This Forum

[Catman]

How long? And why would he do that?

When car forums cease to be fun one has to take a look at some options.  Cops take a lot of crap on and off work so hearing it on a forum that's supposed to be a relaxing activity can push you over the edge.  If he never comes back I don't blame him. He was wrong for sending that PM but it I can understand it.  Unfortunately being an LEO brings added and sometimes unwanted attention. It comes with the job but that shouldn't mean you don't get frustrated with people.  LEOs on this forum are identified by their jobs quite often and it's very easy for any of us to take offense to comments like "Fuck the Police" and other blanketed, rude and childish statements.  We're regular guys but we're also police officers and right or wrong we are looked at differently than most people.  It's a job and it would be nice if we were treated like everyone else but we're not.  It's a lot different than other professions and the isolation from general society makes us defensive.  Just the way it is.

[dazzleman]

Randy took some responsibility for what he did.  That's more than can be said for some people.

Greg is right that we ought to treat LEOs like everybody else when they're not on duty.  They're regular people who need a place to relax from the stresses of everyday like just as much as anybody else.

[Rupert]

I often find it hard to look at the posters who are LEOs as anything but that, especially when that mere fact seems to be brought up by them a lot. That doesn't happen with all of the LEO members, but when it does, it's detrimental to the whole "cops are people, too" thing, even though that's pretty obvious (that LEOs are regular people). The world in general, and the popular media especially, really tend to show LEOs as one-dimensional. The attitude of some LEOs is also really frat-boy like, which, aside from being annoying, sets them apart from the non-LEOs of the forum and world.

[dazzleman]

At least your honest in your opinions Psilos.  Though I imagine you'd be outraged by the same comments, with some racial, ethnic or gender group substituted for LEO.

Viewing LEOs as one-dimensional only reinforces the frat boy mentality you compain about. It's a cycle to which you help contribute.

[S204STi]

Just close it then, seriously. If you can't criticize police actions in this forum then forget it. I could go on further, but nevermind. How absurd and biased towards one group.

Just because a few people have absolutely no sense of restraint, or respect, doesn't mean the fun should be ruined for all of us.

[Was a bit hostile at first, edited to tone down]

[TurboDan]

If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all.  As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.

If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having. 

[TurboDan]

With what he sent drinkwater, I think he deserved it more than Nick.

You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here.  Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions.  In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.

[Cookie Monster]

If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all.  As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.

If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having. 

I think what R-inge meant by "fun" is that he wanted the forum to stay open so he could talk to LEO's, not bash them.

[S204STi]

If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all.  As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.

If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having. 

I think you misunderstood me Dan.  By "fun" I mean simply the ability to discuss issues pertaining to Driving and the Law.  I am enraged by the way certain posters treat LEOs on this board (though it isn't in the least surprising).  All I am saying is that I wish people had some restraint so that we all didn't get our toys taken away.  Unfortunately though if we are going to act like preschoolers then perhaps we should be treated as such.

I'm very disappointed by that thread.  It sounds like a few people had a logical, reasonable debate (soup, bing-oh, cougs, byteme, james young, maybe some others) while the rest just sniped at police and generally threw flame-bait around.  I stepped away from these boards for a period of time to make sure I had a good perspective, and I come back to a series of bannings and this crap.  Too bad the mods have to deal with a bunch of children in order to keep this ship sailing...

[Lazerous]

You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here.  Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions.  In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.

I think this is an appropiate "pwned" image:

[Cookie Monster]

I think this is an appropiate "pwned" image:

[S204STi]

Please please please don't hijack this thread, dammit.

[Raza]

I can blame people on both sides on this one but when criticism leads to insults that's a problem.  When people are insulted they feel the need to respond and the cycle starts.  So, at least in my opinion, the blame lies with the posters that entered the discussion with the juvenile bashing, not the response, that's another story. 

Personally, I think there's some serious maturity issues going on with some members here.  Not sure what to do about it yet, but something will be done.

Hey, even the mature insult people.

[Lazerous]

Please please please don't hijack this thread, dammit.

I normally don't but that post really deserved an accompanying "pwned" picture. Now back to the original topic.

This might be one of my more favorite forums on this board and I have learned a good amount from the LEO's that contribute here and other members. I also tend to contribute quite a few posts to this forum and would hate to see it deleted. That being said, I agree with R-inge and Raza in that deleting this forum won't really alleviate the situation and the more appropriate action would be a ban of some sorts.

[Raza]

Banning does, however. 

Well, beat the bullies senseless and the playground's free for everyone. 

That's how I did it as a kid, anyway.

[S204STi]

I normally don't but that post really deserved an accompanying "pwned" picture. Now back to the original topic.

This might be one of my more favorite forums on this board and I have learned a good amount from the LEO's that contribute here and other members. I also tend to contribute quite a few posts to this forum and would hate to see it deleted. That being said, I agree with R-inge and Raza in that deleting this forum won't really alleviate the situation and the more appropriate action would be a ban of some sorts.

If we collectively can't pull our heads out of our collective rectum, then I can't blame Dan for shutting it down altogether.  But really we all could use a dose of Maturity, and hopefully some people disappearing at least for a while will help.

[S204STi]

Oh well, I guess I'll bury myself in PotBS again for a couple of weeks and check back...hopefully the drama will be over by then.

[Lazerous]

Oh well, I guess I'll bury myself in PotBS again for a couple of weeks and check back...hopefully the drama will be over by then.

You're overreacting a bit. There is currently no "drama." Maybe you should just not check this particular forum for a little while. The rest of the board seems fine to me.
What's PotBS anyway?

[Raza]

If we collectively can't pull our heads out of our collective rectum, then I can't blame Dan for shutting it down altogether.  But really we all could use a dose of Maturity, and hopefully some people disappearing at least for a while will help.

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

[Cookie Monster]

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

I don't want to start any arguments but I think the LEO's are being too touchy here. Yes, the bashing was very gratuitous and I don't do it, but I agree with Raza, it just seems that we can't say anything bad about cops because we'll just get flamed and shut down.
Then again I don't know what LEO's go through, but it seems like we really have to watch ourselves in this forum.

[the Teuton]

I agree with Raza.  If the mods limit the freedom of speech, then what's the point of posting?  I don't like a lot of the cops back home because they had nothing to do but try to find an excuse to pick up a speeder, but besides almost giving me an underage here at college, I value what they do in general.

[James Young]

LEOs must not be immune from criticism.

We recruit, train and equip them at public expense to perform a public purpose.  We burden them with extraordinary responsibility and provide extraordinary authority with which to execute that responsibility.   Because of this exalted authority, LEOs should and must be held to a higher standard of behavior than civilians and, no, it doesn?t go away when you put away the badge.  It goes with the territory.

Law enforcement has isolated itself and militarized itself to a point that so demeans the Jeffersonian ideal of a constable as to make it unrecognizable.  Law enforcement has largely brought the criticism on itself. 

I don?t enjoy ?bashing? police but I?ll be damned if I won?t speak up to point out bad behavior and to provide a better way.  The original incident that triggered so much puerile animosity in the forum has also generated a lot of criticism of law enforcement, especially among the very conservative elderly element (even older than me!) right here in Riverside County who saw a wasted federal earmark, heavy-handed police behavior and most especially the seizure/theft of private property.   We cannot let that kind of abuse continue without protest.

[CALL_911]

You don't have any room to be lobbying for others to be punished. You're always in the middle of childish name-calling and juvenile bullshit around here.  Don't think the mods have not had their finger on the ban button next to your user name on several occasions.  In my opinion, we've been too nice at times.

Oh, I know all too well that you wanted to ban me.

[Rupert]

At least your honest in your opinions Psilos.  Though I imagine you'd be outraged by the same comments, with some racial, ethnic or gender group substituted for LEO.

Viewing LEOs as one-dimensional only reinforces the frat boy mentality you compain about. It's a cycle to which you help contribute.

I might argue that LEOs have done things to deserve or provoke those comments, at least in a vague large-scale way, while some ethnic group (or whomever) hasn't. Calling an LEO an idiot is like calling a plumber an idiot: might be true, probably isn't, but it's not the same as using a slur against a Jew. Additionally, and this applies fairly specifically, it's not too hard to pick out a post that promotes the frat boy mentality without offering any more dimension. Or are you saying that LEOs are fratty because the public views them as one-dimensional?

[Rupert]

If the "fun" means insulting a group of forum members, it's not "fun" for all.  As Greg said, when the Driving and the Law forum becomes less of an informational place to ask questions and respectfully debate traffic laws and more of a place to bash those who enforce the laws (it's not as if they CREATED them in the first place anyway), then its purpose has been undermined and it should no longer exist.

If nothing else, if one section of the forum disrupts the forum and some of its members, it's not worth having. 

The police might not create laws, but they seem to show up on the "the law is perfect" side of the debate more often than not. That, and their discretion as to when to enforce certain laws, leads people to think that they might as well have created the laws themselves.

[bing_oh]

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

I don't think this is an issue of limiting freedom to criticize the government. Criticism of the government is a vital freedom within any democracy. Personally, I've tried to take criticims of LE around here as constructively and maturely as possible...I've long said that I don't care if someone disagrees with me, as long as the debate is mature. I did my best in the offending thread to live by that...though I'll freely admit that a few of my comments were less than I expect of myself (I apologive if my human nature occasionally overrides the standards I try ot set for myself as a professional LEO).

That being said, the thread in question went way past criticism. There were attacks that I took very personally, thick skin and all. Despite every individual's freedom to criticize the government, I wholeheartedly agree that the mods have the right to ask that that criticism be mature in nature on a private message board like this one. We LEO's don't ask for anything more than the common courtesy that every poster deserves around here. No matter our profession and what standard we're held to, we're still human beings and deserve the same respect that every human deserves.

[Raza]

I don't think this is an issue of limiting freedom to criticize the government. Criticism of the government is a vital freedom within any democracy. Personally, I've tried to take criticims of LE around here as constructively and maturely as possible...I've long said that I don't care if someone disagrees with me, as long as the debate is mature. I did my best in the offending thread to live by that...though I'll freely admit that a few of my comments were less than I expect of myself (I apologive if my human nature occasionally overrides the standards I try ot set for myself as a professional LEO).

That being said, the thread in question went way past criticism. There were attacks that I took very personally, thick skin and all. Despite every individual's freedom to criticize the government, I wholeheartedly agree that the mods have the right to ask that that criticism be mature in nature on a private message board like this one. We LEO's don't ask for anything more than the common courtesy that every poster deserves around here. No matter our profession and what standard we're held to, we're still human beings and deserve the same respect that every human deserves.

I never defended the thread in question. 

I'm just saying if you want to play hockey and not get hit, don't lace up your skates.

[bing_oh]

The police might not create laws, but they seem to show up on the "the law is perfect" side of the debate more often than not. That, and their discretion as to when to enforce certain laws, leads people to think that they might as well have created the laws themselves.

Never think that LEO's believe that the law is perfect. I can tell you that LEO's are some of the biggest critics of the law and the government as a whole that you'll ever find. The difference between us and your average citizen is, we rarely voice those opinions in a public forum. We tend to bitch amongst ourselves, believing that public criticism by a group like LE is detrimental to society and that the public won't listen to us anyways.

We work within an imperfect system and we know it. But, we're a pretty patriotic bunch and we know that, despite the flaws, we've got a damn good thing compaired to alot of other government around the world. We also hold the belief...even us older, more cynical cops (though we will rarely admit it)...that we can still change things for the better. Mix that with a big dose of blunt realism and you have the average cop attitude.

[Raza]

Never think that LEO's believe that the law is perfect. I can tell you that LEO's are some of the biggest critics of the law and the government as a whole that you'll ever find. The difference between us and your average citizen is, we rarely voice those opinions in a public forum. We tend to bitch amongst ourselves, believing that public criticism by a group like LE is detrimental to society and that the public won't listen to us anyways.

We work within an imperfect system and we know it. But, we're a pretty patriotic bunch and we know that, despite the flaws, we've got a damn good thing compaired to alot of other government around the world. We also hold the belief...even us older, more cynical cops (though we will rarely admit it)...that we can still change things for the better. Mix that with a big dose of blunt realism and you have the average cop attitude.

A critic in private isn't a critic at all.

[Middle_Path]

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

+1 billion