This Forum

[dazzleman]

There's a difference between criticizing specific actions certain LEOs take and generalized cop-bashing.  I think Dan has objected to the latter but not the former.

I support the moderators and administration taking a hard line to ensure that ALL our members feel welcome here.  Too many people who whine incessantly about their own right have zero regard for those of other people.

I'd rather see a crackdown here than see the who Driving and the Law forum deleted.  But Dan and the moderators are right that we can't allow some members to make others feel unwelcome.  And if we take the 'anythng goes' approach that some members seem to favor (which BTW they'd never favor if they were the ones being attacked), the forum will just turn into a cesspool like many internet forums.

Another thing I'd caution people about is forming definite opinions on anything from one newspaper article.  The quality of journalism is abysmal and it is often severely slanted even to the point of misstating facts.  Have any opinion you want but don't allow yourself to be used as a pawn.

[S204STi]

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

That wasn't my point; criticism and bashing are two different things.  Criticism is something I myself have done (see my thread "Powertrip much?").  But mainly a couple of people need to cool it when it comes to using offensive speech or flamebait.  I've already qouted one of them in this thread, the other was banned, and one of them seems to have been caught in the crossfire.

[S204STi]

You're overreacting a bit. There is currently no "drama." Maybe you should just not check this particular forum for a little while. The rest of the board seems fine to me.
What's PotBS anyway?

Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently.  Very addicting.

And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time.  And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.

Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me.  Some may not care...I don't blame them.

[S204STi]

Meh, that last couple of lines were silly things to say, but the rest of it I meant.

[Byteme]

I don't want to start any arguments but I think the LEO's are being too touchy here. Yes, the bashing was very gratuitous and I don't do it, but I agree with Raza, it just seems that we can't say anything bad about cops because we'll just get flamed and shut down.
Then again I don't know what LEO's go through, but it seems like we really have to watch ourselves in this forum.

I haven't read beyond this post so this may be old stuff by now.  If so, sorry.

I think you guys are missing the point.  LEOs, correct me if I am wrong.

No one is saying you can't discuss, criticize or complain about a cop or what they do or how they do it..  What is being objected to is the childish and chickensh*t way in which some of the posters did it (see my earlier post on this topic). 

If I didn't know better I would swear some of those posts were written by 7th graders.  That could have been an interesting topic but is got sidetracked by inmature posts and immediately went off topic. 

Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters.  It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.

[Lazerous]

Pirates of the Burning Sea, an mmorpg that I got into recently.  Very addicting.

And maybe I am overreacting but that thread about the kid whose parents let her die of diabetic shock rather than give her treatment was discouraging for what I percieved as a lack of civility and a general bashing of anyone with religious beliefs, and this recent thread, convince me that there are too many people who don't know how to express themselves over the internet without taking it to 11 all the time.  And yeah I know I've been guilty of that myself in the past.

Like I said, a few people need to disappear, and it seems like some have already been dealt with, so I will give this place more time and energy in a bit of time and see if I think it's worth it. FWIW this place is losing me.  Some may not care...I don't blame them.

Aah yes, the religious threads. They always end up going the same exact route which is why I do my best to stay out of them lately. So I can't argue with you against that one.

Lately this board does seem to have been on the edge a little bit and I'm not entirely sure why, but I don't think simply leaving a place that you yourself have contributed in its growth is the solution. The administrators and moderators are the ones responsible for keeping this place in check and they seem to be doing their job, but you can't expect immediate results. Patience is key.

[Cookie Monster]

I haven't read beyond this post so this may be old stuff by now.  If so, sorry.

I think you guys are missing the point.  LEOs, correct me if I am wrong.

No one is saying you can't discuss, criticize or complain about a cop or what they do or how they do it..  What is being objected to is the childish and chickensh*t way in which some of the posters did it (see my earlier post on this topic). 

If I didn't know better I would swear some of those posts were written by 7th graders.  That could have been an interesting topic but is got sidetracked by inmature posts and immediately went off topic. 

Ever wonder why membership at Carspin stabilized at about 500 with perhaps 30-40 regular posters.  It could be in part becausee any casual visitor would see that all to frequently topics typically devolve to name calling, off topic discussions, meaningless inmature posts after a couple of pages.

Still, it seems that we have to be much more careful around LEO's on this board than with other members... may be just me though.
And with Trep gone, hopefully the name calling and immature posts will cease too, since he was the source of all that shit.

[Byteme]

And with Trep gone, hopefully the name calling and immature posts will cease too, since he was the source of all that shit.

Trep and Nacar.

[Cookie Monster]

Trep and Nacar.

Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.

[S204STi]

Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.

I can think of a couple of other people who need to shape up or ship out.  (That's not directed at you btw).

[Byteme]

Nick hasn't started any bitchfights other than this one thread.

Perhaps unfairly I was referring to him in reference to silly posts in genenral.

Sometimes I start looking at topics and have to check to see whether I am in the Carspin or the Cat Fancier's website.   

[dsred]

We don't want to support "general" police bashing, either. It doesn't matter if it's personal or not.

What you call "general police bashing" I call legitmate criticism. If that's the stand this website takes, I don't want to be a part of it.

Welcome to the police state. Sheep.

[dsred]

Err... jail?  A rap studio? The Democratic National Convention? 

Thanks for your serious answer to a serious question.

[dsred]

Honest truth is that if we can't justly criticize the police, then it should be shut down. 

That's how I feel anyway.  I was "guilty" of a lot of police bashing back in the day and now as well.  That I wasn't involved in this latest incident is just happenstance. 

There are LEO members here that have changed my overall opinion about the police.  There are police officers who have convinced me that LEOs are people too.  Then there are LEOs who have reinforced my original opinion of the police.  If I can't voice my opinion, I'd cease posting here on my own.

Bingo.

[dsred]

LEOs must not be immune from criticism.

We recruit, train and equip them at public expense to perform a public purpose.  We burden them with extraordinary responsibility and provide extraordinary authority with which to execute that responsibility.   Because of this exalted authority, LEOs should and must be held to a higher standard of behavior than civilians and, no, it doesn’t go away when you put away the badge.  It goes with the territory.

Law enforcement has isolated itself and militarized itself to a point that so demeans the Jeffersonian ideal of a constable as to make it unrecognizable.  Law enforcement has largely brought the criticism on itself. 

I don’t enjoy “bashing” police but I’ll be damned if I won’t speak up to point out bad behavior and to provide a better way.  The original incident that triggered so much puerile animosity in the forum has also generated a lot of criticism of law enforcement, especially among the very conservative elderly element (even older than me!) right here in Riverside County who saw a wasted federal earmark, heavy-handed police behavior and most especially the seizure/theft of private property.   We cannot let that kind of abuse continue without protest.

It can't be stated enough.

[TurboDan]

Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues.  Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:

Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it.  Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car  impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it.  If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things.  He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place.  However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.

That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.

[Catman]

What you call "general police bashing" I call legitmate criticism. If that's the stand this website takes, I don't want to be a part of it.

Welcome to the police state. Sheep.

If you want your account deleted just say the word.  If you don't understand the difference between a civil discussion and "bashing" then we don't need you here. Sorry if you think that's rude but since that's your general demeanor with your posts maybe it will come across more effectively.

[dsred]

If you want your account deleted just say the word.  If you don't understand the difference between a civil discussion and "bashing" then we don't need you here.

It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".

I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?

Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....

I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.

If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...

[Catman]

It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".

I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?

Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....

I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.

If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...

Here we go.  So I'm a police officer so there's a problem?  I've banned many people for bashing and name calling which had nothing to do with "my occupation".  Again, if you don't like it you may leave forthwith.  WHy stay here just to be sour and negative?

[Cookie Monster]

It started as a civil discussion. One started it, got banned. The other, who I consider committed a far more aggregious offense, "banned himself".

I understand the difference between legit criticism and bashing. Do you? Can you, given your occupation?

Feel free to think deeply before you give yourself an honest answer. Then, consider that maybe you shouldn't be a mod....

I for one refuse to walk around on eggshells because a few cops might be personally offended when others call out the dumb actions of a totally separate group of cops. Thin blue line indeed.

If that is truely a "banning offense" then everything I've said about this website is bang on...

Catman is pretty much the coolest and most laid back LEO here...
It's just the other people (rohan) that make it clear that they're "better" than you because they're a LEO, or at least that's the feeling I get.

[NomisR]

Dave, interesting point on how the media covers police issues.  Working at a newspaper, here's what I can tell you about it:

Say this happened around here and I were to write a story on it.  Well, it's easy to find someone who had their car  impounded and they'll be just giddy to bitch about it.  If I called up the police chief, however, he's not really allowed to give personal opinions on things.  He will provide the data, tell me the details of the operation and how it was funded, and any complaints or reasons why it took place.  However, he's not going to cheerlead and give personal opinions to counter those of the guy who had his car taken away on a tow truck.

That's a big reason why these news stories tend to focus on the person who had the car towed away - because he's the only one giving a strong opinion.

Here's a question that's not really related to the thread but related what you said.

So can't the media just post facts and information on both sides without giving too much of an opinion?  Because more and more, it feels like the news stories are becoming more of an opinion piece with an agenda than actual facts or news.  And most of the time, no follow up stories either. 

[bing_oh]

It started as a civil discussion.

If that's what you consider a "civil discussion," I'd hate to see what you'd consider a flame-fest!

In the first page alone, we have...

agencies who waste public resources hassling people instead of cracking down on real crime can suck my balls.

FUCK POLICE FUCK POLICE FUCK

It seems like as long as the asshole police claims its purpose is street racing, they can do whatever the fuck they want, including confiscating your car and destroying it.

Cops can be so full of fail sometimes.

Yes, truly the pinnacle of mature and civil discussion, there...

[Catman]

Here's a question that's not really related to the thread but related what you said.

So can't the media just post facts and information on both sides without giving too much of an opinion?  Because more and more, it feels like the news stories are becoming more of an opinion piece with an agenda than actual facts or news.  And most of the time, no follow up stories either. 

I was sued in federal court along with a bunch of others. I can tell you this, it is very frustrated when you are slandered with lies in the newspaper every other day and never get the opportunity to defend oneself.  No, we are not afforded the same rights as the average citizen.  We're ordered to "keep quiet".  So people read the newspaper and all they read is the BS from these people day after day without any personal response from the accused.  The only help we got was from the anonymous posters who knew these douchebags personally.  Anyone else just piled on with the "cops are corrupt", etc.  If people hear or read enough of something they often believe it.  As an LEO you try to do the right thing and often get shit on for your effort.  Had I known the reality of the job I probably would have avoided it.

We actually had one of the local "news investigator teams" go after us.  They went to talk to the chief and were told that he cannot comment on an ongoing case, etc.  So what did they do?  The whole piece was devoted to the "victims", their lies and crocodile tears.  Of course they gave us air time too, filming officers going home for lunch, camping outside their houses and following them around town.  It was a real low point in my career.  I lost a lot of faith in the public, the court system and my opinion of the media is even lower than it was.  This case involved an officer getting kicked repeatedly in the head which resulted in a concussion that put him out of work for months.

[dsred]

If that's what you consider a "civil discussion," I'd hate to see what you'd consider a flame-fest!

In the first page alone, we have...

Yes, truly the pinnacle of mature and civil discussion, there...

Don't see any personal attacks there...

PS- What, no rohan quotes....?

[dsred]

Here we go.  So I'm a police officer so there's a problem?  I've banned many people for bashing and name calling which had nothing to do with "my occupation".  Again, if you don't like it you may leave forthwith.  WHy stay here just to be sour and negative?

I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.

My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.

I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.

[dsred]

I was sued in federal court along with a bunch of others. I can tell you this, it is very frustrated when you are slandered with lies in the newspaper every other day and never get the opportunity to defend oneself.  No, we are not afforded the same rights as the average citizen.  We're ordered to "keep quiet".  So people read the newspaper and all they read is the BS from these people day after day without any personal response from the accused.  The only help we got was from the anonymous posters who knew these douchebags personally.  Anyone else just piled on with the "cops are corrupt", etc.  If people hear or read enough of something they often believe it.  As an LEO you try to do the right thing and often get shit on for your effort.  Had I known the reality of the job I probably would have avoided it.

We actually had one of the local "news investigator teams" go after us.  They went to talk to the chief and were told that he cannot comment on an ongoing case, etc.  So what did they do?  The whole piece was devoted to the "victims", their lies and crocodile tears.  Of course they gave us air time too, filming officers going home for lunch, camping outside their houses and following them around town.  It was a real low point in my career.  I lost a lot of faith in the public, the court system and my opinion of the media is even lower than it was.  This case involved an officer getting kicked repeatedly in the head which resulted in a concussion that put him out of work for months.

I have gone thru the same thing. I am (obviously) not a LEO but I am a government employee and I feel your pain. It's not a good feeling being persecuted and second guessed by the media, taxpayers, or anyone else who feels the need to pile on.

That said, we choose a life serving the public and taking a alot of shit is part of the territory. This is an internet forum, and really, compared to "real life", nothinjg said on here can hurt anyone, really. That's why I'm surprised at the reactions I guess.

[bing_oh]

Don't see any personal attacks there...

PS- What, no rohan quotes....?

Didn't say anything about personal attacks, did I? You said the discussion started out civilly. I gave you a series of less-than-civil quotes from the beginning of the discussion. Rohan didn't enter the discussion until, what, page 4? That was well after the whole thread had spiraled out of control (not that it was ever really under control).

[Catman]

I don't really care about "name calling". I have stated as much in Hounddog's Thread. Honestly, these are just words. ALL should have thicker skins.

My "problem" is with the perception of what "police bashing" actually is, and how it is seemingly enforced here.

I've come to like it here as the discussions are "mature" and relevant most of the time. But if they digress a bit, who cares? Like I said, this is an internet forum, and anyone who takes ANYTHING said here to heart in an obviously negative way has SERIOUS issues in other areas of their lives.

A lot of us here have been together on these forums for years and one of the guys at the center of this was with me last week at the NY Auto show and two other times.  So, it's a little different for some of us because we know each other a bit on a personal level if that makes any sense.  On that end, it was a bit of a personal let down for me.

I've had plenty of differences with people here just ask Raza but it hasn't stopped me from liking him.  We are at odds at times but I'm not afraid to bark at him on occasion.  The reason this forum is a little different or has been a little different is it is a bit personal on a lot of levels. 

[J86]

Wait, so I guess this isn't the right thread to post a discussion analyzing NWA lyrics.....?

[dsred]

Didn't say anything about personal attacks, did I? You said the discussion started out civilly. I gave you a series of less-than-civil quotes from the beginning of the discussion. Rohan didn't enter the discussion until, what, page 4? That was well after the whole thread had spiraled out of control (not that it was ever really under control).

Bing, sorry I should have stated my position in a clearer manner. A generic "cops suck" (ya ya I know) seems to be taken as a personal affront by some. I don't think anyone meant it to be that way. If they did, they should be treated as the punks they are.

However, it takes a better man to "turn the other cheek". And like it or not, either thru self promotion by the LE community or societal image/perception, people subject their LEO's to a higher standard of behaviour. When it doesn't happen.... well, you've seen the result.