***1985 Mercedes-Benz 300SE Engine Problems (Pics)***

[cawimmer430]

We're planning on selling the 1985 Mercedes 300SE because the garage we're storing it in is being torn down to build a home for the old and because it is hardly being driven. One of our neighbors has expressed interest since he's an avid Mercedes fan and plans on fixing the car up for a business he's going to start up - namely driving newly weds in a limousine and this car is perfect for the job.

There was only one problem: the engine of the 300SE, with its 178,000 km+, had a strange metallic sound emitting from it Various people, including the local Mercedes dealership suspected a valve problem. Thankfully my dad got to know a competent Mercedes mechanic named Erich L?sch who has over 30 years experience with all sorts of Mercedes cars. He came over one day, we fired the car up and within a few minutes (just from listening to the sound) he said he suspected it was a camshaft problem. A week later he came over again with his tools and took apart the top part of the engine to see how many camshafts were affected.

Before the "operation". My dad and the experienced Mercedes mechanic, Erich L?sch discussing something about the car.


The engine with the plastic covering still on. The airfilter has been removed to allow access and the wiring leading to the sparkplugs has also been removed as a safety precaution.


Unscrewing the protective plastic covering.


Let's remove it!


Voila!


That long metallic bar in the middle acts as protection for the camshafts. It had to go.


With the bar removed, we now had perfect access to the camshafts. One of us had to crawl under the car and stick a metal bar into a small port located under the engine and rotate it. Through this action the camshafts and valves would operate and Mr. L?sch could inspect each one of them for damage.


A closer view...


Aha! Problem found! A slightly deformed camshaft!



The last picture says it all. Only one camshaft was affected. The problem appeared to be a deformaty with the metal and the sound we hear comes from the contanct this deformed camshaft experiences while rotating.

Here's the killer. Our 300SE is valued at about ? 1,300. A spare camshaft of this type for an M103 E30 engine will cost ? 76.00 each - and it is recommended that if one chamshaft is changed, the others should be changed as well. Add to that the very expensive Mercedes labor costs and you'll easily reach a bill of under a ? 1,000 since this task will take not "a few hours" but many hours. Essentially it could cost more to fix the car than the vehicle is actually worth. Mr. L?sch has said that this problem often occurs with the M103 E30 engine.

My dad is still deciding what to do. More updates to follow. 

[S204STi]

Wow, the lobe flattened at the apex...  yeah that may cause some odd noises.

[CJ]

I say fix it.

[Danish]

Roy- what would cause the lobe to be flattened? Would the rocker arm assembly need replacing also?

[GoCougs]

Excellent visual documenation.

I've replaced camshafts in two vehicles for the exact same reason: flat lobe(s). They just wear over time. Newer engines have what are referred to "roller" camshafts; the interface between lobe and rocker is a rolling element rather than just a slab of metal:



I'd sell it cheap to a guy who can do the cam swap himself, or sell it to a junk yard.

[cawimmer430]

Wow, the lobe flattened at the apex...  yeah that may cause some odd noises.

Yep, the engine sounds very noisy when idling. When the car is in motion with a gear engaged you don't really hear it. 

[cawimmer430]

I say fix it.

Problem is repairing it will cost more than the car is worth. And we already have FOUR cars total, this 300SE, the E320, the 500SL and the 118i. Plus the garage we're storing it in is going to be torn down next year. We need to get rid of it because we have no place to store it. Finding a garage here is difficult - and expensive. 


By the way, sending your package off soon! The chocolate I want you to try is coming to the shops next week! 

[cawimmer430]

Excellent visual documenation.

I've replaced camshafts in two vehicles for the exact same reason: flat lobe(s). They just wear over time. Newer engines have what are referred to "roller" camshafts; the interface between lobe and rocker is a rolling element rather than just a slab of metal:



I'd sell it cheap to a guy who can do the cam swap himself, or sell it to a junk yard.

Thanks. 

We've tried selling it to junkyards but they won't buy it because they only want to pay ? 500 max. for it. This despite the car being in excellent shape and only having seen ONE WINTER ONLY! 

[Pommes-T]

It's kinda sad to see how little old luxury cars are worth these days.

[AutobahnSHO]

Most old collectible cars cost more to repair than they're worth at some point-

Problem is you'd have to wait another 30yrs for that car to become collectible.   ;-)

Post an ad and see if anyone wants to buy/repair it??

[Byteme]

So, outside of noise what is the prognosis if you do nothing ande continue to drive it? 

With the repair cost being equal to the car value and no junkyard wanting to pay what you want you might just consider driving it until it breaks and then junking it.

[FoMoJo]

 ? 76.00 doesn't sound like much for a camshaft.  By the parts and get Herr L?sch to help you fix it .

[cawimmer430]

Most old collectible cars cost more to repair than they're worth at some point-

Problem is you'd have to wait another 30yrs for that car to become collectible.   ;-)

That was the original plan, keeping it until it reaches oldtimer status. But a lack of storage space has changed the plans...

Post an ad and see if anyone wants to buy/repair it??

We did. Most people are just interested in paying less than a ? 1,000 for it and use it as a beater. My dad wants at least ? 2,000 for it though.

[cawimmer430]

So, outside of noise what is the prognosis if you do nothing ande continue to drive it?

The mechanic said that this problem is generally "harmless" but it "could" eventually lead to some engine damage later on.

With the repair cost being equal to the car value and no junkyard wanting to pay what you want you might just consider driving it until it breaks and then junking it.

Problem is that if this car were registered it would cost a fortune to run. The 300SE is quite economical (for its age, size and weight) on fuel needing about 10-11 liters / 100 km if driven normally. Problem again is that there are so many car taxes and insurances that will need to be filled out and they're going to kill us. The car also needs a liter of oil after about 1,500 km of driving making it an "oil guzzler". It's going to be expensive so we really have to get rid of it.

[cawimmer430]

? 76.00 doesn't sound like much for a camshaft.  By the parts and get Herr L?sch to help you fix it .

Yep, the rockers / camshaft are pretty cheap but Mr. L?sch said that the work on the engine will take a couple of hours as the engine will need to be removed for synchronization purposes and this means easily 5 hours+. And Mercedes labor costs here are expensive as hell per hour. The bill will easily approach or exceed ? 1,000.

Our E320 was actually in the shop this morning because of a damaged Zugstrebe (don't know what this is in English but it's part of the suspension) on the forward left wheel. The spare part costs ? 130 and the final bill was ? 324 after 2.5 hours of working on it. Labor costs for MB dealers is very high as you can see.

And since most independent non-MB mechanic shops couldn't identify the problem, my dad doesn't want them working on the engine. Only certified MB mechanics should be touching this engine in his opinion. 

Zugstrebe...

[Cookie Monster]

Yep, the rockers / camshaft are pretty cheap but Mr. L?sch said that the work on the engine will take a couple of hours as the engine will need to be removed for synchronization purposes and this means easily 5 hours+. And Mercedes labor costs here are expensive as hell per hour. The bill will easily approach or exceed ? 1,000.

Our E320 was actually in the shop this morning because of a damaged Zugstrebe (don't know what this is in English but it's part of the suspension) on the forward left wheel. The spare part costs ? 130 and the final bill was ? 324 after 2.5 hours of working on it. Labor costs for MB dealers is very high as you can see.

And since most independent non-MB mechanic shops couldn't identify the problem, my dad doesn't want them working on the engine. Only certified MB mechanics should be touching this engine in his opinion. 

Zugstrebe...

Tierod?

[GoCougs]

Thanks. 

We've tried selling it to junkyards but they won't buy it because they only want to pay ? 500 max. for it. This despite the car being in excellent shape and only having seen ONE WINTER ONLY! 

I guess I never gave my opinion. I wouldn't fix it. An engine can last for a long time with a bad cam lobe. You'll have noise, and as it wears there will be a decrease in smoothness. In theory you'll lose a bit of power but my guess is that with that many miles you won't feel it.

The problems will arise when the lobe becomes worn excessively - since that is an intake lobe you'll effectively lose a cylinder. It has to get pretty bad for that to happen, and my hunch is that the engine will croak because of something else before that happens.

[S204STi]

Roy- what would cause the lobe to be flattened? Would the rocker arm assembly need replacing also?

Cougs nailed it. 

[cawimmer430]

Tierod?

Maybe!

[cawimmer430]

I guess I never gave my opinion. I wouldn't fix it. An engine can last for a long time with a bad cam lobe. You'll have noise, and as it wears there will be a decrease in smoothness. In theory you'll lose a bit of power but my guess is that with that many miles you won't feel it.

The problems will arise when the lobe becomes worn excessively - since that is an intake lobe you'll effectively lose a cylinder. It has to get pretty bad for that to happen, and my hunch is that the engine will croak because of something else before that happens.

Well my dad wants it fixed because it can raise the value of the car by a bit and also attract more buyers. That's the only reason he wants it fixed. Two prospective buyers were shooed away when they heard about the "engine refinement problems". Makes you wonder why they're interested in an old car and then care about top refinement. 

[Submariner]

It's always sad to see an old car go, especially that old beauty.

Hope everything works out!

[Byteme]

Well my dad wants it fixed because it can raise the value of the car by a bit and also attract more buyers. That's the only reason he wants it fixed. Two prospective buyers were shooed away when they heard about the "engine refinement problems". Makes you wonder why they're interested in an old car and then care about top refinement. 

Looks to me like you have the following choices:

1.  Keep it, run it.  You indicated that this is not an option though.

2.  Sell it as is.  You stated the car is valued at 1300 Euros and I think you indicated you might get 1000 euros from a buyer.  Where did you come up with a value of 1300 euros?  I would guess that is the value with a good engine.

3.  Fix it and sell it.  There is no guarantee that you could get 1300 euros, even with the camshaft replaced.  The value of 1300 is only valid if someone is willing to write a check for that amount.  But, assuming you could get 1300 you would be better off selling it for 1000 unless you could have it repaired to less than 300 euros.

4.  You stated your dad wants 2000 euros for it.  How can he expect to get that if the value, as you state in your initial post is 1300 euros?  

[cawimmer430]

Looks to me like you have the following choices:

1.  Keep it, run it.  You indicated that this is not an option though.

2.  Sell it as is.  You stated the car is valued at 1300 Euros and I think you indicated you might get 1000 euros from a buyer.  Where did you come up with a value of 1300 euros?  I would guess that is the value with a good engine.

3.  Fix it and sell it.  There is no guarantee that you could get 1300 euros, even with the camshaft replaced.  The value of 1300 is only valid if someone is willing to write a check for that amount.  But, assuming you could get 1300 you would be better off selling it for 1000 unless you could have it repaired to less than 300 euros.

4.  You stated your dad wants 2000 euros for it.  How can he expect to get that if the value, as you state in your initial post is 1300 euros? 

We had the car professionally evaluated and ? 1,300 was the figure given to us. It's a "low mileage" car (180,000 km only) which has only seen one mild winter, is rust-free and in good condition. Only the engine and the lack of standard features make it less appealing on the used car market. The only options the first owner paid for were the automatic transmission, sunroof and electric windows for the two forward doors only (rear door windows need to be cranked down by hand). My dad thinks he can at least ask for ? 2,000 for the car based on the fact that it was used as a summer car for long distance cruising and minimal use in the city and city traffic and the fact that it has only seen one mild winter.

In a few minutes someone is coming over to check out the car...

[GoCougs]

For what it's worth, and having been there before with many old cars, IMO it's never worth fixing a car to sell it; especially a big repair, as it never pays off. With big repairs on an older car you run the risk of creating more problems.

The last time I did a camshaft swap, the radiator, water pump and heater core had to be replaced. Soon after the car was started after the camshaft swap, all three of these started to leak. What happened is that the seals and structural elements dried out after draining the coolant and letting the car sit for a few days. And I didn't have to remove the engine, either.

[cawimmer430]

For what it's worth, and having been there before with many old cars, IMO it's never worth fixing a car to sell it; especially a big repair, as it never pays off. With big repairs on an older car you run the risk of creating more problems.

The last time I did a camshaft swap, the radiator, water pump and heater core had to be replaced. Soon after the car was started after the camshaft swap, all three of these started to leak. What happened is that the seals and structural elements dried out after draining the coolant and letting the car sit for a few days. And I didn't have to remove the engine, either.

Thanks for the input. I'll tell my dad this but he probably won't listen. He thinks that by having the car fixed he can get more money out of it. This is probably because in Germany this works. Professional car value estimators will raise the value of your car if it has been fixed or makes a cleaner impression.

[Byteme]

Thanks for the input. I'll tell my dad this but he probably won't listen. He thinks that by having the car fixed he can get more money out of it. This is probably because in Germany this works. Professional car value estimators will raise the value of your car if it has been fixed or makes a cleaner impression.

Well, the same holds true here as well.  But it only makes sense if the cost of the repair is exceeded by the change in the car's value.  And then you have to consider the value of your time and the hassle factor.  If the net gain is small, say 100 Euros, is the hassle of repair and putting the car on the market worth it?  Only you can answer that last question.

[cawimmer430]

Well, the same holds true here as well.  But it only makes sense if the cost of the repair is exceeded by the change in the car's value.  And then you have to consider the value of your time and the hassle factor.  If the net gain is small, say 100 Euros, is the hassle of repair and putting the car on the market worth it?  Only you can answer that last question.

Thanks again. 

I'll keep you guys updated on what happens. Currently there is a guy interested in the car but no word yet on if he is willing to buy the car and then fix the problem himself.

[sportyaccordy]

Just pray that whoever gets it doesn't do this to it