Big Lux---Smaller Engines

[Yawn]

With the gas prices going through the roof, do you the think more Lux brands in the states will start offering smaller fuel efficient engines in its larger sedans. Since these choices are offered elsewhere, it would not be so difficult to bring here.. They were even sold here in the past anyways before the horsepower wars started.

S300, E200, A6 2.0, 730i, etc..

[the Teuton]

I just saw a last gen S320 the other day.  That surprised me.  I didn't know we got that car here.

[Submariner]

I just saw a last gen S320 the other day.  That surprised me.  I didn't know we got that car here.

We even got a LWB version.

[Yawn]

I know the S350 was offerred here at the end of the course..But now its only the S550.. I also thought it was strange..I know many that like the big sedans but hate the big engines..

[omicron]

In Australia, the S350, S500, S600L and S65L AMG are sold, and we are soon to get the S320 CDI - measured at 8.3l/100km (28.3mpg). A diesel engine in such a large sedan seems like the optimal combination to me, given the low-rev, high-torque characteristics of most modern diesel engines.

[93JC]

I doubt we will see anything resembling an E200, but I would be surprised if six-cylinder 7-serieses and S-classes don't make a return. They're still quite big and powerful.

Four-cylinders in the likes of the 3-series and C-class seem possible but doubtful. Part of owning a luxury car is having a big, oversized engine (to one extent or another).

[Yawn]

I agree but I think that part will soon change..

[nickdrinkwater]

The Mercedes 3.7(?) litre engine is quite powerful.  I don't see why buyers in the US wouldn't be interested in S or SL Class with this engine.

[93JC]

I agree but I think that part will soon change..

No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.

And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).

[nickdrinkwater]

No, it will never change.

You sound like a GM or Ford employee...

[93JC]

What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?

Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?

You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."

Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.

From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.

[Vinsanity]

What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?

Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?

You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."

Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.

From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.

People who buy luxury cars (at least new luxury cars) still aren't as affected by gas prices as people who buy family cars. While I can imagine the typical lux buyer going for something like an E280 or GS250 over a similarly-priced C350 or IS350, most buyers shopping the entry-lux market would just take a fully loaded 4-cylinder Camcord over a smaller-engine C-class or Lexus IS if they wanted to save $$$.

You may remember that the previous Cadillac CTS offered a smaller 2.8 engine, but noone bought it because it was hopelessly outgunned by V6 family sedans. Even if that was when gas was less than $3.00/gal, the 2.8 CTS just managed to get a whopping 1 mpg better than the 3.6 engine. Certainly that won't be the case for all luxury cars with downsized engines, but the principle of diminishing returns still remains in play. Luxury cars are heavy, almost by definition. Beyond considerable technological improvements, it would be too much to ask for a sub-200hp engine to pull 3500-4000 lbs and return a combined 30 mpg.

[AltinD]

I was tempted to get and tried the Audi A6 2.0T, then I tested the VW Passat 3.2 AWD with DSG and ...

[Colonel Cadillac]

If those big luxury cars didn't say S550, 600 etc and they just were the "S-class" and each person could just choose whether or not they wanted the bigger engine without the numbers being written down somewhere on the car, I bet you many more people would buy the smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

For example, the S430 was plenty powerful, but everyone would always get the S500 despite their most likely never using the power advantage of the 500. I rarely see an S430, but the S500 is all over the place.

[93JC]

Similarly I don't think I've even seen an S450 before, even though I know they sell it.

[The Pirate]

If those big luxury cars didn't say S550, 600 etc and they just were the "S-class" and each person could just choose whether or not they wanted the bigger engine without the numbers being written down somewhere on the car, I bet you many more people would buy the smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

For example, the S430 was plenty powerful, but everyone would always get the S500 despite their most likely never using the power advantage of the 500. I rarely see an S430, but the S500 is all over the place.

There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car.  I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.


Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. 

[hotrodalex]

There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car.  I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.


Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. 

I hate cars like that. Talk about just wanting to show off.

[SVT_Power]

I hate cars like that. Talk about just wanting to show offbeing retarded.

there

[Submariner]

No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.

And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).

Plenty of people drove Diesel S-classes in the 80's.  Not exactly rockets, those cars were.

[GoCougs]

Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.

People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.

[Submariner]

There are buyers who do buy the car with the smallest engine option then put badges from the high-lux version on the car.  I've seen a few V8 powered 7-series cars with 750iL badging, and also base model Benz sedans with the badges from the V12 cars.


Saw 750i badging on a 5-series once too. 

I saw an S-430 with S-55 badging once.

[omicron]

Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.

People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.

Bless you for using that phrase properly.

No, it will never change. Owning a luxury car is an emblem of social status and money; rich people don't drive luxury cars with puny engines, and they never will, because puny engines are for the masses.

And, really, what separates a luxury car from any other car other than the big, powerful engine and high level of standard equipment? You can get A/C, power everything, etc. in a Kia, but you can't get a big, powerful V8 that gets 15 mpg in anything other than a luxury car (excluding trucks, trucky things and sports cars, of course).

I want to special-order a 7.0 litre V8 Caprice. Pedestrians beware - two-tonnes, five and a half metres and five hundred and ten horses coming through!

[nickdrinkwater]

What do GM and Ford have to do with anything?

Look: what reasons do people have to buy luxury cars?

You may think of a few more, but I think we can agree it's mostly as a status symbol. It's meant to rub the fact that luxury car owners have money in the faces of everyone else. Part of that is having a big engine that moves the car quickly and drinks lots of fuel. Why? It says "Yes, I know it costs me a lot to fuel my car, but I'm rich enough that I can easily afford it."

Buying a four-cylinder E-class (for example) is a shitty compromise. A four-cylinder E-class says "I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy the six-cylinder" or "I can afford to finance this car but can't afford the fuel bills". That's not luxurious.

From your perspective this may seem ridiculous, as I'm sure there are lots of four-cylinder E-classes tooling around the UK. They're still more powerful and faster than the average Focus or whatever is the most popular family car in the UK, though. Keep in mind the average family sedan in North America has 200+ horsepower; many are closing in on 300 hp. It's ludicrous, yes, but luxury car brands have to stay ahead of these average family sedans in order to justify themselves as luxury brands. Otherwise they're just expensive cars.

I meant your attitude that things will never change.  I'm sure that's the kind of thinking that got those companies into the mess they are in now.

I agree with you to an extent but a lot of Mercedes and BMW owners probably don't exceed the highway/motorway speed limit.  They would never take advantage of the power that some of these engines offer.

Also, if gas prices keep rising, maybe mainstream cars will downsize, making a smaller engined luxury car more acceptable.  Plus, people want to feel good about themselves by driving something supposedly good for the environment (i.e. Prius) so there is that angle to consider, too.

In Europe, diesel engined luxury cars are popular with company car drivers.  Maybe company car drivers in the USA would be happy to lower their fuel bills by choosing a slightly smaller engine?

I'm not talking stupidly underpowered, I'm thinking along the lines of the SL350 (over 300 bhp).

[Yawn]

Not in America will there be much if any market for an S350 or A6 2.0T.

People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.

Most of you are outside of California where you dont have that mentality. Most people outside of California who buy those cars are rich and could care less. In California where its the largest market share in the state, you see people with the S350's, the older SL 300's.. The older 735i, etc.. I think the market is there

[93JC]

I meant your attitude that things will never change.  I'm sure that's the kind of thinking that got those companies into the mess they are in now.

To the contrary, I'm starting to believe that nothing really changed, and Ford and GM got into the messes they're in now because they anticipated changes that never happened.

I agree with you to an extent but a lot of Mercedes and BMW owners probably don't exceed the highway/motorway speed limit.  They would never take advantage of the power that some of these engines offer.

Neither will Bugatti Veyron owners, but that didn't stop them from buying the blingiest bling in the world. It's not about taking advantage of that power: it's about simply having it.

Also, if gas prices keep rising, maybe mainstream cars will downsize, making a smaller engined luxury car more acceptable.

I think that will happen, but I don't think it will affect luxury cars very much.

Plus, people want to feel good about themselves by driving something supposedly good for the environment (i.e. Prius) so there is that angle to consider, too.

They buy Priuses and such for that though, not Mercedes-Benzes. Sales of hybrids other than the Prius are mediocre, because a hybrid powertrain in an otherwise normal wrapper doesn't say "I'm an environmentally conscious person" like a Prius does.

In Europe, diesel engined luxury cars are popular with company car drivers.  Maybe company car drivers in the USA would be happy to lower their fuel bills by choosing a slightly smaller engine?

1. "Company cars" are quite rare, and are often a fleet vehicle for the company as a whole anyway, not someone's take-home car.
2. Companies that have the money for company cars generally have the money to buy whatever powertrain they want.
3. Company cars are usually average, everyday mid-sized sedans (Camry, Accord, Impala and the like).

I'm not talking stupidly underpowered, I'm thinking along the lines of the SL350 (over 300 bhp).

I foretold the return of big sixes in many of these cars, because, as I said, they're still quite powerful. What we won't see, at least in the next decade or two, will be things like E200s. 523i's, maybe, but not the piddly four-bangers.

[Vinsanity]

People who buy such cars couldn't care less about fuel economy.

Right, but the prospect of owning an E-class Benz for C-class money would be more of a selling point than fuel economy. That's a major reason the 5-series and the 3-series (and 1-series!) share the same base engine in the US.

[Vinsanity]

Plenty of people drove Diesel S-classes in the 80's.  Not exactly rockets, those cars were.

Neither were the 180-hp Coupe DeVilles and 150-hp Lincoln Continentals of the time, either. Compared to those cars, a diesel S-class could at least hold its own.

[cawimmer430]

With the gas prices going through the roof, do you the think more Lux brands in the states will start offering smaller fuel efficient engines in its larger sedans. Since these choices are offered elsewhere, it would not be so difficult to bring here.. They were even sold here in the past anyways before the horsepower wars started.

S300, E200, A6 2.0, 730i, etc..

E200? 

I'm all for these things but the E200 from the W210 E-Class was a slug. The E200 Kompressor that came after the facelift was much better but it's not very agile in the E-Class (I've driven it) because the car is too heavy.

[2o6]

I didn't know there was a such thing as an E200. It's an E-class with a 2.0 4cyl, right? 

[ChrisV]

heres one I wouldn't mind having:

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/539377

e38 7 series 730d. 3 liter diesel and about 32 mpg