This Forum

[dsred]

A lot of us here have been together on these forums for years and one of the guys at the center of this was with me last week at the NY Auto show and two other times.  So, it's a little different for some of us because we know each other a bit on a personal level if that makes any sense.  On that end, it was a bit of a personal let down for me.

I've had plenty of differences with people here just ask Raza but it hasn't stopped me from liking him.  We are at odds at times but I'm not afraid to bark at him on occasion.  The reason this forum is a little different or has been a little different is it is a bit personal on a lot of levels. 

I hear ya....

[Danish]

With what he sent drinkwater, I think he deserved it more than Nick.

Def. agree

A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.

[Middle_Path]

Catman, I like you and you represent LEO's well. You also seem to be a fair mod. However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride."

-- Bill Hicks. God bless him.

[Catman]

Def. agree

A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.

You're right we told him to ban himself before we did it.   He got fed up and left, end of story.  It should be pretty obvious that mods came late to the problem.

[S204STi]

However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.

This sounds like a cover for over the top posts and personal attacks.  There are real people behind these keyboards.

[Catman]

Catman, I like you and you represent LEO's well. You also seem to be a fair mod. However, the internet should never never never be personal. That's my opinion. The internet is the butt of the joke of humanity. It's all fun and games. Almost how real life should be, but I suppose our philosophies are different.

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question: "Is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride."

-- Bill Hicks. God bless him.

I really don't disagree in principle but there is also the realization that there needs to be some ground rules here, limits that we decided on a long time ago when we created the site.  Above all, mutual respect is a good goal even on the internet.  We're all still people.

[dsred]

  We're all still people.

AHHHH! So is Soylent Green! AHHHHH!

[Catman]

LOL.  Wait a second here, did Middle Path give me a compliment?

[bing_oh]

Bing, sorry I should have stated my position in a clearer manner. A generic "cops suck" (ya ya I know) seems to be taken as a personal affront by some. I don't think anyone meant it to be that way. If they did, they should be treated as the punks they are.

However, it takes a better man to "turn the other cheek". And like it or not, either thru self promotion by the LE community or societal image/perception, people subject their LEO's to a higher standard of behaviour. When it doesn't happen.... well, you've seen the result.

I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.

I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.

[Cookie Monster]

LOL.  Wait a second here, did Middle Path give me a compliment?

[Catman]

I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.

I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.

I have to say Bing_oh, you do a fine job of trying to explain the issues much better than me.  I used to do a decent job of it but I got tired of it a long time ago. 

[TurboDan]

Def. agree

A ceremonial "banning himself" is kinda ludicrous. I'll be frank: If Rohan wasn't a LEO, he wouldn't have gotten the "banning himself" privilege.

Personally, I tend to prefer banning the originator of the argument than the person who gets angry because they were baited.

[TurboDan]

Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters.  It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.

The reason the growth is slow is because we aren't indexed well by search engines, don't do any advertising, and there really aren't many ways for us to be found.

[TurboDan]

I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.

Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot."  Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment.  Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame. 

[Soup DeVille]

Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot."  Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment.  Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame. 

Well, that does though beg the question: who was it that applied for the grant, and who was it that decided what sort of actions that grant would enable?

[dsred]

I'm sorry, dsred, but I think there were some comments made in that thread that were very intentionally personal. I recall someone telling me, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't welcome to post here anymore (you'll notice how well I listened to him). Those kinds of comments don't exactly encourage an open exchange of ideas.

I did my damndest to "turn the other cheek" and continue with a mature debate with people like Soup who were still trying to act like adults. All I got was slapped across the other cheek from the immature hoard. I've got a thick skin and can take alot of abuse but, LEO or not, I'm still only human and can only take so much before I respond in kind.

I know. It gets heated but then most everyone calms down and has "sober second thoughts". But by then it may be too late.

That's why I (try to) take it for what it is.

The Internet. A highly impersonal form of communication. I don't know how old you are (I'm 46) but by your demeanor and intelligence I would expect you to be an individual with, uh, "life experience".

Herein lies the problem with the Internet. Individuals here, from 12 to 80, want to be perceived as "equals" when in fact that is not the case.

In a face to face conversation, you can make judgments on the competence of an individual based upon such factors as age, demaneanor, appearance, inflection of voice, etc. On the Internet, you just can't do that. This cuts two ways:

1) All expect and demand that their opinions be taken with equal weight, when in fact due to a lack of life experience they truly are not.
2) When those who are confronted with the above by those with more life experience, they rebel as they perceive others (as surely this post will be perceived) as condescending. But the fact is that due to a lack of life experience they truly do not know....

Sorry for digressing. Am I making any sense?

[bing_oh]

I have to say Bing_oh, you do a fine job of trying to explain the issues much better than me.  I used to do a decent job of it but I got tired of it a long time ago.

Thanks, Catman. Maybe I just havn't been banging my head against that proverbal wall as long as you have (or I have a thicker skull so the head banging hasn't done as much brain damage ).

[dsred]

Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot."  Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment.  Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame. 

I think you missed the point of the sentence you quoted. You might want to read it again.

[S204STi]

I'd say that there is a long history of issues with street racing, illegal modifications, and so forth in the area.  This is hardly the first time I've read about something like this.  The grant is likely in response to the issues they've had there.

This was in response to Soup, btw.

[Catman]

Yeah, because the cops woke up that day and said, "Hey, let's all stay late and give out tickets and tow cars for hours in a parking lot."  Can't say I've met many cops who would relish that assignment.  Blame the politicians who approved the $500K grant if you want someone to blame. 

There's always the issue of people breaking various laws and being a general nuisance.  If one was to actually look at that story from a a site that is not biased on the side of car enthusiasts they would notice that there were scores of violations related to (engine mods - illegal in CA), speed exhibition, possession of stolen vehicle parts, public drinking, etc.  As long as society feels the need to impose laws upon its people then we should expect law enforcement to perform law enforcement.

People need to have some common sense.  These types of operations are not the first option by any stretch of the imagination.  These types of issues always begin as a small nuisance and complaints and are almost always handled in the least intrusive method.  99% of LEO's prefer the path of least resistance when dealing with public peace issues (i.e. approach the offenders, ask them to knock it off and leave).  Sometimes that's enough and other times you get called back and see the same faces who have basically told you without speaking that they prefer to flaunt opposition to the police.  Someone is put in charge of public peace and it's the police.  If people choose to push back on the police when they are violating the law then the police must act.  Believe me, considering the scale of this operation, it was a looooooooooooooong rode getting there and it started innocuously, it almost always does.  But, in the end, it's always the police that are the bad guys in these situations and no one but them seems to be responsible for anything.

[bing_oh]

I know. It gets heated but then most everyone calms down and has "sober second thoughts". But by then it may be too late.

That's why I (try to) take it for what it is.

The Internet. A highly impersonal form of communication. I don't know how old you are (I'm 46) but by your demeanor and intelligence I would expect you to be an individual with, uh, "life experience".

Herein lies the problem with the Internet. Individuals here, from 12 to 80, want to be perceived as "equals" when in fact that is not the case.

In a face to face conversation, you can make judgments on the competence of an individual based upon such factors as age, demaneanor, appearance, inflection of voice, etc. On the Internet, you just can't do that. This cuts two ways:

1) All expect and demand that their opinions be taken with equal weight, when in fact due to a lack of life experience they truly are not.
2) When those who are confronted with the above by those with more life experience, they rebel as they perceive others (as surely this post will be perceived) as condescending. But the fact is that due to a lack of life experience they truly do not know....

Sorry for digressing. Am I making any sense?

You're making perfect sense. I can understand things being said in the heat of the moment. That's one of the reasons that I didn't jump on Rohan's outburst like some others have (not because I'm a LEO defending another LEO, contrary to popular belief). I strongly suspect that Randy read the thread, got himself worked up, and shotgunned out some comments that were probably later viewed with a bit of regret. Raza got himslef a bit worked up and confrontational early on in that thread too, but we later got into a good mature debate. I didn't hold his early confrontational tone against him either.

I'm 32 and have been a cop for 10 years now. I know that I have a different perception of alot of things because of differences in age, experience, and personal bias. But, I majorly believe in mutual respect and treating people like you'd want to be treated yourself...even here on the impersonal internet. Why others can't apply that very simple rule...something that my parents taught me around the time I learned to walk...I cannot understand.

[Raza]

Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently.  Very addicting.

And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time.  And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.

Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me.  Some may not care...I don't blame them.

Some people deserve to be ridiculed.

[Catman]

[Cookie Monster]

OWNED!
That cat has superior balance skillz.

[Raza]

The reason the growth is slow is because we aren't indexed well by search engines, don't do any advertising, and there really aren't many ways for us to be found.

I've got to say John's issue is probably a part of it.  But now with certain elements no longer on our periodic table, things should be better.

[Raza]

Raza got himslef a bit worked up and confrontational early on in that thread too, but we later got into a good mature debate. I didn't hold his early confrontational tone against him either.

Oh come now, that was just a 4 on the hostility scale from me.

[dazzleman]

Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues.  Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:

Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it.  Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car  impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it.  If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things.  He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place.  However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.

That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.

A good journalist will look beyond the superficialities of the situation you describe and try to present a balanced account.  Few seem to do that.  This is either caused by honest but sloppy and shallow reporting and fact gathering, or deliberate distortion of facts to support a certain agenda.

I have learned over the years to deeply distrust news accounts of events.

[dsred]

But, I majorly believe in mutual respect and treating people like you'd want to be treated yourself...even here on the impersonal internet. Why others can't apply that very simple rule...something that my parents taught me around the time I learned to walk...I cannot understand.

I have the same credo. But when others fail to do so, (and sometimes believe me I have to bite my tongue...errrr...fingers) I try not to lash out. But hey, nobody's perfect! If that happens I have to take it for what it is, and I hope others feel the same.

[dazzleman]

I might argue that LEOs have done things to deserve or provoke those comments, at least in a vague large-scale way, while some ethnic group (or whomever) hasn't. Calling an LEO an idiot is like calling a plumber an idiot: might be true, probably isn't, but it's not the same as using a slur against a Jew. Additionally, and this applies fairly specifically, it's not too hard to pick out a post that promotes the frat boy mentality without offering any more dimension. Or are you saying that LEOs are fratty because the public views them as one-dimensional?

Well, the foundation of racial/ethnic/gender discrimination is that members of the group, in general and/or on a large scale, have done things to deserve or provoke it.  For example, statistics about crime among certain ethnic groups, genders and/or age groups, have been used to exclude them from residence in certain areas and subject them to additional police scrutiny.

Surely, you don't agree with doing that, yet you follow the same thought process with resepct to your attitude toward LEOs.  Your comment that you 'can't see LEOs as anything else' falls right into the same intellectual rut.  Essentially denying an LEO his humanity is far different from saying that every plumber is an idiot, as an example.  I think you can see the difference.

Like many who practice political correctness, you seem to have a blind spot for your own practice of the thought processes that you condemn when used by other people.

[Tave]

I don't want to comment on what happened, because the points have been made, but I'd like to look at this post in a general context:

I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.

My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.

I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.

You're right. This forum will get awfully boring if everyone takes everything to heart.

On the other hand, most of our members saw what happened on the C&D boards when people could say anything they want and get away with it. We came here, not only because we were tired of listening to it, but also because we were tired of getting involved. I know I'm not the only person who acted differently, or wrote differently, in that environment. We came here looking for a fresh start.

We're willing to close a thread every now and then, even at the expense of full "freedom of speech," because if we don't, all conversation will start to suffer. Maybe the thread in question was out of line, maybe not. In the end, I leave it up to the moderators, because I trust them to keep what happened at C&D from happening here. You can't make an omlette...