Road and Track takes a beating

[ArchBishop]

http://forums.roadandtrack.com/cars/board/message?board.id=Reader&thread.id=138

The GT-R Vs ZO6/997 Turbo piece has cause quite a stir. If you don't know, R&T's Editors regularly post in the forums, and some people have gone as far as to call them blatant lairs. Crazy.


The Corvette is a shit car anyhow.

[SVT666]

I don't agree.  I just finished reading the entire 10 pages and Shaun Bailey offered up a re-match with a Pro Driver of Rhoades choice and the guy won't respond.  To me the editors are winning this argument.

[JYODER240]

We should get some of those editors to come post here.

[NomisR]

Now, this is real magazine racing and online pissing contest.

[Tave]

Man I can't believe I read the whole thing last night; it made me sleep in and miss a class this morning.

Some choice excerpts:




People can't seem to accept things. I don't know where to begin in regards to everyone calling "foul" with these test results. Why is it so hard to accept, and why is it that the GT-R is the only car that people are having a problem with?
Jason_Rhoades, Your long-winded responses have only accomplished wasting peoples time in reading them. While being well-articulated...they are pointless. You are calling bluff to a royal straight flush...so you lose no matter what.
Please!!! R&T, you have the pull and power to de-rail this ridiculous denial train that is carrying so few passengers. Although, more and more reasons/excuses seem to pop-up after every defeat...I don't see how this will end. The first arguments were about "same day/same driver", and now that has turned into (the topic of this thread) "Biased test drivers." When will it end? We are now being thrown back into the days of the R32. Are there going to be restrictions put on the R35 to make things "even?" Even in stock form?
I just don't understand how people can so vehemently deny the existence of something punching them right in the face over and over. Are you here? Are you living in some other dimension that doesn't allow the words "defeat" to be tied to your brand and "victory" to the GT-R? If the GT-R were to come in last with these tests, I would be disappointed...but I would accept it. I love the GT-R, what it stands for, where comes from, the passion put into its creation and the accomplisments it has already achieved, but I don't think it can't be beaten. I'm just waiting for that day to come. 
To make things "even", all the excuses that have come-up with every defeat need to be taken into consideration and applied to another test comparison. The only thing that CANNOT happen is altering of stock form. Simple as that. So, someone from each manufacturer needs to provide a test driver for each car. I don't care who it is. Let Millen drive the GT-R since apparently he is "losing his touch" (yeah...ok), Jan can pilot the Z06 and some freakishly fast Porsche driver pilot the 997TT. Then, have them all switch cars until each person has gotten behind the wheel of each one. The results of that test would be very enlightening. It would be the ultimate "Battle of the brands" and think Porsche, GM and Nissan should foot the bill. They're defending thier honor, so they shouldn't have a problem with it.
You've got to hand it to Nissan. They have definitely stirred-up some controversy in the automotive world. 






Arch5, I think you've completely missed JRho's point. Mr. Rhoades now possesses something on the order of 3 or 4 SCCA national championships. He has spent a lot of time at Buttonwillow and holds some class records there. Anything else he can contribute or you can google him if you like.
He takes issue with the time differential. He has enough racing cred and lap records that it should at least give one pause. I'm nowhere near the level of driver he is, but I work with a lot of racers and lap times at local SoCal tracks is one of the metrics we use to assess performance. Millen's times are, in many cases, not at the level one would expect (I've already pointed them out along with comparative laps). This is not to denigrate Mr. Millen. He has a fabulous history of performing at a very high level in many venues. He is also, by all accounts, a very nice guy (I've only met him once, briefly at an event, not enough to comment on this from my own experience). But past performance does not guarantee future returns, or so they say. This is not an insult, just a comment on relative lap times.









I kinda got lost in his point because it was so long. I still don't think it is valid. What is he trying to say? Millen is inconsistent? Millen used hyperdrive in the GT-R? He could do better than Millen? If it's the latter, then I would also expect the GT-R's time to come down as well. That would only be logical. If "Mr. Rhoades" can push a car harder than Millen (without kissing a wall), then you must also entertain the fact that ALL THREE cars have room for improvement in "Mr. Rhoades" hands. Right? Right!
C&D ran a 2:01 around the same track in the Z06. That's ~1 sec faster...right? Ok...well, that is still a solid 4 secs slower than what the GT-R did in Millen's hands. Where is the confusion? Does this mean that Millen could've actually ran the course faster...or slower in the GT-R? Does this mean that Millen should've ran the Z06 faster than he did? Should Millen have set a new record on the track with the Z06 since this was a comparison against the GT-R? I'm a bit lost in the justification that people are trying to come-up with in order to discount that Nissan made an incredibly competitive machine that is going to be available GLOBALLY. Finally...after 40+ years...the GT-R will be state-side and compete in global markets.

















Msquared,
You are obviously a stubborn idiot who cannot accept that you can be wrong, so its back to the basics for you: Show us the lap time of a bone stock Z06 doing Buttonwillow #13 that is even close to 1.58.00 (still well short of what the GT-R did) or STFU about it.
Your constant parroting of "It just can't be, it just can't be" does not change the fact the the GT-R has been setting faster lap times than both the 997 Porsche's and the Z06 at every track they are tested on. Somehow these facts continue to elude you, I guess the fantasy in your mind is more overpowering than the overwhelming evidence. Looks like pigs can fly afterall, and the fact that you didn't get the memo on that is just too bad. Welcome to the real world lamer, get to know and like the tail view of the new GT-R because its going to be seen often by the disbelievers like yourself on tracks everywhere. 




As for showing you the times of other Z06s on the same track, C&D has already shown you that it can go faster. But you can't accept that Millen went so slow in the Z06 that magazine writers beat him by a second on the same track. You keep saying those results aren't valid. So no track results I show you will satisfy you. You have experienced, highly successful race drivers telling you this R&T test is invalid, you have physics examples thrust right in front of your face, you have R&T's own editor saying that the test wasn't "at the limits," you have R&T's own skidpad results contradicting the track times, you have the test driver already trying to make a dime off the car he tested. You have a veritable mountain of evidence that the GT-R is clearly not really 5 seconds faster on this course. Yet you keep your head buried in the sand, shouting in protest. You and Burstbubble and others have demonstrated that you have no clue how a car fundamentally works: if you don't understand lateral weight transfer, which is very very simple, then you don't know anything. You've also demonstrated that you don't even know how the GT-R works: I had to show you all that ATTESA, which you fan bois toss around like it's some incredible breakthrough, doesn't even actively bias torque laterally (even though at least one other car in production already does - wanna try to guess which one?). So your ignorance is obvious. So is your unwillingness to accept anything anyone else has to say. Road and Track, here are the products of your misleading journalism. You should be proud of yourselves.




Msquared,
I never said Millen drove any of the cars to their limits, I said the opposite, but your incredible (as in NOT credible) mind seems to change the facts. If you cannot even properly quote me then how can you be expected to come to terms with all the data staring you in the face? I am willing to accept that the Z06 went slower with Millen than it did with C&D, but you know what? Who cares?????? Its still slower than the GT-R, but yes, I realize that you are too freakin stupid to figure that out. I mean, how can any of us expect you to understand that one car stops the clocks with a 1:56.90 and the other does at 2.01.00 (granting you the faster of the two times).
So now we have all agreed to whittle the Z06 time down to 4 seconds slower. Since you are incredibly moronic above the norm of most imbeciles, let's just give the Z06 another free second off at no charge. WoW it now has a 2.00.00 lap, which is three seconds slower. Hey, newsflash ya moron, that is STILL an ass whipping! Just in case you can pull out the miracle lap in the Z06, we will grant it another second off. I know you can't do math well because you are the most ignorant guy I have ever met, so I will inform you that IT STILL LOSES. Since those facts would be grasped by the average monkey by now but will obviously continue to elude you, we will miraculously give the Z06 ANOTHER second off. Holy crap, it STILL LOSES.
Which part do you not understand? Are you only crying because the Z06 time was 1 second slower than THE BEST time anyone has been able to post for it, or because you are having difficulty understanding why every timer that times the GT-R must somehow be off????
By all means, please post a stock Z06 time that beats ANY of the times that the R35 GT-R has managed at ANY of the tracks it has been run on so far, because I haven't seen one yet. The Z06 has been slower on EVERY track it has run in common with the GT-R. The trend continued at Buttonwillow, sorry that you lack the ability to comprehend the results.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I read the first few pages a week ago(or whenver this started).

Stopped reading because it was pretty obvious it was your typical "gtr can't be faster than *insert my favorite car here"

[ArchBishop]

What is funny is no one has yet to post a Corvette Time that can get Near the GT-R. It really is that fast...

[FordSVT]

I'm curious to see how the ZR-1 will fare. I don't know if 600+ horsepower is enough to overcome it's chassis deficiencies, but I would be more than happy to volunteer to find out!

The GT-R is the new kid on the block, and he's come out swinging. However, the 997 and the C6 are both on platforms that began development no less than five years ago, and you can bet that both Chevrolet and Porsche will have the GT-R in the back of their heads when they create the C7 and 998. Nissan isn't building enough GT-Rs to eat into either vehicle's sales, but it will be a matter of pride for them I think to not take this assault laying down.

Sports cars are like pickup trucks: there aren't that many in a price class to chose from, and the "best" one is usually the newest to come out. So every year or two, a new vehicle comes out that is "better" than the others, and everyone "Ohhhs and ahhhs" about it for a year or so, and then something else shiny and new comes along that grabs everyone's attention. Barring a nuclear holocaust, the GT-R will not be the last sports/GT car to be developed, nor will it forever go down in history as the fastest car a human being has ever created for less than 100 grand.

[CJ]

I'm curious to see how the ZR-1 will fare. I don't know if 600+ horsepower is enough to overcome it's chassis deficiencies, but I would be more than happy to volunteer to find out!

The ZR-1 won't be able to put the power down until 2nd or 3rd gear.  Plain and simple.

[S204STi]

I don't agree.  I just finished reading the entire 10 pages and Shaun Bailey offered up a re-match with a Pro Driver of Rhoades choice and the guy won't respond.  To me the editors are winning this argument.

After page one Shawn Bailey pretty much answered all of the potential challenges, but people continue on apparently.  I didn't read the whole thread, but it sounds like crap so I won't bother.

[Cookie Monster]

The ZR-1 won't be able to put the power down until 2nd or 3rd gear.  Plain and simple.

It's called short shifting.

[the Teuton]

The ZR-1 won't be able to put the power down until 2nd or 3rd gear.  Plain and simple.

AWD, a computer-operated adaptive transmission, active yaw control, and a bunch of other computers certainly have their advantages, don't they?

[Cookie Monster]

AWD, a computer-operated adaptive transmission, active yaw control, and a bunch of other computers certainly have their advantages, don't they?

Yes, adding weight.

[Soup DeVille]

It's called short shifting.

Umm, no, not really.

[the Teuton]

Yes, adding weight.

What was that I heard?  Did you say eliminating wheelspin?

[Raza]

What was that I heard?  Did you say eliminating wheelspin?

The 1993 2.5RS still handles better than the GT-R.

[the Teuton]

The 1993 2.5RS still handles better than the GT-R.

Did they make a 1993 RS?   

[S204STi]

No...

They did have the STi for the first time that year though.

[Raza]

Did they make a 1993 RS?   

How should I know?

[Cookie Monster]

Umm, no, not really.

Oh darn, well, I there goes my chance of sounding smart.

Maybe I should've added a smiley to that post...

[ArchBishop]

SVT, I'd have to disagree. With the new V spec coming out, and the media dominance of the likes I have never seen before, I'd say this car will go down in history.

Infact, the GT-R has completely blunted what I think, and how I feel about cars. In short, I'm less interested.

I remember reading a Motortrend article about the C6 ZO6 when it first came out. I don't know what it said (or if it was something I ate) but I began to get a nervous and uncomfortable feeling. The impression I got was the ZO6 was so good, that normal people like us would NEVER be able to obtain 10/10's driving. The car exceeded the driver, and to me, it seems like that would somehow make the car have less soul, be less involved, and be...boring.

The GT-R has hit the point of were a car is almost perfect, and now it is blunting my senses towards other cars in general. When I normally used to be in awe over M3's and 997's, I just can't seem to revive that magic anymore. I think I'm actually going to move on to other hobbies...(which I don't have)

[Sigma Projects]

meh, I don't have to read anything, lol. The GT-R is already legendary, it's just not been available here so it's news to most americans. In japan and europe it's a crazy car with huge followings. If the GT-R beats other cars day in day out then it's legit, i don't feel like reading virtual pooh flinging, lol.

ArchBishop: If mags make you loose your liking for cars, then stop reading them! It's not suppose to do that to you, lol. A faster car is a faster car, it should dull your senses, it should only heighten it. All mags are going to explode with massive oral diarrhea so that they can fill the pages of their mag and make people think what they want you to think. I used to get a lot of C/D but got tired of reading inflated assessments of how a car felt. Like I don't watch Top Gear thinking "oh they will fill me with valuable information" I watch it because they are funny. They have to make money by supporting their sponsors.

[cawimmer430]

I need to read this stuff tonight. Looks like fun. 

[sportyaccordy]

SVT, I'd have to disagree. With the new V spec coming out, and the media dominance of the likes I have never seen before, I'd say this car will go down in history.

Infact, the GT-R has completely blunted what I think, and how I feel about cars. In short, I'm less interested.

I remember reading a Motortrend article about the C6 ZO6 when it first came out. I don't know what it said (or if it was something I ate) but I began to get a nervous and uncomfortable feeling. The impression I got was the ZO6 was so good, that normal people like us would NEVER be able to obtain 10/10's driving. The car exceeded the driver, and to me, it seems like that would somehow make the car have less soul, be less involved, and be...boring.

The GT-R has hit the point of were a car is almost perfect, and now it is blunting my senses towards other cars in general. When I normally used to be in awe over M3's and 997's, I just can't seem to revive that magic anymore. I think I'm actually going to move on to other hobbies...(which I don't have)

That is ridiculous. 999 out of the 1000 Carspin posters will never even get to drive a GT-R. I am still looking forward to hopefully putting down 200whp in my Maxima one day.

Reading about cars in magazines != driving them in real life. Hell, seeing videos of cars on YouTube != reading about them in magazines. The GT-R sounds great in articles, but quite frankly it is ugly in appearance and has a less exciting engine sound than my Maxima, for Christ's sake. Maybe I am shallow but those are big things for me, and hopefully things that the V-spec will rectify.

[FordSVT]

SVT, I'd have to disagree. With the new V spec coming out, and the media dominance of the likes I have never seen before, I'd say this car will go down in history.

In fact, the GT-R has completely blunted what I think, and how I feel about cars. In short, I'm less interested.

I can't really argue with a person who has little passion for vehicles. I'm no old timer, but I've been following this industry my entire life, and I've seen cars come and go. There will always be something faster, or cheaper. The only thing this means is that we'll see faster cars than the GT-R in this price range within the next few years, and we'll see cars approaching the GT-R's performance for a bit less money. I wouldn't be surprised if the base C7 will be a 450 hp car with an equal power to weight ratio as the Nissan. The next EVO will probably have 350 hp and a 3100 pound curb weight for $30,000.

I've heard lots of praise for the Nissan, but you're the very first person I've heard call it a perfect car that will never be equalled that simultaneously managed to diminish their interest in the car industry. Sorry for being blunt, but it's really short sighted. Someone else can come along with a 600 hp awd car that has all sorts of fancy computers and beat the pants off of the Nissan, it's not like they broke the laws of physics.

[JYODER240]

I am I the only one who would take a Boxster S over a GTR any day of the week?

[Rich]

I am I the only one who would take a Boxster S Miata over a GTR any day of the week?

nope

[nickdrinkwater]

Title should read 911 Turbo and Z06 take a beating.

[ArchBishop]

nope

I hope so.

[Cookie Monster]

I am I the only one who would take a Boxster S over a GTR any day of the week?

Make it a Cayman S and yes I would.