Crap - my daughter nicked by the old bill for passing a school bus

[TBR]

I would hate to be stuck behind one of those black and yellow rolling schicanes in a place like New York.

There's not too many things more aggravating than getting stuck behind a school bus on a twisty two lane (so no opportunity to pass when it isn't stopped) when you're already running late for class.

[bing_oh]

Red lights: all traffic both ways stops.

Amber lights: pass with caution.

That goes for divided roads as well.

Actually, you don't have to stop approaching a stopped school bus from the opposite direction on a four-lane or more roadway...at least, not in Ohio.

[dazzleman]

Actually, you don't have to stop approaching a stopped school bus from the opposite direction on a four-lane or more roadway...at least, not in Ohio.

I think the rule here is that you don't have to stop if you're on the opposite side of a road where the opposing traffic is separated by a median.  I'm not really sure, though, and I should be.  They whack you pretty hard for passing a stopped school bus in this state.

[93JC]

A few years a go in Canada I saw a school bus come to stop on a four lane road (no barrier in between) with all the lights blinking. I was the only other vehicle in sight, coming from the opposite direction,  so I stopped because I did not know what to do.

Does one really have top stop for a blinking school bus on a four lane road?

Depends on the jurisdiction, but in Alberta you are required to stop a certain distance from the bus (100 m or something like that) no matter which side of the road you are on. You did the right thing, if you happened to be driving here.

Or more to the point are the school bus drivers allowed to let children cross a four lane road, instead of having the bus make a U turn?

No, but you're required to stop anyway.


Being the city slicker that I am, I have never seen a school bus using its lights. In fact many if not most of the school buses in the city don't have stop signs mounted to them, from my own personal experience.

[sparkplug]

Don't fill too bad because it may be worth it if it helps her to be a better driver. She may realize there are idiot bus drivers. In fact, my dad has told me stories about in the old days, some bus drivers would turn the red lights just to cause trouble. Those were buttholes.

[bing_oh]

They whack you pretty hard for passing a stopped school bus in this state.

Same in Ohio, which is as it should be IMHO. That's why I'm a bit miffed by the number of people on here who are advocating that Morris try to weasel his daughter out of the ticket in court...if she did it, she should take the punishment and try to make it a learning lesson for her as a new driver. And, at least in my opinion, there are some traffic violations where it's just not kosher to try to play the system and minimize the punishment. It shows a lack of regard for safety as a motorist and a lack of responsibility for ones actions.

[Minpin]

Same in Ohio, which is as it should be IMHO. That's why I'm a bit miffed by the number of people on here who are advocating that Morris try to weasel his daughter out of the ticket in court...if she did it, she should take the punishment and try to make it a learning lesson for her as a new driver. And, at least in my opinion, there are some traffic violations where it's just not kosher to try to play the system and minimize the punishment. It shows a lack of regard for safety as a motorist and a lack of responsibility for ones actions.

Nope, just shows that she doesn't want her license taken away and she wants to save some major cash. You were close though. 

[bing_oh]

Nope, just shows that she doesn't want her license taken away and she wants to save some major cash. You were close though. 

She's a juvenile. I've never seen a juvenile court impose a fine that even came close to "major cash." Most juvenile court fines are less than just court costs in an adult court. And, what if she does lose her license for a time (something that's not guaranteed, let's remember)? It's not like she needs her license to go to work so she can make the mortgage payment and put food on the table. And, there's a better than average chance that, if she were to lose her license, a request from Morris for driving privileges to and from school and work would be granted. So, she loses her license for non-essential driving and maybe learns a lesson that encourages her to think and act responsibly as a driver. That's a bad thing?

[Minpin]

She's a juvenile. I've never seen a juvenile court impose a fine that even came close to "major cash." Most juvenile court fines are less than just court costs in an adult court. And, what if she does lose her license for a time (something that's not guaranteed, let's remember)? It's not like she needs her license to go to work so she can make the mortgage payment and put food on the table. And, there's a better than average chance that, if she were to lose her license, a request from Morris for driving privileges to and from school and work would be granted. So, she loses her license for non-essential driving and maybe learns a lesson that encourages her to think and act responsibly as a driver. That's a bad thing?

What's a Juvenile court? When I got my tickets I went to the same court as everyone other poor schmuck who was unfairly busted for a stupid petty driving enforcement law. I know you're a cop so it's a good thing you think like you do, but to the average person, we want to get the least amount of trouble for a pesky ticket.

She made a mistake and will probably never do it again. I learned from my mistakes for sure and I had a lawyer with me. And morris already said how much of a pain it would be if she were to lose her license and I believe that is his concern on this matter and not so much the fees/fines and what have you.

Just my thoughts on this, and I know you will disagree but that's fine. The only thing I hate more than getting a ticket from the police is getting a ticket from a crooked ass cop.




And no offense intended to any hardworking police here.

[Rupert]

Same in Ohio, which is as it should be IMHO. That's why I'm a bit miffed by the number of people on here who are advocating that Morris try to weasel his daughter out of the ticket in court...if she did it, she should take the punishment and try to make it a learning lesson for her as a new driver. And, at least in my opinion, there are some traffic violations where it's just not kosher to try to play the system and minimize the punishment. It shows a lack of regard for safety as a motorist and a lack of responsibility for ones actions.

It sounds from the OP that the bus driver waved a bunch of cars to pass and turned the lights on while they were doing so. That's not really fair, and given the potential severity of the punishment, it sounds like it's ethical and worth it to get a lawyer. Maybe I've read it wrong or there was more to the story, but that's what I gather. If she passed after the lights had already been flashing, I'd think everyone would agree that she deserves what she got.

[dazzleman]

What's a Juvenile court? When I got my tickets I went to the same court as everyone other poor schmuck who was unfairly busted for a stupid petty driving enforcement law. I know you're a cop so it's a good thing you think like you do, but to the average person, we want to get the least amount of trouble for a pesky ticket.

She made a mistake and will probably never do it again. I learned from my mistakes for sure and I had a lawyer with me. And morris already said how much of a pain it would be if she were to lose her license and I believe that is his concern on this matter and not so much the fees/fines and what have you.

Just my thoughts on this, and I know you will disagree but that's fine. The only thing I hate more than getting a ticket from the police is getting a ticket from a crooked ass cop.




And no offense intended to any hardworking police here.

Honestly dude, you're undermining your own argument here.  You're making the assumption that people in traffic court were 'unfairly busted' for 'stupid petty driving enforcement law.'  Then you go on to say that you 'learned your lesson' but that you had a lawyer with you.

Traffic laws aren't petty, because people can die when we drive unsafely, so the assumption that people in traffic court were 'unfairly busted' isn't an accurate one.  More likely, there are lots of people who should be there who are not, and there are a lot of people who were not treated nearly as harshly by traffic court as they deserved to be.  The fact that you're not really recognizing that casts some doubt on your claim to have learned your lesson.  And let's be clear -- lawyers (and I assume yours was paid for by your father) are there to help guilty people evade responsibility for their actions, in most case, all the beautiful claims about our justice system notwithstanding.

As for Morris Minor's daughter, the situation sounds a little murky, so I'm not going to pass judgment.  But if she is in fact guilty of passing a stopped school bus, then some sort of punishment is in order.  The idea that we should be able to pick a punishment that is convenient defeats the whole purpose.  You say it would be a 'pain' if she lost her license for a little while, and really that's the whole point.  Punishments that we don't find painful in some way only embolden us to continue with whatever behavior led to them.

[GoCougs]

The system wouldn't work if it wasn't inherently adversarial.

[hounddog]

Yikes - serious when they MAKE you go to court. If it were me I'd spend a $100-$200 or so and consult with an attorney.

Not really, all misdemeanor violations here must go to court.  That includes expired plates, operating without insurance, open alcohol, minor transporting alcohol (even closed in the trunk), and so on.  Only exceptions to that are DOT violations because here all DOT violations are misdemeanors including speeding. 

As for the lawyer, not a bad idea, but probably not needed.  I am certainly not giving out legal advice because I am no lawyer, but my experience is that when people go in and show remorse for thier actions when they apologize they usually get some slack.  She could tell the judge she knows what she did was wrong, and is willing to accept the punishment.  Then ask for restrictions for to and from school, to and from work and to and from her internship, etc. 

[hounddog]

With consequences such as you have outlined, an attorney sounds like a good investment.  It also sounds like the state/law enforcment/courts institution wants to intimidate kids at the earliest possible opportunity.  Leaving "enforcement" up to bus drivers smacks of opportunism And Big Brotherism.  I'd love to cross-examine a bus driver under oath.

My guess is that the school is using it as a revenue generator. 

Most states allow this as it is a misdemeanor, and citizens may file complaints on misdemeanors as witnesses and victims.  In this case the victim is society, and the bus driver is the witness (who is trained to deal with people running the bus lights as most states mandate).  The most basic building blocks of a criminal case, and you do not even understand them.  I am shocked.

I am willing to bet you would be bested by the bus driver.

[bing_oh]

Honestly dude, you're undermining your own argument here.  You're making the assumption that people in traffic court were 'unfairly busted' for 'stupid petty driving enforcement law.'  Then you go on to say that you 'learned your lesson' but that you had a lawyer with you.

Traffic laws aren't petty, because people can die when we drive unsafely, so the assumption that people in traffic court were 'unfairly busted' isn't an accurate one.  More likely, there are lots of people who should be there who are not, and there are a lot of people who were not treated nearly as harshly by traffic court as they deserved to be.  The fact that you're not really recognizing that casts some doubt on your claim to have learned your lesson.  And let's be clear -- lawyers (and I assume yours was paid for by your father) are there to help guilty people evade responsibility for their actions, in most case, all the beautiful claims about our justice system notwithstanding.

As for Morris Minor's daughter, the situation sounds a little murky, so I'm not going to pass judgment.  But if she is in fact guilty of passing a stopped school bus, then some sort of punishment is in order.  The idea that we should be able to pick a punishment that is convenient defeats the whole purpose.  You say it would be a 'pain' if she lost her license for a little while, and really that's the whole point.  Punishments that we don't find painful in some way only embolden us to continue with whatever behavior led to them.

Daz, you're always the voice of reason around here.

First and foremost, I'd never advocate that an innocent person plea guilty in court...that's why I specifically said "if she did it" in my post. If you're innocent, then by all means get a lawyer and fight tooth and nail. Not counting all those "crooked cops" that Minpin is worried about, LEO's want to see guilty people punished. I can't imagine what kind of a psychological impact it would have on me if my work led to an innocent person going to jail.

And, Daz is absolutely correct when he says that the criminal justice system has been bastardized by the misuse of defense lawyers. They're supposed to be there to make sure that innocent people aren't wrongfully conficted of crimes. That's not how they're used, though. Just like was said, they're there more often than not so that guilty people don't have to face the consequences of their actions.

[Minpin]

Daz, you're always the voice of reason around here.

First and foremost, I'd never advocate that an innocent person plea guilty in court...that's why I specifically said "if she did it" in my post. If you're innocent, then by all means get a lawyer and fight tooth and nail. Not counting all those "crooked cops" that Minpin is worried about, LEO's want to see guilty people punished. I can't imagine what kind of a psychological impact it would have on me if my work led to an innocent person going to jail.

And, Daz is absolutely correct when he says that the criminal justice system has been bastardized by the misuse of defense lawyers. They're supposed to be there to make sure that innocent people aren't wrongfully conficted of crimes. That's not how they're used, though. Just like was said, they're there more often than not so that guilty people don't have to face the consequences of their actions.

I'm not worried about crooked cops, I am paranoid about them.

Tell that to the officer that gave me a ticket for running a stop sign when he and I both know full well I came to a complete stop. As I always do because I don't want to get killed because I wanted to save 3 seconds. Of course who can blame the guy, he was obviously concerned about all of the traffic on the one lane back road at 2 o'clock in the morning evidenced by the fact he wrote "heavy traffic" on the fucking ticket.

Not to mention that thread that I think rohan posted about all of the crooked cops in Detroit.

My general logic is to be wary of everyone in power, regardless of who or what they do. 

I just don't trust many people. 

[bing_oh]

I'm not worried about crooked cops, I am paranoid about them.

para?noia 
Pronunciation: \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
Date: circa 1811
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Hey, you said it...

[Minpin]

para?noia 
Pronunciation: \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
Date: circa 1811
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Hey, you said it...

Right, well tell me this. Have you ever written an unhonest ticket or arrested someone unfairly because you were having a bad day?


Actually don't answer, these cop arguments never go anywhere. The police and a few others go to one side and everyone else to another.

Why is that? We shouldn't distrust the people who are protecting us should we? What has happened that has made the majority of non-officers not trust officers? Is it the way the system works? Does it need to be reformed?


And finally...Do officers have too much power?

Many questions I know, I don't really care for an answer to any of them. We all know what the answers are, but that's just the way things are, right?

[bing_oh]

Right, well tell me this. Have you ever written an unhonest ticket or arrested someone unfairly because you were having a bad day?

No. I don't imagine that you'll believe that, but that's your problem, not mine. The oath I took to protect, defend, and uphold the law and the Constitution is still important to me after 10 years as a cop. If it wasn't, I'd be doing something alot easier for alot more money.

Why is that? We shouldn't distrust the people who are protecting us should we? What has happened that has made the majority of non-officers not trust officers? Is it the way the system works? Does it need to be reformed?

Because we live in a democracy with a healthy fear of totalitarian rule. It doesn't matter what "reforms" you make to the system, because the public will still fear any group given the power to remove freedom. When we LEO's arrest people, we take away many of the freedoms that we as Americans hold dear...basic things like the freedom to choose our actions or go where we please. Even scarier, LE is a group that can legally make others to do things they don't want to through force of violence, even to the point of taking a life. We're talking about a group with tremendous power. But it's unhealthy to assume that power will be misused, especially when the vast majority of us in LE got into this profession and continue to sacrifice so much...from our own mental health, our family lives, and even our own lives...to protect the society we live in.

Unless, of course, you're wanting to examine the historical basis of society's mistrust in law enforcement. We can discuss the Old West, where many LEO's (even the most famous ones) were nothing more than hired assassins or men who used their power to further their own enterprises and line their own pockets. We can discuss the law enforcment of the Prohibition Era, where corruption was widespread. Or, we can discuss law enforcement in the 50's, 60's and even 70's, which was tainted with vigilanteism and racism. As you might be able tell, I'm both an educated man and a man who is honest about the history of his profession. That doesn't mean that I believe that all historical examples of LEO's were immoral and used their power improperly...there were many good men in the history of LE, but most of them weren't interesting enough to be remembered by the public in general. It also doesn't mean that I believe that the bad apples of history had a damn thing to do with modern LE...the lawmen of the 20's have about as much in common with modern LE as a shaman rattling his magic staff over the sick has to do with a professor of medicine in a large hospital. Times change.

And finally...Do officers have too much power?

No, we don't. Go south of the boarder into Mexico, Central or South America to see "law enforcement" with too much power. And then come home and thank God that you were born an American citizen.

Many questions I know, I don't really care for an answer to any of them. We all know what the answers are, but that's just the way things are, right?

Maybe you don't know all the answers you think you do. I encourage people to experience others' lives before judging them. I've been a citizen for 32 years, so I know what it's like to be a civilian. Do you know what it's like to be a LEO? To work within the system and to be frustrated by it? Have you ever even ridden with a LEO for a few shifts and seen things from the other direction, just to get the smallest taste?

Anyway, this is all way beyond the scope of the relatively simple thread that Morris started. I'll put away my soapbox and return this conversation back to its original course.

[sparkplug]

No. I don't imagine that you'll believe that, but that's your problem, not mine. The oath I took to protect, defend, and uphold the law and the Constitution is still important to me after 10 years as a cop. If it wasn't, I'd be doing something alot easier for alot more money.

How though should we deal with an leo who writes us a bogus ticket? Is there something we can do legally do we just live with it? We do look at law enforcement with a air of suspicion because we value our constitutional right to be free and happy.

Perhaps the law officer wrote the ticket for passing the stopped school bus because there was a gray area of the law that needed to be further clarified.

[bing_oh]

How though should we deal with an leo who writes us a bogus ticket? Is there something we can do legally do we just live with it? We do look at law enforcement with a air of suspicion because we value our constitutional right to be free and happy.

Perhaps the law officer wrote the ticket for passing the stopped school bus because there was a gray area of the law that needed to be further clarified.

That's why there's a court system. It's checks and balances, where the judicial branch (the court) makes sure that the actions of the executive branch (the police) are within the limits defined in the Constitution. If there's an intentional abuse of power by a LEO, then you file a complaint with his or her supervisor.

As for "gray area" within the law, you'd have to take that up with your elected representitives (the last branch of government, the legistature). They write the laws and they're the only ones who are supposed to be able to actually change it (unless you want to get into judges who legislate from the bench, and that's a whole other can of political worms). Until the legislature eliminates any supposed "gray areas," then it's the job of the courts to interpet the law post-enforcement.

[Rupert]

Can I get a real-world example of a judge legislating from the bench?

[Tave]

Don't worry about it. Evidently LEOs are free to bash on any profession they feel like.

[bing_oh]

Can I get a real-world example of a judge legislating from the bench?

The US Supreme Court has been legislating from the bench for decades. If you're looking for something a little more small town, I've got a municipal court judge who regularly ignores the law in his rulings. He has, for example, said that you don't have to use a turn signal unless there's another vehicle in the vicinity (and police cars don't count...as if a cruiser running into you will do any less damage because it's a cop car). It's a minor law, but it's still a law and is written in a specific way. The judge ignores the law in his rulings, thus legislating from the bench.

Don't worry about it. Evidently LEOs are free to bash on any profession they feel like.

Who was bashing anything or anyone?

[Tave]

Who was bashing anything or anyone?

I was only being half serious, refering to this:

And, Daz is absolutely correct when he says that the criminal justice system has been bastardized by the misuse of defense lawyers. They're supposed to be there to make sure that innocent people aren't wrongfully conficted of crimes. That's not how they're used, though. Just like was said, they're there more often than not so that guilty people don't have to face the consequences of their actions.

I've noticed a mild antipathy towards certain positions in the court system among more than one of our LEOs

[dazzleman]

I was only being half serious, refering to this:

I've noticed a mild antipathy towards certain positions in the court system among more than one of our LEOs

It's not only the LEOs with that antipathy.  I am thoroughly disgusted with our legal system, from top to bottom.

[bing_oh]

I was only being half serious, refering to this:

I've noticed a mild antipathy towards certain positions in the court system among more than one of our LEOs

Ah. I though you were referring to my coment about judges legislating from the bench. Yea, I was bashing the hell out of defense lawyers. I can count the number of defense lawyers I've met in my career I like personally or have any respect for professionally on one hand (with fingers left over)...the rest have been ambulance-chasing, conniving, weasely slime. The same comments could be applied to quite a few judges (or, as we call them around here, Lawyer 2.0).

Quite frankly, the judicial system is flat-out FUBAR.

[Soup DeVille]

Can I get a real-world example of a judge legislating from the bench?

That's what people say when judges set precedents that they don't agree with. Its often mis-used.

It really only applies to when a judge disregards the precedent set by a higher court.

[dazzleman]

I don't think it's really related to disregarding precedents.  Brown vs. Board of Ed disregarded a precedent.

I think it really appplies when a judge disregards law to impose his personal opinion.

[Tave]

Ah. I though you were referring to my coment about judges legislating from the bench. Yea, I was bashing the hell out of defense lawyers. I can count the number of defense lawyers I've met in my career I like personally or have any respect for professionally on one hand (with fingers left over)...the rest have been ambulance-chasing, conniving, weasely slime. The same comments could be applied to quite a few judges (or, as we call them around here, Lawyer 2.0).

So you ask us not to bash your profession, and then you turn around and bash someone else's?