection. Most importantly, every one of their major manufacturers has either gone under or been bought out by a foreign company, and even with that aid some (like Jaguar) are still suffering.

They certainly could and should be in much better shape than they are right now.

I said for the most part.  And yes, there is always that mythical perfection that every carmaker strives for; to be independently owned, to have tons of money, etc. etc.  But considering that for the most part British manufacturers are doing extremely well at the moment, with Bentley sales up 447 % and Rolls Royce producing a stellar product, with upcoming models, and LR doing extremely well at the moment, those British manufacturers could not be in a better state, figuratively speaking.

But being independently owned and successful isn't just some idealistic dream, there are lots of other companies that way now worldwide. Just because they used to be in worse shape doesn't mean that they're doing the best that can be expected of them.

[BMWDave]

British manufacturers couldn't be in a better state? While they certainly could be doing worse, they are certainly well below perfection. Most importantly, every one of their major manufacturers has either gone under or been bought out by a foreign company, and even with that aid some (like Jaguar) are still suffering.

They certainly could and should be in much better shape than they are right now.

I said for the most part.  And yes, there is always that mythical perfection that every carmaker strives for; to be independently owned, to have tons of money, etc. etc.  But considering that for the most part British manufacturers are doing extremely well at the moment, with Bentley sales up 447 % and Rolls Royce producing a stellar product, with upcoming models, and LR doing extremely well at the moment, those British manufacturers could not be in a better state, figuratively speaking.

But being independently owned and successful isn't just some idealistic dream, there are lots of other companies that way now worldwide. Just because they used to be in worse shape doesn't mean that they're doing the best that can be expected of them.

Just because they arent independently owned doesnt mean they are failures...Land Rover is doing better than ever under Ford.  So is Aston Martin.  And both Bentley and Rolls are producing stellar cars under their respective owners.  Sure you could always want more, and one can always do better.  But figuratively speaking, for the most part, British Automakers are doing amazing at the moment.

[BMWDave]

But besides that specific point, what did you think of the article as a whole?

[ifcar]

I didn't say that they were failures, I'm just contesting the idea that selling well as a division of another company is not the epitome of a successful manufacturer.

[ifcar]

But besides that specific point, what did you think of the article as a whole?

It was in-depth and well-written, but I entirely disagree with the final conclusion.  

[BMWDave]

I didn't say that they were failures, I'm just contesting the idea that selling well as a division of another company is not the epitome of a successful manufacturer.

Of course its not the epitome of a successful automaker.  Frankly, you can take any automaker and say they can always do better.  You can take Toyota, and say they can do better.  But you can always say that about any car maker.  Therefore, saying a automaker "could not be in a better state" is a figurative term which means that they are doing extremely well. :)  

[ifcar]

I didn't say that they were failures, I'm just contesting the idea that selling well as a division of another company is not the epitome of a successful manufacturer.

Of course its not the epitome of a successful automaker.  Frankly, you can take any automaker and say they can always do better.  You can take Toyota, and say they can do better.  But you can always say that about any car maker.  Therefore, saying a automaker "could not be in a better state" is a figurative term which means that they are doing extremely well. :)

If you're saying that they're doing much better than they were, that's one thing. But "couldn't be in a better state" means that they are doing the absolute best that they could possibly be expected of them, which they certainly are not.

[BMWDave]

I didn't say that they were failures, I'm just contesting the idea that selling well as a division of another company is not the epitome of a successful manufacturer.

Of course its not the epitome of a successful automaker.  Frankly, you can take any automaker and say they can always do better.  You can take Toyota, and say they can do better.  But you can always say that about any car maker.  Therefore, saying a automaker "could not be in a better state" is a figurative term which means that they are doing extremely well. :)

If you're saying that they're doing much better than they were, that's one thing. But "couldn't be in a better state" means that they are doing the absolute best that they could possibly be expected of them, which they certainly are not.

Let me try to explain this:

"Could not be in a better state" is a figurative term.  Of course I think that Rolls could be selling more cars, or Aston Martin more cars.  Of course they all could be better off, but they are all doing amazingly.

I could also say Toyota "could not be in a better state" since they are doing so well.  But any automaker can always do better.  Thats is why the statement of "could not be better" is a figuartive term.  

I agree with you that they theoretically could be doing better, but you can say that about anyone.  And thats why the term of could not be in a better state is taken to mean that the subject is doing extremely well;  it doesnt necessarily mean that they have reach the limit of their success.

[ifcar]

Saying that they're doing great now in comparison to their earlier situation is one thing. But you're implying that, like Toyota, they can't be expected to be doing any better. Which I disagree with.

Posting great sales numbers is fine, many of them are doing that. Some, not all, are turning a profit for their new owners. But ALL are owned by outside companies. That's not what I'd call being in the best shape.

[BMWDave]

Saying that they're doing great now in comparison to their earlier situation is one thing. But you're implying that, like Toyota, they can't be expected to be doing any better. Which I disagree with.

Posting great sales numbers is fine, many of them are doing that. Some, not all, are turning a profit for their new owners. But ALL are owned by outside companies. That's not what I'd call being in the best shape.

I am not implying they are in the same state as Toyota...I was merely bringing an example as to where this "figurative speech" could be applied.

[ifcar]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

[BMWDave]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)  

[Raghavan]

me likey, except the part that said they're better than ever.
you have a good writing style, too dave.

[ifcar]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

[BMWDave]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

I mean the former...they are doing better than they have been doing in a long time.  Of course they could always do better, but my phrase "couldnt be better" was just a figure of speech.

[BMWDave]

me likey, except the part that said they're better than ever.
you have a good writing style, too dave.

Thank you :)

And for my response to the first part of your post, just follow the argument between me and Ifcar  

[ifcar]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

I mean the former...they are doing better than they have been doing in a long time.  Of course they could always do better, but my phrase "couldnt be better" was just a figure of speech.

So by "couldn't be better" you meant "good, but could be better".  <_<  

[BMWDave]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

I mean the former...they are doing better than they have been doing in a long time.  Of course they could always do better, but my phrase "couldnt be better" was just a figure of speech.

So by "couldn't be better" you meant "good, but could be better".  <_<

Like I said, its a figure of speech.

[Raghavan]

i would've said, they're are getting better.

[Raghavan]

me likey, except the part that said they're better than ever.
you have a good writing style, too dave.

Thank you :)

And for my response to the first part of your post, just follow the argument between me and Ifcar

too long. :)  

[BMWDave]

i would've said, they're are getting better.

But its more than just getting better...I used a phrase which denotes that for the most part, they are in a very good situation now.

[Raghavan]

i would've said, they're are getting better.

But its more than just getting better...I used a phrase which denotes that for the most part, they are in a very good situation now.

i would've said:
British automakers are doing very well now, compared to their dismal past, but they can get even better, or something like that.

[ifcar]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

I mean the former...they are doing better than they have been doing in a long time.  Of course they could always do better, but my phrase "couldnt be better" was just a figure of speech.

So by "couldn't be better" you meant "good, but could be better".  <_<

Like I said, its a figure of speech.

It didn't really convey what you were trying to say then.

[BMWDave]

Fine. But it is illogical to say that the British automakers are currently being the best that they can be, however that's worded, considering all of their problems.

Higher sales do not mean that they are being successful.

And being owned by a certain other company certainly doesnt mean that they are being unsuccessful.

I think we are just arguing about the wording of the article, and we agree on the point... :)

That depends on what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that they're currently doing the best that they had in the last thirty years or so, or that they couldn't be expected to be doing better? I'll agree with you if you meant the former.

I mean the former...they are doing better than they have been doing in a long time.  Of course they could always do better, but my phrase "couldnt be better" was just a figure of speech.

So by "couldn't be better" you meant "good, but could be better".  <_<

Like I said, its a figure of speech.

It didn't really convey what you were trying to say then.

It really doesnt pay to argue this since we are both just going back on forth.  Let me explain what I meant:

The British car industry in the 80s and 90s was in disrepair, with sagging sales and all.  Recently, Ford purchased both Aston Martin and Land Rover, and they are both doing great.  BMW has RR, and Bentley has VW, which are both doing great.

Ultimately, one can say that this isnt the ideal situation, as it would be best if they were independently owned.   But every automaker has a mythical best case scenario.  Thus my statement that "they couldnt be in better shape" was a figure of speech, one intended to connote a sense of amazing success at the aformentioned automakers.  

I didnt intend for you to believe that I said most British cars have reached the best financial, etc, state that they could be in.  Because they havent.  But all the same, for the most part, British automakers are doing extremely well, relative to how they have been until now, and that was what I was trying to convey.

[ifcar]

I still think that it is vague, and even the way you explain it overdramatizes their success.