Transmission choice for the daily grind

[Cookie Monster]

More Trep BS, I have put in 30,000 miles on MTs in 2 years, I can't drive a stick perfectly and I suspect many of you who have driven far more would say the same.

Remember, Trep can heel n' toe.

I don't think I'll ever be able to heel and toe.

[The Pirate]

Remember, Trep can heel n' toe.

I don't think I'll ever be able to heel and toe.

You just have to practice it, that's all.  Once you get a car with a manual, you'll be able to devote some real time to it, and you'll get quite proficient.

I'm no professional, but I'm decently good at it.  I just kept doing it over and over.


Edit:  And the pedals on my Proteg? are super close together.  I can do a modified heel-and-toe as well; basically blipping the gas with the right edge of my foot while the ball of my foot is still mostly centered (though a bit to the right) on the brake.

[Cookie Monster]

You just have to practice it, that's all.  Once you get a car with a manual, you'll be able to devote some real time to it, and you'll get quite proficient.

I'm no professional, but I'm decently good at it.  I just kept doing it over and over.


Edit:  And the pedals on my Proteg? are super close together.  I can do a modified heel-and-toe as well; basically blipping the gas with the right edge of my foot while the ball of my foot is still mostly centered (though a bit to the right) on the brake.

I can't even twist my foot like that.
I suppose my wide feet can hit both pedals at once though.

[nickdrinkwater]

Nick, I'm just trying to have a conversation. I've never understood how the action of moving your left leg occasionally is what makes the difference in being bored or not while driving. I've seen it as a reason a few times and I'd like to know what it is about the rest of driving that bores you. I'm serious.

Sorry Chris.  Your post just came across as patronising a bit, that's all.  We all know you have a lot of experience with cars, and I respect that (I'd had a long day).  If you genuinely wanted to understand why I find it so much better to drive a manual: it just makes me feel a lot more involved with the car.  I can decide when to shift depending on the way I'm driving, and I like to see how quickly and smoothly I can change gear (continuous improvement if you like).  On a long stretch of road accelerating from 30-60 mph (takes a while in my car!), with auto you can test the car's abilities whereas with manual you are testing your own skills too.

[Rich]

I've commuted in heavy traffic in both, and a manual is fine with a light clutch. But, there's little advantage to it. For only rush hour traffic, a good automatic is a better choice.

Do you enjoy driving a stick?

[ifcar]

Do you enjoy driving a stick?

Sure, if traffic is moving enough to get above second gear. Which isn't frequent in my commute.

[Rich]

Sure, if traffic is moving enough to get above second gear. Which isn't frequent in my commute.

That's unfortunate about your commute.  It's nice that you like driving a stick though.

I figured you were happy plugging away at exactly the speed limit in and automatic barge 

[ifcar]

That's unfortunate about your commute.  It's nice that you like driving a stick though.

I figured you were happy plugging away at exactly the speed limit in and automatic barge 

I wish I could be at the speed limit. (But of course, if I were, it wouldn't matter whether I was in a stick or automatic.)

[ChrisV]

Keeps your mind occupied, as well as active.

So, I'm curious, and being serious... Nothing else about driving keeps your mind occupied? The only way to keep your mind occupied and active, and to pay attention to what's going on around you, is to occasionally move your left foot?

I mean, I like a good manual trans, and have a preference for good manual trans cars, but Jesus... I certainly don't get bored driving the 7 series, as there are, well, a few dozen components to driving, and selecting a gear is but one of them. I don't use some occasional movement IN the car to pay attention to what's going on AROUND the car. Even when I'm driving a manual car, occasionally shifting doesn't make me pay attention to the outside world. In fact, it's entirely the opposite: paying attention to the outside world is what makes me occasionally have to shift. I simply can't fathom anyone even halfway decent at driving that has to use an occasional shift to force them to pay attention to what's going on around them, and is what determines car placement, steering angle, braking, how close they are to other cars, etc. Paying attention is FIRST. Every action of driving follows from that. For example, placement on the apex of a corner comes from knowing where you ARE on the road and where you want to be, and then you work the controls to make that happen. Whatever those controls are, be they just the throttle, brake, and teering wheel, as in my 7 series or a fast racing indoor kart, be they an SMG with paddle shifters where you add choosing the gear with your fingers to the mix of controls, be they the very nice shifter in an S2000 that you barely flick with your wrist while working the clutch, or be they the 3 on the tree column shifter in my old Falcon that requires a large flourish of your arm up and down to move the LONG shifter up by the steering wheel while working a very unfeeling clutch. Every machine is different and you work the controls at hand to make that machine do what it is you want it to do, to place it where you need to be, to follow the road, flow with traffic, etc.

If, out of all the things you do in a machine to place it properly on the road, you need to occasionally move your left leg in order to not get bored or in order to force yourself to pay attention, then I can only surmise that you're a really crappy driver and should probably not be behind the wheel.

This is completely separate from preferring a good manual transmission. It's completely separate from liking the feel of a properly adjusted, light clutch and a short throw shifter that only requires a flick of the wrist to change gears. Prefering to be able to have the opportunity to make a perfectly executed heel and toe downshift entering a tight right hander so you're in the right gear to accellerate out, is an EXCELLENT reason to want a manual trans car. Even if you never get to use that ability in the daily commute.

But to say that you'd get bored driving without it or especially that you need that action in order to pay attention and keep aware of what's going on around you? That's just ridiculous and speaks to a really weak mind that really shouldn't be piloting a car, and is on the ragged edge of being able to do so safely (god forbid you get on a straight stretch or an expressway where you're no longer constantly shifting and you can no longer pay attention to what's going on around you...). If you're going to use that as an excuse, if everything else you do while driving bores you or can't keep your attention focused, then you really ought to examine why you're driving anywhere in the first place.

[SVT666]

Personally, I just prefer a manual transmission.  It doesn't matter why, I just do.  If I was commuting in heavy slow moving traffic I would shoot myself, but as an alternative I would drive an automatic.  Where I live has a lot of steep roads and I don't even have to touch the gas all the way down the hill to my office and a manual allows me to hold a gear all the way down, which is something you can't do in most "new" automatics that only let you chose 1,2, and D.  Where are the other 2 or 3 gears?  I like the interaction I have with the car, but most of all I just enjoy it more.  Why?  I don't know, I just do.  That's all that matters.

[ChrisV]

Sorry Chris.  Your post just came across as patronising a bit, that's all.  We all know you have a lot of experience with cars, and I respect that (I'd had a long day).

'sallright.

If you genuinely wanted to understand why I find it so much better to drive a manual: it just makes me feel a lot more involved with the car.  I can decide when to shift depending on the way I'm driving, and I like to see how quickly and smoothly I can change gear (continuous improvement if you like).  On a long stretch of road accelerating from 30-60 mph (takes a while in my car!), with auto you can test the car's abilities whereas with manual you are testing your own skills too.

Fair enough. All good reasons, though I'd really question how much more involvement you really have with the machine. It's more of a different involvement, from my experience. You still have to learn the machine and use it's abilities to do what you want to do. From a commute standpoint, it's really just to get you from home to work safely, flow with traffic, etc.

From a performance standpoint, there are various goals.

If you're drag racing, you are maximizing the machine's longitudinal accelleration. That takes more work in a Fiesta than in an M5, for example. And since no matter what you do in a stock Fiesta, it won't be as fast as an M5, the maximizing of performance is a relative thing. If you catch my drift. So the way you drive it will be different, by necessity.


Road racing (and by extention, sporty driving on backroads) is essentially maximizing lateral accelleration to minimize the amount of time you spend dealing with longitudinal accelleration. Your goal is to perfectly place the car through a corner to minimize braking entering the corner and maximizing speed through and out of the corner. You have a LOT of controls involved in this procesws, most important is steering. All placement on the road is based around what you do with the wheel. And, like the accelleration example above, what you do to maximise these forces is entirely up to the car you're in. A small, light car with a small, low power engine is going to require different control inputs than a heavier, or more powerful car, or one with better tires, suspension, etc. And as for controls, even the shifting is different between variouos cars. Some need to be shifted a lot, some have a well of torque at hand and don't need to be shifted at all. Some have nice, fast action, short throw shifters, and some have long throw shifters that are sloppy. Some have gated shifters that require smooth, deliberate movements. Just saying you prefer manuals doesn't narrow down which of the dozens of ways that a shifter can work. Some are absolute rubbish. But a good driver uses what's at hand to maximise the ultimate performance of the car, which is really where the car is on the road at any given time. When you have an automatic car, that skill is in utilizing what the CAR is doing to perfect where the car IS. You are still in control and it still takes a lot of skill to maximize the machine's potential. Trust me, I'm just as involved in making sure the 740 does exactly what I want it to do when drving in the twisties as I was with, say, the Fiat. There are a lot of things to pay attention to, and when it comes to gear selection, it's simply a different set of things to pay attention to. You may or may not be actually selecting the gear, but your actions: steering, braking, accelleration, still determine exactly what the car is doing at any given moment. And, like with manuals, some automatics are rubbish. Some of them hunt and peck around and can't settle on a gear, some are sloppy and take a long time to slide between gears. But, just like adjusting to different shifters and different clutch feelings, your skill as a driver still takes what's at hand and maximises the abilities of the machine to ultimately place the machine on the road where you want it, at the best speed it can be at (or whatever given lower speed you're comfortable at or find enjoyable. Like driving a 35mph twisty road at 55, and have fun with the G forces and carrying speed through the tighter corners).

That's why it's fun to be in cars like my 7 series, and make it do things around corners that it's mass says it shouldn't do. To feel the car shrink around you to tackle the twisties, carrying speed, accellerating out of corners, and braking hard into the tighter ones... or to be in cars like my V8 RX7 that pulled 11 second quarter miles, and pulled well over 1 G laterally. Its limits were so high that on the street you simply couldn't explore them. But the fact that you never had to slow for 99% of corners while driving somewhere close to the speed limit was fun. Boring? Not even slightly, and it took skill to use, even if that skill didn't happen to include occasionally pushing a clutch pedal.

The skill that you learn is in making a machine do your bidding. ANY machine. And testing THOSE skills and abilities requires experiencing a wider array of types of machines.

[NomisR]

Don't tell me you don't get bored going in a straight line for miles on end, Chris.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that shifting makes things "exciting" is ridiculous, but driving straight for many miles at constant speed, usually the speed limit, is mind numbing and boring. 

[ChrisV]

Don't tell me you don't get bored going in a straight line for miles on end, Chris.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that shifting makes things "exciting" is ridiculous, but driving straight for many miles at constant speed, usually the speed limit, is mind numbing and boring. 

And my question is, what about a manual trans would be any different in a straight line for miles on end? You're still not shifting. But you're not steering or accellerating or braking, either. So what about having a manual trans in that situation would make it not boring to you?


And yet, when I drove across the US from Seattle to Baltimore, I had 8 hour stretches where all I did was drive basically straight at between 65-75mph. I was in my manual trans Contour SVT Was the fact that it was a manual trans change anything? That's the point.

And no, there was still stuff to look at. But, I've driven for 8 hours at NIGHT on the interstate. That's hard 'cause there isn't anything to look at. And then you're at a constant speed, barely steering, no braking, no accelleration and nothing to look at. And yes, you have to question why you're on the road in the first place.

But those particular scenarios are actually quite rare. How often do you make cross country trips on straight roads with nothing to see? My regular 6 hour trips to Connecticut are not boring, regardless of the vehicle I'm in. And I've done that trip with manuals and automatics many times. And if you're going to get bored, or more importantly, according to 2o6, you can't pay attention that easily on a short interstate trip like that then yes, I have to say you probably shouldn't be driving.

[FoMoJo]

You just have to practice it, that's all.  Once you get a car with a manual, you'll be able to devote some real time to it, and you'll get quite proficient.

I'm no professional, but I'm decently good at it.  I just kept doing it over and over.


Edit:  And the pedals on my Proteg? are super close together.  I can do a modified heel-and-toe as well; basically blipping the gas with the right edge of my foot while the ball of my foot is still mostly centered (though a bit to the right) on the brake.

I hope that you're on a race track when doing all that.  Otherwise, it's just silly .

[SVT666]

And yet, when I drove across the US from Seattle to Baltimore, I had 8 hour stretches where all I did was drive basically straight at between 65-75mph. I was in my manual trans Contour SVT Was the fact that it was a manual trans change anything?

Nope.  It's an SVT, that's what made the difference.

[The Pirate]

I hope that you're on a race track when doing all that.  Otherwise, it's just silly .

How is it silly?  You don't need to be driving at 10/10ths (or anywhere near it) to heel-and-toe.  I've done it plenty of times on back roads where I'm only traveling 5 to 10 mph above the speed limit.

[NomisR]

I know what you mean but for me, driving certain interstates is just plain boring when there's not much to see but rocks, rocks, sand, rocks.  It may be interestiing the first time you've done it but after the nth time, it gets old.  It's just a means to get from point A to point B. 

[FoMoJo]

How is it silly?  You don't need to be driving at 10/10ths (or anywhere near it) to heel-and-toe.  I've done it plenty of times on back roads where I'm only traveling 5 to 10 mph above the speed limit.

That's okay .  I've done a lot of silly things behind the wheel as well .

[The Pirate]

That's okay .  I've done a lot of silly things behind the wheel as well .

Hehehe, I think I misunderstood your post a bit.  I'm very cognizant of driving on roads, and never reckless (at least not anymore; I was a teenager at one point and did make my fair share of bonehead moves).  And that's why having a slow car is enjoyable, I can have some fun with it, and still not be driving in an irresponsible manner.

[Raza]

Manual for me.  Maybe an automatic in five or ten years, but I've done both and trust me, the Porsche does not have a light clutch.  There is no practical difference between an automatic and an SMT/DCT.  I see no reason to choose one over the other for traffic, other than the issue Clarkson brought up.  It's possible that the lack of a manual clutch means modulating small movements in city traffic would be difficult.  The computer may not react fast enough to keep you from rolling in your run of the mill SMT.  DCT transmissions seem to be the wave of the future.  Nearly as quick as an SMT, but far smoother in day to day traffic.  Mind you, this is conjecture based on articles I've read on the technology.

[Raza]

Chris makes several good points, as usual.  It's true that the difference in driving a manual and an automatic are not enormous, but I'll come out and say that I just like driving a stick better.  I'm also currently only considering a manual for my next car, so I can become as perfect as Trep was after his first five minutes...

[NomisR]

One thing manual has over auto though, is engine braking.  It doesn't work for shit in an auto.  Whereas I can slow down as fast or faster than some asshole riding there brakes in a manual.

[Soup DeVille]

One thing manual has over auto though, is engine braking.  It doesn't work for shit in an auto.  Whereas I can slow down as fast or faster than some asshole riding there brakes in a manual.

I've never had any problem engine braking with an automatic.

[Eye of the Tiger]

On the subject of transmissions, let me say that the automatic in my dad's girlfriend's 2005-ish Saab 9-5 completely ruins the car. The manual mode is even worse than the automatic, because it takes 1-2 seconds before it shifts, downshifts will make you bang your head on the steering wheel, and sometimes it won't shift at all if it doesn't agree with your choice. Also, there's the sudden torque steer when the turbo spools up. Otherwise, it is a fine driving automobile, and the 2.3L turbo is more than satisfactory.

[CALL_911]

according to 2o6, you can't pay attention that easily on a short interstate trip like that then yes, I have to say you probably shouldn't be driving.

He's never driven a car before.

[ChrisV]

One thing manual has over auto though, is engine braking.  It doesn't work for shit in an auto.  Whereas I can slow down as fast or faster than some asshole riding there brakes in a manual.

Well, that also depends on the automatic. My V8 RX7 with the B&M modded autobox would engine brake like a mofo when you got off the throttle due to being a lockup type converter above a certain rpm, and the revalved valve body putting out more pressure on the bands for each planetary gearset. It was a little extreme for street driving, as I had it set up for race use, and it could downshift pretty violently as you slowed. None of this luxury car smoothness where you don't feel the shifts. When it dropped a gear as you slowed, your head would go forward just like the brakes were applied...

The BMW doesn't engine brake anywhere near as much, though it does slow nicely. But then again, if I wanted to slow down fast, I always use the brakes regardless of type of transmission. Now I can see an issue with a normal stock automatic going down long hills and having to use the brakes to maintain speed more than you would in a good manual trans car. But it's been a long time since I had a car that had brake fade from gentle use of the brakes going down long hills. Hell, since I moved to the east coast, I really haven't had any roads that would count as coming down long hills out of the mountains. They simply don't have what I'd call mountains out here... hehehe. Even the downhill portions of Skyline Drive in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia simply weren't enough of a downhill to work the brakes in the BMW.

But that's beside the point for the commute. I've simply never had a place where I said, in any commute, "damn I wish I had more engine braking."

OTOH, I've burned up two Porsche 911 clutches driving in the rush hour home from Seattle southbound on I5 up the looong hill from Tuckwilla to Midway in stop and go traffic from the clutch going in and out and slipping to maintain 5-10 mph and going from first to second to first to neutral to first to neutral to first to second to first to... and take a half hour to go just about 5 miles up hill. Did I mention I really like my 15 minute backroad commute now? Hehehehe.

[Raza]

Nick:  Try blipping the throttle when you downshift the Saab.  It smooths out downshifts in my Passat. 

And yes, you can engine brake with a good manumatic.  The older gated manual function automatics just overall don't work very well. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Nick:  Try blipping the throttle when you downshift the Saab.  It smooths out downshifts in my Passat. 

And yes, you can engine brake with a good manumatic.  The older gated manual function automatics just overall don't work very well. 

I'll try that next time I drive it, but it will be hard to time it because of the inconsistent and often excessively long time between me pushing the - button and the actualy shifting.

[Rupert]

I've never had any problem engine braking with an automatic.

Indeed. Likewise, I've had manuals that couldn't engine brake for shit.

[Soup DeVille]

Indeed. Likewise, I've had manuals that couldn't engine brake for shit.

Engine braking actually has more to do with the engine, as obvious as that sounds.